Who were the Sea Peoples?

>>1549321
The Philistines were one of the groups. Most of them we're not sure

>>1549321
Sardinians

>>1549321
There's a really interesting new theory about this, just google Luwian Studies and it'll show up. Basically the idea is that the Sea People was a confederation of Western Anatolian petty states mixed with some Greek/Old European constituencies. I don't think there's been a whole lot of scholarly critique, but I think it seems fairly plausible.

From what I remember, you got the Peleset (probably Phillistines), the Meshwesh, whatever the Egyptians were calling the Nuragic people at the time, the Lukka (southwest Anatolia / more narrow and commonly accepted definition of the Luwians), the Tjeker (possibly "Trojans"), the Denyen and the Ekwesh (both possible cognates to Danoi and Achaen Greeks).

One of my favorite topics will b monitoring this thread :+)

Philistines are in the Bible and nothing in the Bible is true so not an answer

>>1549577
So egyptians and rome aren't real either?

Shiiieeet

>>1549577
Phillistines were a group of people who lived in the Levant at the beginning of the Iron Age / beginning of the Bronze Age, this is archaeologically attested to, they've found major Phillistine sites (Ashkelon in Gaza is just one of them).

They're also suspected to have some sort of connection to Aegean civilization, there's been Minoan pottery found in their sites and some references (including the bible lol) to them being from Crete originally.

>>1549461
Forgive my ignorance, but aren't you forgetting the (proto) sardinians, or whatever their name was at the time?
Unrelated since you seem versed on the argument: is the consensus that no Sea Peoples originated from beyond the mediterranean? I mean, could some Sea Peoples be proto-bretons or proto-vikings?

>>1549609
Not him but
>Nuragic people

>>1549609
>I mean, could some Sea Peoples be proto-bretons or proto-vikings?
Extremely unlikey for the former, absolutely not for the latter

>>1549613
As I said I'm pretty ignorant, although intetested, on the argument. Thanks for clearing that up though.

>>1549609
Yeaaaah I'm well versed in the sense that I'm just a fuckin nerd and its shit I like reading about, but I thought that the Sardinians and the Nuragics were the same thing so shows you what I know haha.

Real talk tho who's dick I gotta suck to get a GoT style show about the Bronze Age collapse? Shit writes itself

>>1549321

The first wave were likely mercenaries who had been employed in the armies of the various Late Bronze Age great powers. It was in this way that they learned how to defeat chariots (small shields and javelins), which neat trick enabled them to steamroll the standing armies of the states. After the first wave, adventurers from Europe would have formed part of the second and subsequent waves, alongside survivors of the first wave who had been reduced to desperation by the destruction of their cities, such as the Peleset / Phillistines (almost certainly Myceneans).

>>1549656
Yeah the period fascinates me aswell, insofar as diplomatic/political relationships between "nations" go mostly. There was a percieved sense of "comfyness": for example, a younger ruler would adress an older ruler of another country as "father", likewise the latter would refer to the former as "son". Same-age rulers would refer to each other as "brothers". Unseen in history ever since.

>>1549605
But I thought we've established that most of the Jewish lies in the Bible are just that, lies and most of the homeland garbage was made up

No one believes in Exodus for instance

apologies for poor English, from Slovakia

>>1549321
refugees from the failing Palace Economies during the Bronze Age Collapse.

>>1549707
Shalom halibut, greetings from Ghana apologize for my poor slovakian, but bible is world of GOD not jewish and certainly not lie

Anyone have a good book about the Bronze Age? Preferably not a kids book but also one a bit accessible for the layman

>>1549707
A lot of the old testament matches up with known history

>>1549680
Oh yeah, it's insane to recognize this legitimate age of international diplomacy over 3000 years ago and just how different that culture is.

Keeping in mind how important those ties between rulers were, it's interesting to think about how in the Iliad cycle Paris and Menelaus make a pact of brotherhood which of course gets totally fucked up which would have been an extremely serious offense beyond just getting cucked.

>>1549727

Not really. I mean a few bits do, but for the most part the OT is myth or propaganda, not history.

