Who does /his/ side with?

>>1577417
...aaaaand I forgot to link to the poll:
http://www.strawpoll.me/11037519

The Achaean League and Philip of Macedon

fuck the aetolians

>>1577417
The ones who didn't fuck little boys

Friendly reminder that if you chose Sparta you're a virgin fedora loser who reads books from Nazis like Nietzsche

>>1577417

I'm by no means a hater of Sparta but Athens was clearly the superior state and certainly gave us more of value than Sparta did.

>>1577498
>>1577477
t. Helot

>>1577477
I chose Sparta because they were magnanimous isolationists, whereas Athens were just imperialist dickheads claiming it was about spreading democracy. Basically the Team America of Greece.

>>1577527
It's like you haven't even read Thucydides

>>1577527

Spartans were hypocrites too fampai.

Why not the hyper-homosexual Thebe?

>>1577527
that makes me like Athens even more lol

Anti-Basedmericans pls go

Persia.

Nah, nah, for real though Athens.

Athenian hegemony of Greece was actually a good thing.

>>1577619
Only if you were Athenian.

Sparta was on the right side of everything regarding Athens since the 1st Persian Invasion until it's fall.

Athens a shit.

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>>1577624
Sparta allied with Persia against Athens after being beaten. Talk about cucks.

>>1577691
Sparta won the Peloponnesian war

>>1577708
Athens came close to a victory, they rekt Sparta during the Archidamian War.

After Athens fucked up during the Sicilian Expedition - Sparta renewed hostilities.

Athens held out for 7 years after Sparta and Persia formed an alliance, eventually losing the Peloponnesian War.

Sparta had 3 versions of a treaty with Persia, which included as a provisio that Sparta would give up it's claims for freedoms for the Greek towns in Asia. Sounds pretty cuckish to me.

>>1577776
If I am not mistaken most if not all of those town in Asia Minor were sided with Athens.
Thus they are not getting cucked, they are cucking their enemies.
keep in mind nationality is relatively new meme

>>1577801
Sparta could hardly call itself the liberators of Greece then, this was pretty short sighted and ruined their well earned reputation.

Delian League = Warsaw Pact
Peloponnesian League = NATO

>>1577807
Athens were not liberators of any sort, though, so who cares?

Athens specifically subjugated anybody who opposed them, going to far as to sell all women and children into slavery in some cases.

There was no pan-national hellenic identity at the time, and the Peloponnesian War was not about liberating Greeks.

It was about Sparta wishing to remain independent in the face of aggressive and inhumane Athenian expansionism which did as much damage to Greek states as the Persians did - and in many cases even more damage.

>>1577477
I'm most offended by the implication that Nietzsche liked Sparta

>>1577827
Sparta hardly had the moral high ground. They had a huge helot population so that they could spend their time for military training while Athens had relatively few and treated their slaves well.

A description of how Sparta treated helots:
>They assign to the Helots every shameful task leading to disgrace. For they ordained that each one of them must wear a dogskin cap (kυνῆ / kunễ) and wrap himself in skins (διφθέρα / diphthéra) and receive a stipulated number of beatings every year regardless of any wrongdoing, so that they would never forget they were slaves. Moreover, if any exceeded the vigour proper to a slave's condition, they made death the penalty; and they allotted a punishment to those controlling them if they failed.

Thucydides wrote about the graduates of the Agoge:
>"The helots were invited by a proclamation to pick out those of their number who claimed to have most distinguished themselves against the enemy, in order that they might receive their freedom; the object being to test them, as it was thought that the first to claim their freedom would be the most high spirited and the most apt to rebel. As many as two thousand were selected accordingly, who crowned themselves and went round the temples, rejoicing in their new freedom. The Spartans, however, soon afterwards did away with them, and no one ever knew how each of them perished."

Face it, Spara just couldn't stand the fact that Athens was a rising power who's power with their Delian league could match their own Peloponnesian league.

>>1577531
I have, and I've also read Xenophon's Hellenica.

The Spartas, though they treated the Helots like shit, never did anything in the war like what Athens did to Melos. Sparta just wanted to maintain the status quo.

>>1577882
Both Sparta and Athens has no "moral" reason for war, and neither were particularly "good guys"
states were just doing what was in their interest

sparta wasn't nice to its slaves

athens wasn't nice to those who wanted to leave the "league"

>>1577807
Sparta was conservative (by that I mean trying to maintain the status quot). Athens was populist. Athens intentionally fomented populist insurrections, because they knew that the newly established democracies would apply with Athens out of the need for survival, since all the aristocratic states would gang up on them otherwise and restore the ruling class.

