Did he do anything wrong? Besides for allying with Hitler

>>1264749
thinking he could play with the big boys

His agricultural policies were full retard and served as nothing more than propaganda (and didn't even work in that regard either)

>>1264749
Be retarded.

yeah it's interesting to think about how before the holocaust and german racialism most people in mainstream political discourse were more or less ok with fascism
the CIA used to keep tabs on "premature anti-fascists", the implication being that if you had an opinion before the state you were dangerous

Trying to start a retarded recreation of the Western Roman Empire

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>>1264804
What's wrong with that?

>>1264807
All of it.

>>1264749
Irredentism, the desire to expand and trying to kill off the culture of that tiny but very old minority language speaking group in north italy.

Besides that he was a really cool and insppiring person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uRd8CbX0As

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He ruined the career of another promising young man

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>>1264830
Did these three ever get together and hang out

>>1264873
If Hitler wouldnt have sperged out so soon, mosley may have come to power and we would have historical photos of the three trying to outfash each other.

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>>1264873

Mosley personally disliked Hitler and thought he was a bit of a prick for reasons largely unknown to us (one of the major issues with Sealion was finding any Brits willing to even consider running a collaborationist government), but the two did meet. Largely due to Mosley's second wife Diana being on good terms with Hitler, and her sister Unity belonging to Hitler's inner-circle (Diana and Unity attended the Nuremberg rally rather than Mosley). Mosley was however married to Cynthia at the home of Goebbels, with Hitler present - but not as best man as some rumours suggest.

Mosley and Mussolini however were on good terms, owing to both sharing a common political background, and Mosley's conversion to Fascism beginning with his leg in Italy on a European tour. Mosley took too largely publicised and documented trips to Italy (taking the salute from the armed forces rather than Mussolini on the second), but I highly doubt these were the only times the two met, and it's not out of the question that Hitler could have been present during a private trip involving the three men.

Mosley's first wife Cynthia not to be outdone by Diana, corresponded by letter often and visited once in Turkey, the then exiled Leon Trotsky.

>>1264807
he was a larper

The embarrassment that was the invasion of Ethiopia

>>1265184
Africa is a bitch

>>1264749
Not taking absolute power from the monarchy and proclaiming himself Emperor of Italy.

>>1265184
That was a highlight of his career. He conquered a country that his predecessors failed to do decades earlier and he just shrugged of the League of Nations when they got all pissed.

what are some good books i can read about him and his policies?

considering he ended up getting shot by communists and hung upside down in front of a crowd he must have gone wrong somewhere.

>>1264749
>>1265184
>>1266672

While it was a political and public relation success, it was a military embarassment because of how ineffective the italian army was. It was really, really shit. All the way through. The Ethiopian campaign was the only military campaign they managed to pull through in one piece, everywhere else they fucked up - unless accompanied by germans.

>>1266827

Mussolini by Jared Ridley. Interesting read and Mussolini was an interesting character. A teetoler, a hard worker and a fondness for socialist policies at heart. He started out as a socialist, but got caught up in the nationalism in WW1, which converted him to fascism.

>>1266900
It wasn't just Mussolini, the entire socialist movement fractured into Nationalist and Internationalist sides

>>1264749
The militaristic nature of fascism was a mistake.
While emphasis on strength and the state was a good thing, outright militarism and war fetishism was always going to lead to being BTFO

>>1264873
>>1264932
Can't help but view these two images in combo as "Two LARPers prance around wearing pseudo-military uniforms in front of soldiers while Oswald looks onwards disapprovingly, secure enough in his nationalism to just wear a normal suit."

