ITT: state the real reason why you're anti-capitalist

>live in a capitalist system
>so many excess resources that the system can afford to buy you off with NEETbux to get you to fuck off
>live in a command economy
>depending on the level of state control, you either get sent to a GULAG for parasitism, or just starve to death

>>1228077

>while STEM fags get paid a lot more because their skills have higher demand in a market economy.

False-flag STEMlord detector went off the fucking charts!

>>>1228085
Inb4 "no srs I am!"

>>1228104
Didn't mean to quote >>1228085 my browser did something retarded for some reason

Not a communist.
National Socialist actually.

The real reason I'm against capitalism (not capital), is because it favors only the economically responsible, while it does nothing for the socially responsible. I believe in social institutions like marriage, military, monarchy, etc; I believe economically responsible people should forfeit some of their money to be socially responsible as well.

>>1228077
Because it's not sustainable and it erodes culture and values for what's convenient and profitable. Unlike communism it is not dramatic; it permeates every aspect of society without overt slogans or political goals. Peole just kind of accept it.

>The real reason I'm anti-capitalist is personal interest.

your kind will be deported to the gulag first along with neets, where you will be mining rocks for the rest of your life

go be a liberal shitstain somewhere else, leftist fag

>>1228077
Because it destroys free market. The "natural" tendency of capital is to create monopolies, which mean that the free market is destroyed. And only way to prevent monopolies within capitalism is by regulating markets.

>>1228128
Don't be a hypocrite, mother Theresa. Tell us why capitalism hurt you.

>>1228077
>state the real reason why you're anti-capitalist

The short answer is because I'm a Utilitarian. The longer answer is because Capitalism is just an economically realized caste system (in that wealth sustains wealth and poverty sustains poverty, and upward mobility is barely existent). Furthermore, it creates a plutocratic state, which not only uses direct and indirect violence to control people but ensures consolidation of power as well.

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freedom

>>1228077
I don't know why you think capitalism brought "having to work" into our lives.

I am anti capitalist because my parents didnt give me enough attention and I have no work ethic whatsoever.

>>1228165
So you should be all about the classical liberal concept of capitalism. I mean, you sure as hell wouldn't enjoy a system that is literally "ownership of the means of production by the WORKING class" if you were lazy and had no work ethic.

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>>1228077
Because I absolutely hate having my life be dependent on a privileged class of people and would like to be free of the bourgeois yoke.

>>1228113
>I believe in social institutions like marriage, military, monarchy, etc
why?

>>1228156
its a hypocrit system which is killing you slowly unless you are born upper class

I am against capitalism because my family was impoverished by it. My working class family (father was a miner, mother a cook in a school) lived well during socialism, after that we were actually poor. My parents managed to send my two older sisters to university whereas I had to live off a meagre scholarship and income from my part time work. My country's economy is shit now so I was forced to look for work outside my homecountry. In return for a salary (which is below average in fact) I am cut off from my family and friends and the whole network of life I know. I am not living, just scraping along, breathing with half a lung just waiting for everything to end.

We cannot choose our genetic qualities (born with enough brains to do STEM research or born with only enough brains to do physical labour)
We cannot choose our social circumstances (rich people, poor people, nice people, abusive people, black people, white people, it all decides where you start on the social ladder)
We cannot choose where we are born (Canada? Sweden? China? Ethiopia?)

Add to this the fact that we can't say for sure whether people have the free will to consciously decide what they want to do with their lives, and the whole thought of one man making millions while another struggles to survive and this somehow being "fair" and them both being "deserving" of what they get is beyond absurd. This is why a neoliberal capitalist system is morally indefensible.

>>1228077
I am not I just thing the government should have strong regulations to prevent abuse by the powerful corporations. I also think all energy production should be nationalized.

>>1228113
>monarchy
Nazism was inherently against monarchy, he purposely barred both Wilhelm II and Wilhelm III from regaining the throne because of how much he hated monarchy

>>1228077
I don't like certain characteristics of today's capitalism but I wouldn't describe myself as anti-capitalist.

>>1228077

>Personally, I'd like to be an artist or a philosopher, not necessarily an art or philosophy teacher who gets payed a minimum

so why don't you?

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>>1228077

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>>1228302
real communism has been tried and it was pretty great

>>1228302
no no no I can't even.. They are all transition states. I'm willing to allow 100,000,000 capitalists to die if we can eventually reach real communism. If capitalist countries had just left these countries alone they would've transitioned from state socialism to real communism.

I'm not, i'm a firm believer in private property. I'm more against the big corporations and monopolies, which are anti-capitalistic because they seek to destroy all competition and usurp the market for themselves.

I'm reading more about distributism and i like Chesterton's idea about property being a basic human right. Everyone should be able to live freely and independently from their own land, to work for another is pretty much an euphemism for serfdom.

>>1228077
Because capitalism requires infinite growth but we live in a system with finite resources

>>1228453
No, we don't.

>>1228476
Observable universe is limited faggot

>>1228268
German national socialism, yes. But National socialism as an umbrella term can have monarchy, considering it's one of those things that was the back bone of civilization.

>>1228218
Because they honor people. We once had hierarchy, and people were okay with it, because it was how the world worked, and we were happier. We have an egalitarian system now, and now people kill themselves left and right for no good reason. When republicanism and the declaration of the rights of man were introduced in france during the french revolution, they replaced Hierarchy with Equality. It spread to America, to Germany, and elsewhere.

Capitalism has caused the majority of people to become self serving assholes who don't care for anyone else. It's allowed corporations to actively fuck everyone they can and to forget that others need a helping hand sometimes. It's allowed sexist, xenophobic, bigoted, homophobes to get into power and run for public office. It encourages the bullying of the little guy and has established a class system that leaves a very large portion of the global population destitute. It enforces the idea that some are better than others and it forces almost every single culture that it comes into contact with to adopt it. The thing that pisses me off the most, though? Anarchists like me get treated like shit because of the association such a title carries. If you get to know most of us you'd realize for the most part our beliefs are that people can come together to help one another and while some are assholes, most are actually really decent people. People like trump label themselves as capitalists and are widely accepted even though a large portion are known to be awful people and they have little to no empathy.
tldr; capitalism has made a society where the worst people get glorified and some of the most generous get turned into villains

>>1228224
What country do you live in? Moldova?

>>1228158
>Utilitarian
>Against capitalism
>Pick one

Look at Scandinavia ty

>>1228224
Your family were impoverished but overall the average family benefitted. Unless if you do live in Moldova then no system can help you.

>>1228158
>The longer answer is because Capitalism is just an economically realized caste system (in that wealth sustains wealth and poverty sustains poverty, and upward mobility is barely existent).

This might be true in a purely laissez-faire context, but that's a bullshit hypothetical society that has never and will never exist.

In practice capitalism has varying degrees of regulation and emphasis on worker's rights.

I mean, here in Norway industrial workers make more money than many other sectors for example.

>>1228302
I have never ever heard anyone use that argument unless

a) They're talking about the distinction between communism an socialism
b) They're talking about a state that literally isn't even socialist like Venezuela.

I've never seen someone on 4chan say the USSR wasn't socialist for instance. Yet for some reason every thread on communism is full of these right wing strawman memes.

>>1228233
>Neoliberalism
>Open borders, Ethiopians move to Sweden.
>It's unfair that people voluntary helped that man become rich
>What is social insurance

Neoliberalism = free markets + social insurance
Best of both worlds senpai.

>>1228628
>overall the average family benefitted
No they didn't.

Every poll in virtually every ex-eastern bloc country says communism was better.

>>1228620
Not him but some aspects of global capitalism are really un-utilitaristic, like the importance of media and entertainment industry. It's just that capitalism has a really good marketing and possibility to convince people that they need something even if they don't.

>>1228453
>What are diminishing marginal returns
>What are renewable energy sources
>Thinking about the long, long run I.e a millennium away

>>1228653
>What are renewable energy sources
Unprofitable.

Thus why capitalism would rather make fat stacks on an ever diminishing (and dangerous) supply of fossil fuels than ever consider not driving the human race to extinction.

>>1228660
But this isn't true though. The more technologically advanced the human race becomes, the more profitable renewable energy becomes.

I mean, Elon Musk has already become a multi-billionaire from making electric cars.

>>1228542
A very large portion of the global populace were destitute before capitalism. It's been capitalism that has lifted a significant minority out of poverty.
The world wasn't an anarchists utopia before capitalism. That's democracy which allows dickheads to get into office.

