Why is this awful thing everywhere?

>>60498343
because it's really good at spying on users and making websites slow

Because it's not awful?

>>60498364
It's actually pretty awful.

Is it possible to use JS as python/ruby? I mean general scripting.

>>60498437
With node.js, yes.
Even C# and Java can do it.

>>60498343
cause actionscript in swf container wasn't cool anymore.
>have css
>have html5
>have javascript
>have canvas

Reality is, for example. Nearly every musician's flash website in the mid 2000's was better than today's best html/javascript site.

Why does RMS hate JavaScript

>>60498343
>muh it was there already so we built a great implementation
at least there's typescript
>tfw no Lua in the brownser

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pajeets are cheap and it's all they know

>>60498443
is node.js fast?

>>60498343
because it runs on all web browsers and makes it easy to modify the dom

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>>60499076
yes

>>60499142
>that memory usage
Hello poojeet.

>>60498343
ez botnet

>>60499142
Pypy is faster than node

>>60498548
RMS hates non-free JavaScript.

>>60498343
because shitty developers proliferate under shitty management, which is all management these days

>>60498343
Because it's not the last decade anymore and JS has gotten good

>>60501195
could be so but theres the right tool for every job and js is not the right tool for document content

any use of js besides ajax calls where necessary or simple ui enhancement is ridiculous. If a page is practically blank when js is disabled, 99% sure its a shit page and otherwise a very niche application

>>60498437
no. enjoy your callback hell and lack of a proper standand library.

also using node modules will drive you crazy. ruby gems were bad, but at least they didn't include hundreds of other one-liner modules.

The most insane thing about it is even you only include one or two deps in your package.json, it will turn up to 300+ after hitting npm install.

>>60501381
>js is not the right tool for document content

Ever heard of these things called "web apps"

The web is more than just a document viewing platform these days, and JS is a solid tool for working with it

>>60501381
this "simple ui enhacement" gets very messy as the project gets complex. this is why people use things like react. and you can still make it so the page works even with js disabled. but that's rarely ever worth the time investment because nobody sane would disable javascript in 2017

>>60501723
manipulating, yes. populating, no.

if you make a newspaper site that loads article text by ajax instead of serverside generation straight into html, im gonna cone over and slap you silly

>>60498371
its not tho.
name something bad about nodejs.
>muh bloated meme
then why in the fuck does nearly every modern language have package managers ?

>>60501806
i mentioned it as a quality indicatir, not a requirement. if a page is blank without js, it means all the content is fetched by js instead of generated into the html serverside and thats just lazy and sluggish (more loadtimes to wait for)

>>60498504
without modern js and html5 70% of all websites currently running would be severe cancer

>>60499218
>what is not using chrome
pls kys nigger

>>60502040
>what is backend rendering

>>60501623
>callback hell
ever heard of promises and await / async ?
>one liner modules
what is --depth=0
>300+
please show me an example nigger

>>60499363
>implying you cant botnet through c# / ruby / php / .NET

>>60498355
build a web app without js / ruby / .NET / php. i fucking dare you

>>60502133
with nodejs? thats fine. this thread is mainly about clientside browser js tho

We're using javascript to serve content to our millions of concurrent users. There's a reason we're sticking with it. Especially async programming is just too easy with JS. Front-end has also gotten a lot better with ES6, and React.

>>60502177
>ever heard of promises and await / async ?
in my fucking script?

>please show me an example nigger
brunch + sass.

>what is --depth=0
>some random list option which has nothing related to complain about retarded nodejs module writers who import ton of other modules which only have one line or ten.

sorry but I think you are fucking retarded.

>>60502250
>in my script
where else ?
>sass.
use cdn's you pleb
>importing one liners
if you use a module that does that, you're the stupid one.

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>>60502085
that depends. if the server loads the data to render everything into html then it obviously takes longer than without needing to load it. if the fat client is done correctly then the user waits about the same amount of time, but what he sees while waiting is an unpopulated page with a nice loading indicator instead of a blank screen.
but yeah, I get what you mean. ironically, the solution is to do server-side "pre-render", which involves running the client-side code on the server, which typically means more javascript, and not less.

