When will technology kill the oil industry

>>58261563
When the Oil Industry stops having money. Which is probably never.

>>58261563
When the ((((old men)))) who own the oil operation have finished buying out all the alternative energy sources.

File: TeslaSolar.jpg (419KB, 2000x1073px) Image search: [Google]

419KB, 2000x1073px

Thanks to based Elon Musk, you will soon be able to harness solar energy from your roof tiles and it will look and feel good.

It will look good because they look just like regular house tiles, and it will feel good because your energy bill be smaller and you will be helping to save the planet.

>>58261563
when more efficient (30%) solar panels become really cheap... which is kinda difficult, at least until scientists find ways to build solar PV cells from cheap materials with such efficiency

>>58261678

I can already buy that here in Europe

When the oil runs out

>>58261563
When alternative energy sources become cheaper, which will take a while because it is far faster and economically efficient to get energy from burning fuel than it is from the sun or wind.
>>58262853
Contrary to popular belief, that won't happen any time soon.

when we complete the war on terror

>>58262818
How much does it cost?

I love gas engines as an enthusiast but I think the majority of our power needs to be renewable. Once gas gets a little more expensive I think we will see development again. Tesla has successfully made electric cars cool so there's that.

>>58263503
lol.

>>58261563

When the energy density of batteries reaches or surpasses that of oil. Or, until oil runs out, whichever occurs first. Battery tech is complex stuff, you can't have "boffins magicing it up with science" as progress in that area doesn't scale the same way computers and lithography do with a die shrink every once in awhile.

Worth noting here is that the more energy you pack in a small space, the more volatile things get. You can already see it happening with li-ion batteries compared to the previous generation of Ni-MH types. Large supercapacitors can be crazy-dangerous and explode anything fleshy that goes near their terminals.

>>58263374

€300 for 4 tiles

>>58263778
That's expensive, my local solar panel instalation company charges cheaper and with better support most likely

>>58261563
Hopefully soon.
brilliantlightpower.com

>>58261727
>muh efficiency
You certainly don't know enough to contribute anything worthwhile

when renewable power can power our needs for a similar cost... i am all for renewable energy sources, but it has to make sense economically. can we switch? sure, but do you want to go bankrupt to do it?

>>58261678
>you will soon be able to harness solar energy from your roof tiles
>200 days in year is winter
>160 out of 165 rest days are cloudy m, rainy or whatever
This doesn't work.

>>58264058
sucks to be you

>>58261563
Not in the Trump-Putin era. They will drill the arctic until the world melts.

>>58264149
But I like winter

any smart person will tell you that nuclear is the way to go.

>>58264058
>what is tesla powerwall
>was is a gas backup generator
I wasn't a huge fan of solar either, but I like this solution. I wish nuclear would get funding but it seems all the money got dumped into renewables and they are turning out better than expected.
Shame about euro fags who have no roof space and no land for solar farms.

>>58264208
>I wish nuclear would get funding
>implying it doesn't
>implying it doesn't get enough
>implying it is the fault of inadequate funding and not volatility of the investment

>>58264208
if you have to use gas then you're not really solving any problem, are you?

>>58264204

Yes

File: sjH5rh.jpg (99KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

99KB, 1024x768px

>>58264238
See pic related. Nuclear doesn't take up a ton of land like solar does, although having them on houses fixes this issue. The only issue is nuclear waste, although that wouldn't be a problem if we got nuclear fusion working.

>>58264239
You can only have 1 gas plant serving an area instead of a bunch, while solar does the heavy lifting.

>>58264239
You're optimizing the most common case, which is a common and good practice.

>all these tree hugging liberals

no wonder you're all poor. energy industries make big bucks and pay big bucks so fuck off.

>>58264303
>fusion
A meme
"Nuclear" means fission
Fission is often a good idea, but it is giant investment that may not pay off. It does get funding, but it doesn't stop it from being a risky investment.
Fusion is a holy grail and more of a meme than anything else and anyone saying anything like
>we should just rush fusion and be set for life
is at best childishly naive.

>>58264332
not an argument

(((they))) found this thread pretty quick

the oil lobby is well funded indeed

>>58264361

i know, it's hard to argue with facts isn't it?

>>58264368
Malevolence, stupidity etc.

Many retards genuinely believe coal+oil is the way to go.
Many of those are fine with talking about things they have no idea about.

>>58264368
/pol/ has a discord where they look for threads on other boards and collectively spam them
Can't wait until they get btfo by gookmoot

>>58264352
Nuclear currently means fission because it's all we have, but it can also refer to fusion. You can't call fission a risky invention, despite obvious evidence it works. Solar is the real risky investment; the efficiency is trash, and it's only gotten better recently because of research and funding.
But we should fund it more than now, although it is an even more risky investment. A couple billion dollars a year is peanuts to the U.S. government, and fusion is a very promising technology. It's only a meme because governments refuse to give it any money. ITER isn't late to start deuterium-tritium fusion until almost 2030. That's pretty sad.

>>58261678
>helping to save the planet
>wasting money on solar
No. Anon you really have a more realistic view on the issue.
First:
You're not saving or hurting the planet. You're making an investment to prevent large scale societal repairs in the future. The people who will be hit the hardest are the poorest. So the developing nations, China and the US are gonna have major catastrophe. Russia I don't know. They're not as spread and climate change may even be an opportunity for them. I doubt they come out positive. That'd be extreme.
Second:
Sustainable energy is far from mature. You're not supposed to invest into the infrastructure you're supposed to invest into research while going for more safe-cheap nuclear. We don't have the storage capacity to have wind/solar/wave energy be a feasible solution without MAJOR current peak cuts. If we could have decent batteries and 'charge' our houses so the entire grid doesn't fail when we put on the kettle that'd be great. Let's at least get there first.
Look to Sweden or France if you want a good look at a proper scattershot approach to power. A backbone of nuclear in both cases. In Swedens case they have a significant portion of hydro power. But it's not enough for them to go away from nuclear entirely. They're in a position (like most western countries) where them changing energy production is detrimental and a very poor investment.

If they shifted their efforts into wind and solar and just put it into research they'd be golden. They could do serious work then and could probably get out ahead in the economic game.

You lazy people who care just enough to make destructive statements on sustainable energy are the worst. You're why we haven't fixed this shit yet. I'm confident we could have clear plans in place to solve this shit right now if you weren't retarded like Germany when they voted to go off nuclear. They're gonna fail horribly and the result will either be importing nuclear energy or coal.
It's shit.

>>58264532
Also. Since you're clearly a lazy person.
Here's an inspiring Ted talk from Bill gates in 2010.
https://youtu.be/JaF-fq2Zn7I
Share it among your friends you stupid hippie.
I'm ashamed to share this planet with you.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=LUvPTJ6-RWo

Almost like energy is harder to acquire than cheap plastic

When people stop being so god damned scared of nuclear power.

>>58264519
>You can't call fission a risky invention
I can
Read up on why isn't everyone going nuclear despite the seeming advantages.
tl;dr version: Because it's too risky to fund a giant plant that will take decades to pay off

>Solar is the real risky investment; the efficiency is trash
In many places it approaches grid parity. In some rare ones, exceeds it.
I hope you mean "efficiency" as in "W/$", not "% of light converted to electricity", because the latter would mean you don't know anything about the subject and need to read up on economy and not memes.

>It's only a meme because governments refuse to give it any money.
No proof of that anywhere. The cold facts are that we don't have economically viable fusion or any proven projections.
Anything more optimistic is just that: optimism.

>>58261563
When government no longer does the bidding of the oil industry.

This is just a testament to the great pumpjack design to not need replacement desu senpai

>>58264619
>% solar
Well its the % solar per dollar obviously. Making a blanket statement that someone who considers a specific cells energy light to electrical energy ratio too low is stupid is ridiculous.

It's more constructive to argue about the watt/dollar in certain circles though.

Also how can you consider him talking about the solar% when he's literally talking about an investment? Clearly he's talking watt/dollar.

File: FinlandNuclear_GermanPV_Lifetime_Cost-per-kWh.jpg (22KB, 432x301px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 432x301px

>>58264619
I did mean watt/$. Although I guess my statement also applies to conversion efficiency.
Nuclear does have a big up front cost, but the plants last a long time. They also cost money to decommission, but this is frequently factored into the operating costs, so it doesn't turn into another big expense.
Nuclear also faces a lot of opposition from environmentalists, and normal people don't care for them either.

However I believe nuclear offers a good balance of environment and economy. Sure waste is an issue, especially in the U.S. because the 10 people who live in northern Nevada didn't want it in yucca mountains. Coal is still cheaper for kWh/$, but is obviously shit for the environment. Also solar isn't as viable in Europe, because of the land shortage and less direct sunlight. It seems France has the smartest idea about energy. While Germany toys around with renewables, France has a solid backbone of nuclear and then does stuff on top of that.

We don't know for sure fusion works, but it is a great goal to work at.

