/dpt/ - Daily Programming Thread

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>>58846135
SAME FUCKING IMAGE EVERY FUCKING GODDAMN THREAD I'M TIRE DOF THIS PEDOPHILIC SHIT ON THIS DEAD FUCKING LANGUAGE ON THIS DEAD FUCKING BOARD

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>58846135
Cute boy

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>>58846135
Next step is to integrate with webgl

>>58846155
Dumb redditfrog poster

>>58846155
Goddamn it /dpt/. You've been having this war since at least before I entered university more than 3 years ago.

>>58846171
We've been having this war a good five years now.

>>58846171
There's no war.
The 3 star programmer of Shimoshina Academy is welcome on /dpt/ any time!

>>58846135
Haskell performs terribly and is bloated garbage. It's a good thing its usage in industry is minimal.

>>58846171

The traps from other boards are very persistent at trying to push their degenerate mannerisms on /dpt/ .

As for the on topic discussion... Literally don't feel like coding anything right now D:

>>58846135
>>58846155
>>58846171
>>58846201
It comes down to one thing: Programming doesn't need to be sexualized.

>>58846171
lmao

>>58846218
Code is sexy.

>>58846201
>Literally don't feel like coding anything right now D:
That's why you came to bitch about OP and shitpost? Flawless reddit cancer

>>58846135
thank you for using an anime image.

>>58846171
Hi Eva-02

https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php?title=Daily_programming_thread&action=history

>>58846135
>

sizeo(char)

thoughts?

>>58846135
/dpt/ what is the point of learning a programming language when everything important (compression, emulators, operating systems, media editors) have already been made and the rest is just cleaning up somebody else's project that you will never get any glory for?

>>58846243
Won't compile.

>>58846248
Money.

>>58846248
fun, shekels

>>58846248
Are you implying you don't need to know how to program to clean and optimize already written programs?

>>58846252
fuck i misspelled sizeof

>>58846243
>

sizeof(char)

Rolling my own NFA regex implementation.

Any thoughts on this shitty code?

It is for Exercism's hamming challenge. Basically you are given two strings and need compare each index and increase value of the set for each different pair.

(ie "AAGT" and "AGGT", would have a value of 1)

Here's my solution, last time someone blew my mind with a WAY simpler method.

  def self.compute(sidea,sideb)
    raise ArgumentError if sideb.length != sidea.length 
    hamming_distance = 0                               
    sda = sidea.split('')                               
    sdb = sideb.split('')
    sda.each_index do |x|                               
      hamming_distance += 1 if sda.values_at(x) != sdb.values_at(x)
    end
 return hamming_distance                                 
end

>>58846248
>implying those things aren't primitive shit

>>58846267
Completely fucking useless, the standard defines sizeof(char) to be 1.

>>58846243
>>58846267
Guaranteed to evaluate to 1 in any conforming implementation (in a non-conforming implementation LITERALLY EVERYTHING is undefined behavior), so there's really no point of it unless it's to help make the code more readable. Usually it's not necessary, since in any context dealing with object sizes you're implicitly using bytes already (and the C Standard says a byte is whatever a char takes up, even if it's not 8 bits).

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>>58846240
My sides

I make regular use of a compile-time static array size macro.
It always works, but is it undefined behavior?

#define static_size(p) (sizeof(p) / sizeof(*p))

>>58846336
just keep track of the array size with a variable

>>58846227

I've never been on reddit.. I've been on and off /dpt since the anime wars started. The longer you've been here the more likely you are to shitpost.

At least the ruby and python shills have left and are no longer fighting over threads

Are lisps still relevant?

>>58846377
Is anything really relevant?

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>>58846364
>At least the ruby and python shills have left and are no longer fighting over threads

Goddamn I fucking hated that Python troll. Every single fucking thread he'd spam his python copypasta. Every fucking thread

Working on a program in C that executes a python shell script in bash and storing the output using fgets();

The problem I'm having is I don't know for sure what the buffer size of the output is going to be. In the python script, the code looks like the following:
<code>
timestamped () {
# Get time, then --simple in one line, finally combine into CSV format.
epoch="$( date '+%Y-%m-%d, %H:%M' )"
speeds="$( echo $( $memf --simple | sed -e 's/^.*: //' -e 's/ .*s$/, /' ))"
# ^on a single line: ping, download, upload speeds -- given output:
# Ping: 22.602 ms
# Download: 0.62 Mbit/s
# Upload: 0.25 Mbit/s
echo "$epoch, $speeds" | sed -e 's/,$//'
# Sample result: "2015-03-13, 19:25, 22.602, 0.62, 0.25"
}
</code>

I'm not super familiar with stream editor commands, so I'm not sure how the output is specified.
Ultimately, I'm just trying to figure out if
<code>
Sample result: "2015-03-13, 19:25, 22.602, 0.62, 0.25"
<code>
will always be formatted as such, or if, for example, the ping might display 22.602 one run, and then 22.6 the next (same with upload/download)

Any halp is apprekiated

>>58846350
Basically I initialize a stack array of char arrays with an initializer list and this keeps track of the length of the array without having to edit the value in multiple places.

>>58846377
Languages in popular use tend towards LISP over time.

>>58846414
It was a bot tho.