>>1264749
I went into greater detail in the last thread but in short

+

-Handled the great depression issue fairly competently
-made headway in elimating the mafia
-drained the marshes and eliminated malaria as an issue in Italy
-established the vatican city
-was an expert fence sitter


-

-Screwed up the southern economy in his desire for autarcy
-stopped the iron prefect from actually ending the mafia
-allowed the military technology to stagnate
-failed to reform the officer core
-engaged in persecution sometimes goofy sometimes cruel of both the left and right


All in all when those lads pressured Hindenburg into appointing Hitler as Chancellor Mussolini was what they had in mind - a populist who was bound to the aristocracy

>>1267135
> "Two LARPers prance around wearing pseudo-military uniforms in front of soldiers while Oswald looks onwards disapprovingly, secure enough in his nationalism to just wear a normal suit."

They werent LARPers both Hitler and Mussolini were genuine soldiers, especially Hitler who had a more prestigious and courageous experiance than both of them put together.

Whilst he was running messages and getting gassed and shot at Mosley crippled himself after crashing an observation balloon whilst showing off to his mother and Mussolini got hit by a grenade in training.

>>1267250
While they were genuine soldiers before ascending to power, they were statesmen after that. I went with LARPers because it's the kind of impression I got, although it undersells them. [Basically playing dress-up, even if they once did it for real.]

On a point of technicality:
Wasn't Mosley's injury from crashing a fighter plane, not a balloon? [While indeed showing off to his mother like a very silly billy.]

>>1267263
>While they were genuine soldiers before ascending to power, they were statesmen after that. I went with LARPers because it's the kind of impression I got, although it undersells them. [Basically playing dress-up, even if they once did it for real.]

Yeah I see that, however I saw uniform wise I saw it more as them proudly showing off their important veteran status which at least in the Nazis cases was something that was a key part of their parites membership and rise to prominence.

Mussolini was nothing like Hitler.

Franco was basically Mussolini without the alliance.

>>1267263
Oh I double checked it and yeah it was a plane crash - I assumed it was ballons given how early his service as an observer was

>>1267285
No. Franco was very religious and made a huge part of his ideology while Mussolini was pretty anticlerical

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>>1267263
>>1267250

At least he tried

>>1267250
>Mussolini's military experience is told in his work Diario di guerra. Overall, he totaled about nine months of active, front-line trench warfare. During this time, he contracted paratyphoid fever. His military exploits ended in 1917 when he was wounded accidentally by the explosion of a mortar bomb in his trench. He was left with at least 40 shards of metal in his body. He was discharged from the hospital in August 1917 and resumed his editor-in-chief position at his new paper, Il Popolo d'Italia. He wrote there positive articles about Czechoslovak Legions in Italy.
Mussolini: A Study In Power, Ivone Kirkpatrick, Hawthorne Books, 1964

>>1267285
Franco was a catastrophic boob that was a fascist in name only. He was willing to unleash Moorish dogs of war on the nation in the name of "muh monarchy".

His ideology had no trace of the modernism that was inherent Mussolini's fascism.

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He wasn't a little girl

>>1264749
He was fat.

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>>1268356
Was he Sicilian or just fat?

>>1268192
I trust the sources used on the more comprehensive Italian wiki page more desu which stated it was during a training exercise

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IL DUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOv-Ncs7vQk

>>1267250
>especially Hitler who had a more prestigious and courageous experiance than both of them put together.
Really? IIRC, Mussolini gained a lot of prestige fighting in Alps.

And wasn't Hitler a messenger or something?

>>1267285
Franco was a reactionary. The FE-JONS party resembled much more Italian fascism.

>>1270071
>Really? IIRC, Mussolini gained a lot of prestige fighting in Alps.

Not as much, the prestigie seemed to be more based on how he handled his recovery in hospital.

>And wasn't Hitler a messenger or something?

Before being promoted to a messenger he served in the first battle of Ypres which was a horrifically bloody and dangerous battle (remeber all this took place over about 20 days)

>During the war, Hitler served in France and Belgium in the 16th Bavarian Reserve Regiment. He was an infantryman in the 1st Company during the First Battle of Ypres (October 1914), which is remembered in Germany as the Kindermord bei Ypern (Massacre of the Innocents) because approximately 40,000 men (between a third and a half) of nine newly enlisted infantry divisions were killed in 20 days. Hitler's regiment entered the battle with 3600 men and at its end mustered 611.[5] The regimental commander was killed and thereafter they were known as the Regiment List in his honor. By December Hitler's own company of 250 was reduced to 42.

