C++ as a general purpose language was a mistake.

>>59584739
You had no better choice.

>>59584754
Key word: had

i am a lot more worried about javascript as a general purpose language to be extremely honest

>>59584785
Unfortunately this.

>>59584754
C

>>59584781
What stops you from not using C++ now?

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>>59584785
I'm kind of indignant about this too, not because I really dislike JS but because there's an extremely similar language that has all of its good parts and none of the bad and it gets no recognition.

>>59584785
C++ makes the dev suffer.
JS makes the devs and the users suffer.

>>59584810
>all the disadvantages of c++ with no of the advantages
lelno

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>>59584855
>C
>all the disadvantages of c++

Too bad OP is a noob and does not realize that his PC is written in C/C++

>>59584785
Honestly I can't really blame them.
GUI land is so fucked up the only thing that works painlessly cross platform is html/JavaScript GUIs

I've been thinking we need a language specifically designed for GUI purposes.

>>59584810
>endless layers of macros
>better choice

>>59584873
There is QML, but it looks too smart for me. Also, it's a Qt thing.

>>59584870
I never said it wasn't a good systems programming language, just that it's a shit general purpose language.

>>59584873
>>59584902
There's also Vala for GTK. I'm sure there are a lot more.

To be fair, desktop JS is slow only because the implementations (v8, node and electron) are relatively immature for gui uses. I hope devs realize they have to work on optimizing the tools rather than "just get 512gb ram and a cluster of xeons lol"

>>59584873
I would love to have a graphical toolkit sort of like tikz.
Qt is good enough, but complicates the compile process and if something breaks, it can take a long time to figure out what and why.

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>tfw no good language for desktop applications to write once and run everywhere

>>59584970
C + (GTK||EFL)

>>59584873
>language specifically designed for GUI purposes.
Shit like that exists, but it's either not cross-platform or simply not popular so people tend to not use it.

>>59584984
gtk looks god awful on most platforms.

>>59584991
Yeah, it does.

>>59584970
For smaller apps, JS+Electron framework is breddy gud

>>59584991
Gtk looks god awful on every platform, plus it's god awful to write for.

>>59584984
I said write once and run, not compile everywhere.

>>59585010
150 megabyt-ish Atom doesn't make me to think so.

>>59585036
Yeah, Atom is a little big in scope for Electron. But for something smaller, like a media player for example, it would be great.

>>59585036
>I said write once and run, not compile everywhere.
Don't be lazy now, if you don't compile it it will run like shit on weaker devices, so making it run everywhere is less useful than it should be.

>>59584838
The only reason JS is more popular is because it's the language that runs the web while Lua has always been "just a simple dynamic language".
Everyone started using JS for the web and it all got out of hand when people wanted to write actual software in it and not just some script on a web page.
Many people just started using JS because everyone was using it, but those people are stupid.
Any sane person that knows something about programming would agree that Lua is the better choice.

>>59585036
>not compile everywhere
Javascript ECMA6, + Angular2.

>>59585047
museeks is a music player based on electron. filesize is ~45mb

>>59585061
Зaчeм ты тoлкaeшь этo гoвнo?

>>59585078
Fair enough, it's definitely not the best choice if performance or space are an issue. It's only really justifiable in situations where those aren't particularly limited, but it does make app development much faster and more painless.

>>59584810
nah C sucks as general purpose language. it is good for developing the kernel, drivers, networking stack, etc. but it is a pretty shit language for anything graphical such as desktop applications.

>>59585092
This is not shit, it's sweet bread. Pokushai.

>>59585185
No, it's not.

>>59585217
Имя cними, тoгдa пoгoвopим

>>59585230
Speak english please.

>>59585241
Heт

>>59585241
>english
чтo oн имeл в видy этим

>>59585185
Best of the best software written in C. mpv, mupdf, dwm, st, sic, sandy, vlc, less, grep, dash.

>>59585261
Whitest of the white developers use C on daily basis.

>>59584964
Have you even made a program using Qt to begin with?

>>59585269
>C
>Whitest of the white
It's about C++ actually, since it was created by Norwegian.

>>59585304
bjarne is a filthy dane

Anyone complaining about C++ are to dumb to use, no wonder, since most og /g/ are web devs(which isnt real programming anyway)

>>59585498
most of /g/ arent even devs at all

>>59585502
True, I make sauna benches for a living...

>>59585498
>anyone [...] are to dumb to use

>>59585534

Except the argument is true and you know it.