>>58846416
Here it is properly formatted, sorry

Working on a program in C that executes a python shell script in bash and storing the output using fgets();

The problem I'm having is I don't know for sure what the buffer size of the output is going to be. In the python script, the code looks like the following:

timestamped () {
# Get time, then --simple in one line, finally combine into CSV format.
epoch="$( date '+%Y-%m-%d, %H:%M' )" 
speeds="$( echo $( $memf --simple | sed -e 's/^.*: //' -e 's/ .*s$/, /' ))"
# ^on a single line: ping, download, upload speeds -- given output:
# Ping: 22.602 ms
# Download: 0.62 Mbit/s
# Upload: 0.25 Mbit/s
echo "$epoch, $speeds" | sed -e 's/,$//'
# Sample result: "2015-03-13, 19:25, 22.602, 0.62, 0.25"
}

I'm not super familiar with stream editor commands, so I'm not sure how the output is specified.
Ultimately, I'm just trying to figure out if

Sample result: "2015-03-13, 19:25, 22.602, 0.62, 0.25"
will always be formatted as such, or if, for example, the ping might display 22.602 one run, and then 22.6 the next (same with upload/download)

Any halp is apprekiated

>>58846421
What does this mean?

>>58846442
That sure doesn't look like python to me!

>>58846442
It's been a long day... here's the last part of that but without my autism

I'm not super familiar with stream editor commands, so I'm not sure how the output is specified.
Ultimately, I'm just trying to figure out if

Sample result: "2015-03-13, 19:25, 22.602, 0.62, 0.25"

will always be formatted as such, or if, for example, the ping might display 22.602 one run, and then 22.6 the next (same with upload/download)

>>58846453
The more time passes, the closer most languages get to LISP.

>>58846463
what do you mean by this?

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I wrote a Python module for ripping user accounts from a site but I left it short of turning it in to an actual module with logging, setup.py, all the stuff for turning it in to something I could put on pip and setup with a pip install

Thinking about that shit just totally killed my desire to work on it. What should I do

>>58846243

Don't put parens around sizeof, it's not a function, at least do

(sizeof char)

>>58846475
Languages get more LISP-like over time.

>>58846421
>>58846463
Doesn't that mean Lisps are becoming less relevant with time?

>>58846428

It was definitely a bot... With some user interference involved there were often human responses from said op of the copy / paste posts.

>>58846475
They're probably referring to Greenspun's Tenth Rule.

>>58846493
It depends what you mean by 'relevant'. By the time popular languages start having prefix syntax and real macros, knowing LISP will be a benefit.

>>58846499
No.

>>58846457
O shit u right. I guess it's just executing bash commands? How would I determine the string length of the output then, or if it is specifically formatted for a certain length?

>>58846479
Consult a doctor since you may have ADHD.

>>58846506
>By the time popular languages start having prefix syntax
They won't.

>and real macros
We get it already, you're homo(iconic).

>>58846499
>They're
Did you just not assume anon's gender, you shitlord?

>>58846525
>They won't.
Maybe not, but everything else is coming to pass.

>>58846535
What would Haskell look like with a more lispy syntax?

>>58846538
You can write Haskell with lispy syntax.

Just write all your infix operators like this:

((*) 2 ((+) 5 3))

>>58846538
somehow it would look even worse

>>58846499
haha like emacs LMAO

>>58846559
Not a fan desu. Would be much better as

(* 2 (+ 5 3))

And what about do-notation?

>>58846531

(mapcar (constantly 'they) '(he she))
(THEY THEY)

>>58846579
Do-notation is just syntactic sugar for (>>) and (>>=), which can be written as described above.

>>58846538
See Liskell.

>>58846525
Most languages already have prefix syntax, only they use it for functions and not ``operators".

>>58846490

I don't think programming languages are drifting towards lisp to any great degree. A lot of the ideas in lisp are not copied and some good/popular non-lisp ideas don't make it back in.

The whole Lisp-Scheme ecosystem has a lot of internal diversity that people sweep under the carpet, and a lot of ideas in it that haven't been copied like pervasive dynamic scope, linked lists as the best-supported collection class, expansive, difficult-to-reason-about object systems like CLOS).

Lisps seem rather bad at adopting language features that have proven useful, but weren't pioneered in Lisp first. One example is algebraic data types. It's possible to add them to a dynamically typed language, just have a mechanism for declaring ADTs and their associated data constructors. Another one is C-like control flow. while, for, and return for nonlocal exit would be welcome additions to Lisp. These constructions are easy to reason about and cover most of your needs.

>>58846601
PHPscript

>>58846621
see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/m_loop.htm

>>58846603

Operators are different from functions in more ways than just syntax. In C, operators support a limited form of ad-hoc polymorphism. + works on ints, chars, floats, pointers, doubles, ...

In C-like object aoriented languages, operators tend to pattern after methods rather than functions. Even in Java, + is polymorphic.

I won't comment on whether this distinction is necessary or even helpful.

>>58846621
I think you would be able to appreciate it more had you been around in 1970 (I wasn't).

Things that were novel in LISP and have been adopted by other languages since include:
GC, first-class functions, expression-based evaluation, first-class symbols.
While some of these ideas are from mathematics, LISP was the first language family to implement them.

Furthermore, languages have been becoming increasingly high-level and malleable for years, particularly with the rise of Python/Ruby/etc, even Java.

I suspect that the final call for human programming with be logic languages, but I struggle to deny that we are trending towards LISP at the moment.

Not a LISP user, by the way.

>>58846621
Is there anything good about dynamic scope? It just seems confusing to me.

>>58846135
Thank you for using this image

>>58846621
Haskell has constructs that behave like C control flow, but aren't built into the language

>>58846664

Hmm ... if you a loop expression inside a loop expression inside a function can you exit the outermost loop without an explicit tag?

Anyone got some good WPF resources? I am using it for work and I'm barely keeping my head above water having never used it.

>>58846702
Hmm, implicitly, not sure. I want to say no. Explicitly, sure.

>>58846670
>I struggle to deny that we are trending towards LISP at the moment.
In concept, not execution. Lisp has a lot of really nice features, but in order to support them it needs to be dynamically typed, interpreted, etc. So, in a sense, Lisp cheated. A good chunk of PLT is basically taking the nice things Lisp "cheated" to get and realizing them in more practical environments like von Neumann computing and formal mathematics.

