The unanswerable question: full body or split for natties?

>>42389919
Full body for beginners, then move to U/L or PPL and work out 4 or 6 times per week.

>>42389931
fpbp

>>42389931
btw I shouldn't even have to say it, but
>work out 4 or 6 times per week WITH A RECOVERABLE WORK VOLUME
in short, lift intensely, lift often, but don't go too often for extra high volume like you would on a bodybuilding split.

>>42389919
full body obviously

full body routines have you pressing, pulling and squatting 3 times a week. a 6 day split has you doing these only twice a week and then after you've done your compounds you spend an hour doing useless isolation exercises

>>42389982
But what if I want to push more

>>42389992
>use moar weight
>do some fucking conditioning
>or just some cardio if you're feeling tired

>>42389931
I came here to post this. It's objectively correct.

>>42389992
as in push press? just do push press instead of The Regular Press and eat more i guess

>>42389982
this is one of the most retarded things I've read here. Way to simplify shit you humongous retard

>>42390070
>>42389998
Well I mean prioritizing bench and OHP over squat and deadlift.

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>>42389982
>useless isolation exercises
>falling for the SS/SL meme

>>42390098
It's a bit complex. You could increase bench and press volume, and drop squat and deads volume (you should already be dling at low volume anyway), but you risk not recovering properly with your upper body and peaking up your squats instead.
To do it right, you'd have to check how you're recovering, how much volume you've done lately and how much you can do, and in short plan a whole mesocycle towards your bench and press.

>>42389919
Split is always better.

Full body is for "I don't have enough time" Netflix addicts. Almost never enough volume/sets/attention to each body part and you can't do more than 3-4 days /week

Splits are good as long as it's something like PPL and you go 5-6×/week. Each muscle needs to be hit a MINIMUM of twice a week.

Split if you can go to the gym 4-7 times a week
Full body if you can go 2-4 times a week

Beginners should do FB though

>>42389937
>WITH A RECOVERABLE WORK VOLUME
im pretty sure this is where my problem is. Post an example routine if you have the time.

>>42390540
>example routine
Here's my PPL, goes PPLPPLx, lifting 6/week. There are better examples around, ofc, but this one should show you how working out often but without very high volumes goes.

>Push
Bench Press, 3 sets (I do 1x3,1x5,1x8 on the main lifts but any 3 heavy as fuck sets would do, obv.)
OHP, 3 sets (as above)
Lying Triceps Extensions, 3x12
Abs, 1 set AMAP (it gets boring)

>Pull
Power (or other variation) Clean, 5x3
Deadlift, 1x3 but only on the first Pull of the week
Chin ups, 3 sets (ideally 1x3 weighted,1x5 weighted, 1xAMAP bodyweight)
Rows, 2x12
Dips 3x12

>Legs
Front Squats, 6 sets (2-3x3,2x5,1-2x8, could switch to back squats ofc)
RDL 3x5
GHR 3x12
Abs 1 set

>also, every time for that low volume/high frequency hit:
bicep curls 2x12
side raises 2x12
band facepull 1 setl

PHUL is GOAT

Test what suits you. I make better gains with full body workout 3x a week.

>>42390701
For natties?
GOAT, but only if you build it like a TM variation.

>not doing a west side upper lower split to maximize athletic qualities

>>42390671
thanks man!

>>42389931
>>42390455
So should I start PPL after I've plateau'd from a full body routine like SS or SL?

Also what makes brosplit a meme compared to PPL and Upper/lower body?

>>42390835
>should I start PPL after I've plateau'd from a full body routine
Yes, or build PPL as a 'for beginners' routine, doing just 1 or 2 exercises per day and overloading the linear progression on the usual 3x5. But if you have to go to the gym just to do some squats and go away it feels like a waste of time.
In the end what matters is the work you do over time, you could take SS and break it down into 6 days, but that would eat a lot of spare time for no additional gain.
>what makes brosplit a meme
high volume/low frequency when you hit a muscle 1/week for a fuckload of sets. It leads to nogains unless you're 'chemically enhanced'.

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>>42390671
excuse me, sir. what is GHR?

>>42389931
>training anything less than every day just for the sake of it

>>42391238
Glute-ham raise. Maybe you know it as a Nordic Curl? It's a bodyweight leg curl.

