What is Vatican II and why does it get so much hate?

>>1614164
Truculent conservative catholics refusing to have faith in the pontiff when it doesn't go their way

It's the capitulation of the RCC to the world.

the problem people have isn't with Vatican II itself, but with the priests that went full retard and took the liturgical reforms to mean that they can do whatever they wanted. That's when many parishes became "protestantized" with shitty music and acoustic guitars. If I lived through that era I would have been pissed too.

>>1614196
>That's when many parishes became "protestantized" with shitty music and acoustic guitars
Does music really matter that much?

>>1614196
>That's when many parishes became "protestantized" with shitty music and acoustic guitars.
Arguably the music was worse as they didn't have a long folk-music tradition.

Whenever a state loses a war, it signs a document saying it accepts the terms of surrender imposed by the winner (see Treaty of Versailles, Trianon). Vatican II is such document for the RCC. There really isn't a more concise way of puting it. The belligerants were the RCC and the World or the spirit of antichrist (or even the gates of Hades if you will). She had a good run but she finally fell. The date was 1968 (oh fateful year!). RIP.

>>1614199
Catholics generally don't care so much about whether the something is true or not so much as aesthetics and culture.

>>1614199

It's a form of prayer so you want it to be nice. "Christian rock" is just as valid as a choir as far as that's concerned but to me it's the difference between singing and screaming.

>>1614217
that just goes down to your personal opinion. I don't see why anyone needs to stick to one genre of music for worship. really it just becomes boring

I've always heard that Catholics were always mistakenly taught that none of the liturgy could ever be changed so when Vatican II happened there were a lot of poorly implemented reforms. Those people understandably became disillusioned with the church because they didn't know any better.

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>>1614164
Vatican II reformed the church to make it more accessible to people and address the realities of living in a modern economy.

It gets hate by ultra-conservatives who sit around bitching about the "good old days" as if they were there and could remember how shitty those days were.

>>1614172
first post best post

>>1614240
True but for me that stuff is the epitome of repetitive. You can only sing "Jesus, I llllove youuu." so many times before you start wanting something a little more robust. And, because a lot of times the songs are written by Protestants or "spiritually Christian" musicians, the theological component can get spotty.

>>1614240

I agree it's just an opinion but I don't think you're appreciating just how bad some music can be in a church setting where everybody is meant to be quiet and reverent. You have to draw the line somewhere.

>>1614199
Of course music matters.
It's literally the soundtrack to a religious service
It sets the mood and represents the philosophy of your religion in a condensed form..

>>1614196
>hat's when many parishes became "protestantized" with shitty music and acoustic guitars. If I lived through that era I would have been pissed too.
I'm a Catholic who does a lot of travelling and part of the reason why I like the RCC is because I know what I'm getting when I go to one on a Saturday, and I've never seen a Catholic service which goes full retard with the Evangelical crap like hand waving, "Mega" churches, Christian pop, and Bible thumping.

Occasionally they have a several people with instruments to accompany the choir, but during the service it's always low keyed and with hymns and never shitty Nickelback sounding Jesus-rock.

I love a chance to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvhYqeGp_Do

>>1614256
have to agree with you. I hate christian rock but I have nothing against it in principle

>>1614275
Jew? Jew.

>>1614278
I can't fucking stand it when someone packages their faith and sells it for profit. It always comes across as phony to me, even when an evangelical shows me a "good song".

As a Catholic to me there's music I listen to because I think it's quality music and there's music that I listen to when I'm in a church taking shit seriously, and that's a pretty big distinction. I don't listen to hymns because I think they have a snappy rhythm, I listen to them because I'm trying to think about how I could be a better person and they help put me in that reflective mood. If it were a song which I thought was "good" I would pay attention to it instead of the running monologue of the service.

That's why I dislike "Christian" music even in principle, it turns the church into the Jesus social club

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>>1614275
He is mocking you and your church (assuming you're catholic) there, don't know if you realize that or not, but then again gentiles are usually too dumb to get it.

>>1614336

It doesn't seem malicious to me.

>>1614328

>That's why I dislike "Christian" music even in principle

There's a place for it and that place is certainly not the church but it's not all bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_aVFVveJNs

>>1614196
Acoustic guitar music in Catholic churches was certainly a thing way before Vatican II.

For instance the first performance of Silent Night was first during a Christmas Eve mass in 1818. Tons of smaller countryside churches would use all kinds of instruments if they didn't have an organ.

