How old where you when you realized the Wehrmacht was clean?

24

Clean of what? I sure hope you don't mean war crimes.

>>1434456
Certainly cleaner than the RAF or the Red Army.

>>1436870
They were in no way cleaner than the RAF.

You had about half a million civilian casualties from strategic bombing against Germany, and roughly half of that was American.

Meanwhile, you have what? 10 million dead civilians in the USSR alone, never mind what they did in Yugoslavia, Poland, and Italy post Mussolini's overthrow.

>>1434344
The Wehrmacht were the biggest Naziboos of all.

It would have been pretty tough to become chancellor of Germany if the officer corps wasn't behind you.

Personally I don't think killing partisans is necessary 'unclean'. But they like to pretend they didn't do that.

>>1436886
And don't forget all those orders issued by the upper-level Wehrmacht leadership calling for their men to support the genocide, doing things such as providing men for executions.

>>1436870
>Certainly cleaner than the RAF
These memes are getting ridiculous.
>B-but muh Dresden
"What was the The Blitz?"

>>1436939
>"What was the The Blitz?"
It wasn't done with strategic bombers.

>>1436947
Well that's alright then, even though it claimed more lives and more people got wounded.
It doesn't matter what they used, more people lost their lives in the Blitz then the Dresden bombing, doesn't make the Dresden bombing a good thing, but the Germans were hardly innocent victims, they had it coming.

>>1436970
And by Germans I mean the Wehrmacht, unfortunately civilians always get the blame for the wrong doings of their military

>>1434344
How those it feel being fanboy of losers?

>>1436947
>I only stabbed your cat with a penknife, see?
>you can't sue me unless I used a bowie knife

>>1436983
I always feel more for the losers. I guess I feel identified with them.

>>1436947

Do you really think that if the Luftwaffe had 4 engined strategic bombers, they wouldn't have used them on Britain out of moral principle?

The reason they didn't have them was an operational decision based on a differing calculation of how to maximize limited resources, not "lol bombing cities is bad.

>>1436970

Uh, what? That's not true, unless you're counting the comparison of the deaths of one major raid on Dresden against raids against London lasting for most of the war. Total people killed by RAF bombing far exceeds losses from the Blitz.

>>1437012
>Uh, what? That's not true, unless you're counting the comparison of the deaths of one major raid on Dresden against raids against London lasting for most of the war. Total people killed by RAF bombing far exceeds losses from the Blitz.

I must admit, in great shame, that I used Wikipedia in a hurry, the numbers might be totally wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz

So you're where American historians were in the 40s, before they realized how common civilian reprisals were on the Eastern Front, and how often Wehrmacht units helped with the Final Solution?

Makes sense, autists tend to act like people from 4 or 5 generations before them.

>>1437034
>Makes sense, autists tend to act like people from 4 or 5 generations before them.
Straight from your ass.

>>1437020

I mean sure, if you're comparing Dresden to "The Blitz" you'll get more losses in the BLitz than you have in Dresden.

But that's one night's massive raid against, (if you use the same definition that Wiki is, which I admit I was not in my previous post) 8 months of raids. Of course you're going to get a higher death toll. If you compare the Blitz to a cross section of RAF bombings against Berlin say, the 8 months before D-Day, I'd be willing to bet the Germans suffered far higher losses. (But I have not looked it up myself)

The reds you kill, they make you clean.

>>1437054
Have you seen 4chan?

Look at how many unironic tankie Marxists, Stirnerites, Nazis, Catholic/Protestant sectarians and other shit you get here.

It's like they're channeling crazy dead people.

>>1437065
That doesn't have anything to do with being an autist.

>>1437020
Not trying to defend the "clean Wehrmacht" argument, but it's not exactly fair to be comparing a single city to an entire bombing campaign.