>>60502250
>in my fucking script?
what?

>>60502212
>web app
no
>native application that runs on pc/mobile
QT, python + kivy, scheme + lambdanative, java + javafxports, SDL + any langauge that compiles to native library

>>60502177
>ever heard of promises and await / async ?
chaining callbacks to avoid callback hells is not that brilliant though

>>60498742
This. Taking your job yet can't do it as well.

>>60502351
propose something better then.

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>>60502351
its a lot better tho

>>60502403
a way to make functions execute line by line instead of executing everything at the same frigging time

>>60502334
>what?

the context is if you should using js/node as general scripting like ruby/python.

And you tell me to write a ton of promise/await wrapper just for some throwaway scripts?

nodejs by default is fucking unsuitable for this kind of task.

>>60502454
>everything sync instead of concurrency.
are you retarded ?

>>60502476
>what is Promise.promisify

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>>60502212
>web apps

>>60502486
i never said we should drop async completely. i'm just saying having a way to make some parts of code execute line by line wouldn't be too bad. something like;

sync {
    doThis();
    doThat();
}

>>60502311
>if you use a module that does that, you're the stupid one.
guess what? every popular node modules have it, be it babel, brunch/gulp/webpack, lodash, uglify... Even if it isn't on the package.json file, a random dependencies will do. Remember that leftpad disaster?

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>>60502548
but we can tho

>>60502403
other languages do it just fine. erlang does it brilliantly.

>>60502084
>No class support
>Scopes are retardedly broken
>No strong typing
>Overall retarded broken shit such as arrays indexes
>Needing to use anonymous functions because the language scopes are fucked up

Do I need to keep going?

>>60502617
>no class support
http://exploringjs.com/es6/ch_classes.html
>scopes are broken
'use strict'
>no strong typing
this is the only valid thing in your list, this is a js meme
>broken array indexes
what is nodejs
>async functions have nothing to do with function scoping

>>60502696
>>async functions have nothing to do with function scoping
isn't anyway related to
>Needing to use anonymous functions because the language scopes are fucked up
you fucking idiot.

>>60502536
>whats is google
>what is facebook
>what is quora
>what is yelp
>what is air bnb
nigger please

>>60499218
CPU load vs MEM load.
which is worse and why.

>https://www.npmjs.com/package/user-home
>11.5M downloads last month
>content:
> 'use strict';
> module.exports = require('os-homedir')();

and guess what? `os-homdir` is another package which actually had 24 lines of code (which can reduced to 6 if he knows `switch case` and not wasting all of those whitespaces)

Brilliant!

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>>60502861
Nothing wrong with js itself
The people who use it are just braindead themselves for not being able to write this themselves.

>>60502617
everything fixed by a drop-in replacement superset of javascript made by the great bill gates (may he rest in pece)

>>60502861
https://nodejs.org/api/os.html#os_os_homedir

>>60502929
the more popular the technology, the more there will be idiots using it. this is a universal law

>>60502861
>the reason this exists is because it would couse another leftpad clusterfuck if it got removed.
can this community die already ?

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>>60502959
>typescript
>having an any type
its a great superset.
but by including the fucking any keyword, you're still allowing braindead js developers to get around the entire typing system.
we were so fucking close to having this fixed by typescript but then the fucking any keyword had to exist

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Leave JavaScript to me.

>>60503076
Since TS is a superset, all of its type safety must be optional, because, well, JavaScript.

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>>60503549
W A K E M E U P I N S I D E N I G G A

Look OP we made a lot mistakes in the 90s and you are just going to have to live with it.

javascript without v8 is shit
thank god for google

>>60504422
Because v8 is fast? Javascript should not be used for fast things IMO. There are 1000 different tools that are fast and don't suffer from JS' flaws

>>60502431
is it lisp?