- When other sources of energy become cheaper
- When other sources of energy become easier to implement
- When oil companies finally find the kindness in their hearts to stop lobbying the hell out of everything they can see

so basically, never.

>>58261563
When Islam dies.

>>58261678
that meme is decades old, he didnt make it and he isnt the first one to put solar panels on roofs.

File: 1473909180731.jpg (10KB, 181x274px) Image search: [Google]

10KB, 181x274px

What about being less selfish and using less wattage? Why is curbing greed never on anyone's mind..

Also, how much wattage would we save if every /b/tard and /g/ent had a girlfriend and didn't porn?

>>58268538
You'd actually get a lot more watts used since instead of the porn there would be lots of laundry.
That and women use more electricity than men

>>58263746
ceramic l-ion batteries

when you can post about flouride thorium salt reactors and not get instantly attacked by 5 different posters on anonymous message boards.

File: bike_washing_machine_thumb.jpg (74KB, 604x818px) Image search: [Google]

74KB, 604x818px

>>58268560
And, you excersise your beautiful quadriceps for even better sex next time.

Rinse and repeat.

>posting Apple products in the OP
>based Elon Musk
OP is a faggot.

File: how-lftr-uses-thorium-fullsize.png (181KB, 879x653px) Image search: [Google]

181KB, 879x653px

>>58261563
Never

>>58266500
so when is it ?
>implying

go nuclear or go poor.

I do think wind turbines look really cool.

>>58261605
this

>>58268627
they're an eyesore

>>58261563
When we finally get of our asses and make an efficient fusion plant. Seriously you'd think that more people would invest but the global fusion budget is only about 1 billion.

>>58264058
Then stop living in finland

>>58264208
You can see solar panels on 10% eurofag roofs. A lot of their electrical engineering colleges actually have solar panels.

The Netherlands will save the world.

http://www.shell.com/media/news-and-media-releases/2015/shell-to-install-nationwide-network-hydrogen-vehicle-fuelling-pumps-germany.html

>>58264619
For a government, that is not a particularly risky investment, since they work on timelines that stretches decades already. That's how they plan schools, infrastructure, zoning laws, and so on already.

Unless of course, you politicise your government so that every pleb thinks that their opinion is needed and/or wanted. That's when shit goes to hell.

There's a reason the Chinese are building shit, and we aren't. Because we're utterly hamstrung by democracy and thus keep voting to sniff our own farts instead of doing anything.

When we do choose what projects we invest in, the cost of making a choice is incredibly high because society now starts IRL shitposting for months about what's best, and the thing with the best ad-campaign tends to win.

I really think that communism would work better than this shit some times.

>>58268581

Is that a thing that exists?

>>58261563
>reddit

>>58261563

when all the oil is gone

>>58264444
>SJWs
>shill for shitty developers or """artists"""
>/pol/
>shill for big industries
When did it become cool to be a corporate dicksucker? The fuck do any of them get out of this?

>>58268538
>use less wattage
>stop being selfish
No real connection there.
See >>58264532
This kind of 'feel good' environmentalism is the worst.

It's like trying to cure heart disease with voodoo.

>>58268538
Because curbing greed always somehow translates into rich assholes flying to the middle of the desert, where they will have comfortable air conditioning and carefully misted sand pathways to ensure no one's shoes gets dirty, just to draft laws to make it more difficult for poor people to stay warm in the winter.

I'm fine with whatever is cost effective and efficient provided government stays out of energy. I'd likely hedge my bet that nuclear and oil/gas are obscenely better and are curbed through the centrally planned government. The whole green or renewable fad seems forced. Nothing but redistribution of resources that are better spent in actual profitable areas.

>>58264608
>NIMBYism
>Fear of radiation/atomz!

Yes nuclear has a troublesome past, but hating wind power is just fucking absurd
>NIMBYism
>They kill birds!
>muh countryside aesthetic
>But they need rare materials to build!

>>58264444
It wont be gookmoot but Dear Leader Trump who fucks them over by removing net neutrality. This site will disappear and they will have no where to go.

>>58269355
But what about long-term effects on environment and climate?

Are you saying there aren't one, or that they aren't a problem?

>>58269429
There is a negative to any and all means to produce energy. They all have disastrous effects on the environment. Some more than others. Wind/Solar are extremely harmful to the environment and haven't been worth it in comparison to oil and gas. When you weigh the pros and cons all the wishful thinking just ends up burning a hole in your pocket. Provided of course there is no subsidy/taxpayer gravy train or stifling legislation.

>>58269496
Incorrect.

Fossil fuel energy had massive negative impact on the environment. Hydro, Wind, Sun and nuclear are all much more eco-friendly in the long run.

If the money needed to "reverse" the negative effects of each energy source, the price of fossil fuel energy would go up by at least order of magnitude, while other would barely change. Especially nuclear, which is almost pure.

>>58264976
All of the radioactive waste in the world could fit in a small warehouse, sealed and buried

>>58269171
>SJWs
>shill for shitty developers or """artists"""
I've actually noticed that but also that leftists shill for multi national corps and big business. It's sort of glaring when you aren't in the self imposed echo chamber of leftist groupthink. It's like a default setting where if you don't have an opinion you just go left since it's the safe choice and requires no thought. Osmosis of a sort to a degree.

>>58269517
It's not incorrect. Fossil Fuels are a superior source of energy massively outweighing the negatives. Wind and Solar are not eco friendly and aren't better in the long run as things stand currently or near future. Resources are finite.

File: deaths.jpg (112KB, 1560x1230px) Image search: [Google]

112KB, 1560x1230px

>>58269559
No. Simply no.
You should study the subject more before you make any such claims.

>>58269575
>You should study the subject more before you make any such claims.
Exactly. If you actually looked at things objectively you would notice even Coal is more energy efficient despite the added burden of making it "cleaner". It still outproduces by quite a large margin and is still cheaper.

It was also noted you neglected the impact of Hydro on the climate and environment. Suppose it's fine just destroying a whole area as long as you don't live there.

>>58269575
why is wind and solar left out of these?
Someone must have fallen out of a wind mill.

>>58269609
Saying coal is more efficient is like saying borrowing money is more efficient way to get money than working.

>It was also noted you neglected the impact of Hydro on the climate and environment.
I'm not saying that all other have no impact. But that impact can be controlled and isolated. Dams are built in places where effect will be minimal. Nuclear might produce extremely dangerous waste, but that waste can be stored properly outside the ecosystem. Coal and gas on the other had poisons the WHOLE ecosystem so you cannot just isolate that one effect.

>>58269542
That's what I mean, except the big businesses are studios and shit like Sony Pictures. Look at how many fucking retards lined up to defend Ghostbusters 2016 despite being a fucking obvious cashgrab.

>>58261563
>When will technology kill the oil industry
When will politics kill the oil industry*

>>58269619
In the UK, 14.2GW is generated from wind energy.
In 2010-2015 an average of 160 people have died in wind turbine accidents per year.
That would mean 0.09 deaths per GW, a factor of 500 less than nuclear related deaths.

>>58263503
Guess what electricity is made from.

>>58269658
>I'm not saying that all other have no impact. But that impact can be controlled and isolated. Dams are built in places where effect will be minimal
Hydro leads to methane release.

>>58269791
How much of it? How much compared to coal/gas CO2 or animal husbandry?

>>58261678
{cum noises} Going to be so nice when across the board in America there is no electricity bills as it is a natural surface of the house when renting.

>>58269707
When Mr Fusion become comercially viable

>>58261563
It's really simple.

Chemistry and similar fields cannot attract the smartest people like CS, CE and math can.

Advanced AI built by CS, CE and math will solve this problem.

>>58269922
Double doubles of TRUTH.

>>58268611
this.

It's sad that the only reason it can't be implemented is because you can't build nukes with the reactor waste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzupfyrWiew

what is (((this))) meme

>>58269113
In US, it's a private investment. Government helps some, but in the end it's up to the investor to get it up and running.
And investors don't want to spend gigashekels just to find out that the market changed and they will not get it all back.

There are multiple ways government helps nuclear investments to pay off:
>guaranteed minimum electricity price, subsidy if the real price drops below that
>carbon tax, which flushes out polluters and increases prices
>favorable loans
etc.
It's just that it still ends up being a giant investment that takes decades to start paying off. And "people" with money can get better returns by swindling and lobbying than by investing long-term.

>I really think that communism would work better than this shit some times.
It could, but that depends on who would rule.
Communism with Trump's people would just turn into
>it's the best for common good to burn literally only coal and oil
>solar, wind and nuclear is now illegal, except for military and electronics operating in space. they are too polluting and dangerous!

>>58261563
Your battery is still lithium shit, despite people complaining about that all the time. Some fields are just very hard to improve. Besides, oil is not just energy.

>>58261678
I can't believe how many retards ITT fell for this bait post.

>>58261678
>making a meme out of your entire house

>>58270444
You are a fucking idiot.