>>1577888
>Sparta just wanted to maintain the status quo.

Until they could have an opportunity to push forward Spartan hegemony

>>1577527
Sparta was only isolationist because they feared that if they left Sparta for too long to wage wars then the helots would rebel and kill their wives and children.

If they treated the helots better, you can be sure they would be just as imperialistic as Athens.

>>1577468
I've got bad news for you, anon.

>>1577916
he has to support sparta?

>>1577905
Sparta wasn't interested in the kind of hegemony Athens was (you can read Machiavelli's analysis in Discourses for more on this). The reason for this is because Sparta, unlike Athens, did not have, nor want a system, that allowed for mass-mobilization of soldiers. The military was to them, above all, a class, and consequently it had to be kept very small. Sparta did not want a military massive enough to occupy a lot of other states, because that would require enfranchising a lot more people. They eventually had to recruit Helots for service though (and they got freedom in exchange for it), to cope with Athens's numbers, but that was not a system they were enthusiastic about and not something they wanted as a paradigm.

>>1577908
There were cyclical pogroms done in the Helots, but otherwise they actually encouraged the Helots to be dissolute and get drunk, because they thought it made them weaker, and they showed their sons why the Helots were slaves: to give an example of them being lessor in nature, and thus deserving it.

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>>1577441
THis guy gets it.

Maybe the league of Corinth to

>>1577882
What has moral highground have to do anything, you anachronistic twat?

The war between Athens and Sparta had nothing to do with Greek nationalism (ie: the Asia Minor cities), and it didn't have to do with moral superiority.

It had to do with Athens being an aggressive and expansionist thalassocracy that had spent the 2-3 decades prior to the war antagonizing Sparta and isolating it by allying with Sparta's foes and by conquering everything it could.

You can't give Athens any credit as liberators or defenders of Greece by saying 'well Sparta teamed up with Persia' because Athens itself was destroying entire cities, enslaving their populations, and turning the husk into cleruchys.

At the end, it came down to Athens lust for an unopposed Empire vs. Sparta's unwavering desire to exist independently and without fear of being isolated.

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>>1577938
That's the funny thing, it's very hard to be considered a Spartan with full citizenship, but very easy to be dishonored and lose your full citizenship. They did not think this system through did they....

This is why they had to increasingly rely on Perioikoi's.

>Be Athens
>Win both Persian wars because Sparta is too butthurt to help
>Realize that Hellas' only hope for continued independence is to unify the city states
>Be Sparta
>Get butthurt that someone else made a club where you couldn't bully the other city states to follow you into pointless wars
>Trick smaller city states to rebel against Athens
>Get so anally devastated you take Persian money and ships and sell off the freedom of other Greeks
>Destabilize the region and fall into obscurity while the rest of the city states are steam rolled by the Macedonians

>>1577971
>be athens
>all of greece abandons you to face persia
>sparta stands by you

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>>1577971
Based Thebes, thank you for ridding the world of the cancer known as Sparta

>>1577964
They had to because of massive causalities. Spartan citizens were literally 2/3rds depleted over the course of the war.

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>>1577982
It was Athens who won the battle of marathon, where was Sparta? That's right ... waiting for a full moon for the festival of Carneia - what a lame fucking excuse.

When the Athenians rekt Persia, the Spartans became anally buttdevestated and realized Athens was fast becoming a force to be reckoned with ... sowing the seeds for the peloponnesian wars.

>>1577477
They were literally the good guys in that war.
Athens decided to go full imperialism, and the Spartans decided to stab them to death.

>>1578027
Sparta was actually quite generous to Athens when they defeated them, they just took down the wall.

Athens, of course, started the war up again as soon as they had the chance.

>>1577882
Athens also had slaves, anon, and treated them like absolute shit.

They also enslaved entire cities in all but name.

>>1577971
>Win both Persian wars because Sparta is too butt hurt to help
I feel like you don't actually know who was and wasn't present at platea.

>>1578039
I'm aware. Sparta was incredibly fair handed when dealing with any entity aside from the helots.

>>1578039
>Thirty Tyrants
>Generous

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Reminder that Thebes is the choice of a true patrician.

>>1578048
Taking down the walls of cities who rebelled against their league is hardly wrong. They knew what they were in for when they signed on the dotted lines.

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When the "greatest" fighting force in Greece is assraped by a gang of 300 homos...