>>42391238
>state of /fit/

Back/chest/legs/chest/back/off/off

>>42389931
Fpbp

what about 4day push pull?

>>42391382
What about bicep, tricep and shoulder?

>>42389931
can you post a PPL for intermediate lifters?

>>42390671
workouts seem a bit short, huh? I'm not too experienced so why are they so short?

>>42391703
On the same day they get worked with your compounds. Chest/tris, back/bis, do shoulders on leg day or devote an off day.

Always do splits. Starting with a full body routine is one of the biggest memes of all time. No one can actually offer a legitimate explanation as to why beginners do a full body routine. It's because there is no good reason

>>42389982
good luck getting 4 plate bench without isolating triceps

>>42391250
Are you the same faggot from last night's CBT thread?
You are retarded if you think you can make gains whilst training daily.

>>42390671
why not up the volume of each session but lift 4x a week?

the gym is a 25 minute drive I don't want to so that shit 6x a week

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>>42391798

>>42389919
just inject you faggot

>>42391841
You understand absolutely fucking nothing about building muscle.
Lurk more you retarded faggot

>>42391909
watch some Eric bugenhagen you fucking gde

>>42389919

How many days per week will you go to the gym?

3 = full body
6 = split

>>42389931
sheeit nigga i just went right into ppl as a beginner am i fucked/retarded?

>>42392003
>as a beginner am i fucked
no

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I do this, every other day no matter what. In and out the door in 45 mins. Enough to exhaust me and give me a pump but doesn't absolutely wreck my day. Honestly should add more back and leg stuff, but I'm hesitant to make it take longer.

Any input?

>>42389982
>pulling 3 times a week
>chest 3 times a week
>all delt heads 3 times a week
>hamstrings 3 times a week

Not a single full body routine does this.

Pro tip: Bench and OHP doing ULxULxx and suddenly you're benching AND ohping 2x per week. Wow! Isn't that just crazy?

>>42389919
>>42389931 is solid advice, but you can adjust what he says a little. i took nsuns 5/3/1 (5-day) and changed the accessories up a little, with the result that M/W are full-body days that strongly emphasise the lower body, Tu/Th are upper days, and F is full-body

the point is that you should try and get in adequate volume at an adequate intensity without taxing yourself too much. UL and PPL splits are an easy way to do this, but full-body routines that have you going 4+ times a week to the gym can be made to work—you just need to manage your fatigue

>>42392081
>Not a single full body routine does this.
er

>>42392003
Was using a derogatory racial slur and a swear word in this post really necessary? Kids browse these websites you know. You could have said "I went right into ppl as a beginner, did I mess up?" and nothing would have changed. I get that you're an angsty teen going through puberty but that doesn't excuse the foul language.

>>42392121
this website is 18+ only

>>42391756
eric said so

>>42392051
it's not terrible, but
1. why bother curling instead of doing more chin-ups?
2. a lot of people find shrugs to be a waste of time; something like a snatch pull, a farmer's walk, or a weighted carry would be a better idea if you're trying to get bang-for-your-buck. (snatch pulls would be my suggestion.)
3. direct ab work is more useful than you'd think and you could add in some lateral raises. you could superset this with the other stuff

ultimately, if you want to make more progress in the longer run, you'll need more volume and frequency, but cross that bridge when you stall

>>42392162
not that guy, but vertical pulls don't grow biceps as effectively as curls do
nevertheless, as a noob compounds should 100% be the priority

>>42392081
Is this bait?

>>42390540
I started working out four days in a row recently and what I found best so far is one working set per lift.

The major advantage to doing only one set is you can go batshit insane with intensity on that one set and not hurt yourself because it's easier to use good form when you're not saving any energy for the next set.

In order to make up for the lost volume, you do more variations. So for example for chest, normally I'd just do bp 3x5 and call it a day. Instead I do bp 1x1RM, db bp 1xAMRAP and dips either 1xAMRAP or weighted 1x1RM. It's a little less volume but more variety, frequency and intensity.

