In the end of the day, did he do more good or harm to England?

>>1513264
he fucking wrecked the place. the wake of just the religious disaster was felt immediately but progressed for hundreds of years, the cultural and resulting artistic disaster is immeasurable. henry 8 inhereted great prosperity and stability, his crazy actions could never have worked otherwise. he burned the shop to the ground imho, and got away with it. his daughter and her successors had the most bizarre problems because of his firesale. he was practically the g.w. bush of his day.

>>1513285
G Dubs could have been a great president if he didn't fuck up Iraq. If he didn't try to completely eliminate that Ba'aths instead of just taking down Saddam and transitioning to democracy America would still be an interventionist power. The one decision fucked him, if it weren't for that we would be great.

>>1513330
Katrina got fumbled pretty bad too.

>>1513330
>G Dubs could have been a great president if he didn't do the one thing he did
i don't entirely agree with you anyway but regardless, the one thing he fugged was, is, and in 40 years still will be a disaster so bad my grandkids will still be wondering why

but this isn't a dubbya thread. trace the fallout of henry tudor's megalomania and in more than one way it lends itself to dubya's and people are still stanky about it 500 years later

Can we talk about Henry VIII and not George W. Bush?

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>>1514442

>>1514442
You can't talk about one without talking about the other.

Harm. I can't see how anyone can say he did good for England.

The only good thing he did was leave Rome. His rule resulted in at least 12 years of chaos after his death.

>>1514978
He got the Catholic church out of English politics.

>>1515029
Yeah, he did that to assert the absolute power of the monarch. How is that a good thing, especially considering that his seizing of the Church, dissolving the monasteries, and wholesale slaughtering of Catholic religious concentrated power and cultural influence in the hands of a single individual?

>>1513285
>the cultural and resulting artistic disaster is immeasurable
what do you mean by this?

>>1515053
It meant that the government could get more revenue as it collected tithe among other things. Also, it made the nobles stronger and richer and thus more content with the king, which is ultimately how the king derives his power in the first place.

>>1515065
He means the iconoclasm which had very little effect during his reign.

>>1515029
and the catholic church was not influent anymore when he kicked them out so it is an extremely empty archivement

>>1515053
>how is increased national sovereignty a good thing

This how stupid you sound.

>>1515089
This is complete BS. The pope denied Henry's request for divorce from Catherine of Aragon due to Charles V influence in Rome

>>1513264
Did he do anything good?

>>1513264
He tried so hard and got so far, but in the end it didn't even matter.

>>1515096
the fact that the pope was a puppet in the hands of charles V should show you how little influence it had

>>1515108
The pope ultimately made the decision. Besides, Charles V was the most powerful man on earth at the time

>>1515082
I guess it's a good thing from a monetary perspective. But the effect it had on the culture of England was pretty extreme and much of it (iconoclasm, all the negative aspects of absolutism, the unleashing of Anglicanism onto the world) was pretty bad if you ask me. I'm also not so sure that it made nobles more content with the king in the long run, since there was a lot of unrest from the time he died until Elizabeth I came to power.

>>1515112
and that decision amounted to nothing because Henry did wathever he wanted anyway, while the pope did nothing to avoid it. The church had little influence in the XVI century and none past the XVII

>>1515122
>Iconoclasm
What, the one where the moment Mary came back almost all of the icons came back? I grant you the shrines to saints never recovered though
>negative aspects of absolutism
France had the exact same problem and it still held onto the Catholic church
>Anglicanism
Rape baby but still not as bad as Islam

That is because of the fact Henry fucked up the finances and Hereford further debased coinage and had poor harvests

>>1513285
You sound an awful lot like a Catholic

>>1515140
The pope would have excommunicated Henry if he had, which made him a target for crusade

>>1515150
being an heretic is an even greater reason for a crusade than being excomulgated, but there was no crusade anyway, in the age of henry viii crusades and religious wars were only an excuse for pursuing political interests and no one had interest in england

>>1515141
Related to iconoclasm, England is still littered with the ruins of beautiful medieval abbeys and friaries. Without the Reformation these might have survived to the present day.
>Rape baby but still not as bad as Islam
It more or less has the opposite problem Islam has. It's still pretty horrendous though, since modern day Anglicans lack any kind of moral authority or spine whatsoever. I'll grant you that absolutism probably wouldn't have been avoided either way, but it might have been delayed a bit without Henry VIII's meddling.

>>1515172
What? The wool and cloth trade was huge in England. It is what to a large degree made the seventeen provinces so rich

>>1515174
I am aware of that. However, that was more Edward VI I think, since he was a super protestant.

Yeah Anglicanism is mostly a cultural thing here.

>>1515029
yeah and the holocaust got jewish influence out of german society too. doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. the end didn't justify the means.

also, his selfish hissy fit with the church can be traced directly to the english civil war where dozens of thousands of people were killed, horrible atrocities committed, and resulted in the murder of the kang and stifling military rule under cromwell. not to mention it sowed the seeds amongst the would-be new world colonists that england was a religiously oppressive hellhole and should keep the fuck out of peoples' affairs. that whole meddling sentiment came to roost eventually.

>>1513330
Except for his utter failure to respond to Katrina, his failure to act on intelligence warning him about 9/11, the signing of the patriot act in response, and his total lack of control on fiscal policy setting up the worst recession since the Great Depression.

I dont dislike Bush personally but his presidency was a disaster.