Why can't 99% of computer science graduates actually program?

Someone once showed me this article but it's still a mystery to me why all these computer science grads are so dumb:
https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

>>58555131
CS is not a programming degree.
Hire off of coding bootcamps if you want nothing more.

I agree, though. Getting a CS degree should imply that you can program

>>58555131
People BS their way for longer than should be allowed. They might be so good at BSing they have convinced themselves they are good at it.

Alternately they might not really be as bad as you think. You may have 10+ years of good experience clouding your memory of how bad you really were back then.

Another equally valid option is that the really good ones actually get taken out of the job pool very quickly.

>>58555162
We don't want code monkeys, but we expect that people who went to school for computer science can do what that entails, and understand the theory behind it.

>>58555163
So most comp science guys just get by with rout memorization?

>>58555224
I don't think it's the first option. These guys can't even do basic tasks. The job we're hiring also entails some basic networking knowledge, and these guys claim they know tons about networking but can't even say one basic difference between TCP and UDP, which any A+ certified goof can. They also can't do literally ANY simple programming tasks in the interviews, like the aforementioned fizzbuzz test that 90% of these guys fail

I think it might be that we're only seeing the guys who can't find a job. Competent people don't stay on the market long..

>>58555254
Don't they have to actually do some sort of project before they graduate though? Like code a program from scratch or something? I thought getting a degree involved furthering human knowledge at the end. Or am I thinking of something else?

competent devs should really be paid a lot more. like, 200K+

>>58555346
That sounds like something you'd ask someone to do in their first week of class...

No wonder why comp science grads are so stupid...

>>58555361
competent devs should be paid exactly as much as the labor market decides they are worth

commie

>>58555346
Heh, reminds me of this chick that compared mongodb's use of Lucene indexes to Oracle 12c's

She didn't even know what full text indexes were and why her test was full retard.

To be fair, there were plenty of really shitty capstone projects that were by men.

>>58555367
it's because of commie regulations that are pushing wages down, commie.

>>58555131
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/programmers-should-not-call-themselves-engineers/414271/

>>58555369
I say compare because she was benchmarking them by throwing them full text based queries. Lmao

>>58555275
Yeah that's your problem

Comp Sci student here.
Can confirm 75% of CS students are totally useless and fail to code the simplest of things. Profs are more worried about making CS attractive than teaching well

>>58555402
Given some of the JUST shit I've seen this is true.

One professor at my school got in trouble for basically failing 80% of the class so they don't fix the fact that basically 80% of the student body can't do it.

The super incompetent ones end up switching to some meme IT/Business hybrid shit degree.

ex Comp Sci student here.
Most CS students are garbage because Profs are terrible themselves. I learned more about programming and algorithms self-studying once I dropped out than I ever did at uni.

>>58555412
Sounds about right.
Hoping Machine Organization drops the turds this semester so I can feel like my peers actually give half a fuck about the field enough to hang on.
Also many Unis are teaching high level and neglect the basics that syntax anal languages (C) really nail into your head

>>58555445
To be honest, just talk to the professors.

Even if the class is shit, usually they will be there for further knowledge. He'll try an independent study and evade the whole shitty classes altogether.

>>58555412
Must be a ton of crap schools or the recent degradation due to massive political correctness.

I remember around 15 years ago at community college in a class that started with html and moved in to java(since at the time java was trying to do website app plugin stuff) and when the java section hit I was the last person in the class.

>>58555445
Machine organization.... Is that. O lmao the MIPS one. Jesus. The turds will probably shit through that class. It's super easy unless you start getting into the more obnoxious hardware designs and features.

>>58555462
Probably. I didn't have the luxury of going to a decent school because of money problems.

>>58555377
>Traditional engineers are regulated, certified, and subject to apprenticeship and continuing education.
I don't know about regulated, but there are tons of certifications software engineers can get. An apprenticeship is replaced by a shitty unpaid internship and continuing education is almost a must if you plan to remain employable as technology standards change.

3/10 the author is a retard.

>>58555426
Dropping seems a bit extreme. But I can vouch for what this guy says. CS students suck at anything beyond passing classes.

I'm a senior and trying to get any student active is like pulling fucking teeth. The smart ones don't participate in extra work because no one rivals them and the dumb ones wont put in the time.

It really is more of an issue with the curriculum then anything in my opinion. It emphasizes a culture of puff. I know professors who would rather pass a student who did nothing all semester than force them to take the class again. However, the material covered requires so little effort that anyone who can write two papers a semester can pass theory classes.

The gatekeepers at my university are Theory of Computation and Compiler. The obvious reason for compiler is because 50% of your grade is dependent on creating a compiler. However, you wouldn't believe the amount of females I've seem get male students to basically write all programs for them throughout the whole undergraduate period.

My point is: 99% of graduates suck. Hire the ones with active github and research activity.

>>58555131

Because Computer Science isn't 'programming' and nor is a Computer Science degree a preparation for a programming job.

>>58555131
>>58555131
im an aerospace engineer and i program since the CS majors at my school are shit at programming.

>>58555131
Becoming proficient at programming requires you to actually spend some of your free time applying what you learned, by actually programming. Most people do not do this because they have no real interest in the field.

>>58555474
They can't even write a compiler of they were given the knowledge of shit like flex+bison or some other PEG or EBNF tool?

What the fuck. At my school they just made us write a lexer for our compiler class.

>>58555131
>>58555143
Based on what I have seen in universities, the situation is as follows:

1- Universities no longer fail students, instead try to push them along.
2- Students are NOT taught how to solve problems in programming courses any more. Instead, they are taught to copy/paste answers.
3- Students who fail programming... take it again and again till they pass. They do not change course to non-IT.

So you have a bunch of CS/IT grads who are taught to copy/paste, and may have failed to learn even that. They are asked to solve unique problems which cannot be solved by copy/pasting, and they fail.

>>58555474
i see a lot of people whining about girls doing that sort of thing, but honestly, when i see people do that it makes me think that they are management material or something similar

if their skillset is getting people to do work for them, then put them in the field they "studied" in, but instead of coding, having them be the manager on a team, since they've obviously been spending years getting people to do work for them already

>>58555131
>This one guy I interviewed with a Stanford diploma couldn't fizzbuzz! LITERALLY 99% ALL GRADS!

Your story is fake, and your sweeping generalizations are silly. I assure you Google/Zuckerberg/ApLEL and all the other shitty major corps snap up Stanford grads so either you are lying or the guy who applied is lying about his degree.

You can bluff your way through first year undergrad but you aren't bluffing your way through final year projects.

>>58555517
i'm not lying, this story happened

he spent 25 minutes on that basic task

you can choose to disbelieve it, but there are plenty of people that graduate from "good" schools that are utterly incompetent

I get both excited and horrified reading threads like these. Excited that getting a job should be easy for me, and horrified that it probably won't be because my resume will go straight to the trash together with all other new graduates :^(

>>58555517

Yes you can. If someone else on the team does all the work.

>>58555540
do some sort of internship if you want to avoid that problem

>>58555540
Writing an eye-catching and memorable resume is a skill, too. Practice that, and you will get a job if your programming skills are good.

>>58555536
define 'basic task'

>>58555131

This

Some people just want to go for their CCNAs and have their toilet paper degree to show for it.

>>58555550
fizzbuzz...

>>58555555

And I meant to quote him

Fuck repeating integers

>>58555162

>>58555512
I don't want to come off as bitter about it. I've offered and helped several people in my program including females. I'm not sure the point I was making there. I'm a bit buzzed.

>>58555556
I think fizzbuzz is "hard" for some programmers because (#1) it doesn't fit into any of the patterns that were given to them in school assignments, and (#2) it isn't possible to directly and simply represent the necessary tests, without duplication, in just about any commonly-used modern programming language.

>>58555548
one trick is, a lot of HR people just control f for certain buzzwords they've been told to look for, and if the resume has it, it gets sent to the "look at" pile, most of the time they don't actually look at the resume, they have some sort of hr program that does it

take a bunch of buzzwords that the position is looking for, and just splatter them in your resume in the same color as the paper so that the software will put it up and it'll get put in the "look at" pile

>>58555131
because coding is a high autism job that probably only 5% of the population can do properly

>>58555570
Lol

Will PostScript/PDF even preserve textual data that matches the background?

Because if it does, this is a pretty humorous idea.