>>42392121
lmao this nigga is crazy

>>42392222
checked. you're right—but if he's doing A and B three times a week, he'd only be doing 3 sets of pulling in any plane (namely, the chin-ups on B; deadlift is more of a hip extension)

& i probably should've suggested rows over chin-ups in A, but it depends on how much he cares about his biceps

>>42392274
*but he'd be doing either 3 or 6 sets of pulling in any plane

>>42392274
yeah fair, I agree with you, if he wants to do curls they should be a the end of either of the days and the third exercise in A should either be a row or a vertical pull

>>42391794
I bench 171kg without triceps isolations

>>42391941
>t. Dyel

>>42391909
Mfw been doing PPL 7 days a week being natty with amazing gains and not feeling tired or exhausted through the day. Guess I'm not human.

>>42392345
>amazing gains
Guaranteed dyel

>>42392353
No need to be triggered that you're doing your meme routines with 3 days rest per week and not seeing gains, then coming on an indonesian cotton farming board and telling yourself everyone who does something else than you is lying.

>>42392345
post body and stats

>>42392345
>half an hour has passed
>still no stats
>still no photo
>'''''amazing gains''''

If we assume a natty works at least 30 hour week, has friends, hobbies and a love life go full body

Enhanced neets can do what they want

>>42391756
Because with that routine you're lifting 6/week, workouts HAVE to be sort of short if you're doing that natty, both for ease of recovery and to maximise the hormonal response to the training.
>>42391819
You can do that, you'll end up with an UL split of some sort. That routine is just an example for low volume/high frequency.
>>42391722
Just take the routine I posted and re-arrange it so the first PPL of the week has more volume, and the second PPL has higher weights.
Like, take all the 'main' exercises (bench, press, chin ups if you want to, front squats or whatever other variation) - instead of 1x3,1x5,1x8 you could do 3x5,2x8 on the first day and just 1x3 (driving up the weights) on second day. Or 2x5,2x8 and 2x3, just keep the total volume per week the same, it's a weekly mesocycle.
Of course deadlift go on the second pulling day, and for squats maybe do 4x5,2x8 on the first day and 2x3,2x8 on the second. 4x5 squats and drop sets is going to suck tho.
The rest can stay more or less the same, to keep thing simple.
Of course as an intermediate you should modify the routine based on how you can recover, if you end up using this pls use it just as a starting template and customize it to your own needs.

Upper body twice a week, some legs once a week.

This works best for me long term, with a job and shit to do all day.

>>42390671

Can I ask what kind of weight your are pushing with that routine? My problem also is recovering but when I see the amount of volume you describe then it literally looks like 30-40% of what I do. Again, my problem is recovery, yet I can't believe I would grow on a routine like the one you posted.

>>42391788
I always thought it was to build a decent level of muscle mass through heavy compound movements that activate all the large muscles and allows you to quickly gain strength in the beginning?

Usually you stick to a beginner program with heavy compounds for 6-9 months and then you switch to something more advanced.

Rate pls

PULL
-Pull-ups/lat pull downs 4x12
-Hammer curls 3x12
-Seated rows 3x12
-Isolation curl 3x12
-Rear delt flies 3x12
-Preacher curls 3x12
-Straight arm lat pulldown 3x12
-Roman chair hyperextenders 3x12
-Leg raises 3x12

PUSH
-Bench 4x10
-Tricep pulldown 3x12
-Side lat raise 3x12
-OHP 3x10
-Dips 3x12
-Flies 3x12
-Tricep overhead extension 3x12
-Incline dumbbell 3x10
-Shrugs 3x12

LEGS
-Squat 4x10
-Calf Raises 4x12
-Hamstring curls 3x12
-Leg extension 3x12
-Leg raises 3x12
-Oblique side bends 3x12
-Rope ab crunches 3x20
-Decline sit ups 3x20

>>42389919
Whichever one fits into your schedule better. If you have lots of freetime a few times a week do full body. If you only have a little free time but basically every day, do a split. If you're neet, do whichever you like better. The best program for you is the one you'll actually follow.

>>42393243
150kgsx3 back squat before starting that routine, now: front squat 100x3 (weaker than it should be, I'm focusing on it for now), bench 115x3, ohp 80x3, deadlift 165x3. Previous experience: SS, then the TM for a couple of months, tried the Advanced UL TM to slow down the massacre, it was good but not fun at all, now this.
In theory, if you drop the volume you get some peaking out of your old training, so if you were to switch to a low-volume routine you should not only feel fresher, but also get some gains in the process.

>>42389931
>6 times a week training
Do you have nothing else to do?
This is retarded.

