Problems with the programming community?

Commercial, closed software

The growing acceptance of proprietary software and SaaS

SJWs

>>60016838
Freetards.

>>60016838
-javascript being used for things it was never intended to
-""""""""coders""""""""""""" with all they faggotry and incompetence (note "coders" not "programmers")
-programmers buying into memes like javascript frameworks, meme languages, meme designs like flat
-politics (SJWs, sexist/racist shit like gender quotas or skin-color quotas, patent trolling etc)
-big companies baiting idiots into working for them FOR FREE with BSD/Apache2.0 licenses like android, llvm etc
-faggots like this one: >>60017001

>>60017028
found the free faggot tard

>>60016838
SaaS

Frameworks

People using Frameworks with poor understanding of the underlying language/how to actually write a solid computer program

Indians

Karli Kloss Koderzzzzzz

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Non GPL licensed code

>>60016838
Web"apps"

"native" apps which are just web brrowser + javascript bundled together

shitload of frameworks that mostly bring bloat

Lives are too short for the required amount of knowledge to be obtained

SJWS

Programmers are very bad with people in general. Arrogance happens a lot. It is a shame to see such an illogical behavior from a "logical" field.

>>60016838
either pajeet or people pushing their politics on it

Replacing mature code with "innovative" new versions that break what used to work and doesn't do the "new" features at all.

See: Everything for the last 5-10 years.

>>60016838

social justice and the academic establishment

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>>60016838
-Elitism

-Trend hopping to $next_big_thing without a metrics-driven decision

-SJWs distracting people from real engineering problems to submit a pull request against "problematic master/slave wording"

-Re-inventing the wheel- if people would improve their current projects rather than abandoning them for new ones we might have robust software, but this is ok when it's absolutely necessary

-Low barrier to entry to certain subsets of the industry (windows admins, webdevs, etc) means that it can be difficult to separate yourself from the noise

-Interviewing: no company does this well, not even google/fb/amazon/etc


The javascript community is the catalyst in programming demise, exhibiting many of these problems. It's elitist, not because of merit, but because they think they have THE answer. It is the epitome of trend-hopping with a new framework every week. Because it has a low barrier to entry, it has a ton of SJWs and it's hard to separate yourself from the noise.

code monkeys
code monkeys who think using the word coder is bad (>>60017028)
"it works on my machine" syndrome (= non portable code)
it works, so I don't need to improve it
C is old language and should not be used or taught
recursion is more obscure than a while loop

Misogyny. We need to get more people that aren't 20 something white males interested in programming.

SJWs and code monkeys

>>60017367
>recursion is more obscure than a while loop
hmm sure thing kid
Transverse a binary tree in 5 lines using a while loop.

Maybe not the biggest problem, but obsessing over little details. Spending 3 hours figuring out whether to use underscores or camel case, and then pulling overtime and feeling like a hard worker because for some reason the job didn't get done in 8 hours.

>>60016880
SaaS isn't *that* bad
Lets be honest cloud based computing ain't going anywhere anytime soon

>>60016838
the web as we know it needs to fucking stop. like HTTP\HTML are doing shit they were never intended, it's become long in the tooth and nobody can stop it

I hate the overwhelming reliance of Electron, while i see it's purpose, some apps really don't justify it.

I hate seeing people say "Well computers are powerful enough now so fuck it" Now i'm not saying autistically microoptimize but i mean you can take some smarter steps in development without making a simple app be so resource intensive

Most software education is a fucking joke, i think i taught this one kid more helping him with his HW than his class... Where i come from they teach antiquated ASP.net (not even like the new shit or MVC or literally any fairly decent web paradigm...

Developers that are reliant on stack
Developers that are heavily reliant on libraries (see NPM memes)
Developers are kinda retarded when it comes to UI, Documentation, and people skills.

>>60017028
Pretty much only agree with the JS and Politics thing. There's an overabundance of political autism and i hate it. Luckily i work in normal-people landia where mosty companies care about people that get shit done, and not shit like skin and gender...

>tfw don't work in Commiefornia
>tfw my job and jobs around me are not cucc'd
>tfw comfy job with comfy money in comfy ohio

>>60017421
Sorry, I didn't agree with that I was quoting code monkeys. My fault.

