Is university necessary to earn a decent salary in programming/IT?

No, but it doesn't hurt if you can.

>>55940696
Yes. You'll never get into high paying companies like Facebook or Microsoft without one. You might get lucky on a 0.01% chance of getting into a meme startup that takes off, but other than that you'll be earning Pajeet tier salary that maxes at around 100k.

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fuck no. if you have a lot of self motivation it can actually hinder you.

>>55940742
>Facebook or Microsoft
>Not Pajeet
Once Hillary is in office she and Paul Ryan are going to ensure all those jobs are performed by H1B Pajeets. As it stands they're already 50% Pajeet. Hope you are willing to work for curry.

>>55940819
Pajeet doesn't know how to calculate the backpropagation of a neural network layer. I'm not worried about being replaced.

>>55940748
oh god that picture is making my cancer flare up

>>55940748
really there is no way you're improving that code desu

>>55940696
it's easier to become project manager and then boss shity 4chan programmers around

>>55940854
>My meme job won't be taken
Yes, yes it will. Tech companies have shown over the last two decades that they are more than willing to sacrifice competency to cut costs.

>>55940897
Facebook pays their H1Bs a median salary of 135k. They aren't going to bring Pajeet from India and pay him 135k plus another 100k in stock a year to code Java CRUD applications.

>>55940748
Why is it that 80% of these meme pictures are always about not knowing what modulo is?

>>55940696
it gives you a huge carrier kickstart

know so many faggot, that started as low level CS-wannabe-faggot, and ended as project managers, he might not the smartest, yet, he earns the most

What do people even do with more than 100k a year?

>>55940961
because it's the least intuitive operator in basic programming?

>>55940934
>Facebook pays their H1Bs a median salary of 135k.
Fortunately when there is no more H1B limit, that number is going to drop like a rock.

>>55940972
Pay a lot of taxes, travel, and preen about how important it is to address the needs of transvestite celebrities instead of poor people in their own neighborhoods.

>>55940975
Is it that hard?

Society could sneak it in along with +, -, *, / in elementary education, and I'm sure it'd be fine.

>>55940972
I live in europe, average person makes 3500 usd a year.
I live on roughly 2500 a year

Honestly, I have no idea what people do with that much money :(

Most classmates went abroad, earning 15k a year, doing shit jobs, wasting all on booze and drugs

>>55940696
No, I got £35k after my first programming job which lasted 5 months just by being good. Meanwhile my uni friends who didn't drop out can barely get in

>>55941065
I guess if you are married, have kid(s) and 2 cars, and live in a house and have to pay to fix plenty of siht in your house, you can use 100,000k.

>>55941097
My uni friends make $200k usd right after they graduated.

>>55940972
It's called saving you consumerist.

>>55940972
My parents and sister make 400k a year combined and we dont know what to do with it

>>55941242
Invest in real estate? Pay some Pajeets to make a video game for you? Hire a translator to localize some VNs? Pay an artist to draw your manga/comic ideas? Be creative.

Fuck no. I'm making over $150k a year and I flunked out twice from boredom.

I've worked with people who have degrees who are amazing, but their degrees aren't in software. Take for instance this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HRgfxDtaPI

>>55941781
Unrelated; this is a good watch so far. Thank you for posting (I mean it).

>>55940696
>Is university necessary
No! Knowledge is necessary!

>>55941242
Give me $10

>>55940748
The real crime is the shitty formatting of that code.

>>55940991
they did... it was the day in class they taught you how to divide they also explained remainders.

>>55940696
No. If you can, then you probably should, but if you can't afford university, just start building applications to prove that you can code. A cheap 2-year degree + a portfolio/blog worked for me.

>>55942163
pleb

I skipped uni, am currently 2 years into my career and earning £27k. It was a struggle to get taken seriously at first but as long as you actually know what you're talking about you'll be fine.

I have a PhD

I want to kill myself everyday

These two statements aren't necessarily related

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Why the fuck does programming pay that much?
Is it actually hard?
Like what the fuck is so important that you get $100K

>>55945274
wat?
It's not like programming is this magic job, it's just a tool.
If I use a screwdriver to build something extremely useful, then fuck yes do I deserve $100k.
Similarly, if I write a program that can design the optimal antenna for a NASA mission, I also deserve a nice salary.

>>55945404
Why do we compensate our tools that much then, if theyre just problem solving.

Maybe I should switch careers.

>>55945274
If sucking corporate schlong or taking orders from and enriching fools is normal for you, then you're virtually hired!

>>55945418
>""""""""""""just"""""""""""" problem solving
Being good at problem solving is literally the most valuable skill you can have.

Entirely depends on experience. If you have good experience, no. If you've never held a job in the field before, yes

hey, who wants to start a tech company?

I'll think of some names and one of you can get started on a logo

>>55945464
facechan
bump your face to the top

thnkr
walks user through the process of thinking about something

>>55945447
I am good at that, thats why I should switch.

I dont think its necessary to get your foot in the door. But i imagine it's more so like how an ugly chick lives life. Will they find love? Very likely, but will they be working harder to get it? Absolutely.

>>55940865
You could print the "Your number is " part before the comparison. That way the comparison only has to print "even" or "odd"
Should save you a little hard drive space.

>>55945085
Suck a bag of dicks, summerfag!

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>>55940696
sliding into a 100k + equity job in australia this year, no uni degree

it can happen, but you need to network network network, be good at what you do and don't be an asshole

posting bacon because idk what fits this

>>55940972
i spend a lot on my codeine because im addicted, apartment, huge aws bills, and escorts

then i go in to the startup i work at and be the loveable CTO everyone likes, kek

It's difficult to prove to someone that you know just as much as someone with a degree so need to make a name for yourself by contributing to important opensource projects. Then people may take you seriously.

What kind of jobs pay upwards of 100k?
Interning right now and I don't know what I should apply for. My concentration is in system architecture.

>>55940696
This is the worst place to learn programming.