>>1549726
Part of the problem is that a LOT of the history about this time is conjecture and not everyone agrees with everyone else (especially with a lot of the Middle Eastern stuff due to religious interests)

There's a book named 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed that my neighbor read and said was good

>>1549726

Read The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. It's the best theory about what happened in that time period that has ever been hypothesized.

>>1549776
So his argument is that basically we used to have no ability to mentally talk to ourselves (i.e. no internal consciousness) and that we received messages from our consciousness much like a schizo does and that's the origin of people thinking there are gods?

>>1549859

that's his main thesis, which is rather suspect.

But his theory that the societies in the palace economy days were very delicate, and that their fall created a huge amount of psychological distress and violent movements of populations, is what I'm focusing on.

>>1549859
>>1549897

And another scientists later pointed out that the schizo tendencies that could gave rise to belief in gods occurred as a result of the increase in self-consciousness. Not the other way around.

>>1549776

DON'T read this, it's a waste of paper. Utter and errant nonsense from cover to cover.

>>1549897

How does his "theory" explain the fact that no "bicameral" humans have ever been located, not even among the most primitive of peoples?

Why is it that the sea people are relevant? what exactly did they do I cant remember

>>1549976
Collapsed the majority of Bronze Age civilizations. Not single-handedly, mind you, but they were quite literally the nail in the coffer.

>>1549981
they're one theory as to why, others do exist

this is part of the problem with scholarship of this time period, nothing is really "certain"

>>1549976

They're generally considered responsible for the wholescale devastation that destroyed the great civilisations of the Ancient world. Around 1200BC, virtually every city in the near east was destroyed by fire, and many of them were never occupied again. One of the only civilisations to survive this period was Egypt, and "Sea Peoples" is the term they use to describe several hordes of barbarians who attempted to invade Egypt at this time.

>>1549985
>>1549981
Holy fuck. Was it the huns?

>>1549996
wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to early

>>1549998
was it the early huns then

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjuZjHpxUWQ

>>1549953
dude, just because this thesis was wrong doesn't mean you should avoid it. Most of Freud's early work has been disproved, and yet we all read it for intro to Psych.

The work is important b/c it was one of the first times a scientist tried interpret historical evens from a cognitive science perspective. It represent a paradigm shift in the social science field.

If you'd like to read a book on the same subject that has stronger support then read The Master and His Emissary.

>>1549996
>SEA people
>huns
I'd be surprised to know a single hun could swim, let alone build a single boat. Nomadic populatons hardly even bathed.

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>>1549656
>Yeaaaah I'm well versed in the sense that I'm just a fuckin nerd and its shit I like reading about, but I thought that the Sardinians and the Nuragics were the same thing so shows you what I know haha.


Yes, the Sardinians or SRDN at the time and the Nuragics were the same thing, there are many elements that suggest it, for instance during the same period when the Srdn or Sherden appear first in the Levant, a lot of Nuragic pottery appears in Crete, both in the main port at the time (Kommos) and in other settlements, since that kind of pottery was not refined like the Aegean pottery, it's very unlikely that it was imported as an exotic product, but archaeologists have rather interpreted it as a proof of physical presence of Sardinians sailors on the island, same thing with a Nuragic vessel found in Cyprus, in what is considered by archaeologists a sea peoples' site.

Other evidences or hints are the strong similarity between the Sherden depicted by the Egyptians at Medinet Habu and the Nuragic bronze statuettes and stone statues.

The fact that the Nuragics were the first to actually make human sized statues in Europe to celebrate a dynasty also suggests they got the idea from the Eastern Med, possibly Egypt.

Also the name SRDN is attested in Sardinia since the 9th century bc, and it's exactly the same as the SRDN of the sea people attested in Egypt.

>>1550022
>dude, just because this thesis was wrong doesn't mean you should avoid it.

Actually that pretty much exactly means you should avoid it. Unless you're studying the history of ideas, what people got wrong is not worth studying in depth, there's plenty of stuff people got right to spend your time on.

>>1550030
horses can swim

>>1550030

While that Hunposter is indeed retarded, it's fair to point out that to the Egyptians, most foreigners were "Sea Peoples".