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>>59585596
I know that it's not. I can use it. I did for a long time, C++ was actually the language I started programming with. But it's simply painful when there are so much better alternatives. Damn, now I even prefer C to C++.
>http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/

C was a mistake
ML was robbed
I'm a huge retard

>>59585058
>Array indexing starts at 1
>Lua is better choice
...

>>59585686
>Array indexing starts at 1
Is this bad somehow?

C was a milkshake
ML was robot

>>59585645

No man, you just used C++ to do some trivial a + b shit in Highschool or college.

C++ is the most powerfull language today, as a matter of fact when serious applications(like games, or banking or ANYTHING) is written, its in C++.

Your IQ is simply to low to gasp its complexity, so you go for poo in loo alternatives like java,c#,python etc

>>59585697
>in this country we greet by punching each other in the face

>>59585686
Why is that bad though? The only reason you find that weird because many languages you've used start it at 0. Actually 1 is more natural if you ask anybody who hasn't been programming.

I'd rather point out ugly sequences ("...") in arguments or multiple (optional) results.

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>>59584739
Guess what, people recognized the mistakes they made and now we have wonderful things like C++14. Get with the times, grampa.

>>59585718
>Actually 1 is more natural if you ask anybody who hasn't been programming.
So... This programming language try to appeal to people who never programmed?
Not him btw

>>59585731
1 really does make sense in the case of it not being an offset. Otherwise yeah the offset notation is the obvious answer.

>>59585725
Too bad there still is legacy shit such as exceptions

>>59585716
Do you have arguments against 1-based indexing or you're just going to pretend to be retarded?

>>59585771
Array indice are offsets from first value.

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>>59585771
>pretend

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>>59585788
It makes sence if we want to represent array indices as memory offsets, but what if we want to represent array indices as vector indices?

>>59585710
Okay, I know I'm being baited but I'll respond anyway.

>C++ is the most powerfull language
Like, uh, Turing complete? Or even more powerful?

>when serious applications [...] is written, its in C++
Okay, that's partially true. C++ is used pretty often. But so is C (in low level stuff), Java and C# (especially C# in Unity games). Modern languages are still too immature to be used as often.

I even searched through work offers from banks. It was actually C#, Java, R and Scala. Kek.

>Your IQ is simply to low to gasp its complexity
I guess the best language is Brainfuck then. I mean, it's really hard to code in it.

>you go for poo in loo alternatives like java,c#,python etc
Except my language of choice is OCaml.

>>59585842
It's Turing Complete ++

>>59585731
No, I think they just went
>fuck conventions, we will make it the way we think it's right

And yep, you shouldn't really think about offset in arrays. First of all, you don't get a pointer at the beginning of an array so offset is meaningless here. Secondly, there is no 'array' type in Lua. There is a 'table' type which is actually a dictionary which is also optimized for integers (it consists of a hash table part for non-integers and an actual array for integers). So when you know that your array is actually a dictionary, thinking in offset categories is a little odd.

>>59585842
The only man who can wholely grasp C++'s true nature is Bjarne.

>>59585725
C++17 atually, C++14 deprecated legacy shit.

>>59584970

dude java lmao

>>59584970
>Dumb comment
As expected from a dumb animu poster

>>59585842

>Like, uh, Turing complete? Or even more powerful?
it's doubly Turing Complete because of TMP, lol

>>59585905
He can't.
>>59585710
Nature of modern CPU is simple, you can do exatly same thing in C that you do in C++.
If you use high-level abstractions it takes long time to compile, it has overhead.
Create good compiler for C++ very hard.

>>59586047
Why do you need C++ to develop compiler?
It's simple to substitute code with assembly instructions. It doesn't require objects/templates.
Most developers use C++ becouse of habbit, not becouse it's better solution.

>>59586027
>t. brainlet

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>>59586138
stfu dumb animuu

>>59584785
Yeah, compiling a single program into an ios and android application at the click of a button is fucking lame. Fuck JS

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>>59586203
Take your pills. It's not sane if you lose your abitily of speech to drawings of East-Asian origin.
The best you can do to not trigger autism is to not visit 4chan entirely.

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>>59586257
STFU dumb animoo poster

>>59584873
People will never use it

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>>59586272
Have this cap.
It's a gift for you.

>>59586047

What are you even talking about?
>Nature of modern CPU is simple, you can do exatly same thing in C that you do in C++.

Yea, but it takes ALOT more time.

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>>59586355
stfu dumb animu poster

>>59584739
C++ was full of great ideas with sub-par execution and it really should have been completely replaced by now. I wish we could actually learn from our mistakes as programmers instead of having to deal with them for years and years just because a language is "comfortable" or industry standard despite being kind of shitty and completely outdated and full of legacy shit that is proven not to work under any circumstance.