>What is Charity
>What are most corporations who don't fuck people over
>What is the government for

People were dicks before capitalism, now some still are but the system harnesses that for the good of society. People can help each other within the capitalist system, they can start worker owned companies etc.

>>1228660
The price of solar power fell fivefold in ten years. It's about to become profitable faggot.

>>1228669
Elon Musk has become a multi-billionaire from exploiting government subsidies and quotas. There's a reason why he's so rich yet fucking no one has a Tesla.

>The more technologically advanced the human race becomes, the more profitable renewable energy becomes.
That's literally, objectively untrue.
As the human race becomes more advanced the amount of energy expended advances with it causing an increased demand for energy, thus making finite energy resources (chiefly oil) exponentially more lucrative.

You can own and profit from oil, you can own and profit from uranium, you can own and profit from coal, but as of yet no one can own the sun. Meaning capitalism has little interest in it compared to more marketable resources.

>>1228077
I really like the colors gold on red.
Tired of red white blue.

>>1228648
Who are you to decide if they need something? Let each person decide for themselves.

>Entertainment
>Not happy

I know that a lot of media is shit, but people like it, it's there because they choose to watch it. I can go and buy other media forms that make me happy under capitalism.

>>1228077
Meeting so many poor people on the bus and hating their poverty

>>1228689
>Elon Musk has become a multi-billionaire from exploiting government subsidies and quotas.

That might be true as well as far as I know, but that doesn't make it in principle impossible to run a profitable company of renewable energy.

>That's literally, objectively untrue.

No it's not, wtf. The increasing technology will make all manner renewable energy sources more efficient, and hence more useful in an economy. This is just simple logic.

>As the human race becomes more advanced the amount of energy expended advances with it causing an increased demand for energy, thus making finite energy resources (chiefly oil) exponentially more lucrative.

This is just conjecture. Oil is easy to get out of the ground yes, that's true, because we have already have made the infrastructure, but your cynicism about future renewable technologies is just your own negativity speaking, and doesn't reflect the real world at all.

>>1228689
You don't need to own the sun, you just need to be able to convert energy to electrical energy from the em radiation the sun gives out.

Fishermen don't own the fish until they catch them. The beauty of the sun is that it won't run out in the medium term, unlike some fish stocks. But that's why we need the government to set the rules regarding the commons.

>>1228533
The world was MUCH more violent before the 20th century

>>1228647
>What is nostalgia for the time the KGB can around and beat my family up

Tbh Russia cocked up the transition and was left with an oligarchy/Putin.

>>1228533
>People choosing to kill themselves
>Inherently bad

Back to the Vatican please.

>>1228302
Nobody says "communism hasn't been tried" but it's reasonable to suggest that "communism has never been achieved."

Communism doesn't mean Marxist Leninism statism, it's a specific societal arrangement in which persons within a community hold goods in common and work for the benefit of each other, without any state structure. It's anarchic by definition.

I'm not a communist because I believe the state is a necessary institution to prevent exploitation and violence, but I can see why communism is appealing. The USSR and China both stopped trying to build communism a few decades after the revolution, because they didn't want to abolish the state.

>>1228709
>No it's not, wtf. The increasing technology will make all manner renewable energy sources more efficient, and hence more useful in an economy. This is just simple logic.
More efficient doesn't mean more lucrative, and capitalism chiefly operates on the incentive of profit for the individual.

>This is just conjecture. Oil is easy to get out of the ground yes, that's true, because we have already have made the infrastructure, but your cynicism about future renewable technologies is just your own negativity speaking, and doesn't reflect the real world at all.
1. This isn't conjecture, this is economics. Within the capitalist system the more profitable of two systems will always prevail in spite of things like efficiency and so forth. There's a reason why every country on the planet isn't mainly using nuclear power despite being infinitely safer and more efficient than most other methods available at present. Because profit incentive will always triumph.
2. I'm not being cynical about renewable energy, I fully believe it could be developed into something fit to replace oil in terms of efficiency. I'm cynical about capitalism because as I see the non-renewable nature of oil is nothing but an advantage in terms of profitability.

>>1228712
I know you can efficiently produce solar energy, and I know it's good.

But the fact that it's for all intents and purposes infinite, and un-ownable puts it at an economic disadvantage to the lucrative nature of private oil.

>>1228743
Prices of renewable energy sources are falling. Solar power is currently one fifth of the price it was ten years ago. They are becoming profitable, and will sooner if a proper carbon tax gets put into place.

>>1228721
>It's just nostalgia, bro
Dude, Russia has a 3.5% homeless rate.

It's a shithole that puts the USSR to shame, there's every practical reason to see that it was better in every possible way.

>>1228749
If the oil will no longer be profitable if solar power is cheaper. It doesn't matter if you can't own the sun, so long as you can own the energy that you convert to electrical energy and sell it.

>>1228756
>Essentially destroy your own society and let it stagnate for 50 years
>Be surprised when it's taken over by oligarchs and Mafia when the political alignment shifts

>>1228756
>Economic downturn due to low oil prices and responses of foreign governments to Russian aggression against Ukraine.
>Lack of competition due to the communist leaders taking companies for themselves in the 90's
>Spending lots of money on Syria

There's enough state funds to help those 3.5%, just they are being used on wars to feed Putin's appetite.

>>1228752
Cheaper prices for the consumer doesn't equate to marketable viability in terms of resources. Especially in terms of things like energy.

First and foremost it needs to be made lucrative to the bourgeoisie on the count that the customer can only really take whatever is marketed to them. Thus the power here lies in the bourgeoisie, leaving the decision purely in the hands of what can make the most money that they would then go on to market.

With solar energy you make money in building infrastructure for it, and with customers purchasing it. But you miss out on the element of making money in any kind of tangible trade. Oil does not have this problem. You can build the infrastructure to extract the oil, to process it, to get energy from it, you can also simply sell it at any point in the process. This ability and potential places so much more potential for profit within the product making it infinitely more appealing to investors.

As with energy you need not consider what's efficient and cheap for customers, but what's profitable for investors.

>>1228762
On the contrary the USSR built the entirety of their society.

And now capitalism has destroyed it.

>>1228773
Exactly, they have the money to be communist. But capitalism is so inherently corrupt and self interested that why would they?

>>1228077
>He thinks Communism means he wont have to work

Useful idiots indeed

>>1228781
>On the contrary the USSR built the entirety of their society.

lyl the only reason the USSR existed for 70 years, was because they had oil/gas, and they spent most of their GDP on military power.

If Russia turned into a social democratic capitalist country in 1917, instead of Commie dictatorship, it wouldn't be a shithole today.

>>1228758
The thing is that wouldn't make you as much money as oil would.

Energy at this point in society is just one step below water in terms of absolute necessity, the fact that you can own it and sell it with a demand that can only ever grow puts all the power over what happens in the hands of private interests. There's a lot of money to be made with oil on all ends of industry, and the people at home are going to pay for it anyway. Solar energy pales in comparison to the extent that there would simply be no point in mass private investment in solar over oil.

>>1228787
> it wouldn't be a shithole today
I love how every communist country was a future capitalist utopia.

The thing is Russia was good under communism, imperfect. But the best Russia has ever been.

And the fact that Russia could achieve it despite being such a shithole in the 1910s should tell you how much industrialized western nations could accomplish.

>>1228289
I said before, I don't want to receive less than my STEM friends. And don't come with "but, if you're talented" bs. An average and even below average engineer is guaranteed to receive a good salary by cheer demand, whereas with the arts one in a million becomes famous. I don't want to be a loser arts teacher in some school while my STEM friends drive around in their cars while getting a blowjob from their gfs.

>>1228778
>Le bourgeosie don't compete with each other meme

Nonsense - manifest, arrant nonsense. You can use batteries to store energy in so your point about selling the oil itself is moot. People don't buy oil for the sake of oil, they buy it as an energy source (and chemical source but that's a different story).
Those who own oil compete with the owners of solar panels, bringing down the price in an attempt to get more profit. If a whole bunch of people collude, there will be another person who undersells them.

I'm a Nationalist (aswell as strongly in favour of the Pan-European Nation). As the central factor of my ideal organisation I do not believe capitalism works in favour of the welbeing of my people. For me, the nation is a spiritual entity like Renan said. Capital knows no borders, it only seeks to makes us materialistic consumers in a universal marketplace. I don't particularly care for the left/right dictomony anymore, I'm probably fairly syncretic in regards to it

>>1228799
Sheer*

A friend of mine has rich parents and they let him drive around in their fancy car. He says girls will kiss him, sometimes give head, JUST BECAUSE he gave them a ride! When as an arts teacher would I be able to afford a car like that? When all the girls? These are legitimate male concerns, and if anyone denied he's a hypocrite. I don't want to settle for a lesser salary and an ugly land whale for a gf. So I'll opt for STEM even though I don't really like it and would prefer something else. This is why I hate capitalism.