>>60017426
your story would be far more believable with microoptimizations >Do i do it like x or like y

ANITHING THAT WEB BASED SOMETHING, HOLY SHIT LE TIT DIE ALREADY
ALL CAPS BECAUSE FUCK WEB, WHY USE SLOWASS SHITTY WEB TECHNOLOGIES WHEN YOU CAN USE NATIVE SHIT
THE ONLY REDEEMING WEB SHIT IS CSS AND MOST PEOPLE DONT KNOW HOW TO GET THE MOST OF IT

>>60017454
Sorry for misunderstanding you and *autistic screeching* at you.

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>>60016838
Anything I don't like.

Easily Indians.

easily

I want to program. It is fun, but when I need a break from it, I want to go for a walk and let my mind wander and recharge.
I see too many very obese or thin people around me.
Oh, and just because my boss wants to get home later because his life is nothing worth of value, it doesn't mean mine is, too.
I want to lift, visit some friends, wash my clothes AT HOME and not in a mental and maybe even literal shithole clothed in fancy job advertising.
And then this fucking scream matches which language is the better one, why you are a faggot for using another OS than theirs...
Like, get a live nigga.
Or make one

Why web? Because it is the most portable. Native code means writing a different app for every platform.

>>60017537
I though getting a programming job was going to be one hell of a fun ride having to solve problems every day and getting paid for it, now im super burned out, everything has become trivial and the days are blurring eachother, not sure how much i can resist this. I used to develop a shitton of apps and little games in my free time and now thats gone

bad programmers
people who think they can get good without being born with talent
lack of competitiveness

>>60016838
Sexism and misogyny

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>>60017626
Think about this for a second.

What is natural about programming?

What is natural or instinctual about these abstract thoughts?

>>60017694
not that guy but, even if they are abstract thoughts about the implementation of something, we are still human and will naturally try to imitate the real thing, thats why OOP is a thing

Rewriting language functions because of unwillingness to learn how to use them.

Wrapping low level APIs or already wrapped functional libraries with wrappers.

Web languages, including SQL

Macros and preprocessors

>>60016838
>What do you feel are the biggest problems with the programming community at large?
The smugness for possessing a skill that's neither particularly hard to master (very much comparable to learning a foreign language) nor of much use outside of work. Not to mention that it's actually kinda boring to most people.

Freetards who complain about "le SJW boogeyman" but don't actually have a programming job.

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>>60017797
>Web languages, including SQL

>>60017421
Recursion is more obscure than a while (or for) loop in most cases. When you have a divide and conquer or any other kind of tree tructure, then it's ok, but for most simple cases it's just overthinking things. Also using recursion creates new data implicitly (on each call), wich is more obscure than doing so explicitly on a iterative loop. Doing it on less lines of code doesn't mean it's less obsucure, see haskshell.

>>60017323
We don't need your Fortran on critical operations anymore grandpa

>>60017914
Here we are. The typical code monkey.
Hey >>60017482 we got one.

>>60017932
My arguments still hold.

>>60017956
No. TCO is a thing filthy code monkey. STFU, you're just an ignorant code monkey.

>>60017365
This

>>60017833
It's actually worse for them. Open source communities let this shit happen. I work at one of the big 4 in tech and no one ever talks about feminism they just do their work because they don't want to get canned before their stock vests. In open source the reason you do it is for the love of software unless you are sponsored by a company, so eroding your community with SJW bullshit is disheartening. They are right to complain.

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>>60017121
>non stealable code

>>60017694
that picture is very pretty

software will always suck because people suck it's as simple as that. in little autistic groups people can agree and cooperate but the world at large will never have one OS, one file format, one anything that's universally compatible because everything is made to gimp along with code from half a century ago.

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>>60017797
>macros and preprocessors

Kill yourself

>>60017973
If you ever had to write a recursive program in assembly, you would never again use it in abstract languages.

>>60017932
Recursion is nice when your algorithm either only needs O(1) auxiliary space, or if it can naturally be described by pushing into or popping from a stack.