>>58846702
>>58846797
To add, are you referring to using something like return in a C nested loop? I'd say the closest analogue would be something like

return-from

in CL.

>>58846670

I'm assuming Fortran and C are approximate contemporaries of Lisp, more or less.

> GC good point
> first-class functions I think C has first class function pointers ... not sure when they were added to the language. I don't think Fortran has anything equivalent to references to functions even today. Not sure about the timeline here.
> expression-based evaluation -- Fortran and C have expression grammars ... compared to assembly which does not. Are you saying that everything is an expression in Lisp?
> first-class symbols -- YES. Thank you. I really wish more languages would copy this instead of just using strings or enums or magical constants.
> dynamic typing -- that's a big thing that lisp pioneered.

> logic programming.
I've been trying to get more into Prolog and Mercury, but I find them really confusing.

>>58846830
And with static types?

>>58846855
With static types and effects and everything.

>>58846853
>first-class symbols -- YES. Thank you. I really wish more languages would copy this instead of just using strings or enums or magical constants.
what does this mean?

>>58846878
Not them but I think they mean "identifiers" can be manipulated just like any other data type. In contrast to C, where identifiers are basically just a compile-time construct.

>>58846855
>>58846875
Like ornaments and erasure - they're metaprogramming for inductive data types.

>>58846894
Oh, I get you

>>58846850

Yes. My point wasn't so much that you can't emulate this behavior with the loop macro and tags, but that C-like control flow constructs have a good power to weight ratio.

I also lied a little bit, now that I think about it. C doesn't have a foreach (because scalar-oriented language) and doesn't have a few other things I take for granted in non-C languages like labelled for and while loops...

Hmm... let me back up a second.

If I had a lisp-like language with a construction kind of like

 defun 

(maybe called

 defproc 

?) but with for, while, foreach, do...while, if, break, continue, and return (except not using a continuation. return is syntax, not a value!), then that would cover almost all of my needs for control flow, be easy to reason about, and not introduce a lot of syntactic noise.

>>58846749
The msdn articles and magazines are good, you should check them, Illustrated WPF is a good resource for beginners too.
Or you could employ me :^)

>>58846916
>>58846894

In Lisp, Ruby and Erlang, symbols are a first-class concept. It's hard to describe what they are other than an opaque value that you can compare but not do much else with. Ints are bad because you can add them. You can concatenate and reverse strings and perform other operations that don't make sense in some contexts.

Calling them identifiers is a little misleading because they aren't assignable in every language.

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why does qt have qdebug when qdebug can't even do what std::cout does?

>>58846830
So what exactly is von Neumann computing? Or a von Neumann architecture? I hear these words maybe once or twice a year and have no idea what they mean.

>>58846853
Lisp also supports arbitrary size arithmetic to allow integers of any size (within memory limits of w/e system/computer it's running on) and other totally crazy shit most other lang's don't allow.

If you're interested in languages there's this:
https://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/summerschool/summer16/curriculum.php

Goes with this book (free draft)
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/pfpl.html

It's grad level seminar's but accessible, good overview here: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/courses/ppl/phil.html

>>58847059
that's not very crazy

>>58846994
>Or you could employ me :^)
Sorry, I'm a new hire, I can't make complicated decisions like that :^)

>>58847035
It's easily googled.

>>58847080
Good, I've been searching for jobs like for a month, and only nailed two interviews; one irl and the other by phone. Btw, what other things do you use at work?, mostly MS shit?

>>58846955
You'd need to support statements on top of expressions I guess in the case of return. I think everything is an expression in CL.

>>58847035
>>58847097
But to not be that much of an asshole, it's basically all of our ordinary computers. Imperative, programs stored in memory, separate ALU, control unit, memory, etc.

>>58847097
I've read the description. Something about not having a separate bus / storage area for code and data.

And something about a von Neumann bottleneck where CPUs aren't getting faster because of all the time they spend fetching data.

That's, like, as far as I've gotten googling random stuff.

>>58847059
Have you been to the pl theory summer school thing? I want to go this year but don't really understand the application process. Last year I missed the deadline.

>>58847136
Maybe it would be easier to describe a computer that is not von Neumann, like a Lisp machine or a graph reduction machine, that operates in a completely different way than by reading and writing words in memory and registers. Hence my comment about Lisp "cheating".

>>58847149

or a Turing machine ... because the head has this crazy state transition graph inside of it which is totally different from the state on the tape.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is there a canonical "minimum additional capability" you'd need to add the Turing machine construction to get a Von Neumann machine (or something equivalent* to it) out of it?

* I have no idea how to even define what two abstract machines being "equivalent" even means.

>>58847111
Same here senpai. I literally started yesterday.

We use MS shit like Outlook, but we also use ReSharper, and Octopus CI along side TFS for sprint planning. There are some other stuff like sql server to generate ssrs reports, but it's mainly just VS, TFS, and email filtering.

Any offers?

>>58847182
In theory a von Neumann machine with infinite memory and word size would be equivalent to an abstract Turing machine. I think. I haven't done much of this handy wavey ivory towery stuff.

>>58847182

poor phrasing.

* I have no idea how to even define "equivalence" between abstract machines.

>>58846336
sizeof(p) should be sizeof p. Putting brackets around an array causes it to decay to a pointer under ISO C. Other than that it is fine.

>>58847196
I thought TFS was a VCS like git, but this sounds like what we use JIRA for... is it an issue tracker or VCS?

Is there a good language which is decidable? I'm really pissed off by all of this "Turing" nonsense.

>>58847234
Take the Coq.

