Aren't saints for all intents and purpose lesser gods? Doesn't

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>>1551721
Not really(unless you use that "you are all gods, children of the Most High" verse).
All their power comes through and is authorised for use by God, through his divine grace(all prayers and akatists are basically"oh, Saint X, /insert cool stuff (s)he did in life/, pray for us")
And even if were, it's be more like a mutant form of henotheism than anything else.

>>1551730
>All their power comes through and is authorised for use by God, through his divine grace(all prayers and akatists are basically"oh, Saint X, /insert cool stuff (s)he did in life/, pray for us")
yeah, but whats the practical difference?
Catholics pray to saints, just like pagans pray to their lesser gods

>>1551732
Do you know of any pagan being that draws all it's power from another pagan deity, while being a deity itself, and not being a nymph/nature spirit/whatever?

>>1551732
>yeah, but whats the practical difference?
>All their power comes through and is authorised for use by God
The practical difference is the difference between an omnipotent singular God and a plurality of weak deities.
>Catholics pray to saints, just like pagans pray to their lesser gods
The difference is that pagans believe that those gods have existence and power in and of themselves.
This is so fucking simple that I don't even understand why Protestantism exists.

>>1551735
Literally every god in Hinduism

Other than that no.

>>1551721
If the answer is yes, then Catholics will never admit to it.

>>1551737
>Implying Hinduism isn't monotheistic

>>1551736
>The difference is that pagans believe that those gods have existence and power in and of themselves.
this sounds like some theological bullshit to me
both polytheists and catholics do the same but catholics call it different

>>1551721
Wasn't this an actual problem in catholicism that was never solved, and the Pope just had to roll with it or else the converted pagans would've been less faithful to the church?

>>1551754
>this sounds like some theological bullshit to me
You haven't given any reason why.
>both polytheists and catholics
Actually, it's be more like, "every non-reformed church"

>>1551721
Not really "lesser gods". They're more like Demigods.

>>1551754
Why are you even here?
>>1551754
How has it not,been solved? The right explanation has been given ITT more than once.

>>1551764
were the power comes from is just hairsplitting and doesn't change that both polytheists and catholics do the same

>>1551766
That's not right, either. They're more like saints.

Reminder that they also believe in angels and demons.

Yes, it's polytheism, but they are explicitly forbidden from calling it that, so there is little point asking them about it

>>1551770
>hairsplitting
It's actually just a matter of your not understanding what makes a god a god.
Pagans and Christians tend to agree that a god is something that exists under its own power while setting other things in motion and creating the conditions of their existence.

>>1551770
>were the power comes from is just hairsplitting
No, that's literally what differentiates mono from polytheism.
By that logic, judaism is polytheistic as well, since we have a lot of examples of angels doing stuff with their spiritual power, under Adonai's guidance.

>>1551774
Is Islam also a polytheism?

>>1551777
what about hercules?
he was born a human yet people prayed to him
Wasn't he exactly the same thing as a catholic saint?

>>1551779
do you pray to angels?

>>1551782
>Is Islam also a polytheism?

Yes.

Yahweh was originally just one god among many, and that is fairly evident if you actually read the old testament. It was "monotheism" in the sense that they only worshipped one god, not that only one existed.

>>1551783
>do you pray to angels?
Again, no one has defined a god as "something being prayed to".
People have prayed to totems.
Does that make totems divine beings?
Some say the Kim family thing would be worship by some of the brainwashed koreans.
Besides, angel veneration is a thing in non-reformed churches(and weirder interpretations of kabalah, islam, and new age).
Does that mean angels are gods?

And i don't think people prayed to Hercules, at least until his actual apotheosis in later hellenistic myths.

>>1551783
You really just don't get the difference between mono and polytheism. A Catholic saint isn't a demigod because there's no such thing as a demigod in Catholic theology. Saints are just humans who were noticeably favored by God and acted in accordance with His will in life, who have been canonized. Certainly not demigods.

>>1551797
>Again, no one has defined a god as "something being prayed to".
thats pretty much the definition of god

>Some say the Kim family thing would be worship by some of the brainwashed koreans.
yes, Kim is the closest thing to a god-emperor we have today

>And i don't think people prayed to Hercules
You think wrong

>>1551787
>what is tawhid
You just want to move goalposts.

