Chinese History

>>1469561
When did the Chinese actually consider Tibet a part of China?

>>1469566
The Tibet-China debate became most significant 1912 onwards. Before that, Tibet was seen as an independent nation whose relationship with China was described by the Dalai Lama as being that of a “patron and priest”, the Tibetan Lamas serving religious duties to Chinese emperors. The PRC claims Tibet was a part of China even since the Yuan dynasty militarily took over Tibet in the 13th century. Now this is me just speculating on what I know on this topic, which isn’t a lot, but I think a major reason why many outsiders refuse to accept post-Yuan rule over Tibet is because the Yuan dynasty was established by Kublai Khan, grandson of Genghis Khan. Apparently, Genghis Khan is seen as a hero in some places in Asia, particularly Mongolia, but I’m not entirely sure about China. To the west, Genghis Khan is definitely a villain and I would assume many would agree that any political activity he did during his and his family reign should be disregarded after his dynasty falls.

>>1469561
Would China have industrialized first had it not been wrecked by steppeniggers?

What did KMT do to fuck up so badly they lost to PRC?

>>1469561
Why Mao is so demonized when he basically developped China, always thought about the people ? Is it because those who took the power after him found it easier to blame him for everything wrong in this country ?

>>1469679
>he basically developped China
developed China, with famines and ~80 million people dying in the process.. kek

What do you think of the Xia dynasty, do you think that it's a myth or did it actually exist like that chinese paper published in 1995 says.

>>1469679

Not OP, but demonized by who? I have some Chinese friends and they have a love-hate relationship with Mao.

>>1469679
>always thought about the people ?
Yeah I'm sure he was thinking about the people and not his own political ambitions when he created the cultural revolution.. Riiight...

>>1469679
>Why Mao is so demonized when he basically developped China,
that's not Deng Xiaoping

>>1469645
>but I think a major reason why many outsiders refuse to accept post-Yuan rule over Tibet is because
Most of the "west" has no clue about the history of Tibet-China relations. They're pro Tibetan independence because of the diaspora and resulting vocal immigrants, primarily in the US where most of them went. Also if they did know it wouldn't be because it was Genghis or his descendants, but simply because it was a foreign power that forcefully unified them.

>>1469645

It gets a bit more complicated then that. Tibetans are considered one of the Five Races of China, a concept that was formulated during the beginnings of the Republican era, so regardless of who won supremacy in the mainland Tibet would have been absorbed into China.

>>1469651
KMT was too busy trying to defend China from Imperial Japan.

>>1469561
Did china discover america before spaniards?

>>1469561
why is cao cao so fucking based

>>1469566
>Tibet was seen as an independent nation
Nope it wasnt. Hell it wasn't even a "nation:" it was a fractured collection of Monastic theocracies that frequently fought each other.

Anyway, Tibet's (non-Yuan) inclusion to China was in the 1700s. Simply read the following
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_expedition_to_Tibet_(1720)
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Nepalese_War

tl;dr: Tibet was a mess thanks to religious shitfighting. Invited the Qingz n shiet over to help them get the fucking Dzungars out of Tibet. China says they will in exchange of administering Tibet as a Protectorate, Tibbs agree because they're a mess. Gurkhas invade Tibet in a bid for empire. Chinks bail Tibetans again and finally placed the whole thing under their rule.

>>1469699
Xia was real in the sense it was based on something actually there (probably Erlitou).

>>1469665
Corruption, which led to class struggle. Also the KMT really sucked at fighting the Japanese despite having superior American weapons. Meanwhile the PRC focused on peasants and could hold up a substantial resistance against the Japanese using guerilla warfare.

>>1469698
>Muh 80 billion
World leaders can't control weather dumbass.

>>1469700
He is demonized in the west because he was a Communist leader.

Not saying he was some sort of perfect leader - but literally the only thing you hear is how he was an evil genocidal monster, same with Stalin.

>>1469719
The cultural revolution was a purge of the upper classes, and as such entirely justified, and one of the most progressive movements ever enacted by a major world leader.