>>1578070
Technically, Macedon did beat the shit out of everyone.

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Spartans were short and scrawny due to their starvation diet as children while Thebans were known for their large stature and clean limbs.

>>1578073
Yeah, no. Typically you could leave leagues.

>>1578048
>Be Sparta
>Let Attica and Boetia fall to Persia
>Athenians pull off another fucking Marathon at Salamis
>Finally only get involved after Xerxes leaves with the majority of his forces and you bitch and whined to get command of the Greek forces even though you didn't do jack shit

Nigga please.

>>1578075
>they're all wearing cavalry helmets
>thigh armor
>the spartan has no armor

I'm just going to assume this is ospreys shitty work.

>>1578088
Min explaining exactly what battlefield north of athens would have allowed a greek force to defeat that entire army and not just get enveloped and destroyed?

You can't, because there wasn't one. Especially not with the persian fucking fleet intact and able to circumvent any bottleneck to land troops.

>>1578098
>hurrr i'm a big cuckold hurrrr

literally what you sound like

>>1578079
BIG THEBAN COCK

Athens, obvious choice

>>1578098
>Be Athens
>Decide to hold off Persians at Artemisium with your navy because you are the only city state with any foresight to make a large one
>Peloponnesians were supposed to hold off Thermopylae
>Be Sparta
>Decide not to send the entire League to the pass because you only care about your club house past the Corinthian straight
>Only send fucking 300 of your own men with a King with a martyr complex while conscripting a handful of men
>get you forces surrounded because they are so small that a fucking goat path lets you get out flanked
>Get slaughtered and take all the credit for yourself
>Athens looses too because you only gave them fucking canoes for ships

>>1578181
If you're going to troll, you need to make the post consistent, anon.

>>1577971
>promoting independence by destroying independence

>>1578017
When all of Greece ran south to Corinth and the Peloponnese to escape the onslaught of the Persian Army, it was the Spartans who marched to the Hellespont to hold back the advance.

Athens failed to remember that gesture, or did not care, with the exception of Cimon. The last Athenian worth a damn.

>>1577814
It is the other way around,delian league was the nato.USA was athens who controlled the seas.
Pellop league(warsaw pact)and sparta aka soviet union was the land power.

This was the perspective during the cold war,examined by the americans so as to avoid doing the mistakes athens did.Many analogies are actually scary,like vietnam/sicily expedition.

>>1577531
But that is basically the entire point of Thucydides. He's vehemently anti-Athenian the whole way through. Did you even read it Anon? The Melian dialogue, Sicilian Expedition is all about Athens being nakedly imperialistic and falling apart as a result.

>>1577417
Whichever city-state I was a citizen of

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>>1578070
>Dude, what if, like, instead of, like, 8 ranks, we have... 16 ranks
>Dude, that's wicked but... we could have like 50 ranks
>Shit that's cool *gargles cock*

>>1577417

Spartans undeniably had the best banter.

>King Demaratus, being annoyed by someone pestering him with a question concerning who the most exemplary Spartan was, answered "He that is least like you."

>After invading southern Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again." The Spartan ephors replied with a single word: "If" (αἴkα).[28] Subsequently, neither Philip nor his son Alexander the Great attempted to capture the city.

>When an Athenian accused Spartans of being ignorant, the Spartan Pleistoanax agreed: "What you say is true. We alone of all the Greeks have learned none of your evil ways."

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>>1578636

>>1578645
I, too, meme to Dan Carlin

>>1578636
That's called oblique order and was utilised by a lot of successful generals, Frederick the Great made great use of it specifically.

>>1578645
Reminder that Sparta couldn't even defeat the Aetolian league or Macedon after Alexander.

>>1578645
>After invading southern Greece and receiving the submission of other key city-states, Philip II of Macedon sent a message to Sparta: "If I invade Laconia you will be destroyed, never to rise again." The Spartan ephors replied with a single word: "If" (αἴkα).[28] Subsequently, neither Philip nor his son Alexander the Great attempted to capture the city.

Mostly because it was irrelevant. Sparta would be forced into League of Corinth easily but Phillip was readying for a campaign against Persia and Alexander went for a campaign against Persia then went full Persiaboo.

>>1579261
More like they understood they had a very weak grasp on Greece. Sparta was a risky opponent - they had the most prestigious history in Greece and were still feared by a lot of the other cities.

A defeat, even minor, at the hands of Sparta, would have thrown all of Greece into revolt against Macedon.

It was much easier and much safer to bypass them entirely.

