ARM - Windows x86

rip intel

>>57940291
cross compilers are truly magic anon

>>57940291
WHAT THE FUCK I LOVE MICROSOFT NOW

>>57940291
who cares it's still spyware

>>57940389
they didn't recompile the win32 applications
its all emulation

>>57940291
Because windows is built to have an abstraction layer between hardware specific calls and the OS itself. Windows (and most OSes) are built such that they are not hardware dependent. To change hardware, usually all you need is to rewrite that abstraction layer for the new hardware platform and have a compiler for that platform.

>>57940454
Abstraction layer?
Like a kernel

>Explain this magic x86 emulation
Dynamic binary translation with a shit ton of money to hire devs to make it run as fast as possible.

It wouldn't emulate this quickly on regular ARM processors. I'm sure they have extra hardware to help it emulate x86 like Longsoons MIPS processors.

>>57940553

WINE/free tard developers literally BTFO.

MS gets better performance on .exe apps on ARM than freetards can on x86 baka.

>>57940498
No it is below the kernel. The abstraction layer is where drivers live, they translate API information to hardware information.

Think of it as someone who knows only one language, they then learn another but they learn it by understanding it from their first language they know. So instead of seeing a table and thinking of it in that language they learned, they instead see it, think of the word for it in their language then think of the word for it in the other language.

So I see a dog, I think "that is a dog" then I think "French for dog is Chien" instead of seeing a dog and going "Chien!"

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>tfw we've been through this before

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>>57940553
>devs
you mean pajeets

>>57940646
except nobody used mac
while everyone uses ARM

>>57940648
how does it to insult people who contribute to technology as a mere consumer?

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Okay HP, Dell, and Lenovo: when is your dual ARM CPU workstation being released? Because you have no excuse now.

>>57940454

Compiled code is still generally a series of x86 opcodes. (.NET assemblies not withstanding.)

An x86 binary has to be translated into ARM opcodes and executed in such a way that it never knows it's not on real x86 silicon. The ARM chip has to pretend it's something else.

Apple did it going from 68K to PPC and then again from PPC to x86, so it's definitely doable. The emulator is not even a large piece of code (but you better have real engineers and not pajeets if you want it to run worth a shit). But there is always a cost penalty in terms of performance/energy.

With hardware assist...some special additions to the ARM core...the penalty might not be that large. I'll be impressed if ARM emulation of x86 is so good that x86 binaries and VMs run as well on ARM, to a human observer, as on the real thing.

>>57940676
>how does it to
pajeet detected

>>57940622

Wine performance is actually pretty decent unless you have to deal with DirectX, which has to be emulated using OpenGL. Also, with binary translation, going from x86 -> ARM shouldn't be too difficult. Whether dealing with 32-bit or 64-bit processes, ARM will always have twice as many general purpose registers as x86, so it is possible to have a one to one mapping of registers in one process to registers in another. Most compilers don't tend to make use of particularly complex x86 instructions, so with the exception of loading immediates into registers, most x86 instructions should not map to too many ARM instructions. Finally, since most programs don't tend to use self-modifying code, the performance hit from binary translation should be minimal.

>>57940291
>thanks to the magical emulation technology
>it runs perfectly

A) It's not magical you dumb narrator. It has been done many times before.

B) If Pajeet wrote it I don't believe it's "perfect."

>>57940705
>Apple did it going from 68K to PPC and then again from PPC to x86
Apple used fat binaries meaning 1 program have different 68k and ppc binary. That isn't what's going on here.

is arm still one instruction per cycle

>can play eroge on phone without streaming meme
thanks microsoft, qualcomm

>>57940785
is intel still one instruction per revolution?

>>57940771
>Apple used fat binaries meaning 1 program have different 68k and ppc binary. That isn't what's going on here.

Any 68K Mac binary could run on any Power Mac via Apple's 68K emulator. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_68k_emulator

Apps would run faster once recompiled for PPC. When developers did that they could ship fat binaries so nobody had to worry about getting the right version. 68K users didn't get an error message and PPC users were sure they were running the fast version.

Fat binaries were of course larger so a lot of developers shipped two separate versions any way.

>>57940291
>WoT Blitz
A game for smartphones

Being able to emulate x86 OSs and software on ARM processors has been done for many many years.

However such emulation comes with a heavy performance penalty. What microshaft didn't show you is the horrid performance in things like cinebench, rendering 10-bit 4K HEVC/VP9 video, playing games like BF4 (if possible at all with drivers), encoding video, and video editing.

This is neat but in the end won't end up making ARM relevant in desktops/ laptops anytime soon.

lol windows
are there still people who use it unironically?