>>60502431
you're not passing any variables to the promises to make them look cleaner faggot

promises are almost as messy as callbacks,

and async/await is no better

fuck leaving nodejs for elixir was the best thing I ever did, so fucking comfy now.

>>60505550
you want me to not use language features ?
these things exist to make the code more readable and you're complaining that it does ?
are you really retarded sunny jim ?
and if you think that looks messy, please show me some better code.

>>60505451
?

>>60498742
i thought all the pajeets know was java

>>60506052
pajeets know whatever language the person posting hates

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>>60505550
>he doesnt know what auto currying is.
kys man

>>60505550
yes, because symbol galore is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than readable code. are you even real man ?

>>60498343
Because it runs the fucking Internet now and there is an entire industry of nu-male and Karlie Kloss Koder web "devs" that perpetuate this vicious cycle of bullshit frameworks that do little more than what straight JavaScript + JQuery can already do that companies have picked up because they want to sound relevant and hip too and now we're in this fucking position

>>60506278
looks like someone is either getting bullied, or cant find a job in functional-esotetric-language#6672664 and is now salty. how are you ? you need some help ? that kind of salt could start a business

webdev in general is the cancer

too bad 10 years from now the dom is gonna be what everyone uses for gui and several high level languages for back end coding

>>60498343
>it's expressive
>it's functional-ish
>it works well with all things async out of the box (and we're in the age of real-time, I/O, async shit)
>ES6 made it bearable, Typescript and Node made it good (raw ES5 Javascript is shit, I'll give you that)

>>60502212
I have. I used OCaml
I don't see why any of those would be necessary, although Ruby is rather nice

>>60506349
what do you want ? spend 3000 years building a simple backend in c++ or something ? companies need to deploy good shit quick. and web is a solid platform for doing so. at the company i work at, we released a offline installable version of our webapp and we literally had customers telling us that they did not want to install shit but rather use it right away. thats the strength of web. you dont need to install shit.

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>>60506389
>OCaml
J U S T

>>60498343
An actual answer:

People needed a quick, convenient way to accomplish basic website functionality on the client's side. To paraphrase one of the people that designed it "We needed to make the monkey dance when you moused over it. This is what JavaScript was designed for"

It became the standard on basically every web browser. However, the internet then erupted into enormously bigger magnitudes accomplishing new and interesting things and before we knew it people were making a wide and diverse array of tools and creations that existed on the internet in JavaScript simply because it's all we had.

Fast forward 15 years. Databases are written in JavaScript, JavaScript plugins that compile JavaScript are written in JavaScript, package managers that manage JavaScript plugins are written in JavaScript. Desktop applications are now written in JavaScript via a JavaScript plugin simply because of the reason that there's a huge market for people that want to develop for the desktop but only know JavaScript. You know Slack? Yeah, that's written in JavaScript and it occupies 14% of your CPU when idle.

The most popular and fundamental framework basically just takes JavaScript's abhorrent verbosity and boils down the syntax to a single character and the functions down to a single word for the sake of making it less redundant, and then there are pre-processors that compile to this framework to make it even less redundant.

JavaScript basically stands as a monument to making something before you know what to do with it. I applaud people on their resourcefulness but their resourcefulness is still the equivalent of finding new and creative ways to build automobiles out of Lego.

>>60506435
what is this chart even supposed to show?

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>>60506465
that your type system is lacking i a lot of areas

>>60506226
are you saying that js code is more readable then elixir?

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i cry every night

>>60506529
yes.
thats one of the strengths of js.
its readable as fuck

>>60506548
I thank lord jesus for it everyday because making my gaymen ui without html, css and js would have taken at least 15 years

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>>60506621
can someone post the microsoft guy's convo about windows ui programming ? i think its appropriate right now

>>60506481
I don't think you understand what a type system is

>>60506568
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

let fs = require('fs')
let file = fs.readFileSync('/path/to/file').toString().split('\n');
file = file.filter((l)=> {
    return l.includes('Word')
});

File.read!("/path/to/file")
|> String.split("\n")
|> Enum.filter(&(String.contains?(&1, "Word")))

What's more readable?