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Just hire pajeets then

I like to think I can program but sometimes wonder if I was a retard all along. What do you need to know to be considered someone who knows how to program?

>>58555595
That's what they're doing innit?

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>>58555604
If you're going to hire retards who can't program at least get them for cheap and get diversity points

>>58555578

5% ? lol

thats WAY too generous

>>58555462
>when the java section hit I was the last person in the class.

That sounds comfy. Full attention of the professor. All questions answered promptly and no retarded questions being asked.

>>58555578
The standard job interview process further weeds out all the autists who can program as most of them have garbage social skills. People who can program worth a damn and who have good social skills are extraordinary rare.

>>58555468
Machine Organization is as low level as the curriculum goes unless you take tech electives or a 4** class. Our uni makes this course especially difficult.
But ive seen other unis teach is woth basic concept so I guess it depends whereabouts

>>58555568
You can't blame the school for failing fizzbuzz. It should be solved easily right after babby's first "hello world!". They can't pass it because they've never programmed before in their life.

>>58555131
isn't FizzBuzz a meme ?
I mean, it shouldn't be that hard right ?

public class FizzBuzz{
public static void main(String[]  args){
for(int i = 1; i <=100; i++){
if(i % 3 == 0 && i%5 ==0){System.out.println("FizzBuzz");
}else if(i %3 == 0){
System.out.println("Fizz");
}else if(i %5 == 0){
System.out.println("Buzz");
}else{
System.out.println(i);
}
}
}

Hit that in under two minutes.
SUre it is not a good version, but come on

>>58555686
this.
I'm a mega dumbass that is trying to get into this, but sometimes forgets simple concepts, and even i can deduct it's a simple conbination of for and if.

>>58555699
>java

settle down, pajeet

>>58555568
I have seen "programmers" fail at "count down from 700 to 200, in decrements of 13".

They cannot program.

>>58555699
it is a meme. Even though your solution is a little ugly, it works fine. If a person who claims to have graduated with a degree in CS can't solve this problem then they are a fucking liar or you should automatically reject people from that uni from then on.

>>58555759

I'm new to programing, and starting with python. I still don't get classes or methods fully, especially the designation self.

But does this do what you're asking?

start_value = 700
while start_value >= 200:
    print(start_value)
    start_value -= 13

>>58555784
Oh, they can solve the problem, but it takes them upwards of 15 minutes

I'm going through a CS program right now after spending about 2 years working with production code

They are not taught real world skills
They are not taught real world concepts
They are hammered on algorithms algorithms algorithms
You want somebody who can interface your application with a small MongoDB?
Too bad! He spent 4 years rewriting and implementing his own inefficient version of double linked lists!

>>58555596
If fizzbuzz is something you can actually do you can program.

Maybe being able to take a problem and break it up in to smaller sub problems till each of those sub problems is no problem.

>>58555471
The problem is software engineering doesn't require certification or apprenticeship.

And yes, it's fucking engineering, when you hire code monkeys to do an engineering job, you end up with shit like antivirus software on voting machines.

>>58555759
for (i = 700; i >= 200; i-=13)
Am I missing something? There has to be a catch to it, right?
Please tell me they had to at least print 200 if the next iteration put them under 200.

>>58555816
Assuming you did not google and copy/paste: Congratulations, you are better at problem solving than ~90% of programming-job applicants.

>>58555818
I've noticed pretty frequently that American universities teach things that are totally divorced from what would actually be useful in the real world

It's like they get offended when someone has the AUDACITY to suggest preparing their students for the real world..

>>58555832

no, lol.

I was going to write in pseudo-code, but it was basically that fucking answer without the proper indentation, so I opened atom and did that.

although, I did spaghetti it up and start with an if statement, instead of while.

>>58555832
I hope this is true. It would be nice to solve easy filter problems and get a job.

>>58555827
You are missing nothing. There is no catch. Copy/pasta:

---

It is not hard.

It is like this: You are hiring a new pianist for your orchestra. An interviewee walks in, so you take them to a room with a piano, a drum, and a guitar.

"Point out the piano".

If the interviewee cannot point out the piano, what is the point of continuing the interview? So it goes with FizzBuzz, or "Count down from 700 to 200 in decrements of 13."

---

There are people out there who call themselves programmers, but cannot do FizzBuzz. Dozens of them? No! Millions of them! That is why FizzBuzz is so easy!

Because you want to end the interview as soon as you hear: "Well, I have played lots of pianos in uni, but I gotta confess, my piano-identification skills are a bit rusty. Can you give me about 15 minutes to check out these three items so I can make sure I figure out which is the piano? And I can I google? Also, I am sure I can learn how to expertly and professionally identify which is the piano if I can read pianooverflow for 3 weeks."

>>58555832

I refuse to believe this

>>58555852
It is true. The knife that cuts the people who can from those that can't doesn't have to be very sharp.

There have been other ones listed very simply that just show variables and the state of them after certain points.

It is more about being able to actually care about the minutia of the problem.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/separating-programming-sheep-from-non-programming-goats/

> 8% of students didn't give a damn and left the answers blank.

>>58555131
>Why can't 99% of computer science graduates actually program?
Because they never really practice programming. And half follow the Microsoft philosophy of simply copying existing code and retrofitting it to do the job.

>>58555852
FizzBuzz is meant to filter out non-programmers. It is not meant to guarantee a job.

>>58555882
The truth isn't so black and white. The idea that most programmers who apply for interviews can't even program such basic things (fizzbuzz, etc) is a meme. There are a lot of factors to consider.

>>58555818
Implementing algorithms is supposed to teach problem solving skills. If you have basic knowledge, can program and know how to solve problems you can learn anything. If you are only taught specific implementations you can only do those. They don't teach 'real world' things because the field changes so fast, it'd be outdated by the time you're out.
Also real world things are for projects not courses

>>58555319
Degrees used to mean something before universities shifted focus onto careers instead of broadening a student's knowledge and thinking skills.

>>58555376
If you want 200K, negotiate your contract. If you can't persuade or bargain a deal and your communications skills are really bad, you're SOL.

>>58555596
>>58555596
a rope

>>58555818
>MongoDB
>Not taught real world concepts
You can say that again, there are very few scenarios that ever call for using a NoSQL database. Many people use shit like MongoDB, use it as a crutch because they do not know how to properly implement or design a database.

>>58555759

python guy again
I seek the validation of others

I gave a shot at fizz buzz

num = 1
while num <= 100:
    if num % 3 == 0 and num % 5 == 0:
        print('FizzBuzz')
        num += 1
    elif num % 3 == 0:
        print('Fizz')
        num += 1
    elif num % 5 == 0:
        print('Buzz')
        num += 1
    else:
        print(num)
        num += 1

>>58555907
It's supposed to, yes, but they end up just being slowly explained in a lecture while everybody copies down step by step what it is and then spitting it back out.
Most of the people in my classes couldn't put together a basic file parser last semester.

>>58555924
I've had three encounters with Mongo and I have hated every single one of them.
I honestly can't think of an instance where it would be superior to even sqlite

>>58555938
Use a for loop dumbass. This is disgusting

>>58555921
Program how to figuratively "rope" your computer so that it is hung by the figurative neck until dead.
Babby mode: post a Windows method.

>>58555938
having an iterator that does the same thing in each if is pretty terrible but the rest is right

>>58555938
This >>58555975
also if a number is divisible by 3 and 5 then it's divisible by 15.

>>58555948
I think that algorithmic courses teach the students with an innate gift for programming a shitload, and teach those who don't almost nothing. So you get 10% (or less) really good guys and 90% shitters, while if you teach implementations you get like 50% competent students and 50% shitters

>>58555938
i will hire you but we need to get you acquainted with for loops senpai.

>>58555975
He is using a loop.

>>58555131
What can I do to make sure this doesn't happen when I leave uni?

I enjoy the work and the course but I dont know how to further myself in my own time. Can I get some advice please?

>>58556024
He says for loop you dingus, that guy is using a while loop

>>58556020
>while num <= 100:
He is fine.

>>58556024
I'm guessing you're part of the 99%.

>>58556027
Practice actual coding. Take part in actual projects. If you're into vidya, open source emulators are fun.

>>58555938
When you do the exact same thing more than once the general idea is to try and figure out how not to. There are some times that the cost of reducing repetition is too expensive but not often.

>>58556034
who cares bro he came up with his own implementation and it worked. these are the kind of people you want working for you.

>>58556034
Right. My bad.