>>1549707
It's not just the Bible which states that, the Egyptians themselves recorded it in "real time", they recorded the Peleset or Philistines invading Egypt from the sea as foreigner people, clearly not natives to Canaan, and they also recorded that they (The Egyptians) settled them in forts in what is now modern day Palestine, after having defeated them and taken them as mercenaries (most likely as a compromise, like Franks giving Normandy to the Vikings)..

>>1550034
lol. oh my sweet summer child:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions

Yes, some of us care about the history of ideas. Indeed, examining the failures is how accurate knowledge is ascertained.

>>1550071
>HURR

Oh I see now that you're a simpleton. Carry on.

>>1550043
Hardly. Egypt had an "extensive" knowledge of other populations, whether due to first-hand contact or second-hand phoenician trade intermediation. Then of course if some nigh-unknown mix of foreigners start raiding your coasts, you tend to label them a broad term, but what surprises me is that these populatons were foreign to egyptians and phoenicians in the first place.

>>1550075

>links the most cited book on philosophy of science ever written.

>HURRRRRRRRRR YOUUUUUUUUISSSSSSSSS SIMPLETON!!!!!!!!!1

great show, mate.

>>1550094

The reasons it's apparent you're a simpleton are that you presume I was unaware of this book, and that you think it relevant to the discussion. But as I said, you carry on, you're clearly not worth my time.

Sea kikes

It was native americans

what did the lang bridges look like back then

>>1550105
oh but it IS relevant to our discussion. Eminently relevant. If you want me to spoon feed the explanation to you, just ask. I'm happy to help.

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>>1550082
They were foreigners because Phoenicians didn't venture west until the 10-9h century bc, who ventured west were the Cypriots, Myceneans and Mycenean Cretans who traded frequently with Sardinia for its rich deposites of ores (copper and silver).

Pic related is the distribution of oxhide ingots in the bronze age, they are the standardized copper ingots used at the time.

Basically the "money" of the time, oversimplifying a bit.

>>1549998
>>1550030
>>1550043
It's very plausible
http://sketchtoy.com/67359514

>>1549656
youve gotta suck some pretty golden dicks to get a GoT style show, considering the average budget for each episode is 8 million dollars

>>1549609
He mentioned the Nuragics.

>>1550129
Bretty gud. Just render it into hieroglyphics.

>>1550129
Top tier historical proof tbqh famalm. Time to write a book advocating for the hunnic-driven collapse of Bronze Age civilizations.

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>>1550175
bronze age civilizations and then rome, whats next with those huns?

>>1550187
I get the Hun part of Hungary, but who was Gary?

>>1550208
>>1550175
>>1550162
http://sketchtoy.com/67359570
This is a pic I took in the pyramids that prove the sea people were huns

>>1550094
probably because you refuted something he didn't say
you said some people care about the history of ideas, and he never said the contrary, he said that was the only reason to read about wrong theories (which is not 100% true but whatever)

>>1550125
I'm too sleepy to check anything else other than wikipedia, which can be disputable at times, but still this is a passage from their page about the sea peoples:

"Evidence shows that the identities and motives of these peoples were known to the Egyptians. In fact, many had sought employment with the Egyptians or were in a diplomatic relationship for a few centuries before the Late Bronze Age Collapse. For example, select groups, or members of groups, of the Sea People, such as the Sherden or Shardana, were used as mercenaries by Egyptian Pharaohs such as Ramesses II."

Should be noted that this specific passage does not provide any citations.

>>1550227
How does academia not know about this already? You have to publish these to that the world can know.

>>1550237
They were known because they had been there since one or two centuries before, not because Egyptians ventured to their homelands by themselves

>>1550245
The academia are made up of huns and they are trying to cover their tracks.
I tried to publish them anyway but they collapsed my civilizations each time

>>1550245
>>1550252
http://sketchtoy.com/67359614
pic related (hd) is what happened

>>1550227
theyre not actually huns, but an ethnic group descended from a legion of Hwan space samurais that settled in modern day Lombardy before invading the Bronze Age civilizations of the eastern Mediterranean

>>1550291
>sea people
>sea
>ships
>space ships
>space samurai
>space samurai ships
It's a solid theory

>>1550286
Wow. With this, and the cover-up of the Finno-Korean Hyperwar, I'm really starting to think that there is a massive pro-Asian bias in the world academia, and maybe even the ruling class. In fact, I'm sure that I have seen pictures of President Obama riding a horse, probably to appease the Hunnic Cliques.

