>Linus Torvalds: 'I no longer feel like I can trust

german autismo engineering strikes again

who cares

>>61303385
Linit released when?

systemd is based

>>61303531
yeah - based on shit devs and retarded coding practices

>>61303546
shut up JEW

>install ubuntu 17.04
>network doesn't work, DNS issue
>its systemd-resolve

>>61303554
not jew, just love having my uptime more than 2 days kek
>>/pol/

>>61303592
> >>/pol/
Newfag alert.

Explain why systemd is bad without resorting to ad hominem attacking Poeterring's character, or resting your explanation at the phrase 'unix philosophy' - if you use the phrase 'unix philosophy', please explain why unix philosophy is important in the context of what systemd fails to provide.

Never seen someone able to do this. Convinced systemd hate is a nice little meme people in the community like to subscribe to for pats on the head from peers who hold baseless opinions on things they don't understand.

File: 200_s.gif (909KB, 294x200px) Image search: [Google]

909KB, 294x200px

>>61303976
Beautiful.

>>61303976
I've actually heard from reliable sources that GNU's not unix anyways.

http://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2015/10/11/0/

>>61303614
phoneposter alert

>>61303976
systemd_thread(n)
>people present many well-thought-out arguments against systemd

systemd_thread(n +1)
>"Okay so I've never seen anyone making good arguments against systemd because systemd haters are le dumb and have no clue and only spread FUD and ad homines... fuck these dumb idiots xDDDD"

Use the archive, nigger. Or be the first to actually say what's good about systemd that isn't "It works for me" or "Mimimi shell scripts"

>>61304179

Huh, looks like you couldn't explain why systemd is bad, huh bud? Weird.

SystemD is eventually going to include a Office suite next update.

>>61304441
we could explain it to you, but would you be able to comprehend and accept reality?

>>61304555
inb4 systemd gets an init system

Change always pisses off the community.

5-10 years when something replaces systemd you'll hear the same shit. Systemd will magically become great in people's mind, why did we ever switch!

>>61303976
A single point of failure
Built in conjunction with NSA
Multiple unresolved/ignored bugs

I don't give a fuck about the Unix philosophy, but the above are just a few layman's concerns

>>61303976
>Unix philosophy
>MAKE ONE THING AND DO IT WELL

Systemd is bad because it has too many dependencies and crash the whole system like windows because it is an ever growing cancer

Could you use SystemD as a attack vector?

>>61304603
Probably.

>>61304594
NSA/6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

>>61304603
Of course. There are no privilege escalation bugs in systemd yet, give it some time. In five or 7 years there will be some bugs as well as unpatched systems, for now most ancient systems do not have systemd yet.

>unix
Make it do one thing and and work easily with others
>systemD
make it do one thing and depend on the whole systemd ecosystem

>>61303976
Systemd is a nice operating system - shame it misses an init system. But maybe they will include it in the next update, together with a graphic server to replace X11 and a new revolutionary centralized way to manage all system configuration, called "registry"

>>61304594
>Built in conjunction with NSA

Proof?

>>61304688
Yes, they should give it an Graphical Design Interface, some sort of user handling library and this library to access X number of abstract hardwares directly.

>>61304688
yeah it could also include automatic system updates, that you could only escape by paching the systemd and recompiling it.

I think systemd should take over mandatory access control next because its too hard to use and they could make it easier.

>>61304839
I think you are a faggot

File: billgateslaughing.jpg (23KB, 600x355px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 600x355px

>>61304688

>>61304839

If you like a username so much why don't you just shit post on reddit?

>>61304848
I'm not.
It would be great, systemd could load a library with your app and there could be something like /etc/systemd/security/appnamehere.mac

>>61304949
Go away faggot

>>61303976
>explain why you don't like thing within the boundaries of some arbitrary framework i came up with in the hopes of leaving you unsuccessful, so that i don't have to deal with issues regarding thing i really like

Seems legit.

>OP literally parses every LKML email looking for Linus drama

You're doing gods work OP
Please post more threads of linus ripping retards new assholes
I collect this stuff

>>61303429
/thread

>>61305124

Seems like you can't explain what's wrong with systemd there little buddy.

>>61305567
>little buddy
Seems like you're mad that I called you on your bullshit.

