What if God is real but he doesn't reveal himself to atheists

The argument that will come up in the near future when more of the universe is explained.

I think God just doesn't care what we do.

>>1512839
Really makes you think

He doesn't seem to want to reveal himself to those who do believe either

>>1512839
Jesus isn't God

>>1512854
Blasphemy

>>1512839
God reveals Himself to atheists too.

How many atheists change their conscious minds to God, or how many of the devotees of God were once against Him?

When we hold expectations for God's revelation, we look for something else and apparently more than what we are being revealed now. We sometimes can't see it because we are looking for some revelation that agrees with our own perception and expectation rather than the Glory of God that is in front of us always.

We believe God is not separate from us, but we have moments with the perception that He has left us or abandoned us without being aware that He is right here or there.

God DID reveal himself and atheists choose to ignore it desu

>>1512839
>>1512867
the pragmatic problem of christianity is that they have priests+monks, instead of having monks like in buddhism. Normal people are left alone with the priests who are just failed monks. And monks in christianity do not communicate well about their meditation.
Then of course, there is issue that christians do not have the right view, even though ayya khema says that a few christians monks manage to understand the right view in some book form the middle age.

>>1512914
The subject in OP is "What if God reveals Himself" rather than "priest and monk reveal God to you"

To call the majority of Orthodox monks "failed" because they don't have the right view according to someone else, is saying, when that someone else is apparently a Buddhist monk who is also seen as having the wrong view according to the Orthodox.

The relationship from God to us, God to priest, God to Buddhist monk, etc. is of the same quality, and importance because the soul is balanced with God's enlightening indifference and equality, basically every individual self is part of the Whole of God's Self.

>>1512839
i was a believer, now im not. gods never revealed itself to me.

>>1512839
what does it mean to believe in something which you don't know?

if believing in god without knowing he's real is a vritue then so is believing in every piece of buillshit you can conceive of.

you are supposed to see a justification for a belief before you hold it true, even shitty Plato knew this one

>>1512843
Can confirm this is not true

But here's some food for thought---

1 Kings 19:11-13

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

13 And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?

>>1512839
Man created god

>>1512854
According to who

>>1512839
What if you killed yourself?

>>1514482
Arian

Jesus was a divine android

but the devil was ios

>>1512839
Jesus isn't really considering her sentimentality for that particular doll in that picture. Children would certainly forgo a bigger doll for their doll.

What if God is real but he is malevolent?
And when you die everyone goes to hell regardless of their life on earth.
Mortal religions are just a way to trick humans who get their hopes up, only to be driven into greater despair once they find out their religion was false and they wasted their lives.

>>1514600
>What if God is real but he is malevolent?

What if there are multiple Gods, the good God and the bad God are constantly balancing each other out and the world goes to shit when either of them get the upper hand, resulting in an eventual restabilization, and later on another destabilization?

>>1514493
What if I killed myself?

>>1512839
>jesus giving a little girl a teddy bear

cool chain email grandma
i'll forward it to 5 friends right away

>>1514585
The bigger gift isn't revealed to her. OP's image portrays that she's essentially blind to the truth and holding onto something less significant. It's kind of a parable how people are afraid to let go of the tangible for the broader truths that can't be seen with out Christ.

Kinda like how dimensions work, we can't see anything in a higher dimension because there's not enough space for us to see it. God though, Christ, they teach of things that we can both see and not see. They teach tangible truths and truths about things of the spirit, which we can't see. OP's image refers to that which we can't see.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Unseen = Things of the Spirit

>>1514853
A better analogy would be instead of a physically incarnate Christ offering to replace the bear, it should be a preacher telling the girl to sacrifice the bear, and he promises an infinitly large replacement bear after she dies, without depicting with any certainty if what the preacher says is true or not.

That would better illustrate the psychological situation.

>>1514853
and then there's people like me that tried to believe and couldn't. there is no gift to be recieved, I've already held my arms wide open for Christ

This kind of reasoning is tantamount to saying "for it to be made apparent to you, you have to agree with it." Which basically means you have to be seeking out a higher power. I don't know about you, but a truth that can't convince someone of an opposing opinion on its own merits isn't much of a truth.

>>1514870
Lol nah..

The entire testimony of Christ and his teachings are there for anyone to read. But the general message, the general teaching being passed on, is one that releases the anxieties of life. The worry about wealth, food, and image just to name a few. With the release of these, so goes the bondage of life and so goes the over consumption, through greed, lust, gluttony, which are all related at the foundation and impact people in more ways than just money, sex, and over consumption of food. You could have greed generally, seeking more of anything than you need, it could be out of spite or vanity or any other evil etc etc. It doesn't only apply to money etc etc The focal teaching of Christ though, which is love for your neighbor, it quells the flesh's desire for more. I mean the more you examine the teachings, the more you'll see, so I'm not even bringing Christ's teachings justice just from this description, simply because there's plenty more that can be said about what there is to learn from His teachings.

Heaven though, the unseen, the hidden bigger teddy bear so to speak, that's just a perk. The truth LEADS to that, but no...the teachings are not about dangling a carrot so to speak in order to get people to behave. The carrot being the bigger teddy bear or rewards of Heaven. That's only what people assume because they either don't understand what they're reading or just automatically assuming that's what is being taught out their arrogance in thinking they just automatically "get it" without even doing the math.

>>1514934
I'm saying that the OP image "cheats" by equating a physically obvious Christ with the real-life religious belief with cannot be proven.

>>1514901
Then you never believed to begin with anon. It's constant anon, not a "do this for me and I'll do this for you" relationship. It's unconditional in nature.

You put conditions on it and the moment those conditions are not met, you're building a wall and not allowing Him to work, without even knowing you're building a wall and not allowing Him to work.

It is disconcerting how much faith is needed on our part to be honest, it what scares me personally. Makes me scared for myself and others. But as with anything in life, we have our part. We always have our part.

You know....I take that back, what is disconcerting is how hidden God and Christ is from us. To be in the dark like that, that darkness is the source of confusion and lack of knowledge. In the dark "anything could be possible...there could be many gods...it could all mean nothing...yolo so go out in a bang"- When a life of discipline and love is what truly helps not only others but yourself as well. As Christ taught.

>>1514990
If you are "disconcerted" and actually scared by the amount of self-hypnosis is needed to maintain your faith, why are you condemning him for "building a wall" against the force of religious conversion? By your own account it should be quite natural to not believe due to not reaching a faith threshold.

Of course this wouldn't be a problem for any religion except so often they claim the domain of morality as exclusive, so then you get the blame the victim game.

>>1515024
See that's it though, there's no forcing anything. The conditions that require the search is what's so disconcerting. Being unaware and being susceptible to being shaped by other people who are unaware, essentially being raised by the world who doesn't even know. That's what's disconcerting. How hidden truth is. How difficult self control can be, even after being told their benefits. As for the understanding from the teachings though, they're exactly that, obvious and an understanding. I already stated how having conditions in anything disallow progression. Not just in faith but with everything in life. If you put conditions before anything and conditions aren't met, you're going to have to utilize "self hypnoses" and various other fights to get over walls. The only way that can be considered as "blaming the vicitim" is if one is offended and hurt by pointing that out. And I'm pretty sure that's the ill benefits of the victim mentality in general, constantly offended, even in correction. The victim mentality is a source cause for depression itself.

Not only all that, but you're also you're inaccurate in your accusations. Meither me or someone else was forcing anything upon him. He simply stated that he opened his arms to Christ and got nothing from it, so he seized to believe. You really can't just go around throwing accusations and baseless claims, I mean it's counter productive.

>>1512839
>girl has an emotional bond with her teddy
>jesus thinks she will prefer his one just cause it's bigger

is this a metaphor for penis or something?

>>1515403
It's an offering of something better that can only be received by faith in there being something better.

It's about salvation, not cannolis anon

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>>1512839
Respond to this image.

>>1514600
Or even worse, they go to Heaven, where God can sit there and torture them all he wants, and no one will be the wiser. Maybe John's visit to Heaven in the book of Revelation was more of a potemkin village situation.

>>1515446
If she had a gun she could shoot Jesus and take the big bear.

>>1512914
Some monks are smart indeed and used decades of their lives to literally research everything there is to be researched on the subject and mainly find answers or complete older obviously incomplete ones...

But problem is all the answers are built up from the premise that Jesus literally rose up from dead and he is God.

They also assume the creation myths were literally true - so Adam and Eve existed and that's the cause of death.... there are lots of errors.

>>1515446

And why is it specifically framed in an action-reward way? Don't you think that kind of exposes the human origins of Christianity and Abrahamic religion in general?

>>1515465
Yeshua does literally rise up from the dead, and is God, however is one part of God. The Trinity is but one aspect of the Complete Whole of God.

See it isn't about going to church to hear Christ came back alive 2000 years ago, it is about experiencing the Living Spirit of The Christ in the now. It is not different than Buddhist monks who believe in the Dharmakaya of Sakyamuni Buddha.

Even to assume that they all have the same idea of the Creation Story is only a biased presumption based off of an opinion. What they know outside the "take it completely literal" box is significantly more intelligent than what we are taught by the "church officials" (Pharisees) and "historical scholars" (Scribes)

>>1515457
You are assuming that you are able, competent, and willing to understand and accept such conviction. I tend to doubt that. Also, I fail to see what a GUT has to do with the above statement. Seems like fedora-tipping failue to understand categories, as usual.

>>1515489
>Yeshua does literally rise up from the dead, and is God, however is one part of God. The Trinity is but one aspect of the Complete Whole of God.

No, that's your belief, not a fact

>>1515489
The Trinity is a concept that you give credibility only trough faith.

You can not test Trinity you just have to believe in it, because other church fathers told you to believe it is so and not the other way around.

That's how arguments are constructed in the early church, and looong interesting stories are built after that - but they start from a irrational assumption with no base on reality or literal proof.

Jesus as the Jewish Messiah failed badly - Christians rationalized the events saying ... that there would be a second coming where the dead will rise up.

But alongside that, the church also developed a new religion - and entirely new and independent way of interpreting God... Christ being the embodiment of literal God and the meaning of that and the effects in our lives can be only learned from the church - otherwise there is no way for you to know that.... you see the problems all this arise?

>>1515496
So the long bearded monks that say science of the world is satanic and lead to eternal damnation are more competent?

Yea just throw random comments in form of insults and you surely won the argument.

Problem is we are all anonymous here so in real life I could just label you as stupid, but now I have to be more cautious with every Christian at least in this environment.

>>1515499
This would make everything only belief and no fact. You could show me documents upon documents of a historical figure existing and I can say "only because you believe it to be true doesn't make it a fact"

Even Pythagoras didn't "exist" because of the "lack of evidence" but the records show Christ Yeshua and Pythagoras did exist, even though they are less accounted for mysteriously after their death for some odd reason.

You can believe it is my belief, not here to argue with you or convert you.

>>1515512
The Trinity is also credible through rationalization. The Father is the Creation, not just of the Earth, not just the literal Creation story of the Bible. The Father is the Original Substance of Creation, while the Son, Christ Yeshua, the prophesied Messiah, is the Word of God, the Logos, where God manifests Himself directly through humanity to impart Wisdom and Eternal Life. The Holy Spirit, needs not to be defined but experienced for the Spirit is above all definition.

The "church father" do not teach you the Trinity, but they tell you words upon words about it, but never show you a direct path to experience it.

>you see the problems all this arise
No, I don't because those church people are not me, and the words they preach are not me. Their disputes are not me, and their war against each other are not me. Their true blasphemy is condemning each other, and is not me.

I am myself. You are yourself. You control your own being, rather than let arguments of other people influence your opinion

>>1515549
>This would make everything only belief and no fact.

No, that would make it a fallible piece of knowledge. I have no guarantee that Pythagoras' existence is a fiction, but the amount of evidence points firmly toward it being true

>>1515570
>"the amount of evidence points firmly towards it being true"

Exactly, the amount of evidence of the Resurrection of Christ is substantial enough for me to maintain by position. The evidence outside of the church are the most convincing.

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>>1515576
> the amount of evidence of the Resurrection of Christ is substantial enough for me to maintain by position

>>1515576
>Exactly, the amount of evidence of the Resurrection of Christ is substantial enough for me to maintain by position.

