Communism

Im rubbing my nuts right now not really knowing what to do

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>>10855503
sage

>>10855503
And it will fail a minute after

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>>10855507
story of my life

>>10855507
Seizing the means of reproduction, I would assume?

>>10855503
Autism has prevailed. I guess you were vaccinated

>>10855503
it can "prevail"
Question is wil it hold up for more than 90 seconds?

>>10856835
You do realize that autism was created with same vaccines that you're using against it?

>>10855503
it's a shit ideology that panders to low IQ peoples, which is why leftism and cuckness mostly go hand in hand

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kek
Really /leftypol/? The porn boards too? But I'm guess you are the fags posting in nigger and sissy threads.

>>10857365
Looks like 2 different people.

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>>10856835
I was vaccinated against autism.

Эй, чтo тyт бля пpoиcхoдит?

>>10857365
you post this in the nazi and trump threads aye?

nah, kill yourself.

>>10855503
The USSR couldn't even keep an alliance with China, the only other communist world power, and got rekt because everyone was poor and wanted to listen to rock n roll.

>>10857600
>Pearl Harbor before Op. Barbarossa

AmericanHistoryEducation.gif

>>10858199
I won't even mention the last part because it's plain trolling/ignorance.
But the first part seems interesting: the subject is quite more complex than that. The root may be found in the rejection and dishonest critique of the Stalinist period by Soviet side, during Hruščëv's secret report at the XX congress of the CPSU, to which a period of de-stalinization followed. The Chinese on the other hand were not keen on abbandoning the path of Stalin so straight-away, and relations between the parties started to deteriorate, and a quick escalation of mistrust followed.

But I came here to masturbate so I don't wanna go deep in the subject at all.

Came for the porn and this thread just killed my boner fuck off

>>10855503
I do not agree but this is funny af

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>>10855503

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which side are you on :D

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gondola comrade

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the good old days of the October revolution

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even alex jones agrees that we are amazing

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GOD BLESS AMERICA

>>10859247
I prefer the Dropkick Murphys' version

>>10859268
Lenin and Trotsky were just thives. Good thing Stalin got in command or we would be speaking german now.

>>10859441
Are you retarded? If Trotsky would have succeeded Lenin instead of Stalin it would have caused the war to go faster and the Germans to get destroyed. Stalin believed in securing Russia and his power through Communism, so he anexed surrounding countries as buffer states and stayed out of the war until Germany executed operation barborosa. Trotsky, however, believed in a global communism government, believing it could only succeed if it was on a global scale. Trotsky would have attacked the Germans as soon as they tried to step foot into poland, perhaps sooner, and this would've scared the shit out of the Germans cause it would literally be a Bolshevik Jew coming to kill them, the Nazis greatest fear.

>>10860324
Haha, yeah I worry trotsky would have made the same authoritarian mistakes as stalin though.
Firing squads=Not a good look.

>>10855503
sage

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>>10860504

>>10860504
Not REAL fascism. We should try it again and do it right this time!

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I'm not a fan of leftist ideologies at all but I have a fetish for the USSR

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>>10860692
The Soviet military circa 1980 was pretty cool too

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>>10860702

I can't rub my dick out to faggotry like this

I don't think anyone actually believes in communism, I genuinely believe it's just a meme.

"DA RICH MAN BE TOP 1% WE R NO TOP 1% DIS IS UNFAIR!!!!! :("
"Then get rich by climbing any corporate ladder."
"BUT I DONT HAVE THE GRADES TO CLIMB A LADDER SO BY DEFAULT IT MUST BE AN UNFAIR SYSTEM!"
"Or you fucked around and didn't try in school."
"IM NOT A NERDYFACE LIKE YOU, LOSER!"

You guys need to grow up, if you actually beleive in communism. It's a belief for people who haven't aged past 13.
It's literally the same as a 12 year old girl in a store saying "I WANT A BARBIE!"
Mother: "You're not having a barbie."
Child: "WAAAH YOURE SO MEAN YOURE UNFAIR WAAAH"

Literal communism right there^

Plus, it's literal theft. Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor isn't a holy deed of man, it's a crime. It literally has "stealing" in the description.

If I were to come to your house, take $500 out of your wallet and say "Hey cheers bro I wanted a PS4!" without your permission, you'd attack me, and I'd get imprisoned for theft.

I'll tell you what, if you believe in communism, all of you donate $10,000 to my Paypal and prove it, or you don't actually believe in it.

See the thing is you wont, because you don't actually believe in redistributing wealth, you're just retards who think that Russia in the early 1900's was some super badass cool guy squad, even though they lost literally over 20,000,000 troops in World War 2, when Nazi Germany lost something around 5,300,000 (I think).

>>10860692
>Fetish for the USSR

Fucking pervert


*мимo pyccкий*

>>10860824
Textbook Ignorance that has been drilled into the cute little grey-matter of an otherwise innocent American. I don't fault people like you for not knowing what the fuck they're talking about: After all, it's your precious government and their Corporate masters who control the curriculum of your schools and intentionally encourage this sort of non-linear thinking.

>>10860824
found the butthurt trump dickrider
umad that republicans are pushing away every and all sane voters???

>>10860855

>Muh corporate media and education run by crypto-communist yids and faggots.
>Muh every aspect of culture is created by "capitalists" for their benefit because Jews told me so.

>>10855503
Fuck off

Post webms of people starving to death

Any sentiments I had for communism were quickly dashed when I graduated college, got a job, and had to pay my own bills.
Working 60+ hours a week.

Also any charitable feelings I had towards others. Especially as those "others" who clearly did not work as hard as I had to get where I was nor worked even remotely as hard as I do now to stay where I am.

Fuck you leeches. Fuck you all.
To be honest, I really wish you would all be lined up against and wall and shot in the back of the head. But since that won't happen I can only ask you all to just kill yourselves.
Kill yourself for your fellow man.
Think of the housing market you will free up. The potential jobs you'll free up. The boon to the workers who exist today you would cause by a mass suicide by suddenly depopulating the labor pool.
And hell, even then you'll even start to make mass immigration a favorable thing by all at that point.

It is a win win situation if only you would fucking take some 9mm aspirin.

>>10860692
Tbh the soviet aesthetic is bretty gud even of gobbudism :DDD is retarded

>>10860855

I don't support Trump lol. The dyke should have lost to Ted Cruz and never should have been the Republican nominee, as he's the least conservative person to ever win the republican vote. So try again, Shlomo.

>>10860855
>>10860858

I don't support Trump lol. The dyke should have lost to Ted Cruz and never should have been the Republican nominee, as he's the least conservative person to ever win the republican vote. So try again, Shlomo.

I'm not American, for starters.
Secondly, you said I have no idea what I'm talking about, yet didn't refute a single thing I said, because obviously, you can't.
Thirdly, you are entirely correct that corporations control politicians. Left wing politicians, yes. Trump literally put a ban on Lobbying in order to prevent that in the future so people aren't swayed by money, as that's what happened with Hillary with all of her lobbyists and the same with Bernie, the literal "communist" out of the bunch who got destroyed.

>>10861005>>10861005
Why don't you hate the morons who haven't decided to build farms everywhere creating hundreds of jobs and at the same time making tons food, killing two big fat birds with one bullet?

Wait, make that two, So you can shove one up your tailpipe.

>>10857600
Americans unironically believe this.

What's the difference between Socialism and Communism? Also what would have happened if Trotsky succeeded Lenin instead of Stelin? Better or worse?

>>10858318
this is your brain on autism

>>10860652
>needing to run away from that faggot

kys

>>10860324
>Are you retarded? If Trotsky would have succeeded Lenin instead of Stalin it would have caused the war to go faster and the Germans to get destroyed.

It's a single most retarded thing that i've heart today.

Stalin, especially after seeing what happened to Czechs that relied on the "Allies" and turned down his help, did everything right, albeit he missed on few months, underestimating the bullshit that was phoney war.
Trotzky, despite his orator genius and military knowledge, would just suicide the fucking nation under the delusion of "international communism".

>>10861080
What the fuck are you even talking about?
You think farms create hundreds of jobs?
Are you a retard?

>>10859441
Well, Trotzky was not thief. He legitimately built the Red Army as we knew it.
That being said, his warmongering and "muh international revolution" was idiotic.

Stalin was more pragmatic on that shit.

>>10861080
food is cheap enough already you fat faggot

>>10861005
>Working 60+ hours a week.

Mind you, that you are working, more or less, for yourself, not for some fat faggot who you, in the end, will be forced to have a loan from, to not fucking die, because surprise-surprise, with all the work that you were obliged to do to him, you didn't have time to work on your own field.

If you think that Kulaks were "hard working" class, you are a delusional faggot.
Read reports on usury in the Russian village. Especially the one that are made DURING Tsarist times.
Everyone knew that you must do something with those parasites. Soviets only had the balls to actually make them BTFO.

>>10860824
>"Then get rich by climbing any corporate ladder."

Temporarily embarassed cucks actually believe this.

>"BUT I DONT HAVE THE GRADES TO CLIMB A LADDER SO BY DEFAULT IT MUST BE AN UNFAIR SYSTEM!"

Mate, let me feed you your first redpill. With all the grades and hard work you, at most, will land up on the middle class, mate. And halfwits with "proper" uprising, proper connections and proper genetics will have YOU and other "smart" and "hardworking" lads, working for them, bringing THEM their riches, while leaving you, literally, with leftovers so you wouldn't bitch much.

This is how it works. This is how it always worked.
And before you go up bitching about "beliefs of people who haven't aged", I suggest you to stop believe into one yourself.

>>10860692
Dude read or listen to the gulag archipelago. Shit was fucked up. That being said the nazis had some cool ass uniforms.

Nothing gets me harder

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Y u classcucks gotta be so mad?

>>10861143
Transcending class levels upwards is usually not a single generational thing.
This is something that immigrants from shittier nations (used to) understand about immigrating into western capitalist nations.
You create the platform for your children to climb at least one more rung higher.

The destruction of the family and the turn-over to the state as a child-rearing institution is deliberately a way to destroy class mobility.
The people at the top want to stay at the top and they don't want anyone else up there with them. Pool's closed as far as they're concerned.

>>10860824
You are retarded as fuck..
I don't believe in communism, but at least i know what it is.

by communism what is different is the value of work. Lets say you work 60+ hours a week like >>10861005
but still only earn 1000 bucks a month, but at the same time some retard was hired to his parents company and gets 1000/week paychecks doing nothing, wouldn't you feel unfair that you earn less than him, even when you do so much more for the money?
¨What about after graduation when you don''t find any job? or get fired? In communism the idea is in the value of work, thus they try to provide everyone with a job with equal pays.

I don't believe in communism, because its fictional utopia, but as a concept, it's beautiful.

>>10861199
I like how he totally enjoys the joke. "sign your capitalist symbol? fuck yeah. I love the one that's just chemicals and nothing else."

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(((Communism))) is an subversive ideology designed to genocide the goyim. At least you cucks will never reproduce, you won't have to worry about your children and grandchildren experiencing all of the wondrous "enrichment".

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>>10859281
(((You)))

>>10855503
starve you commie fuck

https://youtu.be/8TJTfFRZzSo
You left-wing cucks will be the first to die, by your own hands.

>>10861225
This. But people seems to be ok with that, because they believe that SOME TIME, BY THEIR HARD WORK, THE GOD WILL REWARD THEM WITH money and plentiful shit.

And these people call commies cucks, heh.

>>10861166

Mate, with the exception of Billy Gates, positions on top of the world are ALREADY divided. By, IIRC, couple dozens of families with generation of financial and political elite. If you believe that they will share their wealth and power with some noname, you are delusional.

But keep dreaming that some time Soros or Rotschild will see your hardworking ass and feed you bread crumbs.

>>10861148
Gulag Archipelago, written by a guy who made up a "Secret trotskyism group" to just gtfo from the front lines.

>>10861512
That was going well until the last sentence. Believing George Soros and the Rothschild's are some sort of puppet-masters is pleb-tier thinking, as is believing the Jews control everything. The real wealthy elite keep a low profile.

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>>10855503
You know what? It probably will.
As automization keeps progressing, the worth of human labour approaches nil. Not only are material goods becoming easier and easier to produce by (A few centuries ago, 3 farmers could feed 4 people. Now the ratio is 1 farmer per 150 people), there are programs and robots performing creative and mental work that we once thought restricted to humans. There are programs creating music, and any hospital worth shit has an Expert System somewhere. If this continues, we might actually reach a post-scarcity society. A society where everyone can actually have anything, and there will be no reason to withhold it from them, as he won't be able to provide anything of worth in return.

When civilization reaches the state where human labour is completely redundant, we will probably switch to communism.