After becoming a messenger whilst safer than his inital assignment was not without its dangers and it was here that he was shelled and hospitalized before later being hospitalized again after being hit with mustard gas.

When you look at Hitler his iron crosses weren't medals he awarded to himself like other leaders did.

>>1264749
>Did he do anything wrong?
yes
-made a pact with the industrialists and abandoned the corporatist principles which more 'radical' interpretations of fascism espoused
-established a personal dictatorship, such as...
-->making himself head of the army/navy/chief of staff in addition to making himself head of all the ministries. although in reality most of the work was done by deputy ministers, the lack of a competent head of ministry made it hard to coordinate the bureaucracy and the implementation of policy.
-->refusing to formulate a mechanism for succession which made him indispensable to the system he established but which caused much anxiety and betrayed a serious concern with institutionalizing the fascist state
-->when he did get involved in policy he didn't have the expertise to make sound decisions
-->he overestimated his popularity; his propagandizing was ultimately unsuccessful. his decision to align himself with Hitler was not popular; no Italians really wanted war or conquest to the extent that Mussolini did (Ethiopia was very popular but the Italians had a massive advantage and it was gained at relatively no cost) and when World War did come their response was utterly unenthusiastic.
-->Similar to the question of succession, Mussolini did not create formal organs of government that would transform it into a truly fascist government. Almost immediately Mussolini sidelined the black shirts, the ministry of corporations, the syndicates and more importantly the grand council of fascism (which desposed Mussolini in 1943 kek)

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>>1268480
He was moe~

>>1268480
I can't tell if he's just being Italian or if he's actually putting in his own emotions and being genuine in his speech in making a greater and better Italy.

>>1270384
Is there anything weaboos haven't ruined?

>>1270387
Mussolini was definitely one of those dictators who cared a lot about their country, he seems pretty genuine in wanting to Make Italy Great Again

>>1270395
Yo gotta admit that hand movement is pretty Italian though

>>1270313
also forgot to add that mussolini loathed competitors or those he those whom he was jealous of. on the flip side he was pessimistic, even misanthropic, to the point that he trusted nobody and thought he could do everything himself. by surrounding himself with sycophants instead of wise counsel, his bad traits became accentuated more. in short he was a shit dictator who couldn't delegate power properly

>>1270030
this. i read the same in a different book. that greentext sounds like bullshit

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>>1270407
It isn't, we don't do hand gesture like that, obviously. Mussolini exaggerated his hand gestures and facial expressions because they were meant to be seen by people in a crowd far away from him.

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>>1264749
I never learned anything about Mussolini because my country's history classes (Netherlands) about this period are pretty much
>Germany was naughty
>We were naughty too
>BRAVE RESISTANCE HEROES who... mostly hid Jews in their basement. That's it.
>APOLOGIZE
>Oh, and Mussolini was there too... I guess

Can someone give me a tl;dr on Mussolini, especially his person and policies prior to allying Hitler?

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>all these anglo whitebois haters

>>1264749
he at least brought stability to Italy, who had had 37 prime ministers in 60 years (i.e. pretty much from the time of unification).

He was actually not a bad leader, and if not for staying in power too long and allying with Hitler his reign would probably be regarded a necessary dictatorial period

>>1271602
Man, I never thought of it that way before.

In that bizzaro world Italy is the only major power untouched by the war. He probably could have got Tyrol out of as well if he jumped on the bandwagon in the last weeks of the war.

>>1271602
without WW2 Italy would have become Spain 2.0

>>1271663
Unlike Spain, it hadn't been raped by a civil war.