>>1228810
I never said that, competition happens. But the bourgeoisie are chiefly competing for profits, in which they have a common interest in oil for the very reason of its scarcity.

>Those who own oil compete with the owners of solar panels, bringing down the price in an attempt to get more profit. If a whole bunch of people collude, there will be another person who undersells them.
That wouldn't happen.
Unless there's heavy government protection (unlikely thanks to the pure political clout of oil) of solar power to the point of it basically being a national project the oil industry would absolutely dwarf the fledgling industry and crash the entire thing. As happened with public transport in the USA to prevent competition with the motorcar industry.

Competition in capitalism isn't fair, it's always dirty, underhanded, palm-greasing tactics.

>>1228781
Is there some society you know that doesn’t run on greed? You think Russia didn't run on greed? You think China didn't run on greed?

China forced people to share, that led to millions of deaths. It was only when they effectively legalised self interest that things started working well for people.

>They have the money to be communist

Social insurance does not mean communism thanks.

>Capitalism
>Corrupt

Individuals are corrupt, people were much more so under communism (what was the black market?).

>>1228799
Wow you hate a system where you are rewarded for what you offer other people. People don't want to pay you to fuck around with paint brushes all day, and prefer having people build houses for them. Therefore capitalism is bad.

Turns out the rich like art so maybe capitalism is the best system for an artist since they are willing to pay more.

>>1228828
>China forced people to share, that led to millions of deaths. It was only when they effectively legalised self interest that things started working well for people.
That's not true, millions starved because of retarded government policy that wouldn't have happened with democratic control of the means of production aka powerful individuals leaving people alone to do their job as they see fit.

>Social insurance does not mean communism thanks.
Never said it did, I said they have the money to be communist.

>Individuals are corrupt, people were much more so under communism (what was the black market?).
1. Exactly, and in capitalism the corruption increases exponentially as power becomes concentrated among a small group of individuals. But of course as with the millions of people who starve to death thanks to market induced famines capitalism likes to privitize the blame, it's not the system that's wrong, it's just an individual. Well guess what, individuals run the show thanks to capitalism.
2. Illegal, and basically a capitalist enterprise.

>>1228825
You mean the same government protections given to all other rival and excludeable things in a capitalist system? Property rights?

The oil barons aren't allowed to smash any solar panel anyone makes, let alone prevent voluntary purchases of solar panels.

As the other poster said you just have a really pessimistic outlook.

>>1228845
>The oil barons aren't allowed to smash any solar panel anyone makes, let alone prevent voluntary purchases of solar panels.
On the contrary I was suggesting they would just buy the operation out and crash it. Hence the example of public transport in America where exactly that happened.

>>1228124
Communist countries are surely known for their diversity and vibrance of culture while capitalist countries are known for being static and emotionless

Oh wait I think I have that reversed

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>>1228077
>state the real reason why you're anti-capitalist
I believe we're living in the USSR, prior to it's collapse and the cracks in the ideology are starting to appear. I think the people in power are waking up to the fact that the neo-liberal ideology is failing, that they were not just "doing what works" as they thought they were and that they were just as ideologically driven and blinkered as the clerks in the former USSR. That said I think it will be a while before the common man becomes convinced of this failure and hopefully they will correct the course. Unfortunately I think there are still many who are bound to this ideology, and a great many more who know that it is not working but who don't know what else to do.

Put simply: I don't have a fucking clue what's going to happen in my lifetime and I suspect that's because I've completely lost trust in the capitalist system. I think I will most likely move away from the west before seeing it consumed by the rabid dogs who have gathered to consume it once it founders. If this website is anything to go by the younger population have already completely degenerated

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>>1228860
>Capitalist mass culture.
>Diverse or vibrant.

a system that is based on a fallacy.
the fallacy of property and ownership.

a system that spawned slavery, servitude, imperialism, wars, oppression, and devastation of entire ecosystems and continents.

a system that promotes the sociopathic to power to exploit and prey upon others

>>1228843
>People's communes
>Not forcing people to share

>Market induced famines
It's strange, most famines tend to be caused by interventions in markets, not by markets.
Markets provide the largest incentive to produce food, guess what, more food produced less famines occur.

>Individuals don't real

>>1228850
Public transport is a different story to solar panels.
You aren't going to have another tram system built in a city if the other one has been run down but not taken down.
Oil barons buy solar panel company, another springs up. Owner of another company(not in oil industry) see that they could make lots of money from underselling the oil barons, invest in solar company.

>>1228835
And what's the problem with that? Don't free market apologists say that everybody should pursue their egoistical interests? Well my egoistic interest is to work, to the best of my abilities, to bring down this system of inequality.

>>1228875
>Not forcing people to share
I see you learned all your history from Fox News so let me fill you in.

Collectivization in China actually went pretty smoothly. What caused massive famines was government agricultural policy like taking the deeper earth to the top (trading fertile topsoil for barren rocks) and exterminating sparrows (causing mass insect infestations).

>It's strange, most famines tend to be caused by interventions in markets, not by markets.
The Irish potato famine happened precisely because of capitalism.

>Markets provide the largest incentive to produce food, guess what, more food produced less famines occur.
Pretty sure the need to eat is the chief incentive to produce food, bro.

>>1228865
Bullshit.

>>1228874
Back to r/fullcommunism please

Le capitalism caused slavery/wars meme

>>1228891
> another springs up
People don't just have the money to build solar power stations all over the place lying around.

>>1228901
>Bullshit.
I know. I just like being melodramatic.

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>>1228908
>capitalism doesn't cause slavery and wars.

I am anti-capitalist because I am emotionally, mentally, and in comparison to my peers, physically a stunted, sad child jealous of people who found a way to make the system work for them so I take it out on them in my totalitarian revenge fantasies where the working class will listen to me about how good communism is and help me kill all those mean chad business and STEM majors.

Fucks sake there's even an art major in here talking about how he can't have a nice car and a gf because of capitalism. This shit writes itself.

>>1228678
nope
tribal natives of africa, asia, americas would like to disagree w/ u

these people lived in abundance of food while laboring only 8hrs per week, while being hunters and gatherers

HGs had the greatest leisure time spent on tribal dances, stories, singing, sex

anthropologists compared the sickly, pale, weak, depressed, diseased, overworked Euro of the 1800s w/ the healthy, cheerful, and free aboriginals and concluded that white man's society is suicidal and antilife

>>1228895
>Oh yes 1840's Ireland is the prime example of capitalism.

I said most famines didn't I?

>Need to eat

Ah yes, all of those farmers who only produce enough food for their families. They don't bother producing more due to profits at all.

>Fox news
The communes still forced people to share.

>>1228916
>Capitalism is the sole cause of slaverly and wars
>Those things didn't exist before capitalism at all.

>>1228895
The Irish famine happened because the British saw the Irish as being subhuman.

>>1228944
ok tuffnutz so when da fug did capitalism start according to ur autizm

>>1228910
>What is lending?

>>1228943
The thing is they're still happening.

The recent Malawian famine was largely caused by IMF imposed free-market policies, numerous famines happend in British India well into the 20th century, capitalist markets aren't very good at efficiently distributing resources.

>Ah yes, all of those farmers who only produce enough food for their families. They don't bother producing more due to profits at all.
Did I say sole incentive of chief incentive?

>The communes still forced people to share.
I know, and that's a good thing.

>>1228927
This is the best post in this thread.

>>1228958
t. bourgouis leech

>>1228113
>I believe in monarchy
>I'm a national socialist

http://madmonarchist.blogspot.com/2011/11/enemy-of-monarchy-adolf-hitler.html

>>1228947
No it didn't, the British weren't rounding the Irish up into camps to exterminate them. They were letting them starve to death whilst the country was producing a massive surplus of food, and letting them be homeless because they couldn't exactly pay rent.

It was the most capitalist endeavor in history.

>>1228944
They did.

But capitalism continues to cause them into the 21st century long after dynastic conflicts and such have ended.

>>1228955
Bro, if you have such faith in solar energy then convince someone out there to give you a loan big enough (like, really really big) to start up a solar power station and prove that the system works.

I think social democracy is the way to go, considering both marxists and lolbertarians hate it with a passion.

