>it took the Greeks 500 years to figure out adding more men

And then they got btfo by Romans with daggers

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>>1615926
>>1615934

>>1615926
they got overtaken by a maratime economy get over it

>>1615934
and the romans got BTFO by people with bigger daggers.

>>1615926

So historically speaking, what was the greatest melee weapon of the ancient world?

>>1616318
Axes

>>1616318
Round rocks.

>>1616318
Katana

>>1616333
this is bait

>>1616318
The bones of your enemy

>>1616361
>agrinarian axemen
>premier shock troops of the greeks had axes
>greeks were the premier people of the ancient world
>therefore the axe was the premier melee weapon of the ancient world.

checks out.

>>1616318
Spears

>>1616318
Bows and Spears.

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Ya call that a spear?

>>1616318
Horses

>>1615926
It's a pretty out there concept. Take that soldier in your pic-- on his own, he can hardly maneuver his shield since it just hangs off him and that spear can't be used once an enemy closes in to use a sword or ax or even a smaller spear in the same way a 6 or 7ft spear can be choked up on to fight closer opponents. This is a total disregard for the ability of the individual soldier in an attempt to make a stronger overall unit. This attempt ended up being rather successful, but try convincing a soldier to give up most of their defensive ability and use a spear that's bending over it own weight that can't be used in a normal fight.

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>>1615934
>BTFO by Romans who Zerg Rushed legions on them,
FTFY.

Romans literally played the numbers game on the Greeks.

>>1616793
Plus the maniple system was just superior to the phalanx in its versatility and maneuverability.

>>1616803
Nah. In Pyrrhus' wars, they already had the Maniple system and they still lost battles.

Pyrrhus - you see- was the last person to ever use the Macedonian Phalanx as it was intended (i.e. the whole combined arms schtick.)

>>1616820
I also recall that he adopted bits of the manipular system to help protect the flanks of his phalanxes. The guy's kinda underrated honestly.

>>1616820
You're correct, I realize now the discussion was specifically on the macedonian phalanx and not Greek warfare in general.

For that have the world famous Pyrrhic quote
>If we are victorious in one more battle against the Romans we will be utterly ruined.

It's a shame really. Pyrrhus was actually a pretty solid general. Any other time in history and he probably would've been a famous hero.

>>1616318

The brain

>>1616318
Sharpened Nubian cocks.

>>1615934
>gladius
>dagger

>>1617032
That's the joke

>>1616318
The M16

>>1616318
Gladius and scutum.

>>1616831
He is famous though, not the highest degree but phyrric victories are still victories, I'd rather be remembered for tragic victories than not be remembered

>>1616439
Minor thread hijack, can someone point me in the direction of good books to learn about pike and shot warfare specifically, and the 1500s-1700s in general, as I am an Amerifat and we just gloss over that area of history aside from >muh pilgrims.

>>1616318

The cock.

>>1616318
A rifle and bayonet.

>>1617219
Grladius and scrotum haha

makedonians are not greeks

>>1616374
Total War is not real life there was no such fucking thing retard.

>>1616318
Spear

>b-but muh peasant weapon!

yeah I'm sure egyptian pharaohs were such peasants

As usual no one on /his/ can actually answer why it took so long to develop a pike. You guys are fucking worthless in every way.

>>1617394
>good books to learn about pike and shot warfare specifically
Several, can you read swahili?

>>1617394
>good books to learn about pike and shot warfare specifically
Several, can you read norse runes?

>>1617394
>good books to learn about pike and shot warfare specifically
Several, can you read english?

How were Phalanxes capable of stopping and harming a shield wall like the Romans? Wouldn't the spears just get deflected aside as the ranks come closer?

>>1617599
I am interested.

>>1617592
>>1617596
>>1617599
I see someone bought the 4chan pass

>>1617701
They weren't. That's why Greeks got rekt.

>>1617851
The Romans didn't use a shield wall against phalanxes

>>1618034
They did you dumb homo.

>>1616820

Pyrrhus was born in the wrong time.

He would have been one of Alexander's top generals and carved out a kingdom for himself after his fall.

But he comes to power of a relatively unimportant state (fuck you it wasnt important) against a super power that could afford to lose entire armies and not give a single fuck.

>>1617701

The Shield wall would advance right into the pikes and try to push in.

The sheer weight of numbers and length of spears mean they get held off. The pikes are poking a few dudes dead. Anyone who breaks formation is skewered completely.

I would hate to be the legionnaire who was there just to keep the pikes busy.

>>1618034
This.

The reason Romans won was because that while they fought in an ordered formation, each Roman legionnaire was capable of fighting individually and his fighting style wasn't reliant on holding that formation with the guys around him.

The Roman combat against a phalanx was basically this
>throw pilum at Greek shits
>some end up hit, opens up holes in spear wall
>walk into that hole and get past the pokey bits
>greek shits can't poke you anymore, but you can stab them with your short sword
>repeat

Also keep in mind that it was still bloody work, but Rome could afford the kind of casualties that would ruin any other nation, and over time they ground down all the greek states who fought with the phalanx

>>1616318
the pen

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>>1618056
Rome wasnt an overwhelming force by the time Pyrrhus was around. It had trouble controlling its Italian Allies at that point, who were still pretty much what it says on the label: allied states.