>>58270491
That's rich coming from someone who believed in a master swindler whose cabinet consists of ExonMobil drones, climate denialists, bankruptcy vultures and idiots

>>58261563

Not for the next four years, you just elected a retrograde technological-illiterate who is ideologically and economically committed to furthering outdated power sources like fossil fuels and coal and who appointed an actual oil dealer to SoS.

I don't think people realize just how deep the use of fossil fuels really runs, and how much effort and money is going to be needed to actually make a widespread shift to alternative energy sources.
For a multitude of reasons
>make the gubment force it to happen!
Is completely unrealistic, especially in the us where the best we've been able to actually get to pass all the levels of legislature are tax breaks for meeting a certain minimum improvement or coming in below par in emissions and outlawing supremely deadly chemicals and practices like asbestos and leaded fuel (both of which still see use in special cases)
And no company gives enough of a shit to make massive investments for the good of mankind, as investing in the wrong technology too soon could bankrupt them completely.
And these governemnt fund initiatives are even worse. Just look at that solar roadways shit. The state of Idaho gave those scam artists millions of dollars in taxpayer money, and the fruits of their labor are that 1. They came across the groundbreaking discovery that solar panels work better when aimed at the sun as opposed to just laying flat and 2. They installed some panels in a low traffic pedestrian walking area where the panels don't even produce enough power for their stupid led lightshow. Oh and of course over half didnt work to begin with.

The progression towards alternative energy is going to be a slow and painful one. Especially since there is no one alternative energy to rule them all (inb4 nuclear fags jump on me. No matter how feasible or retarded a nuclear powered car may be, even if we used nuclear to generate the electricity for cars, we run into the same issues we have and will have for some time; current batteries arent good enough), yet fossil fuels have tons of applications and have become vital to just about every industry in some way.

>>58264204
Except for getting rid of the waste

Nuclear power already has that potential, but there is no political-corporatist will.

>>58270852
Not a problem with fast neutron reactors. Russia just finished one.

>computers are made of plastic
>plastic is made of petroleum
hmm..

>>58270852
Waste isn't that much of a big deal.
Even with waste, it is much cleaner than fossils.

>>58270784
>And these governemnt fund initiatives are even worse. Just look at that solar roadways shit.
One bad apple doesn't mean it's a bad thing.
Solar has been experiencing an exponential price drop for a while. It was the power equivalent of Moore's Law.
If this trend keeps up - and there is no sign of it stopping - it will start phasing out fossils soon.

Renewables have one big advantage over nuclear that is often ignored: they are better at small scale. You don't need a giant farm of solars, you need a big investment just to start a nuclear plant.

File: New-Energy-Solar-Thermal-Collector.jpg (290KB, 790x790px) Image search: [Google]

290KB, 790x790px

Solar thermal collectors are getting far too little attention. They're much cheaper than photovoltaics and very efficient at heating water.
The water in my house reaches 90 deg C on normal summer days, easily 30 deg C in the winter. I only need very little oil.

>>58269070
>You can see solar panels on 10% eurofag roofs
I estimate it's more.

>>58270889
>plastic is made of petroleum
You can make plastic from plant-derived alcohol.

>>58270870
Nuclear has too tainted of a public view, at least in the states. Just uttering the word immediately brings to mind the bombing of hiroshima, the nuclear fallout from the nevada test sites and its coverup, chernobyl, and the disaster they had in Japan a few years ago that polluted the waters surrounding the plant so much you couldn't even buy fish caught from around there.

In the case of the bombs, obviously that's something else entirely and anything can be turned into a killing machine, chernobyl was due to gross negligence, the kind that wouldn't even be possible in developed countries, and the japan ordeal was not as bad as the media made it out to be. And of course, oil spills which happen all the fucking time are way, way, waaaaaay worse, but it's been enstilled in the mind of the general public. The scariest part about nuclear radiation is that you can't see or feel it immediately in small doses. But chronic exposure can lead to some terrifying illnesses and flipper babies. Again, not an actual issue with modern plants, but that's the public image.

>>58270963
Normalfags ruin everything again.

>>58270963
the worst part is the military has fucking nuclear boats and nobody seems bothered but god help you if you think we should update our plants

>>58270963
Indeed, its too risky and financially unbeneficial for politicians. If only all the fucking cash invested in oil drilling, soil research and offshore wind turbines was spent on 99% save nuclear reactors research.

>>58269372
Wind is literally the worst of all energy sources when it comes to cost per kWh. The only reason it exists is because subsidies and unlike solar, there's no room to improve the effectiveness.

>>58271080
>what is onshore wind
>what is decreasing cost of production maintenance

>>58271080
Not mention each turbine has, like, a kilo of niobium in its magnets. It's outright impossible to use wind as a major power source while it remains that way.

>>58261563
I bet there are like 8 ways to replace oil as energy but we probably will never see them reach fruition until all the oil runs out.

Any promising tech is bought out by those in the oil industry. Everyone has a price.

The only way we will see an alternative to oil, is for someone with influence, money and resources to just hate the oil industry THAT much to get something out to market that will basically make oil go the way of the dodo.

>>58270892
I'm well aware that there are companies genuinely interested in furthering development of alternative energy (renewable is such a loaded bullshit term. Look into the manufacturing associated with solar panels, batteries, wind turbine generators, etc and current methods of disposal which include burying it in the desert or dumping it in a foreign 3rd world country where the consensus is "well I'm not the one swimming in a lake of acid garbage so it ain't my problem" and not much else. Nevermind the fact it was a term coined by ethanol companies cause durr corn's renewable it doesnt matter how shitty is on engine components and the fact that you can't use the same soil forever) and not everyone and everything is solar roadways tier.
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make; my point is how badly the government is mishandling everything. We have the two party system to thank for that since those fucking idiots are more concerned with not letting "the other guys" have their way instead of actually doing their fucking jobs. Both parties, btw.
There's more to it than that obviously, but my point was just that there's no way the government will ever really force these changes and people need to stop claiming they should since clearly they don't have even a modest understanding of what needs to be done.

I agree solar has made leaps and bounds in the past decade or two, but it's far from universally viable. Best case scenario is using tracking panels to limit efficiency losses with sun angle in areas with little overcast throughout the year. But not everywhere is california, and in reality town population most of the rest of the US, efficiency losses from obscured panels means it is not one size fits all.
That's the biggest limiting factor as of now. Fossil fuels can be used in countless ways and is cheap. Alternatives are specialized and costly. Dont even get me started on electric vehicles.

>>58271179
>Dont even get me started on electric vehicles.
They work well in smaller countries.
USA has a big problem with the cancerous car culture, giant suburbs and lack of public communication. It feeds into oil lobby and oil lobby feeds into car culture.

Over 20% of new cars sold in Norway are classified as electric.

When you get over the low ranges and increased weight, electric vehicles are cheap to use, clean, silent and comfortable compared to fossil fuel vehicles.

File: itaipue400.jpg (31KB, 420x300px) Image search: [Google]

31KB, 420x300px

>>58271251
Reminder that many third-world countries were actually using electric vehicles very successfully in the late 70's/early 80's, and they only stopped because the oil lobby quashed it.

>>58271128
Nice joke with the dodo's there. Very dry I love it.
But stop with the tinfoil hat tier thinking. The oil industry doesn't have to buy anyone and everyone fucking hates the oil industry. No one really likes putting money in the pockets of towel head sand niggers that literally have a city dedicated to showing off how retardedly filthy fucking rich they all are.
It's just that we really don't have a choice. Petroleum is used in everything, not just energy production. And we have used it and continue to use it because it's so fucking good at so many things and relatively cheap compared to alternatives.
Just about every country out there has been built up with the use of fossil fuels and the many uses of petroleum and with further use in mind from the beginning.
It's not easy to convert everything to an alternative, even sowly, and impossible to do it abruptly. Worse yet is there is no one solution which further complicates things and builds even taller barriers which are essentially made of giant stacks of cold hard greenbacks.

And we still don't have a viable alternative to petrol and diesel fuels. The best we've got are those hybrids with combustion generators to feed the batteries as they need them. Battery technology is far too shitty at the moment for full on electric vehicles to take commonplace anytime soon.
>but you can just limit your commuting to stay within the range
Nearly no fully electric car gets their advertised range and suffer parasitic losses just from sitting in a parking lot for extended periods of time. Think of how often you end up spending twice as long in traffic as expected when running errands or how often you have to dart around town because you forgot about something you had to do or didn't carefully plan your route.
The range limitations are a massive inconvenience for electric vehicles.
And quick charge stations shorten battery life, and LiPo's aren't exactly renouned for longevity to begin with.

>>58261563
when you will be able to produce fully synthetic gasoline as a energy storge medium

>>58271251
Fully electric or electric as in it has electric motors powering the wheels?
Hybrids with combustion generators onboard are an excellent option at this very moment for commuters in just about any setting. Massive efficiency gains, significantly reduced emissions from an engine that stays in a certain load range, and no real fear of range limitations since you've still got gasoline/diesel as an option. I think the term is plug in hybrid or something but I can't be bothered to check myself on that.

