Why is there so much resistance to ending the use of fossil fuels?

>>58379547
$$$

because (((fossil fuels)))

>>58379547
>that pic
not even possible.

>>58379547
>will produce as much electricity as a nuclear power plant
>during the day
>while taking up 4x the space
>and only works in certain regions.

People are heavily invested and it's a huge industry. Won't go easily.

>>58379547
so much wasted space because of the nuclear power bogeyman

>>58379573
> also we don't have the battery tech to store all the power for the sake of overnight use

Solar power is such a meme.

>>58379606
yeah solar can't be used for baseload power like nuclear can

Gobmint and companies dont have monopoly over sun rays, it removes their power over people

>>58379547
Solar and space exploration are such a joke.

Because the main alternatives are insanely expensive, unreliable, and inefficient. Nuclear is an extremely safe and powerful green alternative but the public is scared off by venture capitalists, coal and gas companies, and MUH CHERNOBYL spooks

>>58379571
It's probably a theoretical maximum compared to actual energy yields in a nuclear reactor

>>58379573
>>while taking up 4x the space

Yeah, that space was really being put to great use before

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>>58379606
The kind of solar plant that OP posted can actually store energy in molten salt and use its heat to produce electricity overnight

>>58379547
Solar plants arent a feasible option until the western world decided to purge Africa of all its humans. Not even joking, you need to get rid of Africans so you can exploit the continent for renewable energies. Its also required to make sure that humanity has a shot at survival.

As for your picture: building these parks costs money, while using nuclear power plants (that have existed for decades) doesnt.

>>58379547
>G-guise, we spent tonnes of energy, billions of dollars and years of manual labour on manufacturing this solar farm that is inferior to nuclear energy in every single way except storage of irradiated materials
>It's really invigorating my chakras, bro

>>58379547
Canadian here. This country has uranium and oil, no sunlight. If warming happens we basically just get worse summers, better winters, and the benefits of a longer growing season.

Explain to me why I shouldn't favour nuclear and fossil fuels.

>>58379570
As much as I hate newfag memes, this is undeniably correct.

>>58379573
>while taking up 4x the space
>and only works in certain regions.

Luckily the regions it needs tend to have plenty of open space

>>58379681
This is fucking tight. I'd love to see more of these.

>>58379722
>open space

GNU/Space

>all that wasted surface area for a meme plant

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>>58379547
really makes you think

>>58379547
btw that type of solar power plant is basically a death ray to all birds/insects in the area.

>>58379755
kek

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>>58379686
>Tfw you realize mass extermination, eugenics and colonization is the only logical progression for mankind

>>58379705
Yeah, it's not like it's because solar is a fucking awful energy source in comparison to oil and gas and now nuclear I superior in every way.

When technology advances it may become beneficial for rooves of most homes in sunny locations to be fitted with solar panels. Otherwise, it's a sensationalist joke.

How can anybody justify focusing on solar rather than Nuclear at this point in time? It's utterly ridiculous.

>>58379686
>One built, a nuclear power plant requires no staffing or maintenance
God damn it anon

>>58379794
You know what I meant. The proportional cost of RUNNING the already existing power plant is minuscule compared to the cost of building a solar park from scratch, especially when that solar park is supposed to generate the same amount of energy.

>>58379686
Why Africa? Australia has huge amounts of sun soaked unoccupied land.

The problem with solar is the cost of purchase and maintenance. Wiping the dust from all those panels daily and replacing failing ones.

>all these people believing the nuclear meme

The fact is that investing in nuclear isn't anywhere near as profitable as solar.

So unless you live in a communist shithole where government builds its own plants, no company in its right mind will invest in nuclear in the following decades. Not only because they will get much less money. but because their reputation would be severely damaged since most people are against nuclear.

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>>58379686
I'm not against getting rid of africa, but let's look at this map...

>>58379686
It's extremely difficult to move power from Africa to any other continent efficiently.

There's plenty of unused land in Africa that we could set up solar farms on already. We don't do it because we wouldn't be able to do anything with the generated energy.

>>58379681
>molten salt
I don't even know why but that sounds pretty cool

>rivers of molten salt
>salty flow

I always wonder what the thing at the top (the receiver?) is made of to withstand so much heat

>>58379681
>We've been using steam turbines for over a hundred years
Is using water vapor to spin a magnet really the only way we can generate electricity?

>>58379873
It's a surprisingly efficient and versatile way to generate electricity.

>>58379827
Space isn't the concern, dumbass. The US has enough space to fit all the solar panels it could ever need to provide the entire world with power.

Africa has resources and a large potential to double the population of barely literate animals. The annihilation of Africa could mean a much more comfortable survival for the rest of mankind for another millenia

>>58379873
>Is using water vapor to spin a magnet really the only way we can generate electricity?

Realistically, beside photovoltaic panels and some obscure NASA tier technologies, yes.

And probably the most efficient way to do it.

>>58379547

The cheapest source of energy will always be the most sought after.


Fossil fuels are the cheapest source of energy.

Fossil fuels will be used until renewable sources of energy are cheaper or the oil dries up.


I wrote a paper on the subject and there are other factors, this might put into perspective how shit renewable resources are at our current state of technology:

It is pretty much impossible to sustain the planets current consumption of energy with renewable sources. It was calculated that even if we put wind turbines on every piece of land on the planet (where applicable), we would still have no where near enough power to sustain ourselves.

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>>58379547

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_by_revenue

youre all fucking retarded. the major reason is not the money its that we still need fossil fuel plants for baseline demand because we cant store massive amounts of electric energy yet

you dont understand how the energy system works and supply / demand part of it

The thing about solar panels is that different models (by different manufacturers) either have shit direct light absorption or shit diffuse light absorption factors. People living near tropics lines cant use neither of them without giving up a big part of solar energy during hot (direct light) or cold (diffuse light) seasons.

My boy Elon musk finally released some decent modular diffuse-efficient panels but we're still a long way to go to actual global sustainment.

Either way you people buying panels right now are just like those guys who buy 4k pc monitors. The thing is basically a somewhat useful gimmick but it's going to be a standard once the price/efficiency ratio gets decently high

>>58379845
If Elon Musk rebranded Nuclear as some new and hip and cool sciencey energy thing then he could actually revolutionise the world, simply by manipulating idiots.