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Why is it awful?
Honest question, I'm a programming beginner and I'd like to be less stupid.

>>60507172
It isn't.
Please don't take the people who shit on it in this board seriously.
Its a good language for getting into programming and offers great routes to all kinda of jobs in development. the reason people shit on it, is because base JS (ES5) is rather lacking in areas such as async programming, typing and function scoping. but once you start using ES6, most of those issues go away.

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>>60507143
you're not even trying at this point mate

>>60507143
>stupid sigils everywhere
Nice bait.

>>60507172
Its literal programming cancer. Real programmers use it as last resort for stupid browser tricks. If you want to start with a meme scripting language look at python or Ruby.

>>60507480
Name one advantage python and ruby have over javascript.

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>>60507417
>import from ramda

I lol'd

need to use an external library to make your shit look good.

and why are you using promises? my example was async.

>>60498343
It can't be bad if everybody uses it.

>>60507510
* not async

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>>60507417
>has import name last so IDEs can't autocomplete modules
REALLY FUCKING RUSTLES MY JIMMIES. You'd think SOMEONE would have thought that through. Oh wait, javascript developers and spec designers DON'T THINK

>>60507499
Not starting as a cobbled mess that was created to do mouse overs on web pages. It's like when they tried to bolt on OOP onto perl.

>>60507417
oh and node.js doesn't support imports, so you must be using some transpiling shit on top of all that.

just face is, node sucks dick

>>60507538
what in the fuck are you even on about ?
and
>IDE
please off yourself.
>>60507510
File isnt implemented by default in elixir so that code would never run.
>needing &1 for a fucking contains
are you kidding me ?

>>60507575
Name one programming language feature that python and ruby have over javascript.

>>60507577
>what is node ^6.5.0
http://node.green/

>>60507607
Being shit.

>>60507623
Nice. Maybe mommy will reward you with tendies for completing your first FizzBuzz.

>>60507585
type 'import {', now watch how your autocomplete doesn't know what the fuck to do because it doesn't know where it's trying to import from. It should have been from A import { a, b, c}. The language is littered with little shit like this and you'd think after almost two decades they'd get their shit together

Also, I don't use an ide I use vim

>>60507632
I've already made a FizzBuzz.

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>>60507633
kek
all modern editors can do this

>>60507651
ahahahaha, that's amazing

>>60507585
>File isnt implemented by default in elixir
u wot m8?

>needing &1 for a fucking contains

what's wrong with that?

>>60507608

Using v7.4.0

import fs from 'fs'

(function (exports, require, module, __filename, __dirname) { import fs from 'fs'
                                                              ^^^^^^
SyntaxError: Unexpected token import

>>60507633
syntactically
import { a, b, c } from A
reads and makes way more sense than
A import { a, b, c }

>>60507689
it does not. I mean you could argue disingenuously by saying that it makes more sense when using the words "from" and "import", but you don't need to use those.

use A::B::{C,D,F} is what rust does

>>60502349
Slower than just using js.

>>60507729
not too familiar with rust, so cant really see how the example you provided works. but since JS does not provide a good way of prototype extending or namespacing.this is the best its gonna get.

>>60502740
All tripe that no one /g/ would use.

Node.js would be fine if it had true concurrency. What's the use of a single threaded server programming language. The point of servers is that they can divide workloads.

>>60507786
well yes, because /g/ is a bunch of autistic spasms. but that doesnt take away that those include some of the biggest companies in the world.

>>60507801
Threading is harmful. Just run multiple processes of your server at the same time.

>>60507801
use child processes

>>60507801
>The point of servers is that they can divide workloads.
The point of servers is to serve data

>>60507823
I'll bite, what's harmful?

>>60507633
>not knowing what the module you're importing contains.
and i thought you guys could only complain about using needles modules

>>60507861
Because requests should be served in isolation. Why the fuck do you need to know what some other request is doing at the same time?