And not enough for me, or a lot of Christians for that matter. Many Christians view the Resurrection as poetic, not as an actual report. The differences between the four Gospels is a big indication that they may be closer to the truth than literalists like you, along with the complete absence of any evidence for it outside of the Bible

>>1515584
"Man is not responsible for the rightness of his faith but rather the uprightness of his faith."

You believe there is not enough evidence, I believe there is plenty of evidence, it is pretty well known where this conversation will go from here on out.

I will never understand why people believe a human can come from a virgin and die and come back to life after three days, based only on shoddy evidence and apocryphal accounts.

>>1515591
Christians also see the poetic and literal Resurrection and put them together. It is sentimental to believe in one and not the other.

There are no major differences in the four Gospels. There is plenty of evidence outside the Bible and the "church" when you look for it. They have more credibility than the standard views, or at least seem to.

>>1512839
Most atheists used to believe in god before they became atheist, i was a christian and i wanted to believe but i just couldnt make sense of it anymore.

>>1515597
It is more complicated than that. Civilizations were waiting for this Virgin Birth and Saviour to happen, and it did. Then, even as it was happening, they didn't believe it. This is a piece of human natures inability to see what is in front of them because of strongly held bias.

You have to look outside the books

>>1515606
Many Christians used to be atheist before they started to believe in Christ.

The best way to believe in Christ is to follow Him rather than look for Him in a specific denomination of Church that doesn't teach you anything new, but simply follows the processes it does without any change

>>1515604
>Christians also see the poetic and literal Resurrection and put them together.

No, they really don't. You might, but you come across as the typical American-evangelical zealot

>There are no major differences in the four Gospels.

False.

>There is plenty of evidence outside the Bible and the "church" when you look for it.
>when you look for it.

That's not how critical inquiry works. In research, you usually falsify, you almost never verify

>They have more credibility than the standard views, or at least seem to.

Then you should have no problem giving us a few examples

>>1515549
Rationalization is irrelevant, the stories are beautiful but irrelevant for real life or for a "meaning".

We went beyond that, now we photographiate earth from space, have world wide health care and social aid agencies - research programs where we discover the fundamental configuration of the universe and so on...

We live longer, healthier, happier - have more freedom mainly.

We have this scientific method now and mainly rational thinking to develop. W/e was funny and interesting and developed in the thousands of years of intellectual darkness now is irrelevant and only left behind for the archives.

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>>1515595
Jesus's brother Isukiri was the one that actually died, Jesus escaped Rome and returned to his Homeland.

>>1515611
First, Jesus's virgin birth account isn't unique. And second, it's a very basic fact that women require insemination to birth children and that when people die, they don't come back. If you actually believed it happened the way you think then you have to explain by what mechanisms such events would be physically possible.

>>1515597

I don't see what's so tough to understand. They believe in magic so the explanation is just 'magic'..

>>1515641
I guess the tough part is accepting that adults in modern society still believe in literal magic.

>>1515616
I don't doubt that there's cases of atheists becoming christians also. the point of that post was to attack the logic of the OP, that atheists just need to attempt belief in order for it to be revealed to them (though I'm not that poster). when christians say this and then say that ex-christians never actually believed and just didn't try hard enough it frustrates me to no end. it reminds me of when Joseph Smith "showed" his golden tablets some people already within his cult. he took them into the woods and opened the box. they saw nothing. he then chastized them for not having enough faith to see them until they finally claimed to see them too

>>1515619
>No, they really don't
Yes they really do. You see how easy it is to call someone wrong just because they have a different opinion than you do. Literal and Poetic your perception of Christians is what is stopping you from seeing the Poetic and Literal Resurrection.

>False.

"False" as in "does not agree with my opinion", please show the major differences in the four Gospels.

Here is an example ouside the church on Ressurection:

>According to Indian spiritual master Meher Baba, when Jesus was crucified, he did not die physically. But, He entered the state of Nirvikalp Samadhi (the I-am-God state without bodily consciousness). On the third day, He again became conscious of his body, and he travelled secretly in disguise eastward with some apostles, most importantly with Bartholomew and Thaddeus, to India. This was called Jesus resurrection. After reaching India, Jesus travelled further east to Rangoon, in Burma, where he remained for some time. He then went north to Kashmir, where he settled. After Jesus's spiritual work was completed, Jesus subsequently dropped his body, and the body was buried by the Two Apostles in Harvan, at Kan Yar, district of Kashmir.[49] This theory of Meher Baba was endorsed by other masters like Swamy Abhedananda, Shankaracharya, etc. Modern Research about the Tomb of Jesus by Nicholas Notovitch, Fida Hasnain, Aziz Kashmiri, James Deardoff, Mantoshe Devji etc. also approve this Gospel.

Just because it isn't canon does not make it more or less true. Actually this makes more sense, that Christ came back alive. Am I saying it is completely accurate? No. Am I saying it is heretical and false because it doesn't agree with the common church go-er? No.

>>1515620
The scientific method is one method. There are millions of other methods more efficient

>>1515621
This is but one example, it is not truth, it is not falsehood, it is not a final answer, because what it does it motivate you to think and research it for yourself

>>1515622
Actually, it isn't my field to explain how someone 2000 years ago go pregnant as a virgin. It is a great wonder the repetition of the virgin birth, how unique it is that it appears again and again throughout ancient times.

>>1515668
It isn't anyone's field to explain such a thing because such a thing doesn't happen, which is my point.

>>1515657
Perhaps God's plan for atheists is to have them not believe for a time in order to eventually reveal to them that they chose not to believe or something crazy like this.

I used to be against Christianity only to see that what I really was against the Church and not Christ and God, but then I realized my battle against the Christianity only made me ignorant. Faith over Religion, not Religion over Faith.

That Smith story reminds me of the Inquisition, where the "true Christians" killed a bunch of people when really they don't follow the teachings of Christ, who also was persecuted in the same way.

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>>1515665
>There are millions of other methods more efficient
name one

>>1515679
It is in someone's field to explain it, just not over 4chan.

It does happen though. If it didn't, it would not have kept repeating itself over and over again.

Also, virgin implies without husband/ can mean something different than what our definition in 2016 is So, if you want to believe in everyone else's opinions, you can, but if you want to change your angle on it, you can.

>>1515665
>The scientific method is one method. There are millions of other methods more efficient
I'm not a STEMfag but christ this is retarded. there is no better method for doing what science is made to do. good luck getting empirical results with a theory not grounded in empiricism (especially religion)

>>1515699
>If it didn't, it would not have kept repeating itself over and over again.

Or, like many repeating mythical motifs, such as giants, wizards, sea monsters, and dragons. These things are described in countless myths because they are explicitly fantastical and impossible.

>>1515699
Something being repeated in ignorant ancient people's mythology doesn't mean it happens. Also, you have to get past the obvious hurdle of figuring out why it's impossible today if it wasn't in the past.

>>1515687
Sit down and be quiet for ten minutes, don't speak, don't try to think anything and let the thoughts pass in front of you. Contemplate the reality of the Creator, or just feel the inner being within you.

If you can't take ten minutes out of your day to do this, then at least use the "exalted" scientific method and observe your study on meditation.

You have plenty of time to exalt science over the internet, but have you any time to sit silently

>>1515712
Meditation does not accrue new knowledge.

>>1515700
The nature of the Buddha is enough to inquire the Absolute truth without vainly using the scientific method.

>>1515709
They are not impossible, especially when you compare all of them side by side and see how they are all connected without any coincidence. They all just didn't "make it all up" all the ways across the planets continents and just have all the same conclusions in different languages

>>1515710
Calling it mythology does not mean it is actually mythological. All you have to do is get over the hurdle of cradling everyone elses assumptions and opinions and actually look for the answers yourself

>>1515715
It can. You don't need to intend to "gain" knowledge, knowledge is only one half of the brain. Insight and wisdom, abstract ideas are the other half, so not utilizing both faculties isn't knowledgeable either

>>1515686
>Perhaps God's plan for atheists is to have them not believe for a time in order to eventually reveal to them that they chose not to believe or something crazy like this.
oh so reveal it to them on Judgement Day when it is too late to repent? oh yeah just part of his plan for our personal growth.

I can tell you for sure my problem is with the religion itself, not the Church. the problems within the various organizations did not drive me from christianity. I came to no longer believe in God after trying to get closer to him through prayer and reading the bible and by researching biblical history and the origins of the texts so I could actually prove christianity and convert atheists. Instead I found evidence pointing towards it being wrong time and time again. only the fear of hellfire kept me in the religion until the pile of evidence became to great for me to deny

>>1515729
>Calling it mythology does not mean it is actually mythological
No, being mythological makes it mythological. My assumptions and opinions are hypotheses, backed up by what happens in the observable world. You made a claim, so provide the mechanisms that would make your claim possible.

>>1515729
I don't assume concepts just pop out of the aether. Giants are a pretty easy one, humans but bigger! Magic too, what if stuff that can't happen, like, happened, WHOA! Pretty easy to imagine various groups of humans arriving at ideas like these and the fact that similar concepts appear in different cultures with different cultural tapestry is not at all surprising.

The commonality of these ideas however does absolutely nothing to verify their actual existence. That's very wishy-washy "logic".

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>>1515654

You need to understand that these poor people are terrified of dying. Like little children they will believe literally anything that mollycoddles them from the truth.

They will insist that magic is real because they don't have to confront the fact that one day they will die.

>>1515744
Notice the word "Perhaps"

Even Martin Luther King was against Christianity, only to appreciate its value later on in life. That's all.

You don't need to strive to convert anyone, it is counter productive. You don't control what others think or do. Some people find the evidence of it being true, and other find evidence of it not being true, even though they do have a Christ person who did exists during the beginning of AD, the Jews called Him evil, especially in the Talmud, even though they don't have the same opinion of Him, they still recognize Him.

>>1515753
You are calling it mythology. If you stop calling it mythology, then you see that it is a really big map that your soul can use.

You also made a claim, "my assumption" "my opinion" " my hypothesis" based on the observable world, which the Spirit is above the nature of the observable world.

If you want to keep calling it mythology, then you will dismiss it as having no meaning. If you want to see it as allegories, rather than "its fake because me and science are always right religion is wrong". If you call it myth, you manifest it as myth, but back then, it was not mythology, it was purely cosmological and not separate from their science

>>1515777
>Even Martin Luther King was against Christianity, only to appreciate its value later on in life.
exactly how later in life? he was educated to be a minister and was one at a young age. his civil rights movement relied heavily on churches for mobilization

how exactly is trying to convert people counter productive assuming that christianity is true? that's just trying to save people from eternal torment. this is what christianity was founded on: evangelizing. how can you be a christian and reject the entire life mission of Paul and the apostles?

>>1515764
It doesn't discredit it as "wishy washy" either. You can verify the existence of all of this, but because you believe you can't, you will spend all day online trying to convince others that your opinion is the truth.

The flood, is in many regions which did not have airplanes to travel to tell everyone about their "made up story", different energy spheres and astrological sciences were not just made up but proven and recorded very similarly throughout these "religions"

>>1515799
What makes it any more true than any other claim of the divine? Why should I believe in God over the Tao or over Samsara?

>>1515810
No where did I deny Paul in any of my posts but rather you assumed it because something I said.

His ministry isn't counter productive, but have you noticed how when people use quotes from the Bible it only makes people less inclined to be Christians. Christians think saving people from eternal torment is by condemning them to eternal torment, when in the Truth of Christian Teachings this is extremely counter productive.

>>1515815
The bow was also invented in a bunch of different places. Floods are major features of most cradles of civilization since they tended to form around large rivers that regularly flooded. These mystical sciences also tended to take different forms even if they shared superficial similarities.

>>1512839
Belief is of little value.
God can comvince anyone at anytime, nut chooses not to.

>>1515819
Take out the word samsara in your post. Why would you separate the other two elements in the sentence, or put one over the other? That is counter productive to the vastness of both of those.

>>1515840
Let me restate myself: why should I swallow your meme over any other?

>>1515830
The great flood. But even the bow, they all just coincidentally came up the same idea? They just all somehow knew geometrical patterns coincidentally? They just all knew ancient forms or surgery and occultism coincidentally?

