Who is right?

Just switch places with the physical keys and then remap them.

>>59199297
>CTRL should always stay at the bottom left corner, easy to find
Yeah, but for most non-power users, it's probably more important to find Fn than to find Ctrl.
There are so many "normies" that don't use the control key, for example they rightclick->copy and rightclick->paste. The Fn key functions (I assume are mostly for hardware controlling) probably have more use for them than Ctrl.
Yes, I agree that Ctrl should be there, but I have a feeling the userbase that is the biggest, which manufacturers cater to, are clueless normies.

>>59199355
>using ctrl makes you a power user

mind fucking blown

>>59199376
In the mind of your average dads, grandmas and 11-year old, yes, it does.

>not mapping CTRL to the useless Capslock key

Git gud.

>>59199355
most people don't even know what the Fn button does
and most of these people use ctrl

>>59199355
If someone doesn't use ctrl, they will never use function keys, therefore fn is even less useful for them

>>59199440
but cPSLOCK ISN'T USELESS AT ALL

>Who is right?
FN on the right of right alt

man i would get so tilted using my friend's thinkpad because the fn key bullshit. ctrl obv belongs on bottom left, it's used 1000x more than fn and needs to be easy to get to

>>59199355
These people dont use keyboards anymore.

>>59199297
depends on your previous laptop

Who agrees Fn should be between right alt and right ctrl

>>59200958
fucking degenerate MODS!

>>59199297
My T450s has it but I can swap it in BIOS ez-pc

>>59199297
Control should be where Caps Lock is. Who wants to reach all the way to the corner for control?

Windows-ism.

>>59199355

If normies don't even use ctrl, they sure as hell won't use the fn key.

>>59203175
They will, it's color coded with media, volume, and brightness for ease of access.

>>59199297
I prefer the ctrl key to be on the right.

Ctrl on the left is good if you play games that use wasd as directional controls.
But the benefits ends there.
The home row is one key to the right of that, and this is where you should find yourself to automatically rest your hands.

>>59199297
It should be on the right, since it's directly below where your pinky rests on the homerow.

>>59199297
>easy to find
you should already know exactly where your keys are at all times, fucking retard normie. nobody wants to do finger stretching exercises to reach for ctrl on the bottom left.

ctrl ===== right

>>59199297
I don't give a shit

I have laptop(s) with each of those configuration.
You just need to get used to it

You can flip it in the bios anyways so who cares

File: thinkpad-x1-carbon-keyboard.jpg (43KB, 775x500px) Image search: [Google]

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thinkpads are not better
you can switch keys in bios
but its retarded

>>59200910
Thinkpads have a bios switch to switch them around

Fn shouldn't exist in the first place

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you faggots get triggered with the dumbest shit. if it bothers you stop buying laptops.

>>59199440
This

>>59204551
do go on

>>59199297
1005HA is right.

Whenever I use a keyboard like the top one I always hit Fn instead of Ctrl when I go for it because I expect it to be in the very corner.

The fact Alt is moved across a bit is less of an issue.

File: IMG_20170302_123044.jpg (2MB, 2610x4640px) Image search: [Google]

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>>59199297
Literally the only sane layout. There is no need to have capslock at all. FN sits nicely in the blank spot between meta and alt

>>59199297
>So, why do manufacturers implement stupid solutions like the "Fn" key where the "Ctrl" key should be?

Does anyone besides Chinknovo do that?

>>59199297
obviously on the left.

what is much more important to discuss is how some layouts apparently don't have the <> thing but like a humongous left shift.

>>59199440
can't do, my keyboard layout uses that for non-alphanumeric characters

>>59204647
>Whenever I use a keyboard like the top one I always hit Fn instead of Ctrl when I go for it because I expect it to be in the very corner.

this

>>59203332
Ya but if you want to ctr+something without moving your hand from the mouse its kind of annoying.

I actually don't mind the current layout of keyboards, although I would like a keyboard with the numbers on the bottom of the keyboard, right above the row with ctrl, super, alt, spacebar, etc. It would pretty much exclusively be used for mmo/rts games, which is kind of redundant since in those you can usually bind your actions to whatever you want, but binding shit to z, x, c, v, b with shift modifiers (what I currently do), just feels weird. But as I said, I dont want companies to start changing the keyboard layout around too much. Next thing you know someone at a development meeting will suggest the idea to cut out the escape key, or to turn the [];'./,./ keys into a single button that makes you scroll through a menu to choose which one you want, or something retarded like that

>>59199297
>not having a touchbar instead of useless fn key
Stay poor /g/

How can a power user live with the Ctrl key all the way to the left? Do they actually physically lift their hand from the home row to use it, or do they have more dexterity in their pinky than I?

>>59199355
why do you make up stories

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>>59204667
agreed

>>59207607
what are those keycaps called? is there a name for these types of keycaps?

