Even the Linux creator had to bow down to the systemd overlords.

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>>57366717
systemd is one of the best things that happened to linux in the recent years so shut the fuck up

>>57366717
He already sold the kernel to the nsa

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>>57366729
It will probably *be* Linux soon

>>57366717
You know what they say, give someone an init system and they take over your entire operating system.

>>57366729
KYS NSA SHILL

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>>57366717

>>57366729
hi lennart

>>57366729
This.
There is nothing wrong with systemd if you have nothing to hide.

>>57366749
Half-humans have something to hide :^)

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>>57366717
who gives a shit it's all open source anyway

What is the state of non systemd alternatives? Is devuan a thing? Will it be hell to use any software without systemd or does everything depend on it already?

>>57366786
>What is the state of non systemd alternatives?
They all suck. I think the best you're going to get is OpenRC (on Gentoo), which is sort of on the level of 90's era init daemons of the time.

It works, except when it doesn't, and to configure it you have to write shell scripts. If that's what you want (aka the pre-systemd days), OpenRC is the init system for you.

>>57366776
>devs refuse to fix issues
>other software, even the kernel, have to work around them

This is the power of open source

>>57366795
>It works, except when it doesn't, and to configure it you have to write shell scripts

I'm using gentoo since /g/ meme'd me into it 4 years ago. Not a single openrc malfunction, had to write a grand total of 0 scripts.

I had minor problems with it on debian, a rc-update fixed all of them

>>57366776
not just open source but free open source too

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>>57366743
>>57366749
had any one of you two actually deal with the shit that systemd improves?
I had and it sucked as, I had to spend a lot of time on reading up the shitty DSL of the init system combined with the "debian" extras that would then create the links to the runlevels and when it broke I had to crawl through endless posts on mailingslists all complaining that you don't write init scripts, you copy paste an existing one because otherwise you will fuck up.

on the other hand take a look at fedoras cockpit. which uses the APIs from systemd to provide a really nice and comfy UI

>>57366795
>ITT faggot who didn't use OpenRC ans shill at systemd

>>57366786
you can use gentoo or any of its derivatives, void, slackware, alpine, etc and they all use openrc/runit/sysvinit. they all work fine and you'll likely never have to manually interact with them unless you're porting software. the systemd creep is mainly affecting things that red hat maintains, like the entire gnome stack, but there are pretty seamless workarounds for that too on gentoo.

>>57366795
stop making shit up, these systems are rarely broken and the distro's won't ship any broken service scripts

>>57366749
Privacy is just natural and a good thing.

Even god says, we don't have to say everything, but when we do, it needs to be the truth.

So I decide to not say anything, and only what I see fit, when I communicate with an evil government controlled by people who behave like Satan's spawn.

I bet you think 1984 is a documentary and not a dystopia.

---

It's good to be an honest person. But you don't need to brable about everything with everyone. It's even written in the Bible.

God is pro privacy.
Satan is against privacy.

>>57366809
Use OpenRC faggot, it's really easy and not bragging to be GNU/Systemd

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>>57366840
can openrc be used to do something like pic related?
that is actually what you all are missing out on.
systemd is just a fucking service that is going to be used to build much more nice things on top of

>>57366795
>>57366821
What happened to upstart? I had it in a netbook and it booted way faster than other computers in my house.
So, is debian+openrc the way to go instead of devuan?
What about mesa, graaphic drivers and steam, does non systemd fuck these stuffs?

>>57366805
>>57366818
>>57366821
I've been using Gentoo for 5 years as well

OpenRC can't even restart e.g. openvpn if it crashes. (Feel free to prove me wrong on that one). Heck, it will even think the service is still running. (compare e.g. `rc-status` vs `systemctl status` after killing a daemon process)

>had to write a grand total of 0 scripts
good job, then you're hardly qualified to talk about init systems. I've written dozens of systemd unit files and a handful of OpenRC scripts. I _greatly_ prefer the former.

>>57366854
>le web interface

>>57366857
>What happened to upstart?
It got scrapped when it became apparent that the design was not going to work. The second generation of upstart is basically systemd. (Systemd could be considered an upstart fork)

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>>57366854
all those nice details, like log messages or and stuff

No one has any legitimate reason to complain. Write your own software if you don't like it. Isn't that the beauty of FOSS?