>>1551799
how does it matter if they are demigods or not?
both hercules and catholic saints start out as mortals and become an object of worship and prayer after their death

>>1551802
>thats pretty much the definition of god
Are you serious?
>yes, Kim is the closest thing to a god-emperor we have today
What about the Japanese Emperor?
>You think wrong
Could you provide at least one source?

The power of saints and angels comes through God. They are agents of God, but not gods themselves. You could say that Christianity is dualist because of the existence of Satan and his demons, but neither Satan nor his demons are divine. They have powers in their right, but only because God appointed Satan his adversary. The divine font is God through and through.

The role of Satan confuses me. What if he willingly became God's adversary to test humanity? What if he agreed to became the fallen angel out of loyalty to God, and still secretly serves him? He would have willingly vilified himself to serve God. Now that is loyalty.

They worship Mary

>>1551808
>become an object of worship
That's just it, though, saints intercede with the object of worship on behalf of the believer. They aren't objects of worship.
If you wanted to make a better argument you could bring in East Asian ancestor worship. That still isn't the same because the ancestor is the object of worship there, whereas Catholics are still worshiping God when they pray to saints as intermediary beings between themselves and God.

>>1551809
>Are you serious?
Yes

>What about the Japanese Emperor?
I don't think japs still seriously worship him nowadays

>Could you provide at least one source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercules_in_ancient_Rome#Festivals_and_rituals

>>1551802
No, you dumbass.
I checked across multiple dictionaries.
A god is defined as something which is considered divine of itself by people.
Since saints are not divine, but are only touched and filled with divine energy by God(remove divine grace from a saint, and he's just a man), they are not gods, no matter how you look at it.

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They are dead people, and cannot do a thing for you. They cannot hear you, answer your prayers, intercede for you. nothing

Praying to anyone other than God makes a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Anything, I repeat, Anything, that comes from Rome is not biblical

>>1551820
>Yes
You're just an idiot. Have you ever studied philosophy of religion or theology in a serious capacity?

>>1551821
>A deity (Listeni/ˈdiː.ᵻti/ or Listeni/ˈdeJ.ᵻti/)[1] is a concept conceived in diverse ways in various cultures, typically as a natural or supernatural being considered divine or sacred.[2]

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>>1551824
That's a big redpill

>>1551828
no, I am a STEM major

>>1551817
So in other words saints become your object of worship?

>>1551830
That's a pretty superficial definition you've got there, almost presupposing the nonexistence of gods that view themselves as sacred.

>>1551830
>as a natural or supernatural being considered divine or sacred.
Considered divine. Saints are not.
Sacred is kinda vague, since a lot of stuff in Judaism is considered sacred as well.

>>1551832
That isn't an excuse for ignorance.
>>1551834
No, not at all. They're not worshipped. They're revered and prayed to, but the only thing worshipped is God.

>>1551837
divine or sacred.
Pretty sure saint are sacred

>>1551841
So is "the ground on which you step on", the Holy of Holies, priestly objects, and the Ark of the Covenant.

>>1551839
Just face it papist, you worship them and you're practicing Necromancy

>>1551841
Pretty sure the reason the Church is pro-life is because it holds human life to be a sacred thing.
Does that mean Catholics worship every human being, or does it mean they view them as having a special relationship with their Creator?
The answer is obviously the latter.

>>1551848
>Necromancy
Wat

>>1551851
They're dead and your black magic can't change it

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>>1551858
by that logic, all christians are necromancers

>>1551814
no mary no jesus

know mary know jesus

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>>1551864
n the New Testament, only Jesus (Rom 8:34) and the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:26) are named as intercessors for us. No others

When Jesus died the veil of separation in the Temple was torn apart, signifying that the people would no longer need an intercessor on Earth. They could now approach God directly

We have to decide for ourselves, no one can do it for us,will (You) allow the Lord's death to pay for our sins or not.

>>1551889
but jesus was resurrected, right?
isnt that necromancy?