>>55940972
In the Bay Area? Pay rent and live like someone who makes 40k anywhere else in the country.

>>55941065
You either spelled Botsuana or month wrong.

>>55940696
no, fuck no, save you money.

>>55940696
>a decent salary in programming/IT?
a miracle is necessary to earn a decent salary in those shit saturated meme fields

>>55948145
Is it really that bad? I've realized that actually most of those jobs are shit, where's the money at then? Why do people keep saying there is a mad cash in software/web dev?

>>55948182
>Why do people keep saying there is a mad cash in software/web dev?
If there is so much mad cash you should clearly be able to see that reflect in the average salary of a CS/SE/IT grad

the numbers speak for themselves

>>55940696
No, but be prepared to show experience and a portfolio of work that proves you know what you're doing. Nobody is going to hire you on good faith alone.

Imagine the kind of place you want to work.
Imagine who runs that kind of place.

Do you think that person took a degree?
Do you think that walking in there and telling people that you don't give a fuck about the profession enough to get a degree is the right move to get a job there?

In the 70's nobody had a degree and they did okay. But nobody had a degree back then.
Everyone thought that programming would be obsolete within a few years because it was so easy and you could build on other peoples code.
Things are different now, so get a degree.

>>55945923
yup... that's the problem

>>55945567
Which problems have you solved most recently?

>>55940961
A lot of college students don't realize the power of modulo

>guy in cs class asks me to review his code
>assignment is to implement alphabet wrapping for cipher
>he shows me triple for loop magic
>I show him one line solution using %
>he drops out next week

>>55948352
Just finished Portal 2.

>>55948375
Shit nigga

>>55940696

Yes.

Being good at your trade is for the birds. The truth is they can always find some pushover to work long hours and get their project done as people like that are a dime a dozen. Project management is where you make good money, and you'll never get their without a Bachelors. Even then, you really need a Masters to even get looked at for management in some companies.


>Sys Admin at a large company, finishing up my Bachelors ATM.

No.
Just "scam" normies

So /g/ would you rather:

MS in Comp Sci, with a focus on
>machine learning/algorithms
>data centers
>software engineering
>bioinformatics
>networks
>security

Or a Masters in Software Engineering.

>>55945253
From what I hear a PhD is overkill for CS generally speaking, not worth the extra work over a masters

>>55948457
>Masters in any IT field
u pullin me leg ther? lmao

>>55948487
>IT

>>55948487
>IT
>CS
Different, though related, things. IT pays less, generally.

>>55948502
>>55948503
I said IT field you melts, if you want to be pedantic: tech field

>>55948502
>>55948503
Depends on a language. Here in my shithole everything is called IT.

>>55948524
CS is not an 'IT field'

>>55948608
I just said tech field you dumbfuck

>>55948608

>>55948602
>>55948629
>>55948524

>>55948602
>go to university
>pay thousand in murridollars
>get masters degree in 'IT'
>now know how to install printers and do network wiring
>finally reached true pajeet level

>>55940696

I have A degree, but not a degree in programming. I earn under 100k. I think it helped me, but showing off projects helped more. At more senior interviews, no one asks about education. Start off with technical questions and independent projects right away.

>>55948671
>degree in programming
Is this actually something people study and get a degree in?

>>55940961

I never used modulo irl. Not once. Or abstract classes.

Or linux.

Or binary (came up at interview the other day). I used hex once, to shorted item ids.

>>55948682
Believe it or not, it doesn't mean that you literally only have classes in Java and other programming languages.

>>55948682

"Computer science" that leans either toward hardware (mix of EE and understanding operating systems / low level memory shit or toward knowing a lot of syntax and patterns). At least in the US.

I am:

>>55948671
>>55948683

I feel like having a CS programming degree would make interviewing easier. I know shit about networking, for example.

>>55948608
it pretty much is

if you have chad personality you don't need a degree in anything

>>55948608
tired of this meme. yes it fucking is
t. comp sci major

>>55948700
>mix of EE and understanding operating systems / low level memory shit or toward knowing a lot of syntax and patterns
That's like the basics you learn in the first 2 semesters in CS. After that it's like 80% math.
You're getting a degree in CS specifically so you don't end up as a code monkey.

>>55948741
IT is a CS field. Not the otherway around.

>>55940854
>Pajeet doesn't know how to calculate the backpropagation of a neural network layer.

I work with a few Pajeets. They're trash.
They copy/paste code from Stack Overflow and wonder why it doesn't work.
"You have to change the variable names from what you copied, Pajeet."
ffs

>>55940696
It makes it easy. I'm making 100k out of college which is nice.

>>55940696
Not really, but it can make things easier. It also doesn't fucking matter to some people what you studied. I went to school for biology and landed a $65k per year support job based on the fact that I had a degree and liked fucking around with virtualization on my home server. They're also paying for the certs they want me to have.

From watching friends looking for jobs, not having a degree seems to get you weeded out immediately by lazy or high throughput hiring departments regardless of skills. Not fair, but what I've seen.

>>55946277
Google/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft.

>>55940869
Kek,
Tard here, is it possible to be one with minimal tech experience but good at being a project manager?

>>55948457
Machine learning or security.

>>55949870
I hear SE focus is under the most demand, with networking/security paying the worse. Data management under high demand also. Machine learning seems the coolest though.

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There's some strange comments here. If you can get a degree, you should, for a couple reasons.

For starters, you're in a unique position. I'm not talking about the "university is for discovering yourself" meme. I'm talking about the basic living situation you're in while going to school. You're not working, and you have the perfect excuse not to be working. You get to focus entirely on advancing your knowledge. Once you enter the workforce, you're going to be stuck in a routine, you're going to have real deadlines, your time is much more regimented, your days are much more repetitive. Frankly, school is much more enjoyable, simply because you have more variation in your life, lower expectations, and more freedom in general. Take advantage.