>>58379873
Oh boy, just wait until you learn about all the other critical life-essential technologies we rely on that have been used for over a hundred years at point

>>58379873
what happens when we run out of magnets

>>58379868
My guess would be ceramic

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>>58379547
Americans have become dumb, divided, afraid of change and seek to return to a "simpler" past.

Which is OK for a shithole nation, but not a superpower.

China will be happy to take the US's place as dominant world power.

>>58379931
Nuclear will be a standard as soon as all "environmentalists" are rolled in carpets and thrown off bridges.

>>58379573
you're a pleb for thinking all energy must be produced at a single location. solar panels can be deployed anywhere. they work everywhere. they go with batteries.

>>58379547
not ecological because it cooks possibly rare birds

PETA would be very against this cruel technology

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>Nuclear is cheap guys

>>58380062
Fossil fuels are even worse for wildlife.

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>>58379547
Same reasons people still use other deprecated technologies

>>58380109
like fire?

>>58379681
they work great, but you incinerate a lot of birds

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What2s wron gwith nuclera?

>>58379845

The only reason solar is barely profitable at all is due to the massive amount of government subsidies

Without them solar would be long dead

>>58380131
Fire isn't a technology tho

>>58379547
Because of cost efficiency. If your country is paying 5 times as much for energy as, say, China, it becomes literally impossible to compete in manufacturing.

>>58380158
>nuclear tard can't defend his failed technology
>falls back on bashing solar
every time

>>58379571
if you assume 1kw/m^2, you would need just a tad under 3km^2 of solar field to equal a 3GW nuclear plant. that looks about right.

of course, this would only be at zenith.

>>58380153
Waste

>>58380153
cost is the only actual problem
it costs quite a bit to build one and then decommission it

It can take like 15 years or something stupid like that to decommission a nuclear power plant

>>58379547
>energy density
i can "move" 1.6 death machine at 100kph for 10~15 kilometers while using less than 1kg of fuel, and don't mind "shit" efficiency of the ICE.
and all of this costs me about $1.


can your batteries do this without huge initial investment?

oh, and do you know that virtually everyone with enough free is able ICE (albeit with really low efficiency).
and it doesn't need dedicated 200Mhz CPU and and fuckhuge IGBTs to run properly

>>58380100
First off,
>Bloomberg
Truly an unbiased source from that beacon of truth, Michael Bloomberg.

As for the rest, that's just a graph of construction costs, and I'd like to see how they reached that 25twh figure.

>>58380169
ignition is

is the entirety of /g/ really this stupid and doesnt understand anything else besides computers which it understands barely or is it just this thread?
holy shit retards

>>58379547
because you won't shut the fuck up about it and we wish you would

theres nothing I can reasonably do about it and I don't give a shit

>>58380197
>/g/
>Understanding computers
/g/ understands how to regurgitate dumbed down information and fuddlore they heard from other people. /g/ doesn't actually understand anything.

>>58380196
We no longer use wooden sticks to ignite fires

>>58380197
if you want to discuss something that isn't anime wallpapers or discussing why one operating system is better than another one, /sci/, /diy/, and even /o/ would be better places to go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSo1SpzElbM

>>58380223
>What is a match

>>58379666
My problems with nuclear are that the industry has a history of halfassing safety standards and then lying and trying to cover their fuckups up when they happen, as with TMI and Fukushima. Better standards and oversight would take care of that, though.

The other issue is what to do with all of the waste, but unlike the greenfags I think burying it under a mountain sounds fine.

>>58380020
>China will be happy to take the US's place as dominant world power.

I'm sure it would be happy, but this will never happen. Well, at least not in this (or the next) century.

Yeah, yeah the media says that it will be.

ProTip: the media has been saying that China is the next big thing for 40 years now. Still not quite there yet, is it?

>>58380158
subsidies - gas and oil have been subsidized for years and we still got $4.50 a gallon gas.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-15/world-energy-hits-a-turning-point-solar-that-s-cheaper-than-wind

half the price of coal - good luck bringing back coal

>>58380224
And if you want to discuss anime wallpapers, /w/. Looks like there is only one thing /g/ is good for after all.

>>58380256
>$4.50 a gallon
Where the fuck do you live. It's 2.30 here.

>>58379547
Because of the environment.
A note for morons: Anyone who denies that coal and other fossil fuels harm the environmemt are trolling.

>>58380256
>we still got $4.50 a gallon gas.

What are you even talking about?

>>58379547
because muh 1% capitalism $$$ republicans Trump white privilege suburbs

We need free college and we should use weed instead of fossil fuel

>>58380293
>>58380309

I'm talking about a few years back. Gas is cheap now, but there is no guarantee it will stay that way.

I will be getting an electric car as soon as possible.

>>58379681
>The kind of solar plant that OP posted can actually store energy in molten salt and use its heat to produce electricity overnight
Isn't that also a pipe dream though. Could've sworn the whole Thorium meme depended on molten salt too and that it's a fantasy because it's corrosive or not efficient even using exotic materials today.

>>58380298
Coal and fossil fuels don't harm the environment any more than iron does. Burning them releases chemical compounds into the atmosphere, which in turn has various other effects on the system. There is no "harm" happening anywhere. Earth is just one giant system that is in constant flux.

>>58380197

/g/ is just a glorified consumerist electronics board compromised mostly of CS dropouts pretending to know about computers which are pretty much clueless about absolutely everything and viral marketers

>>58380360
>Gas is too expensive
>Let me buy something that needs half its worth in batteries every few years and has to be constantly recharged in the cold

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>>58380360
>Oil and gas prices go up
>Buy electric car
>Electricity costs more because it's all generated by oil and gas

>>58379695
This country gets lots of sunlight, but the key is to not use exclusively one. Our power should be supplied by a mix of solar, wind, hydro and nuclear. Put solar where it makes sense, wind where it makes sense, hydro where it makes sense, etc.

>>58380532
would be cool to see some kind of decent tidal power systems be readily available to add to this.

>>58380372
It pollutes the air which harms wildlife and makes people sick.

>>58380496
Depends where you live. Oil and gas energy generation on the grid is steam which is far more energy efficient than internal combustion engines, even including grid osses and AC->DC conversion.

>>58380643
Wildlife and people are organism which reproduce and die. One could also say that wildlife and people are harmful to the "environment" but that would be just as stupid and meaningless as saying fossil fuels are.