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It was when freemasons took over the catholic church

>>1614199
Music by guitar can be really good, but if it is then it takes away from the actual church service.

>>1614328
I mean, most Christian rock bands are actually Protestant iirc. Plus the hymns that were sung before Vatican II are the same as those we sing now, but with a modern language and acoustic guitars. I don't think there's anything commercial in any of that. It's just sacred music made a little bit more accessible.

>>1614164

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWsgxCVYtAI

>>1614794

>vaticancatholic.com

Those guys are nutty as shit. Read the Wikipedia article on them.

>>1614199
Music is how Catholicism spread through much of the world. How do you walk into a foreign land and get people to join your religion when they are illiterate you you don't speak each other's language? Music. Everyone understands music, even if they don't know the language.

The other strategy is murder. Muslims use that one. That's something else people understand even if they can't speak, read, or write the language.

>>1614808
How?
Calling someone "nutty as shit" is not an argument.

>>1614664
>I mean, most Christian rock bands are actually Protestant iirc
That's what I meant by Evangelical. "Protestant" can refer to a number of denominations like Methodist or Presbyterian but an evangelical is the distinct blend of commercialized non-denominational Protestantism pushed primarily by the American right

>Plus the hymns that were sung before Vatican II are the same as those we sing now, but with a modern language and acoustic guitars. I don't think there's anything commercial in any of that. It's just sacred music made a little bit more accessible.
I'm ok with the Church modernizing hymns, I think that makes them more accessible than if they were chanted in a language nobody speaks any more. But there's a difference between a modernized hymn and "Nickelback ripoff rocks about loving God and rakes in millions from Bible thumping suckers who will buy any thing if it has Jesus's name slapped on it"

>>1614196
>>1614199
actually where I live (italy) we used to have acoustic guitars only at the sunday mass at 10 where there are families with kids typically
otherwise there's usually a guy playing creepy organ music or they sing acapella the usual traditional songs

>>1614164
Catholacism has got to be the most absurd religion.

>hey remember that homeless jew rebel from several centuries ago?
>yeah uh what if he was actually god and we should build huge as fuck golden cathedrals in rome
>god told me I get to be king of heaven and earth btw, bow before my throne and scepter
>if you don't like it we Italians will brutally slaughter you
>woah woah calm down guys it's all about love and humility dude
>buy this indulgence and battle my enemies or else you go to hell forever

>>1614206
Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!

>>1614835

Did that really look like it was intended to be an argument?

>>1614835
>Even before Vatican II was finished, I knew, and knew absolutely, that it was part of a Communist conspiracy to destroy the Church. The bishops at the council wanted to democratize Catholicism, they wanted an egalitarian theology, and most of them were secret communists and Masons. They knew exactly what they were doing. My community here was the first one in the United States to see the council for what it really was, and we rejected it completely.
>Regardless of what you have been told, John Paul I did not die of natural causes. He was murdered. Shortly after his election "I went into a kind of trance" and was told that John Paul I would be murdered because he wanted to return the Church to its traditions. He was murdered by his own. The Communist infiltrators in the Vatican and the College of Cardinals, working together with the Masons, killed John Paul I. At the same time I also had a vision of John Paul II, and I was told that he would be the next pope and also that he would be an authentic pope, even though most of his actions would be controlled by Communist advisers and manipulators in the Vatican.
-Joseph Natale, founder of Most Holy Family Monastery

>>1614949
Read a book on Church history you obnoxious child.

>>1614971
ho boy Catholic conspiracy theories oft sound even more absurd and paranoid than white supremacists.

>>1614172
This

Roman Catholic here, only ever heard people praise Vatican II.
Fun fact, mass it's difficult to understand when it's in Latin. The incense is cool though, I'll admit.

>>1614199
It really does, yeah.

Which seems more solemn and reverent to you?

Banal music based on secular pop songs like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvpjxfWrjzY

Or timeless chant like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpk4UUJ_hag

or the polyphony that developed from Gregorian chant:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLx3hzzIXhk

Contemporary liturgical music is just objectively inferior for use in the mass.

>>1615361
Also I should add that Vatican II itself calls for Gregorian chant to be the norm.

>>1615329
Ok you're not Catholic whatsoever, several things have you away…

1. Everyone has met at least 4 or 5 Catholics that treat V2 as a "whipping boy" and source of all problems currently in the church.