>>42393566
The routine I posted doesn't take very long.
6 sets on the big lifts, a couple assistance exercises, and 5 sets of 'beach muscles', it takes 1h or just slightly more.

>>42393566
Typical PPL programs and splits are like an hour a day. That's very convienient if you have a gym near your work or on the way home. If you work until 5, how are you supposed to get enough volume to progress while lifting? Sure one you could do on weekend, but that's still twice a week that you wouldn't be leaving the gym until after 8.

>>42393566
>people who choose to prioritise things differently to me are retarded

>>42393734
>people who overtrain to the point of not allowing their muscles to recover, preventing them from having successful workouts or building muscle properly are retarded
Yes that is correct

>>42393509

Thanks will try. Looks like we are of similar strength, +-5% depending on the excercise. My problem is, I barely had any strength progress for roughly 2 years now but still gained muscle, currently sitting around 96kg @ 1,81m with 16-17% bf. I'm gonna cut down to 12% and then try this "low volume" stuff.

>>42389919
It doesnt matter as long as you train each muscle 2-3 times a week. 3 is optimal and can be done with full body and some splits. and a program with enough volume

>>42391318
>Pretending he knew and wasn't waiting for someone to ask

>>42393890
>he thinks that muscles can't recover within 72 hours
>he probably also thinks that you cant squat every day
>he's never visited Bulgaria

>>42392327
If you're over 200lbs that means nothing.

>>42393413
is this b8

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>>42389931
>>42389937
>>42390671
oi, am I doing too much shit?

>>42393946
>>42393946
Not the guy your arguing, but people who squat heavy everyday work to that capacity over years. If you think you can start out with that then youre retarded.

>>42392345
been thinking of doing ppl x7days
pls post body so I can decide

>>42392051
swap out curls for barbell rows

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>>42389919
full body for beginner, then do bulgarian

>>42389931
>doing a laundry list of pump and fluff excersises
PPL is a meme

>>42389931
>>42389937
>>42389998

Ppl or ul on a long term cut? Like 4 month cut. Pls respond.

>>42394211
Possibly, but if you're gaining without stalling that's good. You can lower the volume when you stall, and keep on gaining.

>>42394287
>pump and fluff exercises
What would you take away from >>42390671 ?
The arms everyday thing is just pump, but the rest is legit.

>>42394302
Both would be very similar in volume per week, choose based on how much time you have and how far the gym is.

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This FUCKING MANLET is trainign twice a week doing full body routine full of MEME LIFTS yet he's stronger than you with 700lbs tb dl and bigger than you at lean 190lbs at 5'5 and basically you're FUCKING STUPID
find out how for just $47 (-10% with outalpha promocode)

>>42389919
I do PLPS. Push, legs, pull, shoulders. I don't like doing upper body back to back days and I don't like doing shoulders/chest back to back so this is my routine. It suits me well, I'm almost at 2/3/4/5 for reps, my OHP is close at 215 but my bench is only at 295, I'm 5'10 195lbs btw.

>>42394365
i would cut out everything and pick 2 or 3 lifts i want to improve in and do those everyday. you still have too much going on here, you need a greater focus on what you want to improve on.

and off that topic, i would make abs something to train everyday, just for like 10 minutes, since they are very resilient to training

>>42394217
>implying
(you're obviously right)

I recently switched from SS to a PPL routine. How does this sound to you guys ? (i also train abs each day)

P:
BB BP 5x3
OHP 5x3
DB inc. BP 5x3
Rope pushdown 12x3
Skullcrushers 8x3
Shrugs 15x3

P:
Bent over row 5x3
Pullups 12x3
Seated rows 10x3
Face-pulls 12x3
Curls 10x3
Hammercurls 8x3
Farmer walks 6 laps of 15 meters

L:
Squats 5x3
Deadlifts 5x3
Quad curls 12x3
Hammstring curls 10x3
Calf raises 25x3

>>42389931
>PPL
What's PPL?

I've read upper body/lower body split is the way to go, obviously autistically splitting it so much that you only do one group once per week is bad, but training each group every 48 h is good as you give it the just time to recover.

Beginners should go full body of course Until they can go really serious.

>>42395777
Answearing only because i checked 'em

It's a Push/Pull/Legs split

Has anyone tried Coolcicada's PPL? Been seeing it on /fit/ a little recently but not with much feedback.