>>59209233

fagbuttons

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Control key should go here.

>>59199297
>fn is in the bottom left corner on all my thickbads and fagbooks
The top one is correct.

>>59199440
CAPS LOCK IS FUCKING FANTASTIC!

>>59199297
They do it because they're Fn stupid.

>>59199440
HOW THE FUCK IS CAPSLOCK USELESS?

>>59199297
Too bad the 1005HA chokes on Lubuntu; the keyboard is pretty nice.

>>59199297
The ideal is to have the FN button after the altgr and have the super button after then left control

>>59209233
It's a IIgs keyboard.

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>>59199440
>not mapping caps lock to esc

>>59199440
WHAT THE FUCK

>>59199297
I wouldn't use the 1005HA as an example of anything. But, I guess it was right this time.

>>59199297
Lol, you're just retarded.

>>59199297
I have a thinkpad with ctrl on the right, I keep trying to copy-paste things and then wondering why it didn't work
drives me nuts

>>59204551
this

>>59204551
ultimately makes your keyboard smaller, unless you want to pick another key to make useless with AutoHotkey or whatever

>>59199297
i know apple did that with my mac to piss me off whenever i need to bootcamp into windows 7.

>>59204551
its kind of a necessary evil since laptops are too small to have dedicated controls for volume and screen brightness and shit.

>>59199297
They say that those who use the ctrl key have more control over their work, but those who use fn are more functional users

>>59211096
That's alt news

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>>59211200

>>59199297
on my x230 this was just a change in the bios

>>59210814
How often do you have to press Esc?

>>59199392
and I was sad when lappys lost the menu key and I had to learn ctrl+shift+f10

>>59211933
>How often do you have to press Esc?

You Emacs virgin.

>>59199440
>useless Capslock key
Non-programmer detected.

>>59199297
Anyone who does not use fn

>>59200633
underrTED POST

>>59206417
>How can a power user live with the Ctrl key all the way to the left? Do they actually physically lift their hand from the home row to use it, or do they have more dexterity in their pinky than I?
You know you can, like, pivot your wrist kind of toward you and to the right to extend the potential comfortable range of your pinky, right?

>>59211933
>to exit different terminal applications
>to pause games
>to unfocus text fields
>to close context menus
>vim

>>59199297
The real question is why is there a >< key next to the spacebar.

>>59199470
They press fn and don't notice anything in the os, and they'll assume the key is broken.

>>59200938
Also this.

>>59204551
It should be on the right side of the board, together with del, home, end and that bunch. Given that the keys you pair it with are at the function row, you're going to use two fingers for each use case anyways, very differently from the use cases of control, alt and shift.
I mean, you're not going to press fn+z or fn+c.

>>59212642
Why would you use capslock for anything other than naming constants and macros and why would you need the capslock when you're just typing alphabetic characters (rather than switching back and forth between alpha and grammatical).

>>59212554
Emacs uses escape more often than Vim. You silly Vim folks think jumping in and out of Insert mode is so cool, but Emacs uses escape to compile the world.

>>59199440
All other opinions are wrong

>>59199440
This. On a mac.

>>59199297
The bottom left corner, where Control normally always resides, is where it should be.

>>59213183
Oddly OS X makes this even easier than any Linux desktop environment.

OS X = best Unix™.

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>>59213247
You're a little baby.

>>59213386
This, Command being the main key for keybindings is wonderful.

>>59213393
I like having Caps Lock and don't use Control even remotely often enough to justify having a nonstandard layout for it to be easier pressed.

>>59213386
How can is it easier on osx?
It is really easy on Linux.

>>59213466
>go to system preferences
>click keyboard
>click modifier keys

Even FreeBSD is easier, in the setup you can choose 'swap control and caps' and it will stay, system-wide, even in X.

Most Linux distros have separate console and X configurations for the keyboard (as well as xmodmap being available) except Debian and family, where there is a universal keyboard config file. It's advised to read the manuals for all methods in any event.

>>59213533
*in freebsd not swap, but caps AS control

>>59213533
>Most Linux distros have separate console and X configurations for the keyboard
Explain how is it a bad thing

>>59213547
>>59213547
Needing two config files when one would suffice is bad.

>>59213547
I never said it was 'bad' but to figure it all out you're going to be reading man pages, editing config files, etc.

FreeBSD's method is easier because you have one easy option to switch it across the whole OS, and OS X's the easiest because you can just click on some fucking buttons and it's done in 2 seconds.