>>60507901
>have request that needs to do a ton of number crunching first
>1 server core at full load
>other 23 cores idling

>>60507952
> what are child processes

>>60507952
>what are c++ wrappers

>>60507952
>what are container load balancers
>what are multi-dist-apps
nibber please

>>60507970
Do you just jerk yourself off for knowing that something technological exists?

Oh, please do explain how C++ wrappers are supposed to make multithreading better and how that's even relevant to what he said

>>60507960
>what is shared state

>>60507970
>i'd rather use a non-toy language in the first place

>>60502040
If you think server side rendering is a good idea, ibm has a bridge to sell you

>>60507952
>what is the event loop and asynchronous programming

>>60508016
>Oh, please do explain how C++ wrappers are supposed to make multithreading better
Basically: Just delegate the whole request to C++ code if you need performance

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>>60507900
>Immutability and redux become popular, and with it object spread syntax
>Takes atleast 2 years for google to even realize their Object.assign implementation is 20x slower than it should be
>Takes another 6 months for typescript to even implement object spread despite being esnext
>Redux craze is already over and people want vuejs
javascript development

>>60508016
because you can pipe the task down to a language that can actually do threading well ? why the fuck do you think they allow you to build wrappers so easily with nodejs ? because it realizes it cant do certain things well, and instead of half assidly trying to do it itself, it leaves it to languages and tools better suited for the job. why do you think image libs for node are written in c++ ? because nodeJS itself is shit at doing things that require a metric ton of processing ?

>>60508041
>async calls instead of a simple memory barrier
>performance
pick one

>>60508054
if the the case is that you're jumping between frameworks just because "they're popular". You have no idea what you're doing because you can argue why you chose a framework in the first place. this has nothing to do with the language, this is just people being retarded

>>60502212
GWT even let's you skip the HTML part

>>60508124
>java
pajeet pls out.

>>60507585
>File isnt implemented by default in elixir so that code would never run.
How stupid can a person be?

>>60498364
JS is robust, but still shit.

Like, really garbage shit. The stuff you can do in it shouldn't be allowed.

http://www.jsfuck.com/

>>60508215
What does robust mean?

I can't think of a definition of the word "robust" that would apply to JavaScript

>>60507608
you are like the stupidest person I know.
everyone and his dog know that import doesn't "just work" in nodejs, even in 7 or 8! Instead you have to rename your file extension to .mjs to use `import`.

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I've been playing around with a parsing grammar library called PEG.js

Wrote a simple grammar for a very basic language and set it up to return an AST which I then interpretted using big step semantics to return the resulting enviornment variables and had a pretty good time.

how's your boring ass binary tree in c++ treating you, poojeets? do you faggots even program?

>>60508372
ever heard of lex flex yacc bison?

>>60506481
Use F#, it has more primitive types than OCaml.

>>60508592
and also an unusably bad type system
I don't get why you'd need additional primitive types to make a web app anyways.

>>60508642
I think you meant bad type inference. And OCaml can't add more primitive types because of speed. It only runs in 1 (one) core in fucking 2017.

>>60508690
the object system is broken and doesn't match the rest of the language. despite "not having null" it really does have null, for example. objects can be cast in either direction (unsafe). and so on
OCaml can have more primitive types, there was a compiler fork that added some more. you can also trivially use a syntax rewriter (ppx) to give it first class syntax and then use ocaml-stdint/ocaml-uint/ocaml-integers to add them. it's actually not limited to a single core, but shared memory doesn't work across cores. ocaml-multicore currently works as a temporary fix and at some point will be merged, but the main thing with OCaml is that it's one of the best languages in terms of single-threaded performance at the moment so it fits perfectly for that use case.

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>>60499380
>RMS hates non-free JavaScript.

What the fuck is 'non-free' JavaScript. Every language has been used to write proprietary software.

>>60502349
>QT, python + kivy, scheme + lambdanative, java + javafxports, SDL

All of these are shit, and will probably be slower than using JS + Electron. JS is quite fast for what it is thanks to JIT and its non-blocking nature.