Derp met with skepticism. Fight skepticism with more derp.

All software written in C/C++ instead of Rust is fundamentally broken beyond repair.

This includes both systemd and the linux kernel.

>>61304839
NT access control is fundamentally better then UNIX.

>>61305731
>Rust
Oh, then Rust is fundamentally broken.

>>61305616

Yes, you got me. I'm very very mad.

Now, how about you explain what's wrong with systemd there little man? Right now it seems like you have no knowledge of the subject. Seems like I was right all along.

>>61304179
>>61304555
>completely and utterly avoids answering the question
>completely and utterly BTFOs himself

>>61306202
Why would I bother? I use systemd and rather like it. This doesn't mean I'm ignorant of its criticisms, and you shouldn't be, either. Of course, you're not. You know how to use Google like everyone else.

Still not sure why you're trying to hide your asshurt behind some arbitrary set of rules meant to be able to dismiss any and all criticisms of systemd. It isn't without flaws, some of them rather glaring.

>>61303385
So when will Linus lose his shit and start writing an init system?

>>61306292

>This doesn't mean I'm ignorant of its criticisms

idk bud looks like you might be from here...

How about you get to work explaining them, eh?

>>61306292

>Its not ME that's stupid, its the QUESTION that's stupid

>>61306372
Why? You're already aware of most, if not all, of them. The issue you're having is that you don't know enough about what you're doing to be able to address those criticisms to someone who actually does know their stuff. Since that's a fight you can't win, you've taken it to /g/ - hoping to be able to successfully argue against people you believe are as ignorant of the subject as you are.

I say keep using systemd. I plan to, at least in the foreseeable future. You're eventually going to bait someone into having the argument you're desperately looking for, but I'm not that anon. No amount of shitposting and weak attempts at reverse psychology are going to change that.

>>61306306
Iirc that is how Git development started, he was bitching about svn and tarballs and cvs and all that

>>61306432
Why do you even respond to shitty old bait that's posted in every systemd thread?

>>61306446
Because it isn't bait. He's not actually trolling. Oh, he'll try to play it off like he's trolling if he eventually ends up losing an argument, but he's not here to troll.

File: 1482391725120.jpg (12KB, 480x640px) Image search: [Google]

12KB, 480x640px

linux has been a rudderless shitheap like this for it's entire life and you open sores laugh at windows users

>>61303976
Wasn't there that root vulnerability where if you had numbers in your username you'd get root privileges, which was reported to high heavens by everyone, but the systemd team and pottering in particular just went "Meh that's not a security vulnerability because you cannot accidentally put numbers in your username" and closed it as feature-not-a-bug and refused to actually fix it.

>>61306473
Windows doesn't even have anything to begin with.
It's just one big blob.

Have cancer? Might as well get AIDs to go with.

>>61306461
It's really just trolling at that point.
There have been countless threads with proper criticism that couldn't be refuted just for the very next thread to have this shit again.

>>61306511
That's what happens when someone likes Thing, and can't accept the fact that the hivemind they're desperately seeking acceptance from doesn't like Thing.

>>61306498
linux is replicating blobs that all attempt to outshit the last guy with poorly coded software

>>61306525
The motivation behind it doesn't change the fact that it's just lazy trolling and should be ignored.

>>61306565
>he knew what i was doing and why
>better try to play it off like i'm someone else and bury the subject

>>61306582
Yes let's give that retard more "(you)"s so he can convince himself he's an "epic troll".

>>61306432

So far you've proved you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject. Instead of proving your knowledge, you're telling me you have it.

You clearly a brainlet trying to come across like you know anything about the subject matter. No amount of trying to talk around the question is going to change that.

You've still provided no explanation. Nobody has.

I get this STRANGE feeling from all of your posts that maybe you're the sort of person who maybe, I don't know... likes to subscribe to ideas for the sole reason of getting pats on the head from peers who hold baseless opinions on things they don't understand?

>>61306665
>So far you've proved you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject.
I wasn't aware I needed to.

>No amount of trying to talk around the question is going to change that.
What question? What's wrong with systemd? I'm not here to answer that. Your Uncle Google already did ages ago, I'm sure.

