why are C and C++ dying?

All languages are dying compared to javascript.

>>61343522
How were people using Rust before it existed?

max performance and speed arent a large concern in most cases anymore because everyone has 4 cores and 8gb of ram

They're not dying as much as they aren't growing as fast as other languages. You really don't need the performance of C for a lot of applications, so people go with languages that are easier for one reason or another. One of the main downsides of C is that you have dependencies on native libraries, while languages that target the JVM really only need to be compiled once.

>>61343522
how can small white dick even compete with superior black PYTHON dick?

>this is fake news
>try making any serious reliable system in java or python
>pro tip you can't

>>61343522
I think it is more that more enterprisey projects are moving to github. These are relative numbers, not absolute.

>>61343586
time travel mostly

>>61343609
I just paid for a masturbation-experience-enhancing piece of technology through my bank's web portal and it worked. They run on Java. Your argument is therefore invalid.

>>61343609
>>try making any serious reliable system in java or python
>implying trillions of dollars are not already running on Java

>>61343552
kek

>>61343522
The majority of software created at this point is in mobile and web applications. The majority of developers don't care about, don't need to, or simply aren't competent to write "lower level" software. Just like electrical engineering, at this point, software development for most people is just putting legos together. That is the expanding market, the main demographic drawn to it, and where the infrastructure is being most heavily developed.

On another note, even though I mainly write in C and C++, I do occasionally write in Haskell, and have come to think functional languages are likely the future of high performance code. Unless imperative language compilers have some sort of AI driven ability to infer context and intent, optimization capacity is limited to a much lower threshold. Declarative languages by design express what must be done, not how. A sufficiently advanced specialized intelligence could probably devise a series of state changes much better, and faster, than a human programmer, and use more efficient constructs than an imperative programming language's facilities provide any real access to. Especially at the pace at which most commercial software is generally developed.

We'll see.

>>61343522
Because Rust > C

>Java
>C#
>Python
The holy trinity.

>>61343522
stfu and learn java and python for increased job security

>>61343943
If you put this in your resume, no one will hire you because they'll think you're a memester.

>>61343609
python is obviously for gluing shit together and smaller things

but java should not be underestimated, it has the same C based syntax and now does pretty much C++ shit but with a better standard library

>>61343522
>>61343522
CS pajeets

>>61343948
but Java is already my main language and I write Python scripts to automate stuff from time to time

I've read Head first Java, where to I go from here?

I want to immigrante to Australia one day and become a professional programmer

>>61343689
>and have come to think functional languages are likely the future of high performance code
just lol

>>61343609
>try making any serious reliable system in java
https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-93/product_id-19116/Oracle-JDK.html
wew lad

>muh apps

>>61343522
>why are C and C++ dying

When anyone can be a Koder, no one can be a programmer

>>61343522
Because the whole "hurr let's make coding more accessable and teach da kids" (aka let's making programmers a commodity so we can pay them less) has made it so retards who can't understand C are now coding

>>61344072
>t.pajeet

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FRESH NEW DATA INCOMING
https://www.jetbrains.com/research/devecosystem-2017/

>>61344360
> 9% don't use an IDE
What the fuck do they program on?

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>>61344438
the answer is literally below that entry

>>61344360
JUST IN: C# PROGRAMMERS CONFIRMED FOR BEING /V/ BABBIES

>the fun languages are all growing
yay

Not necessary anymore for a lot of use cases. Can make mobile, native, and web apps all in JavaScript.

>>61344360
>65% javascript
world is doomed

>>61343522
>Python increasing

For what purpose?

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>>61343522
There was a recent study (from 2013 or so) stating that there's over TRILLION dollars invested into C++ and C codebases by Fortune 1000 companies.
C++/C ain't going anywhere. If you know them, you'll have a good paying job FOREVER.
Out of all these langs, I'd probably pick Swift as the one to learn. It's backed by huge companies (Apple and IBM) and jobs are in high demand for it. Should be a good extension of your C++ skillset.

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well that's ugly

>>61343522
>chart contains matlab
>no javascript

AHAHAHAHAHA. all of the posts made in this thread have been made irrelevant. this graph does not accurately represent reality (figured out thanks to me) and thus the discussion builds on false data

go back to shilling your favorite cpu vendor

>>61344607
a trillion dollars in SV is like $30 and a hot dog
C++/C is dead

>>61344438
I just use notepad++. MSYS2 for gcc etc.