>>1469561
Imma try my best to come up with questions.


Zhou has always seen as the genesis of chinese-ness. Do you have any insight on chinese elements developed before Zhou?

How do I make sense of the 三皇五帝 and the tribal warfare of 蚩尤軒轅 and 炎帝(who is him anyway?) ? Although the chronology is sketchy as fuck, there must have been some chink historian's version of happenings in that era.

There were indication of cultural/language/economic disparity between states of the Warring states.
How do we trace the distinct cultures of the states? "Qi's true culture" or "Jing's legacy" or "Chu's poetry"?


There are actually alot question to be asked, since there are many skip thru periods in curriculum.
I've always waiting for Chinese History AMA.

>>1472035
>Zhou has always seen as the genesis of chinese-ness. Do you have any insight on chinese elements developed before Zhou?
Zhou feudal order established a elite culture/identity(Zhuxia,Hua) though pre dynastic Zhou included non Sinitic elements.(The royal Ji/Jiang surname is shared with Rong tribes,Heaven worship,wolf motif)

Shang was the earliest known Sinitic polity,pre dynastic Zhou and Fen river polities represent other local confederations.

>How do I make sense of the 三皇五帝 and the tribal warfare of 蚩尤軒轅 and 炎帝(who is him anyway?)
Mythology,some of which dates to the late Warring States.

>There were indication of cultural/language/economic disparity between states of the Warring states.
Archaeology.

Given the lack of textual sources no one knows the distribution or what pre Sinitic was spoken. At best you have glosses from historical texts or personal names.

>>1472080
Given how Sinicization sweep over the land
How can 苗 keep it self as a relic from the time before 夏?

How do Wang Mang get soo high up? What is he trying to achieve anyway?

How did Guang Wu managed to reconsolidate Han's empire? Is the dynasty from now on effectively distinct from the previous Han?

Decadence is always main attack point of the era, 晉(司馬). Any example, or how decadent are they? Given that they held on for 1.5 century, what are their visible legacy and characteristic? Why the Jin get ignored all the time while the Yuan (a blink) get magnified?

The downfall of Jin triggered mass southward migration, how does this impact the "racial(different kind of Han)" demographic of the south?

Why the South is still divided along linguistic/cultural crevice until pretty recently, while the North get uniformed? (Please no plain vs hilly forest stuff, elaborate more on inter Han races interactions i.e. Yue, Wu, Hakka, Min etc)

>>1472137
Scholarship on the whole Six Dynasties era is still in its infancy. Volume 2 of the Cambridge Series for example is reportedly no where near ready for publication despite the series having started way back in the 50s.

>>1470603
>cultural revolution
>entirely justified

>>1470544
they sure as hell can mitigate its effects though

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>>1472137
>How can 苗 keep it self as a relic from the time before 夏?
btw not the OP

I seriously hope you're not conflating modern Miao with ancient/mythological San Miao. Ancient Chinese reused ethnonyms for peripheral polities.

Erlitou is clearly ancestral to what would be known as "Chinese" civilization but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a dynasty.

>The downfall of Jin triggered mass southward migration, how does this impact the "racial(different kind of Han)" demographic of the south?
First off there's a lack of ancient autosomal dna so my knowledge is mainly based on uniparental markers and physical anthropology.

Going by mtdna Erlitou,Early Shang(Yanshi) and Late Shang(Yinxu) are ancestral to northern Han.

Historical Han Chinese assimilated two other "northern" populations the ancient northwestern Chinese (Shaanxi/Gansu) and ancient northern Chinese(Hebei/Inner Mongolia/Liaoxi)

Most of the Jin elite fled to the lower/middle Yangtze(think Jiangnan/Jianghan region) their descendants are autosomally northern Chinese with a slight southern shift.

Southern Chinese south of that region are descended from secondary or tertiary migrations from later dynasties(Tang,Song) with substantial native admixture(Hmong Mien/Tai Kadai)

ttyl male mediated migration and Sinicized local elites made them Han.

>Why the South is still divided along linguistic/cultural crevice until pretty recently, while the North get uniformed?
Endogamy and dearth of historical migrations is my guess.