The second reason is having a degree will open a lot of doors. This sounds like a university talking point but it's true. There's a lot of companies that aren't interested in hiring people without degrees. There's a lot of companies that are going to exclude you from higher pay because you don't have a degree. It's something you invest four years in that results in a lifetime of benefits. All the economic studies indicate as such.

Having a degree makes getting your first job easier. Again, most companies have zero interest in hiring a junior developer who doesn't have a degree and thinks having a Github is a valid substitution. If you don't believe me: go to Indeed or Dice right now, search "Junior Developer", and look at the requirements. If you can find a single position in your area that hires junior devs without a degree, guess what: they pay shit.

People will say higher education has become too expensive and they have a point. Do what I did: go to a community college first, then transfer to a State school. You will reduce the cost by half, easily, and you have the exact same degree at the end.

>>55950106
Just becareful what you want to transfer WILL be transfered. Sometimes they wont give credit for certain things.

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>>55950151
Absolutely. Study the fuck out of the transfer agreements. Know exactly which classes will transfer and which won't. Know exactly how far you will be towards your bachelors degree after you transfer. Don't rely on other people. You have to own your education, you have to demonstrate that you are personally responsible for yourself. Investing a few hours in research can save you thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours.

After I transferred, I was a junior at the State university, taking junior-level classes, with about 60 credits under my belt. And because I studied hard at the community college, I found the university classes to be perfectly within grasp. I aced most of them. I finished with the exact same bachelor's degree as everyone else two years later, but I paid far, far less for it.

The degree hooked me my first job, with practically zero effort. Go to a school with a reputation for a strong CS department. I was hired by a programmer with a CS degree from my school. With a strong starting salary and full benefits. Everything falls into place if you play your cards right.

The people telling you to skip school are basically asking you to take a shortcut and hope everything works out in the long run. Why would you assume that risk unnecessarily? Especially when, it is as I said, your time in school is a rare opportunity with more free time and relatively little in the way of expectations from others. You will probably never have that much freedom again until you retire. That's just the reality of being employed. People depend on you.

>>55948964
How did they get hired in the first place?

>>55950106
>If you can find a single position in your area that hires junior devs without a degree, guess what: they pay shit.

What's the expected salary for a junior developer?

>>55951725
120k if you have a degree
30k if you don't

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>>55950304
>I aced most of them

College CS freshmen here.
Any tips for acing classes?

>>55948457
>masters degree
Consider suicide. There's really nothing to be gained there and unless your employer wants this you are wasting your time.

>>55951748
What the actual fuck.

>>55951748
>there are subhuman niggers who will believe this
lol

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>>55951725
Depends totally where you live. There's a website called PayScale gives pretty good estimates (in my experience.) The number varies so much by city that there's really no fixed number to go by. I will say that, after I graduated, I was not going to accept a position paying less than $60 grand -- even if it was in a very low cost of living area. (My first job wound up paying more than that.)

In general people on the Internet are inflating/lying about their starting salaries. Or the people who start with Google salaries are the loudest. I'm not sure. Most people don't work in San Francisco, most people don't work for Google, and most people don't start at six figures. PayScale can give you more accurate numbers, or, you can check the average starting salary for someone graduating from your university in your field (if they publish that data -- mine did.)

That said a CS grad should earn more than most majors, by a fair amount.

>>55951761
I studied hard, that's about all I can say. In my higher math classes I would sometimes spend 2-3 hours on a single problem until I thought I had perfect understanding.

I also had genuine interest in CS and programming, I read books that weren't required by the class because I genuinely enjoy learning about computers and math. I was one of those people who started learning how to program when I was 13, even though it was all way over my head at the time. I remember I bought a C++ book when I was in middle school and worked through it until I got to the chapter on trees.

Having real passion goes a long way.

>>55940972
Depends where you live, that might be a lot or a little given that.

For me $40k/yr is all I really want for where I live. I just want enough so I can enjoy what few hobbies I have.

>>55951761
Read your books and at least research any other books your professor recommends

make use of the office hours

try to think of questions to ask your professor during or right after lecture

>>55948457
Everything but bioinformatics, fuck anything health related.

>>55948457
totally comp sci security you will make bank

>>55948608
It more or less is when most companies want a CS degree for IT related positions, that and shit like Devops exists.

>>55951863
Better than doing nothing while unemployed right now.

>>55952017
>Devops

those hours of compiling Gentoo actually paid off

Its not necessary to earn a degree to do well for yourself in IT.

A lack of a degree can prevent you from moving into management roles, effectively limiting your career.

If you're interested in IT, getting a degree in the traditional manner probably isn't the best choice. Working an entry level position and taking classes will gain you experience, while avoiding massive student loans.

>>55952028
>Muh unemployed maymay
At least you tried.

>>55952047
didn't even really try to be honest

just waiting for this semester to start so i can slowly start to fail out

yes, programming is 90% networking and having connections, if you expect to earn money with programming skills alone you'll end up being a neet

>>55951900
>>55951994
Thanks for answering.
I've got one more question: at what point could/should a CS major start looking for an internship in your opinion?

I mean, what classes would an interviewer see as a prerequisite?

>>55952113
Found the project manager.

>>55952121
Look as early as possible. If you start early enough you can use that as an excuse for your lack of experience, and an early start always looks appealing on a resume.

Any course on data structures or algorithms is good

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>>55952121
>I've got one more question: at what point could/should a CS major start looking for an internship in your opinion?
This is something people will argue about. I didn't do an internship personally, I took summer classes instead. Maybe I got away with that when I shouldn't have. But I had a nearly 4.0 GPA, I went to a school known across the country, and I'm fucking good at what I do (not trying to brag, but being honest.)

If you want to do an internship though, I'd say start whenever you want. Know the basics of how to program of course. School teaches the very fundamentals. You aren't going to be using only the standard library in the workplace, and you aren't going to be implementing things that are handled by a library.