I hope Rust overtakes it honestly, and I don't even use Rust, but it's just time for C++ to be replaced with something that doesn't feel like a gigantic half-broken outdated prototype for OOP from the 80s. Programming with C++ has always felt like digging diamonds out of a mountain of dogshit to me and I think most people are getting sick of it.

>>59586757
What alternatives do we have?

>>59587546
Among object oriented languages Rust and D I think. Both are too new to be widely used, but in a few years they will perhaps mature enough. I've heard that functional languages are on the uptake so maybe those will take over. The problem is that Pajeets might not be able to use them.

>>59585686
Lua was built for people who don't understand computers or general programming, the indexing starting at 1 was a rational decision.

Choosing to not use it because of that alone makes you a terrible programmer. That's like not buying an objectively good car because it lacks an aux jack or something

>>59587994
Seriously though if you're a dynamic language and not using a memory-size+offset 1 indexing is perfectly reasonable. Using 0 indexing for traditions sake is awful.

>>59587970
>implying pajeets are inferior
:(

>>59587970
>Rust
>OOP
wee lad

>>59584785
C++ causes security vulnerabilities, while JS runs about 10x slower and uses 10x more RAM. I'm not sure which is worse.

Why can't people just use Java? It's not nearly as bad as the alternatives, for languages idiot learned in university.

>>59584873
>painlessly cross platform
>every single browser views your html/css differently
>you have to redesign your GUI again for mobile
I've worked on projects where the lead had this mentality. I spent about 80% of my time solving weird CSS bugs that wouldn't exist in a GUI tool that was meant for desktop software.

>>59589994
>C++ causes security vulnerabilities
No, it doesn't. Bad code written in it does, however that's the same for each and any language.

>>59590057
How many programs are there out there without some badly written code? A language with a runtime like Java or Javascript at least has memory safety. Idiots programming in a memory-unsafe language is one of the main causes of bugs.

>>59590150
>is one of the main causes of bugs
*is one of the main cause of security exploits

>>59590150
Exactly, bad code is like everywhere. Java or Javascript doesn't protect you from it.
Also, JRE had its own share of security vulneribilities, a problem you'd only have by using Java.

>>59590281
java and javascript prevent you from any kind of memory unsafety attacks. These are a huge portion CVEs for any project written in a memory unsafe language. That level of protection alone is pretty nice to have.

Yeah, JRE has vulnerabilities, but is it easy for an attacker to put bad input into a Java program and cause that? It's pretty easy to do that in a C++ program if you've discovered a buffer overflow on the stack.

>>59585304
> snownigger
> white

>>59589859
Oh, my bad. I've always seen Rust as a replacement for C++ and somehow assumed it must be OOP as well. Now I'm even more inclined to learn it.

>>59584739
>Be back in the 80s
>Ada comes out
>Complain it's not possible to implement
>C++ come out
>People think it's possible to implement
Don't do drugs, people.

>>59589859
Is it possible to do OOP in Rust? It's pretty trivial in C.

>>59590422
What kind of shithole do you live in that snow isn't white?

>>59590374
You can't even securely erase a String in Java, stop thinking that this is memory safety.

>>59590534
Can you provide any kind of sample exploit of this?

>>59590500
> Implying race is only skin deep

>>59590556
No, but you can't provide any kind of sample exploit for the code I've written in "unsafe" languages either.
But generally, information that stays in memory longer than it should is worse compared to it really being deleted when it's no longer needed.

>>59590725
You can easily demonstrate a pretty severe exploit in C or C++. Just have get_input return an 80 character string and it can redirect the return pointer. It just takes one mistake to achieve arbitrary code execution.

char *retarded(void)
{
    char s[32];
    sprintf(s, "%s", get_input());
    //do something with s
}

>information that stays in memory longer than it should is worse compared to it really being deleted when it's no longer needed
If Java is effective in protecting you from reading memory that you shouldn't be allowed to read, this shouldn't be a factor.

>>59590534

Could you use StringBuffers instead?

>>59590844
Now, find such a function in a program. Some will have it, others won't
Meanwhile, security vulneribility in the JRE will come with each and every Java program using that JRE. It's a huge single point of failure.

>>59590971

>Some will have it, others won't
Any sufficiently large C or C++ program will have a hole in it somewhere. The JRE might be a single point of failure but all of every C/C++ program is your attack surface.

>>59590971
>Some will have it, others won't
There will probably be at least one occurrence of this if you have a million lines of code, unless your devs follow strict practices to never allocate to the stack. It's basically impossible to guarantee that there is no case where you'll ever read uninitialized or freed memory.