It is obvious something far greater is being.

>>1515457
So close to just being retarded, nails it withe thee ole' 'worshiped'.

>>1515850
It is not mine, and it is not a meme.

Your idea is that you have to put it over your beliefs or under your beliefs rather than just take a second and think about how to incorporate it without putting it over or under

>>1515852
Or that we live in a universe of set laws and forms and ideas relating to those will take similar forms because the human body and the natural world aren't substantially different in different geographies.

Also, the great flood appearing repeatedly is easy to explain: civilization develops around large rivers that make good farm land, these rivers tend to flood disastrously.

>>1515858
>It is not mine, and it is not a meme.

Yes it is, by the strict definition of a meme. It is an idea that propagates itself through individuals exchanging it.

Also, no I'm pretty fucking sure Christians want me to put their meme over others.

>>1515815
You're making a LOT of assumptions about how seriously I take this discussion and how much time I put into it. I would definitely say however that if you're trying to posit that these mythological elements have some element of truth based on their commonality that specific logic is definitely airy.

You definitely can verify whether or not magic or monsters exist but most investigation has turned up disappointing. Believe you me, I wish I could be a wizard, it just doesn't appear to be the case. Now personally I'm skeptical about the concept of dragons and if we're to be hard skeptics we also can't entirely write them off, but that doesn't mean these assertions have to be taken very seriously.

Bringing this back around, we started this line of discussion based on the concept of virgin births. These do crop up fairly frequently in many divine origin stories and I posit this is not because they happened a lot, but in fact, that they didn't happen. Similar to stories about faeries and wizards and dragons, this was proof of miracles or magic because it is very much impossible based on what even ancient people knew of the reproductive system.

>>1515862
Civilizations record the Great Flood "myth" and all just so happen to correspond the same Astrological Ideas and Spiritual Wisdom.. Not, because they lived near water, because at some point in time, civilizations recognized giants and a Great Flood, and many other of the same things esoterically, all pointing to the Original Source.

That's all, it isn't a coincidence, it just means something Higher Above is recognized in all of these civilizations and is only mythology now, even though back then it was not at all mythological but very widely and practically used.

>>1515871
The word, meme, is going to stop you more than it is going to help you.

You think Christians want you to put their ideas over your own, but because you keep thinking that way, that is how it returns to you.

>>1515883
>You think Christians want you to put their ideas over your own

No I'm pretty sure this is what every major church thinks. Try to approach an orthodox or catholic priest or fuck, even some weirdo protestant minister about your syncretic beliefs relating to Buddha and you will be strictly reminded that is in fact, heresy.

I don't have a problem with other people's spiritual beliefs, I have some myself despite how irrational they might be. However, when you have a dogmatic religion like Christianity which accepts nothing but total and complete acceptance of their thinking you are indeed going to run into some issues. As a couple thousand years of religious wars will attest.

>>1515877
They used the "mythology" back then as a practical usage, and it is not called mythology back then, it is their religion and science. Egyptians were not stupid enough to believe in mythology, they were smart enough to recognize divine entities that played a wide role in their development.

Dragons, wizards, that is not up to me to say what to believe on that or not, but the magic of the wizards and the dragons, these are repeated throughout many cultures, not just from some delusional 4chan-er or something like that. Even records of cultures expecting a Virgin Birth and the records of Virgin Births, can not be denied just because it is transcending known science, but can be, at the very least partially accepted due to their being recorded.

>>1515470
(1/2)

>And why is it specifically framed in an action-reward way?
As opposed to a insta-reward way? Where even the content on destruction are given salvation?

Are you sure you know what you're asking?

Look, the nature of the world is to oppress man, man oppresses his brother by sinning against him. So who was Jesus talking to and what was His message? He was talking to the ones sick and tired of the oppression. He was teaching them the secrets that the world and the flesh use to oppress, how the world and flesh engineer the act of sin against another, sin which creates the oppression against the individuals soul, which will in turn get that individual receiving soul into the same exact bondage of sin as their oppressor. The whole Bible teaches this and exposes it as a virus that spreads. Now Jesus taught that love, which is what God is, which is what Christ was as a man, he taught that love , which again is God, so he's essentially teaching that God/Love is how the oppression is not only defeated, but it was defeated from beginning of creation, but that God/Love is how the oppression ends. Now what makes this so significant is that the Pharisee's/Preachers, the "religious" leaders of those times, we're not willing to understand this, every time God tried to explain this through a prophet, the Israelite's would kill the prophets of the old testament because these Israelite's enjoyed participating in evil, the gentiles had no idea about this truth either, they feasted on consumption of people and war for expansion and slavery in the name of idols. They actually believed life is about enslavement and exploitation. To this day men of power believe this.

>>1515828
you did by saying my attempt to convert people was counter productive. all these attempts at convert by saying people are going to hell and quoting bible verses is exactly why I tried to make a better way, more honest, more intellectual. I couldn't find it. the reason most preachers use emotion is because that's the only way to christianity

>>1515887
Stop looking to the church for answers. God is not separate from you. Those people are the Pharisees. Christ tells us "It is not just about the bread", and the church says "You need to eat our bread and associate with us or else you will go to hell". That is not what Christ teaches.

Christ is a heretic to the Jews, and heretic is only a word, like calling a smart person stupid, it has no value and serves only as an insult. Who is the church to decide who is a heretic or not? Why are other peoples opinions more important than direct spiritual revelation? They aren't. Christianity isn't about believing every single word the church tells you to believe, that is mind control. Christ teaches something way more important than the church will teach you.

>>1515912
I learned this recently. Don't preach Christianity, teach Christianity. I have a hard time converting people, so I stop intending to convert them, because my relationship to God is more important than "saving everyone else", especially when struggling to save myself.

>>1515894
Well of course, if I implied that myths as we know them today were always treated as myths that's my fault for being unclear. I was saying that these motifs regarding magical events like virgin births crop up because they were in some way considered proof of divinity or magic or whatever else.

What I dispute is that because these ideas crop up a lot that does anything to verify that they might have actually happened. As we understand things today, magic and virgin births doesn't real. Sperm has to inseminate the egg and that usually only happens one way. The only alternative is magic which also fails to stand up to scrutiny.

Maybe magic is real, maybe a couple people really were pushed out of an unsullied cunt. Not very many good reasons to believe either from where I'm standing though.

>>1515938
The sperm inseminating the egg is also magic. So is the egg being fertilized without the sperm.

>>1515470
(2/2)
So this action reward sytem you're inaccurately accusing as something sinister or as an attempt to control people, is simply this- 'Love because you are already loved from above'. The reward is salvation, a life without sin and oppression. That's the big teddy bear. But God, the creator will take His and give the people who enjoy the sin and oppression to their father. Now that final statement is far fetched in the mind of the unbeliever, but only because he takes his safety for granted out of arrogance. Not knowing that Love is a concept to be chosen, which translates as God is to be chosen. Man didn't create the concept of love, it exists as a choice for us. You can easily ignore it and choose hate if inclined. But the same way a baby takes his bottle for granted and cires when it's removed, so will be the day when God/Love is no longer with a soul.

So the "action reward"-- it only opposes oppression. It amazes me every time that people blindly accuse all this as an attempt to control people when people already have free will and freely choose to oppose this advice.

Not only that, but governments seek more control over people than the word of God, but because people are happy in the cage and bondage they are given into, they find being told not to sin far more restrictive.

That narrative hasn't changed since the time of the Israelite's, which I don't think is a coincidence.

>>1512839
Then God is a fucking douche

>>1515929
if you don't have enough good reasons to believe to even attempt to convert people without losing faith yourself why should you believe it in the first place?

>>1515963
Don't be so offended anon, study Him as you would study any great interest.

>>1515979
Good reason is to believe in God. Attempting to convert people does not make me lose faith myself, not attempting to convert people is at least considering the value of the person's rationalization even if they don't agree, for it is in God's place to truly convert someone, and for people to give ideas to help people make this process a little easier.

>>1515979
Not that anon, but the lack of knowledge about God and Christ in the world can be overwhelming. Plus the ones who do understand, they have a fight too. It's rough man. Choppy waters for real, but whats the saying? A calm sea never made a skilled sailor? I like that..

>>1515549
>This would make everything only belief and no fact.
Not really. The evidence for the supernatural events of the bible is either low-quality christard apologia, or so thin as to be practically non-existent.

More pertinently the only non-christian source you have for the supposed resurrection is a copy made of a portion of a manuscript by Eusebius and he isn't reliable for obvious reasons.

>>1516011
I heard some advice about how we should walk it thoroughly and be an example, like when people ask what is in us that has us with so much life and joy and what have you, we tell them. But be encouraging always, avoid debates and arguments etc etc

The proud and arrogant though, I don't know how to get through with them. I don't think they'll understand until they truly know what hunger is. Was it Isiah or Jeremiah that said , some will be tried like gold through the fire to be purified? Never mind it's mentioned all through the book lol

>>1512839
Over time i am becoming more and more convinced that faith is some kind of mental disorder

>>1516033
Every belief is just a thought one holds on to. Not believing in supernatural is a belief not a truth, belief in the supernatural is a belief not a truth.

Luckily for all of us, this is the internet where you don't need to take what people say literally, or you could take opinions as facts.

Putting it into a reasonable perspective at the very least.

>>1516060
I don't see how faith in love, justice, and perfection could even come remotely close to being classified as a mental disorder.

Given the variety that's perceivable in physical reality, to think it all means nothing, that on a grand scale our actions mean nothing....I won't call that a mental disorder, but it definitely denotes limitation.

>>1516060
This is an example.

If one chooses to believe in the thought pattern, faith over time equals stronger mental disorder, than faith, in this persons experience will, over time, calculate as a mental disorder.

All it is, we hold on to what we have in our minds.

I could say not having faith over time makes someone stupid, so every time I see a non-believer I think they are stupid, but that is a false idea. Every non-believer has the potential to transform themself

>>1516098

>I don't see how faith in love, justice, and perfection could even come remotely close to being classified as a mental disorder.

Neither does the average ISIS terrorist who beheads infidels to achieve it

>>1516098
Of course you dont. You are so deep in your own ass you can never see clearly again

>>1516103
No i makes no sense to say not having faith is a mental disorder.
You can say it but you would be wrong.

I dont believe in magic.

>>1516112
All it is are thoughts you keep affirming, becoming stronger in the mind because you exercise them in that way.

If you everyday said Faith is Good, 20 to 30 days later, Faith is Good, and you believe it, and the world around you proves it to you, because your mind is a powerful too. If for 30 or 40 years you think "Faith is a mental disorder" than you will manifest people who have misguidance in their faith (Christians who believe they are in power to decide who goes to Heaven and Hell) and you will only encounter reasons to believe faith is a mental disorder.

That is the power of your mind.

>>1512843
you have to believe in him to think he's real

ok.

>>1516104
Lol because that's the same thing...

>>1516128
I was neutral on faith it was an its not for me thing.
I affirm nothing i wait and watch.
The further down the faith hole you people go the less sense it makes. The less i can see myself justifying faith. I know what it would take to amke faith fact its a very simple direct line but faith always Falls short.


Its not some mantra thats what faith is. You are so far down you cant even comprwhend not having it.

>>1516150
It is.

>>1516154
Faith is stronger than falling short. Without faith, there is fear.

Faith is strength, and weakness is the absence of faith. Faith is applied in all manners, it is not some "faith hole", that is an unsuitable affirmation that you choose to believe.

Anything you set out to do, you have faith that you will accomplish success, otherwise you lack the necessary drive that is the faith itself.

>>1512839
Because it's a really fucking stupid idea that by simply belief means anything at all.

>>1516160
Only if you forfeit discernment. Which in general, I wouldn't recommend. And probably the source of ISIS itself. Which would mean forfeiting discernment for inaccurate generalizations is just as dangerous and careless.

>>1516199
Your belief is very powerful, any belief you have is powerful.

Like, you believe that belief is a stupid idea. How does that belief manifest in your experience?

>>1516182
I could just write 'for you' and that would rebut everything you just wrote.