There's a meme in society of some kind of entrepreneurial post-capitalist industrial-scientific "productivity" thing, and they are expressing the meme because they are demi-conscious memebuoys floating on a slurry sea of currents you can only see if you zoom out
It's exhausting even trying to give an answer to this question. You need to like phenomenologically bracket every single word and write a book explaining that they aren't even people. They aren't even conscious. They aren't even having "opinions". STEM people are like robots with human skin stretched over them. To say "they are dismissive of the humanities" is implicitly to admit I think there's a "they". STEM people don't even fucking exist. They are a statistical gaseous nebula of random particles wafting across continents and periodically expressing junk they picked up along the way. Why would you even talk to them?
Talking to a STEMfag is literally like being some kind of Buddha, ascending reality, then coming back down and talking to bees who were dudes in past lives. I'm sure these bee niggas can be saved or whatever, but let's just wait until they're back in human form. Don't walk around going "BEES, STOP BUZZING, PUT DOWN THAT POLLEN, LISTEN TO ME ABOUT HOW EVERY CONCEPTUAL CATEGORY YOU HAVE FOR EVEN THINKING OF THINGS WAS SHAPED FOR YOU BY AN UNCONSCIOUS SLUDGE OF MEMETIC POLYALLOY THAT FLOWS IN PREDICTABLE CURRENTS FROM YEAR TO YEAR THROUGH THE HIVE IN WHICH YOU WERE CONCEIVED"

>>1551897
your church is based on satanic lies and deceit.

Total darkness.

>>1551925
I am a muslim and to me it seems like all christians are polytheists.
You worship the holy trinity, right?

>>1551929
God is one divine substance.
One.
This isn't hard to grasp.

>>1551932
so god jesus and holy spirit are different names for same entity?

>>1551916
What did he mean by this?

>>1550901
Catholics:
>I have an issue that isn't of the most paramount importance, so I will ask the representative at the store who deals specifically with that issue for assistance, since they were granted a small amount of authority in that subject by the one in charge

Protestants:
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE MANAGER, EVERYONE ELSE GET OUT

>>1551951
Didn't mean to quote the other thread, but I guess it's still relevant.

>Stupid fucking pagans, praying to their patron god of mental illnesses
>Now excuse me as I ask for help from the patron saint of mental illnesses

>>1551935
Not him, but it's one ousia(essence) in 3 hypostatis(persons)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQLfgaUoQCw

>>1551951
Catholics
>Look baby jesus, so helpless needs his mum-the mother goddess to look after him,lets pray to her

>>1551935
They're three different persons, but they're ""made"", of the same, uncreated "substance".

>>1551971
>Babies don't need to be cared for
I don't even know how this is supposed to be an anti-Catholic argument.

>>1551971
>Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed are the fruits of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

Now find me the part where she is being worshipped.
>Hail
An old timey greeting, just like the use of the words "thou" and "thee"

>>1551974
so like you and me are different persons, but made of the same, cells and atoms and stuff?

>>1551935
Yahweh, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are three separate existences that all share the same God essence. Three existences of one God.

Anyone who tells you the trinity "makes sense" or "is easy to understand" is full of shit. Even Thomas Aquinas' (possibly the greatest Catholic theologian of all time) basically said the trinity makes no goddamn sense rationally, but you just gotta take God's word for it.

>>1551979
The thing is, God isn't a material thing. Each person is eternal, uncreated, and infinite in this 'substance' which has always "existed". This 'substance' is God, I guess. It's like when you look at three cups of infinite "water' that have been there since the beginning of time. It is "water" in singular, but they're actually three distinct cups of it. Nonetheless, they're in unity due to their "water"-ness. There are not three "waters", there is one "water".

>>1551990
what about the greek gods?
werent they also made from the same immortal stuff?

>>1552004
The Olympians were the progeny of the Titans. They weren't exactly eternal, i.e., they came into being at some point.

>>1552013
isnt the same true for jesus
he didnt exist from the very beginning, did he?

>>1551721
wtf i hate catholicism now

>>1552019
>In the beginning was the Word

>>1552028
And?

>>1552033
>the Word was God

>>1552019
He did. He wasn't a human person until the incarnation of the Word.

>>1552039
>>1552042
so where was jesus when the whole adam and eve business went down?
was he to busy to come by and say hello?

>>1552048
>so where was jesus when the whole adam and eve business went down?
>and the Word was with God
>was he to busy to come by and say hello?
He was too busy being the engine of Creation.

>>1552055
oh i see
to me, it sounds much more like a retcon though

>>1552056
A new truth enlightens all old ones.

>>1551787
They pretty explicitly say that Allah is "The Unique", they don't even do a Trinity thing.

>>1551943
He hates smart people.