>>1550228

The peer review process is used by scientists exists to study what people got wrong, and what they got right, in their studies. It's important to clearly identify both accurate and inaccurate analyses. Indeed, if the other guy knew anything at all about the book I referenced, he'd know that this was an essential part of the author's argument.

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>>1550306
He even has traditional asian garb (cause they all like to look the same) and an ancient sea people bow which made them so effective in battle
It's time to make up!

>>1550291
Come to destroy the last remaining enclaves of the Ancient Finnish Empire

Namely Egypt

Yes, it makes perfect sense

It was a good thread until permaidiots ruined it

Fucking snowniggers

are there any mods/games that have the sea people in them. It reminds me a bit of age of decadence

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>>1550133
>youve gotta suck some pretty golden dicks to get a GoT style show, considering the average budget for each episode is 8 million dollars

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>>1549727
>A lot of the old testament matches up with known history

No it doesn't, there is virtually no archeological support for any of the myths in the Old Testament.

It was literally We Wuz Kingz! - The Jewish Edition...

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>>1549656
>a GoT style show about the Bronze Age collapse? Shit writes itself

Except it doesn’t, as we don’t know shit about what actually happened, which means Hollywood would get to make it all up and we’d end up with petite 5’1” grrls karate chopping the fuck out of 250 lb Mycenaean warriors…

>>1549776
>>1549859
>>1549897
>>1549910
>>1549953
I've read Bicameral Mind (author's name is Julian Jaynes, btw) cover to cover. It covers a lot of ground, and the author was somewhat of a down-and-out (though with respectable enough credentials). It's an entertaining read, in the same way that a von Daniken book is (though perhaps much less wrong). I think it's mostly bunk, but at the time it was written (early 70s) there was a lot of new research into the hemispheres of the brain, and I guess Jaynes sensed a pattern after riffing about the regularity with which we do things without consciously thinking about them. It's worth a read, at least as an exercise in recognizing his errors. And as >>1549910
says, schizoid psychology may have given rise to religion - I personally think that Jaynes' book is one of the most compelling (even if false) theories about the origin of religion ever proposed.

>>1550315
It's the responsibility of a scientist to debunk bad science, even if he thinks it's a waste of time - because some rube out there could very well think that it's worth HIS time to buy into a bad hypothesis.

>>1550567
well a lot of it was formed in the Exile as a sort of national founding myth

it would be pretty humiliating as a society to be destroyed and sent into exile, so creating a creation myth where your one of your progenitors is promised Canaan by God and you moved the sea, made the sun go still etc. would be pretty powerful

There's not much archaeological evidence to support many religious histories in any event. It's not like there's a lot for the additions of the New Testament either, we just have more solid proof for some of the NT stuff since it's newer (like the edits to the Gospel of Mark)

>>1549577
Greece, Persia, Media, Rome, India, Phoencia, and Palestine confirmed made up.

#seapeoplewelcome

#notallseapeople

>>1551939
Do you know anybody from those places?

Have you ever been to those places?

Do you know anybody who has ever been to those places?

>>1551939
It wasn't called Phoenicia in the Bible but Canaan.

Phoenicians is how Greeks called the Canaanite sailors because of their purple dye.

>>1549609
They where obviously Polynesians

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>>1550614
I find the idea intriguing though I admit that psychology is not an area that I know much about, and would love to provoke a discussion on the pros and cons of this theory. Is it possible that there is some kind of "soft" interpretation, like maybe these ancient peoples interpreted their stream of consciousness as the gods communicating with them as they had no literary tradition or even vague perception as to what consciousness was, and it was only during the bronze age that their lives became stable enough to do more complex thinking than "where is my next meal coming from"?

Like there might be obvious, deep flaws with the orthodox theory, but could it be tweaked into something more in tune with modern neuropsychology?

>>1553463
You talk to your cat, right? To your dog? How about your favorite vibrator?

We automatically anthropomorphize things in order to make our interacts with them more human. Sailors do it to the sea and winds, too. How else can you rationalize natural forces you don't understand but to give them human characteristics? It's a consequence of our social nature.