Because global warming has already been debunked, therefore spending money on less efficient alternatives makes no sense.

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>>58380714

Yeah, lets get rid of the EPA so we can compete with china

nuclear is fine

>>58380758
Not taking your lazy bait

>>58379571
It's a lithium melter column, not photovoltaic power
It's like heating a steam plant but with a giant magnifying glass

>>58379985
im more concerned what happens when we run out of water vapor
magnets are everywhere man

>>58380714
>but that would be just as stupid and meaningless as saying fossil fuels are
It's not stupid and meaningless at all you fucking retard. It's in our best interest to keep the planet in livable condition.

>>58379868
Suck my salty flow

>>58380785
people literally make this argument.

It is indefensible

>>58380814
>It's in our best interest to keep the planet in livable condition
Yes it is. The question then is, how do we actually accomplish that? To what extent can we actually control the entire planet to keep it under favorable conditions. And the answer to that is that even technologically, before the practical considerations of organizing the actions of millions of individuals are taken into account, there isn't much we can do. Burning through tons and tons of oil in a few decades is easy enough for a billion people, controlling the after-effects is impossible.

Solar will replace fossil fuels when it's better.

It's about what's better. There's literally no other reason. Not even money.

Nothing beats the portability and energy generation of fossil fuels right now. Some day that will change. Today is not that day.

Why don't they just bounce light between two mirrors forever until you need it later?

>>58380983
This why coal is done. Wind & solar are cheaper.

>>58379547
>muh solar power


it's the most overrated "green" energy.


And i'm talking about those shitty cells they use. 85% of them work for 5 years and you'll have to spend some serious money to get ones that will last you decently enough

>>58380224
>/sci/

sci is almost as bad as /g/ senpai, it's full of retarded highschoolers and undergrads

>>58379547
A relative of mine works in the oil industry. Basically, it's because he doesn't want to lose his job. Once we run out of fossil fuels he'll either be retired or dead so he doesn't care.

He claims that keeping "that newfangled shit" running is expensive, but I wonder how true that is. I'm sure it costs a pretty penny to keep the current shit running as well.

>>58380809
If we run out of water vapor we will just take some regular water and vaporize it, what a dumb question

>>58379873
>Currently most efficient solar solution is heating things with the sunlight to run turbines
Yes

>>58379547
Because MUH JERB

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>>58380532
>This country gets lots of sunlight
Wat

So what's going to happen when we eventually run out?

Because it would put (((Them))) out of business
Literally the land is worthless and with solar panels it will be out to use there is no real reason to not invest as you will always receive a return. And unless your home has some sort of bitcoin miner running in it you don't really need much energy per home.

>>58381150
We'll have stellarators by then :^)

>>58380186
Active/passive ratio for a concentrated solar is about 3. So you need about 9-10km^2. That being said, it all boils down to Power/Dollar and in the end EROEI.

>>58379666
I live in south australia and our government came up with the idea to open a large scale nuclear waste dumping plant in the desert for international use. i think its a great idea but the greater public has pretty much instantly written it off as the next chernobyl and gone back to complaining about our extremely high unemployment rate and industry shutting down

>tfw tesla was right

>>58379606
>what are pumped-storage hydros
>what are industrial flywheels

>>58379695
>no sunlight

Literally Mordor.

There is artificial geothermal.

>>58379573
>will produce as much electricity as a nuclear power plant
If the image is correct, sure. Not sure I believe that.
>during the day
So build two of them.
>while taking up 4x the space
Not an issue, we have plenty of space.
>and only works in certain regions.
Better to build some than none.

Its expensive for consumers, it destroys capital of businesses who invested in fossil fuels for no good economic reason the industry is so big they pretty much own the government.

But Shell for example is starting to invest in clean energy.

>>58380496
Oil and gas are not primary sources of electricity. Coal, nuclear and hydro is.

>>58381033
Don't buy Alibaba chinkshit solar panels then.

The proper brand ones have up to 25 year warranties.

>>58379860
>It's extremely difficult to move power from Africa to any other continent efficiently.

Incorrect. HVDC lines are extremely efficient. The main problem with africa is politics - too many unstable shitholes to invest $Billions. At the same time Iphone lefties are going to whine if you move in with military force because 'muh recolonisation'.

>>58379547
our world literally runs on cheap oil
transitioning to fully electric isn't possible right now
>US railroad has too many long stretches through empty land with no access for powered rail
>semi-trucks would not be weight-efficient with current technology
>cargo ships would need giant motors

>>58381219
Are you enjoying those state wide blackouts when there's a light breeze? Because I'm not.

>>58381134
the northern hemisphere looks really weird in that map, but just because it doesn't get as much as africa doesn't mean it doesn't get "any sunlight". I personally know people who have solar panels on their roof and they pay for themselves in a few years from money they save on power. I think in some provinces you can even sell power back to the city grid if you produce a surplus, although again that'a a mix of solar, wind and geothermal usually.

>>58381375
Transport is not an issue. If you have a strong primary source of energy, then you even can pump out oil out of shit if that is what you fancy. You can always manufacture some sort of diesel. The deal is that once easy oil runs out, your primary source must be something else.

>>58379686
>using nuclear power plants (that have existed for decades) doesnt cost anything
Kek

>>58381375
It will take a long time for long haul trucks/train locomotives and cargo ships to run on electric. They can however run on biofuels. If every other vehicle, apart from aircraft obviously, switched to electric, it would already be a huge achievement.

>>58381373
>HVDC lines are extremely efficient
Nowhere near enough to maintain low resistance across the span of continents you moron.

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>>58381384
>Pylons collapse because they weren't rated to handle the wind speeds
>Better blame renewables :^)

>>58381373
>DC
>Efficient
there's a reason every single transmission line is HVAC

>>58381427
why dont we make planes out of solar anels. they're above the clouds so they get 100% sunlight

you're welcome boeing

>>58380100
>Only showing initial costs, rather than factoring in operating costs over several years.
thanks gas industry shill
Nuclear is the safest, cleanest, and cheapest option and will be for a long time. Fossil fuels can't compete with the future

Maybe someday for solar/wind, but energy storage technology has a long way to go.

>>58381446
>Nowhere near enough to maintain low resistance across the span of continents you moron.
Longest HVDC is almost 2000km. You'd have more trouble getting silicon to straighten that shit then sending it.