>>42394287
What is Bulgarian?

>>42396054
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWOm-1mIE6A

>>42392345
post your body and either hide the thread if you're dyel or enjoy the salt/praise you receive if you're not
it's a win/win mate

>>42395568
Tt goes SetsxReps, so 3x12, not 12x3.
Doing 3x5 Bench Press and OHP the same day is very difficult. I'd reccomend having a Push Day A/B. A being heavy bench and light OHP, and B being vice versa.
Instead of 3x12 Pullups, do 3x3-5 weighted pullups/chinups.
3x5 Squats and Deadlifts has the same issue as 3x5 Bench/OHP. Either split them A/B, do 1x5 Deadlifts, or do Deadlifts on Pull.
This is all preference tho, do what feels good.

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>>42396339
>Doing 3x5 Bench Press and OHP the same day is very difficult.
you are like a little baby. watch this

>>42389982
I was squatting and rowing 3-4x a week on my modified PPLxPPL(x), it's not hard to throw in a lift on a random day if you want
squat was a mere 305 for a single but my strict bent over row got up to 225 for a triple. All of this over the course of around 8 months from only having wrestled before. Strength gains were slow but I feel as though hypertrophy was pretty good
I miss it, I'm on TM now. I feel that fullbody is better for strength gains than something like a PPL, but PPL is superior in hypertrophy

>>42392121
chill out nigga

>>42389931
When is one no longer a beginner?

>>42393413

>9 workouts per session on PPL

Mother fucker do you ever leave the gym? This routine is absolute shit.

>>42395568
>Pullups 12x3

Switch to weighted pullups

>>42397019
>he doesn't spend at least an hour in the gym

>>42393413
garbage.
this is literally a laundry list of pump and fluff excersises. you have no focus and you will make garbage progress. what the hell is your goal with this? it's all over the place. get on a real program and educate yourself on proper programing.

Could you do a full body on Monday, Wednesday and Friday then do a accessory day on Saturday?

I would like to train more than 3 times a week

>>42397793
>accessory day

>>42397793
you can do anything you want as long as you can recover

>>42397804
What do most people doing 3x a week bw routines do? I was thinking of just doing HIIT on my off days and doing nothing on sunday

>>42393413
I'll be positive and critique some of your post
At the very least you should have some heavy lifts, maybe switching off between 4x10 and 3x5. I'd also recommend some sort of deadlift for back/leg day, bb. Weighted chins would work wonders too if you added them in. Should also do your compounds first and then accessories after; you have tricep pull down before your incline and overhead press. It'd be better off switched around.
Also, 3x12 lateral raises isn't enough to stimulate much to any growth in your delts. Gotta hit them with insane volume if you want to see results.
Overall, not too good of a program. You'll definitely make gains on this, but it'll be lacking, especially in strength. Hypertrophy should be good, though.

>>42397876
Currently doing TM, I add in a shit ton of volume after the compounds because I'm used to it and want to still make faster muscle gains.
After my compounds (depending on the day), I usually add in shrugs, chin ups, bent over rows, underhand lat pull downs, curls, some OHP variation, lateral raises, and face pulls. About to hit 4th week, no stalling at all so far.
I do, however, spend 2-3 hours at least in the gym because of the accessories. To each their own, I guess

>>42398004
hmmm how much assistance work?

i want to do TM in september when im leaning bulking all the way until 2nd semester but im not sure where to put in extra back sets, rear delts, bi's, lat delts...

maybe throw in 2-3 sets of curls on "monday"
3 sets of lat raises on any day where i press
3 sets of face pulls on "wed"
3 sets of db row on "fri"

hoping it wont take more than maybe 1:30 hours cuz i got studying/partying/chilling to do

>>42391909
Do you even know what ppl is?

>>42396967
When you can't just lift and increase the weight the next time, but need slightly more complex programming. It means volume fluctuations during the week, and weekly instead of daily gains.

>>42391257
Oh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up!

>>42398852

5'8 started from auswitchz

OHP 40kg
Bench 60kg
Squat 85kg
Dead 110kg

Is this too low to stall? Ive stalled and deloaded about 5 times, been stuck here for a few months. Possible im just bad genetics and should move on to intermediate?