>>58847234
Coq

https://coq.inria.fr

Agda

http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php

Charity

http://pll.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/charity1/www/home.html

>>58847216
It seems to be like an all in one thing.

It keeps track of our code like a normal VCS, and it has a place for us to access the sprint board, tasks, and time spent vs time estimated. I don't know about an issue tracker, but I would imagine it's there too.

>>58847234
Prolog

programming is so easy

>>58847267

primitive recursive prolog would suck ass.

>>58847259
>>58847255
Can you demonstrate how they are decidable? A short version will suffice. I just want to know that you aren't a Turingtard
>>58847267
Is it actually usable?

>>58847259
I don't know about Charity but Coq and Agda have axioms and postulates respectively which can lead to non-termination.

>>58847149

How the hell does a Lisp machine even work anyways?

>>58847262

Are you at an agile shop? I'm not a huge agile fan.

>>58847309
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine#Initial_development

Basically, shit ran in parallel.

>>58847298
Yeah...

>>58847301
>Is it actually usable?
It's got a very specific use-case. If your interests and its strengths coincide, then yes. For generalized programming, hell no.

>>58847309
parens soldered into the boards

>>58847304

Fuck, my ignorance is showing. Do Coq and Agda come with any axioms/postulates "built-in"? Is it possible to restrict yourself to a subset of these languages (say by not introducing new axioms) and get a notation that only describes terminating programs?

If describing both is too hard, just Coq then. I've tried off and on to do parts of Software Foundations so I'm marginally familiar with it.

>>58847337
>It's got a very specific use-case
Like what?
>For generalized programming
I just can't be bothered to use Turing garbage anymore.

>>58847347
I believe they're all part of the standard libraries.

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>>58847344
I like you

>>58847348
Logic programming

>>58847313
Yeah I am. We have daily stand ups with just our manager. We don't talk to anyone outside of our team during them, which actually makes them useful.

What qualms do you have with the approach in particular?

>>58847035
It basically just means instructions and data are stored in the same memory (and, by extension, that instructions and data are to some extent interchangeable).

>>58847416
It's a pointless meme that lowers productivity.

>>58847411
I just want to write my autistic code in a non-garbage language

>>58846267
I always still write that to be clear that im passing in an amount of bytes

>>58847468
You can't escape the Von Neumann curse unless you get a non-Von Neumann computer. You can still get a Lisp Machine, but it'll probably be expensive and it won't really do you much good in the Internet Age.

Writing a package manager in C.

>>58847416

Don't let my bitterness bother you if you have a process you like and appreciate.

Our sprints are a week long and we place a lot of emphasis on the "story points" assigned to a particular ticket.

A lot of the time the tickets aren't very well spelled out and you're frequently jumping from system to system.

I'd appreciate larger sized work items and more autonomy.

>>58847491
cpm?

>>58847491

Oh, that's cool. I'm trying to write a package manager too. I was thinking of making something kind of like installpkg &c on Slackware (with a super simple tar format that anyone can make and no dependency resolution), but with some support for transactions and backups.

What's your idea?

>>58847488
I just need to escape the faggot curse also known as the Turing curse. Or does escaping it imply escaping the Von Neumann curse as well?
>Internet Age
I don't need the Internet. I just need a non-garbage-non-faggot-non-Turing language

>>58846671
Its very useful in specific circumstances.
For example in racket, standard outputting functions like write-string, display, etc by default use (current-output-port) to write to, which is usually stdout. However at any time you can do

(parameterize ([current-output-port my-output-port])
   ... some code ...)

Any code in the enclosed block will write to my-output-port instead. So for instance you could hook up a file port so that the debugger output gets written there instead of to the console, or you could even pass in a tcp socket output. And this is all dynamic.
Also in racket there is a library for plotting data and all of the configuration is done with parameters, so if you want to change the color of the lines for some plots you would parameterize it.
Dynamic scoping can be thought of like the benefits of global variables, without the downsides.

>>58847452
>>58847499
>lowers productivity
I can understand this point. My first real day turned from a simple bug fix into a complete overhaul of a particular menu. It was like magic, and it was because the way the code was being written changed mid project, and no one went back to make it consistent.

I'm too young yet to have a real opinion on a methodology, so hopefully this place will help me with that.

I absolutely see why you don't like it. That sounds like a waste of time, with emphasis in the wrong places. One week sprints sound completely retarded.

>>58846671

environment variables are dynamically scoped and they are incredibly useful.

>>58847499
Why the hell do you space your posts like that, redditor?

>>58846955
The reason lisp will never be a blub language is that yes you could simply add all of these missing features to lisp and suddenly you have a more powerful language (although, i disagree with your sentiments towards these imperative looping constructs, i don't think they are as useful as you believe they are.)

>forces every object to act like a shared pointer

why is C# good again?

>>58847630
Value types that can be stored on the stack.

>>58847614
Honestly, I wrote way too much and then cut it down a bit.

>>58847652
So you won't deny being a redditor? As I predicted.

Problem with Lisp, so far as I can tell, is that it doesn't constrain the human mind enough. It's in effect even bigger than anything humans can comprehend, and it forces the mind to expand to discover the space, rather than contract to fit into the space. Give a man a tool that can do one thing, and he'll use it. Give a man a tool that can do everything, and he won't.

>>58847614
>>58847656
Do you realize how autistic you sound?

>>58847660
>Give a man a tool that can do everything, and he won't.
This is where creativity comes in

>>58847660
another problem is it's shit

>>58847656
I don't know why you replied to that post like you're me.

>>58847667
You should leave.

>>58847667
this

>>58847660
That is a humongous pile of shit. You should research the history of Lisp before you post retarded nonsense.