>>1228961
Yeah comrade that'll show him! Beta uprising... I mean class warfare when? I can't wait to redistribute their gfs then I'll finally touch a girl and she'll think I'm so cool with my vintage Order of Lenin mom got me off eBay.

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>>1228974
Why did you do it?

>>1228957
>British India
>Colonialism which wasn't a free market and semi-absorbed the previous indian feudalesque system is a great example of capitalism.
>India which suffered major famines before capitalism due to dependence on varying monsoon rains.

It only stopped when the green revolution happened in the 60's.

>>1228976
>I can't wait to redistribute their gfs
That is very sexist.
Women are not property.

>>1228542
>Capitalism has caused the majority of people to become self serving assholes who don't care for anyone else.

Assholes existed before capitalism and the vast majority of people care more for themselves than for others.

>It's allowed corporations to actively fuck everyone they can and to forget that others need a helping hand sometimes.

The accumulation and concentration of wealth existed before capitalism.

>It's allowed sexist, xenophobic, bigoted, homophobes to get into power and run for public office.

Capitalism is not a political system

>It encourages the bullying of the little guy and has established a class system that leaves a very large portion of the global population destitute.

Class systems existed before capitalism, a large part of the world was destitute before capitalism

>It enforces the idea that some are better than others

Some are better (smarter/faster/stronger) than others and this inequality predates humanity.

>Anarchists like me get treated like shit because of the association such a title carries.

You get treated like shit because you act like some kind of enlightened master race while every word you speak proves you know next to nothing about the system you blame for all of the worlds ills.

The way I feel about capitalism is the same way I feel about democracy, it's the worst system we have except for all of the others.

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>>1228979
>Private ownership of the means of production.
>Not capitalist

>>1228977
Social democracy =/= democratic socialism

Social democracy is basically capitalism with a safety net.

>>1228983
Feudalism also has production means in the private hands and Marx clearly distinguishes between capitalism and feudalism.

>>1228984
It was a joke. Rosa Luxemburg was assassinated on the orders of social democrats.

>>1228979
india had a capitalist system for eons

the caste system is a part of their ancient capitalist society

>>1228987
The nobility aren't necessarily private hands.

>>1228992
And that's a good thing. Rosa Luxemburg was a communist lunatic and a traitor who literally hated Germany.

>>1228996
What

>>1228997
I knew it.

>who literally hated Germany.
Everyone with their head screwed on should.

>>1228997
who wouldn't?
germans invented autism

>>1229004
The nobility are not necessarily private hands.

>>1229009
But they are, nobles are private individuals. If an aristocrat owns an estate it's private property.

>>1229006
Then she should've fucked off from Germany to the USSR if she hated it that much.

>>1228997
Hold up
>traitor
She wasn't even German.

She was a Polish Jew born in the Russian Empire.

>>1229014
In these days they do.

However back in times when the nobility had actual power beyond being rich guys with funny names the nobility essentially were the state.

>>1229016
>if germans hated the celts, then germs should have fucked off bretons

>>1228628
Actually m8 no, I'm not from Moldova. I'm from Slovenia, the country that was proclaimed to be the model country for economic transition. The GDP has grown (though that too has plummeted after 2009), but so has inequality, unemployment and the number of people living below the poverty line. Unemployment in the 15-30 age group is nearly 30%, tens of thousands of young highly educated people have left and are leaving the country (including us STEMs). The average family has definitely not benefitted. Question: how do you rationalize the 2008 crisis and its consequences?

>>1228965
How do you think they owned the land in the first place? They didn't buy it through the market.

Even if there were no exports of food, the people who weren't able to buy the exported food would starve anyway.

I'll also add that pure laissez faire isn't the only system coming under the term capitalism. We sure as hell aren't laissez faire today (thank the gods).

>>1229007
Jews invented autism and moreover Ashkenazi Jews are more genetically predisposed for autism. Rosa was a Jew.

>>1229016
But the revolution gotta be worldwide, nigga.

Even a pseudo-race as hopeless as the Germans deserve proletarian liberation. Maybe they can learn something other than autism and war.

>>1228973
If you have such faith in socialist communes then convince someone out there to give you a loan big enough (like, really really big) to start up a socialist commune and prove that the system works.

I have solar panels on my roof.
QED

>>1229027
The 2008 crisis was caused by Senate democrats forcing the banks to give mortgages to broke ass niggers and spics who couldn't handle their finances. The banks then collapsed and the government started bailing them out.

I like working with my hands. I like living in a close knit community with people I love and care for. I don't mind being poor. I have lived with 4 different families because of my fucked up childhood. One was a poor as dirt construction worker and alcoholic and we lived with his brother or in a barn or his car. One was a nurse type woman who was of lower middle class standing. One was a car salesman and his wife who was upper middle class. And one was a rich and successful business man and his wife who also had a ton of money in their family. I have lived in just about every social class and honestly, they all fucking suck.

If being rich sucks, if being poor sucks, if being in the middle of the road fucking sucks, then what the fuck is the point? I wanna work with my hands and I want to do what I love. I would love to be a historian or a zookeeper, but both of those get shit pay. I feel like so long as there is that inherent competition and need for more that capitalism demands of us, life for a majority of us is going to suck.

>>1228980
True equality requires equality of sexual outcomes.

If the women were so motivated by kindness and "to each according to his need" then they would feel duty bound to service the slobs.

>>1229028
>How do you think they owned the land in the first place? They didn't buy it through the market.
They probably inherited it from the ancestors who fought for it centuries ago like most people who owned land in Europe at the time.

>the people who weren't able to buy the exported food would starve anyway.
Yes, this is my point that the reason it happened is precisely because of capitalist forces.

>>1229036
If the German commie revolution succeeded entire Germany would now be a downtrodden poor shithole like Eastern Europe.

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>>1229042
>Getting into debt slavery
>Proving socialism in any way.

>>1229052
Fat chicks need love too as well nigga

>>1229061
Yeah that's the only reason you were born.

>>1229054
Eastern Europe was a downtrodden shithole before communism. It got better, then communism collapsed because the Russkies thought they could outspend the United States.

>>1229065
Nah I was born cuz condoms are constricting

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>>1229054
>eastern europe is poor because of communism

>>1228994
>Roles in society based upon tradition
>Not market distributed roles

Great capitalism m8

>>1229077
It did got worse thanks to it.

>>1229029
back 2 pol

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>>1229077
Pretty much.

>inb4 commie shittier claiming that GDP doesn't real

>>1229083
>calling Germans autistic is fair game but calling Jews autistic is /pol/

Back to kibbutz

>>1229081
Actually it got exponentially better in every way that matters, whereas capitalism has done nothing but make it worse.

>>1229084
GDP is irrelevant.

>>1229077
No shit? Why do you think Eastern Germany is a poor shithole compared to Western Germany?

>>1229089
>GDP is irrelevant.
You're literally retarded.

>>1229089
>it got exponentially better in every way that matters

Czechoslovaks were made dirt poor basically overnight thanks to a communist currency reform.

>>1229093
>poor shithole
In what way?
How is life worse for someone living in east Germany than in west Germany right now?

>>1229095
But you have to understand that that graph depicts the countries during the FALL of Communism and before Communism. It doesn't show the full picture.
>>1229098
Was that entirely due to communism or because the Russkies treated the Eastern Bloc like nations to subjugate?

>>1229027
the capitalist answer to all your country's ails is to replace import efficient foreign investors, workers and replace you

>>1229093
It isn't a shithole, there is really just a difference in architecture. That is about it. East Germany was one of the top 10 economies in the world in the 70s IIRC

>>1228799
An "average or below average engineer" is still someone who made it through college which puts them in the top 30%. STEM is only 18% of bachelors degrees so that puts them in the top 5.5%. Being in STEM is hard, you have to be smart, focused and work hard for a long time, only a very limited number of people have all of the traits you need to do it.

If you wanted to make the money you can make in STEM then you should have gone into STEM. If you don't have the ability then you have no grounds to complain that someone with more ability than you makes more money.

>>1229095
It is.
According to GDP my country should be on the same level as Slovenia, but I have yet to discern any difference in living standards between here or England. Which if we assume GDP is relevant in any way should be better by an order of magnitude.

>>1229098
Good job communism doesn't punish you for being dirt poor. And good job the rest of Eastern Europe got to experience that in the late 80s and early 90s.

>>1229104
Nothing to do with Russkies, it was created by Czechoslovak commies.

