.

Yeah. I agree anon both are absolutely retarded. The middle ground is the best.

But I suspect you're praising the former. You wouldn't if you had actually dealt with any of that shit. Legacy reasons aren't reasons. They're poor design because they weren't expecting change.

can't you wait an entire day

>>57245061
Can't say if it's good or bad.
Ever wondered why MS Excel succeeded over Lotus 1-2-3?
MS Excel got releases and, therefore, new releases earlier than Lotus 1-2-3, despite being bloatware.
Lotus 1-2-3 was a good piece of software and it ran faster, but by the time they got release, computers became fast enough to run MS Excel at the same speed as Lotus 1-2-3 with yesteryear (though they were new when MS Excel came out) features ran on older computers.
In other words, businesses are profitable more with new features done fast, not quick speed done slowly.

>>57245098
>implying some anons don't live already in the next day

>>57245146
I'm not old enough for this but really. What does spreadsheets have that is so performance intensive you couldn't actually run it on a computer for more normal people?

>>57245177
I'm not proficient with spreadsheet software, so I can't say much on that.
LibreOffice covers my needs on office suite software though.

>>57245146
>Lotus 1-2-3 was a good piece of software
I do not really know, mang
I have heard some bad things

maybe it was microsfot sills though

>>57245177
>>57245214
Excel does a lot more than spreadsheets, it's basically it's own programming environment, with every data processing facility under the sun. Organizations do huge amounts of work in Excel, it's really insane.

I can't wait until we max out processors, so optimization will be an important thing again and brainlets get forces out of software development

>>57245061
Linux didn't support dual monitors then. This is false post

>>57245287
pipedream desu
no reason to optimize when you can spend time adding new social media features instead

>>57245287
I think a good deal would already be achieved if we finally supported multiple processor cores in most applications.

>>57245287
Keep dreaming. Optimization is done on compiler and VM level these days, the programmer can focus on writing code.

>>57245317
Someone will eventually figure out a way to do multithreading without locks. Or we'll get APIs that abstract multithreading.

>>57245214
Yeah but really. Spreadsheet software is a tool that processes text input into a grid to produce results it puts in other grids (be it text formatting or raw text for displaying).

It's absolutely trivial to do the basic shit. And having it be extended by a programming language like basic is also trivial.

The most performance intensive part about it is the displaying/making graphs, or if the user expects you to process far too much shit.

Even back then if you had normal sensibilities you'd find among programmers back then you'd consider it a fairly easy program to make if you've made gui applications before.
I just don't see how there can be a gap.
>>57245259
Yes. I know exactly what excel does. But it's not complicated. You define functions and a language syntax. And in the case of Excel you have visual basic (and I hope they've moved to C# now) as an option. Where you write basic functions in the language. But that's on the user end. Writing an interpreter is trivial. Especially given the very lenient runtime expectations.
>>57245287
We are. All the time. Every chug on your computer or 'shitty' laptop shouldn't really be here. A simple notebook should handle most things in an instance. But the problem is that people aren't encouraged to actually care about performance because of the way maintaining software is set up.

You don't have the core developers maintain products. Cheaper people do that. So the developers who actually move forward can leave a trail of destruction. Also consumers accept shit too readily.

On the topic of spreadsheets can you imagine how many minutes it'd take to just start modern Excel on an old computer? The most basic shit nowadays runs on hundreds of megs of ram and clock hundreds of millions of cycles per second just idling.

If you open a task manager can see a '1' in the % column for CPU usage that means the old computer is stalling.

>>57245351
>optimizations are done by compilers
You're absolutely retarded and know jack shit about optimization for software.

It's far from enough. The compiler does a lot of nice stuff. But it's not that far from late 80's or early 90's.

>>57245317
Parallelization isn't easy though

>>57245392
You're absolutely correct it's not trivial. But it's not hard.
It's much much harder to try and do without.

>>57245351
Why there's no API for abstract multithreading yet?...

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desu

>>57245435
>container.stream().parallel().filter(condition).forEach(action);
There are some easy parallelization APIs already, I'm confident that they'll get more features over the years.

