Good works versus faith

>>1537611

Really? I thought there would be someone who would at least try to faith alone.

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>>1537611
>how can you argue that faith requires no good works?
What? Faith is outside the bounds of empirical facts and the good bad dichotomy. That's the point of faith. It's belief outside the bounds of proof. It requires no works.

>Can you be faithful and not attempt to follow the Bible? What logic is that?

Most certainly.

>For Kierkegaard Christian faith is not a matter of regurgitating church dogma. It is a matter of individual subjective passion, which cannot be mediated by the clergy or by human artefacts. Faith is the most important task to be achieved by a human being, because only on the basis of faith does an individual have a chance to become a true self. This self is the life-work which God judges for eternity.

God exists outside these ideas of Christianity/Islam/Hebrew/Pagan ideals.

Soren Kierkegaard, give him a squizz. Father of agnosticism and attacked the churches for essentially being wrong, he did a dam good job at it.

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>>1537714

I was hoping to get a protty response.

As you don't really see the relationship of faith and the Bible, then I'm not sure what there is to debate.

I suppose that makes you a heretic though.

>>1537732
>As you don't really see the relationship of faith and the Bible

The point is there is no relation.

>.t Kierkegaard

You feel for their lies.

>>1537735

But what then of the Bible. The whole point of it was the word made flesh?

I assume you do not believe that Christ died for our sins as much as Mohamed is the true prophet.

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>>1537611
>how can you argue that faith requires no good works?

Faith PRODUCES Good Works which are the EVIDENCE of Faith

Why aren't all Protestants NEET monks ascetics?
Matthew 19:21

>>1537732

1. There is no free will to salvation
2. The ONLY way you can be saved is by God blessing you with his Grace
3. Grace is manifested in Faith
4. Faith is manifested in good works

This is what James meant. Faith and good works are inseparable. If there's no good works, then there's no faith, no grace and thus no salvation.

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>>1537789
because Lord knows we ain't perfect!

>>1537789
I understand poor and acsetic but how in the fuck are you getting NEET out of that?

I have a question for Catholics.
I am having trouble agreeing with the Catholic viewpoint of the Pope, although I want to be Catholic. Why should I respect the Pope? Also, why does he have primacy over the other Bishops from a Theological Standpoint?
Also, if I were to become a Catholic, would I need to be baptized again?
Thank you, hopefully you guys turn me into a real Catholic.
I am a recent convert and have no official denomination yet.

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>>1537800
>all this Prodsplaining
because he's the Vicar of Christ dummy

>>1537800
Become Orthodox or High Chuch Anglican.

>>1537812
Fuck off falseflagger

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>the Bible
get a load of this proddy

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>>1537812
i wonder how many boys have seen that face?

>>1537800

To be fair, it depends if you believe God mad an authority over the Church. If its all anarchy then protty. If you believe the Church has a singular leadership then Catholics.

To be fair, Orthodox is pretty based.

>>1537816
I thought about both.

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>>1537820

>>1537824
>>1537816
Orthodox is a gigantic meme and makes no sense considering it isn't terribly "orthodox"

Anglicans are dead and have woman priests and marry gays.

Catholicism is the Aristocracy of the soul.

>>1537824
Well, I certainly believe Apostolic Succession is important.
I thought about Orthodoxy. It is alright.

>>1537795
>dat wall fish

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>>1537838
fishermen gonna fish

>>1537812
Those are some small hands

>>1537812
Like I said...
>I am a recent convert and have no official denomination yet.
I will never be Protestant again; it took me away from Christianity, therefore I think it is DEFINITELY heresy.
Now, I am choosing between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I wish you would offer answers.
Now let's try again.
Why does the Pope have primacy over the other Bishops from a Theological Standpoint?
>THEOLOGICAL STANDPOINT
Also, if I were to become a Catholic, would I need to be baptized again?

>>1537611
>bruh sola scriptura
>except for this instance
Why do people take Proddies seriously?

>>1537849
That is why I left Protestantism.

>>1537849
See >>1537794

>>1537851
what are you now?

