vim

>>59809468
(If anyone is wondering what I meant by "another shot" I used it for months in the past, but I basically just bound everything so it behaved like a regular text editor as much as possible through NERDtree/tab pages abuse).

>>59809468
Use emacs

>>59809534
Is it actually any better?

>>59809575
It comes down to personal preference really, I suggest you give it a try or simply switch to a different one altogether.

>>59809468
>He actually takes advice from NEETs on /g/
I've been working as a Software Engineer for 5 years and trust me OP, fully integrated IDE's are the way to go. Emacs are a meme.

>>59809609
If I started getting into IDE features it lacks... Oh boy... Getting good C++ autocomplete/error reporting is an ordeal.

>>59809468
I'm a (neo)vim user and I don't use h/j/k/l, arrow keys are fine.
The greatest distinctive features of vim are modal editing, movement operators, and registers.

The bad "features" of vim are it's user base of 80 years old grandpas who will tell you shit like "use h/j/k/l" or "don't use your mouse" or "the default config of vim is fine".

Neovim brings async plugins, sane defaults, and an embedded terminal. Maybe you should try it.

I still have problems setting up semantic completion but maybe it's just me.

>>59809609
>>59809519
>>59809575
>>59809468

Literally don't fucking use vim then if you're gonna bitch about how it's for "NEET"s just because you can't take the time to read a book or tutorial. There are even GAMES online that teach you braindead normalfags how to use it yet you people still bitch like a motherfucker. I use it every day for work and nobody has a fucking issue. I can type code several times faster than I normally would just because I took the time out of my day to actually learn something without it being hammered and crammed into my brain for some arbitrary school/college exam.

But sure. You think it's for NEETs and painfully slow? Don't use it then. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature will just think you're a dumbass, is all. At least take the time to learn Emacs so you can maybe PRETEND to be superior

>>59809754
For full disclosure I don't use vim for everything, mostly editing remote server files, quick editing, git commits, and batch editing.

I use Jet Brains IDE for python and nodejs with a vim style editing plugin.

>>59809754
I'm using neovim currently, it could be placebo but it seems like I'm having fewer instances of totally inexplicable bullshit than I did back when I used gvim.

>>59809761
>I took the time out of my day to actually learn something
What do you think I'm trying to do? I'm asking this shit precisely because you idiots insist that, if you only learn it, it's the best.

...While we're in the presence of a Vim master such as yourself, care to answer some of my questions? Why don't you enlighten us as to how it's supposed to be used?

why wouldn't this compile?

int main(int argc,char **argv)
{
  *(argv++)++;
}

>>59809851
Wrong thread.

>>59809868
just say you don't know. This website is anonymous website not a fucking reddit follow sjw rules specific post for specific thread.

>>59809754
>I'm a (neo)vim user and I don't use h/j/k/l, arrow keys are fine.
hjkl is really the first thing you should get used to when switching to vim, there's a reason its lesson 1.1 in vimtutor. To get to the arrow keys you have to reach your right hand halfway across the keyboard away from other useful escape mode keys like n,y,p, etc.
>>59809468
If you enter esc as ctrl+[ and swap caps lock with escape its a lot easier to switch out of insert mode.

>>59809468
vim is just for quick edits over ssh, just stick to atom.

>>59809917
>I'm too retarded for segregating conversation by topic
Oh dear...

>>59809955
Or use atom with the vim-mode-plus plugin

>>59809961
you apply too much rules in your life huh?You must be a fucking muslim
SUCK YOUR OWN DICK YOU GOAT FUCKING AHMED

>>59810038
This is great. Please keep going.