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>>1229110
Purchasing power in Berlin is 12% lower than in Dusseldorf and that's with 20 years of unification.

I find it inhumane in a lot of ways, but I don't give a shit really.

>>1229027
>Long term growth with occasional problems

Nothing a bit of fiscal and monetary stimulus can't handle. If people blamed a lack of regulations leading to stupid lending, then why didn't the Americans straight out ban stupid lending after the crisis?

The implicit government support given to the banks that encouraged them to lend recklessly was a major problem.

Eugene Fama, the Nobel prize winning economist thinks that something happened to cause people to default on mortgages and the financial crisis was a symptom of this but also caused a whole lot of problems.

>>1229116
>According to GDP my country should be on the same level as Slovenia
What's your country?

>>1229126
Northern Ireland.

>>1228892
People ARE unequal. You can either have a system that encourages people to reach as high as they can or a system that promotes equality through lowest common denominator. If either system is pure then the society is unsustainable which is why every system has some level of socialism and capitalism.

>>1229058
>Debt slavery
>Not being able to pay off your debts

K try harder next time

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>>1229132
> every system has some level of socialism and capitalism.

>>1229084
I'm against communism but what is the source of this chart?

>>1229130
Why shouldn't Northern Ireland be on the same level as Slovenia? If anything I feel like Slovenia is the better place to live.

>>1229130
You're pretty heavily subsidised though. You shouldn't take Northern Ireland as a standard example for anything at all.

>>1229142
Maybe Slovenia is actually very nice, I don't know because I've never been there. I just like to use it as an example on this specific topic because NI and Slovenia are very close in population and GDP per capita, yet one is ex-socialist and one isn't.

And in the case it is better then well the whole argument about GDP being a good metric or not is irrelevant, as socialism clearly works.

>>1229130
>30 years of terrorism
>Not bad for business at all

All of the smart people are planning on leaving NI after uni.
Also working class prods and Catholics not realising the value of education instead of:
>Muh shipbuilding
>Muh I hate the queen but I'll accept her benefits.

>>1229139
Angus Maddison's historical GDP books.

>>1229145
Northern Ireland receives massive amounts of funding, but this isn't necessary to support people here as unemployment is actually quite low so much as it's an effort to bring the economy of Northern Ireland up to regular western European levels. And the only reason it isn't on that level is because Northern Ireland lacks any kind of consolidated upper class, and I would hazzard this might also be the case that statistically most ex-communist countries appear economically weaker than their western counterparts.

Also note that the Northern Irish police force are probably one of the most militarized police forces in Europe and require massive amounts of money.

>>1229136
>Posts snide comment and self portrait.
>Makes no actual argument.

>>1229148
Socialism benefitted some countries, like Russia and central Asia, but economically raped other countries, like the Baltics, Czechoslovakia and East Germany.

>>1229160
Thanks. I've always doubted the accuracy since it looks as if someone made it up to look like a wikipedia style chart.

>>1229168
Okay.
You cannot simultaneously have the means of production be privately owned, and the means of production be worker owned.

And it wasn't a snide comment, it was a quote from you.

>>1229173
nope
east germans yearn for return

>>1229173
1. It didn't rape East Germany at all, although the DDR could have done without permanently planning for being right at the front line of a war that never happned.
2. Balts are just terminally asshurt about Russians and always have been.
3. I do agree about Czechoslovakia however, had the USSR not bullied it like a colony it could have been a lot more advanced not just economically but in terms of socialism itself.

>>1229188
>Balts are just terminally asshurt about Russians and always have been.

How is that an argument? Finland was on par with Estonia economically before WW2, today it's rich as fuck while Estonia is poor.

>>1229183
>>1229188

>Eastern Germany was not poor before the war
>it was poor in 1990

Explain that.

>>1229194
>East Germany was poor under socialism
Proofs?

But I'm not anti capitalism, I love freedom.

>>1229208
>Capitalism=freedom
Get a load of this chump.

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>>1229209
>it's a marxist trying to explain how capitalism is not freedom episode

>>1229199
Read a book.

>>1229209
>You can't voluntarily exchange your labor and products with other people because EXPLOTASHUN !!!

Communism is against freedom.

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>>1229219
Okay, I have one you might like to read too.

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>>1229222
Working and trading isn't exploitation.

Private property maintained by force of arms sure is though.

>>1229234
But public property maintained by force of arms is pure freedom.

>>1229230
The title sounds real unbiased.

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>>1228233
Morality is not pragmatic. Capitalism creates massive adventage over other economic models therefore it spreads and grows better than other models. I think this subject must be argued with an evolutionary perspective. Civilization is savagery at its most sophisticated form imo.

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>>1229234

>>1229238
Yeah, because it's democratic.

>>1229209
>Gee what if we centralise all planning?
>Oh dear that was bad
>No, all along we meant communes so we can go back to the great old days of the native americans
>Its only true freedom if you don't have to do any work
>Oh capitalism is successful
>You only like it because muh ideology and marketing

>>1229248
>Tyranny of the majority is freedom.

>>1229240
Revealing the conclusion in the title does not mean the book is biased.

Not to mention every historical book is biased in some form or another.

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>>1229248
>democratic means its freedom

l m f a o

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>>1229251
>Capitalism is successful

>>1229256
>>1229258
Hoppe pls go.

>>1229238
property is a social construct son
and a fallacy

>>1229248
>democracy is good
>me and my friend decide that we should kill you and it's justified because 2>1

lol

>>1229264
>capitalism is not successful

What did he mean by this?

>>1229270
>social construct = bad

Literally always the same story with you retards. Human rights are also a social construct, so is freedom, justice and evil.

>>1229268

Retard fuck who thinks democracy means freedom pls go

>>1229273
That's a strawman of the highest order.

>>1229268
Hoppe can go fuck himself, Austrians and ancaps give a bad name to capitalism.

>>1229285
You're a moron of the highest order.

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>>1229278

>>1229282
How is private property good?

>>1229282
human rights exist to protect ppl from becoming property

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>>1229298
>some people are starving somewhere in the world
>ITS CAPITALISMS FAULT REEEEEEE

>>1229299
How is it bad?

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>>1229303
>Capitalism is the superior method of distribution
>EXCEPT FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T EAT THEY DON'T COUNT.

>>1229304
It exploits workers preventing them from enjoying the fruits of their labour to the fullest and working on their own terms and conditions.

>>1229305

Let me guess, under socialism not a single person on this planet would have any problems what so ever?

Billions of people out of poverty thanks to capitalism, do we really want to put all those billions of people back into poverty by having socialism again?

>>1229305
That's communism m8.
Also:

>What is the social safety net within a capitalist system.

>>1229309
>Yes I'd rather have 10 out of the 10 things produced per hour of work than 15/20 per hour.

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>>1229311
>socialism puts people into poverty.

>>1229319
All of those aristocrats were made poor thanks.

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>>1229319
>socialism doesn't put people into poverty

>>1229314
A luxury for industrially advanced nations to keep people from revolting.

>>1229318
If you want to produce more you could do so, on the count you control the means of production now there'd be no reason not to if you needed the money.

>>1229309
Is that why Cubans are migrating to the US and not the other way around?

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>>1229325
Yup, pretty much.

>>1229179
That's what taxes are. The means of production are privately owned but some portion of the production must be turned over to the state to be spent on the collective.

Most systems allow a person to receive some benefit from their own property/effort while turning some of the proceeds over to the collective, the question is how much you turn over and how much you keep.

>>1229326

And did said advancement industrially happen thanks to socialism?

>>1229331

If being equally miserable is not poverty then sure. Good thing it isn't.

>>1229330
Wonder why they aren't moving to Haiti if capitalism is so great everywhere.

Seems like everyone's moving to the world seat of capitalist power for some reason.

>>1229319
Somehow the USSR managed to have more famines within 20 years than Russian empire in the previous 100. Not only is socialism not better than capitalism, it's not even better than feudalism.

>>1229335
>Taxes are socialism
They aren't.

You have a very distorted, American concept of what socialism is.

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>>1229331

Just look, marxism works!

>>1229326
>Revolting is inherently a good thing
Please learn to Burke.

>>1229338
Notice that even Haitians are avoiding Cuba and would rather migrate to the US.

>>1229338
capitalism existed in india for eons

>>1229336
>And did said advancement industrially happen thanks to socialism?
Yes, look at Russia. Went from agrarian shithole to industrial superpower within a lifetime.

You do have a point however, if a country is to be socialist it's better if it was first capitalist.

>If being equally miserable is not poverty then sure. Good thing it isn't.
I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate here. Why would you be equally miserable?