But until we improve batteries by exponential ammounts, fully electric will never replace combustion engines completely. Which is something almost every alternative energy source banks on. Keep in mind electric still isn't a realistic atlernative for airplanes, cargo ships, semi trailers, etc where they need massive amounts of power and reducing unnecessary weight is of incredible importance.
>inb4 muh roof mounted solar panels and muh hydrogen fuel cells
Both nowhere near viable with current technology nor in any way cost effective.

I honestly think none of us will live to see the fall of fossil fuels unless it actually runs completely out in our lifetimes. Even really expensive sources like the filthy rocky shit under alaska and canada are cheaper all said and done than adopting alternative sources en mass.
I reall want to see the shift occur, and quickly, but there are just so many pieces at play that we can't just stick solar panels on everything and tell the oil companies to fo fuck their hats.

>>58261678
And unless you live in Death Valley it will only take 20 years to amortize the initial cost.

>>58261563
This image is so retarded.

File: Prelude FLNG.jpg (96KB, 800x449px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 800x449px

>>58261563
Because pic related was totally feasible in the 1960s

>>58271716
Step away from the theoretical impossibilities for a minute, walk into the realm of practical reality and realize that your system has flaws, whether you like it or not. If you keep denying them, you're just being unscientific. You're being ideological. Once a theoretical hypothesis undergoes real-world scrutiny, not accepting the facts is irrational.

>>58264058

works in winter.
works when cloudy.

In norway the ill have about the same power generated as someone in close to the equator because we have overall more daylight.

>>58264303
New reactor designs can recycle waste. Nuclears problem is that in the US the common people are completely malleable to those with money, meaning the fossil fuel interests scarred the people and magnified the "dangers" to the public and now we're stuck with 50+ year old reactor technology.

>>58261678
No thanks, in Finland that roof will be covered in snow most of the time.

>>58271510
>I honestly think none of us will live to see the fall of fossil fuels unless it actually runs completely out in our lifetimes. Even really expensive sources like the filthy rocky shit under alaska and canada are cheaper all said and done than adopting alternative sources en mass.
If extraction becomes very expensive, there may be a shift towards bio-oil, which has almost all the advantages of fossil, except price and some of the purity (can still get purity with filtering, but that costs extra).
Bio-oil is getting cheaper, though not as fast as solar.

>>58267892
>that meme is decades old, he didnt make it and he isnt the first one to put solar panels on roofs.

What Musk did do is get the costs down enough for mass adoption.
>power companies hate him

>>58272023
>zero negative effects
Except for deteriorting a masculine culture (Cultural Marxism)

>open borders
The biggest proponents of open borders are (((Liberals))), and yes if you look at the heards of these corporations you'll find that a majority of them are Jewish. Just like how Jews make up about 50% of the world's richest 100 people, yet only being .2% of the world's population. But let me guess "It's just a coincidence that Jews are so rich and (((liberal))))!"

>>58272059
Common US Jews ARE the subversive Jews. If you want non-subversive Jews, look no further than nationalistic Israelis.

>>58263804
>being poor
Eat less, save more

>>58272084
ebib

>>58264058
Zip code

>>58272084
>deteriorting a masculine culture
Abstract bullshit with no actual arguments for it.
The only "reasons" for why gay marriage would do any damage to masculine culture is that a bunch of retards are so afraid of gays that they won't have male friends in fear of having gay friends, and because many of them tryhard into attempts to prove their masculinity and try to remove any gay men from their tryhard hobbies.

In countries with less tryharding and religious retardation, gay men are more masculine than average.

>Just like how Jews make up about 50% of the world's richest 100 people, yet only being .2% of the world's population.
>the richest happen to be jews
>the richest support open borders
>therefore it's subversive jews who want to destroy whiteness!
Nah, it's just business. All the rich people would gladly destroy the whole world for some extra profit. It's not a jew thing, it's a mental jew thing.

>>58272160
>gay men are more masculine than average
That's a new one.

>>58272092
>If you want non-subversive Jews, look no further than nationalistic Israelis.
>Israelis
>who have pride parades in their country
>non-subversive jews like something that /pol/tards see as le jew boogieman
I guess your worldview doesn't add up

>>58272180
Israelis actually actively work against that sort of thing, have strong borders, and a strong sense of national identity. It still happens, but it isn't encouraged like in the US.

>>58272180
Nationalistic Israelis aren't the same ones having pride parades you dumb fuck. Nationalistic Israelies would be that one Jew who started stabbing the people who were having the pride parade because it was against the Jewish religion.

>>58272200
>Israelis actually actively work against that sort of thing
Except they don't, because they have and love their own pride parades.
>have strong borders, and a strong sense of national identity
Which is in no conflict with gay parades in any country that isn't retarded.

>>58272224
See >>58272211 retard.

>>58272224
>multiple stabbing incidents in pride parade and a government that tries to work against it
>lol dey love dem!

You are delusional.

t. Israeli

>>58272250
>muslim-infested place has anti-gay attacks
>it must be our native retards doing the common muslim bullshit!

>>58272260
Just stop. It's embarrassing.

File: 1422080674891.png (50KB, 700x566px) Image search: [Google]

50KB, 700x566px

>energy thread
>suddenly shills join
>suddenly subversive subhumans claim everything left of hitler is marxist meme school
/pol/ is just a boogieman they said

>>58272160
I don't think you understand the importance of marriage. It should be viewed as natural, inevitable and desirable for everybody to marry a partner, have children and raise them to be productive members of society. If this institution breaks down, civilisation breaks down. Gay marriage mocks the very foundation of marriage, embracing hedonism over the duty of raising the next generation. It's both a symptom and a cause of why native borth rates are collapsing all over the Western world.

>>58272303
>Gay marriage mocks the very foundation of marriage
Fucking retard

>>58272285
It's not /pol/. This line of thinking is as legitimate as any other nowadays and only grows more common as people get fed up with the direction we're going in. Claiming any views that don't align with your own as a minority consigned to a specific board is just another subversive tactic.

>>58264532
you are the reason that the Earth is dying and you should kill yourself

>>58272316
This is the exact kind of stormtard bullshit that /pol/ spews.
Even if they don't go to /pol/, it's like saying that being an edgy atheist who literally wears a trenchcoat and debates old grannies is not fedora, just because he doesn't actually wear a fedora (but a trillby).

>>58272343
>huuuuuuurrrrrrrrr

>>58272285
>subhumans
fuck off nazi

>>58261678
Do they resist weather, though?

>>58272358
>didn't mention anything race-related
>only met with buzzwords and insults
Case and point. You're worse than the people you're picking a fight with.

>>58272360
the problem is here right now and "research" won't help it, immediate infrastructural changes will

File: 1480617978911.jpg (84KB, 599x392px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 599x392px

>>58272388
>push back retarded shit
>you're worse than retards because you don't sit and let them corrupt the place with their retardation
Yeah, the only way to fix the problem is to ignore it!
Sure worked for anyone!

>>58261563
When it stops taking 30 years of solar power to have a return on your investment

And don't even mention wind power to me.

>>58272436
>When it stops taking 30 years of solar power to have a return on your investment
It's this fucking myopic short term thinking that got us where we are now.

>>58272363
Fuck off commie. Back to your free software shit with your lolis fucking pedo.

>>58272423
>they're retarded because they don't agree with my worldview
You're just as annoying as either camp. Get over yourself.

>>58272498
>You're just as annoying as either camp
See the pic in >>58272423

>>58272484
Got is where? You mean with probably 5+ computers with every single household in the nation. Or did you mean the highest life expectancy world wide out of any single moment in history.

Be realistic, the exact moment solar power becomes actually affordable and produces much more electricity per panel, every single energy company in the nation would switch. Otherwise you can fuck off with your tree hugging bullshit.

>>58272608
>Be realistic, the exact moment solar power becomes actually affordable and produces much more electricity per panel, every single energy company in the nation would switch.
Until then, we should destroy the environment and poison each other with capitalism, right?

Oh and also think only in short term and use technologies that do not advance much, instead focusing on market manipulation and lobbying to gain extra cash.

>>58272629
>Until then, we should destroy the environment and poison each other with capitalism, right?
I would hardly consider not starving bad
>Oh and also think only in short term and use technologies that do not advance much, instead focusing on market manipulation and lobbying to gain extra cash.
Market manipulation and lobbying is by definition not capitalism. Capitalism implies free market, market manipulation is by definition not free. Lobbyism is derived from our governing style which allows individuals to speak about issues to the government. There can can lobbying in a communist dictatorship and there can be no lobbying in a government-less capitalist society

>>58272608
Those advancements came at a cost, one that is becoming unbearable as time passes. There are of course alternatives but they come at a cost which companies are not exactly interested in supporting. This problem was identified in the late 60s/early 70s, but here we are, still arguing about the cost effectiveness of sustainable practices.