>>1552066
I think what happened is the the Early Church really wanted to push this new Jesus guy, but they also had to keep the One God concept. So they took whatever jewish mysticism texts that contained numerology about triple things, or different esoteric names of gods or angels, and retconned them to refer to their new Jesus mascot.

That's probably why at first there were so many differing conceptions of God but they kept being quashed as "heresies" and the next time a new version of the Bible was written they would gloss in some bonus Trinity thing.

>>1552183
Why are you using the word 'retcon?' This isn't Star Trek.

>>1552187
retcon doesn't just apply to Star Trek, but to every lore

>>1551951
Hindus think like that too you know?

>>1552193
But why use that word? It just makes it seem as if you're not taking this topic or discussion seriously.

>>1552204
It means to rewrite a canon.

The ONLY monotheistic religions are Judaism and Islam. Europeans were never meant to commit to one single god, it has always been a thing for eastern sandy peoples.

Pictured: A group of Catholics worshipping their mother goddess Mary

>>1552206
I am aware.

>>1552222
Quads of truth confirm. It is polytheism. Catholicism is just that peculiar. Catholics are forbidden to acknowledge that for a number of reasons. They're not the ones you should ask, you won't get a confession out of them (at least an official one). But the fact remains.

>>1552183
They got the idea of the trinity from Neoplatonism. See Proclus' platonic theology. Everything is organized in trinities. And the Neoplatonists themselves got it from the Chaldean Oracles, which they considered divinely inspired and in accordance with Plato and Pythagoras.

>>1552262 (Me)
Why trinity? Why not a quaternary with Mary or the archangel Michael? Or a duality with just Jesus and the father? In the Chaldean fragments there is a trinity of three "fathers". It all makes sense from a historical and philological perspective once you put the Chaldean oracles into the equation. No wonder it got "lost" and survives only in fragments.

>>1552262
>>1552280
>No sources
Read the sticky.

>>1552283
Triggered.

>>1552302
I know you are.

>>1551951
lately been thinking catholics got it wrong and protestants were on to something but this is hilarious.

+1 for catholics
which is also nice since I don't think I've seen too much effective shilling for catholics on here.

>>1551962
this is exactly OPs point, which I feel the majority of this thread totally missed

Why does God need a bureaucracy of Saints and Popes and Priests to divide the operation of his prayer / salvation service?

>>1552350
It's not for God, it's for Humanity.

>>1552393
This.

>>1551721
>Aren't saints for all intents and purpose lesser gods?

No they aren't. But they can become god, if they kill him.

>>1552393
Why would humanfags need such bureaucracy, seeing as Protestants, Jews and Muslims don't seem to need one.

>>1551770
>were the power comes from is just hairsplitting
Does this mean protestants believe Usain Bolt is a god?

If protestants believe that other people's prayers have no power, and to ask another person to pray is to worship them, doesn't that mean protestants need to give up on evangelization?

>>1552655
Asking a dead person for anything is communicating with the dead, which isn't allowed. This is especially true if you ask the dead for worldly favors, which is essentially witchcraft,

Yes yes, you don't count physical death so the saints/Mary are technically "alive" in Heaven. That's a very nice justification, but there would be no talk of the resurrection of the dead if they weren't dead.

pure monotheism is very hard to grasp, and not very relatable, and thus any non-ascetic version of religions with a transcendental higher power tends to have lesser principalities that are closer to human issues, hence the trinity, angels, saints demons, djinns. In hinduism, the ascetics might be preoccupied with the transcendental brahman, but the vedic gods are still recognized because they're popular with the gentry, and are considered incarnations of the divine one. Buddhism is fundamentally atheist, but Gautama knew better than to deny the folk their more relatable conceptions of the divine. Abrahamic religions might have gone the same route, accepting pagan deities as manifestation of the divine, and it wouldve happened if it wasnt for the whole "Yawveh is jealous and hates infidels" thing.

Post above is essentially correct. Catholics think that semantics fool anyone but themselves (does it though?)

>>1552582
None of those groups are saved :^) hence the need

>>1551721
>Aren't saints for all intents and purpose lesser gods?
no you stupid proddy
if anything its more like Roman Ancestor worship

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>When a Proddy talks about theology

>>1551814
Abrahamic faiths seriously need some Goddess worship.

It's so fucking boring compared to polytheism.