But i wont.
Fiath is not applied in all manners. You are misappropriating the word. I do not mean the coloqual faith in oneself of your family thats not faith at all. I refer only to faith as it pertains to gods.
No god can be proven everyone knows that you must make a leap of faith and fall down the faith hole.
Faith is unsuitable for a healthy mind.

>>1516201
All faith is inaccurate. All religions are dabgerous.

>>1516209
Faith is applied in all manners.

>I refer only to faith as it pertains to gods

1.

Faith - complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction;

Faith goes into anything as a strong belief for something. You have faith that gods/God cant be proven, and with that strong belief, you wont find the evidence to disprove it because you simply have no motivation to do so.

Faith is good for a healthy mind, and this thought manifests faith as good. If you have faith that faith is bad for a healthy mind, then the mind will go out of its way to prove that faith is bad.

You see how strong your faith is in faith being unhealthy, that faith and that belief manifest themselves because that is just a thought you keep choosing to think.

>>1516213
According to opinion, but faith is outside of religion, very well outside of religion.

>>1515883
>all just so happen to correspond the same Astrological Ideas and Spiritual Wisdom

But they don't. They have some superficially similar ideas, but they're not the same. Taoist alchemy is not western alchemy for instance.

>>1516213
The only thing inaccurate is believing that "danger" is limited to "religion." Ambition can be dangerous. The exploitation of weaker nations for their resources, creating enemies when other wise there would be none, all in the name of money and global leverage. And you compare ISIS to Christianity, nah man.

>>1516234
Alchemy does not need any adjective before it, that defeats a wide range of alchemical thought and creativity. Regardless, the cultures have more similarities than differences.

>>1516245
Oh fuck right off, you wishy-washy new ager. You just refuse to confront the reality of your beliefs.

>>1516254
I feel like you reacted rather than responded

>>1516224
Are you trying to make the atheism is a religion argument?

Like insaid ibam not talking about faith inthe colloquial as it is not really faith.
You family has been there in the past and they will be in the future you have no reason to doubt that.
All the forms of faith other than religious fsith have some sort of history or prerequisite for continued acceptance.

The religious version does not. Ibam simply defining the terms in a more nuanced an intelegent waybthan younare.

I just realized that is how you justify faith. You conflate all possible definitions and trest them a s the same when they sre not.
As i said before you are so deep in the faith hole you cant even see a world without it.

>>1512839
Well, my take is He doesn't let Himself get known by but a few, from time to time, because of God proved His existence, everybody would fake being good and all that to get in to Heaven, because it would be confirmed to exist. This way, we can choose to act good or bad, without "that much pressure".

>>1516244
Yes but we are talking about this now. No point in deflecting. Middle eastern religions are all the dame branch of violent tom foolery.
Just because you arent doing it now does not mean you cant and havent .

>>1516089
How in the fuck is this horseshit supposed to be even a vaguely effective response to what I posted here >>1516033
?

You are aware that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim? Even more so when you are making claims of what essentially boils down to magic of one sort or another.

>>1516265
You should be ashamed to be so stupid. And to worship a god that is so stupid.

>>1516260
Atheism is not a religion, following Christ is not a religion. Religion is a word that causes people to belief in their presumptions of the words that come after it.

All Faith is Trust, outside of religion. Saying faith only works religiously is false because you have faith in many other things outside of religious concepts. All faith is the same force that is trust.

You are defining words based on your own definition, not giving the words the opportunity they deserve. You have faith, that faith only applies the way you believe it to be so.

There is no world without Faith, and there is no such thing as a "faith hole", rather only propaganda that Faith has some negative connotation, because someone believes faith to be a subjective definition based off of their own experience, rather than open up the feeling that Faith is supposed to be, outside of a limiting definition

>>1516276
Furthermore,

>>Not believing in supernatural is a belief not a truth
This is nonsense, a lack of a belief in something is not a belief in and of itself. I mean, claiming otherwise is basically like claiming that bald is a hair color.

>>1516276
Why are you asking someone on the internet to make proof? You are looking for a piece of paper, signed by someone you agree with saying "It is true, now you can believe in it"

No claims are being made. It is the internet where people discuss ideas, and rather than listen, people call others wrong so they can feel smarter about their own beliefs that they keep on choosing to believe.

>>1516284
Oh look, the new age retard is playing wordgames.

>>faith means what I say it means faith = trust!

Yeah dude? You're a faggot, and if one of my friends claimed that his dog could carry out conversations with him I wouldn't believe that claim no matter how much I might trust him other wise.

>>1516286
All beliefs can change. If someone strongly believes that supernatural things are fake, then when someone also says supernatural things are fake, that person speak the "truth"

The same with people who believe in the supernatural, someone else has the same idea as them, the both speak the "truth"

No one wants to prove these things for themselves, so they trust other people, and no one wants to admit they are wrong and know absolutely nothing because it makes them feel inferior.

>>1516284
I just explained to you the diffrence between them. Religious faith and colloquial faith are different, by definition. Thiugh you have cinfirmed thats hiw you justify having faith thank you.

I define words on the actual definition and explained the reasoning. You just wont accept it because it defeats your reasoning.

faith
fāTH/Submit
noun
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
"this restores one's faith in politicians"
synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
2.
strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, (religious) persuasion, (religious) belief, ideology, creed, teaching, doctrine
"she gave her life for her faith"

One and two are not the same.

>>1516279

Ok, NEET. I guess you're the leading expert on shame, after all.

>>1516292
>>Why are you asking someone on the internet to make proof?
Because without some sort of verification/falsification people like you and the retarded faggot who made this thread can claim whatever they fucking please and shit up the board as they will.

>>1516296
By definition, faith is also synonymous to trust. Your definition of faith is only for spiritual matters, but all faith is faith, a trust in something. I could have faith that instead of making fun of people online, you could actually learn something from them.

>>1516307
See you are so dumb you dont even understand the repercussion of your original statement. Either that or you religion had made you callous.

>>1516304
All faith is faith. If it is religious faith, it is faith. If it is faith in a person, it is still faith.

Both definitions are true, I agree with you that faith is religious, and faith is also non-religious. It is synonymous for trust.

1 and 2 are the same, they work very well together to define what faith is, both in spiritual matters and non-spiritual matters.

You can have faith that they are different, you can have faith that they are the same

>>1516308
You asking me for proof is like me asking you to stop letting your anger over the computer get out of control

>>1516318
I honestly could not care less what you think. I will not change my opinion and you won't, either. There's no point in was eachother's time with boring old retort. Call me what you want, if it makes your virgin pathetic self feel better, I realy don't care.

>>1516324
No all faith is not 'faith'. This is demonstrably false.

I have shown this. You just are unwilling to accept. This is the kind of faith i was talking about. The faith hole.
I dont have to have faith there are litterly 2 definition with 2 diffrent meanings i even explained how they were diffrent a couple of posts back.
There is no faith here i dont need it.

>>1516337
I just want you to examine the implications of what you wrote. I dout you have. You seem like that kind of person

>>1516351
I honestly don't care what you think you "see" in me. You're a worthless NEET with a chip on your shoulder. Your opinion has no intrinsic value to me.

>>1516341
All faith is faith. This is demonstrably true

Faith by definition means Faith in Spiritual matters, and Faith also applies in Not Spiritual matters.

You have faith that you are right, that is not religious faith, but it is still faith. You have faith that there is a "faith hole".

Both definitions of Faith are definitions of Faith. The meanings are different but mean the same thing. You have faith in Doctrine? That means you trust the doctrine. You have faith in a person? You trust that person. Both definitions of faith are definitions of the word faith, making them both mean Faith

You have faith there is no faith, you have faith that you don't need faith.

I have faith there is faith, I have faith that we need faith.

>>1516359
Why would you think call some one you dont know a NEET is an effective insult?
No ones opinion has intrinsic value it lies on merit. Or are you just using the word untrunsic wrong?

>>1516269
>Yes but we are talking about this now.
Don't worry, it's all relative...

>No point in deflecting my inaccurate generalizations
But there is, it's that very inability to discern and give accurate generalizations that causes ill-logic and irrational responses. Basically, you have to know what you're talking about before hand. And no, I haven't done anything comparable and don't plan on to. I mean we can cover everyone in this thread with all the blankets your supplying bro.

>>1516365
No man i demonstrated otherwise. I wven predectied how you would defend faith my conflating the 2 different definitions.
Enough stop stop telling me i have faith when i ckearly dont. This is the atheists have faith argument for a diffrent angle. You are hopeless.
Though at least you admit that you cant cincueve of a world with out faith and thus painting your intractable bias.
Its pointless though you wont listen. Thats what faith holes do.

>>1516393
Faith means trust in a person. Faith also means trust in God. There is no difficulty. You have faith that you are right, because you choose to think the same thoughts and allow your own beliefs to become stronger. That is faith. Your "faith hole" is only making you fall deeper into your own "faith hole", because you have faith that faith only means what you want it to

>>1516373
You are a NEET, are you not?

>>1516414
No since adulthood i have never been without work. Well except that year and a half i did nothing but school

>>1516427
That doesn't make you not NEET.

>>1516438
It literally does by definition

>>1516403
No dude no. When i can tell you how you are going to argue before you do you lose, bit i will humor you.
The definitions implactions provide all the difficulty one needs. You just dont listen.
You trust people because they behave in ways that demonstrate trustworthiness. You trust that a randome stranger wont mug you because you assume they eill uphold the social contract as almost all other humans. You have faith in your family because they have always been there for you and there is no reason they wont continue to be.
You cam have none of this with god you have to have faith before you can even posit a god. You may be one of those crazies that thinks god talks to him. But you have to have faith before any interaction. Thats the diffrence. Faith in humans is a aposteriori faith in god a priori.
Though you may he so far into you faith hole god has always existed to you.

I have done a very good explaoning this. I dont exowct you to take it to heart because you cant. The conflation of both definitions seems to be a very important component to your belief.

>>1516489
Faith can be in spiritual matter and in non spiritual matters. Very easy. The definition of faith defines the spiritual version and non spiritual version.

They both mean faith.

You have a lot of faith in your opinion

>>1516516
Yes it can but i explained the considerable differences. Can you rebut those?
No there is no faith here
Have you no other rebuttal other than that? Even though i have clearly demonstrated otherwise?
(That question is rhetorical)

>>1516540
You have faith in your opinion. Faith relates to spiritual and non spiritual. It is just that easy

"Faith" is apparently the end-all be-all get out of jail free word, simultaneously means all virtue and wisdom.

>>1516556
I already agreed that you can use the word that way.
Do you have anything else?
How does it feel to lose an argument so fully?
One so important to you as well.
You cant even concede without it shaming your reason for faith.
And it was on The internet of all places.
All you can do is turtle because not replyong and ketting it go would would wound your faith.
Its a sad kind funny.

>>1516582
There is no loss. Faith means spiritual and non spiritual, and the other side said "faith means what I think it means only spiritual"

I don't understand the insult, or why you think I lost an argument or you won an argument. What you think is sad is only a reflection of how your feeling deep down. The same with the faith hole, it only exists because you believe in it so much, meaning everything you think people with faith are trapped, you see yourself trapped in a similar paradigm.

Not trying to be nasty or rude, but you only think you won because you want someone to agree with you, and that person is yourself, exalting yourself like you win, but you are only agreeing with yourself

>>1516600
I dod win he has no rebuttals.
I am honestly just rubbing it i his face so he will fuck off since he wont concede like a man.
The faith hole exists the other guy demonstrated that.
Read the whole string i dont think you did.

You did not read the whole thing or did not understand it. I know je wont agree with me. I said as much.

>>1515595
>ough evidence, I believe there is plenty of evidence, it is pretty well known where this conversation will go from here on out.

So what is this evidence? Third hand testimony?

>>1516621
You can have faith in God very easy and with faith, God proves Himself to you. Without faith, this does not happen.

Faith is trust in belief. Faith is applicable to non-spiritual matters as well.

um not shur wat ur explainon caus it is nut fun to read wen ur point is postud like dis mk I won elol

Like come on dude, at least be somewhat grammatical. I don't even know what point you are trying to prove anymore or what your saying because you are intentionally trying to not make any sense.