>>58381460
Because we didn't have affordable and efficient solid state high current semiconductors a century ago when they were built.

>>58381460
Yes there is. There was no tech in XIX century to send megawatts with DC. Actually over longer distnances (500+km) HVDC are more efficient.

>>58381511
>Longest HVDC is almost 2000km
And lines from Africa to America would be 10,000km+

>>58381486
>Nuclear
>Cheap
laughing gas and coal plants.jpg

>>58380241
>Corruption, not folliwing safety standards
totally valid concern.
>All of the waste
literally a tiny fraction of what solar and fossil fuels produce (per megawatt-hour), and so concentrated it is incredibly easy to contain (comparatively)
>>58380968
Something something tragedy of the commons.
Personally I think the best solution launched so far is a cap and trade system, so people and companies/firms will be motivated by self-interest to reduce pollution or offset it somehow.
Obviously this won't work worldwide, but all of the major powers should self-regulate (such as china and India are beginning to do)

It doesn't matter if you are worried about climate change or just air quality, it's hard to defend unregulated pollution.

>>58379573
Actually most regions have sunlight, so yes they do work in all regions

>>58381543
Thusly?
Also - capcha hates me.

>>58381460
Then why are all undersea power lines HVDC?

>>58381486
Im a big supporter of nuclear, and I know they're like 99.99% efficient now, but the problem lies in what we do with the nuclear waste. You can't just keep dumping it down old mine shafts forever. Which is literally all we're doing it with it, I've actually worked at some job sites where I've had to wear a geigercounter because the power plant, or hydro dam, or whatever is built overtop of an abandoned mine where they bury old depleted nuclear waste, and the radiation has a tendency to kind of flare up or come out in bursts. Im almost positive there has to be some longterm environmental impacts or effects from doing that. Even if they're hundreds/thousands of years down the road, I still dont think its the best way to handle the situation, but honestly I cant think of anything better

>>58381562
Not enough sunlight to actually make it viable for the cost.

The less direct sunlight you get, the more panels (and space) you need.

At a certain point, it simply isn't worth it.

>>58379547
that stupid ass thing doesn't generate nearly as much as they thought it would

>>58381553
In countries where they are heavily subsidized sure. Not so for the rest of the planet.
If the US and Russia would get their heads out of their asses and let market forces acually work, we'd all have cheaper energy and cleaner air.

>>58381586
There is no way to efficiently move power from Africa to America, even by using an HVDC system. The resistance of your conductor is just going to be too much.

>>58381558
>cap and trade system, so people and companies/firms will be motivated by self-interest to reduce pollution

australia had a carbon tax. a friend of mine for a gas company figured out it was cheaper to take raw gas from central australia to adelaide (several thousand km south), ship by sea to indonesia and refine it there then bring it back instead of paying the tax.

>>58381242
Flywheels can not store enough power for this scale. It just isn't feasible. Hydro only works in places where the landscape supports it.

>>58381594
You get the same solar flux. The difference in weather is made by the angle of the ground to it. Essentially - in canada the same flux is spread over larger area.

You can make a solar power plant on the north pole, if you wish, it's just needs to be vertical.

>>58381589
The ecological downsides of fossil fuels are hitting us in the face right now. Lets at least jump to something better instead of waiting for fusion of some other perfect technology.
>>58381594
It depends a lot on cost of manufacture and installation. If they are dirt cheap to make and install, then they make sense in even less-than sunny places. If they are expensive and brittle, they are a poor choice even in the middle of Arizona.

Supply of solar panels and the technology/construction they use varies widely so its hard to make a blancket statement like solar=good or solar =too expensive.

>>58381636
That's exactly what I said, it takes a fuck ton more space.


Also, solar still can't be used for baseload power generation.

I can fully get behind 30% nuclear and 70% solar/wind/etc renewables. But we NEED some amount of baseload power generation. Nuclear is the best option.

>>58381629
With the current mining tech you can dig yourself a cubic mile worth of underground facility. With 1km of average depth and cubic km of volume, you can store enough energy in water to feed an entire country. You can make a pumped storage just about anywhere you wish.

>>58381599
Nuclear is only ever affordable if the state takes complete responsibility for insurance and funding.

>>58381616
fucking impressive
>>58381629
it's amazing that one of our top-tier energy storage technologies is literally spinning up a huge concrete wheel.

>>58381658
>I can fully get behind 30% nuclear and 70% solar/wind/etc renewables. But we NEED some amount of baseload power generation. Nuclear is the best option.

Yes. That is true. Percentage might be off, but you need a stable background energy source to make up for inherent variability of current renewables.

Solar power satelites are decades off :(

>>58381672
not that anon but shouldn't the state do that for socialized industries? Most states in the USA have energy companies with legal monopolies (or nearly-so). It seems reasonable that the state would take on insurance costs, or write laws freeing them of most fault in the event of a disaster.
Otherwise investor's will simply be too afraid of sensationalized meltdowns and whatnot to ever want to fund a nuclear venture, and we will be stuck with coal forever.

>>58381655
Oh ya its obviously better than burning coal, but still, I think just burying nuclear waste is sort of irresponsible. Even when its a km down under the ground, it still seeps out (as I said I've literally worn a geiger counter on some of these sites and had to evacuate and have my clothes washed and tested). And I noticed that all the techs that worked at these power plants built over old mines converted into nuclear waste disposal sites looked like they were the spawn of incest. Fucking moles and boils and weak chins all over the place, but I dont know if that was the radiation, a coincidence, or the fact that these were extremely isolated areas that offered easy as fuck high paying jobs and they'd basically only attract the quasimotos of the world

>>58381705
They're highly regulated utility companies. They can't do shit without the state saying so

>>58379547
We should build more nuclear power plants. It produces a lot of electricity, is cleaner than coal burning, is cheaper than solar energy

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>>58379573
And what happens when Yellowstone erupts blocking out all sunlight?

>>58381709
I could beleive either one, but don't forget the kind of shit that happens to coal/oil workers.
Radiation is scary as hell, but i feel like we've become desensitized to fossil fuels so badly that we aren't even cognizant of their dangers anymore. We should be having an apples-to-apples discussion but that's basically impossible in such a coal-powered society.