>>1551869
Blasphemy

>>1551951
>1 Timothy 2:5
PAPISTS BTFO

>>1551978
I'm afraid you're plain retarded if you think hail in this context is a greeting

>>1552222
>The ONLY monotheistic religions are Judaism and Islam.
Hey rabbi, watcha doin?

>>1552262
Burn at the stake, please

>>1552772
>boring
Religion isn't television, it isn't meant to entertain. Its purpose is the salvation of the soul. Its social function is the transmission of values.

I'm not even religious but

>compose and canonize the Bible
>then ignore it

Catholics are some of the biggest morons in all of religion.

>>1552863
What exactly is it that Catholics ignore?

>>1552393
Maybe it's nepotism, monks who did God's grunt work on earth get cushy govt. jobs up in Heaven.

>>1552857
Technically the entire purpose of religion is to entertain the mind.

>>1552901
For example that thing about Jesus being the only mediator with God, not Mary and Saints and whatever.

>>1552947
Catholics get around that by calling it "intercession" instead of "mediation," though how they get around calling Mary Mediatrix I have no idea how they get away with.

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>>1552962
they wont get away with.

>>1551735
Have you ever researched pre-monotheistic Judaism? Know where YHVH starts out? Also Zoroastrianism does the same thing, the orthodox version codified under the Sassanid Persians basically incorporated every Aryan pagan god as Saints and chosen messengers of Ahura Mazda.

>>1551721
No and no

>>1553051
B-but the difference is that their fairy tales are false and ours are true!

>>1553153
Considering they're all the same one of them must be true. Hence false gods and pagans

>>1551735
>Do you know of any pagan being that draws all it's power from another pagan deity, while being a deity itself, and not being a nymph/nature spirit/whatever?

Yes, I do: it's called the Celestrial Bureaucracy, a concept found in Chinese folk religions and Taosim/Buddhism, to an extent.

Beings that draw their power from a higher deity while being minor deities themselves.

>>1553245
>celestial bureaucracy
Reminder that primitive Yahwehism was just like that.

>Psalm 82:1

God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment.

http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/

B-but muh monotheism!
Muh one true God!

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>>1553563
Interesting: is that why the word Elohim is used in certain parts of the early Hebrew Bible? 'Elohim', which can is plural, and could certainly have referred to 'the [council of] gods' rather than 'God'.

>>1553577
There's a passage where an angel is talking to one of the old testament prophets and he says that he has to fight an angel of Persia

>>1552788
Why?

>>1552946
>all religions are the same

>>1552962
Have you actually looked into Catholic reasons for that or do you just reeeeeee like an Evangelical Protestant who's church is next to a landromat in a strip mall and looks more like an AA meeting rather than worship of the divine?

>>1553593
Verse?

>>1551787
How?

>>1553623
Daniel 10 or something

>>1553618
Lel that's what papist churches look like where i live

>>1553593

>Man, what are you complaining about? You are the third Prophet to whom I had to talk today, and I must be in Persia by the night to brawl with another Angel! And I have heard that that motherfucker is the Champion of Media!

>>1553659
And where is that? Because Catholics kinda require a particular design to Churches that a lot in a strip mall would never qualify as.

>>1553656
The angel of Persia was one of God's angels tasked with overseeing Persia for whatever purpose. It's not another god's angel.

>>1553702
Mississippi. The only papist church near me is in a strip mall with Mexicans standing around it

>>1553717
You sure

>>1553765
Kinda what Dan 10 says. He only left when another Angel came for backup.

There are entire choirs of angels known dominions, powers and principalities.

>>1553762
Google maps it.

>>1553051
Zoroastrians claim to be monotheists.

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>>1553702
This shit right here is a Roman Catholic church.

>>1553801
Ugly modernist designs aren't universal or even well liked by most Catholics. But that's just the exterior. What's the Sanctuary layout?

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>>1553813

>>1553813
>Ugly modernist designs aren't universal

And Protestant churches being in stripmall is?

>>1553816
The hell is that in the center? A stairwell?

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>>1553821
Yes.

>>1553821
They aren't universal to Catholics.

To Protestants they're all the rage.

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>>1553833
Really now?

>>1553821
>>1553833
I went to a Protestant service and they had kids sing 'Blinded By the Light' by Manfred Mann.

If you don't understand, check out the lyrics.

>>1553833

I've never seen a protestant church like that in my entire life, that must be some American thing. Then again if it's American it's already shit regardless of denomination.