I can't even get an interview anywhere, and I've been practicing data structures & algs whiteboard questions for months REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>58556027
If you do anything on your own outside of classes or above and beyond what is required you should be fine.

>>58556047
Yeah but reading posts is apparently also a skill to develop

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>>58555131

Because computer science is just that, the science of computing. Some schools are starting to create degree paths for "Software Engineer/Developer." That's what we need more of.

The problem in the US is that so few people enjoy math to begin with that the few people that are half decent are the ones that end up in engineering programs across the board. Expectations from them are low because they are the few that barely qualify. Therefore, you end up with people with the bare minimum knowledge to skate by in the software development world. They expect to learn on the job, and the employers expect them to be already prepared. There's miscommunication between the market and the universities, but when have universities ever been good with reality in the private sector?

I fall into your camp, though, OP. I recognized that I wasn't going to become some C++ dev. I hated sitting around programming for someone all day. I actually tried it at a summer job while in school and wanted to blow my brains out. I chose my major as a B.Sc. Management Information Systems. I got into the IT world and had more fun. Now that I turned 30, I'm realizing there is a lot of potential in the software space. I've been teaching myself over the past few years to become a full stack web dev instead of a binary software dev anymore. My IT knowledge of transactional DBs, caching, Linux, IP networking, among other things, has really helped me out big time.

Anyway, back to your point, OP... People are being total faggots about all the H-1B Visas and all, but we literally just don't have the qualified talent locally in the US for many tech positions. By cutting back on H-1B's, we'd be hurting the tech industry significantly, and only the richest companies could lobby to get the most of them. The universities need to be shaken up about teaching practical software development, and employers are just going to have to accept that some learning is part of the job.

>>58556044

the reason I'm weary of for loops, is any time I've used them I tend to get stuck in an infinite loop, or it just goes over it once, and ignores the shit I want it to do.

the while made sense, because it was how I literally envisioned it being processed by the computer.

recursiveness goes above my head.

>>58556057
>resume skills:
>Mastery of interview problems
>Autistic optimization of fizzbuzz
>Expert understanding of data structures such as linked lists and stacks

Keep trying anon, they can't overlook quality programmers such as yourself forever

>>58556086
You should give up programming now.

>>58556057
I'm in a similar boat.

I'm starting to realize these threads are nothing but memes. I even went through both Programming Interviews Exposed and Cracking the Coding Interview, and consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to programming, and I still can't get a job. Don't know if it has anything to with how ""autistic"" I am. or maybe it's just that people here like to spread bullshit for whatever reason.

>>58556101

back to frenching fries for me!

>>58556107
>there are people right in this very thread that are so autistic that companies would rather hire people that have never seen code in their life

>>58556086
I don't know python but in a while you usually put the iterator at the end of the while. You would actually have an infinite loop if you missed the iterator in one of the ifs

while i < 100 {
 blah
 blah
 i += 1
}

>>58556101
Ignore the trolls too. I remember when I couldn't do functions right.

>>58555555
I dont even know what you call that GET
>priase kek

>>58556107
I'm still going through Cracking the Coding Interview, and I don't even think I'm that good at these questions. How did you go through the book, anon? Did you actually sit down and write your own solutions or did you just read through the solutions in the back?

>>58556107
Being able to program is one thing but being a fit for the team is another.

You would not throw a rock in to a ball pit.

Honestly, programming very much interests me but I am way too dumb to be competent in it. I look at code like >>58555699 and it just looks like hieroglyphics to me. It would be cool to understand and maybe do stuff like that on my own, but I wouldn't be good enough to get paid and compete with others to do it.

feels bad man

File: 1431952895333[1].jpg (17KB, 385x387px) Image search: [Google]

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>>58556091
At this point I've been considering going back to school.

>>58556154

it looks like hieroglyphs because its java

>>58555131
>tfw when live in straya and write my own 'hacking' tools and still don't get work.

But burger tards get a job for being able to plug in an Ethernet cable.

feels bad man. I'm considering creating a software as a service that charges a monthly fee to certain business's and create my own job desu.

>>58556190
Nice

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I did not learn much programming at school.
I picked up some basics of OOP while programming my thesis but thats it.
CS suscks but it was better choice than other meme degrees.

is code academy a meme? if I go through it all and try to practice stuff where does that put me? do I still need a degree to even be considered?

>>58555512
This is horseshit

Management requires a bit more than "getting people to do work for them"

>>58556154
Stop being a fucking pussy. You know enough about a computer to come to this shithole and whack your dill to sissy porn on /gif/, so I'm guessing you have it in you to form associations and understand a process in your head.

Programming is not hard, but most of the world is retarded. Go enroll at your local community college and laugh all the way to the bank because you aren't a fucking idiot. Bet you won't, pussy.

>>58556208
Meme to the max. It teaches rote syntax and nothing else.

>>58556154
If you've never programmed before then >>58555699 looks like hieroglyphics because his formatting is sloppy and it's java which always looks like shit anyway. What he typed out you can learn in literally less than an hour.

for (int i = 1; i <= 100; ++i)
{
    if (i % 15 == 0)
        cout << "FizzBuzz";
    else if (i % 3 == 0)
        cout << "Fizz";
    else if (i % 5 == 0)
        cout << "Buzz";
    else
        cout << i;
cout << " ";
}

actually having typed that out I remember how weird the << looks to someone who's never done it before so idk. It's not hard though really.

>>58556086
>recursiveness goes above my head

pro tip: get hip with recursion otherwise youll find a lot of code is indecipherable

i guess also learn how to make for loops work (second pro tip: make sure your condition and increment makes absolute sense)

pro pro tip: im not even pro

>>58556208
You need 2 of the following:

You are a literal programming prodigy,

You have x years of actual work,

You have a degree

>>58555512
They're getting the work done for them because they have a vagina and all the shitters in CS that have to grind out even the most basic concepts would do anything for female attention.

There are talented women in the field. You're not finding them at a local college.

>>58556213
nepotism helps, but so does being a micro-managing bitch

>>58555555
This GIT is something else, so close but still nice

My university spent the first two years of my degree making me take random courses that have nothing to do with computing, now that I am a senior I am taking the real courses, but they never go past the most basic elements of the topic, so I have resorted to (1) reading certification books in the hope that they will teach me the topic while also preparing me for actually getting the certifications once I finish school and (2) writing programs and creating websites that I actually want/have a use for instead of just making the practice problems from the books.

I've been doing this for a couple of months now and I feel a million times more knowledgeable than before.

>>58555938

// cpp
#include <iostream>
int main() {
    for (int i = 1; i <=100; i++) {
        if (i % 3 != 0 && i % 5 != 00) std::cout << i;
        if (i % 3 == 0) std::cout << "fizz";
        if (i % 5 == 0) std::cout << "buzz";
        std::cout << "\n";
    }
}

>>58556281
What certifications are you studying for programming? The only ones I've seen that aren't all related to information security or being a network engineer are ones promoted by microsoft to lockin more developers on windows platforms to churn out shit-tier apps for them.

>>58556250
>managers are evil bro, fight the power!
Grow up

>>58556281
it took you 2 years to read on your own and do your own projects?

#include <iostream>
using namespace std;

void fizzbuzz(int i) {
    if (i > 100) return;
    if (i % 3 == 0)
        cout << "Fizz";
    if (i % 5 == 0)
        cout << "Buzz";
    if (i % 3 != 0 && i % 5 != 0)
        cout << i;
    cout << endl;
    fizzbuzz(i + 1);
}

int main() {
    fizzbuzz(1);
    return 0;
}

r8

>>58556149
Well in Programming Interviews Exposed they tell you off the bat that interviews are conducted in a certain way where the interviewees are only really interested in your thought process, and how you come to a certain answer; so they drop hints all the time whenever they think you're stuck, which is how the book is laid out for you: to work through the problems until you're stuck. Having said that, I got through most of them without much of hassle to be perfectly honest (as well as those in CtCI), but there were a few tricky ones (More so in PIE). Not to mention that the questions in real interviews are obviously much different (though technically more of the same) which adds a different level of difficulty to it.

But I didn't just solve these myself while reading the book(s), I revised the answers and questions numerous times so that they would become second nature. Even if I convinced myself I really understood them, I would do them over again until solving them became ingrained in the way they were presented.

I don't know how much experience you already have with coding but if you have trouble with CtCI you might find the problems in PIE somewhat more difficult. I would suggest to keep working at them even if it takes you a while to come to a solution.