>>58381730
>what happens when a national park erupts

>>58379573
>while taking up 4x the space
yeah, all that sand going to waste

>>58379547
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_bubble

>>58379559

First answer, best answer.
As usual.


>>58379573

>grand grand grand nephews don't die in 2120 because a teaspoon of radioactive waste accidentally contaminated the complete US for centuries

>>58381760
"during the day" really should be your point of contention

>>58381730
You mean Mt. St. Helens?

>>58381673
No, it isn't. That storage medium is only used to ensure that the output power is always at a specific frequency for AC power regulation, its intention is not to store power long term, but to store it short term to handle minor fluctuations in the network, it cannot handle the power required to store and output power in the region of 10's of MWh consistently over the period of one night. The giant flywheels in power production facilities? They handle in the region of kWh.

>>58381663
That's not a terrible idea, and many others have said the same thing, but it once again comes down to convinience. Can you use the coal mine from 50 years ago? Probably not, so you have to dig it, at which point there are likely other alternatives that are more suitable such as tidal lagoon power. The point is that any solution will not be comprised of just one technology, but likely an amalgamation of many that already exist.

>>58381776
Why? Solar production only works during the day and battery storage simply doesn't exist to store massive amounts of energy for any significant period of time.

>>58379547
so retarded
Why build them hotizontally they could put them vertically and save alot of space

>>58381795
if plants can do it, so can we

>>58379547
>As much electricity as a nuclear power plant
Bullshit.

>>58381757
oh ya its just as bad, if not worse, I've seen the effects of black lung, emphezema, etc as well (my job involves lots of contracting work for energy companies, I've worked at solar fields, nuclear plants, hydro dams, coal mines, uranium mines, etc), there's honestly pros and cons to pretty much everything. But all the workers at these places are making 6 figure wages, so they dont really complain (people who complain are "laid off" indefinitely), the days of the poor coal miner selling his soul to the company store are long gone.

>>58381795
You are agreeing with me. I was criticizing anon's space argument by suggesting a valid one.

>>58381841
yeah keep moving that goalpost

>>58381792
>That's not a terrible idea...

I know. The point I am trying to make is, that with sufficiently powerful source you can dig just about anything you wish. We have paved thousands of square miles of ground with concrete and termac after all. Or laid thousands of miles of two metal rails joined with timber plank. In XIX century.

If need arises, we always have options. But obviously, if we can store energy in more convinient form, we should.

>>58381819
I mean, it probably generates more than the nuclear reactors you'd find in a submarine or college lab. But that's a pretty dumb comparison to make.

>>58381841
Whoops I thought i was replying to >>58379573
That said, I'm not sure you know what "moving the goalpost" even is
Solar has major drawbacks. Taking up lots of space is the least among them. You should be talking about the valid ones, such as dependence on weather and energy production exclusively during daylight. That is what i was attempting to communicate.

>>58381858
>>58381918
God fucking damn it I keep clicking the wronf post to reply to.

>>58381934
stop hitting the bong druggie

>>58379547
That plant won't work very well with Kazim in power until it gets new laminate coating on the mirrors.

>>58380249
but...China is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> America
They just don't get involved in everyone elses buisiness

>>58381918
>I'm gonna invalidate this source of energy that has been the basis of all life on earth since its conception cause i'm a pessimistic lil bitch
if people like you were in charge we'd still be living in caves

>>58379942
He could convince his zombies to eat their own crap by saying it's hip, green, and goes against oil.

>PayPal was going to be payments of the future.

>>58379547
sustainable energy is the work of communists!

>>58382026
America
>Oh no that can't possibly work it will cost too much money and besides focus groups say it will piss off meme voter groups and it isn't in the business interests of party financial backers

China
>Do we need it? OK then build it.

>>58381449
Shouldn't have used chinese knockoff steel.

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>>58379547
because i drive a goddamn v8 son

someones gotta make the fuel so i can drive a block

>>58382250
Do you feel high and mighty, smugly proclaiming what a success it is that the government wastes billions fucking around with solar solely because of the phobia surrounding nuclear?

>Haha, take that, you stupid capitalists!

>>58379738
your reply made me throw some air thru my nose

have a (you)

>>58382398
all that money would go to the military anyway

Why can't we matrix niggers? That way they may contribute something worthwhile to the species.

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>>58379547
>Why is there so much resistance to ending the use of fossil fuels?
A few things:
>Only viable alternative is shrouded in misinformation and FUD.
>entire world economy dependent on oil.
>most of the power infrastructure in the world is dependent on fossil fuel power plants.
>richest and most influential people on earth own the fossil fuel industry.
>replacing every fossil fuel power plant with a nuclear one, even "cheap" ones like LFTRs, would be the most expensive project ever attempted in the history of mankind.

>>58379547
Cause Nuclear is best power source.

I fucking hate our Government. Bloody dumb Malcom sending all our Urnaium to the gooks. The chinks know thats what the fuss will be all about when oil comes close to an end.

Aussie government is the most evilest Jew out there. He dosent even want to come out as a Jew, because is he does we will impeach him.

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>>58382606
Forgot pic

What our PM was doing on Christmas

>>58379671
>live in the desert
>actually enjoy being able to see 20+ Miles along mountain ranges, hills and flat lands
>cityshitters fuck it all up with pointless power stations
>windmills ducking up 100s of Miles of gorgeous mountain sides for the same amount of power 1 nuke can maintain
>endless sea of black solar panels shading areas that were once great planes of bushes and wildlife
>death Ray solar towers that fry the few birds that choose the same live in the desert I have.

Fuck you and your renewable bullshit. Build 2 damned nuclear stations and stop fucking up millions of miles of open free country side just because you think brown = barren and dead.

>>58382549
Australian politics is so irrelevant we may as well just meme pauline in for the hilarious shitstorm that will follow.

>>58382657
If she does half the shit she said by next year. I would not be angry if she was elected. She would legit make Australia a first world country again.

>>58382628
But anon, those solar panels are literally cooking your next meal for you. Birds are tasty.

>>58382679
No idea what she's said. I haven't been in the country for two years. I'd prefer to remain not in the country but my gf wants to go home.

>>58382365
>Dirty v8
>Insulation is cracking
>Boxy design

fuck off Cletus, get a better truck

>>58382680
Nuclear would do the same thing, taking up less space, and provide continuous non-stop high levels of power 24/7.