Until then though, communists are idiots. Communists are murderers. Communists are cockroaches. Communists are advocating for a revolutionary change that will unjustly kill or rob people who worked hard to get where they are. Communists are advocating for a system that sees the technological progress I'm talking about grinded to a halt, preventing their own paradise from actually being possible. Communists are advocating for a system that will remove all incentive to work from 99.9999% of the population, bringing forth food shortages and starvation, or governmental oppression of its people.

So if you really want to be a good person, fighting for things communism pretends to stand for, go into STEM, get a degree, and work in robotics.

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>>10861579
>>10861579
Jews make up the majority of the Bilderburg's despite being 0.2% of the global population.
Jews own 96% of the media worldwide.
Jews own every centralized bank and financial institution in the world, the only exception being Iran's.
Jews own almost the entirety of Hollywood despite being 2% of the U.S. population.
When you unwashed commie fucks whine about "the 1%", what you fail to mention is that 80% of that number is... you guessed it, Jewish.

"B-but Jews aren't disproportionately powerful or influential, don't be stupid goyim."

>>10855563
I'm fucking crying

>>10860954
>corporate media and education run by crypto-communist yids and faggots.
Murdoch is a crypto-communist?

>Secondly, you said I have no idea what I'm talking about, yet didn't refute a single thing I said, because obviously, you can't.
there are no arguments to refute, only an ignorant autist sperging out
>you believe in communism, all of you donate $10,000 to my Paypal and prove it, or you don't actually believe in it.
if you had even a wikipedia-tier understanding of communism you'd realise how dumb you are

>What's the difference between Socialism and Communism? Also what would have happened if Trotsky succeeded Lenin instead of Stelin? Better or worse?
In Marxist terms, socialism is the societal phase where wage labour, production-for-exchange and and institutions of bourgeois class rule have been abolished - communism is the phase afterwards, where the state is no longer needed to enforce mutual benefit and thus is dismantled.
Communism is anarchistic and thus the phrase 'communist state' is a contradiction in terms. A communist party doesn't want to build a communist state but a state with the aim of reaching communism.

>Also what would have happened if Trotsky succeeded Lenin instead of Stelin? Better or worse?
Historical speculation is generally inane, but the SU might have overtly supported socialist movements in, say, Germany and Spain. Maybe the nazis would have been crushed in the 30s before taking over Germany - Germany might have taken the mantle of leadership in the international communist movement. WWII would likely have started earlier even if Germany remained capitalist, either of the liberal or the reactionary type.
I'd say it would have been better, but there is a lot to indicate that Trotsky wasn't as canny an operator as his followers would like to think.

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>>10861616
classical marxist historical materialism postulates that it is change in the relations of production (by the advance of technology) that drives societal change
the current information tech industry has many elements of this change, worker-owned(high-level professionals are also workers) silicon valley tech companies and the open source movement, which is the most visible representation of a communist mode of production today

>Communists are advocating for a revolutionary change that will unjustly kill or rob people who worked hard to get where they are.
some guy who got a small loan of 10 million dollars from his daddy did not work hard to get where they are. People living off their rents do not work hard to get where they are. The whole system of money, especially in the age of floating currencies is completely detached from the real economy.

>Communists are advocating for a system that sees the technological progress I'm talking about grinded to a halt, preventing their own paradise from actually being possible.
nonsensical. the US government started DARPA because the state-funded research and tech programmes of the Soviet Union were catching up far to fast to their liking.

>Communists are advocating for a system that will remove all incentive to work from 99.9999% of the population, bringing forth food shortages and starvation, or governmental oppression of its people.
I'm not sure of the level of ignorance at play here, but a socialist system or a planned economy does not mean that 'everyone is paid the same' etc etc.
also you might find this video informative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgKKPQiRRag

>>10861645
If you believe Jews run the world, then you're too stupid to understand the truth.

>>10861774
Do you actually believe a planned economy works? You have to be really naive to think it's actually feasable and won't collapse within less than a few decades.

>>10861106
>Stalin did everything right
>Soviet forces NOT EVEN DEPLOYED FOR ACTION on 22 june 41

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>>10861645
Jews are one thing, but did you know there is actually a group of people who form 100% of the '1%'

THE FUCKING CAPITALIST CLASS

I'm not even going to go into your out-of-the-ass figures
you nazi faggots don't even care about being cucked by herr führer, as long as the dick that fucks your wife belongs to Otto instead of Jamal

>>10861790
>You have to be really naive to think it's actually feasable and won't collapse within less than a few decades.
I see a claim but no arguments in support of it.
What do you think market analysts do? A planned economy works in a capitalist framework, so why not in a socialist one? The IT and Internet revolutions have opened up incredible possibilities in terms of planning. For instance production for consumption is classically made by models and predictions, but in the modern day it would be trivial to implement a system where you simply ask people what they need - like Amazon but publically owned and for the whole of personal consumption starting from nourishment up to high-tech goods.
If you want one formulation of how a planned economy might work read 'Towards a New Socialism' by Paul Cockshott and Allin Cottrell
http://ricardo.ecn.wfu.edu/~cottrell/socialism_book/new_socialism.pdf

>>10861820
>where you simply ask people what they need
>need

People need food water and shelter. Beyond those things i doubt a managed economy would provide anything other than suffering.

Putting everything under government control makes it EASIER for the system to be corrupt not harder.

>>10861820
I know what market analysts do, they don't plan an economy but anticipate for the coming year what they expect to happen. A government can never know as much as the individual to determine it's needs and wants. This point was already made and proven by Hayek in 1945. You can't let other people decide for you what you need and what you get or what is available. A company or business responds way better to a market based economy than a government or central institution does.

https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://home.uchicago.edu/~vlima/courses/econ200/spring01/hayek.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj6l8zph-3UAhUILFAKHRjZBd8QFghIMAQ&usg=AFQjCNG5Q1aZ88_ehW-M91Zr9jzpgN_bAA

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>>10860824
could those corporate dicks BE any further down your throat?

>>10861774
>some guy who got a small loan of 10 million dollars from his daddy did not work hard to get where they are.
But his daddy worked hard to get him there.
Ensuring that your children have a good start is the prime incentive for the vast majority of population. Attempts at minimizing the effects of inheritance always result in reduction of productivity. Besides, since intelligence is hereditary, and high IQ correlates with high income, we can pretty safely assume that MOST of the children of rich people would, in a fully equal starting environment, also become rich. But hey, you want to argue that currently the system is skewed too far on the side of maximizing productivity, and there's a chance we don't have full equality of opportunity? Fine. I'd actually agree, to some extent. But arguing that the solution isn't adjusting capitalism, which has reliably been proven to work, but switching to communism, which ALWAYS failed, then you're a cockroach.

>nonsensical. the US government started DARPA because the state-funded research and tech programmes of the Soviet Union were catching up far to fast to their liking.
And they were doing that because their government was oppressing them. They were forced to work in inhuman conditions under fear of execution or extraction to labout camps.
I live in eastern europe, we remember how shitty your scum system is.

>I'm not sure of the level of ignorance at play here, but a socialist system or a planned economy does not mean that 'everyone is paid the same' etc etc.
Yes it does.
The further you go towards pure socialism, the more you decrease productivity. If you push hard enough, you will eventually get your country starving, conquered, or oppressed. Sure, a few social programs will only slightly stifle productivity, but outright communism will destroy your country.

I'm sorry, but you'll just have to get a job. Eventually. And no, I'm not watching your propaganda.

>>10861832
>Beyond those things i doubt a managed economy would provide anything other than suffering.
Doubt away, but you haven't really provided any arguments either way.
>Putting everything under government control makes it EASIER for the system to be corrupt not harder.
Yes, but it is not an inherent part of public decisionmaking. The least corrupt countries even within capitalism are powerful unitary states with extensive social programmes.

>>10861839
>I know what market analysts do, they don't plan an economy but anticipate for the coming year what they expect to happen.
And what do they do with their anticipation? They utilise the information to plan ahead.
>You can't let other people decide for you what you need and what you get or what is available.
But you already do.
>what you need
marketing
>what you get or what is available
descisions for the execs, not the consumer

Hayek is a hack, the subjective marginal value theory or whatever it was is just pure liberal ideology. The freedom of liberalism is the freedom to choose between starvation and slavery - at best you get to choose which master to enslave yourself to.

The economy exists so that people's needs are served - so why do the people work for the economy, instead of the economy working for the people?

>>10861820
>>10861774
ayo gurl i got a sweet helicopter fancy a ride?

>>10861370
reminder that //hitler\\ was untermensch

>>10861876
>Hayek is a hack, the subjective marginal value theory or whatever it was is just pure liberal ideology.

>Now Marx? No ideology or silly utopism that has been proven to have no basis in reality time and time again. No siree.

>>10861876
Dude.
I don't know which liberal arts college you're getting this propaganda shoved down your throat but trust me, you need to leave. For your own good.
Once you stop being useful, they'll put a bullet in your head, and then they'll put their dicks in the wound, and then they'll put your body in a ditch.

Every single communist uprising was psycho/sociopaths using naive idealists to get power.

>>10861871
>But his daddy worked hard to get him there.
But deeds of the daddy aren't deeds of the son, and now meritocracy is no longer applies.

>But arguing that the solution isn't adjusting capitalism, which has reliably been proven to work
Capitalism has a number of inherent contradictions that make it unstable, TRPF and the consolidation of capital to mention two.

>but switching to communism, which ALWAYS failed, then you're a cockroach
depends on what you concider failure. The Soviet Union did in 10 years what the Western industrial expansion did in 100. Life expectancy in Mao's China shot up even DURING the massive famine. Cuba is the only country with ecologically sustainable high quality of life, compare socialist Somalia of the 80s to the anarcho-capitalist Somalia of today etc.
Either way I'm not really advocating bringing back the Soviet Union anyway.

>I live in eastern europe, we remember how shitty your scum system is.
I guess Poland. Despite the mental image and memes the Bloc was quite diverse in terms of economy and experience, compare Bulgaria to GDR to Poland to Czechoslovakia.

>The further you go towards pure socialism, the more you decrease productivity. If you push hard enough, you will eventually get your country starving, conquered, or oppressed. Sure, a few social programs will only slightly stifle productivity, but outright communism will destroy your country.
Quite a high level of ignorance, then. You'd do well to understand what you are critiqueing so sternly.

>And no, I'm not watching your propaganda.
My propaganda? It's made by your fellow capitalists, not socialists. Either way what are you doing here if you are unwilling to have your position challenged?

>>10861922
You'll never have full meritocracy. You'll never fully remove racism. You'll never have the perfect world.

And if you'll try, you'll eventually find yourself taking measures that only end up making everything worse.

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>>10861881
vid related. Daily reminder that your beloved Pinochet fucked over Chile's economy and society for decades.

>>10861895
I'm not saying Marx or Marxists don't have ideology, I'm saying liberals (of both social-conservative and social-liberal varieties) are blind to theirs.

>>10861905
Ah, the 'naive liberal arts college student' meme. Doesn't really apply to me I'm afraid, but thanks for your concern anyway.
I suggest you study some philosophy, would do good for you.

>>10861942
>You'll never have full meritocracy. You'll never fully remove racism.
Yes, but I'll take an approximation to one and zero respectively.
>You'll never have the perfect world.
Yes, because there is no such thing.
>And if you'll try, you'll eventually find yourself taking measures that only end up making everything worse.
>Trying to make things better makes things worse
Slave mentality. Emancipate yourself.

>>10855503
ah yes the soviet union - well known for its poverty and starvation

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>>10861954
>Ah, the 'naive liberal arts college student' meme. Doesn't really apply to me I'm afraid, but thanks for your concern anyway.
Oh. So you're one of the sociopaths.
That explains it.

>>10861832
>Putting everything under government control
the government being what, a small number of state rulers, i.e. not marxism?

>>10861987
The sociopaths are the ones who can close their eyes and minds from the absurdity, the unsustainability, the exploitation of the current system.
I'm not the one advocating for a system where the homeless scurry at the doorsteps of eternally empty apartment blocks bought out by property investors.
I'm not the one advocating for a system where people go hungry while simultaneously crops are being deliberately destroyed and food is deliberately ruined and thrown away for the benefit of nobody.
And in the current system, both of these obviously absurd things are completely in the rational self-interest of the perpetrators.

So no, friend, it is not me who is the sociopath.

This thread is shit, not content that is supposed to be on /gif/, low quality bait, and to top it all it's full of shills

>>10861818
Except the mass frontline units that were assuming defensive positions on the border four hours before the attack.

Anyone going to hamburg here pals ?

>>10859268
>People actually like 21 pilots
What has this world come to?

>>10862029
Welcome to July, buddy. Just come here for the porn until early September. It'll start to die down by then.

>>10861159
REEEEE COMMUNISTS OUT OF ILLINOIS YOU DID ENOUGH DAMAGE REEEEEE

>>10861780
And what, pray tell, is the truth?
Why is the undeniable Jewish influence on our foreign policy, news and culture not an issue?