2. You'd usually have to go 1-3 hours out of your way to find a Latin mass, and they're not really impressive

3. No one beyond the age of 4 has ever seen incense as cool

>>1615329
Also no one says "Roman Catholic" anymore in daily conversation

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>>1615329
Latin is nice as an option for language but Vernacular does have benefits.

However, I'm with Mother Angelica: RETURN TO THE AD ORIENTEM SET UP PLEASE. Of the few times I've seen it, it feels more reverent and sacred.

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>>1615427
Not him but:
>1. Everyone has met at least 4 or 5 Catholics that treat V2 as a "whipping boy" and source of all problems currently in the church.
I haven't, but that's because I don't hear anyone talk about it positively OR negatively.

>2. You'd usually have to go 1-3 hours out of your way to find a Latin mass, and they're not really impressive
Linguistically it's just in a different language, albeit the Official Church Language. What you REALLY go for is both that AND the Ad Orientem set up for the Alter.
#BringBackAdOrientem
>3. No one beyond the age of 4 has ever seen incense as cool
YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH

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>>1615264
At least it's more somewhat reasonable than pic related.

>>1615433
Latin worked perfectly fine for more than 1500 years, I don't really think that there are any benefits to having the mass in the vernacular when the missal translates everything anyway. The Latin language gives the Western church a feeling of universality.

Also, now that Latin isn't commonly taught in public schools anymore the Catholic Church is practically the only major institution that still uses it - it's good that people are exposed to a language for such importance.

Agreed about returning to Ad Orientem, though.

>>1614206
>they changed the language and the music so the antichrist won
You know there's nothing magical about Gregorian chants and Latin mass right? They're not even traditional in the apostolic sense.

>>1614971
Wasn't John Paul I ultra-liberal anyway? Like, if someone murdered him it was probably a conservative faction.

>>1615500
>Wasn't John Paul I ultra-liberal anyway?

Not really, no.

>>1615505
He was certainly more of a reformer and innovator than a reactionary who would need to be eliminated by the Vatican II boogeymen.

>>1615468
Honestly Ad Orientem might help bring about a return to full Latin, or at least more Latin mass options.

Because since the Versus Populum mass is physically different in appearance it makes the Latin more off-putting than if we still did everything Ad Orientem then it would be no different than going to a Mass in Mexico or South Korea because then the only difference would be the language, and that's far easier to adjust to than different alter set up.

First time I went to an Ad Orientem Mass it felt like what a parishoner at a Megachurch with what >>1614847 described as "Nickelback ripoff rocks about loving God and rakes in millions from Bible thumping suckers who will buy any thing if it has Jesus's name slapped on it" experiencing an actual reverent ritual for the first time: it was stunning.

If all that was different was the language I'd just approach it as "yay, different language" like a guy who thinks Dubs V Subs is inconsequential.

>>1615521
Yeah, luckily there are people liked based Cardinal Sarah encouraging Ad Orientem.

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So, does the Vatican go out or their way to make themselves look as evil as possible on purpose or is it just a coincidence?

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>>1615553
They're just awkward nerds.

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>>1615561

>>1615544

I sincerely hope he is the next pope. He's actually willing to recognize the genocide of Christians in the middle east and he understands the threat that Islam poses. At the very least he wouldn't encourage mass immigration like Francis has.

>>1615553
God looks like a giant C'tan Shard figurine here.

>>1615574
>He's actually willing to recognize the genocide of Christians in the middle east
Uh, the Vatican in general has been weeping for Assyrians since 2013 at least.

>encourage mass immigration like Francis
Or Benedict XVI.

>>1615553

They know not what they do

>>1615597
>Uh, the Vatican in general has been weeping for Assyrians since 2013 at least.

Well that changes everything

>>1615553
No, it just has an aesthetic that was demonized as "what evil looks like" by American anti-Nazi WWII propaganda and Hollywood subsequently running with it.

Why is Latin the liturgical language, anyway? Surely it should either be Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek?

>>1615574
>>1615602
http://www.aina.org/news/20150412130443.htm
Pope Francis Recognizes Armenian, Assyrian, Greek Genocide

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/lauretta-brown/pope-francis-churches-united-condemning-persecution-middle-east
>Pope Francis added that his audience with the Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the East, Mar Dinkha IV, at the Vatican “is marked by the suffering we share over the wars that are going on in different regions of the Middle East; in particular, the violence that Christians and members of other religious minorities are subjected to, especially in Iraq and Syria.”
>On Thursday, Pope Francis also convened a three-day summit on the persecution of Christians and other minorities in the Middle East.

http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/04/12/pope_francis_persecution_is_the_churchs_daily_bread/1222155
>“Today, on Easter Sunday, just three weeks ago… Those Christians who were celebrating Easter in Pakistan were martyred because they were celebrating the Risen Christ."

http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/catholic/articles/pope-francis-and-mid-east-persecution.aspx
>Pope Francis has turned his attention, and the world’s, to the horrific persecution of Christians which has been steadily increasing in recent years.