>>60507952
Enjoy your race conditions.

Anything that doesn't use an Actor model like Elixir/Erlang and Rust is going to be shit. And the message passing will probably make it slower than just running multiple instances on the same server.

>>60498343
Javascript is the KING of Github and FLOSS. NPM has the most packages of any main package manager, including Maven and Gems. Javascript is the most widely used language in the industry, technically. And JSON is the data-structure of the internet, as well as its BSON format which is used in all NoSQL databases.

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This pic always gives me a chuckle

>>60508780
>What the fuck is 'non-free' JavaScript
RMS contradicts himself in the same sentence or within minutes literally all the time. "We need laws against non-free software and anti-drm laws". "Government laws are injustices on our freedom".

RMS is a fucking joke, and people take the meme seriously.

>>60508780
>All of these are shit, and will probably be slower than using JS + Electron. JS is quite fast for what it is thanks to JIT and its non-blocking nature.
hooked!!

>>60509120
the good parts used too much pages for grammars and shit.
definitely can be thinner.

>>60505386
yes but theres a limit to how slow u want things to be
taking twice the time python takes is terrible

>>60506621
me too

>>60501381
>If a page is practically blank when js is disabled, 99% sure its a shit page and otherwise a very niche application

Patreon does that half the time to me.

>>60498742
javascript is pajeet kryptonite

>>60509674
note, after inspecting it, looks like it runs on React, and most of the time it either fails to initialize React before it runs, or something else in common.js.

>>60498742
pajeets are not good with javascript
the name confuses them

>>60506439
So much this. But really, this is the problem with the whole damn web. HTML, HTTP, CSS, JavaScript, none of it was properly designed for what we need today. We should deprecate the entire damn web stack and start over.

>>60498343
well es6 actually isnt that bad.
its come a long way from >javascript.
typscript is the right approach. and looking at es7 is clear how its been influenced by it.
its not really slow anymore but webdev suffers from the same thing all programming fields suffer from.
bad devs.
with js its worse though since its so accessible that every idiot can build something that at least "works".
frontend and backend engineers often get lumped together with designers which is a huge problem.

als npm. npm in itself is great.
npm packages not so much. for every useful, tested and working as intended optimzed library on npm you have 60k reimplentations of said library that runs worse and isnt tested or supported. npm packages are a huge clusterfuck. to make npm actually good theyd have to purge all repositories and start from scratch but curated. or if that isnt an option atleast split the packages into official repositories and user repositories. user repositories are for everyone. but official repositories only house packages that are company backed, thouroughly tested and actually active.

There's literally nothing wrong with javascript once you learn it. Just get 'the good parts' and 'the definitive guide'. React, JSX, virtualdom, etc are all pajeet tier junk though.

>>60508235
Maybe flexible is a better word. There is so much you can do it in that should be illegal AF, to the point where your code won't break until it's finished making an easter basket with a sexy-ass bow and millions of fucking eggs before going to hell in it

Type conversion and comparison are a couple of things that come to mind when it comes to stupid-ass shit. Sure, none of this would really be a problem if you knew how program correctly, but we all know that nobody who exclusively uses JavaScript really knows how to write good code...

Fuck me in my Asian pussy sideways so it's upright, m8

>>60511075
It's really not that hard to write some automated tests if you're too much of a retard to keep track of types in your head and know the few intricacies of js. At the end of the day though you're probably working on a web app and not a launcher for a nuclear warhead or a self driving car so does it really matter?

>>60502431
is that monokai?

File: 1485599782537.jpg (248KB, 1231x1774px) Image search: [Google]

248KB, 1231x1774px

>>60502431
Use semicolons.

>>60507810
I'm not the guy you were talking to, and not that it is relevant, but this kind of reminds me of people defending COD. "x sells more than y, therefore x has a better product."