>>1579269
Sparta was a fucking joke. They were never important again after Thebes destroyed them. Sparta tried to fight Macedon but were destroyed every time.

>>1579323
Thebes freed the helots and gave them a city, Megalopolis, right next to Sparta so that they would keep Sparta in check.

Based sacred band of cum guzzlers.

>>1578079
Citation?

Any documentaries on the subject to recommend?

>>1577417
Sparta, all day every day.

>When someone from Argos pointed out that Spartans were susceptible to being corrupted by foreign travel, Eudamidas replied, "But you, when you come to Sparta, do not become worse, but better."[30]

>>1579660
Yes, read Thucydides you lazy fuck.

>>1577441
>Philip of Macedon
>Siding with a barbarian

Do you guys know about any examples of controlled oposition throughout history?

>>1579696
Link it or fuck off retard

>>1579799
>needs a link to one of the oldest and most widely translated and read texts in all of human history

why live?

And who posts on /his/ without owning a copy?

>>1578079

Height is set from the mothers diet and health (during pregnancy and breast feeding) and the childs early diet <5 y/o.

Otherwise all american kids would be tall as fuck instead of short fat fucks.

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>>1577417
>the most advance city-state
or
>wall are for pussy bro

>>1581264
But Americans eat shit food with no nutrition.

>>1577417

Sparta

>>1577477

I don't like Nazis, and Nietzche wasn't a Nazi.

>>1577814
>Delian League = Warsaw Pact
>""allies"" ruthlessly exploited
>you want to leave, you get invaded
seems correct

>>1581297
was greek fire just oil?

>>1579269
>A defeat, even minor, at the hands of Sparta, would have thrown all of Greece into revolt against Macedon.

Dude, Macedon defeated Sparta in 331 BC despite initial setbacks.

Did The Republic give anyone else the impression that Plato was a huge Spartaboo?

>>1579724
what?

He literally did side with the Achean League against the Aetolian League

>>1577477
Sparta was 100% justified

>>1578776
"Laconic Speech" has been known to be a thing since Sparta you moron.

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>>1578636
>Spartan
>Cavalry

>>1578776
>he wasn't raised on "if" and "molon labe"

t. fag

>>1583514

duh

>>1577417
the ones who didnt fuck little boys

>>1583514

Pretty much all the intellectual/alternative Athenians were Spartaboo, either because they wanted to be edgy or because they'd been tired of democracy giving a voice to all the idiots around them with disastrous results.

>>1583976
That's none of them

>>1584417
no that's Sparta

>>1584442
Pretty sure both fucked little boys, judging from Athenian court speeches and Aristophanes.

>>1584442
Pederasty was a big thing in Sparta, a part of the boy's education. It was even bigger than it was in Athens.

>>1584442
Uhh..... I got news for you

>>1584494
Not sexy time though

I can't access the source right now but Xenophon and a few others confirm this

It makes sense seeing how Sparta needed more babies being born due to helot pop and eugenics

>>1584635
If that were true it certainly didn't fucking work.

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>>1577814

>ywn know how a war between greek city states unfucked by the Peloponnesian war and roma would turn out
why live ;_;

>>1581404
yeap

>>1577417
Rome, faggot.

>>1579806
>anon asks for documentaries
>decided to sperg out instead of contributing to the thread

kill yourself

>>1577417
Athens was the only time in history when a democracy was correctly implemented.

Spartans were just homosexual slave drivers that couldn't even field an army in their own battles because they were so infertile.

>>1577531
>>1578463
Its like you haven't even read Kagan on Thucydides.

>>1577991
Epaminondas is the most based Greek of all time.

>Hahahaha how is defeat even real hahaha, dude just push the left flank hahahaha like dude just kill their king

>>1578213
Spartans have no moral high ground, the only reason they weren't out doing exactly what Athens was doing is because they had a slave society to watch over.

>Be Sparta
>claim to be the ideal Greek
>can't lead the Greek for any stretch of time before getting kicked out of the club for stepping on everyone's Nikes like a retard
>blame your own autism on the Chadthenians, send an army to "destroy them", only to have a spastic fit at the sight of their gates and turn back

>>1583514
Most writing on Athens are from iconoclasts, traitors, or written after Athens downfall by people already convinced they were stupid.

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>yfw you realize the Spartans were the good guys

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I'm on [sic] YOUR side!