Even fucking Breitbart can't hold its praise for him:
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2016/03/26/pope-francis-persecuted-christians-burned-alive-throats-slit-and-beheaded-with-barbarous-blades/

>“O Cross of Christ,” Francis prayed, “today we see you again erected in our sisters and our brothers killed, burned alive, throats slit, and beheaded with barbarous blades amid cowardly silence.”
>“O Cross of Christ, we still see you today in the fanaticism and terrorism of the followers of a religion who profane the name of God and use it to justify their unprecedented violence,” in evident reference to the Islamist terrorists behind much Christian persecution today.

>>1614164
The Second Vatican Council ran from 1962-65 and was supposed to bring the Church into the 20th century, or so I was taught in school.

I don't even Catholic, but methinks it's time for another Council.

>>1615553
Fear the Old Blood

>>1614199
ritual is essential to being a catholic and the messages about being catholic , so to change the form of the ritual's music is pretty drastic

>>1615627
Christians are so pompous they literally think an Infinite God of all time and space just so happens to favorite their ethnicity and culture above all others.

>>1615627

Latin was most common language so they just rolled with it.

>>1614829
>Muslims use that one.
ayyy. are we forgetting about the conquests mexico and peru, the imposition of catholicism by the spanish colonists and other such things as the inquisitions in goa or the wars of religion aren't we, senpai?

>>1615627
Because Latin was the language of the Western Roman Empire, and Latin has an important place within Christianity. Liturgical languages aren't simply what the scriptures were first written in. Church Slavonic, Koine Greek, Coptic, Old Georgian, etc. are all important to the churches that use them; Latin is the same with the Latin Church.

>>1615650
Bloodborne is such a ridiculously Catholic-inspired game, what with humanity gaining knowledge in exchange for tainted blood, people bathing in/consuming blood to keep away their beastial natures, and consuming the blood/flesh of gods in order to commune with them/become like them, that I'm surprised there was no controversy over it.

>>1614199
>tfw Irish Catholic
>tfw get to hear the ear sex that is the harp every Sunday

>>1615553
They guy who made that did so during the Cold War Nuke Scares and it's supposed to be Jesus rising up from the Grave of Nuclear Fallout like He did form the Grave of His Crucifixion.

It's still kinda ugly, but it's 60's modern art. That was usually pretty ugly.

>The movement for liturgical reform which had been gaining ground during the 20th century began to take effect especially from the 1960s, when most Christian churches with formal patterns of worship reviewed and revised their orders of service. This radical and continuing process has resulted in revised forms of the Mass, comprehensible modern texts (especially in the Roman Catholic Church, where the local vernacular has largely displaced Latin) and new pastoral theology which emphasizes the active participation of all present. This has stimulated a plethora of functional mass music using a variety of accessible styles, some popular and some genuinely ethnic, generally local in production and use, some with new procedures of refrain and response to encourage congregational involvement, often led by a solo cantor rather than a choir. Some of the most striking results come from Africa and South America. Since the 1970s much significant music based on Christian spirituality has been written (in Europe, for instance, by Messiaen, Penderecki and Pärt, in Britain by John Tavener, Jonathan Harvey and James MacMillan) but not settings of the texts of the Mass. At the end of the 20th century the requirements of a pastoral liturgy offered little opportunity for musical creativity. The tension between the liturgical purpose and creative treatment of the texts of the Mass Ordinary, apparent since the 16th century, may have fractured permanently.
F

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>>1615561
>>1615568
Those look like First Civilization Temples from Assassins Creed.

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>>1615668
>Bloodborne is such a ridiculously Catholic-inspired game
>Peice of media about Vampires has Catholic imagery in it

>>1615553
Holy shiy that looks demonic as fuck. I bet Satanists are jelly.

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>>1615936
The Pentagram was once used as a symbol of Christ's Five Holy Wounds.

Also, "Sedlec Ossuary."

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>>1615642
>Faced with disconcerting episodes of violent fundamentalism, our respect for true followers of Islam should lead us to avoid hateful generalisations, for authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence.
Antipope Francis, Evangelii Gaudium, Ch. 4, 253.
http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html#Interreligious_dialogue

Wow it really makes you think, huh?