>likes to subscribe to ideas for the sole reason of getting pats on the head from peers
Sure. That's why I'm a systemd user. Everyone else here absolutely loves it, and we have circlejerk threads about how great it is all the time here on /g/. You should join us.

>>61306693

I'd take the advice of everyone else in the thread and stop posting mate. Seems like you're just having a meltdown now. Time to take a break.

>>61306708
Yeah, I'm obviously teetering on the very edge of sanity. I'll try to reign it in before it's too late.

"Do one thing and do it well"
-- Cheese Is Aitch Christ

To approve of SystemD is to go against the teachings of our LORD

>>61307561
And yet the guy responsible for GNU has stated, multiple times, that he has no use for the Unix Philosophy. Why would you expect anyone else involved in GNU/Linux to follow suit?

>>61307767

Because he's wrong.

>>61307798
That's great and all, but it'd probably be far easier to just migrate to a system that values the Unix Philosophy if that's what you're looking for.

>>61307767
>>61307826
That's because he's not a fucking developer, hasn't been for a long time. His last big project was emacs, and he stepped off that a long time ago. His work on emacs should be a clear indicator that he's a lisp machine guy, who used Unix as the model for GNU because it was hot shit at the time of GNU's inception.

>>61307865
Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that a Bazaar-style system is never going to properly align with your views on the Unix Philosophy, let alone completely embrace it. A migration is probably in order. You're fighting a long, uphill battle you have no chance of winning.

>>61307826

Horses for courses, mate. If it does what I want, I'll keep it until something else works better for me. However, as a programmer whose married and gets laid at least five times a week if I'm asked my opinion then I know for a fact that the unix philosophy leads to tight-ass, elegant code. RMS is after free code, not tight-ass, elegant code.

One last thing, I have Poettering down to follow Hand Reiser into the history books, either as murderer or victim.

>>61303976
B O T N E T
O
T
N
E
T

>>61303429
t.CIA Nigger

>>61307901
>I know for a fact that the unix philosophy leads to tight-ass, elegant code
I agree. I'm just saying that GNU/Linux is never going to embrace this philosophy, least of all in the manner you're probably hoping for.

>>61307900
Just because people want to write shit software doesn't mean it should be tolerated. They should be flamed and mocked.

>>61307976
But that isn't going to get you anywhere. You should be focused on your own computing needs, and make choices based on that. If Gadzooks/Loonix isn't doing what you need, in a way that agrees with you, then leave it behind.

>>61307920

I'm not hoping for linux to embrace the Unix Philosophy. It'd be great if it did, but that's not how FOSS works. If I wanted that, I'd jump to BSD

Haha yeah. I totally get what that means to me...

>>61307997
I do use software that suits my needs, but just because software is suitable enough for enough users, doesn't mean it's good, and we should strive for goodness in all that we do.

>>61306306
This is the real question.

And it makes me want to spend more time trying to grok the kernel code. Sure it's a lot of code, but most of that is drivers for specific hardware and can be safely ignored unless I need to work with that specific hardware...

>>61306306
That might be pretty funny.

THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING WRONG WITH SYSTEMD

what did you expect from an abusive personality like Linus?

>>61307997

Slackware is pretty perfect, imho, and if the systemd infection spreads, I can always move to a bsd.

You say 'move' like its a threat, but sure that could happen very easily.

>>61306436
The linux kernel used to use a version control application called bitkeeper until the dev withdrew the kernel project's right to use it. Since bitkeeper was proprietary and there was no suitable replacements for it in the free software community Linus wrote his own version control software that was like a clone of bitkeeper.

>>61303976
Honestly, I think systemd is bad just because of Poeterring himself and his gang.
Every once in a while a new bug appears and what does he do:
Blame the user.
It's becoming a pattern in systemd development.

File: no-systemd.png (15KB, 135x135px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 135x135px

Can you read?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

tl,dr:


Write programs that do one thing and do it well.
Write programs to work together.
Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface.

Any questions, dumbfuck?

>>61308929
>Write programs that do one thing and do it well
systemd does one thing: manages the userland
>work together
all systemd sub-projects work together
>text streams, universal interface
DBUS is the new universal interface

File: baby-middle-finger.jpg (25KB, 580x441px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 580x441px

>>61303385
BTW, Linass, where the fuck were you while SystemCancer was metastasising?