>>10861820
>CAPITALIST
This is a slur invented by communists to conflate the focus on markets with a focus on capital.
>Class
You know what the Best part of classes is? You are Mobile! To an extent it is a function of merit, rags to riches does happen.
The biggest problem I have with Jewish influence is that they do not play by the book, if you can't tell white people do not have as strong of an ingroup preference as Jews do. In fact the biggest enemy of white nationalist are fellow white men who fight the hardest against cooperation.
The Jew on the other hand has no problem lying cheating and stealing, and worst of all covering for each other.

>>10861370
>to genocide goyim
>when all huge corporations are owned by jews
????

>>10861876
>Doubt away, but you haven't really provided any arguments either way
Is there any historical proof backing up government's ability to centrally plan an economy for a significant amount of time?
Communism has been tried several times there much be some historical proof

>>10861922
>deeds of the daddy aren't deeds of the son, and now meritocracy is no longer applies.
Well then who inherits the business when he passes? Does it just dissolve?
Of course a father wants his son to succeed the business however, once in the hands of the son, is subject to the market and the continued success or failure is still an indication of merit or lack there of

>>10861942
>remove racism
Why would you even want to do that?

>>10861954
>Pinochet fucked over Chile's economy and society for decades
By what standards?

>>10855503
>Communism has been tried several times there much be some historical proof

When has there been a stateless, moneyless society that has completely abolished production for exchange and wage labor?

>>10862298
>Stateless society
>Centrally planned economy
Communists are a special kind of stupid

>>10862298
>literally communism has never been tried before
Hey neither has capitalism! These markets aren't free enough! Therefore they are above criticism!

>>10862298
>abolished production for exchange and wage labor
Is it just me or is this word salad without meaning?

>>10862271
>This is a slur invented by communists to conflate the focus on markets with a focus on capital.
Nonsense. Please provide some kind of source if you wish to prove me wrong.

>You know what the Best part of classes is? You are Mobile! To an extent it is a function of merit, rags to riches does happen
Social mobility does happen, but it is a very minor phenomenon in real terms.
Of course I could become an investment banker and live off rent but it is unproductive work and I have no wish to wear the boot on the throat of the workers. It is not for myself only that I wish to end exploitation altogether.

>The biggest problem I have with Jewish influence is that they do not play by the book
Once you start thinking of poorly defined racial groups as monolithic, you've already went off the rails. De-/pol/ yourself.

>>10862290
>Well then who inherits the business when he passes?
The business goes to the people working in the business.

>>10862281
>>10862298
One does not have to stay limited to socialist or ostensibly socialist states: Japan, Singapore and South Korea had very heavy state involvement in the planning of their economies, even if they weren't direct command economies. And despite serious flaws, the Stalinist command economy of USSR did achieve great gains. Either way the modern world has so many new methodologies of planning, see second part of >>10861820

>>10862317
it's just the classical confusion in terminology, I quote myself from >>10861725:
>In Marxist terms, socialism is the societal phase where wage labour, production-for-exchange and and institutions of bourgeois class rule have been abolished - communism is the phase afterwards, where the state is no longer needed to enforce mutual benefit and thus is dismantled. Communism is anarchistic and thus the phrase 'communist state' is a contradiction in terms. A communist party doesn't want to build a communist state but a state with the aim of reaching communism.

>>10861099
r u dumb

>>10860716
>>10860702
Can you give me sauce on the music?

>>10862344
Just you
>reed moar buks

>>10862390
Red Alert 3 OST - Hell March 3

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Don't you love how fascists got memed everyday since 1930

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>>10862411
Thanks a lot. Here is my favourite communist war edit. <3

>>10862378
The inherent point being lost by appliying what communism in its true purpose is to what we have witnessed via Russia, Vietnam, China, Cuba, etc... Is that instead of the people being formally educated to what a communist system is, they are pulled into the seduction of their "communist" leaders and taken advantage of. Leaders like stalin, Kim Il Sung, and Mao turned the revolutions into private investments that benefits a dictator rule, thus muddling the true position and power a real communist country could hold.

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Capitalists will never stop embarassing themselves

>>10862292
Because racism is by definition irrational. Even if you think that all blacks are dumb, then why not discriminate based on ability rather than vaguely defined racial characteristics? Smart blacks are more useful than dumb whites.

>>10862344
It's you and everyone who doesn't understand economic/marxist terminology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_value
for 'production for exchange'
as opposed to 'production for use'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_value
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_labour
You have the greatest source of information in all human history at your fingertips, why do I need to spoonfeed you this information?

>>10862419
Youre mixing up bad leadership with facism, even facism as a system could work, but people like hitler and Mussolini turned it into a buzzword for liberal americans to scream anytime their welfare state is threatened

>>10862378
>The business goes to the people working in the business.
Why?
That sounds incredibly dumb. Who would hire permanent employees if your hard work just gets absorbed by the masses when you die anyway? Or better than using temps
Why wouldn't I hire only family members?
As it is right now, I am the president of my family's small business and have grown out substantially. I am a sales representative of a larger producer of industrial equipment.
The way the company is set up is as follows
They have a patent on thier machinery, and use some skilled labor and a few unskilled labor to assemble the machines
My company and I sell these machines to our customers and we are responsible for the service and repairs as well as audits for them.

I'm the event the president, who started this multi million dollar company out of his garage in the late 90s, dies what should happen to this company? Who is in charge of running the company and filling his shoes?
As it stands now, it's part of his will and contingencies are in place for such an event.
Now is there anything wrong with executing these contingencies?

>>10862449
A vague point youre missing is that, when you are in a system, it makes sense, but it does not make it right. You cannot see the forst for the trees because a true communist life has never been achieved due to others such as yourself.
Blinders are for horses and businessmen.

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>>10862436
>fascism isn't a bad system, that wasn't REAL fascism
you tried, you really did

welfare is a fucking buzzword for you because you don't fucking understand it. rural red state americans are the ones benefiting the most statistically, especially from education initiatives (which there aren't enough of, since rural americans are fucking illiterate on virtually all issues)

>>10862432
>racism is by definition irrational
Yeah if you use the retarded Google definition which states that it's not racist if racially motivated views don't result in you believing you are superior.
Racial groups have collective interests and eliminating your ability to recognize this only results in conflicts between these groups.

>>10862462
>true communist life has never been achieved
I thought this was just a meme
Wew lad

>>10862465
Ok...not sure you have a point? Other than being butthurt i said liberal. Americans are partisaned, liberal or conservative right? Wrong, americans are just too fucking stupid to research anything, hence the fact that out of 142 presidential candidates only 3 were represented and spoonfed via partisan media to a dumb public.

>>10862432
>It's you and everyone who doesn't understand economic/marxist terminology
>You have to learn my lexicon in order for me to describe why my edgy system totally works guys
>No I can't use layman's terms to describe this ideology for the layman

>>10862246
Because there's no evidence.

If you're gullible enough to believe in the "international Jewish conspiracy", you've failed the test. And only /pol/ will accept you then.

>>10862478
2 actually

>>10862465
>rural americans are fucking illiterate
Source on that?
It's going to be lower than average for sure if for no other reason than the existence of the black belt.

>>10862449
>Who would hire permanent employees if your hard work just gets absorbed by the masses when you die anyway?
I don't understand. Are you seriously suggesting that you wouldn't work for the improvement of yourself and your fellow man because of something that happens after you die? Dead people do not care on account of being, you know, dead.
>Why wouldn't I hire only family members?
Because you are more interested in the business itself rather than blind nepotism? Note that under the type of system I'm advocating your offspring's welfare is not dependent on the welfare of their family, and thus amassing wealth is not necessary for survival.
>Now is there anything wrong with executing these contingencies?
The continued extraction of surplus value. Divide the company among the people working in it and then hire a manager from the outside.

>>10862470
>Racial groups have collective interests and eliminating your ability to recognize this only results in conflicts between these groups.
And what are these collective interest, pray do tell? Unlike identitarians like SJWs and White Supremacists etc. I don't care about the colour of the foot on my throat. White foot, Jewish foot, Black foot crushes all the same.

>>10862473
One more time: Communist parties make socialist states that aim to reach communism
in the marxist sense, communism is stateless
this is why this stupid ass meme exists

>>10862480
I'm not allowed to use terms of political economy in a discussion about political economy? I also provided the material necessary to understand this terminology, what more do you want? Calling everything you don't understand a 'word salad' is just being wilfully ignorant and unwilling to learn.
One of the reasons for persistent economic illiteracy is the excessive dumbing down of the ideas contained, for example the conflation of household and national debt that have very very little to do with each other in real terms.

>>10862503
>Because there's no evidence.
Well Jews in Hollywood is something they will eagerly admit to themselves and it only takes a cursory glance at the employees and employers to notice there's a disproportionate amount of them (greater than 2%) working in the news
You can do likewise when you look at government representatives including the supreme Court.
Go figure a significant amount of Jews in the government leads us to fight conflicts on thier behalf and provide defence for a country that has actively sunk our vessels in the past.

>>10862465
>concentrate riches on coasts
>are mad that rural states are poor

To a degree it's ironic that countries that would benefit the most from socialist policies are full red while the ones who were built on pure capitalism voted are blue for the better part of the last century.

>>10862558
But there are anti-Israel Jews, and fanatically pro-Israel Jews, and everything in between. Similarly the support for Israel is divided in other ethnic groups as well. Many evangelical christians are fanatically pro-Israel. Almost as if the racial groups can't be treated as hiveminds.

And USA also gets a compliant proto-client state in a key region, so it's not a completely one-sided deal.

>>10862546
>wouldn't work for the improvement of yourself and your fellow man because of something that happens after you die?
Yes. That's correct. You do not work as hard if you cannot pass it down to your children. Especially in a multicultural society like we have today.
You also have to consider which is better for the nation, the forced redistribution of a formally stable company or the continued growth and productivity of the company.
You break down the ability for the owner to be a truly great manager by prohibiting him from grooming his replacement.
Now if that's not what you mean you are going to have to be more specific as to what you mean by the workers own the company and what gives the workers the right to that capital as opposed to any other involved party?
Granted my answer would be slightly different in an ethno state where you could be reasonably assured that your efforts would be going to people who are actually your people by blood but even then I'd rather be in control of my property. That's the whole point of property, to accumulate wealth and be self sufficient
Communism inherently is an attack on self sufficiency

>>10862546
>And what are these collective interest, pray do tell?
Wealth redistribution/construction and maintenance of the commons, public services, immigration and foreign policy.
So in other words
The foundation of any society.

>>10859247
panopticon also has a good version as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwIvn27PgsA

>>10862602
"Not all x are like that" is not an argument. The fact is that largely it is true and it is true among those who wish to work in tribal unity.
One might not be pro Israel but they will support Israel when it's convenient.

>>10862546
>I'm not allowed to use veiled terms of political economy created and given additional meaning by my ideology in a discussion about political economy?
Yes that's correct.

obfuscation is frowned upon in political discussions, use of common terms is the standard.
You can't expect people to look up your terms, especially when these terms reference other terms in that same ideology, when you are attempting to make a point.

>>10862546
>you are more interested in the business itself rather than blind nepotism?
That's why in a market we do not follow blind nepotism, but in the proposed system the only way to keep it in the family is only to hire family.
We have an interest in keeping wealth in our family as wealth is part of fitness and influence.

>>10859441
> we would be speaking german now
Who we? Who we to?
You are alone here crazy.

>>10862298
Without a state, you will be conquered in a day. Without money, you will have people murdering each other over disagreements related to value of exchanged goods/services.

Reality doesn't care about your utopism. People are assholes. ESPECIALLY the poor people you fight for. The people at the bottom are actually worse scumbags than the people at the top.

>>10862659
You're pretty easily led, aren't you? Willing to forego thinking to buy into whatever memes and basement-tier concepts the internet provides?

How about you think for yourself?

>>10862628
Back.

>Yes. That's correct. You do not work as hard if you cannot pass it down to your children. Especially in a multicultural society like we have today.
What a shallow, short-sighted worldview.
>You also have to consider which is better for the nation, the forced redistribution of a formally stable company or the continued growth and productivity of the company.
Implying the two are in any way contradictory.
>You break down the ability for the owner to be a truly great manager by prohibiting him from grooming his replacement.
And this is impossible in a worker-owned company why?
>Now if that's not what you mean you are going to have to be more specific as to what you mean by the workers own the company and what gives the workers the right to that capital as opposed to any other involved party?
The workers have the right to the means of production as they use it, the extraction of surplus value is an unnecessary step for the operation of the company or industry itself. This used to be quite uncontroversial in terms of land use, even the grandfather of anglo liberalism Locke thought a man was only entitled to an amount of land they could plausibly farm, no more.
>Granted my answer would be slightly different in an ethno state where you could be reasonably assured that your efforts would be going to people who are actually your people by blood
So are you ideologically opposed to the concepts of common good and mutual aid? Do you view societies or 'races' as if they are locked in some kind of a permanent zero-sum conflict?
>but even then I'd rather be in control of my property. That's the whole point of property, to accumulate wealth and be self sufficient
Self-sufficency is not a value in itself, one strives to be self-sufficent to secure their livelihood and safety.
>Communism inherently is an attack on self sufficiency
So is capitalism, outside of subsistence farmers. Turns out division of labour is an efficent way of organising the economy.