>>1229340
Yes, and they managed to go many decades without any famines.

>>1229344
North Korea is not communist.

They do not even claim to be communist.

>>1228208
translation?

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>>1229355
>Russia
>industrial superpower

>>1229346
That's my point.

Everyone all over the planet would like to move to the US because the US is world's richest and most powerful country. It's no small wonder why people move there.

>>1229364

Oh I forgot, it's the democratic people's republic :^)

>>1229374
Yeah.

They describe their ideology as Juche.

>>1229373
kek
ur advertisemwnt is great
but once ppl realize they go back
even mexicans are moving out

>>1228280
tell us about these ..... characteristics. you speak of.

>>1229377

And it's working wonders. I wish the whole world would live under Juche, capitalism is horrible!

>>1229343
If the community owns 100% of the means of production then all of my labor is collected by the community. If the community owns 10% then I keep 90% and they collect their share in the form of taxes.

>>1229395
I don't think you understand how control of the means of production works.

It means workers voting on matters of their workplace vs. owners and shareholders voting on matters of their business.

>>1229406
Yes, and almost no system is 100% shareholder controlled because there are laws and audits that limit them and almost no system is 100% worker owned because you can't stop every 10 minutes to have another vote.

There is always some level of community oversight in capitalist systems and some level of individual ownership in communist systems.

>>1228742
the feels of power got to them... couldn't be one basket anymore.... just my basket

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>>1228077

former communist, I originally adhered to it because I liked the idea of there being some arcane yet crucial knowledge of society/economics that people ignored due to its political implications. I integrated it into my identity so I pursued it a little more than most, and made efforts to understand the LTV, TRPTF, and other high-minded concepts that were ultimately useless to study. I also used it in an attempt to justify my interest in history, convincing myself that there were definite patterns that would eventually lead towards some ultimate conclusion (communism).

4 years of college-level econ courses beat it out of me, along with watching the failure of Venezuela and seeing the social justice movement go completely off the rails with Occupy, BLM, SJWs, etc. I then went through a bit "God that Failed" syndrome and became libertarian, but I'm now working my way back towards the middle and will probably just be a Democrat from now on.

>>1228233
>This is why a neoliberal capitalist system is morally indefensible
why do you people keep repeating this?
A system of resource distribution and production has nothing to do with morals. Be it socialism, communism or any form of capitalism.
Political praxis is what allows moral sense to a system of distribution

>>1228542
>Capitalism has caused the majority of people to become self serving assholes who don't care for anyone else
you're in the history board
Start learning about history

>>1229515

That's like asking a marxist to learn about economics

oh shieeeet

>>1229478
On the right of the democrats? Or sanders?

>>1228077
Because the increasing rate of automation of labor is concerning. Once most work can be done by machines, and the working class can longer work to earn the wages to buy the food they need, there will be serious problems. And, it will be directly against the interests of companies or corporations to provide for the better portion of humans as it would be a massive detriment to their profits.

On top of this however, I do think capitalism is a barbaric and anti-democratic system that only continues to exist due to exploitation and the willingness to commit all manner of atrocities to survive.

>>1229530

right side, I think Sanders' views on economics are very misinformed.

I'll likely be voting for Hillary because I would like to see Obamacare turn into something actually useful and don't want Trump's protectionist policies put into action. I strongly disagree with her on guns but I don't think she'd have the power to make any meaningful change on that subject so long as Congress stays Republican.

>>1229110
Even today, Germans still have to pay taxes for repairing East Germany because it became such a poor shithole that's still far away from the wealth of the old Bundesländer

>>1229578
>from commie to neoliberal

yep, the Nrx is completely right

>>1229578
You are like me then. But I don't live in America and I never was a Marxist.

>>1229597
>Neoliberal
>Bad thing

Pick one. It doesn't mean what the left thinks it means, that's neoconservative.

>>1228077
I feel investment capital would do better spread more evenly, now that we have working models of decentralized investment with the help of internet networking.

I don't feel that holders of large amounts of centralized capital are in any way necessary to running a successful capitalist state. They're more of the waste a capitalist society produces as it fails to check the exponential success of a few individuals while it grows.

But then, marketing these investments to massive amounts of people just to get them funded might siphon energy and funds away from actually making the products. If mass marketing becomes the main way that firms compete for investment, then this is a system that favors larger, more robust firms. Since capital will still be limited, a larger firm's comparative ability to get investments over a smaller firm. That is, If this process relies squarely on marketing. So we would have similar problems we have today. And it would be counter productive to agressively redistribute money from firms that are constantly squeezing the life out of smaller ones through association. It would be a constant problem that needs constant meddling. That would be counter productive.


Basically capitalism is pretty problematic for a lot of reasons, but it's hard to think of an alternative that wouldn't lead to the same exact problems. Anyone who tells you there is no/will never be an alternative though; is a dogmatist, ideologue cunt.

>>1229546
your first paragraph is the first actual valid argument in favour of socialism and marxist that I've seen in this entire thread

your second paragraph is just more dumb inane preaching

>>1229604
there is barely no difference
Neocons are just a more radical version of the same crap that Hillary supports

>>1229637
Neoliberalism works, it's what is going on in Scandinavia.
http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?cat=27

>>1229629
Humans are not horses.
Capital can be a complement to labour not only a substitute.

>>1229629
Not him, but it makes several statements which are fairly straightforward.

Capitalism is antidemocratic because if unchecked, power will always become concentrated in the hands of the few. If we assume that they're acting in their own interest, it's in their own interest to exclude others from challenging their wealth through anti-competetive practices. And it's in their own interest to protect themselves, even if it means leveraging their power against the democratic process.

It's barbaric because often it's vouched with a certain sense of Darwinism. The fittest will earn the most, and that makes it good. We know though, that social Darwinism is for pseud cunts, so why is it preached in such a way to the masses? This is more ideological though, I will admit

and
>Only continues to exist due to exploitation and the willingness to commit all manner of atrocities to survive.

How many "interventions" has America done to ensure it has oil?

>>1229173
I want communism back, I miss the DDR.

The Wall:
Sure, it was hard to get out but even harder to get in. No Muslims, no rapefugees.

Economy:
Sure, there weren't 60 different kinds of chocolate available but there was also no unemployment and people helped each other out instead of trying to bring each other down.

Patriotism:
Sure, we were occupied by the Russians in a way, but patriotism was still encouraged and no one promoted racial and cultural suicide.

Culture:
Poisonous American culture was mostly kept out of the country. No McDonalds, no Hollywood, no SJW degeneracy. The DDR was undeniably GERMAN. Not American degenerate race mixed brown-black Hollywood Niggers working at McDonalds, ads with trannies and queers.

Religion:
Was hard, I admit that. But being a Christian in the DDR was still easier than being a Christian today in a SJW shit hole that is increasingly becoming Americanized. Sure, we don't have gay "marriage" in Germany yet, but it's just a matter of time until we are like the US where you commit a crime if you don't bake those gays their fucking cake.

Downside:
The surveillance was shit, of course. Secret police and everything. But we have the same today. With NSA, CIA, FBI whoever watching. And don't you dare to say a wrong word about feminists or refugees! We arguably have less freedom of speech today.

Also:
The part of Germany that was communist is the part now, were 30.000 people march through the streets to rally against Merkel, mass-immigration, against the Islamization adn the Americanization of Germany. It's the part of PEGIDA, LEGIDA, Björn Höcke, people in Heidenau literally attacking the refugee-protecting police at night and then hiding in their neighbor's houses. West Germany is the "Refugees Welcome" SJW part.

50 years of Soviet occupation has obviously done less damage than 50 years (and counting) of American occupation.

>>1229705

We currently are under foreign domination.
But the foreign domination from the Russians was still much better than what we have now: foreign domination from the USA

In the DDR:
>There were no homeless
>Everyone could get a cozy job where you only worked 1-2 hours per day and sat around the rest of the day
>Even with such a job you could still afford a car
>Food was cheap
>The radio still played Volksmusik instead of american nigger music
>You could leave your home unlocked and nobody would rob you

In Socialism you learned from young ages how to live by the moral code of healthy body in mind and nobody really wanted to mix, in DDR it was even forbidden for foreigners to get sexual with native ones. Muslims stick to their Muslims, not like today when they say multiculturalism but they actually talking about interracial. Anglos never understood the meaning of multiculturalism because you think with your penis and stick it inside everything that moves and your marriages never lasted anyway, neither do your jobs and EU is no different.