>>57940932
Over 90% of people out there do. Apparently not everyone likes spending all day ricing their desktops to get internet points in desktop threads.

https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8&qpcustomd=0

>>57940911
I don't think anybody is expecting these kinds of miracles out of an ARM processor.

>>57940659
back then macs had a real use in multimedia, they also were FAR less crash prone then windows.

>>57941034
True, I miss blow jobs. As much as I hated that rabid faggot he made macs pretty okay to use at the time.

>>57941049
macs were better then pc's till windows xp, that's when they had about the same stability and pc had I believe the same amount of ram at default, by windows 7 no one had an excuse to stay mac

>>57940911
If I could get a good win 7 arm pc, for cheap I would make it an emulation/htpc for the living room, possibly set my dad up with one to as he loved the atari games and snes.

>>57940951
>2016
>caring about desktop marketshare

>>57940857
I didn't know Apple had a 68k emu for PPC versions of MacOS. I was too busy removing the PPC binaries so everything would fit on my Quadra 605's 80MB HDD at the time.

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>>57941108
Doubt it. Performance-wise and budget-wise you can't do better than an AM1 desktop build with an Athlon 5350.

If we ever see PC sticks with SD 820 chips you won't see them for less than ~$200 and they'll probably have the same performance as an Athlon 5350 with the emulation performance penalty and whatnot.

>>57940291
If he had shown something like Half-Life 2 running on it with more than 30 fps, then it would be concidered a breakthrough.
Imagine emulating 10 year-old pc games on a smartphone

>>57941110
Yeah breh, because everyone uses their phone to do video editing and play vidya other than minecraft right?

>>57940291
>inb4 market flooded with shitty arm laptops

>>57940911
No one does that stuff on ARM anyway. They showed off using a browser, watching video, editing word documents, and light gaming. That is 99% of what most people use their computers for. All I believe is going to come out of it is new super cheap laptops - think Chormebook/HP stream.

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Even Microsoft pirates Windows

>>57941153
In maple bucks from NCIX or Newegg that's 400 maples.

>>57941271
That doesn't mean it's pirated, shit for brains.

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Neat trick; Linux has been doing it for at least a decade at this point.

>>57941320
The Joke


Your head

>>57941091
>by windows 7 no one had an excuse to stay mac
You have that backwards. In 2009 Mac OS X Snow Leopard was released and nobody had an excuse to stay Windows.

>>57941339
I think most people are straight

>>57941338
Gas yourself, shit stain.

>>>/reddit/

>>57941271
>Insider Preview

>>57941338

Pretending to be retarded doesn't make you any less retarded, retard.

>>57940423
Yes they did

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_recompilation

>>57941368
>>57941392
No, he post was funny, you just didn't get it.

>>57941363
>I think most people are straight
>durr durr durr mac = faggot meme

Snow Leopard was so vastly superior to the first versions of Windows 7 that it wasn't even funny.

>>57941395
Explain this to me like I'm a child. They couldn't have had Photoshop source code. Was the win32 program decompiled then recompiled for ARM automagically? I didn't think decompilers were that good or accurate.

>>57941395
Dynamic recompilation is a form of emulation. The converted code is not saved to disk.

>dat laggy video

>>57941441
The emulator converts the x86 code to ARM code and caches the converted code in memory. So the next time the code has to execute there's no time wasted translating it again.

There's no decompilation step. A decompiler produces something more human readable (more like the original source). It's a straight conversion. This x86 opcode = these three ARM opcodes, this x86 opcode = these two ARM opcodes, etc.

>>57941440
He's not wrong though (at least for the present time). Macs used to be used by many people but now they're mainly used by literal faggots that spend their spare time being SJWs to make themselves feel better and pretend they are not extremely mentally ill people who should be put down immediately.

>>57941441
The x86 instructions are translated to ARM while it's running..

>>57941489
>t. Idiot Who Believes Memes

>>57941482
I guess my next question would be, why didn't Microsoft do this with Windows RT? If this is purely software emulation, what makes Qualcomm so special besides moneybags?

>>57941464
Probably just a 1080p H264 clip too. x86 emulation in ARM processors is fucking dogshit.

It MIGHT be viable if they OC'd the snapdragon to 5GHz with liquid cooling but by that time doing a cheap A10 build would be a much much better choice.

>>57941519
Nope, this is a proven fact. Disprove it.
>protip: you can't

>>57941489
Unless something vastly changed, and I don't think it has, macs are a pain in the fucking dick to use. Basic functionality is absent or behaves retardedly.

