Post Protestant intellectuals.

>>1560419

Jean Calvin
Rick Roderick (not a Protestant evangelist/possibly not even Christian, but has a distinctly Protestant and biblically educated origin)

I generally only trust American, or early German and French protestant writers/speakers because of how much paranoia is involved in their idenitites, other christian writers tend to get into very abstract spiritual treatises while the good Protestant writers write their confessions of how it even possible to maintain a positive relation to humanity and God given the atrocities of the European wars of religion and the general American experience

>>1560464
Couldn't even do maths

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One of the best Christian rhetoricians.

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>>1560516
Maybe second best.

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"I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."

>>1560553
>Clive Staples Lewis
It just occurred to me that I never knew what C.S. stood for.

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>>1560535

>>1560419
Babbage, Leibniz, Newton, Kepler, Brahe, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Roentgen, Born, von Braun, Bacon, etc.

>>1560567
Leibniz believed in a spinoza like god not so much one of the traditional protestant sense

>>1560572
Protestant is defined as any Christian who isn't Orthodox or Catholic.

>>1560584
ok
i think you are right

>>1560584
Why won't this meme die

>>1560519
This is the worst

Anyone who places figures like Sproul or James White as intellectuals are only showing protestants as intellectually dishonest

>>1560707
What's the problem?

I am not a Protestant but Prot intellectuals include in my list
>WLC
>Jaroslav Pelikan
>Donald Fairbairn
>Philip Schaff
>Anthony Briggman
>TF Torrance
>Kierkegaard
>Paul M Blowers

>>1560722
These guys literally misrepresent the Church Fathers and history

The more intellectual Protestants tend to see Catholics as Christians and understand that the Church Fathers are a shared heritage transcending denominational lines

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>>1560742
>The more intellectual Protestants tend to see Catholics as Christians
No, my friend, no Protestant has ever thought that.

>>1560753
Actually they technically don't because they have no official statement on the matter

But the more intellectual types tend to see them as Christians such as WLC, even if they disagree

And this is fine by all means as such views enable actual discussion and progress to be made

>>1560732
Pelikan converted to Orthodoxy before he died.

>>1560765
He did wrote many of his books when he was Lutheran

Either way I want a whole High Church ecumenical body where all the High Church will become the new force against the rising tide of degeneracy

Desu Vult

>>1560516
I had to read a book of his for Philosophy or Religion course I just took. He's pretty good and he's a great debater.

Van Til
Rushdoony
North

>>1560732
>he bothers listing meme philosophers like WLC while omitting Plantinga

wew lad

>>1560722
He's butthurt they BTFO him
>>1560742
See?

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His podcast is fantastic.

>>1560516
>William "im not sure there's a God" Craig
No thank you

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>>1560553
Came here to post him. Good taste anon.

Why did the Christian apologetics thread got deleted?? Has reddit taken over?

>>1561999
Evangelicals had called men like Sproul out particularly on his misrepresentation of Augustine

DH Williams, an Evangelical himself called out James White and showed how he is in fact shows poor understanding of the Church Fathers

Too bad if you want liars and ignoramuses to represent the face of your denominations

>>1560426
Origen isn't Protestant

>>1562596
you took the bait

>>1562725
no

You took my bait

Now suck on it like the fish you are

>>1562547
I don't think there's any other option when it comes to representing Christianity.

>>1562737
succ

>>1562742
There's so many options and you have to pick the worst

>>1562752
Now kiss me

>>1562547
Brainwashed papist scum

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Marilynne Robinson

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Charles Hodge

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J. Gresham Machen

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R. L. Dabney

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Alvin Plantinga

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Petrus Ramus

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Donald Knuth

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Nicholas Wolterstorff

>Protestant ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''Intellectuals''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

>>1565308
You do know that protestant intellectuals are much more different than /pol/testant

>>1565336
He's just being a cheeky little memer, leave him be lad.