>>10862642
>Wealth redistribution/construction and maintenance of the commons, public services, immigration and foreign policy.
And these are only possible to implement in societies divided along ethnic lines?

>>10862659
>"Not all x are like that" is not an argument.
It is definitely an argument. You claim that Jews are x, I contradict that statement by saying that there is at least 1 Jew who does not fit the criteria (which is trivially knowable), thus your statement is false.
>The fact is that largely it is true and it is true among those who wish to work in tribal unity.
I'm not saying there aren't plenty of supporters for Jewish exceptionalism among the Jews, I'm saying it is a retarded way of looking at the world. Funny how both far-right Jews and nazis think Jews are a special people.

>>10862711
I'm bad at dumbing down arguments, it is a fault of mine - but in a discussion about socialism I would expect all participants to have at least a cursory understanding of what they are actually talking about. How can you critique something you don't understand the first thing about?

>>10862726
>We have an interest in keeping wealth in our family as wealth is part of fitness and influence.
In the sort of society I'm advocating for the accumulation of wealth and posessions is meaningless, self-improvement and self-application are the things people strive for

>>10862966
>Without a state, you will be conquered in a day.
Generally communism is only thought to happen once there are no other states left to conquer the socialist state.
>Without money, you will have people murdering each other over disagreements related to value of exchanged goods/services.
Just like people are murdering each other right now for trivially attainable necessities like air.
>Reality doesn't care about your utopism. People are assholes.
People are self-interested, and in a capitalism being an asshole is in their self-interest.

>>10863710
Wow. Literally no argument. You're just saying human nature offends you.
I don't care if REALITY offends your moral sensibility you communist faggot. We build our systems to get the best out of what we've got. If we pretend the world is a rainbow unicorn land where all people are nice, we'll die.

They are. If a person knows that the company's success won't aid their genetic offspring then, for most people, the long term well-being of the company will be worthless. They'll find a way to abuse the clients and workers to bleed the thing dry while they've still got a hold of it. I don't care if that offends you, you communist faggot. It's how reality works.

You're one retarded communist faggot. Most people don't care about other people. Unless they're their family members or very close friends. This is human biology. This is reality.

And you can't predict what constitutes a surplus you fucking retard. Shit will happen. You need to prepare a surplus. Now, how much is too much? I don't know, and the government is too dumb to find out, but if you privatize a company and tie the company's profit to his ability to find out the sweet spot, the owner will get pretty close.
And you aren't entitled to as much as you can use. You're entitled to as much as you can earn.

STOP MISREPRESENTING HIM AS OPPOSED TO COMMON GOOD. HE'S BEING REALISTIC. PEOPLE ARE TRIBALISTIC. THIS IS BIOLOGY. THIS IS UNAVOIDABLE WE NEED A SYSTEM THAT MAKES THE BEST OUT OF BAD PEOPLE. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE.
YOU COMMUNIST FAGGOT.

>Self-sufficiency is not a value in itself
Communist faggot quote of the year 2017

> division of labour is an efficent way of organising the economy
are you retarded
every state that tried that DIED
or devolved into an oppressive totalitarian shithole
>in b4 muh not tru scotsman
fuck outta here commie fag
get in a heli and fuck off

Stop trying to murder us all.

>>10863786
>In the sort of society I'm advocating for the accumulation of wealth and posessions is meaningless
Then, for most people, work is meaningless.
>self-improvement and self-application are the things people strive for
You're talking about 0.0001% of the population. You're talking about attention starved bourgeoise ideologue pricks.
And they would quickly stop working too, as they would realize that eveyone else just resents and hates them for being better. Assuming the jealous masses wouldn't kill them for it first.

>>10863936
>You're just saying human nature offends you.
Define human nature.

>I don't care if REALITY offends your moral sensibility you communist faggot.
My political philosophy is entirely amoral, I have made absolutely zero moral arguments. The reference to 'shallow and short-sighted' is due to the fact that societies aren't zero-sum games, and treating them as such is moronic. The point of common good is that it is in the self-interest of all parties to benefit others - thus working for the common good aids the survival and thriving of both the self and one's offspring.

>We build our systems to get the best out of what we've got.
No, what you are doing is seeing the current situation and then believing that life and society was always thus, a constant instead of a variable. Historically ignorant slave mentality.

>They are. If a person knows that the company's success won't aid their genetic offspring then, for most people, the long term well-being of the company will be worthless.
But the benefit of the company will aid their offspring, along with everyone else. If it is the latter part you find unpalatable, why are you opposed to the welfare a wider group than just your genetic kin? Out of spite?

>You're one retarded communist faggot.
Now now, no need to get upset.

>Most people don't care about other people. Unless they're their family members or very close friends. This is human biology. This is reality.
Are you generalising your own sentiments to 'most people'?

>And you can't predict what constitutes a surplus you fucking retard.
I was referring to surplus value, that is, the part of value produced by a worker that gets taken by the owner of the means of production. Since the owner takes no part in actually producing the product, they are living off the labour of others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value
cont.

>>10864043
Oh my god, dude, You're rekting him.

>>10859247
the one that doesnt have a bunch of faggot commie larpers

>>10861524
yeah fighting for a bunch of kikes like a bunch of pleb slaves would be pretty stupid

lenin the literal 5'2 manlet jew lmao, Russians got conned so hard

>>10859441
oven yourself

>>10863936
>And you aren't entitled to as much as you can use. You're entitled to as much as you can earn.
Nobody is entitled to anything, this is a moral argument. I'm interested in the efficent use of resources. A child suffering from malnutrition that holds back their development while massive amounts of food are being wasted just around the corner is a waste of both food and human resources.

>PEOPLE ARE TRIBALISTIC.
Fine, then lets define the tribe as the totality of humanity.

>WE NEED A SYSTEM THAT MAKES THE BEST OUT OF BAD PEOPLE. BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE ARE.
Amusing how you are the perfect representation of the 'conservative' view of humanity: People are inherently evil, and only tradition, rules and other repressions of their true selves prevents them from murder, pillage and rape.
As opposed to the liberal view where humans are inherently good, always striving for greater things and heights, but chained down by repression and regression
As opposed to the socialist view where humans are the products of the societies they live in, and to which they react (material conditions)

>Self-sufficiency is not a value in itself
>Communist faggot quote of the year 2017
I take it that you disagree? Then please explain how self-sufficency is an intrinsic value and not an instrumental value - a means to attaining other values, in this case security and welfare

>every state that tried that DIED
I don't know what you think division of labour means, but its not that.
Division of labour is the cornerstone of civilisation, in fact there would be no states without division of labour. It's when farmers get more food than they can plausibly use, thus not everyone has to be a sustainance farmer. This is how the first cities and professions were born.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labour

>Stop trying to murder us all.
I'm just trying to help, friend.

>>10859281
i gotta admit that meme does give me hearty chuckles but you need to take your tongue out of Carl Marx's ring.

>>10860652
The ironic thing is that the guy that punched him pays women to take shits in his mouth. So yeah i think its time we created a master race.

>>10864043
That would take a while, but in context of this conversation: 1) refusal to work for the benefit of someone other than yourself or your family 2) refusal to work at all if living under communism where you'll get fed either way, and if you don't get fed because nobody else is making food either, then it's everyone else that needs to get to work, in the meantime, you'll just steal and cannibalize

Societies ARE zero-sum games. "Thriving" is relative. People have a biological imperative to acquire social status for themselves and their offspring. And social status is relative.
People don't want other people to thrive, that goes against male biological prerogative of acquiring monopoly on as many mates as possible, and female biological prerogative of acquiring monopoly on the best mates possible. People benefit if they keep competition from thriving, sometimes even from surviving. Society is a zero-sum game.
I know, shallow and short-sighted.

What I am seeing is the society that evolved into what it is. And things evolve to best survive their environment. That's kind of why communism keeps dying, it's an artificial system not suited to survive in it's environment: the real world.

They don't want to aid everyone else's offspring, they have a biological imperative to hinder it.
And I'm actually fairly left leaning, I don't personally care that much about tribalism. In an environment so densely populated by people that inbreeding is preposterously easy to avoid, my genetic code will be nigh undetectable after about 7 generations. And besides, I'm more into immortality through memetics than genetics.
But I'm a realist. And I know most people aren't like me. Most people are tribalistic. Most people on the left only act like bleeding hearts to virtue signal and further their social status. Most will follow their biological imperatives even if they're exposed to them.

Communism killed vast amounts of people every time it was tried. That's a reason to be upset.

>>10864192
>Fine, then lets define the tribe as the totality of humanity.
lol
you guys are fucking dumb

More Dancing Comrades!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTGlAcoPSdg

>>10864240
well that's what the b-tards fraction specializing in feces porn thought, but turns out it was a projection:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-dead-guy-4chan-blamed-for-punching-richard-spencer

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>>10864240
>>10864289
fukken told in 11 minutes or its free

>>10863978
>Then, for most people, work is meaningless.
Self-actualisation is meaningless for most people? Why do people pick up hobbies then?
When material needs can be taken care of consistently and securely, people will strive to be and to become, not to own and accumulate.
Anyway the point is to eliminate or minimise the socially necessary work - that is the work that needs to be done even if nobody wants to do it. And to answer the obvious counterargument - there are ways to incentivise such work within a socialist framework.

>You're talking about 0.0001% of the population. You're talking about attention starved bourgeoise ideologue pricks.
Nonsense, the bourgies just have the means and security to worry about such higher goals, since they don't have to live in persistent fear of death or poverty. I'd post an Oscar Wilde quote here about what happens when people are free from the demented spiral of accumulation, but it is in image form.

>>10864245
>People don't want other people to thrive, that goes against male biological prerogative of acquiring monopoly on as many mates as possible, and female biological prerogative of acquiring monopoly on the best mates possible. People benefit if they keep competition from thriving, sometimes even from surviving.
And yet men and women form communities of mutual benefit, great and small. Men don't kill each other in the streets and neither do women. Seems like the biological prerogative isn't such a strong force after all, or is at least a matter of negotiation.

>I know, shallow and short-sighted.
It is, because the best way to achieve the survival of one's genes if that is to be taken as the goal, is in an interconnected society, rather than an everyday struggle feed a family outside of society. "Human is a political animal" as Aristotle said.

>>10860824
Its people like you that sits on 5000+ nuclear bombs. There has already been over 4500 nuclear detonations we are all fucked while you are still talking shit about climbing a corporste ladder. Lol you dont understand that there will not be any corporates within 5 rs in usa. What are you going to do then you little money talker when there is no money to collect. Your whole country will destroy it self by selfish people with easy access to high tech weapons. You are talking about a corporate ladder so yeah i guess you are assuming that everone wants to climb the corporste öadder. There is more to this world then your corporate ladder even though your country is fucking up the entire world look at your leadership donald trump hahahahahahaha i eould like to see him choke on a gold bar. Your whole country is a joke and 90% of the population will die within the next 5 yrs mark my words.

>>10864245
cont.
>What I am seeing is the society that evolved into what it is. And things evolve to best survive their environment.
Marx would in a sense agree. Society 'evolves' to fit the material conditions in which it operates. This is the basis of historical materialism. Capitalism replaced Feudalism because the material conditions on which the society exists, changed.

>And besides, I'm more into immortality through memetics than genetics.
I agree, the survival of one's genes is incomparable to the survival of one's ideas.

>But I'm a realist. And I know most people aren't like me. Most people are tribalistic.
I'm not going to go into the veracity of that statement, but rather the implication that this is the only possible situation.
Conceptions of the fundamental nature of society, humanity, the world have changed vastly even in just a couple of hundred years, and this is just within the European world. One of the effects of capitalism is that it tears down the old identities and belief systems and traditional societies, and will keep on doing so until replaced by another system, a better one I hope.

>Communism killed vast amounts of people every time it was tried. That's a reason to be upset.
Something like 20 million people die every year from (easily) preventable causes, and yet they aren't counted to the bodycount of globalised capitalism. My own theory is that this is largely due to it being so easy to attribute blame to a single actor like the state, but structural ills are not so easy to pin down.

>>10864254
Well, the tribe has gone from a group of 10 into a village into a city into a region into a nation into a federation in the relatively near history of mankind. Why do you think this is the end of history, that the concept of 'tribe' (or in-group to be more general) is locked forever where it is at the moment?
Read 'Imagined Communities' by Benedict Anderson if you are interested in nationalism and identity.