I don't really like IDEs. They're slow and often get in the way more than they simplify. Though I also don't work on large projects with other people.

>>61344642
>We did not include Javascript because …
>The first reason is that 40% of Github users we analyzed had JS in their profiles, and the proposed transition model becomes useless. The second is, citing Erik, “(a) if you are doing it on the frontend, you are kind of stuck with it anyway, so there’s no moving involved (except if you do crazy stuff like transpiling, but that’s really not super common) (b) everyone refers to Javascript on the backend as ‘Node’”. Our data retrieval pipeline could not distinguish regular JS from Node and thus we had to exclude it completely.

everyone knows that JS is very popular. you tune your autism down a bit

>>61344651
says a guy who doesn't even own his house.
kek. stay mad pajeet.

>>61344735
don't you have more froggy cakes to bake on reddit jacob?

>>61344008
Java doesn't have a better standard library. Scanner in and buffer is a nightmare to the simplicity of cin/out. Also no overriding so comparing different variable types is brutal and dealing with strings in Java is shit. That being said there's no point to c# when Java and c++ exists

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>>61344672
You just haven't used a good IDE, then.

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>>61343522
Brainlets.

>>61343522
How is this graph even calculated? No way was R used *more* over ten years ago than it is now.

>>61344790
>the simplicity of cin/out
If you're talking about iostreams, on what fucking planet do you live on where iostreams are "simple"?

They're not dying; they're just becoming less relevant. C and C++ are still major choices for embedded programming and high performance applications. But because hardware has improved greatly, and we're seeing more platforms than just the desktop, other languages are seeing greater utility. You'll note one of the larger growing languages on that chart is Java. Well, Android applications pretty much require Java, and mobile is becoming a bigger and more relevant platform.

>>61343689
Functional programming has been the future for the past 60 years.

>>61344924
Program speed is inversely proportional to the amount of transistors on a CPU, and it's been getting progressively worse over the last 30 years.

That's because nobody gives a shit about optimization.
You can't optimize javascript that runs miles and miles above the CPU in an uncountably infinite amount of abstraction layers over the operating system hosting your web browser.

>>61344887
https://blog.sourced.tech/post/language_migrations/
according to this R users are migrating to Python hard

>>61343522
I remember learning Perl back at the very start of this chart. I don't think I ever used it once for anything.

>>61343522
All of the Microcucks use C# or whatever.

>>61344950
>migrating to a language that is for all intents and purposes slower at doing exactly what you were probably using it for

I don't get this. I've used R, and I've used Python with the pandas and numpy libraries. R is noticeably faster. The only use you get out of Python is that it's easier for modern day newbies because they all learn Python.

I like the numpy library and all for other uses, but when it comes to large-scale data analysis or even just database manipulation, R is a lot nicer for it.

>>61344008
Java is like a really shit version of Ada. It has a good standard library, but it's missing useful features like range type checks, overflow checks, custom modular types, array slicing and static verification. Versions of Ada targeting the JVM seem like they would just be a better version of Java.

>>61344651
The point is not the trillion dollars, it's the fact that the world runs on C/C++. If you want to replace it it's going to cost AT LEAST 10 times as much as it cost to develop it.

>>61344893
brainlet detected.

>>61344950
>>61345059
I work in the meme "data science" field and pretty much anyone with any real credentials (i.e. actual degree in statistics) prefers R.
However, where I work, Python is probably used more frequently only because more often than not it has better APIs etc. for retrieving data.

>>61344672
>I just use notepad++. MSYS2 for gcc etc.
>I don't really like IDEs. They're slow and often get in the way more than they simplify.

Ah yes, the classic mid-2000s C++ programmer

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Why does no one ever use lisp?

>>61343552
DELID

>>61345353
I really don't get the appeal of lisp, personally. What makes it better than haskell or C?

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>>61345170
On the contrary, there is no other way to describe your point of view than ignorant.

Pic related is considered the definitive reference on the subject and it's almost 700 fucking pages long.

700 pages. Of iostreams. What the fuck. My copy of third edition Effective C++ is half that.