If the data structures you operate on are a bit more complicated, it can quickly become much harder to read.

For example, a DFS is much shorter to write with recursion, but a BFS is better written iteratively imho.

I've been annoyed by this for a while and I've experimented with generalizations of stack calls using macros that desugar generalized "tail calls" marked with a special keyword into iterative code, where the calls are pushed into some priority queue which schedules the order in which they are executed, but that only works in languages with decent macro support and it's not widely adopted.

>>60018101
WTF are you talking about. Recursion is before the TCO pass. I won't do such a thing in asm.

Please stop doing code monkey things please. You lost, you lost.

>>60018124
I hope you're not >>60017956. In any case the same for you. STFU code monkey.

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>>60016838
Pajeets

People referring to themselves as software "engineers" and actually insisting on it (I won't bitch if someone calls me that but I'm a programmer nothing more nothing less)

IT/software "consultants"

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>>60018034
(You) are very pretty.

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>>60018190
T-Thanks

>>60018139
Lol. Try writing an recursive BFS with no extra overhead compared to the iterative version.

I'm a big fan of functional programming. But when I have to search through a grid mesh efficiently, I don't use recursion, because I know I'll be pushing into and out of queues and heaps a lot.

Honestly?

The startling lack of self-knowledge or insight into one's own behaviors.

We even have a word for it: anti-pattern, and yet we still keep making the same mistakes that were being made 50 years ago. The unproductiveness is stunning.

While we're still advancing, unless we somehow learn how to improve ourselves (the human aspect of programming) and our organizing and our organizations, we're going to hit a wall (if we haven't already).

>>60017973
To generate fibonaci numbers you can do it both in recursive and iterative ways. Leaving the performance cost aside (wich is an order of magnitede greater for the recursive solution), the recursive solution has less lines of code and reasambles more to the mathematical definition. However for the recursive solution you fill stack with data each time you do a call, and you do aprox 2^n calls. So that's a bunch of wasted memory and wated performance. With the iterative solution you know exactly how many memory you're using, and that's becouse it's less obsure, becouse you declare everything you use and you know exactly how many times something will be executed (you literaly specify it on for loop).

I personally use both, and find both useful for diferent kind of problems. But this whole trend of "recursive is better", "functional is better", "OOP is shit" annoyes me. If you want to do a simple search, a for x in will always be better than a T(n-1) recursion, even with TCO.

>>60018139
Kek, good to know you are a LARPer. You obviously don't know how a compiler works

People without formal mathematical education up to graduate level.

>>60018337
Some parts are okay. Large parts are shit though.

>>60018237
SHow me your code I will rewrite it with recursion and you will STFU little filthy code monkey.

>>60016838
the programming community itself
kill yourselves, fucking memer autists

>>60018378
Why would he? You don't understand assembly, it makes no sense teaching you just to prove you are wrong.

>>60018430
The level of code monkeys is fucking high here. I specifically told that I won't use recursion in asm. >>60018139

>>60018378
All right. Implement Djkstra's algorithm with a provable worst case memory complexity of sqrt(V) when applied to a square lattice with a bounded number of patches removed.

People thinking all this matters. As soon as you bring politics into programming, which this entire thread is about, you become what the normies want you to be: time wasters.

>>60018524
Show me your code I will rewrite it with recursion and you will shut the fuck up.

I feel you /g/.
I want to get better.
What book can you recommend be to learn to write better,optimized programs and to fully understand and use all well known algorithms?

>>60018545
Becouse opening wikipedia is too hard right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra%27s_algorithm

>>60018572
I won't do effort to prove thing to code monkeys. SO code monkeys provide a for loop alg and I rewrite it with tail call optimization to enlighten the code monkeys. I do not need to be enlighten, you need.

>>60018557
this

Provide a solution to how get better /g/. Lets do it.

>>60017456
Yeah, you are right. Similar discussions of how to optimize a utility that will get used by 3 people so their data loads 50ms faster. I enjoy that honestly but I can see I have a fucking job to do.