The Allied bombing of Germany killed some half a million people over the course of the war, and tons of people were displaced. Take Hamburg, for example, which suffered the most devastating single bombing operation in Europe (Operation Gomorrah). Roughly 40,000 people were killed, and over a million fled the city in the aftermath of the operation.

Don't try to downplay the devastation of the Allied bombing campaign by equating it with the Blitz. Just because the Allies executed a heavy-handed and devastating campaign doesn't somehow make the crimes of the Germans any less terrible.

>>1437073
Not to mention the invaluable cultural heritage wantonly destroyed.

>>1437012
>Do you really think that if the Luftwaffe had 4 engined strategic bombers, they wouldn't have used them on Britain out of moral principle?
They wouldn't have designed them, because they had a higher moral standard than the eternal anglo.

>>1437101

Which is why they practiced civilian terror bombing all the way back in the Spanish Civil War, and broke it out again against the Poles and Dutch before you got similar terror bombing back at them?

Not to mention that they did design such airframes, they just couldn't get them out quickly and numerous enough to make a difference.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177

>any army being "clean"

muh good vs evil

>wehraboo lets memes get to his head: the thread

>>1436947
I guess the IJA was cleanest of all. They didn't even use guns or combustion engines.

>>1436970
>but the Germans were hardly innocent victims, they had it coming.

I don't disagree in the relative comparison between the Blitz and Dresden but don't go full retard and say the citizens of Dresden had it coming as a consequence of the actions of the Luftwaffe. You can say the bombing of Dresden was a necessary evil but come the fuck on.

>>1437101
They did design them, they just didn't produce them in large enough numbers.

> and broke it out again against the Poles and Dutch before you got similar terror bombing back at them?
And threatened it against the Czechs.

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>>1437101
post wehraboo memes

>>1434344
they look pretty dirty in that picture, all muddy & dusty

>>1434344
17. Say what you will about the ideologies of the Wehrmacht, they at least had honor and decency and didn't rape and plunder the towns they captured. Unlike the communists, who we are all aware were just paragons of human morality.

>>1436947
>It wasn't done with strategic bombers.
Only because the Luftwaffe didn't have any :^)

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gr8 b8 m8

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>>1436870

I'm pretty sure you guys take such obvious bait because you like hearing yourselves argue.

>>1437065
>Look at how many unironic tankie Marxists, Stirnerites, Nazis, Catholic/Protestant sectarians and other shit you get here.

That's pretty stupid, as all of those are ideologies that are still very much alive, and have been since their inception. If anything it's just a proof that antisocial sorts tend to be attracted to the fringes of ideology.

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>>1436939
>These memes are getting ridiculous.

I agree. The problem is people try to justify it when there is no need.

Not a single German officer was indicted at Nuremberg for bombing British cities and civilians. It was understood to be an accepted part of total war on both sides.

>>1437274
back to /tv/ fucking memer

>Wherboos
LOSING SIDE
FAILURES
GERMAN EXCELLENCE IS A MEME

>>1436886
>only half a million
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>1434344
>clean

But Anon they were drugged up to their eye balls mayne.

>>1437922
Only before Barbarossa.

>>1434344
how old were you when you realized nobody was ever clean?

>>1438130
Deep

>>1436886
Along with the civilians they demolished 70,000 villages the civilians lived in

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>>1437212

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>>1438411
>>1437212

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>>1437254
Spice

>>1436870
HALF OF ALL RUSSIAN POWS DIED AT THE HANDS OF THE WEHR.MACHT

>>1437267
Challenge for /pol/fags.
Construct post what feel bingo in way it show swastika

>>1436886
>They were in no way cleaner than the RAF.

All air forces were (and still are) far worse than armies when it comes to killing civilans

>>1436939
>"What was the The Blitz?"

Not done by the Wehrmacht

>>1436947
>joke's on you faggot, We were too incompetent to commit war crimes!
wehraboos

>>1438626
Wehrmacht != Heer.

>>1438460
HOW MANY GERMAN POWs DIED IN RUSSIAN GULAGS?