>>1553840
>Catholics-Coca Cola Classic
>Anglicans-Caffiene Free Store brand Cola
>Presbyterians- Surgar Free Diet Caffiene Free Store Brand Cola

>>1553816
what the fuck, are they trying to summon nyarlathotep

>>1553855
>Orthodox - Water and no fucking diabetes

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>>1553858
More Catholic abominations incoming

>>1553868
Nah, pepsi for orthos would much better.

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>>1553875

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>>1553889

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>>1553905

>>1553875
>>1553889
Most Catholics don't like modernist churches.

Hell I can't believe we bought the Crystal Cathedral from whatever Prot owned it but went bankrupt.

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>>1553910

>>1553905
>>1553910
First Civilization buildings from Assassins Creed?

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>>1551858
>>1551848

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>>1553920

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>>1553927

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>>1553936

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>>1553944

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>>1553951

>>1553951
Is that supposed to be a Baptismal font?

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>>1553957
And this gotta be my personal favorite.

>my denomination is the One True Church than yours because the aesthetics of the architecture are better
Could you all be any more obvious about the fact that this is all just cultural LARPing and nobody actually believes in anything?

>>1553978
The only reason we bring up aesthetics of the sanctuary is because they reflect approach to the Divine.

Post Modernist Catholic churches are a statistical outlier anyway.

>>1554000
Postmodernist Protestant churches are an outlier too.

>>1554021
Considering all the denominations that involve a megachurches as the main thing, it becomes far more common among them.

The more iconoclastic and casual you get with faith, the more your sanctuary becomes modernist crap and "church" is going to a movie theater and waxing poetic to stereotypical Jesus talk and singing Josh Groban songs.

I once went to one of those in curiosity to see how crap it was. It nauseated me with how feel-good Hallmark card it was.

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>>1554058
No, it's specifically AMERICAN. Megachurches don't really exist in Europe and most of our Protestant churches look like this.

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>>1554108
Hence why I actually prefer European Protestants to American ones because it leaves you guys have some semblance of sanity. Heretics as you are at least you don't believe half the bullshit in Chick Tracts.

>>1551721
Do Catholics pray to the saints? I don't understand this, I'm pretty positive Jesus Christ is all the intercessory you'll ever need.

Not judging any Catholics btw, not even trolling, just curious.

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>Christians constantly brag about being above worldly concerns
>bickering about who's buildings look cuter

>>1554143
Pretty much.
While it gets rarer and rarer (in europe at least) Saint worship got a high in medieval times were people used to pray among bones of saints which they considered to e soaked with holy energy that healed illness, while all kinds of attributes were given to them.
You have saints for rat plagues, headaches, burn wounds, climbing accidents etc and they all have buttons of designated little extra prayers too.

Now that catholicism is dying the believers that are left often practize a more sterile form withhout all the folk beliefs and saint-prayers/pilgrimages to their sites.

>>1553782
He left when another one of gods angels came. Why would he fight an angel on his team so to speak

>>1554058
Those are a rarity here too

>>1554164
I see..

It's strange how we always find ourselves doing things like this. Moses disappears for a few, the people immediately build a golden cow...it's like the process repeats itself in so many different ways. Abraham himself put his son Issac in the part of his heart where God should have been. God commanded a sacrifice, Abraham was hurt because he thought God wanted him to shed Isaac's blood, when God just wanted Abraham to remove Issac from God's place in Abraham's heart. All to make Abraham stronger. If God did nothing and let Issac occupy most Abraham's heart, if anything happened to Issac, Abraham would have been crushed beyond repair. Probably would have forfeited his participation for a people like Israel, all out of grief. But by sacrificing Issac, by removing him as his idol and putting God back in his heart, if anything happen to Isaac, God would be Abraham's strength through faith. God essentially made Abraham stronger by making sure Isaac wasn't his idol.

Whether its sports teams though, wives, women, or saints, we always put something foreign and less powerful than God in our immediate forefront of our hearts.

I'll never forget this lesson that someone taught me. Like the man who has his wife as an idol. His wife becomes his savior, occupies God/Christ's place in his heart. One day finds his wife with another man, because she was his idol, as she goes he goes, so in her betrayal, he kills her and himself, all because she became his savior at one point. His idol.