>>61344790
>>61345170
C++ iostreams are fucking garbage.
C's stdio is infinitely better than them in every conceivable aspect.

>>61343586
This

the chart is probably something totally different and some /g/ user has added fake labels.

>>61345353
it looks like the perfect thing in simple examples, but then it gets messy and much less readable than more verbose languages when you try to make something real. and then when you add type annotations (which I refuse to work without except for small utility scripts) it gets even worse.
so writing your own interpreter and implementing some trivial shit is in it is very fun. but this is where it ends for me

>>61345657
I'm the OP and here's the link to the source >>61344950

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>>61345353
The fucking braces. I swear to god that shit looks disgusting and confusing. I prefer Lua, it's pretty much lisp minus braces plus some sugar on top, it's fucking beautiful.

>>61345655
This. While there are nice features in C++, iostreams aren't one of them. Stdio is way fucking better.

>>61343597
/thread

>>61344360
I wonder why rust didnt make the cut out of "others" is it because jetbrains dont have any rust products yet?

>>61344532
scripting,
machine learning,
small-scale web apps

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>>61345705
Lisp is the most beautiful programming language of all - both syntactically and mathematically.

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I really don't see the point of graphs like these, this "popularity" doesn't even seem valid, you have to consider the cruft, look at how many projects in these higher level languages are just copy-pasted examples or "my first commit!!!" type thing, how many are forks of a project that have no meaningful commits (my personal fork of X but with a CoC). This whole thing seems as irrelevant as comparing lines of code across project and/or languages, the metric is meaningless.

What languages are being used where and for what project, how often are they used, are they useful in that field?

An observed influx of "programmers" for language X doesn't mean anything either when considering what I said above, there may be a gorillion new JavaScript programmers a year but how many of them stay in the industry, either professionally or otherwise, how many of them will even continue using the language they started on. I learned shell scripting as my first language for a platform that doesn't even exist anymore and later learned Python, I use neither today and most of my projects in them were shit, I've since moved on to other languages and the things I make with them are much more valuable to people who aren't just me.

>>61343522
because they're used in high performance game engines.

>>61343522
> swift
> 2000

wut

>>61345852
I don't think so. They don't have official Elixir or Haskell products either. As for Rust, I'm fairly sure they're already considering acquiring this https://intellij-rust.github.io/ and making a Rust IDE because it seems like they're able to pump them IDEs out like it's nothing nowadays. It's probably not as popular as you would like to believe yet.

>>61345907
>not working on revolutionary swift iphone apps from your comfy world trade center office in 2000

>>61343522
Pajeet cannot into efficient languages.

>>61343597
This logic is why your web browsers need 2GiB of ram to run

>>61345705
>Skin walkers are actually LISP programmers
I wouldn't worry about it.

>>61343522
Productivity.

Companies need code done fast even if performance take a hit.

>>61344213
It's ignorant to equate convenience and usability with stupidity.

>>61345971
okay, apparently the two main contributors of https://intellij-rust.github.io/ are actually JetBrains employees

>>61345998
this logic is why the web platform is getting so powerful so fast
inb4 you complain about some shitty website running poorly on your 2005 thinkpad

>>61343522
They're becoming elite stuff.
As they are not very good at avoiding shit like buffer overruns, "safer" languages like java are getting the preference in places where the performance is not as needed.

But you always will need an actually fast and low level language to write OSes and the interpreters that run the shitty pleb languages and java ain't gonna do it.

>>61345681
100% agree with this.

If you look at the Land of Lisp book there are some simple game implementations, but the second you try to implement something more complex you realise his implementations don't scale out complexity-wise.

>>61344072
>where to I go from here?
>I want to immigrante to Australia one day
somewhere else

fuck off, we're full

>>61346069
>inb4 you complain about some shitty website running poorly on your 2005 thinkpad
according to chromium inspector, gmail takes 10 seconds to stop loading shit and facebook takes 5 seconds. Outlook looks like it took about 25 seconds. I have a Core i7 2600k; this is not acceptable.

outlook apparently downloaded 2.5MB of content. How fuck fuck did they even manage that?

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>>61343522

>>61346211
really makes you think

>>61343522
Because it's annoying tedious bullshit superseded by Rust and D

>>61346687
D isn't even on the chart

>>61343597
This. C will probably stick around but C/C++ is going to die off. Hopefully soon.

