systemdenegeracy

The second big problem: Attack Surface

On a hardened system without systemd, you have at most one root-privileged process with any exposed surface: sshd. Everything else is either running as unprivileged users or does not have any channel for providing it input except local input from root. Using systemd then more than doubles the attack surface.

This increased and unreasonable risk is not inherent to systemd's goal of fixing legacy init. However it is inherent to the systemd design philosophy of putting everything into the init process.

RED HAT PAYING DEBIAN TO FORCE SYSTEMD

Systemd is not an init system!!
If someone characterizes systemd as an “init system,” you may safely assume that s/he is either utterly clueless or deliberately obfuscating the discussion. Calling systemd an init system is like calling an automobile a cup holder. Not even Lennart Poettering pretends that systemd is anything but the “Core OS” (sic).

What systemd is is an effort to re-create large portions of existing userspace (including login, job scheduling, and networking, just to name a few) inside a single process traditionally reserved for the sole purpose of starting *nix userspace. (Just in case it isn't clear, there is a huge difference between starting userspace (init) and being userspace (systemd).)

At the end of the day, how one perceives this re-creation of existing userspace strongly influences one's reaction to systemd. There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons to be troubled by this re-invention of the wheel; they range from the philosophical and aesthetic, to the technical and mechanical, even the purely political and brutally practical.

And that's part of the problem when folks start to “debate” systemd. Very few folks have the chops to think about, much less talk about all of these areas simultaneously. As a result, the discussion becomes fractured and disjointed, in what is literally the textbook definition of bikeshedding. Suddenly, a talking head who's never written a line of code in his/her life offers up an authoritative-sounding-but-utterly-bogus opinion on systemd's maintainability. Add in the fact that folks on both sides (including Poettering himself) act as if name-calling is a perfectly good substitute for empirical evidence, and the “debate” becomes indistinguishable from white noise.

Full story:
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371

Linus Torvalds bashing systemd developers for making kernel developers work around their problems

mailing message:

>Key, I'm f*cking tired of the fact that you don't fix problems in the code *you* write, so that the kernel then has to work around the problems you cause.

>Greg - just for your information, I will *not* be merging any code from Kay into the kernel until this constant pattern is fixed.

>This has been going on for *years*, and doesn't seem to be getting any better. This is relevant to you because I have seen you talk about the kdbus patches, and this is a heads-up that you need to keep them separate from other work. Let distributions merge it as they need to and maybe we can merge it once it has been proven to be stable by whatever distro that was willing to play games with the developers.

>But I'm not willing to merge something where the maintainer is known to not care about bugs and regressions and then forces people in other projects to fix their project. Because I am *not* willing to take patches from people who don't clean up after their problems, and don't admit that it's their problem to fix.

>Kay - one more time: you caused the problem, you need to fix it. None of this "I can do whatever I want, others have to clean up after me" crap.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTY1MzA

NASA engineer explains why systemd is problematic

>My problem with this is that the order in which services are started should, in my opinion, be exactly the same each time and predictable to the sysadmin. With systemd, the order is not deterministic, so you don’t know what’s going to happen next time you boot. I work with servers and embedded devices; I don’t care much about boot time. A server spends several minutes in the BIOS during POST anyway, before the bootloader is even run; making the OS boot faster doesn’t change very much. Embedded devices already start quickly because you trim them down to the bare minimum. What I care about is that every time I boot, the same exact things happen in the same exact order — the order that I want.

>It seems no one can agree on whether systemd is modular or not. I think the problem is with different definitions of ‘modularity’. Systemd doesn’t put everything in PID 1 like some people suggest; it uses modules that communicate with each other. So it is modular in that sense. But these modules are very tightly integrated. You can’t easy remove some of them, or replace them with other things. So in that sense it is very monolithic. This is not at all like having a simple interface and passing data via stdin and stdout, which is the modularity that makes UNIX pipes possible. This is the sense that matters to me.

>[...]I dislike the way systemd is absorbing everything. It’s not just an init system, it’s become an everything-under-the-hood includes-the-kitchen-sink management system. That doesn’t feel modular to me. Why should systemd implement NTP when ntpd already exists? I think systemd-timesyncd and all the others like it are just reinventing the wheel.

Full article: https://bsdmag.org/randy_w_3/

I wonder who's paying you to create all these threads? Is it FreeBSD foundation?

>>61555402
t. poettering

>>61554655
He is a nigger, but white.

>>61555402
>freebsd is not affected by systemd
>he thinks freebsd therefore is concerned about systemd
top kek

>autism thread

>>61555402
It's Microsoft, divide and conquer

>>61555674
systemd is a big improvement for the Linux ecosystem, so people spreading FUD about it should really hate Linux. I don't think MS does anymore, but *bsd folks are always envious of LInux's success.