>>59809468
>Is this supposed to be a good user experience?
Yes.
>Why is the only feature that even begins to resemble a good workflow when using multiple files (i.e. something on screen where I can see a list of open files and easily move between them)
That's not a good workflow.
>Why does it take so many keypresses to do anything?
It doesn't.
>Escape :w Return i is not faster than Ctrl-S, not even close.
Rarely used commands have longer key combos, make perfect sense.
>Why are the default bindings garbage?
Nor particularly worse than any other program, but who actually uses default bindings anywhere? They never match with your personal use cases unless you wrote the program yourself. But that's what scriptable keybinds are for.
>Ctrl-W and then H/J/K/L afterwards to move between views? Really?
Yes.
>why is the mode key on escape, which is pretty far away for such a common key?
It wasn't when vi was originally created.
>Why do I need to rebind the default bindings by doing a key to key remap (as is usually done to fix the Ctrl-W problem)?
Because you have a different preference from the defaults.
>Why do many vital things (buffer/tab operations for example) not seem to have default keybindings, instead requiring sometimes pretty lengthy strings to function?
So you can make your own bindings.
>Am I actually supposed to use H/J/K/L to move and then not move using the arrow keys in insert mode?
If you want to.
>Is it not a massive inconvenience to go through two additional keypresses every time you want to move the cursor around?
I find it more comfortable since I've remapped capslock to escape.
>Why does switching between command and insert modes repeatedly move the cursor?
Depends on how you enter insert mode (there are several, above/below current line, before/after current char, etc).
>Am I just stupid or is it really this terrible?
Neither.
>How does anyone get any actual work done with this thing?
By typing and editing text with vim's features.

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>>59810070

>>59810120
>That's not a good workflow.
Then what is?

>It doesn't.
It does, at a minimum it takes two more to do many things.

>Rarely used commands have longer key combos, make perfect sense.
What does vim consider to be a frequently used command? Most things seem longer.

>It wasn't when vi was originally created.
>I find it more comfortable since I've remapped capslock to escape.
>So you can make your own bindings.
That is a poor excuse for not having good defaults. The argument here seems to be "Yes it's garbage out of the box, you need to fix it" and that's what I see everywhere else too (the seemingly near universal recommendation to remap that Ctrl-W tripe to Ctrl-H/J/K/L for example).

>Because you have a different preference from the defaults.
I meant why is the remapping done key to key rather than key to function, why do I have to refer to them by proxy? Is it even possible to free up those default bindings?

>>59810128
Are you actually trying to get at something or are you just shitstirring?

>>59809468
>Am I just stupid
Yes

>>59810350
>Does vim have the single most unhelpful community known to man
Yes

>>59810369
You can bring op to the help files, but you can't make him any less of a faggot

I've been using vim for years I love using the keyboard with it, and it's regex tools. But I could never figure out how to get other stuff to work like code completion or hints that show definitions, something like YouCompleteMe I guess. I wish I could figure that part out.

>>59810403
I can work out how to use it you numskull. What I am trying to decipher is how other people use it effectively <-- (this is the critical part) when on the surface it seems so unwieldy.

>>59810440
I've actually done that bit, you need to install a package manager (think I used Vundle) then use that to install YouCompleteMe/syntastic (possibly both, I forget) and beat your head off a brick wall trying to get them to behave how you want.

>>59810477
>install a package manager
That's probably been my problem. I always try to avoid installing anything outside my homedir that's not managed by the system's package manager to avoid all the potential problems. Why does it need its own package manager why cant apt / dpkg, or emerge / portage work?

>>59810477
I mean I emerged it but I could never figure out how to get it to actually work
eix youcomplete
* app-vim/youcompleteme
Available versions: ~20130910{tbz2} **99999999 {+clang test PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"}
Homepage: http://valloric.github.io/YouCompleteMe/
Description: vim plugin: a code-completion engine for Vim

>>59810543
It's all within your home directory, everything installs to the ~/.vim directory, including the plugin manager itself.
As for why it needs it's own one... I don't have an answer for that, but that's not all that uncommon for large pieces of software, Atom has one, you could consider the major browsers to have them considering addon installation and management is entirely internal, languages like Python, Ruby and Node.JS have them, it's hardly unheard of.

>>59810561
Afraid I can't help you there, it was something about installing Clang and putting it in a particular place or using a particular version... Can't remember anymore.

>>59809468
>Why does it take so many keypresses to do anything? Escape :w Return i is not faster than Ctrl-S, not even close.
I've remapped S to :update.
>Why are the default bindings garbage?
Because vi/vim is old software.
>Ctrl-W and then H/J/K/L afterwards to move between views? Really? If I'm supposed to use this from the home row, as I think I am, why is the mode key on escape, which is pretty far away for such a common key? Why do I need to rebind the default bindings by doing a key to key remap (as is usually done to fix the Ctrl-W problem)? Why do many vital things (buffer/tab operations for example) not seem to have default keybindings, instead requiring sometimes pretty lengthy strings to function?
As the other anon, i remapped capslock to control/escape, makes it a lot easier. I also have many custom keybindings. Not all users use the same functionality so it makes sense that each user puts whatever he/she uses in the home row.
>Am I actually supposed to use H/J/K/L to move and then not move using the arrow keys in insert mode? Is it not a massive inconvenience to go through two additional keypresses every time you want to move the cursor around?
No, using vim you learn to use more powerful movements, instead of moving by character you can move by words, paragraphs, blocks etc. But you can still bind it if you want. I have some emacs bindings like ^a -> start, ^e -> end and so on, and use them sometimes to save time.
>Why does switching between command and insert modes repeatedly move the cursor? This isn't even a serious problem but from what is supposedly the best text editor going, I would expect it to at least not move my cursor without asking.
Use the a (append) command to reenter insert mode and your cursor won't move around.