All this continues to happen to people though because I think, people think, that God/Christ are less tangible than those bones of the saints for example, less tangible than a wife or what ever. With all that said though, these lessons are not in anyway easy to learn. I had to be taught them in order to detach from hidden sources of my personal sufferings. I had no idea why I was so miserable for the longest time. Thankful for this specific lesson every day though.

>>1554143
>I'm pretty positive Jesus Christ is all the intercessory you'll ever need.
Technically speaking, praying to the saints means literally and directly praying to Jesus, by virtue of the communio sanctorum doctrine.

>>1554294
>puts a fictional character more important than his family
>harbors a cuck/murder fantasy

lol Christian inversion of morality.

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>>1554164
>Now that catholicism is dying

>>1554573

>Catholicism, numerically, is now spics and niggers

W e w

>>1554573
Catholicism actually is dying though, Europe will be majority non-christian in the future.

>>1554058
someone post the mainline vs evangelical protestant comparison pls

>>1554728
still going strong in africa and south america

>>1554728
>only Europe exists

>>1554728
what will they be? muslims? fedoras?

>>1551721
Yes, of course. The Mother Earth cultists are neo-pagans.

>>1554736

>relax guys a bunch of niggers and spics still follow us!

>>1554333
>harbors a cuck/murder fantasy

How again is examining human nature, without bias, correlated with harboring a violent fantasy?

I mean how did you even come to this conclusion? Where is your head and motives at exactly that would prevent you from asking why people do the things they do? Whether they're noble or morbid in nature?

Is it hard to understand that when a man is filled with jealous he can become murderous? Is that a connection you're unable to make?

Why would you think because you can't understand that connection, that no one could understand that connection?

>>1554756
Non believers. Science only reaches a black void of nothingness at the end and it's this void that becomes the non believers boundary. The Faith is what surpasses that chasm though.

But with all the falling away it ties right into prophecy, doesn't it? I havent read Revelation in ages. But I mean first comes the falling away, than a massive persecution at some point, right? I don't know exactly what that book says, but you do see God slowly being taken out of the picture.

>>1554810
>without bias

Basically withhold love for your family so that way when they betray you won't want to murder them because God says not to?
Is that what fantasy-centered life is supposed to encourage?

>>1554846
>withhold love for your family

See, that's not the lesson at all. Love wasn't the issue, the issue was the degree of possession and grasp Abraham held onto Isaac, the issue was covetousness.

The lesson is analogous with like, owning a pet bird and clipping it's wings so it won't leave you. Kinda morbid in nature, right? Creating eunuchs to govern your females. Morbid behavior, all to make sure your possession of the females goes as you desire. Covetousness.

The lesson is morbid attachment. A morbid attachment could ruin a man. If that's all that's in his heart, whatever that may be, if the man lost what he held highly in his heart, the man becomes susceptible. It's all a sign of no discipline that could be taken advantage of by evil.

By having God in that place in his heart, and not Isaac, Abraham essentially became stronger in his ability to be impervious to the temptations to act irrational, these thrive off emotional instability.

So If something happened to Isaac when Isaac was an idol to Abraham, Abraham would be susceptible to a harder fall. By keeping God in the most important place in his heart. God could tell Abraham, Isaac will be forever taken care of, he'll live on, he'll never truly die etc etc and Abraham, through faith would trust and believe God. But if something happened to Isaac when Isaac was an idol to Abraham....Abraham could become too distraught to listen to what God says, let alone hear God at all in general, if ever again.

So the sacrifice wasn't about loving Isaac less or spilling his blood. It was about removing greed, lust, covetousness, that God saw Abraham applying to Isaac.

When a man catches his wife cheating when his wife is essentially his idol, that's when the man becomes a tool for evil, all by way of his emotions, all through the specific emotion of jealousy, which is a sin. And from that sin of jealousy, comes murder. And this is why sin is associated with death, because this is where all sin leads to.

>>1554912
Also this is how idolatry works on people. This why God essentially hates it. This is what the world attempts to do to man, to get man to worship other things other than God, to detach man from his Father and Creator.

The world produces all the things to replace God in the life of man and does it's best to make sure the connection between God/Christ and man is severed.

>>1554912
>The lesson is analogous with like, owning a pet bird and clipping it's wings so it won't leave you. Kinda morbid in nature, right?
More or less morbid than creating a pet bird exclusively to worship your ego and burning it eternally if it doesn't? Is that covetous or not?