Any Sedevacantists here?
I am not a sedevacantist, but I would like a breakdown of why you believe some Popes are valid and the Popes after a certain point are not valid.

Thanks.
Pax vobiscum.

>>1537844
>Why does the Pope have primacy over the other Bishops from a Theological Standpoint?
because he's the successor to St. Peter and the voice which unites the disparate Christian world together as well as allows them all to contribute to great works greater than any individual or parish could ever accomplish.
because he's the patron of Artists and theologians and has calmed down in recent years to accepting his role as "prime minister" of the Church rather than Prince.

Orthodoxy is a mess, divided by ethnic squabbling, lacking in unity, and heavily confused with its own doctrine as what constitutes "development" or not.

not to mention Catholicism has the richest theological tradition of any with ideas ranging from stuff similar to Calvinism with hard determinism and a select elected group chosen by God, to more esoteric ideas reminiscent of platonic Gnosticism, the kabbalah occult and meditation.

>>1537794
>>1537855
> There is no free will to salvation
This is just what Calvin thinks, which goes against S O L A S C R I P T U R A.
Proddies are literally BTFO by their own basics

>>1537844
>Why does the Pope have primacy over the other Bishops from a Theological Standpoint?

Because one interpretation of Matthew 16:18 gives Peter dominion over the whole church, and apostolic succession means that authority extends to the pope.

>>1537865
Popes I like: real popes
Popes I don't like: antipopes and heretics

That's all there is to sedevacantism, it's a bunch of protestants who can't even admit they're protestants

>>1537870
I have no idea what you mean, predestination to salvation is what the Bible teaches. And it's even an orthodox teaching you fucking crypto Pelagian.

>>1537849
well they just interpret that verse differently. i was actually in a bible study that went over that verse and explained that faith and works are intertwined, not that works are a requirement of salvation.
t. ex-protestant atheist

>>1537865
Well that concept only works in hindsight, since if you call the pope a false one during his reign you're getting excommunicated.

>>1537844
Catholic capital is still in Catholic hands.

Orthodox capital is now a Muslim city.

>>1537870
Fun Story: I had a religion professor for a few classes who absolutely refused to show her personal religious beliefs in an capacity in class. Her main academic focus was early church history and Orthdox monasticism, but made absolutely no indication as to what she believed personally.

The only time I ever heard her make a judgement about something theologically was about Calvinism. She said it made no sense theologically and was sort of morally repgunant because of what its fatalism implied and led its adherents to believe.

>>1537862
I left Protestantism, and I regret this, for a short period of Atheism. Protestantism never really gave me a good grasp of God.

I recently converted back to Christianity after a realization that God is real. Now, through my period between my conversion and now I have been doing research on various denominations.
This leaves me with two options: Orthodoxy and Catholicism.
I will never be Baptist again. I am 100% certain that it is heresy; it brought me away from the Lord and I have a feeling that my period of Atheism was for a reason.

tl;dr I am just a Non-Protestant Christian. I like Catholicism and Orthodoxy, and I am trying to choose between the two.

>>1537890
You sound like a huge fucking faggot, convert to that.

>>1537875
No, the bible is filled with parables and such about the agency of the sinner in repenting or not.

Then a millenium later Calvin gets there and shits on everything to defend his sins

>>1537886
This is what college does to you.

>>1537897
And by Calvin you mean St. Paul and St. Augustine right? You can't be saved through your own will, sorry my man.

>>1537877
Yes, but if you believe in that interpretation aren't you breaking sola scriptura? It just reminds me of papal bulls and such

>>1537896
Funny.
Are you angry because I called the Baptist denomination heresy?
Maybe you are just an angry Atheist?
Either way, I hope you find peace.

>>1537907
>doing good works will lead you to salvation
This is false

>being saved will lead you to doing good works
This is correct

>>1537904
Here's just one example
>He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
>Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them
>No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
>He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead

>>1537907
Do you know what Sola Scriptura even is? Considering how papists always misinterprete Sola Fide (the pic in OP is a great proof of that) I wouldn't be surprised if you genuinely had no clue

>>1537912
Yes, but the problem is that in sola fida is that you don't need good works, only faith. Therefore you can be the most despicable man alive, but if you have faith you're going to heaven

>>1537918
That is correct. Good works is an immediate outward manifestation of faith/salvation and not its cause.