War is evil shit. Everybody grow the fuck up already.

>>1434344
All armies are either clean or dirty equally because war is murder which is a sin.

SO GROW THE FUCK UP ALREADY

THIS IS /his/

ARMIES FIGHT WARS

PEOPLE FUCKING DIE

CRIMES ARE COMMITTED

>>1438654
A far smaller percentage

ONLY THE SS KILLED CIVILLIANS!!!

HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY VICTOR!!!

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when I saw this movie and wondered why the good guys enjoyed murdering unarmed prisoners

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>>1434344
there is no way in hell that this could happen without the Wehrmacht knowing about it

>>1438659
are you trying to imply that he systematic murder on an industrial scale committed by the Nazis was just a side effect of the second world war?

>>1437922
Is this true?

>>1437254
The suffering of German civilians in the final weeks of WW2 were tragic and ought to be remembered, but the horrors wrought by Germans onto the Soviet people were so unimaginable that we modern outsiders are really in no place to judge their expression of anger.

Rape and looting are objectively wrong, but Soviet brutality was chiefly an act of defiance against not only the physical invasion, but also the intellectual campaign of anti-Bolshevism and Aryanism waged by the Nazi leadership, which desired not only the destruction of Soviet society but also the colonization, enslavement, and near-complete eradication of the Soviet citizenry.

Bringing up Soviet war crimes outside of this context is akin to calling a woman a brute for scratching the face of a man who is raping and strangling her.

>>1438931
Drugs were used to reduce the need for sleep and shit like that yeah

>>1438918
Pretty sure thats a soviet officer executing a partisan.

>>1438887
Not him, but not that much. Iirc, the percentage of pow death difference was like 5-10% a lot of Wehrmacht guys in Soviet camps died, close to 50%

>>1437254
>Say what you will about the ideologies of the Wehrmacht, they at least had honor and decency and didn't rape and plunder the towns they captured.
No, they totally raped and plundered for years. And unlike the Red Army, Rape wasn't even theoretically a crime in the Wehrmacht on the eastern front.

>>1438918
That looks like a Soviet uniform.

>>1439013
You got an independent source for that?

Unfortunate if true.

>>1439010
>>1439029
It's a famous photograph FFS

http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/last-jew-vinnitsa-1941/

>>1439050

I was working off of Niall Ferguson's "Prisoner Taking and Prisoner Killing in the Age of Total War: Towards a Political Economy of Military Defeat", War in History 11 (2), p. 186"

But I misremembered the figures giving the German PoWs held by Yugoslavs instead of the Russians.

At least according to his figures, some 57.5% of Soviets held by Germans in PoW camps died, while about 35.8% of Germans held by Soviets died. So still pretty awful, but there is a fairly large gap between the two.

>>1439081
Do you have number for American/Brit and French PoW taken by Germans and Germans taken by western allies ?

>>1439089

I have it for all the Germans being held by the Allies.

German POWs held by French 2.58%
German POWs held by Americans 0.15%
German POWs held by British 0.03%

But the only one for Western Allies held by the Germans he lists are the British, which is at 3.5%. Lemme see if I can dig something up for Americans or French held by Germans.

>>1439081
>At least according to his figures, some 57.5% of Soviets held by Germans in PoW camps died, while about 35.8% of Germans held by Soviets died
False.

No Soviet PoW died. Germans taken prisoner by soviet died in 250%. Stop posting communist propaganda, bro.

>>1439081
(((ferguson)))

>>1439007
But surely that practice was started after WW2 by degenerate Americans, right?

inb4 i get banned by a racial difference apologetist in confirmation of their fragile shittier mindbody excuses

>>1439190
>>1439192
Dumb /pol/fag.

East front/West front correlates with mortality much more highly than Slav/German

>>1436939
>"What was the The Blitz?"

ineffectual and war losing, kek at least we were good at bombing cities to the ground, luftwaffe a shit, couldn't even bomb London to the ground

why were the luftwaffe so pleb?