The only reason people stick with macs are

1) they are use to it and don't want to learn a different os, I can respect this, but at least fucking admit it
2) they actually have a work related workflow that requires a mac, again, i can respect this just admit this is why
3) they still believe that macs are better at any creative task despite windows overtaking them in almost every aspect.
4) and these ones I pity, the business professional that is required to use an apple product because if he does, he looks less important or professional.

>>57941529

The vast majority of normies don't need that much power. As long as things look smooth they think its fast.

>>57941524
Windows RT was released before microsoft decided to make peace with win32

>>57941524
Because during the windows RT era emulation of x86 was a million times worse on ARM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUE-gJmcGKk

>>57941153
Fuck, did not realize that that pc was that god damn cheap... have to ask if you know, will this emulate everything through ps1/n64 era? also can it do 1080p streaming well? god knows I have a better cpu/gpu than that but sometimes it struggles depending on codec.

>>57941529
Or more likely Qualcomm hasn't done the drivers for the Hardware video decoder yet, so it's decoding entirely on one core of the Qualcomm 820.

>>57940291
Burn It with fire. I refuse to give In to the whole " Its a cellphone, It's a computer, It's an EVERYTHING" idea. I don't give a fuck If this tech helps Pajeet, or fucking Korean-Miyamoto If this gets popular In the West we literally are going to be In a complete surveillance state. One without any decent fucking video games either.


Tbh everything seemed a little choppy, not used to sub 30 fps loading screens. Makes me think I'm having a seizure. They must be able to do better than this no? I mean clicking one button In photoshop froze the fucking screen for half a second.

>>57940622
Isn't it easier to convert opcodes than it is to reverse engineer a closed source OS API and rewrite it?

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>>57941609
I wonder who could be behind this post.

>>57941592
Well, Microsoft certainly did a bang up job on this and Qualcomm's hardware must be lighting fast too. I've booted Windows XP on an ARM Cortex A9 with 2GB RAM and it took 10 minutes if not more to get to the desktop. It kinda sucks this is a Qualcomm only deal.

>>57941598
>have to ask if you know, will this emulate everything through ps1/n64 era?
yea, I used to play PS1 and N64 games on a laptop with an A8-6410 APU and performance was great. I'm sure you'll have the same experience as well.

>also can it do 1080p streaming well?
Depends if H264 or VP9. I could watch 720p60fps VP9 youtube video (chrome) on my APU laptop just fine but anything above that lagged or stuttered. However it played 1080p60fps H264 video from youtube (palemoon) just fine.

>god knows I have a better cpu/gpu than that but sometimes it struggles depending on codec.
Sounds like you might have a shit browser or video player. Try chrome/palemoon and MPC-HC

>>57941646
Im sorry, but I refuse to walk around with my entire life on my phone, then just go ahead and boot Windows 10 botnet edition to take all of my fucking phones data. That and I doubt you could boot anything but Win 10. Which Is a disappointment, as I've said, Pajeet and Korean Miyamoto will be able to use this tech and It will be beneficial In things like work. Same could apply over here, still I don't think we should just jizz our pants because a phone can run a shit OS with choppy as fuck everything.

>>57941639

The windows api is a jungle man, the only people who really understand it are MSFT themselves.

>>57941681
Funny enough, Windows runs smoother than Android does on similar specs.
See Asus Zenfone vs Windows BayTrail Tablets.

>>57941709
>See Asus Zenfone vs Windows BayTrail Tablets.
DELET

>>57941592
Microsoft unironically believed.... that people would write metro apps for their windows runtime bwahahahahAHAHAHAHA

>>57941598

my piece of shit intel x86 chinese tablet can emulate ps1.
Even a pentium 3 can run ps1 games at an acceptable speed.

>>57940291
>"Video run smoothly"
>It stutters
top fucking kek

>>57941592
>>57941741
It's not even that long ago and I already want to forget how much of a fucking mess that was. I'm still annoyed with this UWP bullshit.

>>57941709
I thought they were entirely different SoCs.

Cool stuff, I hope this leads to inexpensive laptops and desktops and drags the prices of computers down even further.

>>57941172

I saw some insanely good micro pc the other day, it was running Arkham city on windows 10 at a decent framerate. So you kinda can already. Of course, I think that pc costed good $$.
There's also no purpose to play specifically pc games on a smartphone, you need mouse and kb so that defeats the purpose of portability. Unless you use those small as fuck bt peripherals. Still, I don't see how it can be a thing.

>>57941819
But we already have ~$100 Windows 10 tablets with 2GB of RAM and quad-core x86 atom processors family member.

>>57942093
I don't care about tablets or windows 10 I just want cheaper hardware.