Don't even know what the point of this post this post is, I guess i'm just on a rant.

>>58555131
I've been a computer science graduate for 8 months, and I can program, but I can't get a job.

It's giving me panic attacks now.

>>58555759
is the trick to overflow your numeric until this is actually possible?

for(int i = 1; i <= 100; ++i) {
  printf((!(i%3) && !(i%5))?"FizzBuzz\n":!(i%3)?"Fizz\n":!(i%5)?"Buzz\n":"%d\n", i);
}

>>58556291
I'm studying the certifications for network security. I plan to try to get a job in network security eventually. The site development and desktop programs I work on are specifically to improve my programming, but the certification books do include useful information about programming here and there.

>>58556306
Yes, I had previously convinced myself that if I just continue with my degree that I will be fine and everything will take care of itself. Then I started to realize how screwed other students and I were, so I started looking elsewhere for real knowledge.

>>58556364

Doesn't matter how small you can make the C++ code, how does it perform when compiled?

If the industry is so desperate for devs and 99% of graduates can't code then why do I feel like my career options are shit and I should go into something else?

* Self taught. No degree. Parents couldn't afford college, I didn't want the debt, and I had no issue teaching myself C++.
* FT dev work until the housing crash.
* Contract dev work since then. I've supported myself, but I'm not happy with my income at all. (Especially after paying SE tax and med insurance.)
* Two local businesses literally run off the software I designed and wrote for them from scratch on my own. (Neither has their own devs.) At one this is a half dozen desktop apps for different workers; two web apps; all tied together by a Postgres db. Think automation of processes behind the scenes with a glossy web front end for their clients. At another: 4 desktop apps; one web site/app; MySQL.
* I modernized a small but profitable commercial application for a small business, taking it from Windows only to Windows+Mac.
* I've got other stuff to my name over the past 9 years.

If I could show you some of this work, you would have no question that I can code. Not just code, but architect entire, multi-component systems. I was "full stack" before that became a meme.

But I can apply for positions all day long and get rejection emails. I'm ready to fucking walk from the industry.

>>58556336
bloat/10

Try it for i > 5000 and let me know if it throws a stack overflow exception lol

>>58555818
>hammered on algorithms algorithms algorithms
sounds like computer science. if you want to learn programming do some kind of programming course/technical degree

people don't randomly sign up for engineering degrees and complain they're not learning how to be builders or other tradesmen so why the fuck does this happen all the time with CS

>>58555818
Computer Science is the study of algorithms

>>58556430
>he's thinking of edge cases for fizzbuzz

>>58556428

Noone has mentioned it yet but people skills are something you get for "free" at college. 9 years of marketable experience should get you in most doors.

#include <stdio.h>

void fizzbuzz(int n);

int main(void) {
    fizzbuzz(1);
}

void fizzbuzz(int n) {
    if (n > 100) return;
    if (n%3 == 0) printf("Fizz");
    if (n%5 == 0) printf("Buzz");
    if (!(n%3 == 0) && !(n%5 == 0)) printf("%d", n);
    printf("\n");
    fizzbuzz(++n);
}

can i haz job

>>58556428
You are getting auto-filtered by HR or most likely a fucking robot that sees you don't have a BS in CS.

You probably need to network and get in touch with human beings who would be hiring you. At this point a stupid piece of paper is literally used to filter.

>>58556457
>using recursion for fizzbuzz unless you are asked to by the interviewer just to demonstrate you know what recursion means

Next applicant!

>>58556464
People skills can't be playing a part when it comes to applying online.

And if I was lacking in people skills I would never have gotten the long term contract work that I did get, or the FT position before the housing kaboom.

>>58556430
>he does't know about tail recursion

>>58556457
>try to show off with recursion
>do so in a way that is poorly thought out that it's almost painful to read
"W-wow nice recursion anon! We'll let you know if you got the job!"
*bins application*

>>58556363
there isn't a trick other than clarifying the terms of the problem, should the program stop counting at 206 or 193.

for (int i = 700; i >= (200-13); i -= 13) std::cout << i << std::endl;

>>58556470
Well...fuck. I guess I can follow up applications with a letter or something.

LOL shouldn't it count for something that I taught myself??? I'll stand by and show off my code in an interview to. It's not spaghetti. Good separation of functionality into classes. Nice, clean interfaces between objects. (Well...except for a few small projects where the budget was tight and I rushed.)

>>58556479
Just in general. If you are never getting to the interview part it is most likely the great filter.

You could probably hit some random community college and blitz through some cs though most do check for the BS

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>>58556428

I feel ya, bruh. I learned from other successful people over time to value your work more. I used to charge way too little to do websites and junk for companies. I moved into web app development and realized I wasn't getting paid enough for the work I did.

I had some connections, did some in-person showcasing and proposal stuff, and then gave them some estimates. Not everyone is interested in paying you real money for your work, because they think that Indian faggots at $5/hr can do the same thing you do. However, I've landed some crazy paying projects for architecting some web apps. I wrote a warehouse management system for a non-profit that paid me a flat $25k for 3mo of work. A medical company is paying me $3k/mo retainer to customize shitty SugarCRM for their needs (I barely have to do much of anything). They are now adding on another $3k/mo retainer to have me develop a new public-facing web app for a new company they're starting to diversify with (hopefully I can milk that for a lot more soon). Another non-profit is now interested in paying me $50-60k for about 4mo of work on a warehouse and asset management system.

Some guy from a huge investment firm in NYC actually replied to a stupid Craigslist post I made when I first decided to value my work higher. They were literally paying me $4k/WEEK to develop this retarded ass sports betting web app for them with a backend API that connects to a mobile app they were having made too. They went nowhere with it, and I got paid royally for about 4.5mo.

Lesson is, value your work more. Walk in like you know your shit. Make sure you explain the process of what you're doing in a professional way. Don't give definite timeframes on quotes besides rough estimates until you guys can work out design docs. MAKE A CONTRACT AND HAVE THEM SIGN THEIR LIFE AWAY. Seriously, hire a lawyer to write up a nice contract for you if you're a legal illiterate (glad I enjoy law and took a few law classes for my degree).

>>58556371
>Yes, I had previously convinced myself that if I just continue with my degree that I will be fine and everything will take care of itself.

tell everyone of your folly so they can learn from your mistake.

>>58556548

why would you help out your direct competition?

>>58556548
it's not in my best interest though, and they would not listen, I am surrounded by the people who all want to make games and are terrible at math, as far as I am concerned, it would be better for anyone who actually has computing knowledge, like people in this thread, if we let the retards keep being retards

>>58556536
Autist here, while this is a great post I think I should mention that you should never explain HOW you do things, only WHAT you are doing. If your code is any good any programmer worth his own salt will be able to understand the HOW, but not the WHAT/WHY.

>>58556536
I actually had a client...really nice guy...tell me that I didn't charge enough. Your advice is probably spot on and the reason I hate being an independent contractor when I should be killing it.

I think I've always been afraid of not getting enough work if I charge higher rates. The housing crash really screwed with me.

Screen capped your post so I can think more on it tomorrow. Thank you anon.

Something I always wonder. How the fuck do comp sci tards get through the harder math classes required for their degree? Do they suck the professor's cock for a C?

>>58556592
>are terrible at math,
The tragedy of the 21st century.

>>58556621
They google it, cram it, and after the exams, forget about it. Rote learning at its finest.

>>58555759
we want our (int)Counter to be >=213, right?

>>58556632
No, the last number you print should be 206. Your loop would terminator prematurely.

>>58556621
Unfortunately math isn't really that difficult. You just work along with the class and do an assload of problems from the textbooks or other source materials. Then you puke up your tool-box of problems you can solve onto an exam and get an A. One semester later you promptly forget, and then three semesters later when you realize you missed a mathematics course you panic and have to relearn all this shit.

>>58556651
if the counter is 206+13, and i count down to 213, it WILL be the last iteration.

>>58555505

none of this even remotely reflects reality

>>58556731
The reality that you are, in fact, alone?

>>58556651
I mean, 219<213, std::cout << --counter;
or something like that

>>58555402
>Profs are more worried about making CS attractive than teaching well

nail on the head

also i had a 50 year old wymyn prof for my introductory programming course who never coded before.

that was a hoot.

>>58556740
The reality that none of this matters and we will all spend the rest of eternity not existing.