>>10864306
>And yet men and women form communities of mutual benefit, great and small.
Humans are smart. They realize that sometimes, if they ally themselves with a competitor, they'll get more than double the mates they would normally get. They'll have to share with the competitor, but they still win.
And if you think that such behaviour would continue in a state where access to mates and resources is equally distributed... you'd be right. Men would make alliances, go against the government, and try to get a greater amount of mates and resources shared between their allies. Between their tribe.
That's exactly what we've seen happening in communist states. Look at what the police is doing in venezuela.
Again, social status is relative. People always try to bo on top of other people (hell, I think even your propaganda mentions that), even if they need to compromise and form a tribe. So long as there are at least two men in the world, there will be two tribes. This will never stop.
And the problem with communism, is that by trying to force people to be equal, the people are forced to take ever more drastic measures to become better.
In capitalism, most people will try to raise above others through hard work. Some will try to do that through crime, but they're the minority.
In communism, trying to raise above others is crime by definition. They have no choice but to steal and murder and swindle. So they WILL do that.
And yes, there's a very, very tiny minority of people who are at the top because their parents were rich, and it's unfair. But it's a fair price to pay, considering the alternative.
You never lived under communism. If you did, you'd run back to america and start worshipping these capitalists you hate, just for being the better alternative/

>>10855503
If everybody gets paid the same, what incentive is there to work hard or do a good job at all?

>>10860692
thats how it starts mate...

>>10860824
>"Then get rich by climbing any corporate ladder."
I bet you like ayn rand...

>>10859268
>back to times where there were you waited in line from 4 am in the morning in front of the shop to get hard bread, vodka, canned shit and maybe a doctor sausage, while depending on smuggling to get any decent food

>back to the time, where your jealous neighbor could've made up lie on you how as you cut pig head for your job, you yell "I cut Stalin's head" and this results of you and your family killed or deported to siberia for slave labor, praying to for painless death, to freeze while sleeping, because of inability to mentally and physically to handle all the backbreaking labor and treatment of you like total shit.

>back to the time where your thoughs and ideas could've made you dead, and you had to constantly watch what you say, be scared of KGB

>back to the time where clubs were not allowed, and most of social gathering had to be approved by the state.

yeah, the people who lived great were ruling class, who wants communism is either a brainwashed idiot, suicidal masochist or challenged

>itt ex ussr citizen livin in Lithuania

>>10861645
>When you unwashed commie fucks whine about "the 1%", what you fail to mention is that 80% of that number is... you guessed it, Jewish

Even if that were true, the jewish bourgousie is bad because its the bourgousie, not because its jewish...

>>10864427
>They'll have to share with the competitor, but they still win.
And why can't this be taken to it's logical conclusion?

>Look at what the police is doing in venezuela
Just to be clear, Venezuela is not a socialist state, but a petrodollar-fuelled social democracy, like a shitty Norway.

>In communism, trying to raise above others is crime by definition. They have no choice but to steal and murder and swindle. So they WILL do that.
Nonsense. In a socialist state, rising above one's peers simply doesn't allow them to exploit and abuse the ones they tower over. Even in the Soviet Union people would strive for personal glory as cosmonauts or other great men and women.
Enforced equality is not the key, but equal opportunity. Everyone is able to be the best they can without being cut down by poverty and mistreatment, that is the goal.

>You never lived under communism. If you did, you'd run back to america and start worshipping these capitalists you hate, just for being the better alternative
I have no illusions about The Soviet Union and other 'real-existing socialisms'. They certainly weren't worker's paradises they were supposed to be, but it is a lofty and difficult-to-achieve goal. I don't want to bring the Soviet Union back, but we can learn from their failures and mistakes.
And it's not that I hate capitalists(with a number of exceptions), they just work in their own self-interest just like everyone else.

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>>10862277
?
all the corporations need is cheap low skilled labour while they work on realizing their dream of a completely mechanized robotic workforce which will remove the majority of jobs from people. it's already happening

>>10859242
he's a fucking fascist

>>10855503
I live in a post-communist European country, I was born shortly after the regime fell.
Let's just say that as a child I was hungry more times than I can remember... or more times that my parents would like to admit.

It would be at least a nice country in terms of a little industrialization, right? Wrong. Horrendous concrete blocks are scarring the landscape in every city, in every town. The flats in them are very small (400 square feet = a big one, try to fit a family with three kids there) and your neighbours can hear every little detail of your life. That includes conversations, watching TV, having sex, pooping etc.. The blocks might be going unstable in a couple of years, millions of people may be in danger. At least the local communities started painting them in bright colors, so that they don't give clinical depression to half of the population.

It's very easy to support communism when it has never really touched your life. It just doesn't work, get over it already.

>>10861106
>Suicide the nation
>Would have steam rolled all of Europe and only had the US to deal with after taking out England, eventually leading to another cold war where Russia would have eventually won

>>10859242
Listening to this guy is fucking AIDS but he's still pretty cool.
>>10865142
Every white male that isn't a cuckold is a fuckin fascist these days, it seems.

>>10859281
elemayoh komrade, now post the one about the muslims
or does the sandy dick taste too good?

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The White Race prevails and will again conquer the world. 14/88

>>10862421

Hell march 2 is better imo

>>10861625
>When civilization reaches the state where human labour is completely redundant, we will probably switch to communism.
Keep dreaming. I honestly don't want o imagine a future where value of human labour hits the floor and only maybie the very inteligent few can produce the means of the production beacuse that will be the only thing what society needs ,and you will stilll have the 90% of the population who can't produce shit beacuse automization is so advenced and so wide spread that their labour will be unwanted.
What will happen to those who consume more than produce less? Mas welfare to the 90% from the 10%? I don't think so. This is why I hate automatiation. The fact that we try to adapt to this artifical capitalistic enviroment will be a dead end. Beacuse it's selects anti social behavior. The spirit of te old communities are almost completly lost. Where the people can keep thos individuals down that are threat to the community. My point is that humanis are not made for the enviroment what they created.

>>10855503
No olive-drab Che shit, social realism in art or glorification of the working man this time around. Cuban cigars are just as nasty as any other, those old films are so depressing and work sucks; the people want to do lines, not wait in them. ROBOT OVERLORDS OF ALL SECTORS, UNITE!!!

>FALGSC

>>10861225
>he doesn't think that useless alcoholics and layabouts were rewarded by the Soviet system, especially if they kissed the right commisar's ass.

>>10861625
why do people talk about automation like it's a force of nature?

just don't install the fucking machine you idiots, we have complete control over this situation.

>>10867657
Yes, why live in a utopia where labour is delegated to machines and all men are truly free because there's some unfortunate steps inbetween.

>>10861164
Why did the Americans have to ruin this great, English school of thought?

>>10860504
Internet fucking explorer

>>10860652
>attacking people with different opinion because they are peacefully speaking in the street
such philosophy!

This thread is still alive...

Listen here you bunch of cosmically retarded westerner communist cunts.

State is an organization with a monopoly on the use of violence in a certain area. Since everything you morons want to do requires constant application of violence THERE WILL NEVER BE stateless communism.

Need further clarifications, you prokaryot-brain imbeciles? Fine.

Let's say you'd like to abolish money, since you're the only kind of people idiotic enough to actually try that. Great, now you either have barter trade (wow, how progressive), or people getting food by tickets issued by some cenralized bureaucratic organ. In which case people would start using tickets as money, some of them will become poor, some of them rich, and you have to police them 24/7 to prevent that.

If there was even the tiniest bit of forward-planning in your little cult of a XIX cent Jew, who could not figure out the correct mechanism behind the creation of prices.

IF THERE WAS ANYTHING else in it besided your asinine anti-morality, by which you purposefully seek reasons to reject your family, society, culture, history, tradition.

If you were not luddite biology-deniers who pay no mind to the social structures and moral instincts THAT HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED to thrive in over millions of years.

Then you would realize that all your ideas end in colossal failure, incredible loss of life, and EVERYONE being worse off FOREVER which is as long as your communist utopia is supposed to last.

>>10862028
Wrong. The sociopath is the one who is unable to see the PLETHORA of wellness and sustainability brought into our world by the genius of the capitalist system. What you refuse to accept is while some may face the burden of the capitalist system, the MAJORITY of people living in this system have vastly superior living conditions compared to any other generation of human being who has ever lived on this planet. And those who are burdened by the system still have the opportunity to rise up from the adversity they face if they could just stay away from the fucking crack pipe. The fact of the matter is EVERY country which has EVER had ANY communist ideologue embedded into their government has turned into a complete and utter totalitarian shithole. China, USSR, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba and North Korea are prime examples of this. China's estimated death toll due to the maoist revolution is approx. 100 million people JUST TO PERPETUATE IDEOLOGY. These people were not rapists, murderers, criminals, thugs, gangbangers or drug dealers. They were (for the most part) regular human beings who simply disagreed with the dogmatic socialist ideology being shoved down their throats by the bureaucrats. For reference the death toll of WWII is approximated at 80 million. And one country, ONE FUCKING COUNTRY was responsible for the deaths of over 100 million. You still have to consider the tens of millions who died due to the dogmatic socialist beliefs in the USSR, not to mention the khmer rouge in Cambodia who committed genocide against their own countrymen, forcing them into fields and working them until they died just to perpetuate socialist equality.

>>10862028
>>10873015
The fact that you can even put your head in the sand and act as if these don't outright discredit the socialist system as a reprehensible and fundamentally malevolent ideology responsible for the suffering of hundreds of millions of people really says something about your feeble mind.
Just be aware that when the suffering you wish to inflict upon the world comes into fruition, you will be longing for the sweet slumber of death as that will be the only way to escape the perpetual suffering you have created.

>>10872818
>Listen here you bunch of cosmically retarded westerner communist cunts.
Again, no need to get upset.

>Since everything you morons want to do requires constant application of violence THERE WILL NEVER BE stateless communism.
Statement but no arguments supporting it. In a state of material abundance, trivially reachable on today's technological and productive levels for basic and itermediate goods, there is no need for violent competition for goods.

>Let's say you'd like to abolish money, since you're the only kind of people idiotic enough to actually try that. Great, now you either have barter trade (wow, how progressive), or people getting food by tickets issued by some cenralized bureaucratic organ. In which case people would start using tickets as money, some of them will become poor, some of them rich, and you have to police them 24/7 to prevent that.
There are multiple alternative systems to money. A classical formulation would be to distribute consumer goods by 'labour vouchers' one gets for working (in the modern day it would physically be in the form of a credit or debit card). Your 'tickets-become-money' does not apply, since the labour vouchers would be non-transferable(personal), would expire upon use, and after a certain time. Accumulation is impossible and pointless. They would also be only transferable for consumer goods, not the means of production, you can buy a computer but not a factory with labour vouchers. The labour voucher is a tool of accounting rather than an object or measure of value.
Again, read 'Towards a New Socialism' by Cockshott and Cottrell if you want to learn about a potential practical formulation of a moneyless, planned economy.

>IF THERE WAS ANYTHING else in it besided your asinine anti-morality
An effective, non-wasteful economy is what I'm after, not some idealistic waffle.

cont.

>>10861440
this is what makes me hate religion. especially islam, they believe everyone non muslim is just there to serve them.
this is why those subhumans rape ands kill whomstever they like

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>>10861774

>>10872818
>by which you purposefully seek reasons to reject your family, society, culture, history, tradition.
If you 'defenders of tradition' would look at history very carefully, you'd see that it is precisely the power of capital that erodes tradition. Look at how the family unit was changed by industrialisation and mass wage labour, extended family units became isolated nuclear families. Society is formed by the material conditions it exists in, when the material conditions and relations of labour change the society changes with it. Culturally, the emergence of the mass society has killed off or marginalised many of the traditional arts you claim to defend. Classical music and painting has been replaced by summer hits and comic books and advertising. Ironically Theodor Adorno from the 'cultural marxist' bogeyman Frankfurt School wrote books in defence of 'traditional' culture against the corrosive, commercialising powers of capital. It is cultural capitalism that is eradicating the old ways, not some communist secret society.

>If you were not luddite biology-deniers who pay no mind to the social structures and moral instincts THAT HUMANS HAVE EVOLVED to thrive in over millions of years.
Social structures that vastly changed in the industrial era, and before that when the first agrarian cultures formed, and then again when feudalism thrived. As you well know, the timeframe in these changes is not relevant in an evolutionary sense. This argument relies on you again taking the current, extant system as the natural and permanent state, which it quite clearly isn't. Unless you are advocating for a return to hunter-gatherer societies, the 'people have evolved to a society' argument is meaningless.

>>10873015
>The sociopath is the one who is unable to see the PLETHORA of wellness and sustainability brought into our world by the genius of the capitalist system
Of course capitalism brings great wealth, progress and improvement. Marx for example agrees with you.
cont.