Do you know how to configure a build (using a tool like Maven or Gradle?) Do you know how to write unit tests that, say, validates the JSON response from a controller? Do you know how to implement quality logging for an application? Do you know how to optimize a query? Do you know how to create a feature branch, commit your changes, merge in development, and resolve any conflicts? If not -- could you figure those things out on the fly? (I think a fair employer should be gentle with someone learning, but in my workplace, we don't have interns to be honest.)

>>55951624
Because anon is lying and does not have a job

>>55952266
>>55952176

Thanks anons.

>>55951870
>>55951890
The truth isnt so dramatic.

>>55948375
we got some MIT level shit here right now guys

>>55952003
I'm a biomajor with a BS anyhow, so tbqh I included it for completeness since its an option, but I am already familiar with a lot there so rather not double down.

Programming yes, IT no.

It is plausible to do one of those coding camps and get a programming job, but really if you want to just walk into a company with a resume and walk out with an interview date, you need a degree.

For IT, on the other hand, you can easily get an interview with a resume with just a year or two of helpdesk work and an A+ and Network+ certification.

>>55952113
I figure this is true in any profession really. Nothing is ever pure meritocracy, also, sometimes networking in of itself is a skill employers want in their employees.

>>55952176
From what I hear, always pick courses with direct programming knowledge.

Don't know about other countries, but in mine, 99% of companies before test you, want to see if you have CS degree

you greedy fucks.

I'd be perfectly content with 50k out of school. Right now I make $900 a month as a stockboy. less than two years from now I graduate and I will seriously take the first decent development position I can find.

>>55952563
But IT in general pays less for this reason, key phrase is, "in general" however.

How much are programmers paid in your county?
>Serbia
PHP: ~500+euros per month
c++/java: ~700-1000 euros per month

>>55952614
$900 a month?

Where are you located, and how do you survive on that?

>>55952614
>>I'd be perfectly content with 50k out of school
why even go to school then? 50k with a degree is a serious meme

>>55952768
United States. PA. Small town. I pay $575 a month rent with my gf. Other bills total about $150 a month. I mean, I don't have much to save, and I'm totally fucked if I end up in some horrific car accident or something, but other than that I manage.

>>55952805
Do you have any skills?

Come to Pittsburgh. Low cost of living with some actual job opportunities.

>>55952777
Sit on my ass and write software in an air conditioned office space / building while working with actual semi-intelligent people but I "only make 50k", or bust my ass in a warehouse working 60+ hours a week, working with degenerates and rednecks and barely make 35 - 40k.

hmmmm...

>>55940742
Sounds like the opinion of an underage.

>>55952830
I've actually been thinking about Harrisburg / Camp Hill / Mechanicsburg, but Pittsburgh does sound interesting. You say there's good opportunities out there?

As far as skills go, I've still got a lot to learn. Right now I'm geared towards general app development, nothing special. Getting into some high level courses now that I'm a senior. and I've got my first internship lined up this fall. I'll be out by next summer.

>>55945274
The people who own that amount of money are good at their job. The ones who are shit dont own anything. Programming is as bad as law now. Being competent nets you ridiculous amount, being anything but lets you live in poverty for the rest of your life.

>>55940972
>>55952614
It's easy to burn through.
I pay for my house, two cars, insurance (home, auto, health), security, HOA, student loans, utilities, internet, cell phone, maintenance for everything, PC upgrades, yearly phone upgrades, shit for my little sister since she's still in college, groceries, clothes, and other shit I'm most likely forgetting.
This all comes to just under $9,000 a month.

>>55952683
What's the cost of living like?

Rent/food etc?

Also Serbia was right about the Muslims. Why didn't we listen?

>>55952856
make sure to subtract your loans out for your 50K for a good while

also
>codemonkey
>semi-intelligent
they're on par with warehouse trash and employers usually treat them roughly the same. """"Software""""" """"""""""""""""""""""Engineers"""""""""""""""""""""" have about the same job security as forklift monkeys. Both are completely replaceable and have no special characteristics that can make them appear as a unique asset. They're like the cheap toilet paper of enterprise.

Also, there are plenty of ways to make 50K+ without a degree if you have even a quarter of a brain. It's always hilarious how the ones mopping floors always cry about "muh degree" like it's the only way to get a respectable high paying job.

>>55952960
Ah, you're in the development world. I do IT, so I'm not totally familiar with the programming job landscape around here. Google has a presence here, and there's plenty of big healthcare that does internal development. If you're willing to move, I'd say hit up Monster/Indeed and send your resume to a few places.

I can tell you, however, it's a really nice place to live, and you can get a decent apartment for around 600, in a nice area.

>>55940696

IT = Technicians

AKA server jockeys who jerk off to anime while mining buttcoins

programming = making programs

there is a difference

>>55952999
Good lord. Where are you located?

My mortgage, insurance, utilities, internet, cell phone all add up to about $2000 a month. Add about $300 for gas and maintenance (for house and car).

>>55953041
Neat. Still would rather work with "code monkeys" and make enough to live comfortably than work with "forklift monkeys" and be worked like a dog.

Also, you sound bitter as fuck. Did you get fired or something? Kicked out of school?

>>55940696

Doesn't anyone care about getting a cool job

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>>55940742
>high paying companies like Facebook or Microsoft

>>55953147
I'm sure everyone would love to have a "cool" job, but it has to be able to pay the bills.

>>55953022
I'm paying rent,electricity,internet etc ~150euros
For food, you can spend ~5-10 euros per day, if you wanna eat good food.
If you wanna eat junk, like salami, macaroni,pasty, you can do it with 2/3 euros per day.
Bear for example, 2l bottle is 1.5euros.

You can live nice with 500euros, if you live alone.

>Also Serbia was right about the Muslims. Why didn't we listen?

we were fighting isis and al qaeda in 90' but people don't get that yet

>>55953085
Exactly, IT people most use and maybe manipulate established programs, which involves the least mathematic knowledge. Experience helps of course still. However, the less math, the more people can do you job, the worse it pays.