>>58555474
>a culture of puff
i think i know what you mean but would you mind elaborating on it some more? i think i'd like what you have to say

have you heard of the book "infantilization of the college campus"? i think that's kind of what's going on

>>58556782
>i think that's kind of what's going on
Kind of? You mean it actually is. Some college campuses offered puppies and playdoh as therapy when Trump won. That should tell you something about the state of post-secondary education.

>>58555707
>sometimes forgets simple concepts, and even i can deduct it's a simple conbination of for and if.


also posting a classic

https://css-tricks.com/tales-of-a-non-unicorn-a-story-about-the-trouble-with-job-titles-and-descriptions/
then you're just a dumbass who needs to work harder

The harvard cs50 course online is really bizarre, it starts you off with sesame street "programming" in scratch with promises of cake at the end of it and then interrupts lectures with videos of puppies if they covered anything "difficult".

The course itself seems ok, but the idea in my head of harvard and the presentation of this course couldn't have been more different.

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>>58555881
fuckin saved

>>58555759

public class Counter {
   public static void main(String[] args){
      int start = 700;
      while(start > 213){System.out.println(start-=13);}
      System.out.println("top kek");
   }
}

>>58557074
your loop is shit and you should feel bad

>>58557112
I can't feel bad when you don't tell me why

>>58556083
>the software space
>binary software

you sound like a good guy and all, but you are not cut out for this mate. stay in IT, become a director

>>58556281
>My university spent the first two years of my degree making me take random courses that have nothing to do with computing, now that I am a senior I am taking the real courses, but they never go past the most basic elements of the topic,


wrong. you didn't schedule your courses and took more electives than you should have. now you're 2 yeras in but you're taking the courses you were supposed to take in year one if had grabbed life by the pussy

>>58556887
>interrupts lectures with videos of puppies if they covered anything "difficult".
you have got to be joking

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>>58555131
This thread is the bullshit. The only reason why you deal with retards is that you are working in "No Name" company with shitty conditions. All smart guys are employed by top-5 (Apple, FB...), Unicorns and finance companies (only Goldman Sachs has 5000 programmers).

And also hardly kekked from retards who think that they can be hired by solving 'fizzbuzz'. Even you can solve this, it is just 1% of must do in order to get decent offer

>>58555275
>Comp Science graduates expected to memorize everything
Okay, dude. Tell HR to stop hiring.

>>58555426
Students are expected to do self-studying at their own time. Especially CS. But no one told them to do so.

>>58555505
1. Depends. My uni drops fail students.
2. Solve problems? They are taught to break them into smaller pieces.
3. Refer above. They ended up changing course to non-IT.

>>58557641
>CS graduate
>Learn macro
>Learn resource management
>Learn asset management
>Learn book-keeping
>Learn supply chain management
>Learn multimedia and art drawing for web content
You done fucked up when you chose it. People want you to create magic to ease up their workload.

>>58556352
Start learning business terms for starters while keeping your coding fingers in check by spending an hour or two on easy programs.

>>58556479
Try corporate walk-ins.

>>58555131
It's funny because I majored in Network Security, I code but mostly a hack to get by. Due to experience crafting exploits and tampering malware, my boss had me programming for awhile.

I didn't know how bad this situation you mentioned was, until I saw the horror the '''programmers''' were writing. Makes sence why programs are still vulnerable. What's funny is, most CS professors blame C/C++, and other languages that do not bounds check themselves.

>>58555471
>3/10 the author is a retard.

I think the problem is that the author is probably an old guy, and he's used to the word "engineer" as it was used 50 years ago. The whole article was just him resisting the broadening use of the word "engineer" over the decades. The English language changes over time. He just needs to get over it.

You could say the same thing about the word "programmer". I was rolling my eyes a few years ago when they started using the word "programmer" for people who typed raw HTML code into Notepad. The, a few years later, "programmers" were people who used one of those wysiwyg GUIs to customize a web page template so that they didn't have to get their hands dirty looking at HTML code.

Meanwhile, my job gives me these huge, open-ended problems like this: "We're putting a USB port on our next-gen products, so figure out how the field technicians can use a USB flash drive to install, update, and configure the firmware -- and the techs will have a Windows notebook with them, so let them use their notebook to load and configure the USB flash drive with all the right firmware, and make sure there's a way to prevent them from loading the the wrong firmware -- and, by the way, we also need the USB flash drive to automatically collect usage logs when it's inserted into the product, so make sure those logs get automatically sent to a server when the technician plugs that USB flash drive back into their notebook -- and, yeah, you'll need to set up that server too." And they called ME a "programmer".

>>58555480
What do most ppl with CS degree do then if it isn't programming?

>>58559377
Filling out food stamp application forms by the way /g/ talks.

>>58559377

tell other people what to code?

>>58555131
I can honestly imagine this happening. I'm a first year CS student at the mid-tier uni for my area (Not low entry requirements or anything) and half the people I talk to on my course either never programmed before taking it or say they hate / don't understand programming.
I honestly don't get it. I spent a year learning Java before choosing CS to make sure that, you know, I actually enjoy what choosing this path is going to have me doing for the next 45 years of my life.
For some reason I assumed some people on my course would be like you guys on /g/ but tfw you're the only one out of 200 people with a Thinkpad and the only one running Linux. Not that that means anything, but everyone using macbooks or consumer grade laptops running windows kind of suggests they don't really have a passion for technology.

>>58555131
You go to school for the diploma, not knowledge and skills.
The only good programmers I know are a mechanic and an electronic engineer who learned programming on the side.

>>58557675
wrong, I scheduled all my courses myself an I've only taken 1 elective

I'm in one of the top computer science programs in the country. They're too busy stressing over getting all A's in their highly theoretical CS classes to do any actual programming. I'm sort of an outlier in that I'm content with getting B's and C's and using that extra time I could be using to get that perfect GPA to work on my side projects. I've shown my simple programs to classmates and they are blown away by what you can do with programming. It's kind of hilarious, actually. Presumably most of the people in my CS program want to be programmers after graduation, so why aren't they programming?

>>58559776
>For some reason I assumed some people on my course would be like you guys on /g/ but tfw you're the only one out of 200 people with a Thinkpad and the only one running Linux. Not that that means anything, but everyone using macbooks or consumer grade laptops running windows kind of suggests they don't really have a passion for technology.
Oh god you're that autistic kid that never talks to anyone. Im so tired of you faggots. Why the fuck would anyone have a passion for technology while studying CS?
>first year CS
I get it now, you go to a shit uni that doesn't make you work 12+ hours a day

t. Computer Engineer who started programming at the age of 11

>>58559876
>They're too busy stressing over getting all A's in their highly theoretical CS classes to do any actual programming
this so much, i dont have time to code when the math courses take up all my time

>>58557074
>publicclassstaticvoidsystempublicprint
Java is horrifying.

>>58555131
le'ts clear up some bullshit.

>>58555131
>standford
you're either completely full of shit or deluded into thinking that your worthless no-name bumfuck nowhere piece of shit company has even the change to so much as attract even the lowest tier of female "standford" pity-graduates. People who can program work for companies that look good on their CV, and that can afford to pay them 150k starting before benefits. Nobody's CV says they were educated at Stanford and then went to work on to a career at Bob's Fishing Supplies and Web Development.

>>58555163
these people don't last more than one year at any good school

>>58555224
>>58555237
>>58555254
>>58555346
>>58555362
>>58555369
>>58555402
>>58555412
>>58555426
>>58555468
>>58555474
>>58555485
>>58555818
>>58556206
>>58556281
>>58556755
>>58557881
>>58559776
>>58559876
>>58559887
>>58559903

Look at these people. Do they even realize that they ( alongside their useless tuition-farm schools) are the problem here? If there are people in CS programs at your school that aren't 140 IQ at the absolute minimum (or work 23 hours a day to make up for it), you go to shit school.

It's isn't companies' fault that your low budget shithold universities don't teach anything or expect anything from you.

You should have gone to a good school.

Furthermore, all you retards complaining that "I have no time for programming because I have to do math or get good marks", "I'm not good at math waah".
THEN YOU'RE NOT CUT OUT FOR PROGRAMMING.

Fizzbuzz and count down from 700 to 200 decrementing by 13 are not "programming" problems, they're logic problems, math problems. Computer Science is a subset of Math for fuck's sake. Real computer science jobs (At FB, Google, Apple, MSR, et cetera) are not about fucking css and input validation in javascript. They're about algorithms. The things you're complaining that your school is teaching you. You idiots.