>>61344467
>what are unity devs

>>61345879
Homoiconicity is a misfeature. It's incredibly flexible, but that means that developers are free to crawl up their own asshole with their own abstractions that nobody else knows how to use and don't scale. That's also why there are a billion slightly incompatible Lisp and Scheme implementations - when anybody can create a compiler, anybody does.

>>61346968
19 year olds who make awful fucking games.

>>61346968
oh yeah, I completely forgot about that bunch

In the future, Go will be very big

screencap this

>>61343522
Because originally C... was used for low level stuff AND also high level stuff, because there weren't many decent high level languages with big ecosystems. Now that there are many decent high level languages with big ecosystems, C... is used for what it's especially good for, which is high performance low level stuff.
It's also become easier than ever to write non-performance critical stuff in a high level language and just write the performance critical stuff in C.

>>61347103
But people in the future will use Rust or Go instead of C because writing C code sucks when you actually know any other modern language

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P Y T H O N
Y
T
H
O
N

>>61345996
What matters the real world is results. Using an efficient language doesn't necessarily make you more productive.

>>61343522
java is f*cking horrible

>>61343552
javascript only exists because microsoft destroyed everything else webside

>>61344360
Someone's migrating to VB?

Are you sure? How many projects does that graph represent?

perl dead, ruby on suicide watch, python stagnating

javascript undefeated

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>>61348071
ye, picrel

>>61348040
no

>>61348100
all of them

>>61343522
Because it's too hard for millenials, who are used to getting everything easy. Being objectively better languages is unimportant.

>>61348189
Millennials are the last tech savvy generation. Most kids nowadays are complete shit with desktops.

>>61348189
Well i think it depends on usage context...

Out of all programming branches, its undeniable that the hot job atm is web and mobile dev. Languages associated to that will have more growth. I think thats why object oriented and automatic mem allocs just tòok off. (I consider python users lazy).

On the flipside, Pascal is a staple in performance physics computations and it is *not* going away no matter how many cores or ram you throw at intractable mathematics problems of this tier. I this area, i am impresssed at R though, its really made a name for itself!

The trend itself is unimportant, what matters is the activity of the fields for which each language is a core component of.

I wish it would go more towards a scientific or real-time computation trend, but business mobile and web is unstoppable now..

>>61343522
They're not? It's just that the demand for native software is pretty consistent while the demand for Pajeet tier garbage exponentially increases each year.

>>61347048
Yet: Racket > CL > Rust > Idris > ATS > Perl 6 > Haskell > C11 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ruby >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Java >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Python >> C# > PHP

>>61344481
but c++ is fun

>>61343552
fpbp

>>61343522
Because important projects aren't on github

>>61345513
The versatile macros, which permits to turn a program into something more of a declarative form than any other language (maybe Prolog apart), I suppose.

>>61343522
Because there are no "Hello World!" tutorials in C or C++ that end with pushing a project to Github.

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>>61347066
Thank God, it will.

>yfw go rise in popularity makes plan 9 concepts relevant again

>>61343522
Pascal seems stable.

>>61347066
>>61350231
>garbage collected C

>>61343522
>why are C and C++ dying?
pajeet can't handle C/C++

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All these things are flawed

>>61343522
What are these charts called

>>61350287
So go is c+?

>>61350300
>java still being on top and not budging
why is this? why do people think java is the way to go?

>>61350318
It's a containment language for brainlets.

>>61350318
More like dumbed-down C fit for a multithreaded memory model. Basically the C of the 21st century.

>>61350326
It is entrenched in the enterprise and large organisations that have codebases that would take tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to rewrite in another language

>>61350341
well that's a fair argument, but wouldn't you expect those companies to rely on different languages for new projects/modules and shouldn't new start-ups/smaller companies not use java? this would result in a decent drop of popularity

>>61343522
They aren't dying as such; you'll find their levels probably haven't gone down that much in real terms only other languages have gone up in real terms decreasing the c overall share

>>61350326
Let's ask some business people...
...
They tell me three things:
- C++ made them lost money
- Java is the main language of Android
- Java apps are deliverable everywhere (on this one, I laugh heartily)

>>61343552
pls del

because jython has no gil and thus is superior

>>61350356
>but wouldn't you expect those companies to rely on different languages for new projects/modules
Why would I expect a large organisation with paid java employees to write stuff in a language other than java?