>>1271667
Spain wasn't much better before the civil war though, WW2 brought Marshall plan money to Italy after all and helped them to integrate with the rest of continental Europe

>>1264749
Invading Ethiopia for literally no reason

>>1271686
best case scenario would have been not invading Ethiopia, staying neutral in WW2 and Mussolini dying from some accident or resigning in the early to mid 1940s, allowing Christian democrats to get in power

>>1271698
>Mussolini dying from some accident or resigning in the early to mid 1940s, allowing Christian democrats to get in power
I mean, besides that, that's literally just Franco.

Which is ok, Franco was pretty cool.

>>1271701
Franco was a shittier leader in any case

>>1271703
Franco was pretty great though, his only real mistake was buckling to pressure from communist bog niggers before dying.

>>1271704
nah, too much conservatorism and catholicism

>>1271706
That's arguably how he kept it all together for so long, he wasn't a revolutionary like Mussolini.

The catholic bit may have been a bit silly though because
>spaniards
>catholic
>ever

>>1271712
keeping it together wasn't enough, change was needed

>>1271719
>change was needed
hrrrrrrmm

Spain has been on a steady downward slope ever since the constitution in 1978.

>>1271721
sure catching the train late doesn't help

>>1264749
Yeah instituted one of the worst version of national socialism
Protect the aristocracy while compleatly selling public assets to keep the party in power

>>1271663
You mean it as a good or bad thing? Italy is better off than spain these days

>>1271856
a bad thing

>Italy is better off than spain these days
as it has always been

>>1271712
>>1271721

Franco fucked up majorly by creating a dictorship based on himself rather than creating either a strong monarchy or other conservative institution or even simply the falange.

Whilst he made it easy for him to rule by squashing these groups his cucking of them ultimatley would guarantee the collapse of his successes on his death.

He did nothing wrong

>>1266900
Actually, on that note, are there any good reads on the rise of Nationalism and Fascism in post WWI Europe that don't demonize fascism, but treat it like any other political ideology.

I want to know more, but lots of it seems to be more about why fascism is bad, rather than what happened, where, why and with whom.

He killed 13% of all Ethiopians. Not sure if that counts.

He came to my grandmothers school in 1939 and picked her up to take a photo.

>>1271676
>Spain wasn't much better before the civil war though,
yes it was you idiot. read a book

>>1272889

Yeah

But those are ethiopians.

They've been irrelevant since time immemorial.

>>1271712
>>spaniards
>>catholic
>>ever
no. Franco instituted many policies favoring the church. There isn't anything that disqualifies spaniards as "true" catholics. you're argument sounds like muh scotsman.

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>>1272993
and here I thought Hitler was the only lolicon at the time

>>1272889
>Claimed were the loss of 2,000 churches, the loss of 525,000 houses, and the slaughter and/or confiscation of six million beef cattle, seven million sheep and goats, one million horses and mules, and 700,000 camels.

>tfw glorious Franco won over the pinkos
>tfw Mussolini didn't protect Austria

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>>1268356
VIENI A DIRMELO IN FACCIA MENAGRAMO E VEDREMO CHI NE AVRA SPEZZATE LE RENI

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I like 1920s Mussolini, before he starts dressing like an imbecile.

>>1267204

Southern Italians deserve to suffer, and needed to get dragged into the industrial revolution, instead of serfs serving their Neapolitan and Sicilian masters.

>>1274319
https://youtu.be/tTXhez2mNmM

>>1274360
He sounds a lot like Berlusconi when speaking English.
https://youtu.be/pZ9P6s8WkKg?t=132

>>1274360

Could he actually speak English, or is that a script for him?

>>1274330
except mussolini did none of that. all that you mention happened after 1945, and even then not completely or immediately.

>>1274360
>"make america great"
oh shi-

>>1275530
Now we need a person to make America great again.

>>1274931
It might just be his tone but Mussolini has a much thicker accent. Some of the stuff he said I couldn't even make out.

I truly believe Mussolini cared about Italy, unfortunately he was not that competent. I mean truly he was one of Italy's better prime ministers, perhaps only a few being better. His succumbing to Hitlers racialist philosophy was bad, But you know i'd rather loose a war than be born a slav.