If you feel vim doesn't work for you just don't use it. Lots of fags use sublime text or w/e. The point is to use normal mode and string lots of crazy commands. If you prefer always staying in insert mode don't use this shit.

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>>59809468
>2017
>using vim
>:'(
Please use superior editor like mine, dont be retarded anon

>>59810477
>installed ycm
OP confirmed for brainlet

>>59810634
>using vim you learn to use more powerful movements, instead of moving by character you can move by words, paragraphs, blocks etc.
>Use the a (append) command to reenter insert mode and your cursor won't move around.
Thank you for giving me some actually useful advice.

>>59810477
>I can work out how to use it
Denial isn't just a river in Africa anon

>>59810683
You're welcome anon. You can check the multiple motion commands in the manual with the command `:h motion.txt` and trying some. For instance { } for paragraphs.

Why would use not use IntelliJ IDEA with an emac extension? You get both great editing capabilities and an holistic and semantic overview of your project. Checkmate emacfags

>>59810683
Also you can use control-O in insert mode to return to normal mode for one command then automatically return to insert mode. So you could do <C-o>:w<CR> for instance and be back in insert mode.

>>59809761
>Anyone with an IQ above room temperature
That's pretty high in Kelvins.

>>59810789
That sounds like a huge improvement, thanks!

>>59809468
The point is you start with a minimal but functional editor and you build it up over time to make it work exactly how you want it. You don't have to use hjkl if you don't want to at all, you can even totally unbind them. The reason it is that way is so that your hands stay on the home row and you can seamlessly go from editing to moving about without reaching for the mouse or arrow keys, its all about flow. When you first start, it seems unintuitive but you get the hang of it fairly quickly and once it starts to click in your head you'll understand, it just takes practise. Consider running vimtutor and doing the tutorial bit by bit, it will help you get it in your muscle memory. If you've ever used a keyboard focused tiling wm its the same process of "wtf" to "I can't live without this". Vim directions will slowly seep into everything you ever do, you'll be unable to live without them, uninstall all programs that don't allow you to use them, install browser plugins to let you have them, post vimbindings patches to random open source projects and so on

Don't bother with Vim or Emacs, they are terrible from a usability point of view. The reason why are they popular among programming enthusiasts is that they are elegant, and beautiful compared to bloated IDE's. However, that elegance comes at the expense of usability. Sure, you could spend a view months learning all the key mappings, but why? It defeats the purpose of having a computer in the first place. i.e: To let the computer handle the memorization, precision, and throughput, while we handle the creativity. Would you rather spend months learning keymappings or spend months building a cool project?

>>59810825
I see it as an investment; after a few months learning keymappings you can edit code faster than someone who didn't, and you keep these skills forever (as long as the software supports them of course). Also it's a continuous process, it's not like you can't code for months while you learn. I've learnt new commands over the years while editing code a bit faster each time.

>>59810642
>https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/22900
kek

What are Vim and Emacs? They're basically just code text editors, right?

What makes them be used to say, Sublime Text or any such syntax highlighters?

>>59810854
Is there any proof of this? Like actual scientific proof?

Because right now (I'm working in an IDE) I already think I'm using a lot of shortcuts, auto generation and functional expressions in my code that severely reduce my time coding. Most of my time goes into the actual thinking and testing of my code, how do emacs help me with that. At least I don't have to bother mentally with any additional key mappings.