By confusing someone, you come off as being smart, but you only babble on non sense, no offense

>>1516632
You can only live life in first hand experience. I wouldn't feel so strongly for believing someone else's revelations and someone's commentary of those revelations, and neither should you.

I like how you dug that one out all the way back from four hours ago.

>>1516641
Just stay out if it i am not going to type all that crap on a phone again. You are repeating the same shit he did.

You just dont comprehend thats your problem. He had a ton of stuff to unpack it git complicated.

I will leave you with this. They maybe the same word but they are nit the same thing
Faith in people is a posteriori and faith in god is a priori. Thats a fundemental diffrence

>>1516666
I comprehend that it is an attempt to persuade someone else their opinion is true, via faith. They have faith they are right and everyone else is wrong.

They are the same thing. Faith is trust. You can trust in people, you can trust in God.

It is a fundamental similarity, because all Faith is Faith

>>1516641
>God proves Himself to you
This is called delusion.
This will never convince anyone other than yourself.
Just saying.

>>1516678
No thats not al all whats going on.
His faith wont allow him to listen.
No all faith is not faith they are fumdementally different.
He understood,you are dumber than he is so i doubt you will.
Read my last post I tell you exactly how they are very diffrent.

>>1516678
Technically it is impossible to trust in God because he doesn't exist.
You are actually "trusting" in yourself via self-hypnosis (prayer) or your church's authority figure.
So technically all trust is between human beings as real agents.

>>1516681
>This is called delusion
The problem with the mind is that if it believes it is a delusion, than it can only manifest it as being a delusion. That is why faith is more important, because if you have faith it isn't a delusion, it does not manifest as a delusion.

The only person you can convince is yourself, you don't see from the perspective of others.

Just saying, if you ask God for something honest in prayer, and you receive that prayer in detail, and cyclically it works out that God is literally manifesting Himself in your experience, then you can say with total belief that God is real, and "God" is a limiting terms for both believers and non-believers.

>>1516698
That is exactly what is going on.

"I believe this and you have to, I will convince you my opinion is right" because "I have faith in my opinion that I hold so strongly"

All Faith is Faith. Faith is Trust, in a person, in God, in circumstances, if it can be categorized as Faith, it is Faith.

Your post isn't the most credible source of information, and calling someone an insult doesn't further your argument and make you more right.

>>1516702
>That is why faith is more important, because if you have faith it isn't a delusion, it does not manifest as a delusion.
It's categorically the exact same thing with identical thought process.
You are somehow convincing yourself to affirm some statement.
If the statement is objectively false then you are delusional.
The magic word "faith" can't make false things be true.

>>1516714
I am not trying to further anything. You just proved to me that you dont understand where the other guy did. I am not going to have the exact same argument that i just had. Read the string and fuck off.
Its not confusong you are just slow.

>>1516701
Technically it is possible to trust God because He does exist.

I can trust in God because of the proof that manifests in my experience, but it took a lot more than "I believe I said it where are you God". When it turns out the soul is originated from God, and that the signs you are looking for are in front of you, you start to open up your heart

Even when not in prayer, and you don't need a church authority to confirm this for you. You have to do it yourself.

It takes level of surrender and learning in order to actually find God and the agents of God, the "angels", which is also a limiting term. Otherwise, you will only trust in your strongly held beliefs and what other people have to say, and never yourself.

>>1516720
Faith is trust, so you can trust in God, and watch God reveal Himself to you. You can trust in a person, and watch them come through for you.

If you doubt God, if you doubt a person, your doubt manifests into "God didn't come through for me" or "This person screwed me over"

>>1516732
I trust my own insight over someone who can't control their anger over a keyboard.

>>1516744
Why would i he angry? If this short exchange is any indication your insights will be shallow
Dont use that as a cop out for not being able or willing to understand. It is possible to fathom it it was done in this thread already.

>>1516734
Ultimately your philosophy is self-indulgent, you are only tricking yourself, so as long as you are not blowing up abortion clinics or beheading infidels, it doesn't matter to me what you believe.

Importantly though you ought to know for your own sake that it's not very convincing, "if you open your heart to god" is the silliest emotional appeal you could make. At the very least if you realized this it would help you not post /x/ tier "surrender to god" bullshit on this board.

>>1516751
Why being willing to understand someone who is not willing to understand? Everyone is "Oh but that anon says this why don't you listen", perhaps it is because that person does not listen to what I'm saying. Everything is in balance.

Telling someone to f off and calling them dumb makes people listen to you less, some friendly advice. It isn't a cop out, I am just caring less for what they have to say because they care about being right and they care about insulting people. That is someone I don't want to listen to.

>>1514990
I grew up a devout Christian but the more I learned, the more I found out what I had been told was plainly false, the less I could believe until I simply stopped believing.

At the prime point of my confusion, my faith and the science telling me it was wrong, I prayed. I prayed for God to tell me what to do. To give me a sign, no matter how small, that He was real and loved me. That despite all the facts to the contrary the Bible was correct. And utter peace washes over me when I finished my prayer, I felt so content, like a massive burden was lifted off me. And my faith went with it.
Now I would explain that scientifically of course. The weight of sin and salvation and Christianity and my family's expectations and disapproval became irrelevant to me, that big weight of my faith left right then, and my brain released a TON of endorphins.
And maybe you want to explain that religiously. But then why did the peace I felt come with atheism? Surely if God were a loving God he would not take my faith along with my stress, damming me to eternal hellfire?

>>1516758
It is not my philosophy, and its indulgence is the Self. I am not trying to convince anyone, just holding my ground. If you open your heart to God, then you manifest a willingness to learn, and if you think you can't open up your heart to God because it is silly, it will manifest that way.

If you want to categorize something as "/x/ tier" it only applies on this website, and it is has no wisdom or value to it whatsoever. Surrender to God has been going on and recorded since time immemorial, and that is a key to understanding, not some bs "meme tier kek" philosophy

>>1516764
I dont care i am not trying to engage.
I dont want to have the same conversation again with some one who seems like they dont have the head to follow what i am saying.
Had you responded more knowledgeablely to in the earlier exchamges or actually read the damn string maybe i would be more polite, but i dont feel like it.

>>1516744
>If you doubt God, if you doubt a person, your doubt manifests into "God didn't come through for me"

If you don't believe in god you wouldn't then create the character to assign "doubt", you would attribute the circumstances to whatever phenomena you assume exists instead.

But if you believe in a God but are confronted with daily evidence that God ignores you, then I feel some of the doubt ought to be transferred onto whoever convinced you of this god in the first place, rather than continue to assign the doubt to the fictional character.

Again, this is delusional, in truth you would be better served placing the "doubt" at the feet of the responsible party rather than the imaginary character. It's more healthy to not treat fictional things as real because then your perceptions will more closely line up with reality.

>>1516784
I follow what your saying, but I slowly care less for it, no offense, but there isn't really any argument here anymore.

Maybe next time you want to share ideas you wont insult people to attempt to prove your point.

>>1516775
I know your argument was a tautology to begin with, what I am trying to show you is that is a shamefully stupid thing to be flaunting around claiming to be wisdom.

>>1516798
I told you i dont care.
You arent giving me advice because i am not intrested in exchanging ideas with you.

That and you don't understand. Its easy to see by early responses.

>>1516796
If you don't believe in God, then you manifest no evidence for God's existence.

If you believe in God, you manifest God. The "God ignores you" usually means you are asking for way too much, and if you compared your merits with your desire you would see that you actually have no merit, and no right to ask for all this "stuff" you think you need.

It is like me asking for a hundred dollars but having no job or willingness to go to work. Put in the hours, receive the paycheck. If you are asking God for ego desires to be fulfilled, it is likely He will "ignore" your request because you don't want God, you want what your ego wants.

It is delusional to say God doesn't exist because "He didn't answer me". We are responsible for what we receive and must fulfill conditions and requirements to receive things.

You can believe God is fictional, and it will manifest in your experience that way.

However, when you accept God is real, you can watch how the manifestations of your life start to change dramatically.

>>1516804
If you want someone to listen, be kind. If you want to make fun of someone and their ideas, be prepared to be made fun of and have your own ideas called stupid.

>>1516814
You are not interested in exchanging ideas but continue to respond, waiting to call me out on something.

>>1516821
>If you believe in God, you manifest God.
Finally something we an agree on.

>>1516821
Or you can take all the good luck that comes your way and blindly believe it was because God did it rather than it being blind luck or your own skill or judgement that caused something good to pass.

Why are so many successful people faithless? So many faithful success less?

>>1516830
Call you out on what?
Do you even know what you are talking about.

I mean warching you in this thread aparently not.

>>1516838
God manifests Himself to non-believers->>1512839->>1512867 as well

>>1516840

OR I can recognize how skill and ability of self, and grace and power of God, how these two work together as one. Why trust in luck or chance when you have God and your self?
>Why are so many successful people faithless? So many faithful success less?
Why are so many successful people faithful? Why are so many success-less people without faith?

See how easy it is to write an opinion as if there is anything to hold it together?

>>1516844
It just seems like you keep saying "oh im not interested I don't care" when the opposite is very apparent by your response that you do care and you want to be right about something I mean it is natural

>>1516854
We already concluded that people manifest god for themselves, he doesn't actually exist.

>>1516866
You concluded that by your own perception and opinion.

No perception is final. No "conclusion" has nothing coming after it

God exists without people believing in Him. You manifest God's revelation with will, not with denial.

>>1516861
You are out of touch. I havent mentioned my arguments in several posts.
Seriously what argument am i making.

>>1516880
Out of touch with what you have to say, yes, and that makes me feel better.

>>1516885
I dont think your breain works all the time does it?

>>1516854
Significantly more people who are rich are not practices of any religion.
Significantly more poor people are religious.

Could it be that inability to control your life leads to blind faith in the hope they can alleviate their meek status in life?

>>1516874
>God exists without people believing in Him
False, gods are the idea of applying human-like qualities and agency to natural phenomena, they are categorically a product of human imagination and do not actually exist.

You can imagine a world with no sentient life forms, would there be a Jesus or Odin or Brahma character if the societies that created them never existed? Of course not. Therefor gods are aspects of human thoughts, not objectively extant entities.

>>1516880
Only to some degree it makes me feel better. I don't even know which anon you are.

Also, it isn't like what you have to say is not important at all

->>1516885

>>1516866
He will never understand what you are getting at.

>>1512842
No it doesnt. It would just mean your god is a cosmic prankster. Also there are so many gods, how do we know to trust Jesus over Krishna?

4 Chan has too many religious nuts

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>>1516890
Strictly speaking I should say the the Gods would still be known by archaeological records even if no one living presently worshiped them, I suppose. It depends on the strict definition of "exist" means, but I think we all get the point.

>>1516889
It doesn't matter how much wealth you have. Some religious people I have seen are very wealthy, so it is just a stereotype.

Many people give up their possessions to pursue God, many people have no possessions until they meet God.

>>1516890
>False
"False because your opinion is different than mine" is essentially what you are saying. God outside the imagination and personification is God. God does not need people to create Him, God's very substance is Source, which is the Supersoul, and each of us is an individual soul.

Brahma, Odin, and Christ Yeshua would still exist. Human thoughts are extents of human thoughts, God is not from the human mind, the human mind comes from God.

The universal phenomena and personifications of God are minor explanations of a Force that is unable to be defined, which is also simultaneously called God, The Father.

>>1516892
Good, because there is no use in believing a lie.

>>1516908
Nigga name one person who was rich and gave it away in the last 50 years to pursue God.

>>1516913
What other people do is not my business.

>>1516908
>source
>supersoul
>Force that is unable to be defined
>God, The Father.

None of this actually exists, though.

>Brahma, Odin, and Christ Yeshua would still exist.
Factually false.

>>1516920
Ok so you're just talking out your ass because nobody actually does that.
You know if Christians actually followed the Bible they'd all be communists. Jesus wasn't exactly cryptic in how he said you should handle money.

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>>1516892
What did he mean by this?

>>1516924
Source is the original cause, with infinite causes before it. Before the Big bang. Human life is an extension of Source, and Source is a cause to humanity, the effect. The Supersoul, God The Father, the undefinable Force does exist. It is all synonymous, and readily available to one whose consciousness has prepared for it.