>>10873015
>What you refuse to accept is while some may face the burden of the capitalist system, the MAJORITY of people living in this system have vastly superior living conditions compared to any other generation of human being who has ever lived on this planet.
And the change from outright slave societies to serfdom improved the lives of the serfs, but these days we woudn't call the serfs particularly fortunate - as I predict people will think of the wage slave societies of today in a couple of hundred years.

>And those who are burdened by the system still have the opportunity to rise up from the adversity they face if they could just stay away from the fucking crack pipe.
The malnourished kid with stunted development does not have this opportunity. The sweat-shop worker in Bangladesh does not have this opportunity. Poor kids who get a bad education because of chronic underinvestment are obviously at a disadvantage compared to their wealthier, better located peer, no? Meritocracy does not exist in capitalism. One can only make an argument such as this from a position of ignorance or callousness.
I, and anyone with the ability to think structurally objects to this suffering and waste of resources, even if they aren't constantly confronted with it. So are you wilfully ignorant or callous? Who is the sociopath again?

>China, USSR, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba and North Korea are prime examples of this.
I won't spend much time on this, since I'm not advocating for the systems of any of these countries, but let me just distrupt the narrative a little.
Under Mao, the Chinese life expectancy shot up, even during the great famines.
The USSR turned from a semi-feudalist backwater into an industrial and technological superpower in 40 years.
Vietnam was in a state of constant warfare from 40s to 80s, including the massive bombing of their whole industrial base, and the South Vietnamese alternative was worse, read up on the Diem regime.
cont.

>>10873028
>>10873078
>>10873145
>A classical formulation would be to distribute consumer goods by 'labour vouchers' one gets for working (in the modern day it would physically be in the form of a credit or debit card).
Who determines the worth of a labour voucher? Who determines the price of the goods which such a mechanism would be able to purchase? Who provides the goods to purchase? Who provides regulation into the factory which produces? How do you deal with the people who've already accumulated wealth in the previous monetary system? Who regulates that process?
What you fail to mention is the only body with enough authoritative control to make all these happen is the government. To blindly believe that such an entity would be benevolent enough as to eliminate any loose ends or loopholes and remain ideologically consistent is absolutely absurd and nothing more than a fairy tale. You may be well versed in economics but you are immeasurably idiotic when it comes to understanding the fundamental interplay between bureaucracy and the economy. History has shown us that when you give complete and utter control over the economy to the government (which is inevitably going to happen with such an ideological system as yours) those systems become susceptible to malevolent administrators becoming totalitarian entities which seek to perpetuate unfiltered, dogmatic ideology in the face of death. THIS IS WHAT THE PAST 2 WORLD WARS WERE ABOUT. I don't give a flying fuck how much "waste" we can reduce, or how we can give everyone a "chance at equality", or any other mindless propaganda you spout. You CANNOT allow bureaucracy and economy to combine.

>>10864525
You are an idiot, hes talking about the october revolution, not stalins regime.

>>10873015
Khmer Rouge was a CIA-backed organisation, and even if it wasn't I have no appetite to defend their retarded agrarianism.
Cuba is the only country in the high HDI-group that is environmentally sustainable at current levels.
North Korea was far more advanced and better off than South Korea until at least the 70s, despite an American bombing campaign that wiped out over 50% of 30 out of their 32 cities. Including the bombing of vast dams very late in the war. North Korea abandoned socialism in favour of Juche decades ago, and these days it's much closer to the /pol/ ideal than that of any socialist, what with their anti-degeneracy moralism, fierce ethno-nationalism, militarism (songun), leader worship, autarky and so on.

>>10873015
>China's estimated death toll due to the maoist revolution is approx. 100 million people
I'm not going to play the numbers' game, as I'll get the black book of suppressed potential births cited at me, but again, under global capitalism, 20 million die of (easily) preventable causes every year. Yet that isn't an argument against the system itself.

>>10873025
>The fact that you can even put your head in the sand and act as if these don't outright discredit the socialist system as a reprehensible and fundamentally malevolent ideology responsible for the suffering of hundreds of millions of people really says something about your feeble mind.
Head in the sand really is an apt phrase to describe those ignorant or callous people who cannot comprehend or mind the things happening beyond their immediate surroundings. Things outside your perception do exist.

>>10873145
>And the change from outright slave societies to serfdom improved the lives of the serfs, but these days we woudn't call the serfs particularly fortunate - as I predict people will think of the wage slave societies of today in a couple of hundred years.
What you fail to realize is that WE'RE NOT SERFS. People today are hundreds of times more free to do as they please than any serf was because they had NOTHING. You can go to the bank, get a loan, go to school, start a business, provide a service, yet you seem to equate your economic revolution to freeing the serfs. Absolutely pathetic. If you can't make a living in western society you deserve to crumble under its weight.

>The malnourished kid with stunted development does not have this opportunity. The sweat-shop worker in Bangladesh does not have this opportunity. Poor kids who get a bad education because of chronic underinvestment are obviously at a disadvantage compared to their wealthier, better located peer, no?
Too bad. Life sucks sometimes. If you can't make the best of your scenario then I guess you just aren't equipped to propagate your DNA. That's how every other living organism on the face of the earth has ever dealt with it. It's an unfortunate circumstance for those affected with such adversity, but ultimately it is not my problem, nor my country's problem.
>Under Mao, the Chinese life expectancy shot up, even during the great famines.
The USSR turned from a semi-feudalist backwater into an industrial and technological superpower in 40 years. etc...
So systematic oppression and censorship of facts and logic justifies the unwarranted slaughtering of millions just to accelerate the pace of industrialization? Because that is the bread and butter of the socialist system.

It's obvious you are so utterly infatuated and inundated with your ideological system that you are unable to see its utterly abhorrent faults. When called out, you simply redirect the conversation. Disgusting.

>>10873155
That's quite a few questions, but I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. I'll answer by referring to the Cockshott/Cottrell book again, my own formulations aren't really complete as a system yet.
>Who determines the worth of a labour voucher?
The time spent working by the worker, potentially modified by quality/intensity of work and possibly the 'social necessity' of the work.
>Who determines the price of the goods which such a mechanism would be able to purchase?
The total labour time spent on producing the goods. The calculation for this is a bit complex, as there is accumulated labour from the primary production to the development to the refining of a good etc. but it is perfectly doable, and more so as computers advance.
>Who provides the goods to purchase?
The people who work, just like it has always been.
>Who provides regulation into the factory which produces?
A withdrawable foreman elected by the workers of the factory or a wider community.
>How do you deal with the people who've already accumulated wealth in the previous monetary system?
Appropriate the means of production, but offer the factory owners/managers, CEOs and so on their old job back for a transitionary period. Personally I'd go further and appropriate excessive personal property as well, one man does not need 5 houses and 20 cars.
>Who regulates that process?
A socialist state.

>To blindly believe that such an entity would be benevolent
It's not a matter of benevolence but self-interest.

>History has shown us that when you give complete and utter control over the economy to the government
>You CANNOT allow bureaucracy and economy to combine.
Except war economies, and state 'guided' economies of Northern European countries like Sweden or Norway, Singapore, postwar Japan and late 70s, 80s South Korea?

>THIS IS WHAT THE PAST 2 WORLD WARS WERE ABOUT.
Elaborate.

>>10873201
>What you fail to realize is that WE'RE NOT SERFS. People today are hundreds of times more free to do as they please than any serf was because they had NOTHING.
Indeed, and serfs were a hundred times freer than outright slaves. By your logic they should just be happy with their lot, as 'at least they aren't slaves'.

>You can go to the bank, get a loan, go to school, start a business,
You can get a loan if you already have wealth by which to back it up with, ie. are already well-to-do
You can go to school if you can afford it
You can start a business if you have the starting capital
and so on.

>So systematic oppression and censorship of facts and logic justifies the unwarranted slaughtering of millions just to accelerate the pace of industrialization?
For the 5th time in this thread, I'm not advocating for the return of Soviet Union, but your argument is silly. Millions died prematurely in Victorian Britain to accelerate industrialisation, and yet that isn't a fault of capitalism? Or perhaps it doesn't count because it was over a longer time period?

>Too bad. Life sucks sometimes.
>It's an unfortunate circumstance for those affected with such adversity, but ultimately it is not my problem, nor my country's problem.
>If you can't make a living in western society you deserve to crumble under its weight.
>It's obvious you are so utterly infatuated and inundated with your ideological system that you are unable to see its utterly abhorrent faults.
How on earth can you hold these opinions simultaneously without your mind exploding and your belief system collapsing from the internal contradiction?

>When called out, you simply redirect the conversation.
Redirect, as in point out the positive sides of the states aformentioned, not just parrot contextless, sourceless death tolls? Or what exactly do you mean?

It's already prevailing. The amount of unironic communist cancer I've seen from friends over in the west is staggering and about as shocking as being hit by a train.
t. eastern european fag

>>10873183
Way to completely and utterly misrepresent nearly every single piece of information I provided. The fact of the matter is you are trying your very hardest to skirt around the fact that an economic system fundamentally embedded within bureaucratic control is a complete and utter catastrophe waiting to happen, and every single corner of history where this was the case has demonstrated this. Your story is none different, shrouded is anticipation of the next societal revolution which will free the people of the world from the shackles of corporate entities and slavery! While you disregard the fact that this is probably the best society is ever going to get while still maintaining individuality, compassion, creativity, law and order.
You are truly brainwashed. If you don't kill yourself, I truly hope someone will, because you are a cancerous abscess in the vein of a dying democracy. It is truly disgusting to think that there is another human being out there who has enough time to waste on attempting to ideologically subvert someone on a public forum as reprehensible as this. I wanted to see if there was something substantive behind your arguments, but unfortunately it is nothing more than socialist dogshit ideology unmasking itself.

>>10873262
>Way to completely and utterly misrepresent nearly every single piece of information I provided.
So which one are you again, and what information did I misrepresent?

>an economic system fundamentally embedded within bureaucratic control is a complete and utter catastrophe waiting to happen, and every single corner of history where this was the case has demonstrated this.
Bureaucracy is a part of all economic systems today, except primitive barter economies. You have agencies that regulate production and products and so on. Not to mention the bureaucratic mixed economies of Europe like Germany.
Do point out some concrete examples of such historical cases, though.

>While you disregard the fact that this is probably the best society is ever going to get while still maintaining individuality, compassion, creativity, law and order.
End of history, huh. For your interest not even Fukuyama is a Fukuyamaist anymore.
The idea that things have got better in the past but have now reached the apex is slave mentality. Emancipate yourself.

>You are truly brainwashed. If you don't kill yourself, I truly hope someone will, because you are a cancerous abscess in the vein of a dying democracy. It is truly disgusting to think that there is another human being out there who has enough time to waste on attempting to ideologically subvert someone on a public forum as reprehensible as this.
Why are you so upset over an exchange of ideas on a forum? Isn't that one of the cornerstones of liberal ideology?

>I wanted to see if there was something substantive behind your arguments, but unfortunately it is nothing more than socialist dogshit ideology unmasking itself.
What kinds of arguments do you find acceptable?

>>10873258
Neoliberalism has failed, economic nationalism is cannibalistic and juvenile, of course people are going to look for alternatives.

>>10873287
You haven't seen failed until you get a taste Marx's gift that keeps on giving. I'm not sure what person you are, autistic, deranged, normal, abnormal, hopeful that you will be part of the ruling caste elite, or maybe you just hate others and wish to see their suffering even if you yourself have to share it, it really doesn't matter at all. Just keep in mind that pushing that poison for humanity is likely the most evil thing a man can do.

>>10873309
Cool story bro. Posturing has no effect on me. Argue rationally or stay silent and try to learn.

>>10861099
this is how we know americans are fat, that's walking

>>10855503

Communism is the only thing that can save the West from its current decline into empty materialism.
The West is in the process of committing slow suicide because its people have become so disillusioned by vacuousness of consumerism.
Communism is the solution.

>>10873335
>we got problems
>the solution is to starve everyone lol XDD che4life <3
Vaccines were a mistake.

>>10855503
By definition, communism can't work. No room for aspiration, no standards.

>>10866911
song is two feet - go fuck your self

>>10857700
>actually getting upset at bants
Newfag.

>>10860824
this is what capitalists actually believe

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Lol did you guys have to move to gif because pol kept shitting on you?

>>10857245
Right people must be gays. Better cuckness than guys, cuz uncle Stalin knows what to do with gays.

>>10857569
Not the system was retarded, the managers of the system, those who didn't gave the power to the working class.

>>10862297
every standard, dont know if you've been to chile, but even tho they are prosperous and profit from a remedial economic relationship with the usa (which only happened because the usa was feeling guilt about fucking up the whole country), every time i've been there ive seen protests, specially daily minor protest and interventions by young adults because theres no public universities

>>10875152
>"The economy was fucked by EVERY standard"
>says outright that they're prosperous
Are you just straight-up retarded? Young people protesting for more gibsmedats is a policy issue, not an economic one.