>>59810861
>https://github.com/Microsoft/vscode/issues/2290
>OS Version: macOS Sierra 10.12.3

I got no problems with it, ram usage is also very low

>>59810891
Can be used in terminal
Configurable to a fucking ridiculous degree
Installed by default on pretty much every nix machine
Free and open source

Also emacs and vim have extensive syntax highlighting ability what are you talking about

>>59810906
>Is there any proof of this? Like actual scientific proof?
Honestly I don't think so, only anecdotes and memes.
Personally I've been called out by peers for editing code super fast, fixing a bug in 10 files while they only edited one in the same time (they use sublime).
But vim has almost no actual IDE functionality like code completion, type checking, etc. so in that case an IDE is certainly preferrable. Sometimes they allow vim/emacs keybindings. Sometimes I copy and paste to vim a code block to edit it comfortably then copy it back, although it's less than optimal.

I think the bindings help because even if you think and test your code, you still have to type (some of) it, you later modify it, refactor it, etc. Or you might make a mistake and have to edit multiple parts of your code, etc.
It's all personal and anecdotic though. Maybe you don't need to edit as much as you need to think, and the IDE does most of the work, as you say. Personally I've found it worth it to learn the keybindings.

>>59810906
Could you name a few specific command that are not found or easily made using any modern IDE?

>>59810924
I just wanted to know what they were and why they're used.

Thanks.

>>59809468
that looks disgusting lmao

>>59809468

That's why emacs exists faggot.

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>>59809468

>>59809468

>>59810120 and >>59810634 already gave some solid answers but here's mine too

>Is this supposed to be a good user experience?
It's the opposite of user friendly at start, but becomes very comfortable eventually, moreso than anything else
>Why is the only feature that even begins to resemble a good workflow when using multiple files (i.e. something on screen where I can see a list of open files and easily move between them) apparently explicitly not for doing that (Vim's tab pages) except when people argue it is?
I kinda agree with you that vim's buffers aren't really as good as they could be. I'd put

set hidden

in my vimrc (type ":help hidden" for more info - remember to use help often), and then install a plugin that shows buffers as a tab-like bar (I think I'm using buftabline), and then setup shortcuts to move to next/prev buffer.
>Why does it take so many keypresses to do anything? Escape :w Return i is not faster than Ctrl-S, not even close.
I just have ctrl-s mapped to ":update<cr>" in gvim. Yes the default of writing ":w<cr>" is unnecessary and shit considering you should do it like every 30 secs, but I can live with having to work around the ancient defaults.
>Why are the default bindings garbage?
See above.
>why is the mode key on escape, which is pretty far away for such a common key?
Again, caps lock is fucking fantastic as escape. You'll notice yourself using esc a lot more outside of vim too, such a fantastic key
>Am I actually supposed to use H/J/K/L to move and then not move using the arrow keys in insert mode? Is it not a massive inconvenience to go through two additional keypresses every time you want to move the cursor around?

(cont.)

Is it possible to get autocompletion as nice as on IntelliJ in Vim?

>>59811524
>>59809468

>Am I actually supposed to use H/J/K/L to move and then not move using the arrow keys in insert mode? Is it not a massive inconvenience to go through two additional keypresses every time you want to move the cursor around?
If you're gonna move a long distance, quickly pressing caps lock and pressing a/i when you arrive is practically as fast as moving your hand to the arrow keys, and only sligthly slower than using shortcuts. The advantage is, once you enter normal mode by pressing caps (esc), you can not only use any kind of movement command that is way faster than arrows/hjkl, you can also perform operations and keep moving around in case you didn't just want to keep typing after moving around.
>Why does switching between command and insert modes repeatedly move the cursor? This isn't even a serious problem but from what is supposedly the best text editor going, I would expect it to at least not move my cursor without asking.
'a' is your "primary" way of entering insert mode, really. Since the cursor is "on" a character in normal mode, and between characters in insert, there has to be a choice when switching modes. There's a/i for entering insert, but returning to normal always chooses the character on the left because it's the last character you inserted, assuming you actually inserted something while in insert mode. Also I think having to choose every time which character you wanna end up on would be distracting,

extra tips:
stick to it for a while to get the dumb defaults sorted and to get the flow
caps to esc (on system level)
setup your vimrc and put shit in it (but don't copy a premade config)
google every time you think something you're doing feels slow or retarded - there's practically always a solution
use gvim (mouse enabled by default, better cursor, better pasting, etc)

>>59811526
IDEs are usually kings at autocompletion since they actually analyze the code and understand its semantics. It's theoretically possible to couple a plain text editor with some kind of modular parser/analyzer, but I don't know if there's any good options out there. There's also plugins for specific languages around, but again IDEs are probably often better.