They all exist, otherwise, there would be no knowledge of them, and no contact with them.

The unbelief means there is no effort to understanding the phenomena, while belief is only the beginning to understanding.

>Factually false.
I think the problem here is that they DO exist, hence the records about these beings being written. If it was factually false, we wouldn't even be talking about any of it right now, because there would be no knowledge of any of those names. You brought them up because they exist to some degree.

>>1516935
I think you are misunderstanding it

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>>1516913

See. Its a protestant thing. They believe that their favor with God makes them wealthy, yet ignoring the Bible's statements about how wealth can be an impediment to getting into heaven.

Hell... Protestants willfully ignore the usury rules and I'm sure there are millions of wealthy protestants with interest bearing bank accounts.

To be be fair, Catholics are guilty of this too.

Only the Russian Orthodox seem to care about the usury rules set forth in the Bible.

>>1516950
I think you like many orge Christians just ignore that whole "give all you are able, sell all your positions and follow me, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is a rich man to enter heaven, give all to God keep only enough to buy yourself food and a sword" part of Jesus's teachings so they can engage in luxuries like TV, Internet, expensive or unhealthy foods, sports cars and big lavish houses.
Jesus said be poor and give. I don't know too many Christians who give more than their Catholic mandated 10%. I know a lot of poor Christians, but they're not poor cause they want to be.

>>1516966
Rope* not camels. Who cares, catholic, orthodox, gnostic, protestant, they are all Christian. Having wealth is not a sin. Having too much wealth, with greed, is.

I know a lot of rich Christians, and who cares if they have more money than I do, God didn't make us to judge other people, and God blesses people with prosperity when the circumstances call for it.

The mind of God is not the mind of men

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>>1516984

Having any wealth while millions of other men suffer and still haven't heard the word of God is a complete and utter sin.

>>1516984
Accruing wealth is literally against all of Jesus's teachings on wealth. Find me one where he says you can keep excess money. I can't find any, I can only find him saying be poor and give to other Christians and feed evangelizers and sell all the stuff you don't need to survive.

Everything. Everything Christian about keeping wealth is made up bullshit not supported by Scripture.

>>1516947
>readily available to one whose consciousness has prepared for it
>belief is only the beginning to understanding.

Herein lies the ultimate problem with your philosophy, belief is a prerequisite to the belief. Again this is a tautology and not convincing, I can once again state for the record that none of those things exist (technically they do not qualify as phenomena since they have not occurred, they could be more accurately called "hypothetical concepts" or more broadly "ideas") with impunity, your only rebuttal is to blame me for not agreeing with you on utter fiat faith.

>I think the problem here is that they DO exist
They exist because of real historical cultures that invented them.
I was illustrating a hypothetical world in which no sentient beings ever lived. In that world any specific god would not exist, not even the idea of the god would exist, because there would be no think to have the idea. Hense it is clear by this example gods are products of sentient imaginations. You incorrectly stated that in such a world those gods would still exist, which would be impossible.

>>1516995

Speaking of which why haven't you given most of your money for missionary work in Saudi Arabia? That place could use a few good Christian Churches.

>>1516984
According to Jesus any man who keeps wealth while there are widows or orphans going hungry, homeless, or those who haven't heard the Word is committing a grievous sin worthy of damnation.
Until everyone is fed, clothed, housed, armed and a Christian, Jesus said keeping money is bad.

>>1516999
It isn't my philosophy, it is everyones.

I think believing it doesn't exist is denying ancient historical and cosmological evidence, which is denial of archaeological findings and discoveries which doesn't seem at all intelligent.

They exist because they came into being and are recorded forms of phenomena.

You illustrated a hypothetical scenario on the internet which has no value compared to all the ancient texts which line up with eachother way more than someone on the internet and their opinion.

>>1516997
I can't find a quote where Christ says "throw away everything I have given you" there is wealth of the world in excess and there I world wealth based off of circumstance from the Father

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>>1517024

Matthew 19:21

>Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Wasn't that hard to find.

>>1517024
I never said he said throw away everything, I said he said give away everything you don't need. Because he said that. Feed my people, clothe my people, teach my people Peter. I don't remember him saying anything about two bed two bath 50 acre houses or plasma screen tv's.
Think of how many people you could have fed if you'd gotten a 1 bed 1 bath, how many poor kids you could clothe if you didn't spend 2000 dollars on television and 60 a month for 30 years. How many you could spread the Gospel to if you just got that 12,000 dollar used Toyota instead of that 32,000 dollar SUV.

>>1517037
Christ says, give everything you have, not "give away what I have given you"

Again, it is circumstantial for someone in the present day to be wealthy, have it be a blessing, so it can be put to good use.

God ultimately is above the wealth, and He is also above the denial of wealth, because it is obvious wealth is there for a reason, not for greed, but for another purpose that will later make sense.

To give up everything and follow the Guru, that is one thing, but to be rich like a homeowner, you must give your graces to the less fortunate, rather than abandon the grace that is given to you through your efforts.

Everyone has a different situation and view of wealth. It has a proper use in its time and place

>>1517017
>ancient historical and cosmological evidence
What evidence are you suggesting?
What was all that talk about faith and trust and belief supposed to be about then, if this evidence was at hand all along?

>You illustrated a hypothetical scenario on the internet which has no value
It served it's purpose perfectly, which was to catch an obvious flaw in your belief.

>>1517044
That is also what I am saying here ->>1517055
but ultimately it isn't about my opinion at all

>>1517058
I though God already owned all the wealth.
But really, how can you justify owning luxuries when you know people who need help? Know of people who need help.
Jesus outright said you should give your cloak if your brother is naked. Ancient Christians were all extremely poor, the bible talks of raising funds because nobody had any significant lumps of money because they gave it all.
Jesus was distinctly anti wealth, any Christian who receives wealth and doesn't use it specifically to help the poor or the faithless is going directly against God's word.
Spending money on personal luxuries is simply not supported in any New Testament writing. All of it speaks on how any excess wealth should be used to help others.

>>1517056
>What evidence are you suggesting?
All the historical, ancient doctrines where not separating their religion from science, and their calculations of astronomy all were very similar, and the associations throughout all the lands were generally the same.

>What was all that talk about faith and trust and belief supposed to be about then, if this evidence was at hand all along?
You have to have faith and trust that _work, otherwise, you denying all of it, _ does not work. The evidence is not tangible, meaning, the evidence is for the nature of force, rather than physical finding, though there are plenty of physical writings which lead

>It served it's purpose perfectly, which was to catch an obvious flaw in your belief.
Actually, it didn't do anything. Hypotheticals are without base. That is like a girl saying "would you love me if I was skinny", if you say yes, she is going to tell you "no", if you say "no" she is going to cry, meanwhile, she is only a little chunky, however, her hypothetical question is detrimental either way, and without a base because she is a lil chunky and not fat.

>>1517068
God does own all the wealth. Christ is not against wealth because God the Father owns all the wealth and gives what each person considers their "lot".

How do you give your wealth, and who do you give it too? Do you give to a charity that takes out x%, or do you give it to a homeless dude so he can grab some beer? There is not yes/no right/wrong, so it is a hard thing to exactly decipher.

>>1517055

Of for fucks sake... It says "sell your possession and give to the poor". How clear is that?

And its protestant thinking that says "muh wealth was given to be by God!"

If you were really pious you'd sell all your things and take a one way trip to Saudi Arabia to preach the good news.

But no. You feel like you rather sit at home and debate how pious you are on the internet and claim your comfortable lifestyle was given to you by god for being so pious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Elisabeth_of_Hesse_and_by_Rhine_(1864%E2%80%931918)#Religious_life

This is how a true religious person lives.

>>1517069
>ancient doctrines
>astronomy
This sounds pretty vague, link me some kind of source for this evidence about the Force, supersoul, Father, etc when you get a chance.

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>>1517078

I'm not a practicing Christian so I don't spend my money on the poor.

But it bothers me to see people who claim to be pious Christians horde wealth of any sort and not put it to religious use.

Also usury...

If you as a Christian own a 401K, retirement plan, or an interest bearing bank account you are totally violating the teachings of the Bible.

>>1517078
Form a charity, open a homeless shelter, personally oversee it so you know it goes where it should. Give to existing homeless shelters.
We could feed everyone in America with a healthy diet if all the rich people made up their minds to do that.
>but that's hard!
And one of the pillars of Christianity is overcoming adversity. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
They could. But they don't. They won't. Even if Middle America's Christians set out to actually help the poor they could alleviate a massive problem poor America faces with malnutrition. But they don't. They won't. Because the fact of the matter is most Christians are fair weather believers. And the ones that aren't have too much pride and greed to only live essentially and give themselves to God like Jesus says they should.

If the prophets rose from their graves and walked into a random congregations, the vast majority, I would say 99%, would be lambasted, decried, called heretics and false believers for their unwillingness to help the poor and the disabled, and surely for their unwillingness to spread the Gospel even if it might mean their deaths.
Peter willingly Walked to his death according to Scripture because he hoped some would hear the Word before the Magistrate crucified him. How many Christians are actually willing to die for their faith? Are you?

>>1517082
I think a "true religious person" is not concerned with being wealthy, and is not concerned with being poor.

I am not saying I am pious, I am not saying I am not pious. Being pious is not selling my stuff because someone online says to, but because Christ says to, but the extension of this applies in the present, due to circumstance and situation.

Even Buddha was a wealthy person, and then gave up his possessions for enlightenment, however, if he was not at one point rich, the value of his merits for enlightenment would not be as strong, because he experienced the riches and then denied them, rather than deny the riches without at one point experiencing them

>>1512914
>priests who are just failed monks
You do realize priests have an entirely different purpose to monks. Priests are those who preform a holy ritual or rite, monk are those who devote their lives to a secluded life of meditation, study and devotion in a monastary.

>>1517091
It doesn't take much to do that on your own.

Socrates says "I can't teach anyone to do anything, but I can only make them think", likewise, I can only give you some ideas where to look, but if I go "teaching" you everything with all the source information, you are likely to discredit it at first glance making me look like a fool

>>1517095
Where do you see people online hoarding wealth?

How do you know someone is rich or poor? Sure, I have enough money to make a living because I work, but that is not a sin, I don't work for money but because work should be a prescribed duty for each person until God puts them somewhere else.

God will have you throw away your riches, you don't will to throw away them on your own. When the time and place comes, then it will make sense.

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>>1516060

>>1517129
Wow too bad your philosophy isn't supported by any scripture. If you have excess wealth and time, why aren't you using it to help the poor like Jesus said?

>>1515465
In humans, the Soul granted humanity immortality and a glorious role as God's magnum opus, Physical and Spiritual Matter United, the Best of Heaven and Earth.

Then Adam and Eve ate the apple and corrupted that unity, lowering our nature to be more animalistic, more swayed by the flesh than the spirit, while able to judge for ourselves what was good and evil. This dooms us to further sin because we now saw good and evil in physical terms of pain and pleasure, what made us feel good was good. Thus you get things like Gluttony, food is good and fun to eat so it is truly very good to eat as much as possible, or Sloth, activity can hurt us and exhaust us so if we don't do anything we can feel comfier.

>>1517105
When God directs me to give charity, then I do. Personally, being with the person who needs help in person is meaningful, giving to a charity organization that profits from the money, to me, is not.

Why would I be willing to die for my faith when I should rather defend my faith by fighting back

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>>1515489
>however is one part of God. The Trinity is but one aspect of the Complete Whole of God
>THIS MUCH HERESY

>>1517141
If you believe the Bible is the only piece of living scripture, but God is everywhere, so when God prescribes us duties before we move into the next plane of life, we better do them. Work for duty, not for money.

If you have excess wealth, it will go where it needs to. I am not blindly giving my money to anyone, yet I am not going to hoard it all to myself. When it is time, it will make sense. If it is not time, then I am giving charity in vain, and that is also considered a sin.

>>1517143
because the bible tells you to be ready to die spreading the word of God.

>>1517147
There is no heresy, only the perception of heresy.

No church organization owns God, so who are they to condemn people as heretics?

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>>1517143

So 2000 years of Jesus willingly dying for us and all those Christian martyrs who died for their religion mean nothing to you?

I really bet you have a interest bearing bank account too.