>>59590844
>2011+6
>not using sprintf_s

>>59591072
>the current year
>exclusively targeting windows
>not just using snprintf

>>59590992
Any sufficiently large Java program will have a hole in it somewhere.
Which is the point, it's the same shit in the end.

>>59591122
>Any sufficiently large Java program will have a hole in it somewhere
Can you describe an arbitrary code execution bug in Java?

>>59591191
I can't, but that doesn't mean shit. I also can't pick your lock, but that surely doesn't mean it's unpickable.

Arbitrary code execution in Java happened before and will happen again.

>>59591353

When it happens in Java it's novel. When it happens in C/C++ it's business as usual.

>>59591353
>I can't, but that doesn't mean shit
You can't provide any Java arbitrary code execution exploits, but it's trivial to create one in C, by accident. You're not making a very strong point here.

>>59591191
>Can you describe an arbitrary code execution bug in Java?
Not him, but throw a ThreadDeath exception in your code and observe what happens.

>>59591045
>your devs follow strict practices to never allocate to the stack
>no case where you'll ever read uninitialized or freed memory

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>>59591689
what is your point with this?

>>59591534
That's pretty hilarious.

>>59584739
Way to advertise that you're too stupid to code in C/C++.

Now go play with some Python scripts little boy.

>>59591509
You know literally jack shit about hacking and languages. So stop talking.

Java is not "safe." No language is "safe."

>>59593381
>Java is not "safe."
no shit, that's why I said 'memory safe'. JVM checks that you aren't accessing memory you shouldn't, which is the main cause of arbitrary code execution exploits.

>>59593423
>a program written by a human is going to do a better job of preventing memory access violations than another program written by a human

>>59593423
And another thing: Java is slow as fuck. It's sometimes slower than fucking Python. Always slower than C#. WAY slower than Swift, obj. C, or C++. So if you're worried about exploits in performance critical code Java is DOA.

>>59593494
As far as I'm aware, you can't easily redirect the return pointer in Java if you fuck something up.

The JVM under the hood probably does contain a significant number of bugs where memory safety is an issue, but it's much harder for improperly sanitized user input to trigger a bug in the JVM rather than to just have improperly sanitized code trigger a bug in the program. Heartbleed was caused by the program not validating the length of the message; what exploits exist in the JVM that are that easy to exploit?

>>59593690
Just stop. You're not a security expert and you have never looked at statistics regarding the types of attacks which have been successful in the wild. There are some famous bugs related to bounds checking in C/C++. But they're famous precisely because C/C++ are used for low level tasks so the bugs affected a wide range of systems. Why is C/C++ used in kernels, drivers, embedded, and performance critical libraries? BECAUSE THE OTHER LANGUAGES CAN'T CUT IT.

See this list? This is how "secure" your bloated, cumbersome, slow-as-fuck language is.
https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-93/product_id-19117/Oracle-JRE.html

If Java could be used to write the foundation for a high performance cryptography library then it would be famous for an exploit.

>Heartbleed was caused by the program not validating the length of the message
And Java could never be a solution for heartbleed or cloudbleed because it's too bloated and too slow.

>>59594091
this thread was about C++ as a general purpose programming language.

>>59594431
>pushing java safe meme
>get called out on it
>"hurr durr this thread is about c++"

Yes it is. And OP is full of shit. C++ was a significant advance for its day. It remains very useful today because it simply allows for the creation of faster, more efficient programs.

But like a high performance race car, it's not a kid's toy. Having the tools to go fast means also having the tools to crash hard.

C++ servers its role as a higher level version of C, which itself is arguably a portable abstraction of assembler. It's not the best choice for every job. But there are jobs where it's practically the only choice.

>>59584873
Tk, fagger

>>59584873
>GUI land is so fucked up the only thing that works painlessly cross platform is html/JavaScript GUIs
Xojo, though they're still working on their Android target.

>>59594844
>"hurr durr this thread is about c++"
my point was that this thread was about general purpose programming languages, not low level high performance programming.

>>59590493
You don't need to, Rust already solves all the problems OOP was created to solve in the first place. You can easily emulate OOP with Rust, though. It is easier than emulating it in C.

>>59584811
Other simpler languages that do the job.

>>59595437
Then your point was wrong. Read OP's post.

C++ is a great general purpose programming language. And while it allows you to do lower level things (pretty much any C will compile in C++) it's not that low level.

>>59595927
>"emulating" oop
Into the trash it goes.

>>59585050
Yeah WORA is stupid, as long as the source is portable making a build for a new target is trivial.