>>55953133
Not him but TX here, for that you can live really well here unless you want to be in the absolute prime city spots.

>>55953184
>clinton fucked the serbs
>people stupidly loved him for it
Damn them to hell.

>>55940742
>Facebook or Microsoft
Nobody seems to understand that the best IT jobs are at small or medium sized businesses.

You can largely escape a lot of the corporate BS and have a high degree of autonomy. I've found it to be worth the 10k-15k pay difference.

>>55953253
Yes good goy, keep working that 40k a year job in flyover land.

>>55953231
I'd hope you'd be able to live well on 100k, unless you were talking about my 2500/month.

I've heard good things about texas.

>>55953041
>Also, there are plenty of ways to make 50K+ without a degree if you have even a quarter of a brain. It's always hilarious how the ones mopping floors always cry about "muh degree" like it's the only way to get a respectable high paying job.

obviously, not everybody can be an (successful) entrepreneur. for many, it's either go to university / community college / technical school / trade school and learn some skills, or work in a warehouse / retail store / customer service center / whatever miserable job to scrape by

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>>55953244
every american president would do the same, they needed army base in that part of europe, and they built one on Kosovo.

>>55953269
>40k
More like 55k, but what does it matter if my 55k in "flyover land" goes farther than 100k in your overpriced hellhole.

Enjoy your massive workload and corporate political shitshow.

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>>55953041
>""""Software""""" """"""""""""""""""""""Engineers""""""""""""""""""""""
The title gets abused I think. Probably more so than other fields. Keep in mind, in the US, anyone can call themselves an "engineer" and get away with it. (This isn't true everywhere.)

I went to an ABET accredited school, CS was part of the engineering department, I got a math minor, I wrote plenty of low level system utilities in C and studied mathematical analysis. I always find it funny when people think that software is somehow exempt from engineering. What do you think is controlling the ISS? Do you think deep sea rigs are monitored by eyesight? Why do so many people who studied other fields of engineering wind up writing software (often inadequately as fuck, and later consulting people who are actually interested in the field and made it their life?)

Software engineering and computer science is especially deserving of its own department and its own degree, because there's so many fucks in the industry who invaded this field for no reason other than there's practically zero job growth in their own.

>have about the same job security as forklift monkeys. Both are completely replaceable and have no special characteristics that can make them appear as a unique asset. They're like the cheap toilet paper of enterprise.
I'm sure; that's why software engineering is consistently ranked in the top 10 best occupational fields, both by pay and job satisfaction.
Do you know how much intricacy is involved in not only the business logic of some places, but the implementation of said business logic? Why do you think managers are pissing their pants about the retention of software developers (to the point that big internationals are forging illegal non-competes between themselves to prevent poaching?)

>Also, there are plenty of ways to make 50K+ without a degree if you have even a quarter of a brain.
Statistically, outliers.

Sound bitter as fuck m8. Flunk out?

>>55953292
No, talking about your $2500 a month if single.

>>55953330
Sure their could have been a way to do that while also btfoing islamic radicals.

However we had no fracking and dems keep cucking domestic production on federal land or however else they can. So we were more saudi enslaved then.

>>55953360
CS is in between EE/CE and SE, in a way CS'ers are more "engineers" than SE people. Of course, there lots of overlap though so, not necessarily.

>>55953353
Ok then, share what you get for 55k a year in your shitty flyover land then.

>>55953085

no you fucking moron IT stands for Information Technology, it doesn't "equal" one job, it's a blanket that covers a lot. You must really hate people who do IT because you'd rather make up shit to separate code monkeys from IT sweatshops but I can promise you I'd would rather work with my fellow moronic colleagues who know just enough to get by than sand niggers who sit in a room all fucking day and code naked and reek of curry.

>>55953429
You are right, but generally speaking, he is also right.

Degrees for programming are a meme. You can learn everything you need to know for CS by taking one math class and one intro to CS (algorithms, searching, and sorting) online for free via edx.org.

>People with degrees earn more.
No shit. This is only true because something like surgeon actually requires a formal education, so they get lumped in with the "has degree" crowd while all of the niggers living on welfare get lumped in with the "no degree" crowd. Does having a degree actually mean that you'll earn more, or is it that people who are smart and tend to get degrees are simply capable of earning more regardless of whether or not they choose to go to school?

Companies used to use IQ and aptitude tests to hire people, but "dat be raciss because black people perform worse", so now we use degrees as a proxy, except for programming where nobody actually gives a shit.

The only thing a CS degree does is give you something in common with other people (you both wasted $40k and four years on a piece of paper), and maybe help you get an internship if you're not stupid.

Taught myself C++ in a year during my 7th semester. Now in the process of learning python.
Hoping to land a job in programming because aeroplanes are fucking stupid.
T.aeronautical engineering student on his last semester.

>>55953411
1700 sq ft house, 15 min from city
$450/month mortgage

>>55953490
Try applying for Microsoft without a degree. Go ahead. Let me know if there are even any positions for programmers there that do not state explicitly that a degree is required.

>>55953513
Are you literally an Indian? Why do you keep using Microsoft as a benchmark for a programming position? You realize that this isn't 1998, right?

>>55953534
he's a cs-cuck just ignore him

>>55953490
yeah what this guy said. just watch some youtube videos and your'e good to go!

>>55953506
I can get that in Seattle for $2000 a month. $18000 extra per year, let's call it $25000 pre tax. An actual high quality house, not some shoddy wooden shack. Now where's the other $20000 coming from?

>>55953534
Then find any job listed on any job site with a salary of over 100k that does not list a degree as an explicit requirement.

>>55953553

>It took me four years and (probably) tens of thousands of dollars to learn what someone else can learn in a couple of months with the Internet
>I was (probably) stupid enough to pay money for this
>Now, in an effort to rationalize my terrible life choices, I have to invent strawmen on 4chan in order to try to shame others who have outperformed me

just go to /r9k/ already you gigantic retard

somebody explain the pure hatred and animosity towards CS on this site. no other STEM field gets this amount of shit and I don't understand.