>shouldn't new start-ups/smaller companies not use java
I do expect this, startups will use whatever is on the front page of hackernews on the day they are supposed to decide what language to use

>>61350367
>oh god, we hired retarded people that lost us money, bet the language is at fault
>it's not as if every company develops solely for android and they have to use one language for everything
>because I can't compile c/c++ for different architectures

>daily reminder that hardware will always be cheaper than good programmers

Languages that aren't C and C++ are much faster to prototype shit in. Only companies with Google-size problems need to start worrying about optimizing their backend code by rewriting in C++. Sure, you might be paying more to Herr Bezos, but:
>there's plenty of opportunities for optimization that aren't related to the language the backend is written in
>additional hardware/hosting costs from unoptimized code are almost always cheaper than signing on a C++ programmer or several at $100k/year/head

With C/C++ projects, companies would likely need to either hire more developers, or better developers at a higher salary, in order to match the development speed of a project written in another higher-level language. It might be technical debt, but not every company has or expects a Facebook-sized userbase.

>>61350403
You are totally right on those points. Especially the first one.

I work on a C++ project. Most guys who worked before me were writing in C++ as if it was Java, "new"s everywhere and no conscience of RAII, irrelevant choices of containers, etc.
Java and GCed languages were invented for this kind of idiots.

>>61343609
>try making any serious reliable system in python

Eve Online is mostly made in Python.

>>61350599
>serious
>reliable
>"socket closed" disconnects daily

There's a reason banks and nuclear power plants don't run on Python.

>>61350749
That has nothing to do with the language.
Eve will just aggressively disconnect you when it notices many lost packets. It's deliberate.

>>61345596
The only slightly harder stuff about iostreams are streambuffers if you really need to implement one.

>>61343552
>All languages are dying compared to javascript.
Ironic considering it isn't a programming language

skiddies. thats why

>>61344935
And more and more of it is implemented in mainstream languages. That's why lispers say others just copy the features of lisp.

>>61343597
Except in performance-heavy 3D applications.

>>61351822
Only the good bits, in a primarily procedural/OOP environment.
Pure functional languages are too arcane for normies, having lambda and map does not mean Java will spontaneously transform into LISP or Haskell.

>>61345655

They're not even type-safe, let's start with that.
Also given 'stream' and 'thing', how hard is

stream << thing;

What the fuck.

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>mfw they taught pascal in programming 101 at uni

>>61344360
j u s t

>learning Java EE
>it's absolute dogshit
>look over to other coworkers
>all of them spend 60% of their time on stack overflow
I don't want to live like this, I'm getting out

>>61348203
Milennials got to experience a more old school childhood depending on the year born. Kids now have tablets and cell phones in their cradles and shit, I really don't know if that will make them better... I think it'll somehow make them worse...

>>61344518
WebAssembly will make web great again

>>61351690
It's most definitely a programming language.

>>61343522
because shekelberg wants to be able to import incompetent codemonkeys from india with ease

>>61345896

Pretty much this.
Inflating statistics is very easy.

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>>61343522
All essential programs have already been written.

>>61345879
Nice SICP copy-pasting, try to make something original and actually useful, then we'll talk

>>61347055
>19 year olds
That's oddly specific.
Usually they're 15 tho

>>61343522
because developer time is more important than CPU time

wimmin and cucks outnumber actual programmers now.

C/C++ is for 60 white men to make an operating system with nothing but vi and a mailing list in 90 days.

not C/C++ is for kimmie and johan to make their jew bosses a personal information skimmer that looks like a social media platform

>>61343609
Who are you quoting?

>>61348521
>Rust > Haskell
>Ruby > Java
>Java > Python > C#

I hope your entire family gets raped you fucking subhuman.

>>61343522
>java
Who gives a shit

How the fuck did this misrepresented bait topic get this many replies?

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>>61344008
>>61343522
This stupid C/C++ vs Java argument will be going until the end of time. Just stop and use whatever language you feel comfortable with, fuck sake

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>>61350287
>garbage collected C
sure, why not http://chrisseaton.com/plas15/safec.pdf

>>61350326
>why is this? why do people think java is the way to go?
why wouldn't they?