>>1517160
An practical analysis tells you to be ready to stay alive when fighting. But why should anyone die for their faith? Why should anyone kill in the name of faith? Both of these are extreme and ridiculous.

Christ died for Faith, God, and us. That should have been it. Martyrs did not deserve to die, nor did anyone have authority to kill them.

>>1517159
You could also just, y'know be proactive and find who needs the most help, who wants to go possibly die in the ME to spread the word, which charities actually get food to starving people. Sitting and waiting is anti Scripture. It tells you to be proactive and seek out those lost and afraid.

>>1517171
What I believe about money has nothing to do with Christ on the Cross or the Martyrs.

There is nothing wrong with having money practically, and giving it when the time is ripe.

Fun fact, I don't have a bank account.

>>1517175
So all the Disciples of Jesus were stupid for preaching the word knowing they would be killed, and they shouldn't have been martyrs for Christ?

>>1517175

Do you even read your own Bible?

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

>>1517176
Why don't you go do that? It sure is easy to point out the short comings of others.

It is not about giving charity in vain.

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>>1517170
>relativist bullshit
>lol my truth and your truth are different but that's okay because it makes me feel happy to not try and offend you!

No dipshit, there is only one truth. You can't have multiple truths because that defeats the purpose.
9 blind men can get ideas of what an elephant looks like, but their ideas are but straw the man who can actually see the thing.

Buddhism is cancer, Wuzong had the right idea of supressimg this shit.

>>1517180
No. Those people who died for Christ should never have been killed at all because killing people is wrong.

"It is better to suffer and injustice than commit an injustice" says Socrates, so the Martyrs suffered the injustice, but it is the people who commit the injustice who are at fault.

>>1517181
How does that quote relate? I get it, don't fear death of the body, but I don't understand where this "we need to die for our faith comes from", where is our foundation?

>>1517175
>But why should anyone die for their faith?
I think the problem here is that people are imagining someone going "alllah ackbar" into death, when in reality they were being hunted down and murdered. They weren't going around killing people, they were the ones being killed. The martydom of it was remembering them and not forgetting them, and because they died solely because of what they believed in.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

>>1517185
Because I'm not a Christian and I frankly don't care about starving Africans. Your book commands you to do something yet you do not do it, and still claim to be a follower of said book?
I find this to be extremely hypocritical.

I am not a Christian for many reasons, including but not limited to living on bread water and apples like Jesus said so I could give money to probably alcoholic homeless people. Which by the way was an incredibly unChristian thing to say. Jesus said giving is about the intent of the giver, not about the result. A willful giver who gives in vain hope is better than a giver who only gives when he knows what the outcome will be.

>>1517186
If there is one truth, what makes you think your relative opinion is that supreme truth? What makes you have authority to condemn others? Buddhism has truths. Christ says love your neighbor, but if you suspect your neighbor of being a "heretic" and you persecute them, you have violated "Love your neighbor"

The church has caused Inquisition, that violates "Thou shall not kill" and yet they say "you have to join us or you burn in hell as a heretic", when what they are doing is using God to make people fear their establishment so people will listen to them without a mind of their own HOWEVER only to some degree is this true

>>1517202

By extension... If you see someone poor in need at any given time and do nothing to help, you are going to hell.

Which means if you have one penny to your name and you do not give it to a poor person that you see in need. You are going to hell.

>>1517192
>where is our foundation?
The Cross.

We don't need to die physically (the only death required 100% is Death to Self), but if it comes down to death at the hands of those who hate the Faith, forgive them and praise the Lord.

>>1517193
Don't get me wring I am not saying martyrdom is pointless, I am saying killing people for their faith is pointless and shows your establishment has no God of love, but rather the love to imperialize your country or religion and it is very sad and hypocritical that organizations do this.

>>1517204
The bible isn't the only book in the world. I don't follow a book I follow God. When the time is right to give, then I will, but I do not give charity because someone online says to, and I do not give charity in vain efforts to be a "good Samaritan"

If the person needs my charity, God organized it to happen. If not, then I give in vain.

>>1517204
I speak for myself, not that anon, why would you vehemently try to corner people on the internet you do not even know over things you don't know? You don't know what this person has done or not done. Why is it so acceptable for you to think you can judge?
>I find this to be extremely hypocritical. Jesus said giving is about the intent of the giver
And Jesus also said not to tell others of the deeds you do, but to let God judge you alone. Anyone who goes around telling people what they have done to appease some random stranger, ends up getting their reward at that moment, and nothing is saved in heaven, according to Jesus.

>>1517209
Spiritual death is not physical death. It is one thing to forgive one who kills you. However, if someone is going to kill you, you need to fight back.

>>1514314
Why is it true?
>Because my magic book says so
Why is your magic book true?
>Because my magic book says so

You're retarded.

>>1517218

How fucking stupid is that. How hard is it to actually go out in the world and find people in need. No one said you had to give directly to charity, the Bible explicitly says to give to the poor.

Did you give Matthew a good hard read? Because it says you are going to hell because you ignored the poor and those in need.

It doesn't mean sending money to Africa, (it can but) it means giving all of your wealth except what is needed to survive to the poor.

To shut your eyes to the rest of world and say you can't see anyone in need then you are going to hell just as much as those who saw people in need.

Because you weren't looking or tried your best not to look for poor people.

A good Christian would take time off and go find a poor person and buy him a meal and some new clothes.

Have you ever done that?

>>1517224

Like Jesus did. He sure kicked those Romans and Jews asses.

>>1517218
Oh you're one of those people.
Should have just said so from the start.

>>1517220
I do not do this with anger in my heart but a bit of hope that maybe people will change their opinions. I am not some kind of militant atheist, believe what you want but if I you come knocking I will not shy away.

I do not understand how people can claim to be part of any creed and not follow said creed. I find the rampant hypocrisy and pride of most Christians to be abhorrent. I have no high opinions of myself, I have no delusions of importance. I'll live 40-80 more years then die. I might as well try to enjoy myself while I'm here, and debating is one thing I enjoy.

We understand so little about the world. Clinging on to superstitions and the words of dead mean is not something I find worthy of our limited time here. If you find these words to be divine inspiration then so be it. But I do not and if it meets my fancy I will opine on such a subject, as is my right and the right of any others to speak what they believe.

>>1517246
Regardless of what you do or do not believe, my point stands. Asking people to give up stories of what they have done right in their lives to you is asking them to give up their treasures in heaven. And being sarcastic, rude and cornering people for answers is militant, and you know in your heart before you type it that it will not change their mind.

Their bible says explicitly not to tell you and to keep the good that they do in secret. When they pray, they also should do it in secret rather than showing themselves off to where someone can see them. What you are doing is no different than saying that Obama isn't a Christian because you never see him pray. It has been said he is a Christian, but if that is true, let his God alone judge him for that and leave him be.

>>1517238
To give when it is time to give, to give in vain for merit, is likened like a sin.

Those things are for you to ask for yourself, and likewise

>>1517243
Christ Yeshua has a different circumstance and dies not at the hand of the Jews or the Romans, but at the hand of God.

>>1517246
We are all one of those people

>>1517265
I not asking them to tell me their life stories. I'm asking them if they follow the creed they claim to follow.

If that hurts your feelings too bad. Bragging denies someone their treasures in heaven btw, legitimizing yourself does not. You don't have to list dollar amounts to the cent to tell the truth and say you give all that you are able.

>>1517275
>I not asking them to tell me their life stories. I'm asking them if they follow the creed they claim to follow. If that hurts your feelings too bad. Bragging denies someone their treasures in heaven btw, legitimizing yourself does not. You don't have to list dollar amounts to the cent to tell the truth and say you give all that you are able.
>Bragging denies someone their treasures in heaven btw, legitimizing yourself does not.
And clearly I'll say again, you are not their judge.

"Be careful not to show your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

>>1517205
>The church has caused Inquisition
That was about rooting out non-Christians who were just aping it for benefits. Hence the term "Inquisition." The issue was less "kill all infidels" and more "find people who are preaching treason and get them to stop." The end of "kill heretics" was never the ideal and those who did kill heretics aren't looked back on fondly for it.

Besides, stake burnings were not the go-to any more than The Chair is in American Penal Law.

>that violates "Thou shall not kill"
The Inquisition's Death toll was about 1,000 over the course of 400 years. Execution also wasn't the goal. Was it right that people had to die? No, but then again, Buddhist cunts like yourself are currently calling for violence in Southeast Asia, that's a bigger problem than something that happened 500 years ago

>and yet they say "you have to join us or you burn in hell as a heretic"
Heresy is only an issue if you are currently a member. Also Hell is only fire poetically, in reality it's more generally miserable where any torture recieved is actually yourself being bitter about what caused you to be there, your spite is what hurts you.

>when what they are doing is using God to make people fear their establishment so people will listen to them without a mind of their own
Spoken like a true anarchist tipper who believes shit like the Black Legend and left the Church because Fr. Donahue told him "Masturbation is bad."

Also, we actually WELCOME questioning of the faith and discourage blind fanaticism because that often leads to scruples and Fundies. We ALWAYS welcomed questioning of the faith, the only problem was when you took "questioning" to "Imma preach my own ideas that I think are dogmatically sound and potentially lead people into spiritual danger by preaching falsehood!"

>HOWEVER only to some degree is this true
Yes, it is true that you huff paint. Glad we agree.

>>1517275
What makes you think all Christians follow the exact same creed? What makes you think all Christians even have a creed?

You are asking questions you need to ask for yourself. You cant categorize all Christians as hypocrites because they are not all in Africa feeding the hungry, or because they are not in the Middle East preaching the word of God. That makes no sense, whether you are a Christian or not, those expectations are your own expectations.

God has a plan for everyone, that is the one we follow, not someone on the internet telling us to give everything away now. I am not here to satisfy you telling me to give everything away, I am here to satisfy God, when He tells me to give everything away

>>1512839
Surely God must know what it takes for a certain person to believe in him, so I find it very strange that he would choose a proper manner to reveal himself to so many people, and yet when it comes to atheists or believers of some other religion he does a poor job.
Even if we consider the whole "it's because of free will, guise" stuff it still sounds kinda strange: so God chose a couple of methods to reveal himself, and if any of them are good enough to survive through your skepticism then you're lucky, but if not, then you're just fucked and will burn eternally in hell? Why did he choose those particular methods?

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>>1517298
>>1517298
>What makes you think all Christians follow the exact same creed? What makes you think all Christians even have a creed?
>Christians don't have a Creed

Bitch do you even Council of Nicea?

>>1517298

Actually. Sit down and think about it. The only important thing is that you live a vitreous life because your immortal soul depends on it.

If you are a Christian and you are half assing it, you are doing it wrong. Your immortal soul is on the line. You can't part time this shit.

Because 9 out of 10 you aren't following the Bible.

Question, do you own a retirement plan or a bank account? Yes or no?

>>1517297
They still killed many people and forfeited their virtue in order to imperialize through their religion, which is not Christian.

Appreciating Buddhism does not make one Buddhist. Everyone is a Buddhist, even if they do not identify as one, and no one is a Buddhist because it is only a word. To make it an identity is counter productive.

I prefer being a Christian outside the Church and inside of Christ. It does not matter if you think someone is a heretic or not, it is not as important as you make it out to be.

What the churches do is hide God, when the true Church Christ taught is here now, within us and outside of us, in all the people we meet, for they all are made in the image of their Creator, even if they worship Satan, they deserve love from the Christians, and not hate.

>>1517129
>Where do you see people online hoarding wealth?
>How do you know someone is rich or poor

I think I know enough to google the CEO of Chase, find he's an orthodox chrisitian and then imagine him pouring a considerable amount of his worldy riches into camel ductility research hoping one day it might actually cross through the eye of a needle.

>>1517307
That is not in the New Testament.

The only true Creed is:

>"Pray then like this: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.'"

Every church after this made their own thing out of the Original Christ, and caused all kinds of problems

>>1517296
Again, I ask these questions to hopefully change opinions. If you believe something believe it.
I take a literal approach to everything. If you want to follow the Bible great but actually do what it says. I am no judge, no juror, but I am entitled to my opinions and I will voice them. I will not silence myself because you misinterpret my intentions as judging.