>>1537918
The mistake you're making is assuming that faith without good works is even a thing. It isn't. There is a difference between real faith and an intellectual faith, if you've been blessed with grace you MUST do good works, it's out of your control and will.

>>1537869
Thank you.
If I were to be Catholic, would I need to be baptized to receive Eucharist.

>>1537611
"We teach justification by faith alone, but not a faith that is alone."
-Martin Luther
Learn the difference between Protestantism (biblical Christianity) and the heresy of Antinomianism (easy believeism).

>>1538023

Yes, but its not that hard. You need to attend a religious ceremony. I did it when I was younger than 12 so its not that hard.

>>1538040
I was baptized as a Lutheran, do I need to be baptized as a Catholic?

>>1538048

http://sacredhearthouston.org/first-holy-communion

If you can't do it, then you are more retarded than a 7 year old.

>>1537914
Pelagius pls
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9

>>1537800
Go Reformed

>>1538054

But the Bible says that if you don't do good works (giving to brothers in need) you will go to hell.

Matthew 25:31–46

>>1537862
Heretical

>>1538064
See >>1537926

>>1538064
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUHhz4aDcsA&list=PLGX4mNJduw9rQxrl5Q1Y3nW5p-F2plUTq

>>1538071

Predestination is shit tier.

God gave us free will. To do good or bad. If you believe that if you are predestined by grace to be saved and do good works, then you don't believe in free will.

Which means god just sends people to hell arbitrarily.

>>1538092
There is no free will mentioned in the Bible while predestination is very Biblical, you can't just ignore facts because you don't like them.

>>1538092
>sends people to hell arbitrarily

So?

>>1538101

https://www.openbible.info/topics/free_will

>>1538092
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Ephesians 1:4

>>1538102
So it conflicts with their belief that god is just?

>>1538092
>>1538102
>>1538119
No he doesn't. People condemn themselves to hell by their sins, God passes them over. The elect are the exception

>>1538130

So are you free to choose goodness over sin or you are damned from birth?

>>1538130
I've always been confused about this, if god is all powerful and knowing, and he created everything, how can we possibly have free will?

>>1538162
Man is totally depraved and only God's efficacious grace can save him.

>>1538170
Combatiblism

>>1538173

That didn't answer the question.

Either you are saved or damned.

Either you have control over damnation or its determined for you.

Which is it?

>>1538183
Adam's sin damns, God's grace saves. You have no say in it.

>>1538195

So, you should just kill yourself because it won't matter what you do?

>>1538202
Repent and believe the gospel.

>>1537611
Learn the difference between antecedent and consequent conditions.

>>1537886
To be fair, despite the lasting cultural legacy that Calvinism has left in the Anglophone world (and much of that legacy is terrible due to a number of historical reasons), there just aren't very many of them left to defend themselves. They're a convenient whipping boy in academia. There was something of a "resurgence" of "Calvinism" over the last decade or so, but it was so heavily evangelical and Baptist that it hardly has any connection to the genuine article. There are still traces of it left in the mainline Presbyterian church, but that denomination is so liberal that it's muddled with postmodern mush. And then there are the tiny populations of Orthodox Presbyterians, United Reformed, and the confessionalists still remaining in the PCA, CRCNA, RPCNA, and a few other denominations. There are many times more confessional Lutherans around than there are confessional Calvinists, and even THEY don't have much of a voice.

>>1538175
Thanks for linking that, first time I've actually heard of that weirdly. Although their definition of free will is not what I'm really getting at.

What the real problem to me is:

God created mankind and is all knowing.
So as soon as created us he knew what would humans would do. And he didn't fix it.

Humans do bad things. Either god made us this way or did it by accident.

>>1538216
He didn't cause it, he foresaw it and acted accordingly with his decree of predestination

>>1538226

Let's say you are destined to go to hell no matter what you do.