Solar is inconsistent depending on local conditions, doesn't work at night, and can't handle peak loads efficiently.

>>58382365
Also

>duc tape

kek

>>58379705

>Newfag memes
>something actually funny for once

You are pure nofunallowed

>>58382705
She actually says things and does them. Shes been very very good in parliment. Literally fucking anyone in the ass that argues with her (shes the ones who starts them too). What country are you in now?
Also what state are you from.

>>58382747
Japan. NSW.

>>58382762
NSW is great. Unless you live in Sydney or Wollongong.

Why in Japan? Is it much better there? I hear Japanese see us as we see blacks.

>>58382774
Live in Sydney.

My gf is Japanese but born in aus. She wanted to spend time with her family here and I'm doing a teaching degree so it seemed a good opportunity to get some experience for the CV.

Way better here imo. Some shit's annoying but the pros outweigh them. Not at all. Well obnoxious loud burgerstani cunts maybe. Japan is extremely ignorant about anything outside Japan.

For example, Christmas food. In Japan every gets KFC for xmas. When I told my students and JP m8s that that's just a Japan thing and outside Japan most people have a roast and/or ham it blew their minds.

Think of your cultural knowledge of some far flung shithole. Say Turkmenistan. That's the average JP for everything outside Japan.

>>58379547
>making a thread about ending fossil fuels
>illustrating it with a solar plant
Why the fuck is everyone always talking about solar and wind power when it comes to alternative energy sources, when there are so many better options?
Also, the real issue was never how to obtain energy, but how to store and transmit it. That's why petrol is so popular.

>>58379547
>Cloudy day
>night time
this kills the solar farm.

>>58382868
>Think of your cultural knowledge of some far flung shithole. Say Turkmenistan. That's the average JP for everything outside Japan.

Can't really blame them though, they have been culturally isolated for generations, and even with globalization the language barrier keeps most cultural influences out.

>>58382868
That sounds great. Apart from eating KFC, thought they'd be a little more decent. Sounds much better than Islam filled sydney. Btw, there are more gays, muslims and Indians in Sydney since last year

>>58382919
The language barrier is bullshit. The only reason it exists is because the curriculum is a fucking joke. In the public school system students don't officially learn the roman alphabet until year 5. As a comparison I have a mate who taught in Korea before coming here. His year 6 students were reading Narnia in English.

>>58382944
My understanding is the KFC thing came about due to burgerstani expats.

>>58382963
>The language barrier is bullshit
>The only reason it exists
It's not bullshit if it exists, you might think it can be gotten rid of, but it obviously exists.

>>58381013
nice meme

>>58382986
I mean it only exists because it is supported through nonsensical curriculum. It could easily be fixed but it won't because "I learned English that way and it was fine for me". Senior high school English has literally zero speaking or listening components outside of English specialised schools. What's the point of even having it as a subject if you're going to ignore the major communication portion?

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>>58379547
>solar
>not superior german holzgas

Well the fact it cost more energy to make solar panels then solar panels make throughout their life makes it a hard sell without massive government subsidies

>>58381427

>biofuels

I wonder if you could use human waste for that. India would be a true superpower then with its shitting streets...

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>>58383093

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>>58383133

>>58379606
If we reduce our fossil fuel dependence the remaining fuels will last much longer. Most power usage is during the day anyway, so solar can take a huge chunk out of the daily dependence.

>>58379547
Fossil fuels still work when the sky is cloudy and the winds are calm.

Actually, what we'd need first is a way for storing energy. Right now power plants work by constantly providing a peak output that is higher than the usage. If we could store the excess, then the plants would only need to provide equal to the average power usage, not the peak one, which would significantly reduce the amount of work they would have to do.

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>>58383148

>>58382986
If you're actually interested this is a really good read
http://www.nuis.ac.jp/~hadley/publication/keiwakokusaika/culturaltefl.htm

>>58379547
>Anon shiposts: 223 / 20 / 108 / 2
>almost no math
Our two observations share a common cause

>>58383190
>that formatting

Looks decent enough to read though.

>>58383176
>when the sky is cloudy
Actually depending on your climate, some places clouds make solar better because it reflects and traps light.

Also pairing solar/wind with battery storage is the real good shit, even if you use inefficient storage like the pump based systems it still ends up being quite good.

>>58383258
pair it with nuclear baseload power stations and bobs your uncle.

>>58381759
>>58381782
>not knowing about the Supervolcano
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera

in 10-20 years no on is gonna remember solar panels when thermonuclear reactors will take over

>>58379547
Uranium isn't a fossil fuel.

How's fusion looking these days? Still not happening any time in the relevant future?

>>58383357
>the best chance for humanity reducing impact upon the climate relies upon fusion
Some of the time I feel like if we are able to do it in a reasonable time scale we will have avoided any future problems without ever having to do anything after not caring at all
>>58383382
Come back in a decade and find out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER

>>58381449
The issue was that all those windmills stop turning in high speed winds, and then your state depends on coal power being fed in from Victoria. And that link has no redundancy. A couple of poles go down and most of your state is fucked.

Weatherill is a tool. His renewable push gave you the highest power prices in the country, and a dependency on someone else's coal to suport it. South Australia's claims of >50% renewable power are based on bullshit.

And now Andrews is going to do the same thing in Victoria. There goes your backup.

The American posters here are a perfect example of someone who was given way too many trophies for coming in last.

The attention span of a squirrel and absolutely no idea what the word focus even means, nor do they understand that they will be fact checked but their mommy told them they were the smartest kid she had ever...known... so they just think as long as they are talking they are winning... winning like Charlie Sheen.

>>58383395
We would be able to do it decades ago but for some reason no one really seemed to take seriously pursuing it. IMO the countries who had the best predispositions to go after it had too much invested in fossil fuels

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>>58383476
Butthurt yuropoor detected.
It's great to be an American, and nothing you do can ever make you one.

>>58383542
>We would be able to do it decades ago
What makes you think that?

>>58383542
ya, I think the biggest problem is that the it should be something that you would assume that free energy lmao would entice private companies to invest into but I think they figured that if you developed it you would just be nationalized or have the equivalent happen to.

>>58383395
>Come back in a decade and find out
Even then, DEMO is really the first reactor that will tell us if Fusion can be done by 2050 commercially. If DEMO goes off without a hitch in the 2030s, expect PROTO by 2050 with others to follow shortly after.