>>55953583

I think you are about 17 years old and have never worked a day in your life lmao, that or you work some dead-end IT job making about $15 an hour and your primary duty is dealing with customers and restarting the printer for the ladies in the office

Take your shitty opinions back to Facebook faggot

>>55953608
>animosity
I think you've just got confirmation bias—half of this thread is in total disagreement

>>55953490
>$40k and four years on a piece of paper
american education everybody

>>55953676
On a piece of paper that will let you pay off that 40k in less than half a year.

>>55953630
Oh no, I have a proper high paying job in the tech industry. One that requires a degree.

>>55953709
we get that piece of paper in 3 years and less than 10k

>>55953560
I'm using bankrate's cost of living calculator.

Everything's cheaper, from a visit to the dentist, to lunch, to a repair call for my washing machine.

>>55953583
Here's the secret:

You know that job description with all the bells and whistles you need to have? Turns out that a lot of the time, you don't actually NEED what they say you need. It's more of a wishlist, and since HR people don't know how to write it up, you're stuck with every job description saying you need a Bachelor's Degree + 3 years experience for an entry level job.

>>55952148
He's not wrong though. My best guys are not degree holders. I graduated in '02 and essentially all the relavent things I learned went down the memory hole within a few years. Everything you need and use in the long run is hard won by bitter experience. College shields you from building that self-motivated autodidact will by giving you baby steps and guided work.

It used to matter less because we'd extensively work over the newbies and break their college habits, but these days I can hire a guy from Eastern Europe or India with twice the drive and half the "college education," who is going to perform at the same level out of the gate. Why would I bother with a US degree holder who may or may not bring results in the same time frame?

The only US candidates I look at seriously are the ones with a personal vouch from someone I trust or a public track-record of projects that I consider to be challenging. If I think they're autodidact enough I will bend heaven and earth to make sure we get them. If they also have a degree that's fine, better even, but not having a degree and having a portfolio of merit is leaps and bounds ahead of a mere paper-holder who thinks his time at Cal Tech was so profound that someone really must give him six figures and a pony for being so enlightened.

The old days are really over, the education system in this country and in most of the rest of the world are becoming too archaic to matter anymore. We're moving into a new and exciting global era where self-motivated kids from anywhere can build the skills to earn a good living without paying the college gate-keepers top dollar along the way. Yeah, I think that also means lower wages for some people at the same time, but on net it's a good thing for society at large.

Imagine your own kids at age 18 picking up a gig and never having to worry about loan debt or jerkoff college admins. It's beautiful.

>>55953746
Cost of living only makes sense if you are a consumerist who spends 100% of your income and never saves anything.

>>55953747
if you're gonna get a high paying job in the field without a degree, well then you better be pretty goddamn special.

>>55953744
And then either fight for H1B positions with Rajesh or stay in Europe and be stuck working for peanuts.

>>55953771
You factor in COL before you can even begin to calculate savings you mongoloid.

>>55953788
I have an Associate's Degree since that's all I could afford ("afford" as in I used grants since I was dirt poor). I'm hoping that it + a decent portfolio will be enough when I come time to apply.

>>55953798
get fine salaries here too
no reason to move to america if your own country is superior

>>55953803
COL isn't some magic single number that applies the same for every single person you mongoloid.

>>55953771
I guess I could skip the "living" part and just save my money.

Food and doctor's visits are for consumerists.

>>55953830
It's more than sufficient provided you have a work ethic. Don't listen to the FUD the NEETs here spread about how difficult it is to find work without such and such a degree. They have absolutely no motivation and can't build any because they live at home with their parents eating tendies and playing vidya.

If you drop the typical normie habits and invest yourself in a good niche, you'll be more than employable within a year of self-study. Combine that portfolio with your degree and you are in good shape to be looked at.

Just remember the most important battle ahead is making a good first impression. Work those social skills and dress like you want the job.

>>55953852
Apples cost 50% more in Dallas than in bumfuck, Kentucky? I guess that means I need a 50% higher salary to pay for all those apples!

>>55953360
>I'm sure; that's why software engineering is consistently ranked in the top 10 best occupational fields, both by pay and job satisfaction
software engineering is an old stale meme back when half of India wasn't ready to work for peanuts to churn out corporate code and specialization was needed due to low abstraction levels and complexity in programming. Have fun getting a first world salary with some shitskin in a third world country is doing the same job as you for a fraction of the price. See IBM and literally any large multinational. It's only going to get worse as more brogrammers start getting dumped into the jobmarket that hopped on the CS and SE bandwagon
>Statistically, outlier
Statistically not mentally retarded wageslaves that think life's choices are solely binary in nature where it's either work at mcdonalds or make trillions with your degree. I guess that qualifies as outlier though

>comparing specialized STEM degrees that write programs to SE
that's hilarious. As if someone with an actual STEM degree can't bear to comprehend some code monkey logic applicable to their field.
> Flunk out?
No. Just clarifying the difference between code monkeys and actual engineers, analysts, and scientists. It's comedy gold what one macbook and a flavor of the month language will do to the ego of a pseudo intellectual

>>55953894
The OP wasn't asking about just finding a job. The question was about a decent salary.

>>55953844
Just because COL for a nigger that likes gold chains and diamonds is far higher than the average doesn't mean COL is irrelevant you pavement ape.

Basic COL, the cost of eating a few meals a day, putting a roof over your head, having clothes on your back, and getting to and from where you work is ALWAYS a factor and in most of the hip tech cities in the US it's a major factor. Even frugal living in SF is an order of magnitude more expensive than living well in Dallas.

>>55953894
Thank you, I know this is what I want to do in life. No matter what, I'll find a way to get my foot in the door. I know the question is about a decent salary, but getting my foot in the door is more important to me in the next couple of years.