We obviously can't just stop using fossil fuels right this moment, they need to be part of the energy mix in which renewable energy plays an increasing role. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try because it hurts the profit margin of a handful of corporations.

>>58272758
>government-less capitalist society
>real capitalism was never tried

File: Warning old men.png (3KB, 140x141px) Image search: [Google]

3KB, 140x141px

>>58261606
OLD MEN...running the world.

>>58264058
Except yes it does. Temperature and actual weather don't matter. If you can FUCKING SEE, you can harness solar power. Even if they're covered in 6 inches of snow, light goes through snow. You'd know this if you had a childhood.

>>58272608
>Be realistic, the exact moment solar power becomes actually affordable and produces much more electricity per panel,

That was two weeks ago.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-15/world-energy-hits-a-turning-point-solar-that-s-cheaper-than-wind

File: 1457302976028.jpg (237KB, 598x792px) Image search: [Google]

237KB, 598x792px

>>58272772
>There are of course alternatives
Right, they are mass killings in Africa, parts of China, the middle east, and all of South America.

>That doesn't mean we shouldn't try because it hurts the profit margin of a handful of corporations.
Developing new solar research that makes solar panels not suck won't hurt the margins of a handful of companies. You know, if they weren't smart enough to invest early on.

>>58272773
Anarchic Capitalism has never been tried

>>58272829
>solar became cheaper than another thing that also sucks
lols

I said to not even mention wind power to me. That shit sucks to begin with.
Since I can't upload two files.
https://conservativecritic.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/total-cost-electricity-production-per-kwh.jpg

>>58261678
Cant wait for this hack to go bankrupt

>>58272943
>mass killings in Africa, parts of China, the middle east, and all of South America
Perfect. Let's go with that one

File: elon-musk-mars-colonization-spacex-nasa-getty-shutterstock-business-insider-illustration-2x1.jpg (601KB, 2400x1200px) Image search: [Google]

601KB, 2400x1200px

>>58272955
Not before he builds his mansion on Mars. :)

>>58272943
>Right, they are mass killings in Africa, parts of China, the middle east, and all of South America.
Nice strawman.

>You know, if they weren't smart enough to invest early on.
Solar has become viable in a lot of countries. Is it an alternative for everyone with the current technology? Of course not, Sweden is not going to gain energy independence by investing in solar farms. Morocco on the other hand, is well on its way.

I'm seeing a lot of solar projects getting started up now, mostly Asia but some in ME too. Abu Dhabi's massive farm will be growing two-fold at least this year.
Only bottleneck currently is China's throughput of panel. Not sure if they'll have any significant bump until April/May.

>>58272987
>Nice strawman.
That's not a strawman. That's my beliefs.

Less people, less electricity used.

>Solar has become viable in a lot of countries
It's only "viable" because of government subsidies. That doesn't mean the government isn't wasting their money. And that certainly doesn't mean that the cost per kilowatt "magically" decreased.

>>58272943
>Developing new solar research that makes solar panels not suck won't hurt the margins of a handful of companies.
Typical libertard idealist
>solar sucks, don't invest in it
>don't invest it until it stops sucking
>it never stops sucking because no one invests
>better swindle the retards with fossils then
If it was up to your kind to run the countries, you'd be lucky to have a cow to help you plow the fields. Otherwise you'd have to do it by hand.

Solar is cheap enough now that it is actually profitable if done right. The problem isn't finding a spot with enough average sunlight per year. It is finding an area like that, that is close to the power grid. Running high voltage transmission lines cost about $1 million per mile and the power company or government won't pay or subsidize it.

>Source: work for solar investment group

>>58273043
>It's only "viable" because of government subsidies
And?

>And that certainly doesn't mean that the cost per kilowatt "magically" decreased.
It's decreased to the point where it's becoming a viable alternative to fossils in a lot of countries with high solar exposure. Even if it was the government's money, I wouldn't call it a waste, especially with rising oil prices.

>solar has gov't training wheels to help it start existing
>solar gets cheap
>negro countries start using solar
>solar no longer needs training wheels
>everyone benefits in the end
>everyone except (((big oil))) and (((big coal)))
Another victory of planned economy.

>>58273044
>Typical libertard idealist
I've been arguing against solar idiot

>solar sucks, don't invest in it
This is true
>don't invest it until it stops sucking
This is also true
>it never stops sucking because no one invests
Which is also possible
>better swindle the retards with fossils then
Better than using 10 times the money on solar

>>58273089
>And?
>It's decreased to the point where it's becoming a viable alternative

>pay $1000 a year out of taxes that go to solar
>able to buy solar panels for $100 dollars now
Explain how this logic makes sense to you

>>58273071
What's the latest on storing the energy? I like the idea of pushing water up a hill as the battery, hydro-electic dams are great for fast response scaling up power (from what I've read of UK and NZ)

>>58273123
>I've been arguing against solar idiot
You're so fucking dense it's not funny.
Obviously you are, like all libertard idealists.
You can't see that your meme ideology is just a meme, so you pretend any deviation from it will hurt anyone who isn't a part of a giant corporation.

>>58273123
>Better than using 10 times the money on solar
Until you can't do it anymore because either the environment is fucked beyond repair or there aren't any fossil fuels left. Sounds like a great plan anon.

>>58273123
>Explain how this logic makes sense to you
I'm not sure if you understand how government subsidies work. The idea isn't that it will receive funding forever, it's just a boost until technology becomes affordable for everyone.

Most people don't have an issue with this. Especially if in the future they can generate part of their own power needs, maybe even get paid some to feed unused power into the grid.

>>58273161
The ironic part is, most of the people that hold those ideals would probably be on the outside looking in.

>>58273213
>maybe even get paid some to feed unused power into the grid
How is that thing going?
I heard it has been attempted somewhere, (Bongistan?), caused some problems for the grid, but never heard about it afterwards.
Is it working? Is it working out?

>>58273256
It's being done in a few US states as well. Not sure about Bongistan.

File: 1470676223664.png (28KB, 508x400px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 508x400px

>>58273213
>Until you can't do it anymore because either the environment is fucked
Environment damage is a meme

>The idea isn't that it will receive funding forever
Explain how this matters
Solar power will always be more expensive than nuclear or fossil fuels.

>it's just a boost until technology becomes affordable for everyone
Affordable compared to what? Hint: this is also a meme

File: 1481818002836.jpg (185KB, 1698x1140px) Image search: [Google]

185KB, 1698x1140px

>gallium-arsenide photovoltaic cells aren't affordable

File: 1477103069842.png (500KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

500KB, 600x450px

>>58273303
>Solar power will always be more expensive than nuclear or fossil fuels.
That's a very long-term prediction for someone who can't even read the links in the thread he's posting in.

>>58273303
>Environment damage is a meme
You don't need to prove to me that you're the typical climate denying selfish randian prick. We've already established this.

It takes a very special kind of asshole to flat out dismiss all the accumulated scientific evidence on the damaging impact of oil derivatives on the air, water, and soil.

>Solar power will always be more expensive than nuclear or fossil fuels.
Except it in a lot of cases it isn't anymore.

>>58273367
>implying their wont be engineered solutions to human caused environment change

>>58261563
when trump kill all the lobbyist

>>58273387
>it's OK to overeat until you're morbidly obese - there is always liposuction

>>58273452
False analogy and oversimplification redditfag :^)

>>58263804
>US
>better support anything
>hello mr, tis is mike, I am calling from the US of A, how may I help you?
kek

>>58273468
False and baseless claims stormtard xD

>>58261727
>when more efficient (30%) solar panels become really cheap
why not when less efficient (<10%) panels become even cheaper?

>>58261563
It already has, in British Columbia (Where I live) over 90% of power produced is from hydroelectric dams.

>>58273303
>Solar power will always be more expensive than nuclear or fossil fuels.

this is not even remotely true
if you take into account disposal and enviromental cost alone you get a negativ balance

the support for saudi arabia alone produces lots of political implications and that is almost exclusivly based on oil

as for nuclear waste disposal nobody has a solution for it thats not a giant money drain (would you want to life near a nuclear waste dump? would you work at a place where they store end stage nuclear waste?`if not you know why its costly)

it takes a extremly limited scope to get a positiv outcome from fossil or Fission. then yes. but the moment you have to account for anything except getting energy its negativ. not paying doesnt mean you dont have cost

>>58269772
Last time I checked, my energy was made from thin air.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany

>>58263746
>energy density
this is only relevant for cars though.

>>58273558
Thank god your country doesn't have a province that relies on oil that funded pretty much everything the rest of the country wanted to do for years while oil prices were high and that province isn't right next to BC.

>>58264058
When you're outside during the day can you see more than 50 feet in front of you without an artificial light source?
If yes, solar panels will be collecting energy. If no, the sun has disappeared and we're all doomed.
I don't know where retards got the idea that you have to have direct sunlight to generate power.