Just because a company is big and makes a lot of money it doesn't mean that the service they provide is optimal, nor does it mean that it is the best. McDonalds is a very big company but their food is absolutely terrible. There are many examples to be made.

I'd understand your argument if we were on /biz/, but at the same time, I'm not sure web-development nor coding in general is the best way to go if you're in a mindset where everything is about money and how big a company is.

What a lot of people are lacking here is common sense.
Javascript is the integral part of Websites and Webapps. It's easy to use and development is rapid and supported widely.
Yes, there are other possibilities with obscure constellations, but just check for a second what people actually doing work are doing. They are using it and the movement goes to using it even more.

Just for a moment, try to think outside of your basement. What do people earning money use.

And think about what you use and how many "projects" you started in your obscure language whuch is "better" and how many of them you actually finished.

Grow up and start actually learning and using what will earn you money.

(Yes yes there are some well payed niche jobs for your shit, but you'll never get that.)

>>60512747
Thy for quality post anon. I second this

>>60512747
just because your emotions tell you that being contrarian is the absolute truth in the universe doesnt make your beliefs true

>>60512747
i bet your diet is lower quality than 7 happymeals per week and i bet your income from webdev is 0

>>60502431
>>60502585
which color scheme is that?

>>60510845
there's currently no better way of building a website that doesn't require reloading the whole thing for every interaction than React

>>60512747
>McDonalds is a very big company but their food is absolutely terrible. There are many examples to be made.
that's not the point. the point is that whatever tools they're using to achieve their goals are proven to work on a large scale. and making "good" food is obviously not one of those goals. their goal is to make food that sells.

>>60515131
You really don't know how to build a web app that can update without reloading without react or one of the other front end frameworks? See, this is why those frameworks are pajeet tier junk.

>>60515937
I do know how to do that and I also know that doing it without an existing frontend framework leads to either a very messy, non-DRY code or to basically making your own frontend framework. Unless of course you're making a fucking todo list, but I'm talking real world applications here.

>>60515937
>>60516099
Also all I wrote is that there's no better way than doing it with React and from that you somehow deduced that I don't know how to it any other way. That's fucking ridiculous.

>>60516099

document.getElementById("#id").innerHtml = 'new text';

Wow so hard neck yourself.

>>60516194
>>>g/wdg/

>>60516099
No, shitty programmers write shitty programs. Using an existing frontend framework leads to very messy non-dry code or basically making your own second frontend framework to augment the first due to the fact that you're hammering your business logic into a predefined form, rather than letting your application evolve around your business logic. If you're lousy at software design/architecture then I can see how a framework could help more than get in your way, but you should use that as motivation for getting better rather than just giving up.

>>60516194
That doesn't even work lmao wtf did you do you don't need the # nigga shiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

>>60516194
That doesn't scale at all.

>>60516229
>Using an existing frontend framework leads to very messy non-dry code or basically making your own second frontend framework to augment the first due to the fact that you're hammering your business logic into a predefined form, rather than letting your application evolve around your business logic.
But React is just for the view layer, and Mobx/Redux is just for state management. I'm not hammering my business logic into a predefined anything.

>>60516247
I'm not a web dev cuck I spent 1 minute looking this shit up, and I'm already ahead because I don't need to use a 2mb library to update some text

>>60516229
You really shouldn't write monolithic programs like that. Your business logic layer should be separated from your gui layer.

Also while react reloads every time the state changes it doesn't mean that it rerenders everything every time.

>>60516280
Oh, so you just have no idea what you're talking about. Makes sense now.

>>60516279
html/dom is for the view layer. for state management you have plenty of options, but none of them require a framework or a library. maybe a polyfil, if that. What you're advocating is seriously over engineered crap either because you don't know any better or for the sake of intellectual masturbation. But either way you look like a retard and no one likes to use your cancerous slow ass websites.

>but it webscales and it renders 20fps on 8 cores and 32gbs ram!

You know what sucks worse than reloading the page on every click? Clicking a link and it not doing anything because the actual backend is asleep or dead or who knows what because 99% of engineering efforts have been diverted to making your shitty ass javascript actually work. But it scales!