>>55953958
If you live on 20k a year in Dallas and 40k a year in SD then the COL factor is 200%. That doesn't mean that a 80k salary in Dallas is equivalent to a 160k salary in SF.

>>55940696
It depends on a couple of questions:

1) Do you live in or are you willing to move to a place with high demand for developers?
2) Do you enjoy programming and care about it enough to try to not be shit at it and to have serious hobby projects?

In areas with high demand, many employers will overlook a lack of a degree if you know what the hell you're doing and can make shit happen.

If you answered "no" to either of those questions, you're going to have a hard time. In places where supply outstrips demand, employers can be choosy and will demand degrees since there's 50 candidates lined up right behind you. On the other hand if you're not passionate about the profession and cannot demonstrate capability, not even the most direly understaffed company will want anything to have anything to do with you.

>>55953947
A decent salary follows from having a job and being proficient at said job. If the job is incredibly menial it just means you go back to what I said above, which is building that portfolio and applying for another job.

At no point in the last two generations has showing up to work or a degree meant entitlement to any particular salary. That requires getting shit done and having a track record of getting shit done well.

>>55953929
somebody flunked out

>>55954066
if you repeat it enough it will become true and you can add a tally to your internet arguments won list

>>55954007
Check your assumptions you dumb nigger. The COL in Dallas is less than half that of SF even if we're pretending you're a lifeless workaholic who eats lentils and wears thrift shop clothes.

Furthermore there's FAR less than a 2x multiplier on salaries between the two for the same skilled programmer. I hire in both Dallas and Austin, plenty of those I hire out of california are only stepping down in salary by a fraction of that.

Only the top tier programmers in SF are making enough to save more money after COL. That's probably less than 1% of those employed.

>>55940972
>>55947814
Yep this. $3500/mo gets you a shoebox anywhere in the SF bay area unles you're ok with living in the shitty part of SF that's perpetually foggy and cold and has nothing close by. Even then you're looking at $1500/mo+ for a that same shoebox.

Other expenses are increased, too. Food is much more expensive, though the selection and quality is far better than what you'd find in most of the US (outside of big cities).

>>55953041
You sound bitter, lmao. Sounds like you were never able to break into the industry.

>>55954007
A job that pays 80k in Dallas isn't necessarily going to pay 160k in SF.

>>55954066
Found the asshurt NEET with a useless degree.

>>55945418
>just problem solving
More like systematic breaking down of giant problems into progressively smaller problems until they're bite-size and then chain solving each one to produce a solution.

It takes a certain way of thinking that most people can't wrap their heads around and isn't taught at all in schools (no, being highly capable at math doesn't translate over into software development skills at all).

Really, software engineers are no different than the engineers that design and build the insanely complex mechanical devices that power modern life. Software is a machine too, and because it has no physical limitations it's often far more complex than any physical machine could even come close to approaching.

>>55954253
Well said. Have a (You).

>>55954122
If you're interested, in reality I make it a hobby to spit on the pseudo-CS/SE/whatever-meme-they-name-themselves. I have an actual STEM degree and can run circles around the codemonkey understanding of computer science concepts.
When I program it's for enterprise critical work not for some throwaway spaghetti code that has to work for a while. I watch SE come and go like disposable wipes, getting paid pennies for their work. It's the most satisfying feeling knowing I didn't fall for some pseudo intellectual degree with no future.
Everytime some SE trash asks me about the huge gap between their salary and mine I tell them that it's the difference between CS/SE and actual STEM. Programming in 2016 is a tool, not an occupation

>>55954253
>insanely complex
That's why a shitskin can do it for 1K out of an unairconditioned internet cafe. That's how insanely complex writing software is. Meanwhile you don't see shitskins doing actual engineering of any sort.

Maybe the "insanely complex" meme would have worked two decades ago when hardware constraints, architectural differences, and overall programming abstraction was low.
>>55954318
next time just hit the upvote or like button ok?

>>55954481
then why is software development in this country still very lucrative? if pajeet can do it for cheap, then why are white dudes being hired right out of school for these respectable salaries left and right still?

>>55954481
I don't know what field you're talking about (enterprise?), but I work developing software for the mass consumer (iOS) and in this field and platform, outsourcing isn't a thing for any company serious about the iOS version of their app because outsourced iOS apps are insanely shitty and are a good way to drive away users, and that's bad because that's where all the money in mobile is at.

Android ports get outsourced a lot because there's no money to be made there and that user base is known for its lack of discrimination in regards to quality. Every company I've worked for or have friends working in has the policy of sparing no expense on the iOS version and then having a team of Indians make a shitty copy for the Android version.

What this says to me is that a smart programmer pursues leading edge markets where user experience matters. Of course you're not going to make jack shit if what you're building is enterprise crap for some shitty company in bumfuck nowhere.

>>55954481
>Meanwhile you don't see shitskins doing actual engineering of any sort.
Indians are way over-represented in all forms of engineering in the US. You have no idea what you're talking about.

>>55954553
>then why are white dudes being hired right out of school for these respectable salaries left and right still?
they are being hired but with a pajeet salary and treatment being the norm. Typically, only top institution graduates that find a niche of their field are the ones with a first world pay and job titles that grant them respect and job security. SE and even what garbage institutions insultingly label as CS is saturated. These fields have become devalued because of the bloated job market and will continue to decline as:
-the graduate pool grows from the bandwagon of millennials in 1st world countries
-2nd world countries continue developing into mature economies with workers that don't want to shovel cow shit for a living
-abstraction in programming continues to grow (it gets easier), machine resources become cheaper, infrastructure improves for outsourcing
you can keep going with the list

>>55954389
I majored in applied mathematics and I'm paid marginally better than a CS grade. Not enough to swing my cock in their face though.

>>55953844
Dummie you can save even more with lower COL.

>>55954711
coudln't an argument be made that abstraction actually increases complexity? (in some ways)? Some of these systems are huge.