The best part about solar is citizens can own the means of energy production. It is, in other words, a powerful vector for the democratization of electricity.

>>58272943
>half the price of coal

it's like you don't read things

>>58261563
When neoliberals allow the mainstreaming of fusion reactors.

>>58269791
>Hydro leads to methane release.
source on that? This sounds like something someone would pull out of his ass on the spot

>>58273670
>fusion
Even if spending on fusion research was increased massively, it's still a very long way off.

What's the point in investing in meme tech when the fusion is coming. Wendelstein is more perspective than ITER IMO.

>>58273700
Probably by the time we have sapient AI.

>>58273577
>germany has to import energy from (((france)))
RENEWABLE KEKS BTFO

>>58273717
>Murrica has to import oil from sand niggers, electricity from canada, and drinking water from mexico.
you're a boring shit

>>58271846

>Because I'm not a brainlet idiot.
Wait a second... so you capitalists keep claiming CEOs get paid more because they do a lot of work. But when we point out that if it weren't for workers' rights, you'd be slaving yourself, you go all like "lolno cuz I'm smart I wouldn't be a pawn!"

So which is it? Does management earn their stupidly high wages, or are their jobs cushy?

>Such as?
Such as workers' rights, you blithering idiot. Shit like severance, minimum wage, annual leave, maternity/paternity leave, health insurance, etc.

I mean, I knew you have to be ignorant to unironically defend capitalism, but you just keep giving away repeatedly that you are a spoiled brat who had everything handed out to you for free in a silver platter, who never had to work for anything and who doesn't even know history!

>I don't know what you're getting at?
Did you know feminism is a capitalist ruse to increase the workforce supply and reduce wages?

The more you know.

You should have just stayed in school.

>>58261678
That has been available for a long as time in Europe.

>>58272943
What a meaningless graph. Per KwH over what time period? The entire life of the thing? Coal plants have infinite life so that can't be the case. You make that yourself or did you find it on unsourcedarguments.com?

>>58261563
>oil pumps must get more advanced even though this is the simplest and easiest way to extract it from the ground

stop making shit more complicated!

>>58264058
You can collect solar energy from the reflection on the fucking moon. It doesn't matter if it's cloudy or hot or cold the solar panels will still collect energy
>>58272369
They have roofs that last forever that are made out a tempered clay it's really not that hard.

>>58273746
>Murrica has to import oil from sand niggers
We've already achieved oil independence thanks to shale

nice try tho xoxo :)

>>58271893
easy solution. each tile is already wired into electricity, so just add a toggle low heating element to each tile, much like a heated car seat.

humanity is going to solve problems, there's always a way to fix it. use your brain and quit bitching.

>>58273896
Wow. You're an idiot.

>>58261678
Only useful in areas where it never snows, unless Musk's tech has heating built in to melt the snow (which would probably use more energy than the fucking roof generates). Pretty cool though.

>>58273907
>>58273954

That's a good point, I didn't think about how much energy heating the tiles would take. Oh well, I with global warming they won't have to worry about snow much longer anyways.

>>58271893
Light penetrates snow. Did you not have a childhood?

>>58273954
>Only useful in areas where it never snows
Only if your roof is a shitty design. A proper roof slope will shed snow, so this only really matters on older middle aged buildings (1940 - 1990?) where they did stupid shit with the roof design in snow country for aesthetic reasons.

>>58270612
Underrated.

People need to stop worrying about muh future generations and stick to looking out for number 1.

File: 160809121848-us-oil-imports-shrink-780x439[1].jpg (115KB, 780x439px) Image search: [Google]

115KB, 780x439px

>>58273915
>yuros can't into facts

>>58274030
Most roof slants in the US aren't steep enough to ensure the snow doesn't build up. They build them at an angle, but not a very steep angle, because the most common roofing is shingles, and it makes installation easier when the roofers can walk on the roof instead of having to use harnesses the entire time.

Additionally, most people live in houses that were built before 1990. The house I live in now was built in the 70s, and the house I lived in a few years back was built in the 80s. Having a house built in the 2000s is quite rare unless you are both young and rich. I live in Florida now, so solar roof would be great, but I used to live in Rhode Island and the roof would be covered in snow for much of the winter. You can actually tell which houses on the street have shitty insulation when you live up north, because those houses wouldn't have snow on the roof when the others did (heat escaped through the roof, melting the snow).

>>58274104
The only people who worry about future generations don't have children themselves, so there is no problem.

>>58274104
but if we did that, the minorities wouldn't excel. what kind of world would we be living in then?

>>58274194
The perfect world.

>>58274194
This. Dumbasses from the past brought in niggers by the boatload and dumped them on us to deal with. Now we have entire regions of the country overrun by blacks making life worse for everyone.

They should have left them in Africa.

>>58261678
>>58261727
I live in the north of Europe. There are already solar panels for sale, and there has been for a very long time.

The basic problem where I live is that days are rather short most of the year and there's really not much sun to be had most days during the rather short period it's actually up.

Solar may be a nice "solution" for people living near the equator but it's just not an alternative in very large parts of the world.

File: 1410073979798.gif (2MB, 280x209px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 280x209px

>>58261563
when i decide to stop driving my big giant american v8 from the 1960s that is horribly inefficient but sounds like sex

so when i die in about 70 years i guess

>>58273885
>You can collect solar energy from the reflection on the fucking moon. It doesn't matter if it's cloudy or hot or cold the solar panels will still collect energy
thats fucking pittance though. 20% of the energy you collect is turned to electricity assuming you get direct coverage. Solar panels are extremely inefficient

>>58261605
>Which is probably never
>oil is infinite
sure kid, now go watch top 5 shitty mystery videos on YT retard, cya.

>>58274336
We will either start using bioethanol or make artificial oil by the point it stops being cheap.

File: SZbBnjP[1].png (622KB, 1000x706px) Image search: [Google]

622KB, 1000x706px

>>58274270
>Solar may be a nice "solution" for people living near the equator but it's just not an alternative in very large parts of the world.

That's horse shit unless you're in fucking scandanavia burning whale oil.

File: HaHa_Oh_Wow.jpg (40KB, 562x437px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 562x437px

>>58274336
>Edge: The Post
Learn to sage newfriend

>>58274326
20% is actually extremely efficient.

>>58274270
>describing north Europe as "very large"

Africa is very large. Russia is very large. You are not.

>>58274395
no its not, thats 20% at peak performance, any other time is dogshit unless you have the moving solar panels

>>58274418
20% is efficient for ANY energy source. Learn some thermodynamics. Wind is lucky to hit 30%. coal can hit 40% if they use the very latest technology which guess what most plants don't because it's expensive.

>>58274471
the efficiency drops significantly

you get the best efficiency at peak performance which is when the sun is pointing perpendicular to the solar panel. Any other angle starts to taper quickly

Its why stupid shit like Solar roadways will NEVER become real because they're so innefficient they cost more energy to run than they make

>>58274418
He meant that's efficient for solar cells in general. For anything economically feasible it's between 5%(for amorphous silicon) and 15(for textured) peak.
>>58274471
Even your car is at least 25%. Stationary sources go as high as 60%.

>>58274542
The world record for a coal plant is 46%. Most are still in the low 20s. Same with wind. It's all in the low 20s. Hydro might be more but it doesn't matter because we literally can't build more hydro.

>>58274573
Also another problem with solar panels which is the entire problem with SOLAR ROOFS is that solar panels lose half their efficiency above 40C which is very much possible when they're on a fucking roof

Its why solar panels are often raised a few inches above the roof so air can get under them so they stay cool.

These solar roofs are going to be a bane if they get hot which they fucking will as the temperature outside reaches 32C the roofs could easily hit 35c+

Also if you line one side your total energy production only fucking works for one half the day, not even the fact that they aren't pointing directly at the sun so you're losing more efficiency there and if you're REALLY wasting money lining both sides of your house you're really blowing more money than you'll ever save

>>58274615
And none of that changes the fact that it's still cheaper per kWh than coal.

>>58274573
Gas and steam turbines have been at 50% for decades. 62.5% is the current record as far as I know.

>>58274661
coal and gas plants are steam turbines. The turbine itself might run at 62.5% but the plant as a whole will never reach that.

>>58273885
>You can collect solar energy from the reflection on the fucking moon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1es0Qt5zQ_E&t=159

this was during SUPERMOON(tm) too

>>58274650
>my electricity is cheaper so its worth it
>even though my efficiency is so bad that I'm not saving any money on my initial investment

The best solar panels are the ones you put in your back yard that have motor controls to constantly face the sun through the day, anything less is losing you so much money

>>58264729
Except that the Henry Pump is getting ready to enter the market and eliminate the pump jack.

>>58274737
Ok fair enough. I guess I wasn't seeing the scope of the argument. I thought we were arguing different energy sources, rather than different implementations.