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>>1437264

AYOOOO

>>1437073
>the devastation of the Allied bombing campaign

to be fair though the Germans literally only have themselves to blame for that

>>1437122
>broke it out again against the Poles and Dutch

>city surrenders
>lol bomben anyway

>>1439249

Not really. Trenchard had been advocating since the end of WW1 this air based terror bombing as THE way to win wars, and he had a lot of followers in the British high command.

>>1438887

because there was so many less? OOOOOOO

>>1437264
They've actually had and they were complete shit so they used tactical bombers instead.

>>1439006

maybe in Germany they were motivated by rage, but what about in every other place they stopped? Red Army were rapist plunderers in China and European countries before they reached Germany

>>1439538

>I am literally too stupid to understand what "percentage" means.

>>1438460
As a consequence of the allies bombing german supply lines.

REALLY MAKES YOU THINK

>>1439894
You can't really blame the Allied bombing for that considering the majority of those deaths happened before the Allied bombing campaign really kicked off.

>>1438611
Yes Dresden was a travesty let's do the math.

500000 civilians killed in air raids.
20 million killed in combat with the Wehrmacht.

So oy vey each Werhmach is worth 40 subhumans then your argument makes sense.

>>1439894
Tell me about the allies bombing of the eastern front in fucking 1941

>>1436890
>It would have been pretty tough to become chancellor of Germany if the officer corps wasn't behind you.
Hitler became chancellor at a time when the army was tiny.

>>1436870
Operation Barbarossa,30 tonnes of confiscated wartime evidence and the deaths of 43 million Slavs all beg to differ.

>they at least had honor and decency and didn't rape and plunder the towns they captured
They certainly have,at least in Belarus,Poland,Ukraine and Russia.

>>1440913
And he only won because the Social Democrats and Communists underestimated the Nazi threat

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Wehrmoney dindu nuffin, he was a good boy, he went to sunday school

>>1434344
yeah, shooting highschool kids is just the usual part of the war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kragujevac_massacre

And milions of dead jews is made up, too!

better question would be at what age do you stop being edgy, you little fag

Because German lives literally don't matter. You think anyone cares how many women the soviets raped or how many shitty people died in the rubbles of dresden? No, nobody cares about the barbaric subhumans that are the Germans. Even if the entire population of Germany was whipped out it wouldn't be as bad as hurting a single Englishman or Russian.

>>1440913
Size doesn't really matter. Less people still work at the Pentagon, but if the Pentagon started taking an interest in deposing presidents and mounting coups, you'd still not want to piss them off.

>>1434344
>muh clean Wehrmacht

>>1436870
>it's a /pol/ quality cross-board shitpost

>>1439010
>>1439029
'no'

>>1436970
>Well that's alright then, even though it claimed more lives and more people got wounded.

Actually, the number of the victims of the Dresden bombings is still unknown. The goal of the official report of the city was to produce the lowest number of victims possible because everything else would strenghten Neonazis. The real number is likely to be quite a bit higher than 25,000.

>>1440931
>43 million Slavs

Let's say 50 millions. At least that's a round number and easier to remember.

>>1441359

The official report of the city authorities was done at the time when the city was still run by the Nazi government. They weren't trying to deflate neo-nazis, which wouldn't come to exist for decades later.

The number of victims of the Dresden bombings is pretty well known, and the 22,700-25,000 estimate puts it completely in line with other major strategic bombing attacks. Consider that Hamburg during Gomorrah only had about 68,000 casualties, and that was a bigger, denser city (so more targets) hit longer, harder, and in better weather. To produce a markedly higher number, especially anything in the 6 digits, one would have to wonder why Dresden was so much deadlier than literally any other strat bomb attack of the war, even other ones where defensive fire was ineffective or absent, and other cities in which firestorms erupted in.