>>57942093
then we could get them for 50

>>57941798
Same CPU, different GPU and embedded modules. Also Baytrail Windows tablets usually come with less RAM than the Android versions (typically 2GB vs 4GB)

>>57941664
>It kinda sucks this is a Qualcomm only deal.
Yeah I don't get it either, this will just replace intel with qualcomm. Either way you're getting fucked in the ass

>>57942559
Intel fanboys will only use Intel, the ones that this ARM transition will affect is AMD. Although finally we have somebody more competent to compete with Intel.

>>57940373

Yep, soon we'll all be running 1.6ghz cell phone processors. I can't wait to see how well 3DS Max runs on a Samsung phone processor, THE FUTURE IS HERE.

>>57942594
Yeah AMD is officially dead now. MS stated that windows will be able to do x86_64 programs once the snapdragon 835 is released later next year so once that's out the low end windows market will belong to ARM.

How does ubuntu and fedora run on arm?

>>57941819
>I hope this leads to inexpensive laptops and desktops and drags the prices of computers down even further.

lol

All the shit will be the exact same price because "precedent". Just means the profit ratio goes up for the manufacturer.

Ah yes, the processor of my phones that choke to death trying to play anything beyond 1080p H264. I can't wait, here I was watching 4K HEVC on my PC without issue, time to give that up and welcome the glorious future of 1.2GHZ phone processors in my PC.

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>>57942713
>All the shit will be the exact same price because "precedent". Just means the profit ratio goes up for the manufacturer.

>>57940454
This.
Libreboot was ported to arm do quickly because they only needed to rewrtitr the first stage. The rest was cross platform unintentionally

Can linux do this without recompiling shit ?

>>57942842
yes what do you think android is

offsite computation

>>57942863
Yeah but thats java.
Also you need to bundle all .so files for all architectures.

On the other hand i just read QEMU can do this...

>>57942863
>android
It's fucking shit, that's what it is. It'd be nice if I could run Android apps natively on my Linux desktop, but I can't even get them working with any of these dodgy Android emulators.

>>57942872
No it's probably not.

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>>57940622
DELET

What's so special about it? Mac OS had 68k emulation when they switched to PowerPC and Mac OS X had PowerPC emulation when Apple switched to Intel

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>>57940291
>>57940291
Running the GUI as Local-Admin privileges.
Is ths still allowed in 2k +
?

>>57942559
>Yeah I don't get it either, this will just replace intel with qualcomm. Either way you're getting fucked in the ass
Windows is inherently useless with ARM, the ARM SoCs rely on kernel modifications so MS have to make a custom kernel for every single SoC they want to run it on, while on linux devices the SoC manufacture can do the kernel work.

This is why windows phone and windowsRT devices usually have outdated SoCs, by the time MS gets around to kernel updates the SoC is usually 12 months old.

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>>57942899
>On the other hand i just read QEMU can do this...
yea, you can easily set up qemu to act as a interpreter for non-native binaries
it's not commonly seen/done simply because most software used in linux is foss/portable in the first place, so you'd just compile everything for the platform you're using, rather than emulating another one

pic related, first is my actual cpu, second is the 64bit ARM port of arch, a chroot isn't necessary, but it's an easy way to provide programs with the libraries they need (naturally you need to use arm libraries with arm programs)

>>57942779
It was ported quickly because it was 99% C.

While /g/ is sperging out over anime and video games people who own offices are thinking about how they can effectively cut their power bill in half, and only pay a pittance for the hardware to do it.

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>>57940291
>Windows 10 on ARM running an emulated x86 game runs faster than Android
What the actual fuck

>>57945123
What if MS made its own boards?

>>57940291
x86/x64 opcode decoder and translation to u-code
same as ever

>>57946570
>native x86 code in an emulated x86 env runs faster than java

[ ] lesser kek
[ ] normal kek
[x] top kek

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>>57945408
I actually used that to run Wine on Android back in 2011, never got a native X to work though, just over VNC. But after that I did manage to get Wine with X on my N900, could even play Diablo 2 smoothly.

>>57941686
>The windows api is a jungle man, the only people who really understand it are MSFT themselves.
Kek, no they don't, stop kidding yourself.

Guess this is good news for Windows, but... If you're on Linux it doesn't matter since there are native ARM apps there.

>>57940686
what are those portless cards on top of under the gpu?

>>57946586
>What if MS made its own boards?
They would have to make their own entire ARM SoC to compete. The ARM SoCs are all built around the assumption you can easily modify your kernel when you feel like it.

>>57946934
They just have to make a deal with a manufacturer.

>>57946934
They don't have to. Just treat it like an embedded system. Buy Windows 10 get computer for Windows 10 free.

And they'd easily be able to trim all the driver support for everything but what they know will be on the MS-ARM computer.