>>1554912
Well since there is actually no such thing as God, all this hand wringing about temperance and obsession comes across like I said as an inversion of morality, you shouldn't place devotion to fictional things above love for your family. You interpret the story to be about covetousness and sin because that's your paradigm for human behavior, but actually there is nothing wrong about expressing your feelings for the people in your life closest to you. To advocate letting them go so that you don't become to attached to your son or wife in case they die or cheat on you is pretty demented.

>>1554923
By saying that you're applying human's understanding of ego to God, the creator of all things. As if you know the nature and purpose of all this without a shadow of a doubt. As if God needs anything, especially from us. What if you asked to be here? What if we're sharpening our tools by being here, by being exposed to the purest of darkness? Because through all your speculation there are some truths, the truth of love and it's benefits. How accordance creates harmony, how accordance is synonymous with the human emotion of love. Sub atomic matter is in accord, not discord, otherwise nothing would materialize. Same when love is applied you have accordance, with hate and anger, discord etc etc Now God claims to be love, that none should perish, unless they desire to separate from God and be out of accordance then He has no way to assist them, I assume. Now how many people have true love in their heart? They desire nothing but the best for everyone, out of charity and not selfish gain, yet they don't believe in God? Do you really think they're going to be tossed aside because that's all as a human you can think an ego-maniac god would do? Why can't you imagine a warm embrace, like a person thumping themselves on the head as if to say, wow, you weren't only real the whole time, but I wanted exactly what God wanted the whole time and that the Creator was essentially everywhere and with that person the whole time.

Again, it's the evil in the world that influences man to see God as a sniper in the clouds with lightning as his ammunition. Smiting for fun and tossing everything into fire on a whim. If you've seen a genuinely good person on earth, how much more greater and gentle is our Creator and Christ?

Again though, evil works in the mind and does anything it can to separate man from his Creator and Father.

>>1551848
>Necromancy
>polytheism
>rituals

wtf I love Catholicism now

>>1553850
That's a megachurch or one of the megachurch movement's imitators. They're not particularly denominational, their entire power is the cult of personality at the center of them. You can't really call them Protestant. There's not really any substantive doctrine, practice, or piety. It's Sesame Street for suburban middle class white people, only less educational.

They also tend to be run more like corporations than churches. A lot of dodgy stuff goes on too. If your church's books aren't open, head the other way.

The church I grew up in started off as a Lutheran church but eventually joined up with a more non-denominational body. When the old pastor retired, the son took over and started megachurching the fuck out of it. I didn't like the new theater-style sanctuary they built, but I figured, whatever. The preaching got more and more watered down, they started showing movie clips, and the day I walked into the sanctuary and there was a motorcycle on a pedestal I turned right the fuck around and signed up with the nearest Orthodox Presbyterian church.

It was the best thing I ever did for my soul until I found atheism.

>>1554573
>who is francis?

>>1554788
>>>/pol/

protestantism is dying in europe too

>>1556368
Christianianity is dying because of the great falling away, Catholicism is dying because papa frank craves islamic sandnigger poz loads

>>1553888
Islam is Fanta.

>>1553951
ain't bad, desu.

>>1551721
No dumbass

The whole idea behind the cultus of the saints is that there is fellowship between the departed and the living. This is also reinforced by the communial nature of Christianity itself.

Martyrs who would be the earliest saints were already adored and seen as special by the early Christians. Because of their faith and deeds, they are honored and especially when they held onto it in the face of pain and suffering.

So the whole saints thing is,
A)Christianity as a Communial faith
B)Fellowship between the departed and living
C)Respect for the saints for what they had done

These are different from demigods and shit

>>1556444
>beverage created from fruit waste and other residue for making proper juice, created for defeated barbarians;
Sounds about right.

>>1556372
Catholicism has been dying in Europe long before the /pol/-triggering pope.

>>1556507
Christianity generally has been in decline in Europe.

>>1551721
Rome has a history of assimilating other people's beliefs, with changes. Like 4Kids does with anime. The changes assert Roman authority, but getting to continue practicing their old ways for the most part keeps the conquered peoples from revolting.

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>>1553910
This has to be the ugliest building I've ever seen period. It looks like one of Lovecraft's monsters in mine craft form.

Now the majority of architects are faggots. Faggots hate the Catholic Church. By making Catholics worship inside an abomination one could be getting revenge against them. Really makes you think...