>>58847667
>>58847683
samefag

>>58847679
Because for all intents and purposes I am you and you are me.

>>58847673
>>58847691
frig off homos
lisp squad report in!

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>>58847694
dis some serious lain shit

>>58847660
>it thinks it's a human
how lovely

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>>58847692
wrong

>>58847708
webfag

>>58847708
>what are proxies

>>58847714
>>58847717
>being this autistic
Did I say you could reply to me??

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>>58847705
i love lain but i don't love you
so you can't be lain

>>58847722
that is me, you retard

>>58847656

You are not the websites you visit, mon ami.

>>58847731
Please prove this you fucking retard.

>>58847731
>i am not responsible for my actions

>>58847630

>shared pointer
Pretty sure .NET doesn't use reference counting.

>>58847731
Wake up.

>>58847619

Macros are not a cure-all. You can write macros to imitate a lisp-1 in a lisp2 but it's going to be ugly and complex and might not handle all the edge cases.

>>58847764
I'm pretty sure it does

>>58847774
Can it count itself as a reference?

>>58847745
>>58847760
>>58847768

Being serious for a moment, what's with all the hostility / faux-hostility?

>>58847778
you're a reference

>>58847793
Fuck all the way off

>>58847793
Fuck you for asking

>>58847793
Not an argument

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this blender deal is hard

I wanna try my hand at modelling nu-abstract pieces in a board game.

>>58847800
Can I count myself as a reference to myself?

>>58847793
suck my cock nigger

>>58847793
faux hof

>>58847832
>using blender for modeling

>>58847813
>>58847814
>>58847829

Cheer up. I'm sure tomorrow will be a better day.

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>>58847866
wat

>>58847871
Get the fuck out of here, you shit-eating moron.

Want to learn to write *nix drivers, mainly BSD, but probably starting with Linux. Anyone here ever written one?

I've nearly finished nand2tetris so I have a basic understanding of low level stuff, obliviously I'll need more. Where to next?

>>58847885
>her

>>58847891
>BSD
also interested.

>>58847832
>>58847885
This has nothing to do with programming.
>>>/v/

>>58847900
I want to program my hands to do blender art

weren't you the one making the argument that programming isn't just about personal computer?!!?

JESUS YOU ARE A NAZI

>>58847923
>this is a non argument
Remove yourself from this thread.

>>58847948
remove your cock from my anus


I WANT TO KNOW HOW TO MODEL IN BLENDER

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Messing around with Perl. It's still a fun language.

>>58847771
When a macro is complex enough it becomes a DSL. Implementing a lisp in a lisp is just like implementing an interpreter in a host language, so if you dont implement it correctly (which may not be easy), you cant expect it to behave correctly.

>>58847955
Lisp people use macros when it isn't remotely necessary.
They seem to be allergic to functions.

>>58847977
>using macros in a language centered around lambda calculus

>>58847955

I guess my claim is that at a certain point it becomes like claiming that C is good because you can write a Python interpreter in C. (Assuming for a second that Python is good.)

I don't just want freedom and expressivity from a programming language, I want some sanely chosen defaults so I can understand stuff other people have written.

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>>58847731
>The person you are isn't dictated by the things you spend time on.
>I'm more than my decisions!

>>58847990
So you're limited in the brain department and you want a language which accounts for this? Got it. Nothing wrong with that though if you're honest. Not everyone has good genes.

>>58848012
>tfw to smart to learn programming

>>58848012

That isn't what I said. You can basically implement another language inside of Lisp and use Lisp as a host platform. The language you define might even be good. At a certain point though, you have to take a step back and think about what you've actually done. Lisp the notation was essentially inadequate for your purposes, so you replaced it with something else.

>>58848070
DSLs could be standard library

>>58848089

For things like the loop macro, the format mini-language, and CLOS, I'm really not sure what to count them as.

This is one of the reasons I haven't really gotten into Lisp, it has a lot of features that overlap conceptually.

>>58848118
learn Haskell instead

>>58847992

You're probably not going to, but could you fill me in on the reddit hate thing?

proggit, /g/, and hacker news are all kinda similar in terms of "it's a tech forum" and general content. This one is just a little faster paced, the discussions aren't centered around articles, and there's a lot of consumer electronics stuff.

>>58848135

Which Haskell? I'm losing track of all the GHC extensions.

Actually I am working on a bank website for my bank!

>>58848177
Most extensions, but plain old Haskell is pretty good too

>>58848203
Not him, but what are some extensions I should learn first? I'm only familiar with plain haskell.

>>58848220
ExistentialQuantification
GADTs
MultiParamTypeClasses

is a good start

>>58848203

How do you feel about the module system and Haskell records?

>>58848246
Very shit.
There's a library called record that uses a ton of extensions including th and is apparently half decent.

>>58848231

Do you know a good practical use case for ExistentialQuantification?

I've had to use the similarly-flavored RankNTypes/Rank2Types before in order to store polymorphic values in a tree once.

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monads

>>58848260

Do you know what the deal is with Backpack? there was a meet up about it a while ago, but I couldn't make it.

>>58848279
https://github.com/ezyang/ghc-proposals/blob/backpack/proposals/0000-backpack.rst

>>58848260

I like OCaml's approach to records. Record fields have to be unique in your module (I think types have to be local to a module), but you have nested modules so it isn't that bad.

>>58848301
I think Haskell with anonymous records and the lens library would fix a lot of shit.