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>>57245501
Lol

>>57245501
Accurate desu senpai.
C was THE mistake.

>>57245622
Elaborate or don't meme

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>>57245061
go back to your fizzbuzz codelets, kid

>>57245287
They'll just start selling more cores or multiple processors on a desktop PC.
Future of /g/
>/g/, my processor can't handle Windows 10 it got so bloated over the years. Year of Linux when?
>kek poorfag doesn't have 4 processors, 10 16K monitors and 8 GPUs

>>57245061
Shit anon... Saved

>>57245259
Actually it s called vba but whatever
Just write a program in python or use gnuplot

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>>57245501

>>57245726
Do you realize how expensive would be to reteach people to use gnuplot and Python instead of Excel?

>>57245061
Both aren't proper engineering.

>>57245061
Some truth in this image kiddos.
Saved.

>>57245287
you know that optimizaton is a meme right?

>>57245374
You don't sound like you know what you're talking about.

>>57245157
I for one welcome our time-traveling friends.

...

...

>take me with you

>>57245374
wut? a compiler will optimize code much more efficient than a human could ever dream

???

>>57245729
so stupid but I still kek'd

>>57247304
I found the bait! XD

Am I an oldfag now?

-----

Seriously, compiler only optimizes so far. If you're using extra-mega-superlong ints when your values only go from 1 to 5, the compiler will trust your word that extra-mega-superlong ints are needed.

If you decide to use a loop rather than some other structure to randomly draw cards from a deck and make sure you don't get two of the same, compiler will say "okay!" and let you do it.

Because it trusts you. Don't let compiler-chan down by making her do work for no reason. Computer-san doesn't want to waste processing power.

>>57248992
>Am I an oldfag now?
>compiler-chan

Never.

>>57248992
You've never coded in assembly, have you?

>>57247304
I think Anon is talking more specifically about the JVM. Not realizing that isn't a compiler, the JVM does a fuck ton of optimizing work

>>57245287
We will hit the hard limit on nm fabrication

The solution: more CPUs

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>>57245061
This is the /g/ equivalent of the dadrock/le wrong generation meme.
I hope you

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             FIND INNER PEACE

>>57245312
underrated

>>57245351
OpenMP abstracts multithreading.

>>57245351
If you do multithreading by using locks you're doing it wrong.

>>57245374
>I like pulling shit out of my ass
Hope you find that gerbil, kiddo.

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>they fell for the graphical meme

Use sc as a spreadsheet and prove your not a pleb.

>>57250271
hue hue hue

>>57250271

looks nice
i mean we are so used to polished GUIs that actually makes you look closely again

>>57250292
jajaja*

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>>57245061
do you think engineers back then couldn't be incompetent? have you ever worked with legacy software? shit like pic related

>>57250225
Poorly, but it does.

>>57250238
Depends on it. Games that utilize multiple threads will benefit even with locks, but I wouldn't use them on servers or alike (unless it's about caching, and generating a new set of data would be even more expensive).

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>>57250271
Libreoffice Calc = 100MB
sc = 956KB

And considering that the manual for sc is over 30 pages of A4, I'm sure it's more than capable.

>>57250271
>I load a full UI
>to run my console programs
pendejadas

>>57250384
What's this code used for?

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>>57250384
Not that anon but

>have you ever worked with legacy software?
Yes, and I wanted to kill everyone in the building. Especially because no documentation
>We don't need documentation, anon
>We wrote it so we know what everything does by heart

Worst year of my life

>>57250951
What language did you work with?

>>57245087
Not OP.
I wish that I'd lived in the 80s, hacking a C64. The problems for solving back then seemed interesting and computers were simple enough, now it's a mass of complexity and we take so much functionality for granted. It seemed fun back then, now it's hell.
I believe that marketing killed the fun in computing.
/me proceeds to recite that Alan Perlis quote at the start of SICP

>>57250896
case conversion

can't we just go back in time and change the future?

>>57250896
some CRUD bullshit related to invoicing

>>57250951
>We wrote it so we know what everything does by heart
yeah that's pretty much how it worked here. until the main IT guy straight up died of a heart attack.

now we're stuck with the obfuscated house of cards he spent three decades building.