>>61350599
>pygame.py
KEK

>>61344790
>Scanner in and buffer
I hope you are aware of the rather simple

String content = new String(Files.readAllBytes(Paths.get("urafagget.txt")));

>>61347048
>>61347166
>>61347857
>>61353146
these

>>61348106
good, except for that last part

>>61353383
and by mostly he meant mostly the servers which isn't too hard

>>61351690
being this stupid

>>61353407
Now read an int from stdin.

>>61353902

in.nextInt()

, where in is a reference to a Scanner of System.in

>>61345176
Professional memer here as well
Have a degree in econometrics

Much prefer R and the way it feels and the hadlyverse etc etc, but my current job is 90% text data and holy shit R sucks with text data

>>61353225
Employers

>>61343609
when i was 19 i worked for a DoD contractor because of my parents

i wrote control software all in java, that shit is currently on US navy boats firing lasers or railguns or something

it uses fucking swing gui and i'm pretty sure it's literally all in one main.java file LOL

>>61343976
>getting hired
>not making your own destiny

This is why Cplusfags are inferior

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>>61354525
I'm pretty sure it's not

>>61354607
i promise it is
we made the accelerators for the navy laser

>>61354674
I meant one main.java file

>>61354682
i mean i wrote it so

>>61343522

you will find all kinds of different charts that show different languages "dying" or becoming more popular. Funny thing is they NEVER match. It's fake news. Can't rely on it. People put these out to lure noobs into using certain languages over others.

>>61353317
because java is shit.

>>61355797
you're wrong

>>61354525
>tfw DoD cyber Sim GUI currently work on in tkinter
Yeah they don't really care.

>>61344949
this. Commodore 64 was amazing. Now my Ryzen PC takes 3 mintues to boot

>>61343522
Fuck off with your fake news and misleading infographics fagget.

is coffeescript cancer?
Also should i learn scheme?

>>61357547
>is coffeescript cancer?
no, but it's shit

>Also should i learn scheme?
you should learn basics of any lisp if you don't know them already

>>61357520
>tfw you are depressed after dealing with segfaults all day and then you come on /g/ only to see that your deprecated languages are dying
yeah, I can see why you're so upset

>>61343522
cause more and more idiots start getting into progrmming and they can't figure out c or c++

How can I learn to design frameworks/programs? Have no problem with Syntax or single methods

Help out a pajeet

>>61343609
How can be someone so disconnected from reality?

>>61344467
C# programmers use Windows so they have more videogames available.

>>61358534
1. be a neet
2. have /g/ as your sole source of software dev knowledge

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>>61353407
>reading the entire file into memory at once

>>61353088
Make sense...

>>61358686
>not reading the entire 12 byte long file into memory at once

>>61358906
>working with anything but Big Data in 2017
hello my dear fizzbuzz engineer

>>61358955
yes, urafagget.txt is not big data. it contains the string "UR A FAGGET"

>>61343552
>anons still don't know the difference between javascript and java

>>61345998

you must be the anon who was arguing with me in one of the dpt threads about python.

listen gramps im sorry that nobody wants to hire you to spend all day re-inventing wheels in c++ to save a meg or two of space or 2 seconds per day of processing time. there was a time when performance boosts on this scale were relevant but those days are gone.

>>61343522
Python and java are more popular becase they are more portable. Writing a C program on Linux would require writing completely different code than on windows. Linux would need unix sockets and windows needs the winapi. But in java it's all the same code. I can write a network program in java on linux and it will run fine on windows or mac or whatever else java runs on.

>>61344672
Visual Code is superior and also free.

>>61343599
It depends of the use. C++ is still the way to go with professional software, right? But comparing that sector to whole hobbyist base who never develope anything professional in their lives doesn't really show the whole picture.

100% of the rise in java is due to Minecraft

>>61343522
that's just normies finding out about github

>>61363306
no it's not. there are 65,000 US open java job offers listed right now on indeed. that's 3x more than the number of existing minecraft mods/bukkit plugins (whatever that is). also android.
minecraft might be big compared to other video games, but it's nothing compared to whole other industries that rely on computer software

>>61363320
github was developed in rails, so technically normies knew about it all along

>>61355606
Trump of /g/

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>>61343552
>not being a JS developer

>>61363306
did you not hear about android, boy?