>>58848246
>>58848275
>>58848301
>>58848203
>>58848177
>>58848135
>>58848308

>>>/fpt/

>press button
>program explodes
>put some debug messages in code to see what happens
>press button
>program executes flawlessly

this is the worst, i hope i just forgot to build the program before

Dunno if this belongs here or in /sqt/, but would anyone be able to explain to me what's going wrong with my code here:

https://hastebin.com/owinijehoz.py

These are just snippets from a larger program I'm doing as part of a computing course, and we're focusing on pygame right now (it's a general programming course, so we use python as just an easy introduction to make it easier to understand general concepts). Essentially, i want to have a construction queue for these buildings on the tile, but it seems I'm not allowed to locate a value in a dict inside a list like:

ListName[index]['dictvalue']

I get an index out of range error, specifically on line 26. In my mind, this makes perfect logical sense and should function properly, but clearly it doesn't, and from my searches on stack overflow, apparently you can't approach locating variables within dicts inside lists like this?

Could someone explain to me in simpler terms why this wouldn't work and lead me in the direction of finding a solution?

Thanks

>>58848412
while item < len

>>58848355
easy, take the debug messages back out

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>>58848441
Excuse me while I kill myself

>>58848520
for using Python

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getting there

I did this on accident

>>58846135
sup

>>58848301
>>58848308

In fact here's a solution to the "context" proposal that some people want, e.g.

fun1 param1 param2 x xs = ...
fun2 param1 param2 ys = ...
val1 param1 param2 = ...
->

context param1 param2 =
    fun1 x xs = ...
    fun2 ys = ...
    val1 = ...


you can do it like this:


afunction :: i -> j -> Contextful1 (fun1 :: a -> b -> c, fun2 :: x -> y, val1 :: z)
afunction param1 param2 = Contextful1 { ... }  -- record wildcards
  where
    fun1 x xs = ...
    fun2 ys = ...
    val = ...


Currently you'd need to also do this

data Contextful1 = Contextful1 { fun1 :: a -> b -> c, fun2 :: x -> y, val1 :: z }
afunction :: i -> j -> Contextful1
...

>>58848655
Plus this way you could also use MonadReader.

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can somebody tell me what n should be? how do i figure out how many bytes of padding i need, what's the logic? i moved to two threads now but the speed increase is only like 10% when it logically it should have doubled. i guess that must be because of those issues that anon was talking about?

Here quick, someone make a gui to this. Maybe a wallpaper?

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>>58848773
whoopskabam

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??

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>>58848832
>>58848786
Impressive.

I don't know which book to go with between K&R, C Programming A Modern Approach and The C Book. I've seen all of them recommended but I don't know anything myself so I have to go with what other people tell me.

>>58846135
Been trying to learn how to use spacemacs, I have no real programming knowledge. This shit is arcane as fuck to me, atm just trying to figure out how to fucking installs slime.

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dundudndudndudnudn

have you ever debugged a program and you had no idea why it seemingly worked sometimes before you debugged it

>>58849046
No, I've never debugged a program.
Everything I write just works.

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>learned to implement the zeta function within 2 days with contour integration package in Python
I think I'm in love

i think i've completely misunderstood how cpus work this entire time

i thought 2 threads = using 2 cores

but now i've learned that actually, i can have however many threads i want? how the fuck am i supposed to know how many threads i want?

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im a big baby and use glew

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>>58846135
Am I still a script-kiddie if I use a scripting language to create GUI Applications?


On a related note: I've been learning powershell. After getting used to linux systems and bash (and javascript), I actually feel quite at home with powershell. It's like a fusion of javascript and bash in all the best ways. It's a full scripting language. It's object-oriented. It has pipes (and you can even send objects through the pipeline). To anyone who hasn't tried powershell, I highly recommend that you try it.


(sorry about all the censoring)

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>>58849284

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>>58849289

I got a cute little password index going. It can make new passwords, add in previously existing ones, and search

>>58849068

Each core can only run one thread at a time (or two in the case of hyperthreading). Using more threads than you have cores is not particularly advantageous unless you have many unrelated tasks that need to occur without waiting for one to finish.

>>58849284

A script kiddie is someone who uses other people's tools to break into servers, ddos, or cause other forms of havoc. They typically have no idea how any of these tools work. Merely using a scripting language doesn't necessarily make you a script kiddie.

That said, Powershell is not the best of choices for making GUI applications. Other .NET languages like C# or F# would be more suited for the task. Powershell is great for system administration though (as is typical of shell languages), and also makes a great tool for testing .NET libraries and applications (since you can debug a .dll REPL-style with it). As a full-featured language... I'd say it's pretty bland.

Also, is there any reason why you're running all of this shit as root?

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>>58849431
>F#
>suited for anything

>>58848720
anybody

>>58849444

Any application that needs to leverage the .NET framework would be ideally suited by F#, or maybe C# if it is heavily object-oriented in nature.

>>58846135
I hate java ee and I don't understand how to even use it.

>>58849431
>running as root
Defaults, believe it or not. On these computers at the place I work, If you go to
start>accessories>windows powershell>powershell it automatically opens as administrator. If you right click one of the ps1 scripts and hit "run with powershell" it automatically runs as administrator.

Not sure why, but it is the default setting.

That's the only reason.


>C#
Too bad I've always struggled with class-structure and strongly-typed languages.
Whenever I try to learn one of the "big boy" languages, I always seem to struggle. Too much time writing classes. Too much "protected/private/public" bullshit. Too much strong typing of custom datatypes. (by custom I mean anything other than int/float/bool/string )
There's just too much bullshit.
I like to just jump on in. To just throw everything in generic objects/hashes/associative-arrays. To rely on scoping for variable access control.

I like javascript and powershell. But C/C++/C# are too much of a reach for me. At least for now.
I might go back and try again one day.

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Anyone here who worked both with Rust and Go?
I keep hearing about Golang being more productive than Rust. Does Rust make you write more LOC as opposed to golang?

sometimes, when I run a program written in c# through visual studio, when I close the program its process is still running in the task manager.