>>1615936
>demonic
It just looks like a man freeing himself from tree/plant creatures.

>>1616006
Just because he doesn't want to gas all Muslims doesn't mean he's ignoring the genocide of Christians at the hands of fundamentalist barbarians.

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>>1616016
>authentic Islam and the proper reading of the Koran are opposed to every form of violence
>iow: "real Islam is peace :^)"

>>1616019
The crusades are over, interfaith dialogue and ecumenism is the norm. Get over it.

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>>1616019

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>>1616058
>Iraq 91%
Good job America.

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>>1616058
Hundreds of millions of Muslims are not real Muslims.
>tfw Catholics are the real Muslim (see Gaudium et Spes, Nostra Aetate)

>>1616067
>says the guy claiming billions of Christians including the head of the largest Church are not real Christians
wew

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>>1616056
>Rome will lose the faith and become the seat of the Antichrist. Get over it.

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>>1616084
>mfw the Schism will be mended in our lifetime
>Orthocucks on suicide watch

>>1616066
>people who are 70% evil and have the means to fuck with the US
>people who are 90% evil and don't

I'd pick the latter.

>>1616090
>have the means to fuck with the us
>Operation Desert Storm: 17 January 1991 – 28 February 1991
>2003 Invasion of Iraq: 20 March – 1 May 2003

They literally had no way to fuck with you before you occupied them.

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From an Orthodox perspective
>doctrine "anonymous Christian"
>Muslims are "esteemed"
>Baptisms outside the Church are fully valid
To name just a few things

>>1616134
What's wrong with the Anonymous Christian doctrine?

>Anonymous Christianity means that a person lives in the grace of God and attains salvation outside of explicitly constituted Christianity — Let us say, a Buddhist monk — who, because he follows his conscience, attains salvation and lives in the grace of God; of him I must say that he is an anonymous Christian; if not, I would have to presuppose that there is a genuine path to salvation that really attains that goal, but that simply has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. But I cannot do that. And so, if I hold if everyone depends upon Jesus Christ for salvation, and if at the same time I hold that many live in the world who have not expressly recognized Jesus Christ, then there remains in my opinion nothing else but to take up this postulate of an anonymous Christianity.

Even the Orthodox have to recognize that non-Orthodox can live in the grace of God.

>>1616111
This is true.

I mean, if it had gone from Saddam to what it is now without any of the whole occupation business, I'd take that.

But worth 5,000 KIA? Hell no.

But yeah, the end result is still an improvement from the US perspective.

IS doesn't have armored spearheads, or the oil for food program, or France and Russia wanting to end the embargo so they can trade again.

>>1614196
When I was a kid practically all songs plagiarized Bob Dylan and the Beatles but were sang wuth lyrics about Jesus. I doubt they'd get away with that today. Also, we went to kids mass in one of those new-fangled churches that were built in the 60s and 70s.

>>1615661
>Things that happened hundreds of years ago have bearing on what's happening today, right now.

>>1614164
>Guys, most Catholics are non-european anymore.
>And they live in the poorest countries.
>Let's accommodate them.
4chan Catholic who is most likely a lapsed white Catholic who doesnt even attend Church.
>REEEEEEEEEE VATICAN II WAS A MISTAKE
>MUH SOCIALIST ELEMENTS
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>1616134
>>doctrine "anonymous Christian"
See >>1616143

>>Muslims are "esteemed"
Insofar as they profess worship of the God of Abraham

>>Baptisms outside the Church are fully valid
Only if done with the Catholic understanding of the Trinity in mind. It's why Mormon baptisms are invalid.

>>1616143
That's because "grace" in Orthodoxy means something different from what it does in Catholicism. In Orthodoxy, "grace" is a term for God's energies, which all living things need in order to even exist. The doctrine of "anonymous Christian" says that non-Christians can find salvation.

>>1616807
"He who believes in God, but does not confess Him as the Father of the Son, does not believe in a god that is the true God, but in some personal invention."
-Theophan the Recluse
If believing in your own construct of the God of Abraham is enough to get you esteemed, then Pharisees are esteemed.

>Only if done with the Catholic understanding of the Trinity in mind.
But it's outside the Church. Sacraments are not a matter of perform the right ritual, Sacraments are performed by GOD, through His Church.