>>57251074
Make sure to piss on his grave for me.

>/g/'s version of "born in the wrong generation" fags from reddit
>unironically

>>57251126
guy spends his entire career overcharging for a broken fucking ERP that he only knew. he wasn't on the payroll, he was a consultant working 40 hours a week for ONE client.

sure, he had a ton of dosh and job security, but the thing eventually grew so massive that he'd fix a dozen problems a day. the technologies he was using were on the verge of going out of support. he couldn't find anyone to work on this shit with him. he was headed towards disaster. a potential bankruptcy for the company.

he built a life of constant stress for himself and soon enough his heart gave. he got his comeuppance. it was poetic justice in the end. I feel no need to further sully his image.

Has anyone here freelancing and had any luck just approaching businesses asking if they want a website? What did you do?

Or do you have to be a connected normie and have a friend's dad refer you to all of his associates?

I have a full time webdev job but I figure if I can charge people for my time installing wordpress for them then why not?

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>>57251219
fugg, thought I was in /wdg/

>>57251219
>>57251246
Why not just look around and shoot some little companies a few emails? No harm done if they don't want anything / want to undercharge you.

>>57245146

Does anything other than Excel support pivot tables?

>>57245214

I taught statistics 401 for one semester, and I have two masters degrees - accounting and business.

The only thing I ran into that Excel could do that Libreoffice or Apple Numbers couldn't was pivot tables.

Oh yeah, bachelors in computer science too...

>>57247304
>

Only if its 64 bit.

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>>57250271

Oh Jeezus... You actually read that oriental shit?

Is your name Wang Lee?

KEK....

>>57251352
>what is Macau

>>57251262

> I'm in marketing... I' the MBA guy from above.

Don't cold call or send emails out of the blue. There should be local publications you can advertise in. Check for your local chamber of commerce.

this next part will require to leave your domicile for something other than a hentai convention.
Attend a chamber of commerce meeting. Wear a button up shirt and a pair of Dockers. Tic tacs won't kill you.

>>57250066
Just migrated from /pol/
What is this sorcery?

I know people that fuck around with CSS at home then tell people they are "programmers".

>>57250271
>japanese
>spanish
que pedo?

>>57251019
marketing kills the fun in anything, so you're definitely right

>>57250271
Shit that looks cool

>>57247113
Yes of course I do. Because I'm not explaining what you don't know to you.
If you want the basic introduction to non-algorithmic optimization (that is to say you go beyond the basic optimization that a newbie would manage) Mike Acton has made several talks that explains fairly well what optimization is about. And how compilers don't do it and can't do it. Though this second video you'd think it'd be able to, it can't because even if it's a super trivial case it requires run time profiling to figure out. And even then you'd have to assume the program is completely done before you can measure. Because it's a data structure issue, you build the rest of the program with that in mind. If the compiler changes that behind your back you got issues. But I'm gonna stop explaining because I can feel the autist within me adding millions of footnotes here that you'd need to actually get it.
Something compilers are shit at atm is compiling to simd. I don't know why really. But it's just the case. Should happen more often than it does in my view.
https://youtu.be/rX0ItVEVjHc
https://youtu.be/GPpD4BBtA1Y

But yeah you're full of shit and I hope you can see that. You haven't even taking an optimization course in school or considered the subject for more than a few hours.

>>57251019
Go into embedded programming?
Especially for mass produced things you will find manufacturers pushing for cheaper hardware, so if you can make that a reality you'd be paid well.

I couldn't get behind that though. It's not as fun as it is frustrating to rely on hardware specifics. And very often there's bugs in hardware.

>>57251309
Working on masters now, and I have not used any office products since high school save for opening a few trash ppt files or doc files

>>57250571
Also sc stores files in puretext, making them much more stable.

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>>57245087

>>57251386
Code tags

>>57251074
>yeah that's pretty much how it worked here. until the main IT guy straight up died of a heart attack.
>
>now we're stuck with the obfuscated house of cards he spent three decades building.
Hope your company isn't that one that still sells faxes software.