>>10861005
Crazy, it's almost like our system is designed to turn workers against each other. You live in a world where's there's massive, constant pressure to view your fellow man as a competitor instead of as an ally or a comrade.

Violence has been done to you and you're trying to displace that violence onto the wrong people.

>>10855563
Underrated as fuck desu

>>10861370
"Of all possible slurs, cuck is pretty much unique in that the only person it ever really diminishes is the person saying it."

>>10862028
Bravo comrade, well said

>>10863936
>This is human biology. This is reality.
What a miserable, bleak worldview. Jesus. You believe this so fundamentally that you don't bother looking for evidence to support the claim, which is fortunate because there's no fucking evidence that that's the case. Un-spook yourself.

>>10873287
What books would you recommend? Preferably stuff that's not too dense, I had a lot of trouble with Gramsci.

>>10855563
Holy shit. I'm wheezing.

>>10857507
Second that anon.

Looks different. Similar clothes and shit, but the chick looks like she's wearing leggings and a stretch top. The corpse is in jeans and a t-shirt.

I call shenanigans.

>>10859268
>not posting superior fuhrer version
fucking commies seizing the memes of production

>>10861171
That's the start of "Judgement at Nuremburg".

Great film.

>>10859268
Commie faggot, die in a fire fuckface

>>10860692
USSR=Faggot/jew tier uniforms
Nazi uniforms were 10 times cooler

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>>10875396
I'm not actually that well-read on theory, (political) history is more my area of expertise.
But recently I've read 'Capitalist Realism' by Mark Fisher and 'Towards a New Socialism' by Cockshott/Cottrell which I've been shilling all over this thread - both were very good reads, not too complex and inspiring in many ways.

If you want a more comprehensive reading list visit /leftypol/ on another imageboard.

>>10862199
Anon will learn not to wander into low bait /pol/ threads like this soon enough.

Soon they'll be skimming the webm thumbnails looking for god-tier porn like the rest of us.

Have a little faith, friend. It'll work itself out.

>>10875133
>if i was in charge, i would have ushered in the utopia

Sort yourself out.

>>10866911
who tf makes/enjoys these cringey vides of ww2 footage with shitty music

I would be pretty fucking pissed if I was someone in ww2 and new that some fucking nu-male was going to make this shity 90 years later

>>10860824
That's some next level bootlicking

>>10857507
Well even if the pics are of different people the second still got railed.

>>10873335
>Communism is the solution.
no
t.slav

>>10875970
I will, thanks

>>10855503
I know you're a troll, but not one form of communism has ever succeeded, ALL have failed, the ONLY way is Capitalism, Capitalism unlike communism has fed more people on Planet earth then ALL other forms of government in in history COMBINED!!! This is a searchable FACT!

>>10877040
There are extant communist states right now, and they're doing fine.

I think the worst thing about capitalism is its support of nepotism and inheritance. I'm fine with richboyos earning their pay, and maybe even staying at the top all their lives, but problems occur when they pass their money and businesses down to the people they know. Donald Trump, for example, did not really earn all his businesses. The majority of his successes were hand-me-downs from his father. He's only maintained what his dad built, and it's only going to continue like that. Trump is going to hand his businesses down to his son, and the Trump family is going to stay in the 1%. I think it would be best if each individual went through their own paths in life, started at the same place, and once they die, the money is redistributed evenly.

It's a very unlikely, maybe impossible, system to make, but I think it's one of the best ways for capitalism to work.

I'm is support for a mixed economy btw. Neither pro-capitalist, communist or socialist.

>>10860824
>"Then get rich by climbing any corporate ladder."

Explain why Kim Kardashian or Cash Me Outside girl is worth millions of dollars?

>"Or you fucked around and didn't try in school."
Education doesn't always give you the jobs you want and it really doesn't benefit those who can't afford it.

>Plus, it's literal theft. Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor isn't a holy deed of man, it's a crime.

You're cool with over 600 Billion dollars of our taxes go to the Military, Corporations putting labor over seas and Private prisons, The %1 owning 99% of the populations wealth, but paying taxes for health care, roads, schools, and Rehabs is bad?

Yeah, okay.

>>10876220
>even if the pics are of different people the second still got railed
the second person doesn't even resemble a black person, that webm is fake news, it was just made as an excuse to make fun of blacks.

I'm going to add that webm to my "bullshit concocted on 4chan folder" for future reference.

>>10873224
>The time spent working by the worker, potentially modified by quality/intensity of work and possibly the 'social necessity' of the work.
How exactly you or any socialist comitee will can calculate all this? how it is possible to calculate the labour time devoted to the production of each of millions of products? and how can be decide either social necessity or purposefulness of any object or product?

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:^)

Communism is retarded. Unless you're retarded yourself, you grow out of ever thinking it's a decent ideology by the time you're 25.

>>10877298
>I think the worst thing about capitalism is its support of nepotism and inheritance.

Of course you do you anti-human, anti-family prick.

>>10860504
she's a literal slut fuck off

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>>10878441
>how it is possible to calculate the labour time devoted to the production of each of millions of products?
To simplify, you divide the amount of good x produced by the amount of total hours worked to produce the product. For example, say a workshop produces 20 artisan clocks a day, and has 10 workers including adminstration and cleaning. So we divide the hours worked by the workers by the amount of clocks produced to find out the labour cost of a clock. Say the workers work for an average of 6 hours per person (autistic Hans is only interested in clockmaking, and thus works 10 hours a day, but Dominic wants to play football instead and works for 4 hours only, both get compensated accordingly).
Then we get (10*6)/20 = 3 hours per clock. Now we need to add the amount of hours spent to build the workshop and the tools used by the workshop (the means of production), as well as the amount of hours spent to produce the raw materials the clocks are built of - on average per product.

>how can be decide either social necessity or purposefulness of any object or product?
For quantitative necessities this is easy: nourishment, accommodation, connectivity, clothing etc. everyone needs them.
For qualitative goods and values it is a bit more complicated: good food & fancy clothes etc. are usually more expensive to produce in terms of resources, and people value different things.
Cockshott's solution is to create a dynamically priced pseudo-market; a product's price starts at its real labour cost, and goes up or down based on the amount of stock left, more stock - price goes down and vice versa. Things in demand get more productive resources dedicated to them, things not in demand get less. This produces efficency via economies of scale, as highly popular goods become cheaper by unit price to produce.

This is how Cockshott formulated his economy, for a more complete explanation read the book, it's available for free online. My own solution would be a bit different.

>>10877298
trump grew what is dad gave him to billions from millions.

>>10877092
no they aren't north korea and venezuela have massive fucking problems. Free market countries are vastly superior to them.

>>10879367
>To simplify, you divide the amount of good x produced by the amount of total hours worked to produce the product.
As you said, labour-time can be measured in hours, but it is far from clear, unless one asssumes the existence of money, how other elements of cost can be computed and added to a sum of labour-time? how to value skilled and specialised labour like doctors, teachers and so on? If a citizens are displeased with the outcome, how are they to argue their case, by reference to what criteria? You and other marxist tend to over simplify this problem of economic calculation. by example a single product is often the work of all of society and not only a group of labourers who have made it. Their work involves very of the work of others, to provide tools, materials and mean combined within a highly complex organisation, Most are made by workers who also produce simultaneously a great variety of products, so that their contribution to each product cannot be precisely determined not even with complex computational systems or omniscient comitees. Every try to central coordinate all this can easyly produce a over burocratic cluster fuck.

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Reminder that commugrills were capable independent comrades and not just breeding vats for degenerate mutes ))))))

>>10875107
why do i masturbate to this

To all of the capitalist fascists:

CAPITALISM IS NIHILISM, CAPITALISM IS DEGENERACY

You see western civilization collapsing since they Renaissance; what formed since then? Fucking capitalism! Alt-right is literally just 'capitalism can work if it's all white people'. Maybe mass immigration and replacement, alienation, destruction of the family, etc are endemic to capitalism itself. And unfortunately, fascism would just turn back into degenerate capitalism eventually.

If human nature is solid, then without the machinations of capital to corrupt it, we would be more true to it. Without work tearing families apart, women would stay home and bear children, for example.

Trump is just another fucking capitalist, that's why he failed to do what you wanted.

>>10879944
Communism is more christian than capitalism. Communists are medievalists. You know this world is wrong, BUT THERE'S NO GOING BACK

>>10860504
Who's she?

>>10879944
Is this satire?

>>10871444
You're right, he should have shot him instead.

>>10880046
not an argument.

>>10879961
Tila Tequila

>>10855503
I remember when I was 14

>>10879802
win

>>10855563
best laugh i had in a while

>>10879763
>how to value skilled and specialised labour like doctors, teachers and so on?
By adding an average of labour hours spent on education, both the actual teaching and overhead. In terms of compensation for skilled labour, Cockshott says that society providing sustainance during the studies is compensation enough and skilled labour should be compensated equally to unskilled labour.

>If a citizens are displeased with the outcome, how are they to argue their case, by reference to what criteria?
Displeased by what outcome? Cockshott's model is dependent on an extremely high level of devolved direct democracy, providing many outlets for voicing discontent.

>by example a single product is often the work of all of society and not only a group of labourers who have made it. Their work involves very of the work of others, to provide tools, materials and mean combined within a highly complex organisation
I did refer to this as well in brief in the post you responded to:
"Now we need to add the amount of hours spent to build the workshop and the tools used by the workshop (the means of production), as well as the amount of hours spent to produce the raw materials the clocks are built of - on average per product."
Cockshott's book proposes to use input-output tables and algorithmics to calculate the total expenditures and products of the economy - it was calculable within a reasonable timeframe with year 1992 cluster computing.

>Most are made by workers who also produce simultaneously a great variety of products, so that their contribution to each product cannot be precisely determined
It doesn't need to be a 100% accurate calculation, labour hours are more a method of accounting rather than a real, tangible value. The real value of a product comes from its use.

Good questions. For more complete answers refer to the book, it even has formulas and algorithms for calculation if you're into that.

>>10881015
>Cockshott's book proposes to use input-output tables and algorithmics to calculate the total expenditures and products of the economy - it was calculable within a reasonable timeframe with year 1992 cluster computing.
The fact the computers can made complex economic calculations is not my preocupation, it's the scale of all this data collection (i don´t like privacy invasion), besides this system require a constant actualization of information about the production of millions of products with thier respective variations and the "good faith" of the managers (or the workers) who control the system. Also labour-time calculations seems don´t care about subjetive value of the consumers and the eficiency of producers, there are many examples of this, two machines, for instance, could require the same effort to produce, but if one is more productive, more convenient and secure to work at by the workers, than the other, then from every conceivable practical standpoint it is worth more. Two tons of fuel, requiring the same labour-time inputs to extract, can differ in calorific value, and therefore in worth. A good looking dress, car, bike can require the same labour input as an ugly one.

>>10881405
> it's the scale of all this data collection (i don´t like privacy invasion)
That's nice but you're still included in all marketing data collection at the moment.

>besides this system require a constant actualization of information about the production of millions of products with thier respective variations
Doable with modern information technology.

>"good faith" of the managers (or the workers) who control the system
This applies to any and all accounting.

>Also labour-time calculations seems don´t care about subjetive value of the consumers
>A good looking dress, car, bike can require the same labour input as an ugly one.
"a product's price starts at its real labour cost, and goes up or down based on the amount of stock left, more stock - price goes down and vice versa. Things in demand get more productive resources dedicated to them, things not in demand get less." from >>10879367
If a nice dress has the same labour cost as an ugly dress, it can be said to have a subjective use value surplus since it's production takes less resources than it is valued by users.

>two machines, for instance, could require the same effort to produce, but if one is more productive, more convenient and secure to work at by the workers
If a machine is more productive than another, it means there is a tangible labour-time saving per good produced by that machine, this is straighforward to quantify.
Expressing convenience and safety in monetary form is difficult in a capitalist economy too. It's not like a planned economy needs to be completely automated - subjective, collective decisionmaking would figure in.

>Two tons of fuel, requiring the same labour-time inputs to extract, can differ in calorific value, and therefore in worth.
Again, labour time is more a tool of accounting than actual value. In cases of easily quantifiable values such as this the choice is trivial, though environmental impact etc. needs to be considered as well.

>>10862207
at least they aren't Illinois Nazis.

>>10881631
>>10881631
>That's nice but you're still included in all marketing data collection at the moment.
the fact of this happened in capitalism don't invalide my preocupation of the privacy violation, excesive data collecting this make the things more easier for secret police organizations (like stasi and gestapo or whatever similar agency) to identify dissidents and "purge" them.

>Doable with modern information technology.
I suppose you have a real example of this system in practice, because I am very sceptic about the complete eficenty of all this calculations and even the coordination of all the workers in every branch or industry of with out make the same mistakes of the capitalism (like alienation, excesive waste, bad allocation of resources and shortage).