>>59585842
>Like, uh, Turing complete? Or even more powerful?
Expressiveness isn't the same thing as computational class. Brainfuck is Turing complete, but I doubt you'd want to write a fizzbuzz in it.

>>59586359
Not really, most of your time in C++ is trying to make sense of template errors and having to create boilerplate for every little thing.

>>59590992
>>59591191
Arbitrary code execution is a meme. Yes, potentially you can hijack a C program to do it, but it's stupid to go through that trouble when it's so much easier to write a C program yourself DESIGNED to do whatever damage you want to do, give it an innocuous name, and trick people to run it.

>>59596114
>implying C belongs in the trash

>>59596304
>>59595927
C doesn't emulate OOP. You can implement OOP in C exactly as it is done in C++. It's just explicit in C and implicit in C++.

>>59596290
tricking someone to run a C program is only suitable for attacks against morons. If you want to get into a server, the admins are probably not ever going to download a new executable.

>>59596425
They will if you convince them that the old one has vulnerabilities and the new one doesn't.

>>59596485
For a lot of server admins, that would require you to get the malicious package into the debian/centos/etc. repos, which is not easy.

>>59584739
Sure. Rust is going to take over system programming.

>>59596413
Nobody cares about your RMS-tier linguistic autism.

>>59596514
Sure it will. Just like Java, and D, and Go, and...

>>59596608
Ada?

It's actually taken over systems programming in some fields.

>>59596649
A hobby OS and a browser addon do not qualify as ``taken over systems programming in some fields".

>>59596788
it's pretty popular in the aerospace industry. The DOD probably still uses it too.

>>59597056
I think >>59596788 was referring to rust?

>>59584811
Rust

>>59597117
Yeah for some reason I thought >>59596649
was talking about Rust.

>>59587970

> D
> New

SHITPOSTING

>>59598504
It's pretty new but like the first release was a decade after they started or something wasn't it?

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>>59584970
J A V A
A
V
A

>>59584947
js is quick enough but ram hungry

the problem with shit like electron is that you're using nodejs to host chromium (cef) to use more web cancer for a gui

that's all the blosted html and css plus a second instance of v8 js shit for the browser side of things

fucking cancer desu

>>59584739
Noob here, C++ actually makes more sense than any other language I've dabbled in

>>59598610
It's gotten a lot better since C++11

>>59590844
If you do that in C++ you deserve what you get.

Use the fucking string class and iostreams at least so you don't have to fuck around with memory allocation.

>>59585710
>C++ is the most powerfull language today, as a matter of fact when serious applications(like games, or banking or ANYTHING) is written, its in C++.
many banks are switching to functional languages like SML

javascript isn't so bad, mainly memes here, javascript "running slow" "using more ram" etcetera, are memes tied entirely to browser vendor implementations of javascript interpreters.

V8 performs great, it has the same problems as any interpreted language overall. The only weakness in java is the amount of bolted on crap that you can blow your foot off with because it was added in the 90s, sort of like
C++ really.

>>59598560
He said GOOD language.

>>59599708
>one bank
>"many banks"

>>59585710
java, erlang, any many more are used for banking/HFT

>>59585261
So thats why vlc is complete shit for audio and video is much duller in color

>>59586047
Except object oriented programming

>>59584739
>C++ as a general purpose language was a mistake

Correct. Now we have JavaScript. C++ is for autists.

>implying C++ has any purpose

>>59600050
>implying life has

>>59600073
no default one, but you can assign one that fulfills you yourself

>>59584855
Like pages of useless template errors? I hate that about C...

I think you mean
>C++
>all the disadvantages of c with none of the advantages

>>59599935
>BofA atms excruciatingly slow
>notice all the atms being upgraded
>oh good we get fast atms now
>walk up to atm
>pretty pretty graphics
>EVEN FUCKING SLOWER
>"banks use java erlang, functional meme"

Now I understand.

>>59600124
banks use a combination of everything, really. They've got more legacy than anywhere else since they can't have any downtime ever and shit is irreplacable.

>>59600124
goddamn everything used to be glacially slow J2ME trash, you must be underage to think it's a new development
>meme
underage is confirmed

>>59585010
he wanted to make desktop apps, not fucking websites retard

>>59600090
> C++ a subset of C baring one or two exceptions
> hurr durr C++ has none of the advantages of C

literally kill yourself

>>59600861
>subset
Pajeet pls

>>59585010
>For smaller apps, JS+Electron framework is breddy gud
Application size says otherwise.

>>59585830
How 0-based vector indices don't make sense? Vector indices are just labels, they don't even have to be numbers.