>>55954653
>What this says to me is that a smart programmer pursues leading edge markets where user experience matters.
but that involves a lot of vine swinging overall. Why suffer with chasing the latest niche when you can get a degree from a 1st world country that is capable of retaining its value? Why lump yourself in with the growing garbage in SE/CS and then work extra hard to differentiate yourself by chasing leading edge? Seems like a lot more work

>>55954110
Also you get assraped by fed income, even IF after cost of loving, and any state income tax, the take home pay were the same... You'll have to pay more to uncle sam because your "income is higher", aside from deductables, the IRS wont give a fuck you have a higher COL and you'll be at a higher tax rate possibly.

>>55954711
I help with hiring at a company in a tech hub and it's damn near impossible to find good software engineers. Lots of interviews and very few hires. Definitely not experiencing a surplus like what you're suggesting.

>>55954134
Also cost of living only covers basics, everything else also costs even more.

>>55954696
yes, you're absolutely right. They're a small minority in actual engineering where professional work matters

>>55954770
Because I enjoy making software. It's not just my job, it's my hobby, and quite frankly with my 30s sitting right around the corner I don't particularly care to piss away 4-8 years of life changing course. Even if I did, the industry I'd like to enter (aerospace) is damn near impossible to break into based on what I can gather. EE is a possible field of interest but I haven't explored it enough to know.

Perhaps it's a luxury to be able to love my work and get a fat paycheck too but it's what I seek.

>>55954751
>coudln't an argument be made that abstraction actually increases complexity? (in some ways)? Some of these systems are huge.

for the sake of this argument?
No, because abstraction makes it easier to build extremely complex systems without dedicating the extra man resources to it. It makes SE and CS way easier in many aspects when compared to a decade or two ago. Back then those positions were highly valued because of lower abstraction (among other factors like lack of professionals for a variety of systems, architectures, languages, protocols etc). There are many ignorant people that understand these fields from a superficial level and still think CS and SE are in the same state that they were decades ago.

In general?
Yes. Ofcourse. The more abstract the elements you build with the greater the complexity of the overall piece if you were to break it all down.

>>55954804
>They're a small minority in actual engineering where professional work matters
Not at all. They're ubiquitous at all levels considering the size of their presence in the country.

>>55954838
>Because I enjoy making software. It's not just my job, it's my hobby
if that's true then congrats. Can't really ask for more than getting a decent pay for something you like doing. It's probably not worth wasting time to dive into another field at this point like you said. Just keep surfing the right niches and you will be set.

>>55954938
>They're ubiquitous at all levels considering the size of their presence on this planet

>>55940696
University is not necessary if you're not retarded
University will not land you a job if you're retarded

>>55948408

Most accurate statement here.

>>55949004
Yo

>>55953771
>>55953896
for a university man you sure are fucking retarded.

>>55949004
.......are full of shit.

>>55940742
100k is fine for me lol.
I'm fucking poor.

>>55955026
No, you're retarded if you think that a 55k salary in bumfuck nowhere will let you save more than a 100k salary in a tech hub. Unless you are a consumerist sheep who spends 100% of your income so you can live in a giant McMansion by yourself you'll be saving much more with the higher paying job.

>>55940742

>100k/year
>pajeet tier

fuck off

I am in school for EE and I just can't take it any more, it's not even too hard for me it's just that I have no long term motivation. My passion is in software development. What the fuck do I do

>>55951890
>there are subhuman niggers who will believe this

how pol of you

>>55955302
learn programming on the side, you can still get a software job with an EE degree

I don't think I have it in me to finish my degree though.

>>55955702
Or go with a synergistic combo like EE along with embedded software dev

>>55955892
meant to reply to:
>>55955702

>>55940696

Most companies value experience over university credentials. BUT, having those credentials does increase your earning power.

>>55955892
it could be a good idea to drop out and do what you're passionate about instead, you're more likely to be successful at doing something you enjoy, and you'll probably still have the option of finishing the degree later on if you were to change your mind. your time on earth is limited so if you feel that it would be a waste to finish the degree then it could be better to not finish it.

>>55941119
>My uni friends make $200k usd right after they graduated.

if you're gonna lie, lie big

>>55940742
>100k isn't a lot of money
child or daddys credit card detected

>>55956644
100k is medium tier entry level for CS graduates.

>>55956663
very dependant on location. not everyone is in san francisco and that is a pretty large amount for a fresh grad.

don't be an elitist fuckhead now.

>>55956663
its still a lot of money

you cunts forget most people make 30-70k

>>55940696
TRUE=NO
FALSE=YES
MIDDLE=NO

>>55953600
>being this mad about your existence as an uneducated fraud

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inferiority_complex

>>55940972
Raise a family

>tfw

>>55954253
That is exactly how I think about my current career/hobbies, and how I like to think in general. Wouldn't hurt to add another skill to the bag of tricks, at least.

>>55956927
This is /g/. Everyone here is gay or a childless NEET.

>>55940972
eat mcdonalds and live in a single bedroom cartonbox if NYC/SF/TYO

>>55957099
Almost everyone here has mental issues.

>>55957099
thats pol

>>55957099
I thought normie gays raise a family roo.

>All of my CS professors copy and paste shit from the internet for our lectures and go back to their offices to work on their research.

Fuck me

>>55945274
>programming is a job
programming is a tool and different fields use it for different things

>>55940975
How about &=

Its not necessary, but you will have to start working at a level one help desk, n out making much, and literally asking people if they have restarted their computer all day. Odds are you will work that for a couple years, learning along the way until you start get into networking or security to make more. I personally think the current state of college doesn't provide people with much, most people I meet with a degree don't know a whole lot unless they have experience.

TL;DR it's not necessary, and might help you enter directly into a higher paying job, but you get debt. Pros and cons

>>55955302
Switch to Computer Engineering, at my college at least it has most of the same courseload at the lower levels, then the rest of your time you can do all the software classes