File: fucking-retarded.gif (92KB, 220x121px) Image search: [Google]

92KB, 220x121px

>>61309063

File: 1498639634322.jpg (21KB, 416x417px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 416x417px

>>61309063

File: neilb.jpg (42KB, 450x600px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 450x600px

>>61308929
"I remember being severely disillusioned by this in my early days. I read some article that explained how a "spell" program can be written to report the spelling errors in a file. It uses 'tr' to split into words, then "sort" and "uniq" to get a word list, then "comm" to find the differences. "cool" I thought. Then I looked at the actual "spell" program on my university's Unix installation. It used a special 'dcomm' (or something like that) which knew about "dictionary ordering" (Which ignores case - sometimes). Suddenly the whole illusion came shattering down. Lots of separate tools only do 90% of the work. To do really complete work, you need real purpose-built tools. "do one thing and do it well" is good for prototypes, not for final products.
The thing that annoys me most about systemd is that I didn't write it first!"

- Neil Brown
http://lwn.net/Articles/576078/

File: abortion-coathanger-little-girl.jpg (73KB, 720x960px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 720x960px

>>61309150

>>61309150
>I read some article

Meme'd by a journalist. Got what he deserves.

I'll >snip< the rest of his bollocks because all of it follows from a faulty premise - that journalists tell the truth.

>>61309271
>I'll >snip< the rest of his bollocks

YOu mean the "bollocks" where he actually got hands on with the application and it's source code and made his judmeent? Keep putting your head deep in that shit scattered sand, pajeet..

>>61309300
Where in that conversation he says he read, touched or got even near the source code? It just says that he never liked the unix philosophy and that he likes that systemd doesn't follows it.

>>61309300
>the application

tr, sort, uniq and comm are four applications, five if you include dcomm. With a script called spell to bind them together.

That you think a scripting cludge === an application suggests you're either unfamiliar with programming, administration, and/or desperate.

>>61303976
Explain why anyone needs systemd besides lazy devs.
>arch: "we adopted systemd purely out of convenience, regardless of merits to the end user"
>etc

>>61303976
http://suckless.org/sucks/systemd

>>61304603
6 million lines of constantly changing code that no-one audits would suggest that there's a huge chance of it being used as an attack vector.

>>61309427
>arch: "we adopted systemd purely out of convenience, regardless of merits to the end user"
Nope that's Debian.

One of the Arch devs (tomegun) works for Red Hat and is one of the original devs working on systemd and he pushed for adopting it.

>>61303555
That's very strange considering that Ubuntu 17.04 uses NetworkManager

>>61304598
>unix
Linux
Is
Not
U
n
i
X
The problem with Linux is there are too many people pushing their philosohies (Stallman, Unix-fags) when Linux was never designed with those philosophies in mind.

it's bloated and unaudited

>>61303385
Fucking finally. Linus "traitor" torvald was being such a pussy saying how systemd was the greatest thing ever up until now.

>>61309644
NetworkManager doesn't care about underlying details. systemd-resolved will be used and fuck up your config.

>>61306306
Who cares? Most of what Linus says is autistic screeching and most of his product is garbage.

>>61309063
Does anything even use dbus anymore? I thought that was a fad.

>>61310532
He never did. He just said he's okay with it.
Linus doesn't give a fuck about anything other than the kernel. If his daughter can print out shit without having to enter a root password, he's happy.

>>61303976
I completely disagree with the fundamental philosophy of systemd which is basically to build some kind of pseudo upper-level kernel (Pottering calls systemd a set of core building blocks for an OS). I don't need nor want that shit in my system. openRC does everything I need and more. systemd can fuck off.

>>61310589
Most importantly: there was precisely 0 reason to not make systemd modular (despite poettering's shilling, it's in no way, shape or form, modular), and 0 reason to even start building systemd from the get go as opposed to publishing a set of standards for these blocks and offering systemd as a reference implementation. The fact they decided to go with ad-hoc all-encompassing engulfing-and-killing systemd is proof positive they had nefarious goals from the very start.

I like systemd.

>>61310674
I like to suck cock but I'm not forcing it on everyone.