Once people see it's possible I think we'll see a good deal of funding flood in.

>>58383542
No, the biggest problem is ((they)) are heavily invested in fossil fuels.

>>58383614
I'm waiting for batteries to go into more things so that we are start making lithium with fusion.

>>58383680
Eh? Lithium is a basic element.

>>58379578
pretty much this

>>58383720
Yes, and?

>>58383566
>What makes you think that?
1951 - first thermonuclear bomb detonation
1955 - first controlled reaction (repeated many times after in tokamaks, not efficient though)
then things went in two separate paths:
1973 - limiting the reaction to just a few atoms, by firing microexplosions by a laser (but not in a continuous way though)
second path:
1983 - pumping up the scale; large enough tokamak should produce more energy, which was up to this day never build, but in 1983 JET started to function allowing to make precise estimates for the parameters of a bigger reactor, which was supposed to be build "very soon".

Because people still equate things like coal = jobs, even though only a very small portion of people work in/around the mines.

Starbucks has more employees in the US than there are miners by a long shot, yet no one seems to really give a shit about them. Yet a job that has equally uneducated people working in it somehow does.

The federal government can't even take care of the decommissioned nuclear waste it has, let alone all that's coming in the next 10 years when dozens more plants get decommissioned. Knowing this, why do you want more nuclear power?

>>58379547
Because we don't have the battery tech to store that power or the renewable tech to build enough power to store and keep a decent modern city going.

Basically if the world went green today all major cities would revert to the 19th century, liberals would be literally murdered for being responsible and then we would go back to using fossil fuel and nuclear energy.

Also whites are going to be a minority soon and brows don't give a fuck about muh green energy so expect that research to stop in about twenty years.

>>58383720
>you can make lithium with fusion
>increasing the amount of the fusion curve you use while making energy could then generate more demanded end product

FUCKING NORMIES GETOUT OF MY FUCKING DESERT
GO TO SAHARA IF YOU LIKE COLLECTING SUN SO MUCH

>>58383788
If Starbucks goes under the people working there can get a job from Walmart or whatever. If a coal mine shuts down all the workers there will be unemployed. There aren't any businesses that could utilise the skills they have learned over decades.

>>58383892
how about they just mine things besides coal you dumb luddy

>>58383906
There will be work for 'em in the oil industry and gas industry.

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>tfw forever 20 years away
Wendelstein is pretty cool. Also, ITER any minute now.

The biggest appeal I have with solar is having a local grid on my house. They need to become more efficient though. Maybe Musk can meme solar panels to the next level and bring out the good stuff in 10 years.

>>58383395
>ITER
But isn't that basically designed to fail, being a tokamak? The only reason for tokamaks to be even considered viable was the common knowledge that (actually working) stellarators can't be build - which has been proven wrong by Wendelstein 7-X.

>>58383788
>Because people still equate things like coal = jobs
More like cars=jobs. Consider e.g. Germany.

>>58379873
It's possible to extract electrical current directly from the plasma of a fusion reactor by way of the containment system, but of course we need to get a sustainable fusion reaction going.

>>58383967
Except besides the materials being used failing rather quickly, the actual energy being produced is better than expected by a slight amount, meaning DEMO in the 2030's should produce more than it uses.

The real thing we're doing right now is developing the tech and the materials to keep the containment vessel and related components from being destroyed during normal operation.

DEMO will be a good test bed for many new materials currently being worked on, PROTO should be the first commercial Tokamak reactor and all current signs point to it being online by ~2050.

Tokamak isn't designed to fail, look at the latest numbers, they're VERY encouraging.

Green propaganda has poisoned the well of renewable tech. The ones in for the money (Al Gore for example) put such a bad taste in people's mouths they take on a pro fossil fuel stance as an ideology. Really we should be phasing to renewables as the become feasible and relying on fossils to carry us till we can transition.

>>58379547
because there is loads of money in fossil fuels and they are WAY cheaper and more efficient than the most common green alternatives

solar is horribly inefficient and expensive right now; maybe in a decade it will be viable. Wind is a joke and completely inefficient compared to oil.


I don't trust facebook tier image macros like in the OP because its complete bullshit.

>>58379859
solar power is significantly less efficient in hotter climates.

>>58380236
>He thinks phosphorus is the same thing as wood.

Because large corporations profit from keeping us using fossil fuels.

and conservatives are in bed with the fossil fuel companies.

>>58381134
according to this map, the high arctic and antarctic looks like the best place for solar

>>58384023
>The real thing we're doing right now is developing the tech and the materials to keep the containment vessel and related components from being destroyed during normal operation.
That's where the tokamak design is a disadvantage, because it requires pulsed operation. Most materials do better when taking constant load. Or did they find a way do do constant operation with tokamaks?

>>58384164
Fairly sure ITER does long pulses of 400-600s.

>>58380241
The waste is a funny one, nuclear waste is some of the most dense shit possible, even though it says 1 ton of waste, its actually heavier than lead.

would honestly rather see one nuclear power plant then have my fucking house surrounded by goddamn windmills and they remove the beautiful forest to put those ugly fucking things in.

>>58379666
That's not my impression, like with many things it seems that most people I talk to here in the EU are totally fine with nuclear. The politicians have forbidden building new plants in this country and they refuse to even debate it. There is no local pro-nuclear party that I am aware of, it's just forbidden and it's impossible to actually vote for it.

China is building a lot of nuclear plants and perhaps the US will too when Trump finally gets into office.

>>58384121
Not during the 4 month winter

>>58379547
because they work better

>>58384203
7-X is aiming for 30 minutes (they did pretty well hitting their goals so far), even that would be a 10:1 advantage for load changes. Afaik, production stellarator should be able to run for weeks straight if the design scales right.

But otoh, i'm heavily biased, because when i construct stuff, it's usually just plain steel, concrete and/or wood. Dynamic loads haunt you at night when you do that kind of work, probably more than anything else.

Nuclear is the best energy source you dumb fucks.

>>58379547
nuclear power is best

Source. Sounds suspicious.

>>58379547
because without oil industry there will be no plastics

>>58381589
Once we have space elevators it should be possible to move the waste to space and store it on the Moon

>>58384606
There are bioplastics dude. Monomers derived from biological material.