The most important questions to answer are the ones you answer to yourself. Don't answer to me. Answer to yourself. Do you do what the Bible tells you to do or not?
I am not a believer, it is not important to me. But you sound like a believer, so it should be quite important to you. Do you believe in your own book? If you do, why do you tarry here on earth? Why do you not do as you're commanded?

Go forth and spread your good words and deeds, and surely if what you believe in is correct you will be greatly rewarded. Part of me hopes God is real, I do not believe he is, but I hope that heaven is real so that those who deserve it will reach it.

If you died today would you reach it?
Ask this of yourself, do not answer to me.

>>1517308
>If you are a Christian and you are half assing it

Your perspective on my belief is not important to me, because:
>Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Not that I am being persecuted, but someone saying "you aren't a Christian according to my ideas and standards of Christianity" are not me, nor do they originate from me, nor are they in line with my relationship with the Father.

If I had a bank account, no.

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>>1517323
>the Lord's Prayer is a Creed

Do you even know what a Creed is?

Jesus hated rich people, thread over. You have to be poor and if someone wrongs you, show them the other cheek not kill them in cold blood.
If there's a hell, you hypocrites will be the first to burn, because Jesus hated those too with a dreadful passion.

>>1517333
The way you see Christians being hypocritical because they don't give everything away is how people see you being hypocritical " I don't believe in God but here is how I believe my literal interpretation of the Bible without being a Christian"

Half of the scriptures purpose is literal, and the other half is reasonable allegories.

What makes you think Heaven is not right here right now?

>>1517298
>God has a plan for everyone, that is the one we follow
What about atheists? Are they following God's plan too? If not, that is, if someone not following God's plan is something that can happen, how do you know for sure that you're following it? You may be fooling yourself into believing that you are, or maybe you're just confused? Who knows? (besides God, obviously).

>>1517345
A set of beliefs.

Our Father is in Heaven, I believe in.

Holy is His name? Of course

His Kingdom come and is will done, on Earth and in Heaven.... You see where this is going.

That is the true teachings, the Creed of Nicea is debatable, one holy "catholic" church, not every Christian is a Catholic.

Even Mormons, they got some good stuff and everyone calls them heretical even though they got some passages in their external books that are beautiful and very inspiring.

>>1517346
Christ loves all people, God is love, not hate.

>>1517298
>What makes you think all Christians follow the exact same creed?
You'd think an all powerful god would at least go through the hassle of actually having their believers be fucking consistent because fuck.
You see nike lawyers moving around like crazy when someone fucking slaps a sticker of a tick on a sandwich for fear of getting their brand tarnished but anyone can go around spouting shitty non-canonical spiels about god and he won't do shit! What a lousy god!

>>1517316
>They still killed many people and forfeited their virtue in order to imperialize through their religion, which is not Christian
And if you knew anything about Christianity, you'd realize that the only unforgivable sin is refusing to be forgiven. You can deeply fuck up, even on a grand institutional level and still reset and regain that lost virtue.

>Appreciating Buddhism does not make one Buddhist.
True
>Everyone is a Buddhist, even if they do not identify as one, and no one is a Buddhist because it is only a word.
Nice Ice Cream Koan.

To make it an identity is counter productive.
It makes itself an identity.

I prefer being a Christian outside the Church and inside of Christ.
Then you're doing it wrong.
>...and upon this Rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH

>It does not matter if you think someone is a heretic or not
Yes it does because Heresy leads souls astray.

>it is not as important as you make it out to be
It actually is.

>What the churches do is hide God
Divine Adoration.

>when the true Church Christ taught is here now, within us and outside of us, in all the people we meet, for they all are made in the image of their Creator, even if they worship Satan
OOOOOOH, you're one of those retarded "lol Christianity doesn't need ritual if you have a personal relationship with Jesus!" Types who says "personal relationship with Jesus" the same way they say "personal computer specifications."

>they deserve love from the Christians, and not hate
Admonishing sinners and instructing the ignorant are not hate.

>>1517366
>Christ loves all people
Except that time when he whipped the fuck out of everyone for making a buck out of Jehova devotees, Jesus was whack that day, sheeeit.

>>1517352
The idea the Bible is not literal is as infuriating an idea to me as the idea Christians should be pacifists. The very idea that a great many Christians, were they to watch Jesus whip and beat the merchants in the Temple, would scold him and tell Jesus that's not what Jesus would have done. The same Christiams who claim that baptism, from the Greek word baptismo, to be submerged, only means a light sprinkling, is absolutely infuriating. I have read the Bible more times than I can count.
The literal pieces, such as Jesus commanding his followers to give all they could spare to help those lost, are wholly distinct from blatant allegories and parables such as the story of the Virgins and the Lamp Oil.

Either the Bible is literal in interpretation or Jesus didn't actually mean what he said. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have female Bishops when God explicitly forbade it because it wasn't literal but then say you do have to pray because that was literal.

>>1517358
It gets pretty obvious after some time and practice.

As for atheist, I used identify as atheist, and perhaps part of the plan is to deny religion so to appreciate it later on, but this is a bad view because I could have died before I believed in God, not that that would bring you to hell, but would be a likely cause for rebirth to try again.

I mean, atheists have the necessary faculties to examine God and try to seek Him, so, it isn't "God did not reveal Himself to us" because He does, you just don't see it as an atheist because your perception and focus is directed towards other things

>>1517385
Jesus isn't very consistent, one day he's talking to the devil about how he shouldn't ask god for material gain, the other he's cursing trees eternally for not giving him fruit.

>>1517399
Well that last one is a parable as well while the first one is literal, but I find the story of the Fig Tree a bit stupid when I really thought about it. He's saying those who do not bear works are lost and that they are damned, but that's a bit in opposition to the idea anyone can be saved. Like he doesn't give the fig tree any time to actually bear fruits.

>>1517378
People make creeds, not God. Then God would be like "hmm what language should I put this in" and then there are all kinds of problems with "You think God should___" No, WE should.

>>1517382
Of course they can be forgiven, but it is reasonable not to be a part of a denomination of church for that reason.

Peter is not the Rock, Christ is the Rock. Christ says upon this Rock, not Peter, you are the Rock. Christ is the Rock. The True Church is not the denominations of church (unless that is what you believe, you are entitled to).

I think calling someone a heretic is worse than being a heretic, it is all unnecessary persecution of your neighbor.

A personal relationship to God is more important than going to church. You can go to church, but do you have a relationship with God?

"Admonishing sinners" does not mean "go to hell sinner"... Love your neighbor, even if they are a "heretic"

>>1517384
Nothing in that passage says He hurt anyone or caused them physical harm. EVEN IF HE DID, the DUDE was NAILED TO A CROSS, pretty sure Him "hurting" anyone wasn't that bad.

>>1517413
>Then God would be like "hmm what language should I put this in"
Well, guess whose idea was it to have different languages in the first place according to catholic canon!

>>1517417
He pretty much says rich people aren't getting into heaven tho.
He very specifically and repeatedly asks his followers to be fucking poor.

>>1517385
I think you need to stop being "infuriated" at what you believe all Christians believe. No one person is the same.

The Bible is both literal and allegorical, and using those lenses together to read the Bible is very important, otherwise, you are only reading it with one of your two eyes.

>>1517366
The Lord's Prayer is not a Creed. It is not meant to BE a Creed. It's meant to be a prayer requesting guidance and aid from God the Father.

A creed is up front in asserting the beliefs of a group.

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, I believe in Jesus Christ, the Only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered death and was buried, descended to the dead, on the 3rd day he Rose again, he ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father, he will come again to judge the living and the dead, I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting.

That is a creed. That is a summation of Christian belief.

Give us this day our daily bread is not a Creed. It's a petition. The closest to creed was the parts you said, otherwise it's just a petition for guidance, mercy and aid.

>>1517384
He was pissed at the temple getting desecrated. If I was in Mass and Femen members popped up and started rioting, I'd drive them out.

If the concept of god can be repurposed and re-intepreted into whatever it's convenient, then there's really not a single point to religion whatsoever except satisfying your shitty superstition.
It's like it never even mattered.

>>1517420
According to the Catholic Canon, there are many denominations of Christianity, you cant blame God for the majesty of different languages. You have to learn the languages through work and effort, just like everything else.

Also, God is plenty outside of Christianity, and plenty outside of every Religion we know. God is more than transcendent.

>>1517423
You add a connotation that is not worthy of what He actually said. People give up everything to follow spiritual masters, it is not uncommon. What makes Christ special is that He is expected by so many people prior to His arrival

>>1517429
I don't think the Catholic Church is holy, but everything else is solid. However, it doesn't originate from the New Testament, so HERESY lol just kidding

>>1517439
>you cant blame God for the majesty of different languages
Except I totally can since it's in the fucking Bible.

>>1517446
>I don't think the Catholic Church is holy
Then you're not a tru catholic I'm afraid, since the catholic church being a single, holy, catholic and apostolic is part of the catholic creed.
By Zeus, why do you even defend a religion you barely even practice?!!

>>1517428
Like I said, I acknowledge that the Bible is part literal and part allegorical, but which is which is so clear a 3rd grader can make the distinction.
I dislike people who half ass anything. Half assing something is a sign of a weak willed person. Someone who only wants the benefits but doesn't want to put in the effort expected to receive them.

>>1517366
>Even Mormons, they got some good stuff and everyone calls them heretical even though they got some passages in their external books that are beautiful and very inspiring.
Because
>their signature texts are in direct conflict with the accepted Scripture
>their cosmology is in direct conlfict with canon Christian cosmology (they believe God is created, they believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, they believe everyone just becomes a God of their own Universe upon death etc, it's why their baptisms aren't considered valid despite using the same words, what they mean by them are not canon with the rest of Christianity

Any truth or beauty gleaned from their apocrypha does not validate it as a whole.

>>1517446
Note how I didn't capitalize "catholic church."

That denotes the Christian Church as a whole, not just the Roman Catholic Church. I went to a Presbyterian wedding recently and their missals had " holy catholic church" in their Creed.

>>1517420
Isn't the Tower of Babel part of all Abrahamic faiths?

>>1517439
The existance of Protestant Churches is on Man's Resume, not God's. God scattered language because of hubris and refusal to "go forth and multiply."

>>1517446
>However, it doesn't originate from the New Testament

Literally everything is biblical in origin. Even the Sola Scriptura nuts profess the Apostles/Nicene Creed.

>>1517449
I appreciate the language barrier. You can overcome it by learning all of the languages.

>>1517456
I am a Christian, not a Catholic. I follow Christ and not the church.

>>1517457
Technically, using the word "half-ass" is kind of a half-ass statement word to describe something.

>>1517462

Who is to say their Baptism is wrong? Nobody, they are heretical only to a handful of people who haven't learned how to love their neighbor, therefore are also heretical.

>>1517475
Well the Catholic Church is Holy, because Catholic is supposed to mean
> (katholikos), meaning "universal") comes from the Greek phrase kαθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general",

But then instead of being universal, people made it exclusive, salvation only to members.

>>1517509
Half assed is a very accurate way of describing how a lot of people live their lives as although the term itself means something vague, it is clearly defined as that area in between giving 100% and not giving any effort at all.

>>1517514
Then we are all half-assed doing things halfway, and recognizing it is more important

Which is pretty cool,=D

>>1517524
Half assing something like eating a meal is no big deal.
Half assing your job, your relationships, your faith. That's pretty severe.

>>1517509
>I follow Christ and not the church.
Jesus established a Church.

>Who is to say their Baptism is wrong?
The don't baptize with the same understanding all other Christians do because what they mean by Father, Son and Spirit is VASTLY different to what the rest of Christianty means when they invoke the Trinity.

>Nobody, they are heretical only to a handful of people who haven't learned how to love their neighbor, therefore are also heretical.
No, they are called heretical because their theology is so alien it's about as Christian as Judaism or Islam. Heck, because it's so alien it can barely even be considered heresy. It's not even really monotheistic!

>But then instead of being universal, people made it exclusive, salvation only to members.
Like Christianty is supposed to be. 教会の外にはいかなる救いはありません was always a belief, it was only invoked at Trent because the division was scene as creating other churches and subsequently other religions.