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Jonathan Edwards

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Karl Barth

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John Calvin

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Hugo Grotius

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Herman Dooyeweerd

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D. F. M. Strauss

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Francis Turretin

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Vern Poythress

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John Williamson Nevin

>>1565457
>Mercersburg Theology

Do tell me more about this

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Jacques Ellul

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A true reformer

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>>1565488
S-Senpai pls 0~0

>>1562342
He's a pretty poor intellectual compared to the others in this thread, he was certainly eloquent but not much else

>>1565488
There's not much at this point to tell. Scholars have only recently begun to dig into Mercersburg and the Mercersburg/Princeton, Nevin/Hodge debate in any great detail. Probably the best books available now are Littlejon's "The Mercersburg Theology and the Quest for Reformed Catholicity," D.G. Hart's biography of Nevin, and J.H. Nichols' "The Mercersburg Theology" and "Romanticism in American Theology: Nevin and Schaff at Mercersburg," these last two of which are very out-of-print. The former two represent some of the more current scholarship.

>>1565488
>>1565583
At any rate, the Mercersburg men were a bit more amenable to German idealism than the Old School Princetonians, and they had a bit of an infight that received very little general attention. Some Federal Vision/NPP types in modern Presbyterian circles have kind of latched onto the Mercersburg men in their efforts to draw modern Reformed theology into a more ecumenical direction with Anglicans, Catholics, and especially Eastern Orthodox. I think they read too much into the German Reformed theology, but agree with them on their revival of Nevin particularly with regard to a need to restore the high place that church life and especially the sacraments play in Reformed Christianity. Or I did agree, before I became an atheist.

>>1565583

fun fact: I know brad littlejohn. i live close to him.

>>1565615
Yeah, the confessional Reformed world in America is a pretty small one. That's still pretty cool though.

>>1565583
>>1565599
Thank you :3

I would try to hunt down some of the works you mentioned on the subject.

The only thing I knew about the movement is that it's the Reformed version of the High Church, or something along those lines.

You seem very steeped into these things. What turned you atheist?

>>1565648
>it's the Reformed version of the High Church
Eh, kind of. It's sort of akin to the high church movement that American Lutheranism had around the same time period. But it was pretty specific to the RCUS, the German-American Reformed church. Oddly enough, Hodge was also relatively well-versed in German thought, but tended more towards the realism and "rationalism" of the more Scottish and British old school.

>You seem very steeped into these things. What turned you atheist?
I actually was considering going to seminary to become a Presbyterian minister. I have a small theological library with some really kickass stuff, and as I like to browse used bookstores I'm always picking up whatever cool theology texts I happen across. As for what finally pushed me other the edge, I guess I just couldn't sustain my belief in the light of the way the world actually works. The Reformed faith, despite being much older and more connected with the Church Fathers and the Bible than most modern Protestantism, is still kind of fundamentalist. Regardless of the length of creation or the framework theology or the acknowledgement of metaphor, the Biblical account of Adam and the Fall doesn't make sense in a world in which evolution and death existed before the Fall.

Also, the more steeped you get into any movement, the more you realize that even the people who you admired the most are kind of shitty. At some point I had to admit that if Christ was preserving a Church for himself, it was pretty damn small and he was doing a shit job at it. I got burned pretty bad by every church I've been a part of. And, to be fair, I'm not much of a people person in the first place, so sometimes the expectations placed on you which others find so easy are pretty much dealbreakers. No matter how holy you are, if you're not a married Republican dudebro type who really hates teh gheyz, you're pretty much persona non grata.

Also, I'm on fucking 4chan. Obviously there's something wrong with me.

>>1565696
>the Biblical account of Adam and the Fall doesn't make sense in a world in which evolution and death existed before the Fall
But muh metaphors... No seriously. How would you respond to a Christian that claimed Adam and Eve is just a metaphor and the bible only applies to things that pertain to salvation (like some Lutheran dude did this morning)?

>>1565696
Interesting, I guess I can somewhat relate.

Circumstances prevented me from actually going deeper into the whole realm of theology and religious studies which is something I do hope I can get a degree in sometime in the future.

Personally, I am more agnostic. On one hand there's uncertainties in the Christian understanding of the world. On the other, I feel so uncertain on whether a god could exist. He could or could not. No argument for or against his(or its) existence could've satisfy me.