>>58559947
the fault is not in our stars but in ourselves

>>58559968
>Furthermore, all you retards complaining that "I have no time for programming because I have to do math or get good marks", "I'm not good at math waah".

lol kid, programming has nothing to do with CS. I already programming before i started with CS, if i waned to become a programmer i wouldnt study CS

>>58560014
CS is what makes programming possible.
And guess what, that includes programming!
They teach you a bunch of theory, but you have to implement that theory in code.
I was programming since I was a kid too, but the kind of programming done in computer science is fundamentally different in that it's usually more low-level, and more conscious of what is happening in the background.
For example, using java's Math.sqrt is progamming. Implementing your own square root algorithm in C (no standard library) is computer science (but still programming).

>>58560066
>programming in computer science
I guess you go to a shit scool

>>58559776
please post your idea of a non-consumer grade laptop

go ahead, ill wait.

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>>58555131
>Conducted an interview with a fresh standford graduate and he took 25 minutes to write a simple fizzbuzz program.
Sounds like bullshit to me, you sure you're not just making stuff up OP?

any employer fags willing to give an honest opinion of how hirable i am? ive got some concerns about my hirability given my performance at uni

>>58560093
I had to turn down offers for jobs I didn't even apply for to go to grad schools (and did paid internships at two of the companies I listed in >>58559968 there).

Then I had a full-time job (where I still work) at one of those top companies as well within 1 week of finishing school.

>>58560093
>>58560160
Also, not to oversell myself or anything but I'm not even American. One of those companies actually had reps fly down to my country specifically to visit my school and paid my living expenses in California for 3 months.

>>58555131
They get a whole bunch of theory and they come out thinking that they're bill gates. Meanwhile, some of us skip school, and have so much real world experience by the time that they graduate that we are their boss.

>>58560160
>within 1 week of finishing school.
Dude you're late, most people are offered jobs years before graduation

>>58555505
> Universities no longer fail students, instead try to push them along.
What? My university fails people with under 50% average and you have to repeat if you have under 60%

>>58560203
yeah i agree that their heads are filled up with the mantra: you are the new faceberg go out and change the world. new apps are the only thing that makes money.

>>58560217
I started within one week. As I said in the post, the offers were from much earlier.

>>58560224
This. My math classes regularly had averages in the 30s and 40s in my first and second years of undergrad. Grade inflation is for subpar universities so they can publish stats at the end of the year saying "Our average GPA is higher than at Harvard! Come here and give us tuition we're a good school we promise!"

>>58556057
Okay real advice time
1 go to a website like pluralsight or udemy or whatever
2 pay for a course that builds some application along with you like "build a full stack java app"
3 check the skills used in the app - if you don't know them all, buy a course for those too
4 complete individual skill courses
5 complete full stack course
6 Build your own full stack app and get it hosted somewhere

Now when you're in an interview you can talk about what you did and not what you know

What sounds better
a) I know linked lists and red black trees
B) here is my movie rating website, I sort everything using this algorithm and store it with this data structure because theory says it's the best choice

>>58556154
>>58556221
Best code coming through

<?php
for ($i=1;$i<101;$i++){
  if ($i%3==0 && $i%5==0){echo "FizzBuzz\n";}
  elseif ($i%5==0){echo "Buzz\n";}
  elseif ($i%3==0){echo "Fizz\n";}
  else{echo "$i\n";}
}
?>

>>58559947

No it is not you are just a faggot.

>>58557675
You are wrong m8, many US universities shove fucktons of early humanities shit on you.

For the first two years I only, according to their degree plan for a BS CS, took 1 cs class a semester until my junior year. Then junior year it jumped to 5 CS classes a semester until graduation.

>>58558471
The good goy security mindset of, "exploits dont exist if you have automatic bounds checking" results in some seriously shit-tastic code by people who never should've had a job,

>>58555131
This is personally how I'd code FizzBuzz in Java. Is this style acceptable? Took about 2 minutes to type up.

import static java.lang.System.*;

public class FIZZBUZZ
{
    public static void main(String [] args)
    {
        for(int i=1; i<=100; i++)
        {
            if(i%15 == 0) out.println("FizzBuzz");
            else if(i%3 == 0) out.println("Fizz");
            else if(i%5 == 0) out.println("Buzz");
            else out.println(i);
            
        }
    }
}

Oh, you fell for the comp sci meme.

It's true. They can't program at all, and the ones that can are absolutely horrible. I often wonder what these idiots spent the last 4 years learning?

>>58555131
Cause you hire people with enough buzzwords on their CV instead of actually intelligent people.

>>58556363
count down, not count up

>>58560982
Why import the entirety of System?

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>>58559968
>not programming problems
>logic problems

actually this anon is correct, the vast majority of 'programming' is just "solving problems with computation".

that's why books such as Polya's: How to Solve it, and even Descartes: The Discourse on the Method are the two most important books you can for being a good programmer.

all the math you learn is primarily to teach you abstractions, since compsci and programming is all about abstraction, and to teach you how to solve problems.

>>58555131
>Why can't 99% of computer science graduates actually program?

Because programming requires natural talent, like being able to sing or dance or act or compose music or play basketball.

If you have the natural talent, then school can help you develop it. But if you don't have the natural talent, then school is worthless.

The problem is that it's now extremely politically incorrect to admit that programming requires natural talent. We have this new push now that "everyone can code, especially girls". Well, it turns out that only a small percentage of people can code, so we're setting people up for massive failure by deliberately withholding the truth from them -- that they basically need to be born lucky and have the natural talent for coding in order to have a chance to become good at it.

If they don't have the talent for coding, they can still do it academically or recreationally (similar to, say, singing in a school choir, or playing basketball with your friends at the park) -- but it's not reasonable to expect people to pay to them do it.

Here's the cold, hard fact: You can take two job applicants with identical résumés: they went to the same school, took the same courses, did the same projects, and have the work experience. But one of them can easily be 10 times more productive at coding than the other. School has no effect on this. You can't tell which is which by looking at their résumés, and you can't tell during the interview process either.

>>58561187
Pajet/Pajet. That doesn't actually import the entire System, Java is smart enough to only import the parts that are needed

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>>58555555
uwu

>>58560093
>>programming in computer science
>I guess you go to a shit scool

They need to include some programming in computer science.

The need to make sure that the students see the material presented competently. They simply can't rely on some random high school teacher to teach it correctly -- the quality of computer instruction in the high schools is far too low for that.

However, a good college will fly through the introductory material pretty quickly, assuming that it's a review for the students. And if there are any students who struggle with it, then they will learn quickly that they're in over their head.

I was explicitly told by my department head to run my introductory programming course fast and tough, because they wanted the course to weed out the students who didn't belong in CS. CS, unfortunately, is one of those majors that attracts a lot of students who don't really know what it's all about, and you always get a few who think it's about learning how to use Excel and HTML and such.

And the programming review itself really doesn't have to take that much time to cover. Plus, it can serve as a springboard to introduce CS topics. For example, whenever I cover functions I always point out how the local variables and return address are saved on a stack, so the student has a concrete model for figuring out how nested function calls and recursion work. I can't trust a high school course to always cover that deeper level of understanding, which is why we can't really rely on the high schools to do much of anything other than just increase the percentage of students who can handle the accelerated pace at the college level.

We really can't afford the students to have any gaps in the introductory material, so we do need to cover it to make sure it got covered fully. There's no way we can have a student get to the Data Structures course and not know about pass-by-value versus pass-by-reference, or some such.

>>58556005
I am not against making logical simplifications like that, but it makes code less readable, and compilers will probably optimize it out anyways.

>>58560431
>>58556467
>>58556364
>>58556336
>>58556287
>>58555699
>not using lowest common factor
found the web devs


>>58555938
Holy shit wtf is this, you somehow managed to complete it with also showing how shit you are

>>58555402
Network engineering major here, alot of the issuses i see is a people who cant understand any program fail at thinking, and those who jist cant program but understand the logic is because they have no developed grounds for programming, those that succede in it generally started young age. We have to start treating programming like an actual second language if you want to see student preformance rise in it.