Only DDR was kind of successful before they gave themselves to USA for EU to be formed. When Germany sold DDR for nothing they basically became American puppets and now they are destroying Europe to give way for American products to flood our markets.


USSR collapsed because their pro-American president replaced all their generals and important people with anti-Communist ones.

Like, i know people there still blame communism for why Poland is still shit, but seriously, just as an example look what the USSR did in 27 years, it went from a feudalistic, poverty ridden & war torn country that's people had been subject so social and economic divide for millenia to the most powerful country in the world with vast agricultural and industrial capability that was battling off a much more technically advanced enemy to retake half of Europe.

Like, surely if communism could do that in such a short period of time, the much better system of capitalism could have easily made things twice as good in these 27 years post communism?
You could go to a government owned shoe repair business or just see a guy who repairs shoes.

At least in commnunist poland private enterprise was never banned and you were free to do it - the government shat on these in a major way with taxes and legislation but there were private self made millionaires in Poland in the seventies already - the state tolerated them and they were maintaining low key profiles.

Also one other thing - organized crime disappears under communism due to the massive infiltration apparatus the state maintains. It was safer on the streets back then than it is now.

Is Jugoslavija the best state?

>Free healthcare
>Very good healthcare to the extent that people from France, Germany and UK were flying over for operations and procedures.
>Free education
>Brilliant "arts thinkers" and science programmes so advance, they sold rocket technology to both the Russians and Americans
>Free housing
>Comfy and roomy homes easily capable of withstanding the schizophrenic weather that the Balkans endures (freezing winters, boiling summers)
>Comprehensive transport links
>You want to go to the coast? Jump on a train. Need to see your girlfriend's parents in another state? Smooth roads linking city to city.
>Full employment
>Work weighing you down? Enjoy more mandated leave than most countries in Western Europe
>Worried about overbearing external influences?
>Don't worry. Tito is playing both the Yanks and the Ruskies.
>SUCCESSFULLY

>>1229721
>mfw half a dozen different countries in East Asia managed faster economic growth than the USSR, and did it with no famines or gulags

Here's the thing.

Both democracy and capitalism depend on rule of law to work.

Without that, they're philosophical abstractions, not real systems.

Rule of law is difficult to build, but by no means impossible. You must do so if you wish to enter the modern world.

>>1229087
Germans aren't efficient.
They're autistic.
They are precise and they are detail oriented. These traits can lead to efficiency but they do not necessarily do so.

Precisely machining each screw so they all line up the same way when tightened is not efficient. It shows obsessive attention to detail that while often commendable has no relation whatsoever to efficiency.

I don't know how anyone can look at Nazi tank design and and honestly come away with the impression that Germans are efficient by default. They certainly can be efficient but they can also be bloody minded obsessives that do something the wrong way over and over again simply because that's how it's always been done and doing otherwise offends their sense of "ordnung" aka. Autism.

So can we please drop the whole "much Germans would never do that because much German efficiency" argument. There's nothing efficient about getting pissed and shit on by whores but that's never stopped Germans from being massive perverts.

>>1229737
germanic autism have taken over the world. The Germanic autistic mind is considered the normal healthy mind. Anyone who does not conform to Germanic way of thought is treated as abnormal and in need of correction. Look at all the pain they have caused. Non-Germanics have had to change their culture and society in order to match Germanics level of selfish interest. Those who do not conform are considered irrelevant and worthy of death and colonization.

It is abhorrent that one should force his mindset onto another. Aboriginal Australians do not want to act like "the white man", they have been robbed of their land and way of life just like the countless other peoples whom the Germanics have conquered. When ancient Romans and Greeks invaded lands they would take care of the native populations, building services and roads but they would be mostly left untouched as long as they paid taxes. When Alexander conquered he built schools and library's and the native peoples loved him for it.

We are so ingrained with Germanic perspective that we don't even realize it.

My question is, how did we reach the modern age of colonialism where Germanics have not only taken away from natives their land, but also their souls? It is evil, pure evil.

>>1229173
it was amazing and only mention the good things about it. everyone had to work and those who wouldn't, they would be forced. money was symbolic , but they didn't mind it since they lived happily.
Funny thing is that Lithuania, like other Baltic countries, was the most richest country in the USSR.

>her grandmother obv lived most of her life in USSR
>says "everything was better in USSR
>streets were safe at night
>everyone got an education
>everyone had a job
>everyone got healthcare
>says she misses USSR and everything's shit now

>>1229043

no it was caused by vast chink and jap savings being lent to western banks at cheap rates, who then had an incentive to lend it to ever more people to purchase property because if you lend £100k to someone over 25 years you get about £250k to £350k in repayments, more if they're interest only payments because then you get the capital sum back at the end of the term.

it was in the banks' interest to shovel ever more money out and remove the barriers to doing so (i.e. affordability tests) because the money was cheap, property looked like a safe bet (i.e. they could repo houses if you didn't keep up the payments, minimising losses on bad debt) and they thought it was basically a license to print money.

you dumb cunt.

>>1228077
>I don't want to work Ina cubicle for 8 hours a day.

You don't have to. In Germany, you can live off working 20 hours a week. Sure, it's meager, but you keep your free time mostly.

I'm not anti-capitalist per se, I just think there needs a lot of fixing to be done for capitalism to work properly.

cuz the natural order is biocommunism
there exists a dictatorship of the cells in all cellular biocommunist societies. the single cell entities that create this society do not maintain bourgeois, parasitical class amongst themselves. if a greedy bourgois, parasitical cell arises amongst them, that would be cancer or a foreign entity invading and attacking their communist society.

the natural order of cells in organisms is biocommunism

tl;dr your body is a hive of communist cells

>>1229696
capitalism is a method of resource distribution
its is neither democratic or undemocratic
its neither barbaric or civilized
actions pursued within capitalism are what gives moral weight to the system
You're talking about political action within capitalism, not capitalism itself
It has nothing to do with Social darwinism, this is ridiculous. It has to do with managing self-interest

>>1229812
Capitolism is more along the lines of cancer, in that case.

Very effective but, with side effects as well.

>>1229821
>its is neither democratic or undemocratic
>You're talking about political action within capitalism, not capitalism itself

>actions pursued within capitalism are what gives moral weight to the system

Why differentiate the moral weight of actions pursued in self-interest from the weight of political actions within a capitalistic society? Democracies are more or less supportive of capitalism, and the government and private sectors aren't mutually exclusive parts of society.

>tfw there are still socialists on this planet

when will you all die, fucking cancer

>>1229728
>Zizek
>Brilliant

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>>1229896
never :^)

>>1228701
average people are stupid and don't know what they really want

>>1229940
Brains don't really vary until you get to statistical fringes where minuscule minorities lie..

There's literally nothing right about your statement.

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>>1229705
>>1229712
Best argument for socialism so far. Look at North Korea, wholesome, homogeneous societies. Look at Germany and Sweden, the levels of degeneracy and multiculturalism resemble pic related.

If you call yourself a nationalist, and yet you support liberal capitalism, do kill yourself,

>>1228077
Because it doesn't work and encourages the exploitation of the down trodden and weak and eventually leads to corporatocracy.

>>1229597

It's a tendency that's been noted since at least the 40s. People who are Marxist tend to privilege economics as the primary determinant of how well a society functions, so it makes sense that they would choose the political movement which has the most support from mainstream economists.

Bringing back low-skill industrial jobs through protectionism like Trump proposes is a bad idea because it will only create obsolete dead-end jobs that produce inferior products at higher prices due to decreased competition, as well as increase pollution associated with manufacturing.

>>1229963
It works and social security offers the downtrodden and weak support.

>Exploitation

>>1229705
Back to /pol/

>People can't help each other out under capitalism.

>>1229812
Shit is natural, that doesn't mean your society should be built upon shit.

>>1230052
Well considering the growth rate of London when they started carting their shit out to the surrounding farms, it sort of might.

>>1228077
While walking through the burnt battlefield of debate, I looked around at the empirical evidence, thought about the theory and realised that capitalism wins.

>>1229821
I think a certain amount of social Darwinism is inherit in the system but I think that's a good thing. It spurs competition within a system rather than just between systems.

I have a question to all the would-be Communists and hardcore Socialists. Why can't you let go of an inherently flawed system and either find or come up with a better alternative to Capitalism?

you ain't getting my taxes fucking leeches.

I aint paying you faggots with my money so you can end up being artists making garbage.

you just want my taxes fucking leeches.

get to work in a real job retards.