>>57366854
None of this has anything to do with OpenRC

>>57366854
Go back to Windows if you need fancy buttons on everything

>>57366883
>Don't like Linux? Make your own kernel

simply ebin

>>57366854
>binary logs
Fuck off

>>57366854
Clearly you couldn't parse log files before systemd

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>>57366884
oh rly?
than how easy would something like this architecture be with openrc?

>>57366883
The beauty of FOSS isn't shoving a bloated init in every distro mouth. Hell it'll be soon impossible to get a single distro without it fucking faggots.
Don't you see the huge mess that it is now? >>57366735

You're either dumb or NSA shills to approve that.

>>57366916
Funny you should mention it, the binary logs are actually the reason why I started using systemd. (Since then, I've come to love it for 10+ other reasons as well)

>>57366928
Why would you want that?

>>57366729
>systemd is one of the best things that happened to linux in the recent years so shut the fuck up

>>57366749
>There is nothing wrong with systemd if you have nothing to hide.

The godly will respect others property rights and privacy rights.
The ungodly will violate others property rights and privacy rights.

"But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
Matt 6:3.4

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
Matt 6:6

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/privacy.html

>>57366729
this.

>>57366928
Using the non-systemd APIs instead? All that picture shows which is related to systemd is “System APIs”, hurrrrrrrr.

>>57366933
>The beauty of FOSS isn't shoving a bloated init in every distro mouth.
You're misunderstanding systemd. It isn't an init system, otherwise it would be called `initd`. It's an operating system. The init system is one component of it.

>>57366968
wtf I love GNU/systemd now

>>57366982
wtf I love systemd/linux now

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>>57366854
>what is snmp
>what is a management server

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>>57366927
but that's the thing, parsing logfiles does not really tell you which command with what params wrote that one fucking line.
you can really dwell into the system and figure out whats going on during runtime

>>57367020
>plaintext logfiles can't have a consistent, easily-parsable format

>>57366952
But many people nowadays don't care for god and want only be praised by there fellow humans who also don't believe in god.

And they destroy your privacy, so not only god can see everything, becaue god can already see everything, but also satan and his spawn.

The anti privacy agenda is Satan's Agenda.

Satan also would like to forbid christianity and other believes. If you can't hide your believe anymore then it's easy to destroy every believer left.

Humanitarian will be the new world religion and it will be against god's commandments.

And this is the reason why god will intervene, if people does not. Because this would be truly a godless world. Even more though than we already have it.

>>57367042
>reddit spaces

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>>57367014
you can keep on using snmp, I think it is good choice.
for my demands using a single service (cockpit-bridge) over ssh ssems to be a more straight forward approach.
thx for you kind input

Is there any objectively justifiable reason to avoid systemD?
For a desktop system..?
Other than
>hurr not UNIX enough

Is there any advantage of going into a non systemD setup?

Genuine question. I haven't heard any arguments for this yet

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>>57367029
ohhh boy
the fine diference becan '_can_ have' and just 'have' is lost on you

so I did some logfile parsing (mostly with logstash)
but I also did some greping and so on

>I had a lot of assumptions
>But reality set in
>The only thing about a log message that is REAL is that it consists of
> a timestamp
> and a message.

There is no consistency about what a timestamp is
( relative time or absolute time
, with or without microseconds
, datetime format
, etc
)

and there is no consistency about what the message is
( probably a string without newlines
, but logfiles with stacktraces include newlines in the messages
, probably some tags in the beginning of string
, there could be severity logged
, the name of the program
, the actual command that was run
, but in the end it's a random string with possible newlines
)

and if you know that something with the harddisk is wrong, try "greping" all related messages

>>57367114
Windows shills assume that they can false-flag people into not using linux with the systemd boogyman.
The objective facts are that systemd makes startup and managing systems much more streamlined. Also it makes dealing with UEFI much less frustrating than trying to use GRUB.
If systemd was a botnet it would have been outed years ago. Chromium was instantly discovered when google tried to install packages on your system without permission.
It had a problem with retard developers in like 2012-2013 but Linus made sure to swiftly take care of it.
Also, no one is forcing you to use it. Plenty of distros ship with openRC now like Gentoo and Slack still uses sysvint.