>>61555711
>systemd is a big improvement
This don't need any improvement:

int main()
{
    sigset_t set;
    int status;

    if (getpid() != 1) return 1;

    sigfillset(&set);
    sigprocmask(SIG_BLOCK, &set, 0);

    if (fork()) for (;;) wait(&status);

    sigprocmask(SIG_UNBLOCK, &set, 0);

    setsid();
    setpgid(0, 0);
    return execve("/etc/rc", (char *[]){ "rc", 0 }, (char *[]){ 0 });

Systemd: The Biggest Fallacies
13 fallacies used by systemd shills to promote the use of systemd:
http://judecnelson.blogspot.com.br/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html

>>61555726
+ hundreds of unmaintainable shell scripts

>Systemd is an exploit kit just waiting to be activated. And once it is active, only those who wrote it will be able to defuse it — and check whether it is defused. And it is starting: How to crash systemd in one tweet? Alternatives? Use OpenRC for system services. That’s simple and fast and full-featured with minimal fuss. Use runit for process supervision of user-services and system-services alike.

http://www.draketo.de/light/english/top-5-systemd-troubles

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"We try to get rid of many of the more pointless differences of the various distributions in various areas of the core OS. As part of that we sometimes adopt schemes that were previously used by only one of the distributions and push it to a level where it's the default of systemd, trying to gently push everybody towards the same set of basic configuration."
— Lennart Poettering, main developer of systemd

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>>61554680
>News flash: There is exactly one Debian, and nothing--nothing--compares to it.

>NASA doesn't run Arch. Amazon and Google don't rely on Mageia.

>In terms of sheer impact on both the larger LinuxSphere and the global economy, there are exactly two “major” distros: Debian and RedHat. (SUSE is a very distant third, and everything else is just noise.)

>A change in Debian affects mission-critical and life-critical software across the globe, touches literally tens of thousands of organizations, and ripples through a hundred derivatives and spinoffs.

Feels good to be using world's best distribution.

>>61555874
>unmaintainable shell scripts
For example:

#!/bin/sh MPDCONF=/etc/mpd.conf
exec mpd --stdout --no-daemon $MPDCONF

A fucking maze of code!

>>61556458
That's not enough, you have to stop it as well. And post init script for something more interesting, like mysql.

>>61556344
Devuan?
>>61556458
could you please delete this?

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>>61556562
Why do you think that a 70Mb collection of parallelized and tightly coupled compiled C and arbitrary unit files is "more maintainable" than some sequentially executed bash scripts? Are you fucking retired?

>>61556794
Because distribution maintainers and software developers can just focus on systemd configs, which is way easier to write and maintain.

>>61556819
>which is way easier to write and maintain.
hahahahahahahahahaha

>>61556819
So, the actual goal of systemd is to keep the plebs from looking into PID 1 code at all?

>>61556833
You have no idea, don't you?
>>61556840
Who the fuck "looked" into PID 1 code of SysV init at all, besides the developers? The goal of systemd is to make the life of distribution maintainers, system administrators and software developers easier, and you can see it works because most of the major distributions have adopted it.

>>61556908
The fact that you posit that there should be a significant separation between "the developers", maintainers, system administrators and user software developers is part of the problem.

Don't kid yourself. Red Hat wanted systemd, and they hold a lot of political power in the Linux community. If Debian and SUSE wanted to play nice with the corporate boys and continue to share userland programming efforts, they had to fall in line.

>>61557099
>The fact that you posit that there should be a significant separation between "the developers", maintainers, system administrators and user software developers is part of the problem.
What? Why should there be a significant separation between different roles people use the system as?
I'm a developer and I appreciate system tools making my life easier without making it harder for users. I had to maintain SysV init scripts for the software we develop at work and it's not fun, systemd makes it much easier.

>>61554734
>My problem with this is that the order in which services are started should, in my opinion, be exactly the same each time and predictable to the sysadmin. With systemd, the order is not deterministic, so you don’t know what’s going to happen next time you boot. I work with servers and embedded devices; I don’t care much about boot time. A server spends several minutes in the BIOS during POST anyway, before the bootloader is even run; making the OS boot faster doesn’t change very much. Embedded devices already start quickly because you trim them down to the bare minimum. What I care about is that every time I boot, the same exact things happen in the same exact order — the order that I want.

Good for him, he's wrong, though.

>>61557260
>no u
no u

>>61557221
>missing the point this hard
I thought that software developers were supposed to be smart.

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>>61555402
someone who may have been using Linux older than a week? I am also buttblasted, but I took another path.. just given up Linux completely.

I mean come on, when I started using Linux:
> we have click-click-click Nvidia and AMD driver install by some italian faggot, but it worked insanely well
> we had 100+FPS desktop GL with effects, theming, and ridiculous customization (Beryl, Emerald, Compiz, etc.)
> almost every game ran through Wine or Cedega

Now?
> drivers are a fucking mess
> desktop acceleration is a mess, only Intel works at the moment properly
> we have like 1000s of shit indie games that run natively but are worthless. proper games don't run anymore, Wine is in a never seen mess of a state.