>>61309898
>literally a unix clone
>not unix

>>61303555
systemd-resolved is pure unadulterated garbage

>>61308671
>You say 'move' like its a threat
I didn't say "move" at all, nor was I implying any sort of threat. If your current OS isn't working for you, either in design or philosophy, leave it. That's all.

>>61309898
LINus' UniX
what's your point

>>61309898
>>61311020
'Linux' is not an acronym, you fools. 'Linux' is just a play on 'Linus' using an X at the end like old UNIX libraries did.
Besides, the name of the OS is GNU; not Linux.

>>61303976
ok, I'll bite

>mount EFI vars as RW
>people complain that this can brick some computers
>don't change it because there are a handful of applications that are rarely run that may need EFI vars mounted as RW

>I need a special tool to open my fucking log files
>if my log files get corrupted, I'll probably never be able to recover them

>unusually large CVE list

>hey man, fuck interoperability we'll just be the only option for Linux.

File: bug.jpg (43KB, 500x517px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 500x517px

>>61312617
that was kinda my point

>>61307901
>However, as a programmer whose married and gets laid at least five times a week
Oh wow! You had SEX! Congratulations!
Just kidding.
Having sex is literally the most basic, desperate, tragic, hopelessly-void-of-meaning, outrageously obnoxious, troublesome, costly, and downright pointless cry for help that the universe has ever screamed. Wow, you were born as a borderline acceptable member of your species. WOW! INCREDIBLE! You managed to procure a willing (which in evolutionary terms, willing translates roughly to "fucking desperate for at least a few reasons") mate and managed to somehow perform the act of intercourse with her! WOW! This his literally only been taking place for HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF FUCKING YEARS! WOW! Except guess what, you probably wore a condom… which means you failed at submitting yourself to an act which means absolutely nothing. The only thing left to do now is kill yourself.

>>61309063
>dbus
all the freedesktop shit are incomprehensible, abstract messes

the .desktop shit is ridiculous too

Just switched from fedora 25 to Manjaro with openRC. What differences can I expect?

>>61309063
never have i seen anything using dbus work properly, without fail it will fuck up at random and have to be restarted

especially network-manager what trash
>vpn connection failed
>restart network manager
>vpn connection succeeded
>here's some new network profiles you didn't ask for to override the ones you made
>this profile won't save anymore, nobody knows why
>we dnsmasq now

>>61305756
You mean, a no permissions user being able to lock a file so that even admin can't access it, hence why you need to reboot to update lots of software?

>>61308929
You know what the worst part of the Unix philosophy is? Mindless retards who chant a few sentences as though they were Gospel.

There are no absolute rules in good design. Unix has proved over decades that "do one thing and do it well" doesn't work for service management. initscripts is worse than the decomposed contents of your skull. systemd solves a problem that the Unix hierophants were never able to get right. That's why everyone is using it; they're too busy getting shit done instead of preaching sermons from dead religions.

>>61313536
But condoms are from Satan.

>>61314374
>its old therefore it MUST be bad

>>61314542
pretty much.

there is virtually nothing good about most of SUS/POSIX and why GNU generally doesn't suck since they usually go about adding useful shit.

also init scripts are bad. deal with it.

>>61313536
btfo

Discussion here: https://lobste.rs/s/rtgd54/linus_i_no_longer_feel_like_i_can_trust_init

>>61304591
Linus isn't the community, he has gone against the community thousands of times
If Linus calls on you it's because you're fucking up

>>61303976
You, as an end user, don't necessarily need all the bloat and tools that sysadmins may like. systemd packs too much at once for it to be reliable and efficient for what most users need (boot, set up network, login prompt and/or launch DE).

On a side note, Linus' post has nothing to do with systemd directly. He points out how PID 1 should not impose a stack limit that could override the system's default. Whatever PID 1 might be.

>>61316896
It's a clear jab at systemd which got attention in the lkml before for breaking things.

>>61304674
>useradd 1337
>Root access
Good stuff

Can someone explain me the purpose of dbus? Can't you hust read from a file in the memory? Why does one need an entire system to manage that shit? Genuinely curious.

>>61318775
Not how that works.

>>61318775
To be fair, if you can useradd it means you have root access anyway.

>>61303385
Good.
One step closer for the kernel dev to say fuck it and take over the init from the hands of the NSA.

>>61304603
It better be. It was designed and deployed to be exactly that.