>>58385118
not as good quality-wise as real plastic

Things are a bit different when you aren't independently wealthy enough to be deebly goncerned. Gas is cheap. Used gas power cars are cheap.

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>>58383120
That meme's been false since the 1960s

>>58385135
yeah because i'm deeply concerned about the quality of my soda bottles

>>58386118
>this graph with no context and no legend, totally proves my point bruh
um, ok. not even that guy, but your picture means nothing

>>58386191
>He can't use reverse image search
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

Is it true that burning coal produces more radioactive waste than nuclear power plants?

>>58379666
I'd be completely fine with nuclear if they used thorium based reactors already... Also that one kids nuclear waste reactor also seems baller. They should scale that shit up!

>>58379786
Solar is great and if you're against it you're obviously uninformed. Judging by the meme, you're uninformed. Fuck off.

>>58386379
>I'd be completely fine with nuclear if they used thorium based reactors already
That might be even further away than useful thermonuclear reactors

>>58386379
Thorium reactor designs already exist, but they havent been widespread built because nuclear reactors themselves havent been built.
One requires the other.

>>58384319
US has alot of debt it will take awhile before they can think about nuclear energy, hence the reason why Trump wants fossil for now = cheaper.
US infrastructure needs a rebuild that will take a lot of money maybe in 3 years.

>>58381302
>>during the day
>So build two of them.
Top kek I'm not sure who is for real anymore

>>58381589
>99,99% efficient
nigga are you pretending to be retarded? 60% is really high for a nuclear power plant, i believe 61,5% has been a record hit some time ago.

>>58379985
/g/ - technology board ladies and gentoomen

>>58379741
>all that wasted space for meme generating neets

>>58381100
They don't sell vaporizable water anymore you cunt

>>58379671
>Yeah, that space was really being put to great use before

Well obviously the land must be valuable for something because otherwise the government wouldn't have claimed it all for their exclusive use and throw people in prison for decades when they try to use it for their own purposes.

>>58380030
>solar panels can be deployed anywhere. they work everywhere.

No, they really don't.

>>58379741
Just look where the fuck it is. Nobody wants that space.

>>58379547
Hey, that's the helios one powerplant

>>58386723

You're stuck in the 1980s.

Ambient light can generate eletrcity. Even if the source of the photons is chemical. It makes no difference.

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>>58379681
>store energy in molten salt
But could I put it on my crinkle fires?

Serious question: after it cooled, would that salt be okay for consumption?

Name your alternative technology, and there's probably a problem with it. Hydro and Wind power will get some environmentalists bitching about how much they kill some fish or bird that no one cares about, nuclear power has a waste problem, and people don't want to dig holes in the desert to solve that problem. They also worry about meltdowns, but don't want to try new designs that have a lot less problems. Solar was fucking expensive for the longest time, but is at the very least getting cheaper, although it does have problems with variation in energy production depending on the season.

Fossil fuels are cheap and effective, and most importantly, the people who make money off of them have enough money to overemphasize the weaknesses of alternative energy sources in the ears of politicians that we're not going to be seeing many alternatives too soon.

Also, since we're talking about fossil fuels, I know someone's going to probably bring up their use in cars (or already has. This thread is 300 posts in and I haven't read any of it). Well, it's quite unfortunate, but we have difficulty storing electricity. Our best solution involves Lithium, which isn't exactly plentiful.

>>58386684
Just add warmth and it becomes vaporizable #lifehax

>>58379573
>no hazard waste
>low tech level required to operate
>no quarantine safe area
>requires very little water
>cheap maintenance

>>58379695
>If warming happens we basically just get worse summers, better winters, and the benefits of a longer growing season.

And millions of refugees from countries who aren't so lucky, with little if any redeeming education who'll throw your country into economic chaos.
Your country is not a bubble, the rest of the world affects you.

>>58379663
You think this planet will support us for more than another millenium? I've seen some delusion but man, you take the fucking cake

transportation biofuels are the way to go, at least for the next 40 to 50 years. For household power though, unless you live in a largely unpopulated country like Norway and can benefit from close to 100% renewal production you're pretty much SOL. Would like to see more nuclear plants. In my country nuclear makes up for 25% of the total energy production but coal is still the most popular source.

>>58386953
Not the NaCl kind of salt.

It's usually a mixture of sodium nitrate, potassium nitrate and calcium nitrate.

>>58387018
>Refugees flood into and destroy Europe
>Trump builds a coastal wall too
>Laughing Americans.jpg

>>58379923
Sure thing, (((Anonymous)))

>>58387008
Scalability.

You can easily build yourself a few kW solar panel in your own backyard. That will power a medium sized house pretty efficiently.

>>58379547
literally every bit of electricity sales will go to maintenance

>>58379681
>molten meme
yikes
i presume the same issues exist with this as with the molten salt reactors such as corrosion
why didnt they just build a molten salt reactor instead

>>58387109
>Molten hot shit
>Molten hot radioactive shit which is extra corrosive due to the HF the and also shits out neutrons everywhere

>>58387109

Just use compressed air storage, as an energy reserve.

>>58387052
But would it taste as good? (right before you died)

>>58387268
http://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/19631/do-all-salts-taste-salty

>>58387031
who cares? earth is gay and humans are a waste

>>58386925
What would the difference in power generation from solar panels be if you compare one in say england, versus one in texas? Just wondering.

>>58387081
The cheapest and "smartest" solar build IMO is using a Tesla like battery pack.

But:
- The pack costs quite some money.
- The panel/inverter also costs a ton, and it's wise to spend more on these, unless you want a housefire.

>>58388196
And my reply also disappeared.
What the fuck.

So in my country you would need to use this system solely for 2 years 24-7 to come even.

Then again, inverters break, things happen.
You also have to replace the battery from time to time, repair the system, and if you want to rely on electricity, you need to invest in an electric stove/heating, etc.

tl;dr: It would take roughly 10 years to come even. And it's a big investment.
Not sure if it's all worth the trouble.

Bonus: Here firefighters will not extinguish solar panel fires, because they have electricity in them and they can't turn that off. So you are double fucked.

>>58387944

Solar panels are plastered all over rooftops here in England. It doesn't matter if Taxus, or the Sahara desert, generates more power due to greater intensity of sunlight. The sun doesn't even need to shine to generate electricity. Daylight is enough.