I've heard that threaded applications may cause this, but I've tested with simple hello world programs and it still happens sometimes.

what may be causing this? windows fucking up? visual studio 2017? god?

>>58849542
I haven't worked with nolang or bust, but I can tell you that bust is worse at being the worst language than nolang.

>>58849556
(No) thanks for your cancerous input, come back 4 years later, when you finally become 18.

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>>58849556

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>>58849582
Sorry you can't stand the truth

>>58849590
Truth is, this is an 18+ site

>>58848168
most people on 4chan only ever visit 4chan and don't go on other sites because the more time you spend here, the harder it becomes to tolerate the people who visit those other sites.

Also, since everyone is anonymous, the only way to judge people is by the merit of their posts, and it's really obvious when an outsider comes here and makes a post.
Some spergs will feel threatened and tell you to fuck off back to where you came because you haven't assimilated yet.

>>58848168
The claims of >>58849732 regarding 4chan's culture are true, but mostly specific to a subset of users here, which in some boards are the vast majority and in others more toned down. A decent amount people in /g/ browse reddit and (this one's more specific to /dpt/) hacker news, but most don't talk about it because it usually starts arguments and derails threads.

>>58849879
>A decent amount people in /g/ browse reddit
nop. fuck off redditcuck

Is C#/.NET a future-proof specialization?

Windows for Desktops is not going anywhere, but Windows for mobile devices is a fucking stillbirth.

>>58848313
It's ded so far

>>58850002
.net is moving to more and more platforms, it's a safe bet.

>>58849542

Go is easier to become productive in early on. It has less ownership / type bullshit to pickup than rust.
Go has better non x86 platform support.
Go is heavily skewed towards a use case of networking tools (Severs, etc)

Rust will force you to handle memory / variables more safely. It's got a very robust and strict checking system at compile time (This is annoying at first).
Rust is developed as a general systems language with use cases similar to c / c++.

The two languages kinda aren't even competitors really. Go is competing with things like Ruby, Python, and Node.js with it's goals. Rust is competing with C / C++ for a high performance at the cost of extra semantics / readability.

>>58850017
Microsoft needs to be gutted by something. People have willingly gave that corrupt abomination too much power. The company willingly sneaks in security holes and information gathering for alphabet agencies.

>>58846481
Won't compile

>>58847540
You can't escape undecidability with a language that doesn't contradict itself, it has nothing to do with computers. Learn about Godel's

>>58849520

>Not sure why, but it is the default setting.
Someone down in IT needs to get a foot shoved up their ass.

>Too bad I've always struggled with class-structure and strongly-typed languages.
If you struggle with OO principles, use F#. As for the use of strongly-typed languages... you're using one right now! Powershell runs on the .NET runtime. All of its types are exactly the same as C# types, and you can even make functions with static type checking, something you're not going to get out of any other shell language because no one gives enough of a shit to do it.

>I like to just jump on in. To just throw everything in generic objects/hashes/associative-arrays. To rely on scoping for variable access control.
Try F#. Rather than writing classes, you'll be writing functions. No, they don't have to be pure, although it's not difficult to make them be pure.

>But C/C++/C# are too much of a reach for me. At least for now.
C shouldn't be too hard. You just have functions and structs.

>>58850337
>Shilling for F#
Just when I thought you couldn't become more of a microcock.

Rate my fizzbuzz

using System;

namespace fissbuzz
{
class Program
{
static void Main(string[] args)
{
for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
{
Console.Write(i);
if (i % 15 == 0) Console.WriteLine(" FizzBuzz");
else
if (i % 3 == 0) Console.WriteLine(" Fizz");
else
if (i % 5 == 0) Console.WriteLine(" Buzz");
else
Console.WriteLine("");
}
Console.Read();
}
}
}

>>58850925
>Microsoft Java
>No indentation
>No code tags
0/10

>>58850935
Nah, i think its a comfy language

>>58850267
Oh yes, I know about him.
>inconsistency
You seem to think for some reason that I'm bothered by this, which I'm not.

>>58850945
C# is a comfy language, but your firzzbuzz doesn't use LINQ so why are you using C# for it?

>>58850925
>no code tags
not reading that lel

>>58851077
Because it was so simple that i did not feel a need for it

>>58851081
gaaaaaaay

>>58847213
>Putting brackets around an array causes it to decay to a pointer under ISO C
false

>>58851110
yeah, don't try to disprove it or anything

>>58850839
the only performant functional language with a proper IDE and debugger

>>58851129
there's no need, it was a retarded claim in the first place

>>58851138
>needing an IDE
>being a microkek
>>>/r/ibbit

>>58851138
>performant
>functional
anon...

>>58851146
People have work to do and nontrivial work needs a proper debugger and a IDE.
>>58851163
F# isn't hasklel

>>58851145
i see, so whatever you state somehow becomes true? how do you bend reality in such a way?

>>58851181
You're the one that made an affirmation.

>>58851175
Why do people say 'Hasklel' rather than 'Haskek'?

>>58851187
what makes you think >>58851129 wasn't my first post? we aren't on your home website (plebbit)

>>58851190
because /pol/, I mean reddit, took a turkish meme about kek (top lel -> top kek) and ruined it

>>58851190
Because the edit distance is smaller.

>>58851200
but your not me tho

>>58851200
In any case, a claim was made that brackets cause a decay to a pointer, and if this is true, the person claiming this should prove it.

It doesn't need to be proven false.

>>58851205
One delete and one sub to 'Haskek', one delete and one insert to 'Hasklel'.

>>58851203
I thought it came from some MMO that used a trivial substitution cipher for enemy teamspeak.

>>58847213
>>58851129
The brackets are only there so compilers can parse the sizeof operand correctly when it's a type name.
In C, an array almost always decays to a pointer, but sizeof is one of the few examples where it doesn't.