Think like a businessman.

>>57947004
>Think like a businessman.
you're on /g/, most people don't even have a job here

>>57941567
>easiest OS to use
>"pain in the dick to use"

You're a special type of stupid, aren't you?

>>57940553
Russians did it 3 years ago. MS is a piece of shit.

>>57947255
You could do that long before 3 years ago >>57946706
Does not take a genius, people did it 6 years ago, remembering the first blogs and forums I saw about it, that's with ARM, not counting in PPC over a decade ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerVM_Lx86

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>>57946706
wew lad. shitty 2005 phones with pajeet-tier OS were able to handle Windows 95 and some 3d gaymes like Tomb Raider or Quake.
Also linoox community got BTFO once again.

>>57947684
>dosbox
>missing the point of the thread

Also no, you couldn't do 3D games like Tomb Raider or Quake on it, it was running slower then a 20Mhz 486 on that hardware.

Next time be more creative with your bait.

>>57947950
Yes you could.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbmD7wZC9DE
Search for tomb raider gameplays on symbian-powered nokias on yt.

>>57948034
You fucking idiot, hope you're just baiting.

I was talking about DOSBox.
The thread is about binary translation, not native applications.

>>57948119
Is DOSBox not doing any form of emulation when it's run on non-x86?

>>57948233
It is doing emulation on any platform.

But the Tomb Raider and Quake you where talking about are not in DOSBox.

DOSBox is not the topic of the thread anyways, shitty PDAs with WinCE or Linux could do it in 2003 too.

>>57948284
For reference I am not the Anon you were talking with, I was just curious.

This is actually pretty impressive. I have a Pi3 and am still blown away by the powerful little quad core processor. You could literally use it as a desktop replacement

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>>57942702
I remember them working on ARM crap for servers.
And some hybrid ARM+X86 SoC.
I would love to see people reacting to AMD ambushing them with an announcement that they're reviving Project SkyBridge.
But I guess that just a dream that will never appear in reality.

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>>57948480
128 core ARM server.... mmmmmmmmmmmmm

>>57948462
https://eltechs.com/product/exagear-desktop/

>>57948462
Load up RISC OS on it for a fun little look at what a native ARM OS is like in terms of speed.

Boots in 2 seconds.

>>57949248
Can someone explain what optimizing an OS for an architecture entails? Is it anything outside of handwritten assembly?

The thing that confuses me is that if it's written in C like any other OS then it all comes down to the compiler and it should be equally as good on each platform, why is that not the case? Is it just a matter of doing performance testing for a different architecture and choosing faster techniques for it, or is it something else?

I remember PPC specific operating systems being incredibly zippy years ago as well.

>>57949382
Assembly.

>>57949382
Basically not being written like an absolute shitshow. Haiku is written in C++ and that flies on even old laptops.

>>57941567
last time I used a mac was i want to say 2004-2005 and fucking nothing would work the way it was suppose to... or at least the way linux or windows did... fuck I use windows on a daily basis and only touch linux once every year or so but linux feels less foreign to me then macs do.

>>57941675
I have a phenom II 955 and a 280x that has/had no hardware decode for newer codecs, that may have changed with the new drivers, not 100% sure there, but i'm still waiting on seeing if there are issues with em... for me the driver is not an update priority.

>>57940498
wtf is a cornel????????

>>57940721
If they have special hardware support to detect self modifying code then it shouldn't be too difficult to just statically recompile the code by default and fall back to emulation only if it's actually needed.

>>57940633
>So I see a dog, I think "that is a dog" then I think "French for dog is Chien" instead of seeing a dog and going "Chien!"
Good example.

>>57941441
Maybe you should stop being retarded. You can translate any turing complete language to any other turing complete language. Whether that is going to be fast is a different question.

>>57941529
They only emulate legacy x86 applications. Everything else runs natively on ARM.

>>57945123
>windows is bad because the manufacturers can't fragment it as much as android

>>57946934
>The ARM SoCs are all built around the assumption you can easily modify your kernel when you feel like it.
translation
ARM SoC manufacturers can't be arsed to implement automatic device discovery so that an abitrary version of an OS can run on any SoC.

>>57940291
It's garbage. Emulation will never perform well.

>>57946934
https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/3/30/373

>I think you're going to be waiting a very long time for that to happen.
>No SoC vendor adds device IDs to their on-chip devices to allow them to
>be automatically discovered - it's only through ARM Ltd's development of
>their Primecells, and then vendors integrating those into their SoC (maybe
>with their own modifications) that we've started to see this kind of ID
>system appearing.

If the hardware is shit don't blame the software.

>(((