How would you feel? Imagine no matter how many good works you do, you are going to hell.

Imagine this is you now.

>>1538175
Compatibilism is a modernist concept. I'm not terribly offended by the use of the term but it can be confused with deterministic categories which predestination would not conform to. The framework more closely aligned with scriptural teaching would be a Thomistic (rather than a Molinist or Suarist) version of concursus.

>>1538266
If you truly are a reprobate you don't care until you get there
Reprobates are rebels against God

>>1538285

This logic.

Wouldn't the solution is to abort all babies and exterminate the human race to save as many souls as possible. Or does god send all unborn babies to hell?

>>1538216
Yes, but there must be temptation, or faith is senseless
>>1538266
You don't know you're going to hell no matter what you do, it's just a later invention, so it's just best to do as many good works as you can
>Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones

>>1538292
Unborn babies can't repent, so they are punished for original sin.

>>1538292
Well, that answer is highly cynical and assumes that man is inherently prone to evil

>>1538293
False gospel

>>1538296
Original sin

>>1538267
Like this?
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/03/calvinian-thomism-providence-conservation-concurrence-in-the-thought-of-john-calvin/

>>1538327
Quite like that, yes. And the author is quite correct to note the difference between the necessitarianism and compatibilism of Edwards and the older Calvinist tradition (although I would question whether these later categories of necessitarianism are applicable to Calvin, who was working in a time in which these later categories had yet to be developed), which quite frequently drew upon Thomistic and scholastic categories when they systematized their own theologies. Where the article you linked goes off the rails is when it attempts to derive soteriological conclusions from the Thomistic/Aristotelian assumptions of the early Calvinists. The Calvinists denied free will precisely in the realm of the generation of merit or true moral good before God, while at the same time holding to freedom of contradiction and freedom of contrariety in regard to particular action, and concurrence with regard to these priors in relation to divine providence. It's the realm of merit and salvation where, in the eyes of the Reformers, natural theology fails and we have to rely on the biblical evidence with regard to free will.

>>1537611
I thought taking the bible literally was a sign of not understanding the bible?

>>1538170
We literally can't, look up Newcomb's paradox. Perfect predictors and free will are mutually exclusive.

>>1538564
Autism

>>1537800
Peter you stellare the stone upon which i will set up this Chievo

>>1537714
Kierkegaard's "Faith" ironically contradicts Sola Fide as the Reformed defines.

The fact that the whole theme of "faith" in the Bible involves struggle, action and effort, it makes no sense to actually believe in Sola Fide as Protestants define it.

Go Calvinist and you end up making the Bible's stance on this ridiculous since why is there the need to tell someone to hold steadfast to their faith or to show faith with action or work out their salvation in fear and trembling when it is already assured?

Luther's Sola Fide makes sense somewhat but this is merely because his form of it is basically not quite Protestant

>>1537844
>Also, if I were to become a Catholic, would I need to be baptized again?
Short answer: no.
Catholic baptism is no go for proddies, but the opposite isn't true.

>>1537844
pope is to be respected because:

>He takes the position peter once did as the leader of the Church, and therefore has the most important responsibility and religious importance to the faith as it's figure head and representative.
>Is elected by a college of cardinals, the "most" religious members of the Church
>Is the only one able to re-interpret doctrine and religious mandate due to his position and the Popes ability to commune directly with god
>(if your hardcore catholic) is the only one able to commune directly with god, wheras other catholics have to pray to saints who work/ talk to god on your behalf

>>1537752
>>>1537735
>But what then of the Bible. The whole point of it was the word made flesh?
The Bible is a work of man and is to be interpreted as such. Christ is the word made flesh. To say the Bible is the word made flesh is ridiculous. The Bible is not the fulfillment of the prophets and is not the fulfillment of God's promise to man, the word of God. This is Christ. By living as Christ did and through humility and faith may we achieve the afterlife. The Bible is a collection of holy books. It is not the word of God. Unless you're a Muslim it's a work of man

>>1538208
Lmao you didn't answer his argument

>>1538295
Nice! God sure is just when he decides to punish babies

>>1539706
They deserve it