>>58851223
>I thought it came from some MMO
you're correct

>>58851213
that guy doesn't seem to wanna do that. so your post is literally worthless, you tried to share some information but failed miserably by not providing any proofs
>>58851228
why do you think this somehow counts as "proof"? I can make any positive claim right now and it will be true according to your "logic"

>>58846135
"The most powerful programming language is Lisp. If you don't know Lisp (or its variant, Scheme), you don't know what it means for a programming language to be powerful and elegant. Once you learn Lisp, you will see what is lacking in most other languages." -Richard Stallman

>>58851246
You're clearly not experience with C. This is one of those things that C programmers would know.
You need to take the effort and actually run an example yourself and see how much of an idiot you are.

>>58851257
>not experience
not experienced*

>>58851246
>I can make any positive claim right now
like this? >>58847213

I use the same pattern all the time in scala, is there any better way?

val cond = 1 == 2
if (cond)
    doSomething()
cond

>>58851257
what does my experience or inexperience have to do with anything? let's assume i programmed in C literally from its inception. how would this change the truth value of any claims made so far?
>>58851263
yes. and like this:
the second post you linked to is a lie.
both statements are true according to you.

>>58851257
>>58851289
Get a room, guys.

>>58851289
>according to you
but I didn't make any claims

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>>58851289
Here you go then, you fucking idiot.

>>58851300
why do mad, scotty?

>>58851307
Hostility on 4chan doesn't mean that someone is mad. It's the default tone here.
Lurk more, fag.

>>58851311
>It's the default tone here
That's the most favorite thing I like about 4chan.

>>58851295
sorry, i'm not a homosexual.
>>58851299
i'll repeat myself, we aren't on your home website aka plebbit so "you" here doesn't mean much. substitute "you" for "person making the claim" because that's what any non-retard would do. why do you think statements which obviously don't apply to you are somehow targeted at you?
>>58851300
i see, so if I type something into your terminal right now it will become true? how does this method deal inconsistency? if i claim that 2 = 3 in that terminal and then claim the opposite, what happens?
is it just this particular terminal emulator program or is there something more going on? like your entire system perhaps has this power. does text you don't even enter yourself become true as well? what if someone sends you a message claiming that you are dead. what happens in that case?

>>58851223
the meme being the same as the wow term is merely a coincidence

New thread:

>>58851338
>>58851338
>>58851338

>>58851330
>deal with inconsistency

>>58851330
you are retarded m8

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>>58851330
>we aren't on your home website
Quit projecting, hetero.

>>58851330
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1570.pdf
>§6.3.2.1
>3
>Except when it is the operand of thesizeof operator, the _Alignof operator, or the unary & operator, or is a string literal used to initialize an array, an expression that has type ‘‘array of type’’ is converted to an expression with type ‘‘pointer to type’’ that points to the initial element of the array object and is not an lvalue.

>>58851333
>merely a coincidence
nope, that's how I started the meme

>>58851358
i claim the opposite. which becomes true, right?
>>58851361
>that new filename
yeah, literal plebbitor confirmed. fuck off back to your leftist shithole.
>>58851368
how does a piece of paper qualify as "proof"? if i link you to a website where I type something in a semi official manner does it somehow make it true? i'm really interested in your delusional thinking.

>>58851406
Ok, you're just pretending to be retarded to try and save face.
I literally posted the final draft of the C standard document, from its official source.
You can go buy the "proper" version from ISO if you want to, and it'll be there.

>>58851406
>muh mental illness

>>58851426
>Ok, you're just pretending to be retarded to try and save face.
i don't think that's the case here. i didn't do anything stupid like claiming some retarded shit without being able to back it up.
>You can go buy the "proper" version from ISO if you want to, and it'll be there.
i'm afraid you will have to do that yourself. and don't forget to film it while showing this exact piece of text.
>>58851437
>muh
ribbitor confirmed. back to your "sub" as you call them.

>>58851450
>as you call them
>pretending
come on m8, we all know

@58851450
You don't deserve any more (You)s for that weak bait you're putting out now.
Kill yourself.

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>>58851406
>fuck off back to your leftist shithole.
It's yours, piece of heterotron. You're always welcome to fuck off here.

>>58851472
i'm not your "m8", "mate"
>>58851475
you do though. your retardation was pretty fun while it lasted. it's good you acknowledge that you were wrong though.
>>58851479
>posting left wing cuckery
yeah, as i previously said. fuck off to your "sub"

>>58851330
>sorry, i'm not a homosexual.
You should probably tell him that. The sexual tension is palpable.

>>58851508
>another display of mental illness
laddie...

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>>58851508
>uses the cuck word
>calls others redditors
You first.

>>58851535
i'm sorry for giving him false hope.
>>58851538
what do you mean by this?
>>58851542
yes, that leftist fag you posted is literally the definition of "cuck".
don't know why you felt the need to defile this board with your reddit presence, but could you leave now? it's getting really awkward

>>58851564
>definition of "cuck"
9gag army!

>>58851578
>9gag
huh? is this another one of your favorite subreddits?

>>58851604
>le ebin "huh?" pretending

>>58851615
i want to fuck the shit out of this retard

>>58851671
I did say that the sexual tension was palpable.

>>58851285
anaphoric if, but scala probably doesn't have the macro support you need to implement it

Does this loop works like I think it does? I want to copy the values of the array from argv and place it into another array called gradeStorage.

 for (int j = 0; j < argc; j++) //loop continues until reach end of number of arguments (-1 so less than because one of the arguments is the file name)
    {

        gradeStorage[j] = *argv[j];    //copy elements of command line to another array gradeStorage

    }