>It's not like a planned economy needs to be completely automated - subjective, collective decisionmaking would figure in.
I agree with that, in fact to be fair, some branches of industry are more manageable in a central planned economy like electricity, gas and water supply because they are very planneable and it´s simple to satisfy the demand. But in microeconomic aspects a planned economy will have many problems to satisfy ever demand of the consumers because 1° you need to get a democratic general agrement with all the society about every product and 2° all this process can be very time consuming, it will be more easier satisfy the demand and choices of the consumers with convencitonal regulated market.

>>10880140
when you start off your sperg rant with "capitalist fascists" no one is going to take you seriously.

>>10881961
>the fact of this happened in capitalism don't invalide my preocupation of the privacy violation, excesive data collecting this make the things more easier for secret police organizations
One benefit compared to a capitalist system in this regard is that accumulation of capital does not translate into political power, and thus there isn't massive political pressure for monetising personal information. Other than that I'm not really sure how to argue exactly, apart from saying it's a tradeoff - higher levels of data collection allow for more precise and efficent planning but also allow more complete surveillance. A rethink of the role and function of the security apparatus of the society would also be a part of the revolutionary change (for the better, call me utopian if you must).

>I suppose you have a real example of this system in practice
An example of a national-scale computerised central planning system? No. As far as I know the only real-world attempts were cybernetics experiments in the Soviet Union and Allende's Chile.
On the practical side, the internet exists and thus real-time data collection and distribution is an everyday occurrence already.

>(like alienation, excesive waste, bad allocation of resources and shortage).
In abandoning the primacy of the profit motive, a giant leap towards solving these issues is already taken. Minimising alienation, waste etc. can be taken as key goals in an economy that is no longer tied to the rules of capital accumulation.

>1° you need to get a democratic general agrement with all the society about every product
Why?
2° all this process can be very time consuming, it will be more easier satisfy the demand and choices of the consumers with convencitonal regulated market.
Easier, but only because the system already exists. A profitless economy would also be better as it would have no need to GENERATE demand via marketing like in capitalism. I also claim that consumer choice would be increased, not reduced.

>>10857365
*MY LEG*
(from sbungbeb lel)

>>10877092
>There are extant communist states right now, and they're doing fine.

I just imagined myself cumming in your face and it was awesome.

>>10861625
i totally get you, but this post was WAAY too intelligent for this board. these neanderthals only understand sentences that have the word fuck in them

>>10860652
>fucking up a sucker punch with a wrench strapped to your wrist
leftist =! human

>>10860692
>Land of the free
Kravchenko and Solzhenitsyn are not names to ignore, friendo.

>>10864525

>so ass mad you write a novel on a porn board

triggered classcucks are great

>>10881868
They're worse.

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>>10855563
For commie scum, that was a good one

>>10882211

Higher levels of data collection only allow for more precise and efficient planning if the data is well understood and the theories that describe what drives those numbers are well formulated. This is why planned economies tend to lag behind capitalist ones, because human understanding of economics is incomplete at best.

Also, you're a utopian. Simply calling for a "rethink" of how national and personal security apparatuses work is a meaningless statement because it merely asserts that, "we can do better if we just think about it more." Well sure, but history is chalk full of revolutionary, anti-capitalists doing plenty of thinking on this and a great many of them arrive at very bad conclusions.

The reason they arrive at very bad conclusions is because it is utopian thinking that drives those bad conclusions. Oppression of thought and action is a strong requirement of any utopia, since dissent against the wisdom and edicts of the thought leaders directly compromises the utopian society. It becomes not only morally justified to oppressively thought police and depower the population, it becomes absolutely necessary.

This is precisely why so many revolutionary utopian idealogues who get into power become mass murders of their own people.

As to the rest of your post, I've heard all of these points before and the best rebuttal is that, when played out in the real world, the theories that predict the failure of planned economies have a much better track record than those that predict their success.

Claiming that abandoning the primacy of profit is a step toward waste mitigation and bad allocation of resources is absolutely rebutted by the fact that these issues were downright pathological in many planned economies of the past and are virulently present in China today. (eg. building massive empty cities just to keep the construction companies busy)

>>10882211
>call me utopian if you must.
Not only you but seems like all the marxist have many utopic believes, like expectic the revolutionary process cannot turn againts the Initiators, in politics the most agressive and popular ideas/leaders tend to dominate over the others damaging even their own ideologists. Look by example the history of URSS, many socialist fall victims of the very system they contribute to create. you only need the wrong people in charge and even the most complex and good willing utopia will turn in a totalitarian shithole.
> the internet exists and thus real-time data collection and distribution is an everyday occurrence already.
Still use market mechanism to decide distribution, in fact most if not all the financial transferences are made online.

> A profitless economy would also be better as it would have no need to GENERATE demand via marketing like in capitalism.
Profit-orientated economies have many limitations but works (with many social disanvantages of course) because higher profit is supposed to act as a stimulus to higher output (the capitalist’s profit arises only if
the customer finds the product ‘worth’ buying), on the implied assumption that this does not run into physical limits which make higher output impossible. This is why, by example, in the case of fishing and hunting, government regulation is NECESARY to preserve enviroment damage. Societies concerned ONLY with profit will fall to pieces (there is no ancap/libertarian paradise). Corruption, in the literal and the figurative sense, can flourish where the making of money becomes the primary aspiration, the dominant criterion of success. The system what I propose is a mixture of a central planning in a macroeconomic level and a regulated market in a microeconomic level with the constant vigilance of the consumers and producers. this seem more doable to me, requiere less radical changes and prepare the road for technological improvements.

>>10882520
>Simply calling for a "rethink" of how national and personal security apparatuses work is a meaningless statement
It was more an allusion to the fact that in the famous case of Soviet Union for example, the Tsarist secret police was replaced by a revolutionary secret police seamlessly, much like KGB was then replaced by FSB. There never was a fundamental operational/institutional change. I don't know what this institutional change should look like in practice, but the wholesale copying of bourgeois institutions was one of the reasons why the SU ended up like it did.

>The reason they arrive at very bad conclusions is because it is utopian thinking that drives those bad conclusions.
Which is why I'm not utopian in the general sense; I reject the notion of building a perfect society because there is no such thing as perfection. "Why not just improve capitalism then" goes the reformist's counterargument - because the profit motive is only rational if people's needs and aspirations should be subservient to those of 'The Market'. The market exists to fulfill people's needs, it is not some esoteric god vaguely intrepreted by high priests (economists) to whom we must all sacrifice ourselves.

>when played out in the real world, the theories that predict the failure of planned economies have a much better track record than those that predict their success.
This applies to any and all novel systems: there is less practical experience with them. One should also note that any discussion or theorising about alternate or future systems are made from assumptions based on the present state of things - predicting the nature of post-profit society is difficult.

>these issues were downright pathological in many planned economies of the past and are virulently present in China today
Profit motive remained for Soviet Union and China despite planning, and these days China is the most genuinely capitalist country - using it as an example of socialist waste is misleading.

>>10882616
>Look by example the history of URSS, many socialist fall victims of the very system they contribute to create. you only need the wrong people in charge and even the most complex and good willing utopia will turn in a totalitarian shithole.
This is why we learn from the past, adopt what was good and provide new ideas where the old produced bad results.

>Still use market mechanism to decide distribution, in fact most if not all the financial transferences are made online.
And the same technological/infrastructural framework can be used for a planned economy.

>Corruption, in the literal and the figurative sense, can flourish where the making of money becomes the primary aspiration, the dominant criterion of success.
But making of money is literally the essence of capitalism; how do you propose to abolish the primacy of profit motive without abolishing capitalism?

>The system what I propose is a mixture of a central planning in a macroeconomic level and a regulated market in a microeconomic level
Very close to what I'm advocating for, at least in the short term. Nationalisation of naturally non-competitive elements of the economy like infrastructure and a market economy for consumer goods. With enough social programmes, progressive taxation and maybe UBI some semblance of meritocracy might be restored.
You still run into problems with the financial industry and global capital - like capital flight or credit rating downgrade if some capitalist doesn't like raised taxes etc. How do you propose to deal with that?
Also how do you propose to deal with political power growing out of accumulated capital? With its influence, the capitalist class would seek to degenerate the state back to maximal privatisation and deregulation.

>>10882726
>This is why we learn from the past, adopt what was good and provide new ideas where the old produced bad results.
While I see people in the Left/Right praising leaders like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pinochet or whatever other "Charismatic" leader I dont rise my hopes very far. Fanatism and nationalism can be a powerfull force to movilice the people but it is a double edge sword, this is why I like precices reforms over sentimental revolutions.

> how do you propose to abolish the primacy of profit motive without abolishing capitalism?
I don´t propose abolish but controled. the national colective interest is over the personal preferences of the rich. In my point of view i rather prefer a bunch of national capitalists competing echother and not a powerfull conglomerate of mutinationals fueled by profit of shady political influences. they need to show their loyalties to the nation clear with thier contributions to the common good and thier can remian in charge of their bussines over the vigilance of the state. The more rich you are more economic responsabilities need to have, they need to become in managers and not in a simple lazy owners.

>You still run into problems with the financial industry and global capital - like capital flight or credit rating downgrade if some capitalist doesn't like raised taxes etc. How do you propose to deal with that?


All this can be controled with severe fiscal policies, also national interes not invalidate multinational cooperation but huge production or public proyects needs to be handle very carrefully to no interfiere negativelly in the economies of the affected nations

>Also how do you propose to deal with political power growing out of accumulated capital?
Power with responsabiliies,Basically You NEED to invest your capital in the nation, I you can't do it, you can solite advice o simple give part to the state and get compensation.

>>10861134
Kek

>>10882922
>While I see people in the Left/Right praising leaders like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pinochet or whatever other "Charismatic" leader I dont rise my hopes very far. Fanatism and nationalism can be a powerfull force to movilice the people but it is a double edge sword
You are absolutely right. For the record I think Stalin was the greatest liberal of the 20th century, managing to kill off both the far-left and far-right challenges to liberal democratic capitalism.

>the national colective interest is over the personal preferences of the rich
How do you mandate this? What sort of criteria/legislation is able to actualise this?

>All this can be controled with severe fiscal policies, also national interes not invalidate multinational cooperation but huge production or public proyects needs to be handle very carrefully to no interfiere negativelly in the economies of the affected nations
>Power with responsabiliies,Basically You NEED to invest your capital in the nation, I you can't do it, you can solite advice o simple give part to the state and get compensation.
So the capitalist class realises that they can only use their capital on a very limited scope, effectively radically reducing its value. This leads to massive capital flight as the capitalists move their assets offshore and a credit downgrade for the nation. Now you have no investment capital in the nation, and loaning money is expensive. Welcome to Latin America & Africa of the 50s and 60s.
What sort of political system are you proposing that is immune to money? It can't be representative democracy, as even in the saner democracies of northern Europe, money spent on electioneering correlates with electoral success.
This type of economic nationalism can easily lead to aggressive foreign trade policies which leads to trade wars where everyone loses. Not to mention actual wars due to economic competititon, as happened in the age of imperialism.

>>10884141
>I think Stalin was the greatest liberal of the 20th century, managing to kill off both the far-left and far-right challenges to liberal democratic capitalism.

"liberal" acording what criteria? killing both enemies and potential political alllies don't make a rasonable human, killing or deporting "greedy kulaks" or just any guy with a family farm againts the forced collectivisation, a fellow comisar in war with diferent politicals ideas, using tanks to force "cooperation" between nations, or literally just purge every thing you does not like, makes you a genuine psicopath and not a liberal hero. He remins me the ancient emperors , he use all the state aparatus in the benefit of the people and being him the representtion of the peoples will (the father of Nations) everthing oposision o divergetion is a enemie of the proleterian. The only thing this guy did right is just win the war (with many casualities and effort) but I supose you are very fond with the idea of the end justify the means.

>How do you mandate this? What sort of criteria/legislation is able to actualise this?

The "easier" way its have capitalist allies and organize groups of interes like sindicates of many industries in a sort of organic democracy.
where the marxists see only conflict between classes I see potential cooperation. thats is when civic nationalism and the empire of law plays his role. it wil be dificult but i see thie more doable in small capitalist nations.

>This type of economic nationalism can easily lead to aggressive foreign trade policies which leads to trade wars where everyone loses.

Wars and conflicts of interest amogns diferent cultures, classes and nations are in the most of the cases a constant in human history, however powerfull alliences between nations can surge and maybe anexation, (I wish the return of the Gran Colombia by example) but all this depend like your system in the unity of people. without that unity we can't achive anithing.

>>10861225

Actually, in the Sovciet Union, there were rewards (financial ones) for those who worked more then others. There was a "minimum pay" to all, but if you worked more then others, you eventually got more money.

Yes, that is a fact. Check soviet propaganda and you'll see that they tried to stimulate this line of thought, and most people were up for it.