For the record, the US government uses static south facing roof-mounted solar arrays for their government housing. Less maintenance cost that way. I think for solar roofs to work we'd have to have right triagonal roofs with the entire roof surface facing the equator.

>>58274885
Well for reference, the austrailian government cut funding for their solar farm projects a few years ago because they were costing more to maintain than electricity they were making was worth. It was a money sink.

Not saying in that particular instance but they were trying to create a new source so they could save money. I believe the US government uses it as supplement which is a different purpose all together

>>58273136

To be quite honest, we only invest in 5 or 10 Megawatt projects and will line up a utility company in the state that will take it on since power is in good demand across the USA. Storing it really isn't even close to cost effective.

>>58270915
I like this idea. A large amount of electricity is wasted on heating things up.

>>58270915
>You can make plastic from plant-derived alcohol.
You don't make stuff out of alcohol

You turn organic compounds into the alcohol

>>58274270
yes but solar is more efficient in cooler climates

efficiency plummets in high heat

>>58275310
>yes but solar is more efficient in cooler climates
Yes we know this, but its still less efficient than propane, coal or any of the other non-renewables

the max efficiency is like 20% in the most ideal conditions the average efficiency is like 13% assuming its not above 30C

>>58261563
>implying theres anything wrong with oil
Kek

You're not going to get rid of oil and natural gas anytime soon. Considering that extraction has gotten so good in the past decade, you're going to see more of it, particularly natural gas.

And for those that tout nuclear in the U.S., I highly suggest you do a bit of research about the folly of the government today. Dozens of nuclear facilities are being decommissioned over the next decade, and yet there is still no place for permanent waste disposal. It's quite possible Waste Control Specialists will get a contract for temporary storage west of Andrews, Texas. In the meantime, the DOE -- who has the legal responsibility for permanent disposal -- is sitting on its ass and just paying half a billion a year in taxpayer dollars into a fund to address the issue after it was sued for non-action.

The promise of nuclear is nice, but the government doesn't even have a solution for waste. It had 40 years to have something in place, but right now there's no plan.

>>58273256
In Australia (at least in QLD) the government was offering a large rebate incentive 5-10 years ago to adopt solar with excess generation being fed into the grid and credited to the homeowner. A lot of people adopted it.

It soon became obvious that the existing pricing structure that was mainly based off kWh consumption needed to be dramatically adjusted towards a flat supply fee per month because revenue for the power companies was falling and was trending towards not being able to cover the cost of grid maintenance.

The government stopped giving out the rebate after only a few years because it was starting to look unsustainable.

And the ROI that everyone who adopted solar was expecting plummeted. sasuga government

>>58274933
centralized solar farms don't work. solar in its current form needs to be a distributed source to be useful.

>>58275440
Assuming >>58275333 is true, that seems like a massive research fail on the part of the australian government. I don't know a lot about australia but cold doesn't come to mind.

>>58275584
i'm not sure about the whole temperature efficiency thing but the main problem was, and will be for a long time until tesla meme wall batteries become widespread and viable, is having largely solar or wind based power is kinda meaningless if you need to keep the coal plants spun up and burning ready to provide coverage when a cloud passes over the city.

Maybe it'd be more effective in third world shitholes where 99.99% electricity uptime isn't taken for granted

>>58275707
cloud cover doesn't largely affect solar output. if you have enough light to fucking see, you have enough light to get electricity.

but yes we need better battery tech. here in Iowa we're at about 20% electricity generation from wind and that seems to be about the useful limit before you end up with swings too big for the grid to handle.

ITER
T
E
R

Fuck you cunts, in 2004 I graduated and I decided my end game dream job would be ITER, making a real impact on society.

The 2008 financial crisis happened and substantially diminished funding.
Then Fukishima happened and all the paranoid eurofag government paranoid reactions became its coup de grace.

Now I'm wandering aimlessly performing meaningless EE jobs.

>>58274326
>% energy absorbed actually matters at all
You fucking retard, this isn't like with fossil fuels, where you pay for the fuel and it has measurable weight.
Solar could have 1% efficiency and still be amazing if it made up for it somehow.

Pure efficiency is fucking irrelevant because you can't store or overuse sunlight.
What matters is W/$. Exceptions are irrelevant here because we aren't talking about military installations, solar cars or satellites.

>>58274661
>>58274706
Neither of you is fully correct.

Steam turbines may go (not sure here) above 50% in high-tech configurations, but those are rarely used due to high costs. It only really pays off if the fuel is expensive or emission regulations strict.
Pure gas turbines don't reach 50%.
Gas turbine+steam turbine combo can exceed 60%, but loses the advantages of pure gas turbine - quick start, stop and ability to function well at load other than optimal.

There are plants that utilize pure gas turbines, with no steam turbines. They generally only function when electricity prices are the highest. It simply isn't profitable to run them at any other time of the day.

>>58276678
The points is it's still 3 times more effective than solar(which has THEORETICAL maximum of 46%). All that silicon wasted on meme tech. Why not just reflect the sun on some kind of Stirling engine.

Reminder that plants are doing just fine with their sub 1% efficiency. We should make solar dirt cheap rather than super efficient.

>>58261678
Solar shingles have been around for over a decade nothing new from Musk again. They are a lot more expensive than the conventional pannels and thanks to all the additional interconects less efficent and reliable. But Elon has had the idea to put them behind coloured glass that blocks some of the most efficent wavelengths to make them look better. Genious.

>>58274253
I wonder what they were thinking when doing that. "Let's just let all these genetically inferior retards into the country...i mean slavery is going to last forever right?"

>>58275707
Why wait for Tesla? We have had a couple og growatt lithium packs mounted on one os the walls at work for a few years now, nothing new or special about the powerwall apart from a curvy white plastic case and inflated price tag.

>>58269575
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_by_country

>>58276953
That point is incredibly fucking retarded considering that pure conversion efficiency for solar is a totally idiotic measure when comparing it to fossil fuels. It is totally irrelevant for the comparison.

>>58269575
I love this kind plots. According to them space rockets are the safest kind of transport, while simple walking is the least safe one.

>>58277199
Actualy cycling is the least safe in terms of ksi per uint distance.

>>58277199
Anyone who would try to walk into orbit is a retard and deserves to suffer the consequences.

>people heralding the tesla rooftiles as the second coming of christ
Lol hell no. Solar roof panels aren't even anything new. And they haven't increased efficiency much at all over current options.
All they've done is make them prettier to look at and pulled some Applel level marketing tricks to make them seem more significant than they really are.
I wish Tesla would focus on making really cool electric vehicles and drop all these worthless meme technologies, especially the self driving car nonsense.
They're one of the only small time automotive companies to manage to actually stay in the market long enough to release a second model in fucking ages. The Tesla Model S kicked off a new craze in sports cars once the big guys got to see just how insane electric motors can accelerate with their completely flat torque curves. That and that the public and rest of the industry reacted so positively.
I want to see them succeed for that reason, but spreading too little to thin before even one protion of their company is truely mature is going to lead to their demise sooner than later.
They want to be like Google and put fingers in every pie out there, but that's the kind of shit you do with an established, multi billion dollar world class company not the modern equivalent of a small time stage coach builder.

>>58277228
Going shopping using a space shuttle would be badass though.

File: index.jpg (7KB, 275x183px) Image search: [Google]

7KB, 275x183px

>>58261563
what a retarded picture

>>58264557
you've lost a lot of credibility by linking that.

just give me fusion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4yWhA1mVxA&

>>58277571
I wonder why this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BVt2gKHNBA
haven't caught more attention.

>>58269891
and your rent will be costlier because of the amenity. do not think this won't be the case.

>>58261563
When we start executing oil execs and their families

>>58261563
When anything else becomes more profitable than oil. Only profit drives the use of the energy, if it was cheaper to do something else we would be using it trust me.

>>58270507
>denialists
kys

>>58277486
No I didn't. It doesn't have flaws in it. It's a broad overview and it lacks details.
Also what credibility are you talking about? How would this link impact the argument in any way? I could link to complete garbage and it doesn't change the contents of my previous post. If there's a 'conflict' (say it encourages solar on the whole or something).
All that'd say is that my view of lazy people is not what you'd expect.

To me you look kinda stupid right now.

the only obstacle is profit/money + politics

STFU all

>>58277996
That implies there aren't efforts to keep the 'cheaper' options more expensive or too inconvenient.
Don't forget that companies can and do buy small businesses just for the patents and then bury them.

>>58270385
((())), or echos, are often used to put emphasis on a Jewish(-sounding) name. e.g.

>His name is Fred (((Goldstein))).
and so on and so on.

>>58264532
>people that will be hit hardest are the poorest
>They're in a position (like most western countries) where them changing energy production is detrimental and a very poor investment.
elaborate?