>>60016838
threads about problems with the programming community at large

>>60016838
-Copy/paste mentality.
-Reliance on other people's code.
-Brute force instead of efficiency.
-Lack of "ability certification". Doctors cannot call themselves doctors without a cert, but any retard can enrol in a 2-week "coding" course.

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I was going to write a funny post but I couldn't think of it.

well see ya

>>60017378
Google is more Asian than white lmao like check your Asian privilege

>>60018589
The pseudocode is on the wikipedia, translating psudocode to an actual language is what code monkeys do (by the way, you have not specified the language).
And I think everyone here, well at least I (the great codemonkey you talk about) is capable of tranlating any iterative algorithm to recursive and viceversa. This whole thing is not about it being possible, it's about being better, and more accurately about being more explicit (less obfuscated), wich in general the iterative solution wins at that.

>>60018655
>wich in general the iterative solution wins at that.
spoke the code monkey

>>60018677
Prove me wrong.
>Protip: You can't.

>>60017441
>I hate seeing people say "Well computers are powerful enough now so fuck it"

So much this. This is the core problem to the current state of programming. SaaS, Frameworks, all the bloat all stems from this logic.

We should be making an effort to refine. Instead we've let every retard into the profession and we just have bloated hipster bullshit designed by idiots who just want more fucking lingo to throw around.

>>60018693
It's easy. The majority of developers think that iterative code is more readable than recursive code.

>>60018716
> I can't prove something so let's use fake statistics so that I don't look like I lost.
Try politics, you may have better luck there.

>>60016838
faggots who use js for everything
faggots who hate php, the greatest language for web dev
faggots

>>60018760
I gave up on you anon.

Programmers who reinvent square wheels.

Half of the community is autists
This other half is SJWs

Everyone thinking they are smarter than everyone else thus feeling like they don't need to write clean and documented code.

Also for /g/ only the idea that everything should be written in C and everything higher than Java is for sjws only

>>60018826
>This other half is SJWs
this one gets me the most. I never realized that people that are suppose to be the logical ones are actually more white knightey. Then when I realize who are usually programmers, it makes sense.

>>60016838
Shitloads of blogposts with MACHINE LEARNING IS HARD! SOFTWARE DESIGN IS HARD! TIME ESTIMATION IS HARD! CONCURRENCY IS HARD!

We get it, you software niggers, your field is the most complicated discipline ever and mathematics, civil, electronic and mechatronic engineering are the easiest fields ever and have no right to complain about anything.

Shut the fuck up you whiny babies.

>>60017165
>compile to objective c and and java
>uses native components
>not native
Ok

>>60018873
SHITPOSTIING IS HAARD!!

>>60017421
template <class Functor>
void traverseBinaryTree (const Tree& tree, Functor& functor)
{
std::stack<Node*> stack;
stack.push (tree.top());
while (!stack.empty())
{
Node* nextElem = stack.top();
stack.pop();
functor(nextElemen->data);
stack.push(nextElem->left);
stack.push(nextElem->right)
}
}

Here's 8 lines. The extra lines just make it a bit clearer to see what's going on.

>>60016838
It's no longer a niche field for dedicated experts.

> (({#define ME pajeet}))
> Highschool classes teaching java to normies
>They get to college and still don't know how to write a program.
>They graduate and don't know how to multiply by 2 using bit shifts.
>But it's cool because their trustfunded uni landed them an internship at a decent company.
>Making 50k a year and still learning fundamentals of programming

>>60019101
>They graduate and don't know how to multiply by 2 using bit shifts.
I didnt know how to either despite knowing how to use bit flags, but that's because I never saw a need for it until I had to optimize a program's cpu processes for a shittier hardware, and bit multiplication happened to give me a 30% processing speed increase.

>>60018873
I'm in a math & computer science major. I can say that software engineering is a much harder thing than doing Math is.

In Math, you have a pen, a pad of paper, and a textbook with theorems and definitions. Memorize, exercises, apply to new questions, repeat, BANG you now have a deep, intuitive understanding of the topic. Next topic please.

Computer Science is much more difficult because the pen and paper and textbook are replaced with a machine that has many detailed layers of software. You pick one to work on, but soon enough things get to the point where you have to poke into the other layers, but you still don't entirely understand the first. It's like learning math topics, but to learn integral calculus you need to know abstract algebra.