>>1441139
You could say the same about English lives not mattering or Tussian untermenschen lives not being important. Grow up.

>>1441391

I was referring to the report of the city that was made in 2005, I think. During the war, all kind of estimations were floating around. In general, the administration was in shambles and had more important things to do than determine the exact number of victims. Generally, many corpses were hastily burned by the authorities before registration and identification could take place; the number of victims that was completely burned during the fire storm is also unknown. The authors of the official city report simply assume that this didn't take place on a larger scale.


In a city like Pforzheim, where also a fire storm took place, one third of the population (18,000) died. I'm not arguing for a six figure number, but a number that is significantly higher than 25k is not unthinkable.

ITT: """""historians""""" take the moral high ground and defend Jews.
The colour scheme of /his/ isn't the only thing that's blue.

>>1442052
This board will never be /pol/ friendly

I'm sorry

>>1442052
You can always return to /pol/ senpai

>>1442052
Why are you here? Half of the people on /his/ are commies, Asians, or Jews

>>1442052
Oh? What about Slavs anon?

>>1434344
Probably 14 or 15. They really weren't any worse than any other army. It was the SS who did all the bad shit.

>>1442052
Why even bother?

>>1442052
>5 reichsmarks have been deposited into your account

>>1437254
You had birthday few days ago? You should be aware this site is for 18+

>>1442292
>>1442285
>>1442255
>>1442223
>>1442110
>>1442096
Fair point, I'll respect this board's sovereignty. Not gonna lie, rustles my jimmies a bit when I see this stuff, I kind of what to talk about it, but in the end, it just devolves to you telling me to follow my Fuhrer and me thanking you for the financial advice, rabbi.
Cheers.

>>1442052
Sweet Jesus, Pooh!
Thats not red pill you drinking but koolaid.

>>1437254
>le commies are bad meme

I just love how much Tommy is triggered by nazi topics. Good vs. Evil, nothing else and nothing ever changed.
>muh tabloid education

>>1434344
NaN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

>>1441384
This number is supported by 30 tonnes of confiscated wartime evidence and the testimonies of 2500 German officers who were deployed on the Eastern Front.

Also,you have casualty rates for each individual Slavic country in World War II,sum them and you'll get this exact number.

>Let's say 50 millions
I'll leave that Jews and Germans,they just love to melodramatically enhance their sufferings for the whole world to see.Perception is everything,remember?

>>1438460
And the other half died at the hands of the NKVD at the end of the war. Who cares lol

>>1442396
German officers knew the total number of dead Slavs? Interesting.

>Also,you have casualty rates for each individual Slavic country in World War II,sum them and you'll get this exact number.

I don't arrive at that number; are there some new "estimations" I haven't heard of before? " 27 million for the Soviet Union (who aren't even all Slavs) is already outdated?

>I'll leave that Jews and Germans,they just love to melodramatically enhance their sufferings for the whole world to see.

Funny that you say that, because the method to determine the number of victims in the USSR and Poland are demographic projections which are bound to produce a high number, while the Germans count their victims more or less individually. The first method covers all excess mortality during war time while the latter doesn't. The first method also covers victims of their own repression as well as emigration btw.

why is it so hard for people to accept that the wehrmacht were extraordinarily good soldiers while also being responsible for horrible war crimes? how are those two things mutually exclusive?

>>1434344
18, me and my friends started saying it after 8th may '45 and for years people actually believed it, can you imagine?

>>1442735
No,but they've been given orders to exterminate civilians whenever they got the chance,because the Slavs were seen subhumans that had to exterminated.Also,I appreciate the fact that you've simply ignored the 30 tonnes of confiscated wartime evidence.

>are there some new "estimations" I haven't heard of before?

You obviously haven't heard of any estimations to begin with,but I digress:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Poland:5.9 million to 6.
Soviet Union(Russia and Belarus):26-27 million
Yugoslavia:1 to 1.7 million
Czechoslovakia:340 to 355 thousand
Ukraine:6.85 million.