>>57367138
>I suck at it so it must be bad

ok kid

>>57367138
Fair enough if your point is that “existing plaintext logging systems suck”. I was trying to argue that “logging doesn't need to be binary by design”.

Anyway, doesn't stuff like rsyslog have a fairly consistent format? I mean if you're talking about a central logging system, then the non-journald alternative would be rsyslog

>>57367144
>Also it makes dealing with UEFI much less frustrating than trying to use GRUB

Shows you don't know what you're talking about. Systemd is not a bootloader (yet), you're still using grub.

>>57367144
Ahh.

Well then, what the fuck is up with these autists jumping through hoops they don't have to?

>>57367155
>doesn't stuff like rsyslog have a fairly consistent format
yes it has
rsyslog is fine and does a good job
but it is not as good in structuring the the log entries, indexing them and giving you a way really query them. If you don't need that extra stuff, don't use it.

systemd can use rsyslog instead of journald

but let's say, you want to show the last 10 messages related to your harddrive in a webinterface you don't want to go through heaps of plaintext files, you just want to write a query and let the computer figure out how to deliver you the result

>>57366717
>a large part of the back is left unprotected to leave the apple logo visible

>>57367242
I really hope he got mugged by sandnigger.

>>57367237
>but let's say, you want to show the last 10 messages related to your harddrive in a webinterface you don't want to go through heaps of plaintext files, you just want to write a query and let the computer figure out how to deliver you the result
Agree fully with you on that, journalctl is the reason I originally started using systemd

BUT you could accomplish the same by having a front-end parse the plaintext logs for you. For example look at `auditd` (which dumps plaintext to /var/log/audit) and `ausearch` (which parses those plaintext logs)

My point is that the interface and the underlying on-disk format have very little to do with each other. Personally, I couldn't care less about the difference. The only major argument for binary logs seems to be “efficiency” and the only major argument for plaintext logs seems to be “better redundancy”. Pick your poison.

>>57367166
systemd-boot you dumb fuck

>>57367177
>Well then, what the fuck is up with these autists jumping through hoops they don't have to?
It's called autism. When you're too retarded to install gentoo or use slack and get a systemd-less environment but you have time to shitpost on /g/ all day.

>>57367315
Everybody uses grub

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>>57367270
I don't care about the underlying format either
as long as the guy who has to actually develop that software is happy
and it seems that the developer was feed up with plaintext and took something better suited for the job

let's have an example form my won /var/log/syslog

[CODE]
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286844] [drm:drm_edid_block_valid [drm]] *ERROR* EDID checksum is invalid, remainder is 130
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286844] Raw EDID:
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286846] 00 ff ff ff ff ff ff 00 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286847] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286847] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286848] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286849] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286849] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286850] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
Nov 3 11:18:35 cc kernel: [20427.286851] ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
[/CODE]

we can see datetime, a hostname, the component followed by timetsamp followed by a mulitline log message.

and btw, if anybody could give a grep command that only shows my storage related message, that would be nice ( I do have older machines running without journald )

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>>57367144
nice try NSA

>>57367390
Remember: Anti-systemd shitposters are hired NSA shills

The NSA already has well-hidden bugs and backdoors in established software like crond, dhcpcd etc.; now systemd is coming in and taking all of them away.

Of course the NSA would be upset, which is why they're trying to spread as much systemd FUD and bashing as possible, to get people to use their good old backdoor'd legacy software in mission critical environments.

>>57367338
Then you haven't had to deal with modern laptops
>>57367390
>Schizophrenia
Again, if systemd was botnet it would have been outed.
Also this is implying the NSA needs backdoor access to your computer. Just being online is giving them everything they need you dumb fuck,

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>
>
>
> ###############################################
> ### your /etc/ folder will be replaced by systemd soon ###
> ###############################################
>
>
>

and it will be a binary format


where programs can put schemas
so you can get autocompletion
or spelling errors detected
so people don't have to implement their own config file parser

and finally
you will be able to change a single parameter in a config file by calling a simple command.

it will be like uci (openwrt)

>>57367412
>Again, if systemd was botnet it would have been outed.
awful logic, I'm sure the NSA can outsmart the neckbeards that look at the code

>>57367502
and they can't outsmart your 90's legacy systems because?