I personally feel any steering of theology towards rationalism can be damaging(not to say that reason is bad but at some point, the subject of theology must acknowledge that it deals with something even reason itself cannot comprehend).

For now I guess I am on the fence. I personally lean towards the Orthodox but I do share affinities with Kierkegaard and respect Protestant scholarship on the area of Church history

One day I do hope I can truly go deeper. For now I scavenge whatever free book I can download, because I am a Jew :^)

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Paul Ricoeur

>>1565775
At some point, if you are going to take the Bible seriously, you have to accept that it is a story of fall and redemption. I would readily admit that it is not a science textbook and that the Genesis narrative is not intended to lay out the mechanics of creation. However, if death entered the world through the Fall, the Bible falls apart. And if the Bible isn't the story of how mankind is saved from the Fall, sin, and death, then it is entirely meaningless. There's plenty of metaphor in the Bible, no doubt. But if you make the main arc of the Bible itself a metaphor, then it is a metaphor of nothing at all, and there is no reason to accept it as anything other than literature which has had a profound effect on human history, but nothing on which to base your own beliefs.

>>1565795
I won't try to dissuade you. If you can make it, great. I couldn't. Also, I do consider myself agnostic, but that's just a form of atheism. I'm perfectly willing to believe in a god, and I am perfectly open to the reality of the supernatural, but I have yet to find a compelling enough system of religion which does not contradict itself or what we have come to learn about the universe. Christianity was the best, and still couldn't cut it.

>>1565816
>if the Bible isn't the story of how mankind is saved from the Fall, sin, and death, then it is entirely meaningless
I see. This would answer the claim (the last straw) that the bible only pertains to matters of salvation. Because if just this point is also factually incorrect (that death entered the world through the Fall, and according to some theologians, also corruption and change), if this too is wrong then there's nothing to be saved from, no redemption, etc. I never thought about it this way. Dammit. And to think that I was just making an effort to come back to the faith... But this argument is too persuasive.

>>1565816
I guess I can somewhat see your point.

For me though, I have only just begun. I do not know where I'll end up. Only time and what I'll learn will.

I do hope one day I'll reach your level

>>1565696
>Regardless of the length of creation or the framework theology or the acknowledgement of metaphor, the Biblical account of Adam and the Fall doesn't make sense in a world in which evolution and death existed before the Fall.

You're absolutely right. There are Christians I respect who believe in evolution, but evolution and Christianity are incompatible if you think about it enough, which most people sadly don't. Unlike you though, I'm convinced the earth is young.

>At some point I had to admit that if Christ was preserving a Church for himself, it was pretty damn small and he was doing a shit job at it.

Well, if you're an atheist you don't have any way of saying definitively that it's wrong to only save some. And if Christianity is true, then Jesus is absolutely perfect and everything he does is just. If you disagree then the problem lies with you.

>I got burned pretty bad by every church I've been a part of.

Sorry to hear that. It happens way too much. America's major sects of Christianity are watered down prosperity gospel, and Steven Anderson style fundamentalism. A good church is hard to find, but please don't judge Christianity by the people who claim to follow it.

>>1565909
>Well, if you're an atheist you don't have any way of saying definitively that it's wrong to only save some.

You have completely misread me. But that's okay. I've heard it all before. Pigeonhole away. This is a board about the humanities, not an apologetics board. I'll talk about what I know when it's relevant.

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Is he any good? How are his books on Christian origins, are they genuinely good or biased trash?

>>1562596
What is he then, Catholic?

>>1566533
His work on the NPP is worth reading I suppose

>>1566540
Technically yes(in the sense of pre-schism universal christianity)

Though most Protestants or the more intellectual ones at least will see him as one of the fathers all Christians will share.

>>1565696
>>1565816
This guy crashed into a Protestant "intellectual" wank circle and basically (albeit subtlely) destroyed Christianity and no one is even going to try to respond to him? Wew.