>>57251016
>What language did you work with?
AFAIK they rewrote their software at least once. Originally on C++ then on C#. But honestly language was irrelevant. I remember seeing a file with 13500+ lines and everything was on the main(). Quality USA coders.

>>57253926
That's not the worst I have seen. In one project they have included source files (#include "bla.c") because the idiots maintaining the project apparently came from Java and had never heard of the difference between declaration and implementation.

>>57245061
>dt = ...

Want to know how I know you failed intro calculus?

>>57253982
If Civil Engineers and architects have to present get licensed before start building I don't see why SE shoudn't. Would save everyone endless headaches and being on suicide watch.

>ranking 8 by CDC.
>http://www.cbsnews.com/news/these-jobs-have-the-highest-rate-of-suicide/

>>57254039
If civil engineers or architects fuck up, people die.
If a software engineer fucks up, someone's phone app crashes.
Who the fuck cares?

>>57254051
>airplanes aren't programmed
>pacemakers aren't programmed
>nuclear plants aren't programmed

Oh, wait, of course they are. When SEs fuck up, people die as well.

>>57254082
You're delusional if you think mission-critical firmware isn't tested extensively before release.
Because with firmware, there's no such thing as a patch, you have to throw out the entire production run of the device and offer recalls.

>>57254051
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

>>57254118
ehh so basically what anon said, faggot

>>57254051
TOP KEK WITH KEK TOPPING ON TOP
What is stuxnet boy?
Are you sure you're old enough to be using the internet? let alone talking about computer stuff?
this is a 12 to 17 year old forum

>>57254118
Since we're going for ad hominems: you're delusional if you think tests catch 100% of the bugs.

>>57254051
>>57254118
http://www.math.umn.edu/~arnold/disasters/patriot.html

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>>57254039
>you need a license before you're allowed to install a compiler

>>57254051
>>57254118
>>57254172
>>57254124
Don't forget Ariane 5

>>57254234
only if you release for production

>>57254259
>release for production?
What if I release free software with no warranty?

>>57254299
The licenses are already quite clear on this matter.

>implying you ever read them
>yes, including GPL v2 & v3

>>57254328
So what you're saying is you wouldn't need a license to release free software?

>>57254338
Not him, but since FOSS is provided AS IS, you wouldn't.

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>tfw when first year software engineer degree.
>tfw already learning C.

>>57253264
Nah. I certainly don't agree on that. But both sides have major flaws. I'm not saying that the moderate position is inherently the best. As you can see from the post I pointed out flaws with the older programming.

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>>57255623
>he's even moderate about the moderate position

>>57250271
supercalc was excellent

>>57250271
the killer app for the pc ws the spreadsheet -- spreadsheet developer showed it to an accountant

holycrap he said "this is what I do all day" & this
program does what took me a week in in no time at all) I WILL BUY IT. where computers are labor-saving, they sell.

>>57250384
no labels for gotos, even

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>>57256991
The spreadsheet was a killer app for the Apple II first

>>57251200
>built a life of constant stress
No he didn't. He chose the stress. He was working as a consultant 40 hours a week for 1 client.
Get a new fucking job? You're not liable for their failures.

>>57245177
>What does spreadsheets have that is so performance intensive

spreadsheets.

they're huge sparse arrays with variable data size and type. you have to have a strategy to manage that, you can't just bung each cell into ram and happy days.

>>57245501
>>57245622
>car written by hipster nerds in JS locks up or crashes because didn't get through the event loop before the turnoff.
>car written by computer scientists in C takes 10 years longer but doesn't kill anyone.

>>57257983
So what? It's trivial. A sparse data set is no problem. If you haven't done sparse storage you're probably not a programmer of any significance at all. I'm not sure why you're mentioning variable data size but that's also trivial.

I made a tetris clone and im not even halfway down and its fucking 500 lines of code

how do I get gud at oop. i feel like im playing chess and can barely see a couple moves ahead compared to other people's elegant solutions.

am i doomed to be retarded or can you get better at architecting software?

>>57250292
>can't tell difference between a huehue and a pancho

Kill yourself. Quickly

>>57247304
lol, no.

>>57258919
What do you not get in OOP?

>>57245146
And where do new features that work correctly fit in?