>>1266672
>just shrugged of the League of Nations when they got all pissed.
Couldn't be more wrong. He threw a massive hissy fit when they put sanctions on him even though they didn't shut the Suez canal which would have completely ruined the occupation of Ethiopia and he still cut all ties off with them and joined a pact with Hitler even though just a year before he was threatening to go to war with him if he didn't calm down.
Mussolini was an arrogant sperg and a massive idiot who never did anything good for Italy, he even made the economy worse during the great depression with his retarded quota 90 shit.

>>1275744
t. Amadeo Bordiga

>>1275744
>even though just a year before he was threatening to go to war with him if he didn't calm down.

Source

>>1275754
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stresa_Front

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelbert_Dollfuss
See the part on his assassination.

>>1264749
He made the trains run on time

>>1273101
Ethiopia was pretty relevant during that time though and before uf you bother to crack open a book idiot boy.

Is it just me, or does Mussolini have more emotional depth than Hitler?

He had a more complicated background, he had a respectable journalist career, fought in World War 1, and actually ruled for 13 more years than Hitler.

Something about him just strikes me as tragic, he was being assaulted by the Church, AND the Left. An unenviable position.

>>1276521
Yeah, well, Hitler wasn't allowed into art school.

>>1276521
His life was pretty tragic.
I even get the feels when I read his biography.
Mussolini was a very humane dictator, like anyone with heart could end up like him. Even his death was fucking dramatic.
Meanwhile Hitler was "muh j00s let's gas oh no the reds better kill myself!"

>Mussolini's military experience is told in his work Diario di guerra. Overall, he totaled about nine months of active, front-line trench warfare. During this time, he contracted paratyphoid fever. His military exploits ended in 1917 when he was wounded accidentally by the explosion of a mortar bomb in his trench. He was left with at least 40 shards of metal in his body

Sounds painful

>>1273080
that's why it was so politically unstable for decades? You might need to do that reading.

Yes Joining WW2 That's The Worst Mistake One Can Make

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>>1276521
How the fuck do you expect Germans to have emotional depth?

>>1278012
>that's why it was so politically unstable for decades?
it wasn't though

>>1278086
also i apologize for the rudeness desu

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>>1278086
t. Podemos supporter

>>1278098
The left was only in power for lime six years senpai. Before that was a dictatorship (which was stable and oversaw remarkable economic growth) and that dictator (whose son would become head of falange) rule in the name of a constitutional monarchy which, although corrupt, was one of the more stable regimes of Spanish history. Economic growth was good and Spain benefitted much from supying the entwnte in wwi

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>>1276521
yes it's like mussolini watched too much anime

>>1275767
There's no valid sources on those claims and he was angry with the NSDAP of Austria, not Grrmany.

>>1278368
you're gonna have to take his word on it senpai, unless you have time to dl the following and ctrl f "austria" and read the relevant parts on the interaction of mussolini and hitler.
Kallis, Aristotle A. Fascist Ideology: Territory and Expansionism in Italy and Germany, 1922–1945. London: Routledge, 2000.
>Focused not primarily on ideas but on how the expansionist policies in the two cases were translated into practice. Not only compares the two but treats them in tandem, thereby illuminating the idiosyncratic interaction between Mussolini and Hitler as a factor that helped radicalize the expansionist thrust of both regimes. But also shows how the impact became asymmetrical as Italy’s relative weakness came to light after 1936.
http://bookzz.org/s/?q=The+coming+of+Austrian+fascism&yearFrom=&yearTo=&language=&extension=&t=0

>>1271602
Hitler most definitely fought front line in WW1, he was at Ypres in 1914 and was awarded two different classes of the Irom Cross for bravery.

no, he was the savior Italy needed to modernize the country. He pursued a liberal economic policy until about 1927, and that only changed due to political pressure. He was a fascist, Hitler was not. Mosley was a fascist and if he had not sperged out and formed the BUF he would''ve been PM at some point.