>Protestant intellectuals

>>1566533
More like N. T. Wrong

>>1566533
His NPP stuff is interesting and represents slightly more modern scholarship than a lot of older conservative Christianity. A lot of people dislike him but honestly, as an atheist with no particular dog in this fight, I find him much more compelling about the history of Christianity than I do the likes of Karen Armstrong or Reza Aslan or whoever the pop star Jesus writer catches the fancy of NPR and Oprah these days. His stuff on the historical Jesus and the resurrection are definitely orthodox and faith-based, but a hell of a lot more honest and less agenda-driven than those others.

I appreciate his chutzpah and his scholarly rigor. Even if he's wrong.

>>1566540
He's a heretic. A real heretic, not what the Catholics call heretics (Christians).

>>1560742
No, we do not.

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Thomas Bayes

>>1565775
That friendship with the world is enmity with God.

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Richard Bentley

>>1565816
>and still couldn't cut it.

What an arrogant person you are. Maybe if you dealt with your arrogance, you could admit that there exists a being manifold orders of intelligence greater than you.

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Gordon H. Clark

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Petrus Cunaeus

>>1568209
Islam, then. Got it.

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Pierre-Charles Marcel

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Dirk Hendrik Theodoor Vollenhoven

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William Oughtred

>>1560461
Kennedy was Catholic, you fucking moron

>>1560419
>>1560426
>>1560461
>>1560464
>>1560471
>>1560475
>>1560491
>>1560496
>>1560510
>>1560516
>>1560519
>>1560522
>>1560535
>>1560545
>>1560553
>>1560566
>>1562010
>>1562342
>>1565233
>>1565237
>>1565242
>>1565258
>>1565266
>>1565273
>>1565285
>>1565297
>>1565372
>>1565377
>>1565384
>>1565395
>>1565407
>>1565420
>>1565436
>>1565443
>>1565457
>>1565494
>>1565503
>>1565797
>>1568190
>>1568206
>>1568228
>>1568239
>>1568255
>>1568297
>>1568343
>Single, insecure Protestant feels need to counter common-knowledge that Protestantism is anti-intellectual and retarded.
Kek

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Leonhard Euler

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Siegfried Kircheis

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>>1560419
One of the best mathematicians
Carl Friedrich Gauss

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Bartholomaus Keckermann

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Samuel Morland

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Bortholomeo Pisticus

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T. F. Torrance

>>1568179
[citation needed]

>>1568385
>literal autism

>>1568672
Papists generally are

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>>1568479
>Georg Friedrich Bernhard Riemann was an influential German mathematician who made lasting and revolutionary contributions to analysis, number theory, and differential geometry.
>he planned to study towards a degree in Theology. However, once there, he began studying mathematics under Carl Friedrich Gauss (specifically his lectures on the method of least squares). Gauss recommended that Riemann give up his theological work and enter the mathematical field (but he remained a devout Christian throughout his life);

>>1568864
>In mathematics, the Riemann hypothesis is a conjecture that the Riemann zeta function has its zeros only at the negative even integers and the complex numbers with real part 1/2.
>Along with suitable generalizations, some mathematicians consider it the most important unresolved problem in pure mathematics (Bombieri 2000).
Putting the quotes because humanfags may not be familiar with him.

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>>1568385
>Protestantism is anti-intellectual

let me guess your a catholic

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Johann Gottfried Herder

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Reinhold Niebuhr

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John Pell

>>1569039
>Aleister Crowley
Not even Christian dumbass.

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Paul Tillich

>>1569067
lel

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Stanley Hauerwas

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Rudolf Bultmann

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George Berkeley

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Wendell Berry

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David Hartley

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B. B. Warfield

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Lyman Hotchkiss Atwater

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Robert Dick Wilson

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Louis Berkhof

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Greg Bahnsen

>>1569096
>>1569113
>>1569134
>>1569162
>>1569358
>>1569402
>>1569406
>>1569411
>>1569417
>>1569475
Autism, pure autism

>>1569488
Aww. Were you upset by >>1568672?

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William G. T. Shedd

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Ralph Cudworth

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Abraham Kuyper

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Johann Salomo Semler

>>1568175
NT Wright gets a lot of hate because his NPP is not in line(or perceived as) with their intepretation of Paul.