>>1615659
>Latin was most common language
No, Latin was a the language of the elites. It's use made scripture intentionally less accessible to the common man

>>1616846
Orthodox here, you're only have right. Greek was actually originally the language of the elites, Latin the language of the plebs. The Latin translation of the Bible was called the "Vulgate" because it was in the vulgar (which mean "popular" back then) tongue. Latin later on became the academic language of the West without it being spoken by commoners, and at that point they refused to make it commonly available (unlike the Orthodox, who continue to translate it). Why, I don't know, but the original purpose of a Latin Bible was to make it accessible.

>>1616853
*half right

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>>1614164
>What is Vatican II and why does it get so much hate?
They always harp on the new Mass and how the changes are allegedly irrelevant.

But there's far more to this. For example in Unitatis Redintegratio you read:
>the divisions among Christians prevent the Church from attaining the fullness of catholicity proper to her
Now, imagine it's 20 November 1964 and on the day after the Catholic Church decrees by a vote of 2,137 to 11 that the Church in Rome isn't Catholic anymore, because Catholicity is something that has to be attained.

Now I agree with: >>1614206 that
>Whenever a state loses a war, it signs a document saying it accepts the terms of surrender imposed by the winner (see Treaty of Versailles, Trianon). Vatican II is such document for the RCC. There really isn't a more concise way of puting it.
But there's a catch.

The target audience of the Church's evangelism will be the schismatics outside it. Meaning, protestants and Orthodox.

It's the "whore of Babylon" crowd that needs to fear the most, because SHE IS COMING TO STEAL YOUR SHEEP.

Now for further information this previously linked documentary says the most important things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWsgxCVYtAI
The documentary does not blame any group in particular external to the Church, and shows the incompatibility between many doctrines of the Second Vatical Council with two millennia of the teachings of Apostles, Church Fathers, and Popes.

They will even show you that the Lord Christ isn't the Judge of the Dead anymore in the religion, preposterous!

Going back to the new Mass, pic related is a priest interrupting the Mass to show a highlight reel of Association football player Gonzalo Higuaín during the 2014-15 Serie A season at SSC Napoli.

The new Mass allows the individual church to prostitute itself and the Gospel to local tribalism and soccer identitarianism, giving up on its universal project of salvation by becoming the vehicle of any message except the one that matters.

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>>1616878
The funny thing is, why Vatican II might have made the Pope and the Ecumenical Patriarch a lot more cozy, it made most of the Orthodox Church (especially Mount Athos) even more alienated by the RCC. If the RCC had continued to be hard asses, they might not have had such warm and fuzzy meetings with the EP, but there would have been a much greater possibility of theological reconciliation. Now reconciliation is completely impossible outside of every Catholic being individually received into the Orthodox Church

>>1616885
One day Pope Francis is working with Patriarch Bartholomew, the next he meets a female "bishop" in England.

No, you can't have the Greeks and the Russians in, and clergywomen too.

You can't have the Orthodox saying "The Christ is risen!" at any given opportunity, next to modernists like former "bishop" Spong that debate against the resurrection of Jesus, all in the same Church.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And this is what the "whore of Babylon" crowd always feared would happen.

The mightiest, richest, best organized society in the world is now going after your smaller church, and will bend over backwards to swallow it whole.

>>1616901
I wonder if given the choice would Rome prefer to swallow up the Protestantstairs, the Orthodox, or the "None"s if they only had one option.

>>1616817
It's Baptism though.

>>1616939
Which isn't a magic trick, it's God initiating you into his Church.

>>1616954
Yeah and it has a standard formula. "I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."

And since the Trinity is agreed upon by the other Churches that aren't retarded cults (Mormons, JWs) why isn't it valid?

>>1616157
300000-1400000 estimated dead civilians

>MUH 5000 PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS KIA !!!

Never change America

>>1616972
Because the validity of baptism isn't just the right formula anymore than parting the Red Sea is just making the right staff motions. Orthodox don't see Sacraments like that. There are right and wrong formulas, but formulas are not the source of a Sacrament, they are the expression of it.

>>1616817
There's also this kind of meaning of "grace" in the catholic intellectual adventure with the jesuits "efficient grace" and "sufficient grace".

Malebranche also developped the idea of grace as the ordinnary action of God mainting the world and its creatures into existence.

>>1617002
Grace, being God himself in Orthodoxy (God's energy is not created, but God himself in Orthodoxy), is infinite in all cases. The only difference is how you receive it.

>>1614949
I puked a little
Learn some basic history you idiot

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>>1616984

B team sequel