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>>1589010
>Killing baby with defects

>Such as horns, hooves, curled claws, scales, catseyes, jagged teeth and pointed ears

>>1577776
>Sparta pussies out during the first Persian war, leaving Athens to beat Sparta
>They pussy out again apart from Leonidas and his 300 men, who were only a fraction of the whole army defending Thermophylae.
>This allows the Persians to take most of Hellas until the Athenians beat them again at sea.
>Athen starts to liberate Persian occupied Greek cities at the Agean sea, Sparta disapproves.
>Sparta then cooperates with Persia in the Peloponnesian war.
>2500 years later
>SPARTA SAVED GREECE FROM PERSIANS LOL TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL REMEMBER THE 300 XDDDDDDDD

>>1589057
Was transcending the flow of time part of your plan?

>>1589056
So they saved us from a demon invasion, nice

>>1589070
You thought they sacrificed peace and comfort and lived in constant strife for centuries so they could fight a bunch of masketta men?

>>1579799
>Link it or fuck off retard

https://www.amazon.de/History-Peloponnesian-War-Penguin-Classics/dp/0140440399/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1471901875&sr=8-1&keywords=thucydides

>>1577417
Athens. Republic, democracy, home of great art and philosophy.

Sparta was just a backwater filled with inferiority complex.

>>1583514
Socrates and all of his disciples were traitors who poisoned the youth with their nonsense. The only mistake Athens made was not forcing more philosophers to drink hemlock.

>>1577962
Nobody's giving them credit as liberators of the Greeks because they never claimed to be. That is, however LITERALLY what Sparta claimed to be, you know, until they allied with the Persians and signed a treaty that LITERALLY required the subjugation of the Greeks that were supposedly being "liberated". Hypocritical motherfuckers.

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>>1577477
>Nazis like Nietzsche

>>1577417
Athens of course

Democratic state controlling an empire vs Slave holding Sadist quasi-facist state

>>1589682

Why do you say "slave holding" like Athens wasn't a slave holding state?

>>1589665
m-muh ubermensch

First half? Spartans

Second half? Athens

Nicias' Peace should've been the end of the war, but Alcibiades was too much of a slobbering idiot to realize that his expedition was doomed from the start.

Granted, while the Sicilian Expedition was pretty imperialistic and stupid of Athens to pull off, Sparta selling out their fellow city states in the west for Persian Gold is probably even fucking worse.

>>1589010
Spartans were so gay they couldn't have sex with a woman unless she was dress like a boy.

>>1589686
Helots were very different than normal Greek slaves, don't play this game.

>>1577417

Persia

>>1577417
After studying this topic for just over 3 years now I think I'd have to say Athens. Not for any ideas of morality or faults because supposed hypocritical aims.
I think Athens should have won sheerly because of the fact that Athens lead progress and relative peace under their rule of the Aegean based Empire. By this I mean that people of the now non-autonomous poleis benefited greatly from the Empire, democracy the least of which, including the secured trade from the black sea (crucial for supporting the larger poleis with grain). Of course there are the examples of the subjugations of rebelling poleis and the harsh penalties set out by decrees, not to mention the famous Melian Dialogue. However, the sheer fact of the matter is that under Athens, the Greek world could prosper, although that may be under doubt under the leadership of the demogouges, its still beter than what Sparta brought by their victory in 404.
So basically, in conclusion, Athens isnt great, in fact its pretty bad how it treated the 'Delian League' through methods of control, but its still better than Sparta's status quo.

>>1577417
Corinth

Athens = The Federation
Sparta = Klingons

i don't know why people are being so harsh on Athens for the Sicilian Expedition. Sicily was known as one of the greatest places to get grain from, it was immensely fertile - probably second only to Egypt.

It was a matter of life and death to secure Sicily since Athens was blockaded on land, they had sea superiority and as such relied heavily on trade to feed themselves. It was natural for Athens to want to ensure they had control of Sicily.

>>1577417
Athens.

>>1589682
>Democratic
Not by modern standards, no.

>>1585383
We do. Badly. For greece. The successors were better militarily than the city states could ever be, and they failed. Horribly.

Playing various leagues and cities against each other would be absolute childs play for the romans, they'd played the same game for higher stakes with more unified opponents in Italy. And sure enough, they did exactly that when moving into Greece anyway.

>>1590984
Why didn't they try the Bosporus area? I heard their main export was grain.

>>1590012
>implying that doesn't make Spartans more based
They recognized male superiority in every aspect of life, truly a blessed people

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>>1590012
But male on male love was seen as very masculine, a middle aged man pounding a young guy and then teaching him about fighting was alpha male behaviour for the Spartans.