This is a bit of a whiny post but I do think that software engineering is much more challenging (and interesting) than the typical academic fields. A final point would be that it's infinitely useful, where most other fields, even engineering fields, have plateaued IMO

>>60019136
If you think math is easy and doesn't require learning lots and lots of theory, take a look at the proof of any big long-standing conjecture that has been solved in the last half-century.

They often involve an ungodly ammount of theory from multiple different branches of mathematics.

>>60019339
Math plateaus after learning the fundamentals. Everything else just becomes number crunching and theorizing. When a field enters the theorem court of its life, it's mostly just standing on its last legs. The ungodly amount of theory you talk about is less about the complexity and more to do with the common people who pursue math being autists.

>>60019056
You replaced a function call stack with... just stack.

>>60018001
proprietary softwares steal codes from your muh non stealable gpl projects. enjoy being cucked

>>60016838
Gendered language, mansplaining and manterrupting.

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>>60016922
This might just sound like a vacuous insult but it has merit.

The programming community is disproportionate towards beta males, and beta males are easy to manipulate.

You wonder why SJW types go after communities like gamers and programmers because of "misogyny" and not things like sporting events? It's because they think they're easy to manipulate. And they're right.

Companies like Google that used to have intelligent ideals about technology and the developing world are now just banning strings of text that aren't politically correct under some vague notion of "harassment" that none of them would be able to justify. YouTube is crashing and burning as we speak.

>>60019685

>sjws don't manipulate sports

you clearly don't watch sports

>>60019685
Pussy ruins most industries.

Ignore pussy. Acquire infinite knowledge and money. Embrace pussy. Knowledge sinks and money disappears.

>>60016838
gender pay gap

>>60019867
The pay gap thing, the industry mostly ignores that one cause it's logically to reward those who actually know how to work.

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>>60019685
>You wonder why SJW types go after communities like gamers and programmers because of "misogyny" and not things like sporting events
this every single time, i hear or see reaterted SJW with feminist ideals and tumblr speech. I seen those fat, ugly gamymers, some self sorry wihite cis male, some guy who thing the sjw is goddess.
>>60019828
not really the biggest problem is the lack of any standards, women are ok when there are some women to balance it or where are older guys who doesn't give a fuck about pussy. In it most of guys are young and there is lack of women to balance this shit and fight with sjw.
Pic rel is one of the worst human scum that played women card and endangered large part by false blood tests,

Employers.
And our co-workers, srs.

No, not EVERYONE wants to take their work home, neither do we not want to make our workplace to our home.
No, I don't care about the bonuses.
I do not care about your goddamn need to have us work 12 hours a day.
I have a life you know?
I wanna see my kids face while their eyes are still open.
I want to have enough energy that I can fuck my wife while we are at it,

Maybe you should have told us earlier?
Maybe you should have talked about it with us?
Maybe you should, dunno, communicate your concerns with us?
Maybe you shouldn't have constantly employed people who make your products worse and then let us undo their mistakes AND add features THEY were actually paid to do?

No Co-worker, I do not want to drink some stuff.
Yes, I am stretching my body and working out to prevent shortened muscles while my code is compiling.
No, I do not care about your E-Dick
No, I don'T want sweets, neither coffee.
I don'T want to eat the same greasy shit
YES, I like to eat Food that has nutritional value
YES, I prefer to drink water or unsweetened tea instead of Fizz and Coke.
No, there is no one perfect way to code, we code in what suits best.

All I want to do is rape, gore and kill them all so I can do my work in peace and then actually get home and have the power to hug and plow my wife's holes until we lie on a sweaty puddle after our kids are asleep.