>>59203229
>implying their top row is primarily function keys and not the media bullshit
They've no idea what the fn key or the function keys do

File: Screenshot_20170303_082141.png (105KB, 1004x744px) Image search: [Google]

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>>59213533
so pic related vs

clear lock
clear control
add control = Caps_Lock Control_L Control_R
keycode 66 = Control_L Caps_Lock NoSymbol NoSymbol

>>59199297
ctrl+fn lmao

>>59213556
Do you use the TTY that often that this is a problem?
I mean, unless you redesign the entire layout, does it really affect you that capslock is only ctrl when you use the computer normally?

>>59213726
Using it at all is enough for it to be a problem. I shouldn't need another config file for the same configuration.

>>59213765
So your claim goes from "it is easier on osx" to bsd's config also works in tty so it is better?
Just stop using the tty for anything more than fixing problems with X and use a terminal emulator like a normal person.

>>59213819
I never made either of those claims.
>Just stop using the tty for anything more than fixing problems with X
Even if I did this would still be an issue the moment I opened a TTY

>>59213830
You get problems with X?
nice try apple shill.

>>59213856
No, even if I did only use the TTY for fucking with X it'd still be an issue because I'd either need that second config file or have to deal with fucked up keybindings.

>>59213882
you are describing an issue that is irrelevant to every linux user.
The TTY is only used in emergencies.
Having to stick to a stock keyboard in times of emergency is not a bad thing.

I have broken X a few times during the last decade and every time, I knew what I did and changing it back is not a lengthy process.
Having the control where it says so on the keyboard instead of the more convenient placement is not a big deal.
If you have to fix something on another persons computer, the keyboard would also be different, and that is more likely to happen than X breaking.

>>59213969
>you are describing an issue that is irrelevant to every linux user.
>The TTY is only used in emergencies.
4u
>Having to stick to a stock keyboard in times of emergency is not a bad thing
Having my keybindings fucked up is certainly a bad thing
>If you have to fix something on another persons computer, the keyboard would also be different
The kind of person that'd need help fixing their computer isn't the kind of person that'd have keybindings in the first place and given it is a standard layout I'd be able to use it.

>>59213998
What keybindings are you talking about then?
I was assuming you meant in your editor.

>>59214021
Just making shit function more like OS X

>>59213969
>The TTY is only used in emergencies.
lol

>>59214044
please give an example where you would use the TTY over a terminal and the reason isn't "I don't have a terminal"?

>>59214057
Why start X when you can accomplish something just as easily without it?

>>59214057
What if X isn't even installed?

>>59214068
>>59214087
then you only have 1 config.

>>59213685
>wm specific
>doesn't work in the console

>>59214099
Not if you use X

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I don't understand why keyboard layouts haven't moved into the Linux kernel for speed yet though.

File: 1219036563772.jpg (17KB, 285x226px) Image search: [Google]

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The number of anons who put Control between Shift and Tab is encouraging!

>>59214120
So you are describing the inconveniences of a person that doesn't use X all the time because he is cool and doesn't have X installed, but he sometimes uses it and then he has to configure the keyboard for something different.

Sure. It must be a pain for that guy.
>>59214118
but it works in every terminal emulator, something most people use when they have X.

And yes, terminal emulators is faster than TTY's in all categories.
If you use anything that might use X, starting X and then use a terminal emulator is faster.

>>59214179
>So you are describing the inconveniences of a person that doesn't use X all the time because he is cool and doesn't have X installed
No, you're just assuming you're only arguing with one person.

>>59214179
>terminal emulator
>when they have X
Lots of machines without X anon.

>And yes, terminal emulators is faster than TTY's in all categories.
Even for watching movies with omxplayer? See now you're getting into crazy-town, yes people choose not to run X on their embedded Pi3s sometimes...

>>59214191
I have to, because otherwise there is multiple idiots loose

>>59214241
If there's more than one reply to your post it's rather safe to assume there's more than one person in the argument. Nice ad hominem, by the way. That'll surely win you the argument.

>>59214241
yore mom

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>>59199440
>needing to map it in the first place

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>>59214321
Face it anon, many classic and otherwise bitchin' keyboards have a caps lock key where control should be.

>>59199297
bottom one oh my TUCKING god do not put the GOSHDARN function key where the control key goes you stupid motherFRIENDS

>>59199297
Get rid of the useless windows key and make the ctrl key twice as wide.

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>>59199297
those keyboard both look like they'd give you cancer in about five seconds

>>59199297
Both wrong it should be beside space

I noticed that the issue the x220 keyboard has, for instance, is that whether you can swap the ctrl and fn keys on the BIOS, one is bigger than the other. So you can't swap the keys physically.

>>59215780
you could probably buy some stickers

>>59210814
This. Emacsfags please go.

>>59199355
Using a keyboard makes you a super user.

Normies use touch

Well at least on smaller/compact keyboards the Fn key s going to be used much more than Ctrl, at least that is the case for me anyway so I don't mind it.

However on a full sized keyboard I would not find it usable.