Mussolini became caught up in a spiral of German autismo. He should've joined the allies because the UK and France were open to Italy joining them again.

>>1271602
>screencaping a retard
why?

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>>1278518
He didn't 'fight' properly, he was there on the front lines as a message boy in the army... which, fair enough, is an essential role. Messages and orders need to be delivered somehow. But still, to brag about that role in the war is like someone being proud of working as a garbage man. Sure, those are vital and crucial jobs, but to brag about it... eh...

>>1271602
So basically german autism ruining it for everyone including their allies?
I'm quite sure italy didn't sign into a campaign against both soviets and americans when they alligned with germany against france.

I don't understand. Italian policy in Ethiopia was downright genocidal, but it looks like Italy took a more relaxed stance with LIbya.

Why?

>>1278935
http://disruptivedissertation.blogspot.de/2015/05/castration-at-battle-of-adwa-1896.html

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>>1279006
>Thought the title referred to how humiliating Italy's first defeat in Ethiopia was
>mfw actually reading the article

>>1279024
They were legitimately zerg rushed, 25k italians against 100k ethiopians with russian rifles and another 100k with spears and swords in what's called roof of africa thousands of miles from home.
Not really their fault.

>>1279030

If I recall correctly, the Italians had fortifications nearby, and artillery.

Most of the casualties occurred when Italy fled the field.

Adwa was doomed from the start, because a brash Italian officer sent him and his men forward, and were cut off from the other Italians.

>>1279661
I'm quite sure most casualties were from diseases.
In the italo-turkish war they had more deads from disease then turkish fire.

>>1279671

Looks like most were from battle.

>The Italians suffered about 7,000 killed and 1,500 wounded in the battle and subsequent retreat back into Eritrea, with 3,000 taken prisoner. Brigadiers Dabormida and Arimondi were amongst the dead. Ethiopian losses have been estimated at around 4,000–5,000 killed and 8,000 wounded.[32][37] In their flight to Eritrea, the Italians left behind all of their artillery and 11,000 rifles, as well as most of their transport.[37] As Paul B. Henze notes, "Baratieri's army had been completely annihilated while Menelik's was intact as a fighting force and gained thousands of rifles and a great deal of equipment from the fleeing Italians."[38] The 3,000 Italian prisoners, who included Brigadier Albertone, appear to have been treated as well as could be expected under difficult circumstances, though about 200 died of their wounds in captivity.[39] However, 800 captured askaris, regarded as traitors by the Ethiopians, had their right hands and left feet amputated.

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>>1279006
> [...] forced them to retreat permanently. It was not until 1922
>permanently
>until 1922

>>1278737
See
>>1270192

He was promoted to his messenger role after surviving one of the bloodiest episodes experienced by the German Army.

No other War time leader faced anything comparable to this

>>1275665
Did he really though? I thought the race stuff was basically all just show in order to appease Hitler while the actuality is that the Italians did what they could to fart around on rounding up/deporting the Jews and that the Italian concentration camps weren't particularly bad. Which would make sense given that a lot of Italian fascists were also Jews.

>>1276521
I think the story of a man who did everything he did out of a sense of duty and responsibility and love for his nation, rise to the greatest heights only to become a broken shell of a person as he watched it all crumble to pretty much giving up completely and being actively unhappy at being made into a puppet ruler before being uncerimoniously murdered by his most hated enemies makes for a compelling story.

It doesn't make him a good or a great person but it does make for a fascinating one.

>>1283893
>Did he really though?
surprisingly, yes. Mussolini believed that nazism would help revitalize his regime in the late 1930s, especially the younger generation of fascists who were becoming frustrated with his regime. The reality Mussolini passed the anti-Jewish laws in 1938 without any prompting from Hitler. He genuinely began to think that Hitler's success was due to his racial doctrines and so hoped to implement them in his own country. Finally, after the Grand Council of Fascism deposed Mussolini, he actively deported Jews during the republic of salo again (iirc) without as much prompting from the Nazis as was previously thought.