>>58555881
>pianooverflow
kekd

>>58555699
it looks like shit

>>58559968
>look at me I posted a bunch of random thoughts and acted like everything I said is connected in someway and insightful give (you)'s pls
here you go buddy

>>58555938
Im learning python since the first of this month, this is my attempt:

Fizz = 'Fizz'
Buzz = 'Buzz'
Fizzbuzz = 'Fizzbuzz'
for x in range(1, 1001):
if(x % 3 == 0) & (x % 5 == 0):
print(x, Fizzbuzz)

elif (x % 3 == 0):
print(x, Fizz)
elif (x % 5 == 0):
print(x, Buzz)
else:
print(x)

>>58559377
they work on hypothetical Turing machines at their hypothetical job

>>58562866
That's pretty much the begginers version

>>58562349
Lowest common factor for what? You still need to iterate all the numbers.

t. webdev

>>58562924
yeah i realize that, just wanted to try my hand at it

I'm trying to learn C# but I find myself forgetting shit almost as fast as I learn it

Since I'm going to need to learn other languages should I just start with java or something?

>>58562926
You're checking if %5 and %3 twice before you print n.

>tfw I actually can program but job comprises reanimating ancient database applications

Hopefully things will get better

>>58563003
Start with Python

>>58561265
>>58561265

why does this guide recommend reading a 60 year old computer science book? someone in the amazon review says it makes a huge deal out of concepts like recursion and stuff

>>58563066
NEVER EVER use recursion when working on a real project for a company

>>58563059
Why is Python superior? I need some reasons.

>>58563126
Teaches proper indentation, user-friendly syntax, easy string handling, etc.

Overall, just really easy to learn

If you're just starting out with programming, Python is the way to go imo.

>>58555131

A girl I know got into oxford for computer science and she doesn't even know what a computer is

>>58562866
The next step is realising that Fizz and Buzz are atomic but FizzBuzz isn't.

Doesn't really matter in the example but principally it matters in terms of scalability

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>>58555131
This can't be true.
My degree had a shit load of required, graded, programming assignments. Hell, any theory we did, we backed it with practical programs utilizing it. Everything from character recognition programs with probabilistic machine learning, to modeling the enigma machine using Erlang and pi calculus.

If anyone graduates from an institution and doesn't know how to program, that university is fucking shite.

>>58563093
Recursion will crash whereas iterating will go in an infinite loop. The stack overflow is way easier to debug and the program should be able to log it and continue gracefully. Arguably you shouldn't get into that situation at all, but that's like saying your code shouldn't have bugs in it.

Meanwhile, I'm a CompSci student getting straight As at a mediocre state school. I have a Github page with a dozen or so projects in Java, C and JavaScript and I can't even get an internship or interview. Feels bad man.

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>>58555367

>>58563241
recursion uses more memory and is way slower you moron.

see: fibonacci

>>58563289
Build the next Facebook but instead of keeping the shares like Fuckerberg, give me some

>>58563289

its cause youre a faggot

>>58563289
>I can't even get an internship or interview
>CompSci grads are this hopeless
I bet you literally apply to one place a week, faget.
Send your CV fucking everywhere and you'll have interviews.

>>58563364
Kek ikr FAMo

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>>58563364

I shall redouble my efforts.

>>58563389
>>58563372
Also reminder the firm handshake and look in the eye isn't a meme, once you've actually secured an interview it becomes your trump card.

Is CompSci degenerate, is it a meme?
Britbong here. I need fucking help.
So i've just done my A-levels, maths, computer science and fucking biology (college was shit, these only good things), so let's say I wanted to do comp sci at a uni, how long would it take to get a good job, is the pay shit? I'm a brainlet too btw.

>>58563430
>Also reminder the firm handshake and look in the eye isn't a meme,
this desu. Act like a fucking adult when talking to an adult in a position of hiring people

>>58563444
Nope.
I graduated last year, I'm earning £25K a year now, which is pretty fucking swell.
If you've got a natural talent for logic and programming, go for it.

>>58563444
A lot of high-paying jobs require a degree.

This is like needing a license to drive a car, doesn't make you a good driver unless you had a good teacher and a strict examiner. But you need one anyway.

You also need to prove that you're actually good to your employer, which means demonstrating skill, not just having the qualification ie programming something

>>58563481
As I said, brainlet.
I struggled for GCSE maths, but I can script. Not things too complex but stuff in Unity like AI, photon networking, and all round stuff with raycast, animation, etc.

Also, what's your job?

>>58563509
App development
Which is funny, I was hired with 0 knowledge of the swift language or iOS development and have been paid since day 1.
Although I believe it was a pretty good choice on the employer's part since a couple of months later and I'm now lead iOS dev for what is a pretty big company. Tens of thousands of users a day.

>>58563578
Nice.
I'll look into this, did shit with android studio years ago.
Applied to King's College, if I don't get in, then i'll go to any uni.
Hopefully not with any panjeets for group projects.

>>58556467
>not using switch statements
hello pajeet

I am afraid.
I am an IT student in college and I want to succeed. How do I not be a shitter? Is learning and understanding the material enough? I want to get a 2 year and get a job in the field before going back to finish my degree, so I have some work experience.

I've only started my study software engineering half a year ago, of which I've not even spend most of it on programming related courses (had to learn stuff from the other fields as well, such as System and Network Engineering, Technical Computing and even fucking Business IT Management...) and even I can solve these FizzBuzz and 700 to 200 problems in like 30 seconds.

I truly cannot fathom people applying to these jobs that need programming skills without being able to solve these problems. I simply cannot comprehend that. I barely qualify myself as a programmer and I've only written very simple programs and scripts, so I wouldn't even attempt getting a job in this field yet.

As a current junior in csci, what should I be expected to know to get a job in software development? What should the scale of our projects be? I have a few projects in my portfolio, but they seem small to me (Stuff like basic language processing, etc) compared to some stuff I hear about

Reminder that IT is not the same as CompSci.

>>58563684
just get gud

>>58558218
>1. Depends. My uni drops fail students.
My uni doesn't.

The Glorious People's Monarchy of Norway passed some reforms in 2001 that focused on improving graduation rates, and one of the most effective measures was to fund public universities based on the number of awarded credits.

In other words, their funding is directly proportional to the number of students they pass.

I should have failed several classes, but I got a passing "E" grade instead.

>>58560146
I've conducted 30 interviews for giant tech if it helps.

>>58555131
Why learn programming when consultant and management jobs pay way better?

>>58563754
>I should have failed several classes, but I got a passing "E" grade instead.

So you're part of the cancer then

>>58563774
>Not a normalfag fuck
>Don't want to be forced to spend all day talking to normalfags
>Enjoy programming
There's a myriad of reasons, anon.

>>58563684
There's no set thing you need to know or do. Make a website for someone. That demostrates you can actually make something and get paid for it (whether you actually got paid or not doesn't matter)

>Conducted an interview with a fresh standford graduate and he took 25 minutes to write a simple fizzbuzz program.
>Conducted an interview with a fresh standford graduate
>fresh standford graduate
>standford
Does anyone here even believe OP's fake ass bullshit story for a second?

>>58563772
how would you view a guy who performed very well distinction+, distinction+, distinction, in his college BTEC, but performed poorly because of procrastination at university?

>>58563876
What subjects?

>>58563876
If you actually graduated don't worry about it

>>58563876
>College BTEC
>Anything other than A*s in maths physics and chemistry (language and music for bonus points)
It's time to find some rope

>>58563888
BTEC IT at college, Comp Sci at university.

if youre not familliar with BTECs, theyre coursework heavy courses, typically with no exams at all, but emphasise practical coursework in a full time class environment. its not at the same level as a degree (level 3 qualification here in britain, as opposed to a degree, which is 4).

this
britfag here,
live in exeter, my compsci teacher can't into fucking python.
i have like 5 girls in my class, rest full of muslims (teacher pakifag too), and no ones knows shit, they ask me, and I help sometimes.
teacher even asks me to help sometimes kek, you're right op, no one can program these days

>>58563937
ik i'm a britfag too.
what uni did you go to?

>>58563975
Hull

>>58563920
BTECs are better than exam based systems IMO

>>58563918
ive yet to, but an inability to pull my finger out and do some work outside of a lab is kind of fucking me

>>58563959

Hah, I have a teacher who is literally the opposite, he can program really fucking well but he can't into anything else for shit, social interaction the least. I'm glad that I'm good enough to be doing the course with considerable ease, but it's glorious watching the rest of my class being on the verge of tears the whole time cus they can't understand it and he just cannot relate it to them.