Any talk about voices from gods is just fabrications, as we have so much evidence for in Greece. Trickery and deceit of common folks. But when something is written, and then repeated with authority, why is your average farmer going to disagree? It's been trying to figure out why there hasn't been rain, and this guy who can read is telling him that God in the sky spoke to him. And the man already thinks, on some level necessary to try and relate to the sky, that it's a living thing. So why not?

>>1549321
Atlanteans

>>1549321

This video explains it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jR3gBVT92xg

>>1549577
here's your (you), try to work for it next time

>>1550614
that's awesome that you've read the book. you're analysis is spot on, imo.

Have you ever heard of The Master and His Emissary? I highly recommend it, if you liked Jaynes.

>>1549321
Kangz of course

>>1553602
>>1553463

In the Bicameral Mind, Jaynes notes who, if one reads the bible literally and with his theory in mind, the ancient world was a nutty place.

After the death of an important leader, people would build a statue or effigy in his likeness and claim that he would speak to them. Of course he always gave them instructions on how society was supposed to be run.

Who hasn't had the experience of thinking, "what would my dad do in this situation?" when they were faced with a big challenge in life? It seems quite similar, but with a dash of religious mysticism.

>>1555441
I've been introduced to it recently thru 4chan. I'll try to read it one day, if I can find it at a library or used book store. The author has given several lectures, which can be found on youtube.

>>1555461
The trouble is that some of Jayne's own methods can be used to blow a hole in his ideas. He likes to use the OT and Homer's epics, for example. But the Epic of Gilgamesh is older than both of them, and it shows clear signs of introspective thought. Moreover, those portions seem to be a motif of the old Sumerian style, so they're not just parts that were added later.

So there's still decent odds that Jaynes was wrong. However, as you note, he does identify how nutty the world was back then. Many thinkers on the ancient world don't really account for the ubiquity of things like divination, prophecy, oracles, and divine intervention. Jaynes does, and even if he's wrong he deserves credit for addressing such issues.

But what other explanations could there be? I mean there's always the Full /x/ explanation, but I doubt most people here will go for that.

>>1549321
http://luwianstudies.org/sea-peoples/hypotheses/

>>1556034
In his book he says that the loss of bicameralism was not ubiquitous so it's not necessarily conflicting with his main point

Perhaps the Epic of Gilgamesh was written by someone who achieved Jaynes definition of consciousness early

>>1556034
>>1556115
I think that the lines of evidence Jaynes uses to support his theory are really just artifacts of the general ignorance about psychology that ancients' had - dreams were not seen as just products of the brain alone, and gods were seen acting everywhere because science did not exist yet in a form that could adequately replace supernatural thinking. Perhaps a "soft" version of Jaynes theory is more correct (I recall reading this before but im not sure where, whether it was in his book or a review) in which the switch to "true consciousness" from a bicameralized brain happened much earlier (if it did at all)

>>1556199
and I also suspect that Jaynes is correct in surmising that language significantly predates modern human consciousness, although not in the way he posits - rather that, according to fossil evidence (Neanderthal hyoid, etc. - I suspect the common ancestor of neanderthals and sapiens possessed some sort of language, more sophisticated than ape communication & likely mostly vocal), some kind of proto-language or symbolic, purely vocal (sung or whistled?) communication predates behavioral modernity in hominids

>>1556795
Just thought I'd throw this in there: Roger Fouts had an interesting theory regarding the origin of human language, although it is rather old and I don't know if it's still accepted. He hypothesized that spoken language was preceded by sign language, progressing from simply pointing at things that need to be eaten/killed/fixed/etc. to a more complicated language system, perhaps complete with simple syntax, perhaps not. In any case, certain noises came to be associated with certain motions (people tended to make a low grunt when pointing at prey, a barking noise when requesting food, and so on). Eventually the noises replaced the motions as the primary mode of communication.

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>You will never be a bronze weapon smith in a Nuraghe settlement.
>You will never be this comfy

>>1557599
IIRC, chimpanzees and other great apes have a more gestural/body language oriented communication system - visual signals are more complex and meaningful than auditory ones. Perhaps bipedalism evolved to enhance human gestural capabilities.