>>60516194
>/g/ thinks this is all it takes to make a large-scale web application like AirBnB
bravo

>>60516546
If the actual backend is asleep clicking a link won't do jack shit either genius.

The real reason: Years ago, browser makers had a sort of competition of who could run JS faster (the benchmark they used was SunSpider). The end result was that all major browsers could run JS faster than any other equivalent scripting language, so now we're stuck with it.

>>60516427
You seem to have a real hard-on for reinventing the wheel. React makes it easy to split the application into small components and to make sure that the html is consistent with the application state. You could do all that manually, but it's more tedious and error-prone.
And the state management libraries I mentioned really aren't over-engineered. One could reimplement them in one night, but there's no good reason to most of the time.

>>60516577
>too stupid to understand my point
the backend wouldn't be asleep if you didn't need twice as many front end engineers as back end engineers. second, without javascript there would be a notification that the request timed out. when building a SPA with most frameworks like react, most people don't think to check for network connection or error check if the request was successful, because the people that would think about that don't need a framework or library for dom manipulation or state management. We're repeating the era where there were rails-only devs and ruby programmers. the rails only devs only knew rails, the ruby programmers knew ruby so they knew rails by default. The only difference is that rails didn't exist to only re-implement half of ruby just to make it easier for people with half their head shaved to use.

no reason to use a framework like react over plain javascript

>but it makes my code more modular
only if you write poor code. using a framework will help you a small amount here. however if you truly cared about modular code you'd avoid anything that pushes a paradigm shift. so plain js wins here.

>but performance
if you cared about performance you'd use plain js.

>but it scales
that has zero dependence on using anything like react/vue over plain js.

>>60517199
>however if you truly cared about modular code you'd avoid anything that pushes a paradigm shift. so plain js wins here.
what the fuck does that even mean

>that has zero dependence on using anything like react/vue over plain js.
it does though. code consisting of a shitload of events and document.getElementById.innerHtml's is bound to get really messy really fast unless you build an abstraction over that (which would mean remaking vue or react)

>>60517199
Forgot

>speed of development
A good framework will win here but you forgo modularity and your codebase rots into legacy code before you can find a new job.

>>60517398
It's only as messy as you make it anon. If you follow good programming practices and have a solid understanding of js then it's quite easy. It's actually less messy because you have 1 less abstraction and 1 less dependency. If you work on a team and they're shitty programmers that make writing good code impossible then that sucks but adopting a framework to make up for that doesn't help anyone. You're just going to have a turd wrapped in gift wrap.

>>60517621
I don't have 1 less abstraction because in that case the abstraction is required to make the architecture not shit. Solid understanding of the language has nothing to do with this, because it's not a matter of implementation.

>>60502738
let and const, fuckboi.

>>60517649
>the abstraction is required to make the architecture not shit
That speaks more about you then it does about react or javascript. Also if you don't think a good understanding of js is necessary to architect good js software then I don't know what to tell you, you're helpless.

Websockets > Java EE message system

XML > JSON

>>60518244
>That speaks more about you then it does about react or javascript.
No, this is a universal truth. Abstraction is required to make complex systems more manageable.

>Also if you don't think a good understanding of js is necessary to architect good js software then I don't know what to tell you, you're helpless.
I didn't say that. Good understanding of a language is necessary but it won't help you with solving architectural problems without tools a person on 4chan said shouldn't be used.

>>60518355
>Websockets > Java EE message system
these are not alternatives

>XML > JSON
depends on the usecase

>>60518661
>Abstraction is required to make complex systems more manageable.
yes but theres a limit. you don't just keep adding abstractions magically making your code simpler or more manageable. doesn't work that way. at some point it starts to become less manageable and complex and that is where we are we are now with react/modern js.

You can tell who actually worked on big webapps and who has only made small scripts. It's like when you ask what's the best IDE, script kiddies always mention a text editor.

>>60522601
yep Linux is such a script kiddie!