He's an absolutely terrible teacher if your programming skills are slacking and only a bad one if you already know how to. At least I can follow his incoherent rambling so it's all good for me.

>>58564009
>IMO
BTECs are for ADHD tier underachievers
Everybody knows this

>>58555512
The prospect of having such a retard as a boss pains me in a uniquely horrifying way. Do you know what it is like to have to explain simple concepts such as a for loop to a boss who is supposed to be in IT and managing a website?

>>58563959
>can't into fucking python
it's like the easiest language. The code literally writes itself you just type import and set a few variables and you are done.

I don't even like python because of the syntax but with minimal effort and maybe a few google searches to toss together a curriculum I could teach better than he could.

>>58563920
5 a-levels > 4 a-levels > 3 a-levels

>>58564070
I have personal experience with such horror.

>>58564051
lyl
I also can't imagine not knowing the fundamental physics/chemistry/maths theory I picked up during my A levels.
I mean it literally applies to every day thought, I see something that I don't understand, give it some thought and, 'oh wait, I remember how this works...'

>>58564071
yes, i'm sure he's a dealer too, but don't have much evidence, just speculations due to the people he hangs out with.

he's kind a young, typical arabfag.

>>58564051
and this matters because?

>>58555131
>Why are so many computer science graduates so completely incompetent?
They're not.

>it's a huge problem when we try to hire people for programming related jobs and it turns out that the vast majority of applicants can't program whatsoever
Yes, but it's selection bias.

People who can't program will apply to hundreds of jobs every time they're fired.

People who can will only apply for a few jobs every several years.

>>58564171
:)

File: Swift_FizzBuzz.png (46KB, 467x470px) Image search: [Google]

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Mobile Dev here
This is how you do FizzBuzz in Swift

>>58564462
>not using emojis
get the fuck out of my office you incompetent grad

>>58564204
>People who can will only apply for a few jobs every several years.
Once you actually get your foot in the door and can communicate efficiently and do your fucking job(aka program), you don't really ever apply again. Unless you don't make a name for yourself nor have the likes of a github or any social media. In that case, you'll probably apply for specific roles in one specific company whenever you're fired.
So the rate is more like ~3 jobs every 5 years at the fastest.

>>58564462

extension Int {
   func fizzbuzz() {
       if self % 15 == 0 {
          print("Fizzbuzz") 
      } else if self % 3 == 0 {
        print("Fizz") 
    } else if self % 5 == 0 {
        print("Buzz")
    }
   }
}

protocol FizzbuzzAwareFizzbuzzableFizzbuzzer where Self: FizzBuzzableViewController {
    count: Int { get set }
    limit: Int { get set }
    func configureFizzbuzzable()
   func doFizzbuzz()
}

extension FizzbuzzAwareFizzbuzzableFizzbuzzer {
    func configureFizzbuzz(with limit: Int) {
        self.count = 0
        self.limit = limit
    }
    func doFizzbuzz() {
        for i in 1..self.limit {
           i.fizzbuzz()
        }
    }
}

>>58564516
>the rate is more like ~3 jobs every 5 years at the fastest.
3 buzz every 5 fizz?

>>58564710
fuck

>>58564516
>you don't really ever apply again. Unless you don't make a name for yourself
C'mon, m8. For every Lattner, Dean and Thompson that you can hire based on reputation alone, there's literally thousands of high quality developers you've never heard of.

You can't hire someone based on their github account alone unless their reputation already suggests that they actually did some of the work.

I worked at Google for 4 years, and while I have 5500 github stars for a project Facebook uses internally, I still had to apply and do interviews. I also had to apply and interview at Apple in spite of being referred by someone on the team.

>>58564798
As I said, even if they have zero recognition, they don't have to apply much because their work experience (once presented) speaks volumes.

Then there's also the factor of which company you actually want to work at. I get startup offers all the fucking time. Of course if you only care for working at Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft that you have to apply.

So I have no idea why you're behaving like it's an impossibility.

>>58564798
>Google
>Facebook
>Apple
Are you a giant anthropomorphic cup of Starbucks coffee?

>>58555131
>advertise shitty job at no name company for peanuts
>hurr durr why is everyone who applied awful!

>>58555377
Where I'm from, computer scientists are generally engineers with a master of science in engineering. There are exceptions of course, but they're never called engineers unless they're actually engineers.

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>>58564798
Maybe they're making a special exception for you, Max.

>>58564841
Nm, I was confused for a bit because I considered "~3 jobs every 5 years" and "a few jobs every several years" to be the same thing.

>>58565015
My favorite thing about this .png is that he's deluded himself into thinking that 90% of Googlers use Homebrew.

>>58555377

Some of them are engineers

Generally everyone that uses java = programmer

c++ = engineer

>>58555759
I've seen you post this question before in other programming interview questions thread.

I think it's misleading to say from 700 to 200, since ending at exactly 200 isn't possible with only decrements of 13. It's not clear whether you want them to count down until before 200 (to 206), or whether you want them to go past 200 (to 193).

If it's the latter, then I think it's a good question, because it's better suited for validation after the print rather than before it, so it wouldn't quite work with a simple for loop. Just a little bit of clarification would be good.

If you just want them to count down to 200 or above, a simple for loop would work, so I don't see why you wouldn't use a number that allows the exact lower bound to be reached.

>>58555699
learn to write readable code faggot

>>58555377
I agree, but my MS in CE says "civil engineer". It's a protected title where I'm from, and I'm legally entitled to call myself that.

>>58565061
I don't know if 90% is accurate, but since Google doesn't use Windows internally, I'd guess that there's a decent portion of Mac users, and Homebrew is somewhat of a necessity on Mac.

On a related note, I wonder what percentage of Googlers use 4chan.

>>58563017
Fuck off. You want to write a final else case? Then you'd need to write a separate if case for % 15 to print "FizzBuzz".

You can store the values of % 3 and %5 in booleans, but who the fuck cares.

>>58564475
Damn i fucking forgot about emojis

>>58556475
>being an oldfag copypasta sheep who thinks the traditional way of doing things is the right way
>what is being a creative problem solver?

Next company!

>>58556492
>>try to show off with recursion
>poorly thought out that it's almost painful to read
t. brainlet can't comprehend simple recursion and is awestruck an anon on a japanese castration board can write a recursive solution to a trivial babby question
"W-wow thanks for considering my application! I'm excited to hear back from you soon!"
*bins company*

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>>58564462
>>58564475
>>58565439
Not that guy but here:

>>58565283
If you're from the Nordic countries you're not a civil engineer despite what you're called in your native language. The proper translation is Master of Science in Engineering.

>>58555131
>Why are graduates so stupid?

Because those with the lowest intelligence breed the fastest and eugenics is no longer in practice.

>>58560888
well damn that sucks.

i'm studying abroad in kangaroo land and the uni structure is much different. you choose one elective in the first semester, 2 after that, but you have to hit 24 credits for your major on a 48 credit degree. you can take them whenever you want as long as you've satisfied the prereq's

>>58559055
>Meanwhile, my job gives me these huge, open-ended problems like this: "We're putting a USB port on our next-gen products, so figure out how the field technicians can use a USB flash drive to install, update, and configure the firmware -- and the techs will have a Windows notebook with them, so let them use their notebook to load and configure the USB flash drive with all the right firmware, and make sure there's a way to prevent them from loading the the wrong firmware -- and, by the way, we also need the USB flash drive to automatically collect usage logs when it's inserted into the product, so make sure those logs get automatically sent to a server when the technician plugs that USB flash drive back into their notebook -- and, yeah, you'll need to set up that server too." And they called ME a "programmer".

desu that doesn't sound that bad. sounds like a regular job. i hope you are fairly compensated though. whats' your pay/perks?

>>58559968
>Furthermore, all you retards complaining that "I have no time for programming because I have to do math or get good marks", "I'm not good at math waah".
>THEN YOU'RE NOT CUT OUT FOR PROGRAMMING.
>Fizzbuzz and count down from 700 to 200 decrementing by 13 are not "programming" problems, they're logic problems, math problems. Computer Science is a subset of Math for fuck's sake. Real computer science jobs (At FB, Google, Apple, MSR, et cetera) are not about fucking css and input validation in javascript. They're about algorithms. The things you're complaining that your school is teaching you. You idiots.

this

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>>58563959
>paki
found her diploma

>>58565015
at google they don't hire people who need to use google to do their job. they hire people who make google