>>1618072

It could still accord to lose a few times

Its why Pyrrhic victory is even a thing

>>1616318
real life isn't an MMO

>>1616356
>katana
>ancient
RRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>1618064
A maniple or legion could never tackle a phalanx head-on though, even at Cynoscephalae the Romans lost ground whenever they met it face-to-face.

Polybius thought that a well-formed phalanx was basically impervious to projectiles since the ranks after ranks of projected pikes could knock away anything that was thrown at it, and any time the Romans at Heraclea tried to do crazy shit like hacking off the pike points or rolling underneath them they just got easily picked off by the Epeirote phalangites.

It's not the capability of legionnaires to fight as "individuals" but it's definitely that maniples/cohorts could just break off into clumps and act independently. That, the rough ground at Cynoscephalae that broke up the phalanx's cohesion, and the fact that the Macedonian cavalry just fucked off meant that the Romans were able to butcher them when they started routing.

>>1616831
>Any other time in history and he probably would've been a famous hero.

But he WAS famous, big time in ancient world even when alive. Today everybody remembers him for his phyrric victories over romans but the romans lost more men than he did.

>>1618111
Good point, I forgot to add in the bit about the mobility of the maniples themselves.

I suppose I should have worded it more like "the legionnaires weren't literally fucked if they lost unit cohesion like the phalangites were"

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>>1616374
>>1616333
You are right with axes but your explanation is shite.
>Greeks got btfo by Romans
>Romans got btfo by Franks
>Franks used axes
You're welcome.

>>1616318
anyone not saying their own body is grade A weaponised autism

Weren't Hellens all over the Eastern Med adopting thureophoroi to support their flanks alongside their retardation of making heavier and bigger phalanxes?

>>1618142
axe beats sword beats spear beats axe

>>1618142
Wasn't the Frankish axe use just Roman javelin volley except with Franciscas? They threw light axes to fuck the enemy formation.

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>>1618062
>The sheer weight of numbers and length of spears mean they get held off. The pikes are poking a few dudes dead. Anyone who breaks formation is skewered completely.

but each spear is held by only one man in one hand, whereas the soldier on the shield's end is pushing with the force of the soldiers behind him too.

also the scutum is very large and curved and would deflect a thrust aside completely, the spears at the back held higher coming down wouldn't chop so well and wouldn't be able to be used effectively to stop him from rushing in further and attacking the first phalangites

>>1616318
my dick

>>1618519
They held the pike in both hands. The shield was attached to their forearm.

They also had three ranks worth of pikes pushing. If the roman shield wall tried to just push through the pikes, there would probably be a lot of pikes slipping through gaps between shields, disrupting the formation and allowing guys in back to poke them through the holes.

>>1617394
Start with the Greeks

>>1618147
>axe beats sword
No.

>>1617701
a) Busy them while getting auxiliary troops to flank them on the sides or back
b) expand the phalanx row-width, and expand the row-length in the middle and try to divert them to attack the middle, while have the sides encroach in.
Thuycdides mentions both getting used in the Peloponnesian war. Even though it seems like the typical phalanx consisted of 8 rows, with each row containing 8 men (so a total of 64 men), he mentions in a bunch of battles and skirmishes with how commanders widened or deepened their phalanx when facing each other.

sword op

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>>1619336
>pike and shot
>and shot
>shot
>start with greeks
nigga, early modern pikes and hellenic pikes were completly 2 different things. Only similarity was rectangle of guys with long brown shafts. I won't explain further because i'm going to sleep
cheerio mate

>>1615926
Probably because that's actually a bad idea in the context of classical greek cities with their awful cavalry and lack of useful supporting infantry.

Take an army in classical greece and form them in a Macedonian phalanx, and the shallower Greek phalanx is going to flank them on BOTH sides and destroy them literally every time.


You need several centuries of development of competent light and medium infantry as well as cavalry to make it work.

>>1616374
Except agrinains primarily fought with javelins.

>>1616831
He was literally world famous. As in regarded as one of, if not THE best general ion the Hellenic world. When people heard he was going to fuck off to italy, he was literally given troops by other rulers to encourage him to stop fucking their shit up.

>>1617701
According to eyewitness accounts, the pikes would simply pierce the shields.

Even if they don't, you can ground the tip in the shield and then the guy stops. You're not walking through the pole no matter how hard you try, and if you step back, he's going to thrust into you. On top of that, a long pole slamming into the corner of a shield can and WILL cause it to move, especially when it's just gripped in the hand.

>>1618056
Rome was considered a barbarian backwater at the time. A Hellenic general losing to the latins was what put rome on the map, as far as the Hellenic world was concerned.

>>1618064
>muh pilum
Literally every period account makes it clear that the pilum did fuckall to the phalanx.

>>1618519
>also the scutum is very large and curved and would deflect a thrust aside completely,
The curve is not sufficient to deflect anything but a hit towards the edges, anon. Nor was it always curved. Even chance it's flat, especially in this period.

>>1619336
The phalanx and later pike and shot formations bear only passing resemblance ot each other, anon.