I don't have the knowledge to answer your other questions.

>>1470599
>demonized in the west
>Just because he's Hitler, doesn't mean he's Hitler!

If you are in fact a mass murdering monster, it is appropriate you are referred to as such. Next, please get bothered that nobody ever talks about Hitler's ability to put people to work.

>>1469905
This

>>1470603
>>1470599
>>1470544
Bait

Even the CCP itself, which looks at the guy as the founder, disagrees with you.

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>>1469561
Wu, Wei, or Shu?

What the fuck happened in 1966?

>>1469899
>based

He was a dishonourable dog.

Why do chinks love dog meat so much ?

>>1469740
>muh Tibet is an indisputable territory of China

Mods should just ban all ips from China and delete Commie China propaganda threads.

>>1469561
Who was the third emperor of the Sui Dynasty?

>>1469905
Tibetan history is pretty interesting, but there's like next to nothing on the web, especially MAPS

>>1469561
Was Zhuangzi actually a butterfly?

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>>1469561
>Chinese
>History

>>1472665
>they are shitting in streets today thus must have had even worse history
>history is a linear progression

When will people who are motivated by 21th century politics leave my fucking history board?

>>1472573
Where was this stated or claimed you autist?

>>1472603
Because "Tibet" was a creation of the 18th century Qing Empire.

>>1472665
(You)

>>1472499
Maybe because Deng Xiaoping took control of China after Mao, and proceed to blame him for everything ? The CCP is also clearly not maoist anymore.

>>1472901
no, its a corrupt and authoritarian government thats fighting itself while simultaneously oppressing the people it governs. and mao gave us this communist china.

>>1472665
of all the shitty things of china, their history isn't one of them.

>>1472690
this

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Can anyone recommend a decent introduction to Chinese history? I've always been fascinated with the region but there's so much going on there I don't know where to start. I'm less interested in the last hundred years or so and more in classical/imperial China.
Preferably not too heavy, I mostly read in my lunchbreaks.

>>1472573

>Bлaдивocтoк(Vladivostok) used to belong to China
>Lake Baikal used to belong to China
>Okinawa used to belong to China
>North of Amur River used to belong to China

But you don't see CCP going on about "reclaiming" those places.

>>1472979
Okinawa never belonged to China. The Ryukyu Kingdom, and the three kingdoms before it, It was an independent state before Nips invaded the place.

Like anyone in the region, it was in a tributary relationship with the Chinks.

>>1469561

What periods would you divide Chinese history into?

>>1472993
Formal scholarship divides Chink history into Ancient (Prehistoric-Warring States), Imperial (Qin-Qing), and Modern (Republic to PRC/ROC)

>>1472908
The only thing i like about chinks is their food. Minus that, they are just human roachs to me.

>>1472137
>Why the South is still divided along linguistic/cultural crevice until pretty recently, while the North get uniformed? (Please no plain vs hilly forest stuff, elaborate more on inter Han races interactions i.e. Yue, Wu, Hakka, Min etc)

I think I can partially answer this, although I'm no expert.

From what I understand, the North became fairly uniform due to the unifying efforts of the Han dynasty. The Qin dynasty attempted it but was still marked by Warring states regionalism, which was reflected in the way in which Xianyang was laid out in terms of ancestor worship and the Qin's policy of inducing captured families of former enemies to reside in the capital.

Basically, Qin's endeavor was a truncated one, and wasn't able to successfully manufacture an imperial identity within its short reign. The early Han dynasty was also marked by the regionalism of its subordinate kings, and they continued to prove a thorn in the imperial side for some two centuries until which the imperial court successfully created a marked imperial culture and center distinct from regional identifiers. The potency of the imperial court was often judged by its magnetism in attracting outlying states to render it tribute, and that's directly correlated with the unifying efforts of the early dynasties.

As the North is the cradle of imperial civilization, the variegate identities which naturally would have emerged have been eroded by centuries of imperial consolidation.

>>1469561

Did Chairman Mao ever ROFLMAO