Skeptical Look at Fatima: Response to Political Climate

>>1527692
All Marian apparitions are demonic, and the three "secrets" are ridiculous.

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>>1527700
You sure showed me with your buzzwords. Now, might I suggest Reddit?

r/Christians

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>>1527703
As I said in the OP, I don't believe the apparitions at Fatima were in any way supernatural, and the more likely explanation for them is a combination of religious hysteria, manipulative personalities, and

What's more, there is reason to believe the "secrets" were fabrications of the Catholic hierarchy in response to what they saw as the spread of atheism/communism in the 40s and 50s.

The point I'm trying to make is that Fatima was essentially a deliberately planned propaganda campaign, designed by the Church to make it appear as though a supernatural power was siding with the Church.

>>1527714
yeah but anarchist newspapers reported on the apparition in 1917

>>1527714
>religious hysteria

There is not a single instance of "religious hysteria" where the actual reality of religious/supernatural events is not just as likely of an explanation.

>>1529616

sun apparitions are not unique to Fatima though its certainly the biggest and most well known of these phenomena. Since then many Marian movements have tried with various levels of success to claim t heir own sun miracle.

What is rarely mentioned is the fact that right after the sun dance it was announced that WWI would end that day. This of course did not happen.

It strange that accross cultures, young women/girls have often been at the center of these "shamanistic" visions and prophetic movements. Perhaps its a quirk of human psychology.

>>1529629
Even the church's own doctrines say that a scientific explanation is preferable over a miraculous one. so if "religious hysteria" is just as likely you should be giving it the benefit of the doubt

You should know there have been documented instances of large groups of people seeing things or engaging in unexplainable actives such as mass, "uncontrollable" dancing. "mass hysteria" I believe is documented as being a rare but real phenomena

>>1529659
>"mass hysteria" I believe is documented as being a rare but real phenomena

And I'm saying such things are evidence of the supernatural that atheists dance around by giving them a clinical label.

Also, the Church is allowed to preference a scientific explanation because it doesn't begin its investigation by completely ruling out the miraculous explanation. It's more honest than most researchers.

>>1529668
That is a pretty huge assumption on your part. What reason do you have to think this?

There would not be a bias against spiritual explanations if you could reliably display spiritual phenomena. its bias based on all known scientific models, not on blind prejudice

>>1529616
>yeah but anarchist newspapers reported on the apparition in 1917

Actually, the anarchist newspapers only mentioned that people had gathered to expect a miracle. It's generally believed that the scope of the people who witnessed anything was actually pretty low, and the "miracle" (i.e. staring at the sun and this causing optical illusions) was pretty low-key until it was seized by the Holy See and its attempts to bolster it into a real bona fide miracle.

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>>1529668
>It's more honest than most researchers.

This has got to be the least intelligent comment I've ever read on /his/.

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>>1529616
Actually, the entire incident with the "Sun miracle" is likely to be a complete invention by the Church in the 40s, or very much exaggerated/distorted. Lucia herself couldn't even remember the famous "Sun miracle" when asked by investigation clergymen in 1917:
The following is a transcript from the conversation between an investigating clergy-man and Lucia in 1917:

Formigao: “The 13th of this month, did you ask that the people would look at the sun?”
Lucia: “I don’t remember having done that.”
Formigao: “Did you ask them to close their umbrellas?”
Lucia: “The last time, I cannot remember whether I asked them.”
Formigao: “Did She tell you that the people would be punished if they did not repent their sins?”
Lucia: “I do not remember whether she said that; I think not.”
Formigao: “The 13th, you did not have such doubts as you have today about what the Virgin has said. Why do you have such doubts today?”
Lucia: “That day I could remember better; it was closer to the events.”

What most likely happened was Lucia might have been convinced either a miracle would occur, or that she could fool people into thinking one happened. Most people were unimpressed and saw nothing, but a few, prompted by Lucia, stared up at the sun and - due to being blinded by the strong light - thought they saw it move and dance.

>>1529774
I do remember reading the newspaper, albeat from a catholic source.

I think in a religiously charged crowd even skeptics would be subject the the psychological forces of conformity, especially if you stare a something like the sun. Ive stared at a single spot as a meditation exercise before, staring at something like the sun could seriously fuck with your vision even without anything else going on.

>>1529722
Did I trigger your atheist sensibilities?

>>1529774
People in nearby towns saw it too, though.

>>1529825
From what I have seem those claims were established well after the actual event.

you may still chose to believe them but that makes them unreliable as witnesses.

>>1529828
I'm also skeptical of the position taken in >>1529774 because for the longest time the Church was extremely hesitant to take Fatima seriously. They do this with all miracles, or have for the last few centuries. They're aggressively skeptical, and more often than not play catch up to the laity in belief.

It'll happen with Medjugorje too. Just watch.

>>1529837
The laity often embrace events like Medjugorje unquestioningly. The magistrum of course does not want to alienate these people, but has an interest in the long term implications of embracing such an event, and the people involved. Often they leave it up to the individual or simply declair something "worthy of belief" without requiring people to believe in it.

But they are not skeptics in the traditional sense. They are not challenging established miracle stories only making sure the new ones are not damaging the church's authority

>little girl flat out lies about visions
>tricks entire religion

All of these "miracles" are flat out lies or fabrications.

>>1529857
No, Anon. They're real. What would it take to convince you?

>>1529871

If I saw it with my own eyes, then I will agree that miracles exist.

>>1529877
Go looking. You won't see anything if you're not looking. Despite my knee-jerk antipathy towards atheism, deep down I wish no one ill and just want everyone to believe in Christ. So go looking.

>>1529886

Those are some terribly vague instructions. In fact, I'm inclined to say that by telling me to "go look" for miracles, you've created a headspace and bias when looking at events. This causes you to them view them as "miracles" because you're so desperately wanting to see one.

In short, I think it's pure nonsense.

>>1529877
Although I'm catholic and Portuguese I would only believe in Fatima if I saw it with my own eyes.

>>1529837
That's my entire point. The Church was extremely reluctant to accept the Fatima story. Then anti-clerical sentiment and secular ideologies started to rise to prominence in the 30s and 40s, and THEN the Church decided to appropriate a relatively obscure "miracle" and turn it into this disguised political campaign

>>1529871
They're not real. I also find it odd that the same God wgo supposedly parted the Red Sea, appeared as a pillar of fire, brought down the walls of Jericho, and made food materialize from nowhere only performs "miracles" as minor as some lights here and there and a minor 'healing' of people with conditions that can either be treated or that can go into remission.

>>1529886
What are some miracles you've seen?

>>1529886
Why don't you perform a miracle, if you believe in them so much? Didn't Christ say that believers would be empowered by the Spirit to heal others and cast out demons?