>You're not supposed to invest into the infrastructure you're supposed to invest into research while going for more safe-cheap nuclear.
says who senpai, you didnt really explain why aside from possibly storage capacity issues.
>

>>58270385
((())) = /pol/ish for Jew(s)

>>58279083
Storage capacity issues are enough to make solar/wind problematic. The short explanation is that you can't adjust humans demands on the power grid as things are now. If we try to draw too much current we get issues like the TV cutting out. PC rebooting etc. If we're to retain the quality of life we have today it just doesn't work. Without proper storage.
And its not just about capacity. It's about efficiency of that storage. Batteries as they are today could possibly just be a larger environmental issue than just using power as we do today, with very limited renewable energy use.
>elaborate
Well climate change isn't big enough to literally fry us in the short term. It's not like humanity will die out because ambient temperature makes it impossible to live.
The real problem is that we've designed society around how our environment is right now. There's places that would be completely under water if the poles melted enough for instance.
Rich countries can deal with this of course. It's not gonna cause a societal collapse. But poorer places are already facing issues with what's rather mild climate change compared to what we'd get if we just let it go on as we have. And they don't have the capacity to deal with it.
It's a poor investment to have the acceleration fossile fuels provide by being cheap and easy energy when the solutions aren't that expensive anymore. Back in the 1800's arguing for renewable energy doesn't make that much sense unless you believed technology to not really go anywhere. We've gotten far enough to deal with the issue now.
It's very expensive to just keep going. Not for current generations but for future generations.

And naturally if you don't care about future generations you don't have to worry. You could even guard yourself by buying your house in a place where climate change isn't gonna hit you hard.

Sorry I'm not sure I'm coming across right. Its late and I'm not that good at explaining to begin with.

>>58275584
Aussy are fucked m8. They still run copper for their internet with fiber far far off.

>>58269772
>>58273577
I'm waiting for the next existential crisis from leftists to be about wind power and how altering or slowing the currents of wind damage the environment and whole ecosystems. Doubt that's even a thing but eventually it might be. We'll of course discover this problem once everyone is even more heavily invested in such things.

>>58280429
>Aussy are fucked m8
Australia always amuses. It's like they try to one up other commonwealth countries, Europe, and the USA in general for all things. The big brother Orwell/Huxley stuff they regularly churn out every now and then is a great example.

>>58276494
>Solar could have 1% efficiency and still be amazing if it made up for it somehow.
No it wouldn't, the efficiency is effectively how much electricity you make per unit area, volume or what ever metric. Without enough efficiency, solar panels lose the ability to reliably and efficiently pay them selves off, save money and make money as a result

1% efficiency is so bad that all solar panels would be a huge money sink and there wouldn't be a point to use them

Efficiency matters a lot. Its why things like Solar Roadways and those fucking Solar Cone bullshit ideas will NEVER work because they lack efficiency

>>58280886
Its also why things like electric cars won't replace internal combustion engines until the energy density and efficiency of batteries comes close to that of internal combustion engines.

More electricity density and efficiency means more range, more volume, more volume. Current affordable battery technology isn't anywhere near the energy density of gasoline

File: 42626305.png (2MB, 938x4167px)

2MB, 938x4167px

Nuclear is superior.
The only way renewables can stifle coal/natural gas is with space based solar. Put a bunch of solar panels in geosynchronous orbit, beam the power to the surface as microwaves

File: 1444859069132.jpg (438KB, 900x2134px) Image search: [Google]

438KB, 900x2134px

>>58280929
Pebble bed reactors. Boom. No more gasoline, diesel, or ethanol for cars

>>58281174
useless with current technology, what we need is lifter reactors until we perfect fusion.

>>58281209
You can't run a nuclear reactor in your car without immense shielding

>>58281234
Space based solar is useless? No, it's the no weapons in space treaty - normies think it's a death ray in their backyard

>>58280886
Holy shit, you're dense.

In the most common case, the only case relevant to this thread, efficiency is only relevant as a factor in cost and maintenance.
If cost was still low, efficiency could be abysmal and it would still be worth it.

Why do you autists bring up efficiency so much without understanding the implications first?
Is it some weird autistic ideal that better conversion efficiency implies some inherent superiority?

>>58280929
>solar panel efficiency is why energy density is low
Do you even think about what you want to say or is it all a cloud of vaguely related ideas where words freely change meanings mid-sentence?

>>58281268
My bad I meant rtg ( radioisotope thermoelectric generator) not pebble bed

>>58274354
a great way for those countries to make money via exports to those further away no?

Solar for areas along the equator, dams for the rainy and snowy areas.
Places which get drowned in snow could realistically be powered by PE turbines that generate heat from the weight of falling snow to melt the snow and create waterflow into a dam.

Also could be useful to put dams in our sewer systems.

>>58281370
>In the most common case, the only case relevant to this thread, efficiency is only relevant as a factor in cost and maintenance.
>If cost was still low, efficiency could be abysmal and it would still be worth it.
Not really. The cost of the panels is still exorbitant for what they produce which is why you need more efficiency. Unlike oil where you can just harvest more oil from the ground, the only way you can get more energy from the sun is to put down more panels.

This is why shit like Solar roadways or those retarded solar cones will NEVER work because they aren't efficient enough for what people want to do with them. Its extremely INEFFICIENT to just throw money at a fucking sink the way Australia did with their solar farms.

>hurr durr ideas
you can't even retort so you call it retarded and pretend you're right. Its the same phenomena with batteries where the battery's energy density isn't big enough to replace other things like engines for transportation or coal for power. Its because things like coal are WAY more efficient still. Stop thinking efficiency isn't an issue because it fucking is. 1% is abysmal and these solar panels aren't cheap like you keep proposing

>well if they were cheap it wouldn't matter about the efficiency
well they aren't cheap and it does matter with efficiency. Solar panels will be able to fully replace other forms of power when they can compete on the same level as them.

>>58281375
How does an RTG work exactly?

If it has any kind of nuclear reaction you can't fucking put it into a car or a train or a plane

>>58281463
>solar roadways

I like how they just said how they can use it to melt ice and snow without doing the math for what kind of electricity they make vs how much energy it takes to melt snow. Came down to how melting snow took more energy than the solar roadways could produce in 1 day because they're so inefficient and shit

>>58281463
>The cost of the panels is still exorbitant for what they produce which is why you need more efficiency.
How can you be a /g/ay and still not understand conditionals?
Is /g/ not one of your "main boards" or are you here for consumer whore threads?

I clearly said
>If cost was still low, efficiency could be abysmal and it would still be worth it.

>Solar panels will be able to fully replace other forms of power when they can compete on the same level as them.
In many places they do compete already, despite le low efficiency meme. That's because in static installations, efficiency doesn't matter except as a factor of cost.

>>58281516
>conditionals
what conditions are you even trying to implicate? First it was "what if they're cheap then it doesn't matter about efficiency" when it clearly fucking does because beyond your hypotheticals they aren't fucking cheap and they're just starting to be efficient enough to not be a fucking money sink

>clearly I said
except what you said isn't what is actually so.

>they do already
You still can't store it, there still isn't an entire city let alone an entire country that runs on them, so now yea they're totally out performing the alternatives sure.

>efficiency doesn't matter except as a factor of cost
you can't just ignore the costs and throw water into a bucket with holes in it expecting it to fill up.

Its entirely why the australian government dropped them.

You can't just throw up panels for the sake of throwing up panels, whats the point if you're not being MORE efficient with your money, investment or anything. Thats not investing thats just losing your value

>>58281476
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator

It's kind of like a solar panel, but it uses heat from radioactive decay instead of sunlight.

Small amount of radioactive material, heavy shielding, choose sources which can't be weaponized, self driving cars

>>58281556
>Small amount of radioactive material, heavy shielding, choose sources which can't be weaponized, self driving cars
You're going to throw "heavy shielding" onto a car? That'll ruin your performance quick

Hell the small dinky reactors that aren't bigger than a garbage can need at least 6 feet of concrete to effectively stop the radiation.

This sounds extremely inefficient, only the most radioactive materials would produce the most heat. Plutonium makes way more heat than neptunium so choosing a source which can't be weaponized is dumb because the weaker radioactive elements will produce way less energy

>>58281516
>sir we blew billions of dollars on solar panels, lined literally everything that points even remotely at the sun with them but we really don't make that much electricity!
>so? who cares about the costs at least we have them
>but sir its not efficient!
>it doesn't matter, that only matters when looking at costs
>but sir, BILLIONS of dollars
>woopty do!

>>58281549
>except what you said isn't what is actually so.
I'm done
Read up what is "implication"
It isn't just something that is written in greentext that you disagree with.

>>58281593
>solar panels aren't very efficient which is why they aren't used widely yet purely because they don't produce enough electricity for what they're worth

>who cares! If they were cheaper the efficiency wouldn't matter!

>yea but they aren't cheap and it does matter because they're expensive

>omg I'm done with you you're retarded

>>58261563

Nigger do you know how many scientific advancements were made for petroleum?