>who aren't even all Slavs
The vast majority of them were,do you even recall where the Eastern front was and which countries it has mainly encompassed?

> is already outdated
According to whom?

>The first method also covers victims of their own repression as well as emigration
No it doesn't,it only covers deaths which were both indirectly and directly caused by World War II

>>1442818
The USSR figure contains the Ukraine, that's what your own fucking link says. I guess you're being just dishonest on purpose now. Btw, the USSR figure include also the dead in Eastern Poland, so these are counted twice in your little calculation.

>The vast majority of them were,do you even recall where the Eastern front was and which countries it has mainly encompassed?

It includes 6 million Jews for once. Also Balt, Tatars and soldiers from all the peoples of the Soviet Union. It also includes civilian deaths behind the front caused by malnutrition and disease.

>No it doesn't,it only covers deaths which were both indirectly and directly caused by World War II

The method of the estimation is the demographic balance, it lies in its nature that it catches the total demographic loss which was caused by several factors. Elena Zubkova mentioned it in her book on the Soviet post-war society.

>No,but they've been given orders to exterminate civilians whenever they got the chance,because the Slavs were seen subhumans that had to exterminated.

Which orders? This would interest me honestly. I hope you don't mean confessions from show trials like the one in Charkov in 1943.

>Also,I appreciate the fact that you've simply ignored the 30 tonnes of confiscated wartime evidence.

Because just saying "30 tons evidence" isn't an argument.

>>1443949
I admit,that part was intentional,mostly because I believed that you're a Wehrmacht fetishist.

> the USSR figure include also the dead in Eastern Poland

Of Soviet and Soviet-aligned soldier deaths in Eastern Poland,absolutely.

>It includes 6 million Jews for once
Highly unlikely,that's always treated as a separate number.

>It also includes civilian deaths behind the front caused by malnutrition and disease
As I've said,directly and indirectly caused by the German invasion.

>Which orders? This would interest me honestly

Orders that were influenced by their racial and ideological doctrines,especially the one were more than prominent in the intellectual backgrounds of Operation Barbarossa,the Lebensraum Project and of course,Mein Kampf(specifically speaking,chapter XIV).

>Because just saying "30 tons evidence" isn't an argument

It is,because these information are solely based on the information which the Soviets have acquired from the Germans on the Eastern Front and during their short occupation of Germany.

>Also Balt, Tatars and soldiers from all the peoples of the Soviet Union
The war was mostly fought in the Slavic parts of the Soviet Union.

>>1438918
>>1439080
>>1441339
This is a set up picture, actually. A soviet fake, I believe the gun the soldier is using isn't German. There was active encouragement of "re-enacting" nazi-warcrimes with captured uniforms.

>>1444061

Not the person you replied to

>Highly unlikely,that's always treated as a separate number.

For Poland at least the number of 6 million includes both Poles and Jews. I believe it's the same for the Soviet Union.

>>1442754
Once you become interested in a group it's difficult to not take their side

>>1438626
"The Luftwaffe was the aerial warfare branch of the German Wehrmacht..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrmacht
OP should have written Heer

>>1444608
No it's not,and the number of 6 million Poles mostly included Poles of Slavic descent.

>>1442754
To be fairsies most Wehmracht did not commit war crimes.

>>1445074
If that were true,then the death toll of the Eastern Front would've been significantly lower than it was.

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19

That's when I found out the truth about how Poland forced Germany to kill millions of jews.

>>1445052
It's about half half mate.

>>1440313
>killed in combat
>civilians

>>1445121
Are you including waged war and starvation in the death tolls?

>>1445178

They're very one sided combats.

>>1445164
2.2-2.5 million Polish Jews is the same as 3.5-4.0 million ethnic Poles?

>>1445445
Yes I am,because they were caused the German invasion.