>>59809575
It's different. Judging from your complaints about vim, it sounds like it's up your alley.

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>>59809468
>If I'm supposed to use this from the home row, as I think I am, why is the mode key on escape
Escape used to be in a much more reachable location back when vim was being made. A lot of people map the mode key to capslock now.

>>59811524
>I kinda agree with you that vim's buffers aren't really as good as they could be. I'd put

set hidden

in my vimrc (type ":help hidden" for more info - remember to use help often), and then install a plugin that shows buffers as a tab-like bar (I think I'm using buftabline), and then setup shortcuts to move to next/prev buffer.
That's a great plan, for if you have no idea how buffers are supposed to be used

>>59811536
>>59811631
Also you can use ctrl-[ (or ctrl-c) instead of escape if you don't want to remap.

>>59811659
humor me

>>59810891
https://youtu.be/jNa3axo40qM?t=1m57s

>>59811705
No need anon, you're already a joke

>>59811774
if you aren't even able to back up your own bullshit, you can fuck right off

>>59809851
learn operator precedence

>>59811793
>being this butt blasted

>>59809468
>Is this supposed to be a good user experience?
It's supposed to provide whatever experience you configure it to provide. "good" is subjective.
>Why is the only feature that even begins to resemble a good workflow when using multiple files (i.e. something on screen where I can see a list of open files and easily move between them) apparently explicitly not for doing that (Vim's tab pages) except when people argue it is?
I literally don't understand what you are communicating with this sentence. Is English a second language? In either case, nerdtree works for me. You are going to have to explain more without using a runon sentence.
>Why does it take so many keypresses to do anything? Escape :w Return i is not faster than Ctrl-S, not even close.
>Why are the default bindings garbage? Ctrl-W and then H/J/K/L afterwards to move between views? Really? If I'm supposed to use this from the home row, as I think I am, why is the mode key on escape, which is pretty far away for such a common key? Why do I need to rebind the default bindings by doing a key to key remap (as is usually done to fix the Ctrl-W problem)? Why do many vital things (buffer/tab operations for example) not seem to have default keybindings, instead requiring sometimes pretty lengthy strings to function?
Change the keybindings if you don't like them. Seriously, this is a childlike thing to complain about. What are you a macfag?
>Am I actually supposed to use H/J/K/L to move and then not move using the arrow keys in insert mode? Is it not a massive inconvenience to go through two additional keypresses every time you want to move the cursor around?
I don't use h or l at all. I use j and k (usually in combination with a number) for changing the line number relative to the cursor. I use G for going directly to a line number. I use f and F for moving around within a single line. If this navigation is too hard, you can enable the mouse at any time and use that the same as with any other editor.

>>59810612
>you could consider the major browsers to have them considering addon installation and management is entirely internal,
Wow I never thought about it like that. So I installed Dein and Deoplete and it looks like C completion is working! Now don't need no stinking bloated IDE.

>>59809468
Ctrl+[ is escape and you don't need to reach for it.

>>59809961
>generalfag

>>59810861
already fixed.
next question?

>>59811943
>I literally don't understand what you are communicating with this sentence. Is English a second language? In either case, nerdtree works for me. You are going to have to explain more without using a runon sentence.
I was saying that there are, as far as I know, two main ways to have multiple files in Vim:

Tab pages, which are a weird mix of features that suggest they were intended to be used as viewports (like the way they can contain entire layouts of multiple windows) and features that suggest they were intended to be used as tabs like in IDEs (like the way they are named after the file currently open in them).

And buffers, which are the obvious tool for handling multiple files but they have a lot of weird behaviors, like the lack of any way to permanently list them on screen (without a plugin), the necessity of saving them before leaving and the arguably weird ways in which they are opened and closed.

Both of them have problems, neither of them seems like a real solution and people can't seem to decide what exactly tab pages are designed to do.

>>59812233

set hidden

" movement
inoremap <c-h> <c-o>:bp<cr>
nnoremap <c-h> :bp<cr>
inoremap <c-l> <c-o>:bn<cr>
nnoremap <c-l> :bn<cr>

" open & close
inoremap <c-j> <c-o>:ene<cr>
nnoremap <c-j> :ene<cr>
inoremap <c-k> <c-o>:bd<cr>
nnoremap <c-k> :bd<cr>

There.

Not really much to ask since the answer is easily googleable and the editor just can't change its defaults since the maintainer is obsessed with backwards compatibility (and rightly so).