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Remember: pro-systemd shitposters are hired NSA shills >>57367403
They want everyone to be consumed by the botnet

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Miss me yet?

>>57367322
>asking for legit criticism about something you don't like = shitposting

Well fuck me m8

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>>57366809
>I have never heard of daemontools

>>57367737
systemd kids will never experience the glory of s6+s6-linux-init

>>57366809
>I had and it sucked as, I had to spend a lot of time on reading up the shitty DSL of the init system combined with the "debian" extras that would then create the links to the runlevels and when it broke I had to crawl through endless posts on mailingslists all complaining that you don't write init scripts, you copy paste an existing one because otherwise you will fuck up.
fucking this

systemd has so many actual advantages over OpenRC that people who don't deal with systems will never understand
>user services
>session/seat tracking
>socket activation
>suspend/hibernate (pm-utils was a nightmare)
>monotonic timers / random timers
>automatic daemon restarting
>service-based process tracking and management (via cgroups)
>usable logging interface (journalctl)
>service file overrides

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>>57367916
mah man!

writing init scripts feels like pic related

>>57367737
>(((Bernstein)))

>>57368203
>doesn't even know djb
>just spouts tired /pol/ memes

get out of my /g/

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>>57367338
Grub is so passé

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>>57368252
spotted the kike

Daily reminder that
>GNOME, xdfe, lxde, KDE ... have systemd dependencies
>systemd is metastasising into more and more UNIX philosophy utilities.
>it will soon be impossible to have a modern Linux without systemd

>>57368743
>xdfe, lxde, KDE ... have systemd dependencies

i don't like or use systemd but this isn't true

>>57368818
I tried to emerge these and it every time emerge warned about systemd dependencies.

>>57368982
set -systemd globally and they should merge fine.

is switching from systemd to OpenRC on Manjaro as easy as just installing from the right pacman or is their some other shit that needs to be done.

semi-illiterate here.

>>57369708
there's no reason for you to do this if you don't possess the technical aptitude

>>57366786
>state of non systemd alternatives?
Real Unix is running just fine without it. illumos/OpenIndiana just released a new snapshot last night.

>>57369717
Fuck off NSA, I need a non meme answer.

>>57369808
that's not a meme answer. it won't affect you. if you really cared at all about any of this then you would put in the effort to understand how to do it. there are guides on the arch wiki specifically for people like you. i do not understand how people like you get by in the world without critical thinking skills.

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>>57366729
Nice argument, fagot

it's pottering tier software being forced by redhat that is the problem.
as for systemd itself, it is a totally unaudited 100k+ LoC C program with few comments with a horrible security history. besides that it's not too shabby so far.
a one golden standard is what linux needs to be widely adopted. The problem is systemd and its ecosystem tends to be a steaming pile of dogshit.
having a pile of dogshit as a golden standard is not a good idea, but that's just my opinion.


10 / 10 idea
6 / 10 execution
2 / 10 implementation

>>57366947
>the binary logs are actually the reason why I started using systemd

Why? What advantage does having binary logs get you over non-binary logs?

>>57366749
If you're so concerned with knowing what others are doing all the time, you must have some pretty damning things to hide yourself.

>>57369899
The binary logs did not provide me an inherent advantage, the advantage was provided by `journalctl`. (But `journalctl` implies binary logs)

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>>57369850
I didn't ask how to do it you turbo nigger, all I asked is if it was as simple as typing in sudo pacman -S openrc-base or if there was something else I had to do with systemd so it wont fuck up any dependencies.

Instead of memeing and being a useless frogposter you could've been useful for once in your NEET life and posted a link to somewhere that explains it, since you're obviously too stupid to be able to (and by the way Manjaro is different from Arch, even though its arch based, you tranny).

>>57369943
no nothing will go wrong, just pacman -s openrc-base and then uninstall systemd and you'll be fine :)

>>57370018
kys

>>57370025
you deserve to be set on fire in a trash bin