>>1229957
>Look at North Korea, wholesome, homogeneous societies.
Ignoring the fact that most North Koreans are entirely unhappy with their government and system. Ignoring the fact that there is mass starvation and lack of basic necessities. Ignoring the fact that the average citizen understands that if they express discontent they, and their entire family, will be arrested, tortured, and possibly executed. I suppose, yes, on the surface they appear to be pretty wonderful.

>>1228129
>Market reguation = communism
Shades of grey mates, the answer is somewhere in the middle

>>1229027
You're in the minority in Slovenia with your circumstances though. I have a girlfriend in Ljubljana and when I talk to her about this stuff she tells me how much everything has changed from when her mum was our age. People have more money and soon enough you're going to get a slew of tourism to boost your economy even more thanks to good old capitalism.

Capitalism is yet to give you it's full luxury but just be patient it will come

>>1228335
The Free State literally lasted for 3 years.

>>1228533
I never understand this. The French Declaration of the Rights of Man was more than a decade after the American Declaration of Independence declared that all men are created equal, and a year after the ratification of the US constitution that enshrined equality legally. So how exactly did the Declaration of the Rights of Man "spread equality to America"? Certainly it was French thought that was a huge influence on the American founding fathers, but not the Declaration of the Rights of Man or the revolution itself. In fact, with the military aid the Americans received in their revolution from France, they are really more indebted to Pre-Revolutionary France than Revolutionary France.

>>1228158
Upward mobility exists, it just takes more than one generation or a lot of luck. My grandparents were lower class British immigrants, my parents were middle class with decent jobs, and after they die the inheritance will propel me into the upper middle class. Having fewer kids is the true secret to wealth accumulation. And don't talk shit about an inheritance tax, there are ways to circumvent that (property investment, family trust funds, shares managed by children).

>>1230229
Inheritance tax is a bad idea, just tax consumption progressively. unless if you have a gift tax on all gifts, inheritance included.

>>1228689
twenty years ago solar power was too expensive and inefficient to even really be viable for personal use, let alone as a major investment. Already there are huge increases in investment in renewables, its not happening as fast as the tree huggers would like, but it is happening

>I don't wanna live in a cubicle 8 hours a day so i'm commie
high kek

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>>1230250
>capitalism results in cubicles more than other systems
kekledoodleoo

>>1230200
>mass starvation and lack of basic necessities
Source?

>>1228639
>In practice capitalism has varying degrees of regulation and emphasis on worker's rights.
This. The world isn't black and white.

I'm a Marxist because I hate the poor and want them to disappear

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>>1230199
>still believing the socialism = high taxes meme

>>1230288
>niggers are lazy and don't work
>society should let the not starve, they should be allowed to be free and fullfill their potential to be gangstars rappers
>where all this money to sustain niggers come from

>>1230294
calm down /pol/ maybe you should look at the actual conditions that created black poverty before you jump to

>niggers are dumb and lazy

>>1230209
>People have more money
Perhaps nominal wages are higher now (I don't have numbers now, I can look it up) but just compare this: in 1976 the rent for an apartment took 3,9% of a family budget (socialized housing), now that share is between 30-40%. And please I gave you statistics about poverty and unemployment rate and you give me anecdotal evidence about your girlfriend from Ljubljana.
>Capitalism is yet to give you it's full luxury but just be patient it will come
You sound like an ignorant dickhead.

>>1230325
where does the money that supports your socialist welfare system comes from?

>>1230335
The aim of socialism isn't to create a welfare state, socialism is not american liberalism. Socialism means that the means of production, that is factories, farms, mines, etc, are democratically owned by the workers.

>>1229868
>Why differentiate the moral weight of actions pursued in self-interest from the weight of political actions within a capitalistic society?
because China and Norway both practice capitalism
Their praxis is nonetheless very, very different

This is what marxists seem to constantly ignore: the ability of capitalism to adapt to very different social and political necessities, and are rather obsessed with revolutionary fervour

>>1230343
so that means venezuela style of centralized economy?

>>1230405
No, the ownership of the means of production by the state, is not socialist.

>>1230425
so anarchy system?

how does a comunist system protects it's citizens from enemy societies that are organized and have trained armies ready to conquer the classeless comunist society?

>>1230434
By agreeing to, and upholding a collective set of rules that guarantee the rights and protections of the people. Rules do not necessitate rulers

>>1230512
how do you protect your citizens in case of war?

also mainteinance of public infraestructure like roads.

also how do you build complex shit like mountains tunnels?

also public education and healthcare?

also, how do you stop some jew from taking over using private militias and bribaries?

>>1230533
The goal of socialism is to create a society where the working class is no longer forced to partake in wars against one another by international solidarity.

Labour is becoming more and more automated, it isn't inconceivable for robotics and other machinery to make work on things like roads, tunnels, bridges entirely automated.

Education would be entirely free and available to all people, there will always be people who enjoy teaching and helping children. Additionally, the technology that are being developed is making massive strides in making education available to more children.

With the incentive of profit no longer being the focus of pharmaceuticals more research would be conducted because scientists, doctors, etc, would no longer have to focus on diseases that are profitable.

With general health care, again, technology keeps on improving. A.I. is capable of diagnosing and treating disease more efficiently than a human doctor can.

And if someone who fancied himself a conqueror came along, then the collectively armed people would resist and fight to protect what that society has built.

>>1228077

i'm a socialist out of lack of a better solution, but i very much enjoy capitalism on a personal level.

i love being cheap, i love my low-rent crib, i love being able to buy excellent food for almost no money, i'd love to have more money and be able to afford all those luxuries i have always dreamed of.

no matter the system, i just strive. life's great.

capitalism had a good run i gotta say. i'm giving it a few more decades.

i'm gonna be honest with you though. socialism will never make it. nor will communism. they're too burdened. we'll have something "new".

>>1228113

AHAHAHAHAHA KILL YOURSELF YOU LITERAL SUBHUMAN

>national socialist
>monarchist

HOLY FUCKING KEK

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>>1228113
>>1228113
>>1228113

>>1228224

sorry 2 hear that my man. where u from?

>>1228533

you're the dumbest nigga this board has ever seen. just off yourself

>>1230330
Slovenia is richer than ever before. Poverty line is now for higher standard than ever before. Housing in now more expensive because of new housing schemes. Not everyone p now can efford to live in big house like before, that is one of many, not postive changes.
However many Slovenians has vacation house, expensive car, big house, expensive phone.
Average slovenian has great car and expensive phone, that is something that before they couldn't efford.


However im still against capitalism, because i didn't finish any noticiable free college in Slovenia and i don't have any practical skills to open personal company. So that is why i have to go to work in some shitty job abroad.
I had all chances to be rich and sucessful, but i fuck it all, so now arbait will be my life.

Srečno!

>he isn't a Distributist

Chesterton would be disappointed

>>1228860
The reason I said capitalism is not as dramatic as communism is because communism seeks an immediate forced change in a nation's culture to achieve an ideology. Capitalism works much more slowly, but it will irrevocably change culture nonetheless, and not in a good way.

>>1229823
so much this

Einstein: “The economic anarchy of capitalist society is the real source of evil”
“I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child.”

Hawking: "If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality."


capitalism is ran by sociopaths... believe it or not. If you have a shit load of morals, you won't make it far. Sociopaths act morally to gain interest from people, ofc, everyone hides behind a mask. That is why I chose to escape the business career and went into medicine. More chill and don't need to lick my boss's ass all day.

>the corporate entity is 'an institutional psychopath' and a 'psychopathic creature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_corporations#Psychopathic_behavior
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_%28film%29
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4ou9rOssPg

>>1232586

>The organizational capitalist psychopath craves a god-like feeling of power and control over other people. They prefer to work at the very highest levels of their organizations, allowing them to control the greatest number of people. Psychopaths who are political leaders, managers, and CEOs fall into this category.


>According to Dutton, the ten careers that have the highest proportion of psychopaths are: CEO/managers, Lawyers, politicians, Media (TV/radio), Salesperson, businessmen, capitalists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy_in_the_workplace#The_organizational_psychopath
http://www.mnn.com/money/sustainable-business-practices/stories/the-business-world-is-full-of-psychopaths-grad-student

>>1232586
>Einstein was good at physics
>Therefore we should listen to him when it comes to the economy.

It's almost as stupid as the trump is a businessman therefore he knows how to run the economy argument.

He forgets that a social safety net actually helps a capitalist society.

>Muh technology does not bring down prices argument
>Muh new jobs will not be created

Humans are not horses, services exist as well.