But the odd thing is, the whole NPP came about from the Lutherans and stresses the need for historical context when reading Paul and how the whole nature of Judaism in the time of the NT is not merely some works based merit system but one of grace.

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>Protestant
>Intellectuals

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>>1570427
>Romans

>>1570417
Honestly, the Lutherans (at least the confessional ones) have a much bigger problem with the NPP than the Reformed do. It's more the fact that a lot of the NPP controversy arose in more Reformed than Lutheran circles that it's more identified with them. Lutherans aren't working with quite the same categories. They tend to affiliate more with the sacramentalism and high church attitudes of Wright and the Auburn Avenue types, but they have way more reason to worry about the NPP's conception of 1st century Judaism than the Reformed do.

To be honest, this is always the problem when modern people try to read their own beliefs into the ancients. It will never line up because they were never asking the same questions we are. It helps to know what questions they were asking, but the usefulness can be fairly limited. It's kind of the same way everyone tries to claim the Church Fathers. Not even the Orthodox get them right.

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Augustus Toplady

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George Hill

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Israel Gottlieb Canz

>>1570705
I always assumed Wright is more towards the Evangelical end of the spectrum in Anglicanism, though he may just call himself that in response to the flak he got for the whole NPP thing.

So far, a lot of the criticism of the NPP that I heard seem to come largely from the John Piper crowd. More academic criticism I had heard is that the NPP tends to ignore pieces of Judaic literature that talks about merit.

But that said, I personally welcome the NPP since it reminds us of what you had just said. This is precisely why I strictly avoid apologetic sites whenever I pursue issues like this.

>>1570778
Evangelical as opposed to Anglo-Catholic, perhaps. He definitely has way more in common with the more Reformed and evangelical circles of Protestantism than with the more Catholicizing and ecumenical wings of Anglicanism. Wright kind of does his own thing.

I have a lot less regard for the "John Piper crowd," because they tend to be way more evangelical than Protestant or Reformed. They tend to know very little theology or anything about Reformed piety, confession, and practice, and look more similar to the megachurch movement and cult of personality than anything resembling historic Christianity. Wright has much more connection with history.

A lot of the infighting and confusion over merit has to do with differing definitions of the term "merit." It's kind of traditional in Protestantism to see medieval Catholic versions of merit in Second Temple Judaism. I would think that this would be a boon to Protestantism, as it shows that there is a form of grace that is not terribly Catholic in the earlier Judaism from which early Christianity was developed.

The main problem is the question of merit and justification. Protestants, both Lutheran and Reformed, see a dangerous conflation of justification and sanctification in the outworkings of those who promote the NPP.

I wonder whether it's really the existential threat to Protestantism that the Protestants worry about. I think not. Wright certainly doesn't think so. As I said, it's kind of a useless task to try to find one's own personal system of belief in the ancient past. Why would you expect to find it? Our own epistemological problems didn't exist in the first century. So why would you expect to find them there?

>>1569067

nice meme but Crowley was nevertheless an accomplished bible student as a boy, to the point that he lifted a verse or two from the KJV to pepper his book of the law.

>>1570444
>USER WAS EXCOMMUNICATED FOR THIS POST

kek this fucking board

>>1570840
Wait.....why would a secks magick guy he here?

>>1570805
Hehehe, same here. It triggers me a bit when I see someone on kikebook share a link to him. It is kinda sad that all these weird megachurch style worship and theology is the cool thing, even rather ironically, amongst Catholics.

The whole "merit" thing in Catholic theology or in Aquinas at least, from what I heard just means "reward" and the whole cooperative Grace concept is there to stress non-passivity of human beings in salvation or the process thereoff given how Catholicism doesn't see Justification as a one time event.

The whole NPP is not even a Catholic thing and it's formulation are done by Protestants. So I don't think it necessarily pose a threat to it. But, it certainly does remind us not to read current issues into them.

Speaking of the NPP, It seems that every account of the history of the Reformation makes the Catholic Church rather amusingly, react quite stubbornly to Luther.

I'd like to remind you two not only does the NPP involve eisegesis, but it also replaces the people Paul is actually condemning with Protestants