Kinda sad we dreamed of global domination and now it's more of a hobby OS than it was 10 years ago.
Even Ubuntu given up on Unity and whatnot.
Shit sucks.

> mfw Poettering 's commits and shit

ITT: systemd retards BTFO

also:
Globalist german takes 4,5 years to create pulseaudio and gets hired by Red Hat (Google) to write init

>>61557418
>Installing external graphic cards on linux in 2017
You are the problem. Linux wasn't made for gaming you degenerate.

>>61557487
Gaming was only ONE point.
Everything is worse than it was 10 years ago.

> inb4 but mpv plays my animoo
Fuck off.

>>61557221
Give up.
The harder you try to educate the /g/tard, the more determined they become to double down on stupid.

>>61554655
this is the faggot with that shitty systemd! he must be shot! fuckin CIA NIGGER

>>61557487
Graphic cards are used professionally too. An OS that tries to be mainstream but doesn't have features that professionals need is doomed to stay irrelevant and niche.

>>61557418
>ubuntu has given up on unity

Unity was fucking shit, thats why they gave up on it.

Noone wanted that crap just like noone wants gnome 3. Thank fuck cinnamon/MATE/KDE exist.

>>61558851
>professionals

>>61559065
>KDE
Budgie > KDE

>>61559065
Any average joe could use it, even a total normie could learn to use it in no time.
It was very well made. And even experienced users could use it.
I personally was not a fan, but I did use Ubuntu for normie installs, and it worked wonders.

Since then I moved them to Windows 10. It's the community that has given up on Linux, can't do shit about that.

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>>61559253
> Budgie

> never heard about it
> check website
> there is literally no info on it
> check wiki
> Budgie is a distro-agnostic desktop environment, leveraging GNOME technologies

> into_the_trash_it_goes.webm

What went through the devs head?
> Hmm, Joe, what will happen if I pile shit upon shit?
> I don't know, let's find out!
And thus, Budgie was born?

>>61559323
shut the fuck up

>>61560036
One more of this and I will screencap this for your mother.
Say goodbye to the basement anon if you don't behave.
Be nice to people.

>>61556819
It's true though.

>>61557418
>desktop acceleration is a mess
For you

Name a better alternative to systemd having half of it's features.

>>61560605
Open-RC

>>61554655
>that quote

Makes me rage everytime since tons of outcast kids got into computers because you could be whoever online, as in your race, economic background, ect meant nothing.

>>61560071
but how can you say Budgie is worse than GNOME while GNOME is virtually the Chrome of DE?
>>61560605
sysvinit

>>61560820
everything is racism according to Lennart the globalist german
If you don't like systemd is because you are a fucking white male

  $ cat /etc/init/udev.conf
  
  # udev - device node and kernel event manager
  #
  # The udev daemon receives events from the kernel about »
    « changes in the
  # /sys filesystem and manages the /dev filesystem.
  
  description    "device node and kernel event manager"
  
  start on virtual-filesystems
  stop on runlevel [06]
  
  expect fork
  respawn
  
  exec udevd --daemon

Upstart 100000000000000000000000x better than systemd

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>>61554655
STOP SYSTEMD BEFORE IS TOO LATE!

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Fuck you, Bdale Garbage.

>>61554655
>Poettering is German
Once again krauts prove their eternal treachery to the free world

Never trust a kraut

>>61554655
>bringing down the whole system when it crashes
Its my experience that it doesn't crash, so your entire argument is a non-starter.

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>>61565402
Another rupee has been deposited by RedShat in your account, pajeet. Save up for toilet paper and someday you can stop using your left hand.

>>61554655
lmao the state of linux, enjoy getting cucked by some german sjw nazi while I actually go to work with my Windows machine, linuxkeks hehehe

>>61554655

IM A FUCKING REAL PROGRAMMER I STILL DONT KNOW WHAT SYSTEM D EVEN IS

If you dislike systemd then you're an autist! Literally everybody loves systemd! The only place I've seen people complain about it is 4chan!

>>61559242
If you want to crunch a lot of numbers, having access to an external graphics card might help. It's not just for gaming.

>>61560605
People don't want the init system to have all of systemd's features.

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>>61557221
Now go fuck RedShat's Tar Baby harder, lazy asshole.

>>61565904
>People don't want the init system to have all of systemd's features.

lmao I'm not going back to using dmesg, journalctl rocks.

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>>61566165
Now go suck off LP, pajeet. Don't forget to swallow.

>>61566247
pajeets don't use desktop Linux dude.

>>61554655
Every init system is PID 1.

>>61554661
Every part of systemd besides the init is ran unprivileged.

REALLY MAKES YOU THINK