>>60016838
1) Most everyone is annoying af and judgmental towards one another and everyone is like climbing for dollars, it's not about programming fun stuff and working together, learning new stuff, it's about making each other feel like assholes every chance possible and trying to push and shove everyone out of your way towards a career. I'm used to it by now but it just seems so unnecessary. 2) Tutorials and documentation are shit. They either leap over extremely complex topics using unexplained buzzwords without unpacking the topic itself or warning the viewer that they should know about x,y and z before the article/video/documentation will make any sense or go speaking/writing to the viewer as if they were retarded (watch any video by treehouse for an example). 3) Icebreakers and bad jokes. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this but these conferences where they tell these ice breakers and bad jokes are cringe worthy but they are a waste of time and usually make me want to punch my computer screen. 4) The W3C and browser makers and basically every decision they have made makes no fucking sense sometimes I feel like they are a group of sadists who want to drive developers insane. That's all I can think of atm.

>>60020066
Sounds like you're either in a bad work environment or Japan

>>60017441
>cloud based computing
>the pc in the other room

They're too weak and let Bros with MBAs bully them out of high wages and outsourcing

>>60019867
I'm still waiting for the gender output equivalence metrics before considering this. Hours spent is not a number I care about.

>I suspect I'll be waiting a while
>this bait

>>60016838
Lennart Poettering

Elitism. C# vs Java, C++ vs js, C vs asm, haskell vs the whole world. So much talent wasted on reinventing the wheel for absolutely useless technologies that will never be as good as something that was in development by huge teams and wealthy companies for decades. So much energy wasted on proving that the tool you use is The Right Way. No fun allowed ideologies. People literally hating you for using a different language.
I personally know that there is no Right Way as you can, and should, for fun and profit, follow every way there is. I have done MAD shit on C++ for fun, I have done huge projects in C\C++, I have finished an impossible project in assembly, I played with ML in python, I wrote a huge web app on python, I did fullstack web development on node+jquery/angular/react for living, including all the HTML\CSS, I made a few unsuccessful games on Unity, I have written native Android apps, I successfully participated in a project on Erlang after reading a book on Erlang. I love lodash in js, linq in C#, enums in Java, actor model and practical approach to functional programming in Erlang, documentation for Qt, python itself, and there is no thing more beautiful than a clean, modern-style self-documenting C++ code. I am a programmer, I don't give a fuck what to program in. You should give no fucks, too. Choose the tools that suit you best for your own projects, learn the tools that are objectively most demanded and that you're interested in to earn money, familiarize yourself with everything that happens around you for fun and professional growth, then shut the fuck up and do your goddamn job, you, general-purpose software engineer.

>>60016838
The hardon for mobile phones

>>60019129
Theres never really a need for it except on legacy hardware where you don't have a good compiler. But bit operators are a fundamental every programmer should know. Bit vectors will always be relevant.

>>60019537
Any recursion-based algorithm can be rewritten with a stack in place of the call stack.

>>60022158
But that approach has no benefits over recursion apart from not having a recursion. Why not recurse, then, and spare a few lines?

>>60022250
Stack size is limited.

If you need to do process a lot of elements it might not be large enough for your task.

Also, the explicit stack is a bit easier to test with unit tests, in some cases.

>>60016838
Elitism and normies

>>60016838
>What do you feel are the biggest problems with the programming community at large?
The most problem is relaxed stanrards and inherent absence of provability of correctness of software.

Also, commercial competition is one of the worst enemies of good software.

>>60016838
poo in loos

>>60022407
>inherent absence of provability of correctness of software
? You can prove your software if you want.

>>60022421
No I can't, even C++ standard is not proven to be correct let compiler alone. Pony language is an example of what I can relate to.

Egos the size of planets

>>60016838
bup

>>60017441
>the web as we know it needs to fucking stop. like HTTP\HTML are doing shit they were never intended, it's become long in the tooth and nobody can stop it
HTML I agree, but HTTP is a generic, stateless protocol, as its RFC states. I think REST is a really simple and good architecture for a lot of applications.

>>60017887
sql is shit, another scripting language like c# would take over the web if linux was abandoned and should

>>60018053
even nasa doesnt like those things, and nasa is antiquated

>>60016838
This thread

>>60016838

People thinking they know shit because they attended to some kode camp.

they're all marxist feggits

>>60017626
>people who think they can get good without being born with talent

Even if you're not born a genius, there's no reason not to try to improve yourself.

>lack of competitiveness

Have you been living under a rock? The world is competitive has hell.