>>42398653
I have usually 6 extra exercises (varies from 3-4 sets of 5-8 or 8-10) after my main compounds, I'd recommend picking a couple of muscle groups you want to bring up and do 2-3 exercises for each of them (except maybe for chest or legs since that'll hinder progress). I've been doing 10x20 for lateral raises, takes 6-8 minutes normally and I've seen some bretty good delt gains, could try that out too
delts make them melt, meng

>>42389931
>PPL
cmon

>>42400205
How much do you weight?
It's almost sure that you aren't eating enough.
Are you involved in a weight-category based sport? Otherwise there's no excuse, just fucking eat more.
It's better to switch to an intermediate routine sooner rather than later if you don't have a coach, to avoid potential injuries, but there's a limit to that.
You reach that limit when you are eating so much that you can't eat more.
Btw, your lean optimal weight for strength sports should be around 85kgs. That's for elite roided up athletes your height, you'll probably never reach it, but it's a good benchmark to keep in mind.

>>42394542
That's a great idea if you're going to a meet or are a pro.
Which lifts would you focus on, as an average gym goer that doesn't have the same pressure to pr?

>>42393566
>spending 6 out of the 168 hours in a week working out is retarded and means you have nothing else to do

>>42389919
3 day full body for beginners

4 day upper/lower for intermediates

6 day push/pull/legs for advanced

>>42397964
Not OP, but how many sets and reps would you recommend for raises? Been doing 4x10, is that reasonable?

>>42390671
what could I substitute the cleans and dips with?

>>42400392
clean pulls (or snatch pulls or deadlifts performed explosively) and close-grip bench presses, respectively

>>42400289
Thank you anon. I guess its almost definitely not eating enough. Currently 69kg. Agh eating is hard

>>42396339
Thanks man !+

Serious question to people who think that once you're a few years in you should lift 4-5 times a week:

Do you think this is sustainable for a natural?

Do you think that lifting heavy for an hour every work day allows you to go on with your life?

And once you hit a 200 kg deadlift, do you think you're fresh the next morning and ready to go to work and then squat heavy in the evening?

Seriously, does anyone have experience doing this while maintaining a life outside of fitness?


Myself, I have a full time job, a wife (and now a kid for a few weeks). I can't imagine being performant in every sense of the word (solving the problems I need at work, going to get groceries and coming back to do chores) if I killed myself in the gym almost every day.

And working out 2 times a week hitting most of my body is the best compromise, which allows me to progress indefinitely.

>>42389931
When arent you a beginner anymore?

>>42400553
Pls eat.

SS

>>42400883
Already answered here >>42398852

>>42400804
You have to keep volume low, but it's possible.
Never kill yourself, but pace your training and train often.
Right now you train 2/w, what if you had the same sets spread out over 3 days for each day?
Same workload over the week, same progress (probably?), harder logistics to get your ass to the gym (but as an adult you can find a fix), but you'll recover faster and will never have to deal with extreme fatigue.

how does this split look:

A: squat, deadlift, row, curl
B: bench, lat pulldown, ohp, tricep ext

5x5 on first three, 3x8 on last on each. 4 times a week, ABxABxx.

Push+Quads/Pull+Hammies split 6 times a week

>>42400927
Alright. I just cant seem to increase my bench, i'm stuck on 70kg 3sets of 5reps. Send help

This board is fucking insane, no one can do anything and I mean anything without someone else telling them they are fucking deluded. How is anyone meant to learn anything from this

>>42389919
>Not splitting per limb
>not doing left arm Mondays, right arm Tuesday, left pec Wednesday, right pec Thursday, right leg Fridays, left leg Saturdays and dick day Sunday

>>42401167
Fitness is very simple. You lift with exercises that hit the whole body, increasing the volume every week with more sets and/or weight. You eat at a surplus. And you get plenty of sleep.

Thats 99.9% of fitness. The only 0.1% is what /fit/ shitposts about 24/7. Everyone shitposts their program works because they all do following the above principles, and says everyone else is wrong because those are programs they dont use.

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>>42401167
It's almost like you have to decide on your own what is best for you by doing proper research and trial and error.

>>42401112
Is your form good? Can you grind out reps or it's all do or die?
Are you eating enough and recovering right? How much do you weight?
And what program are you on, is it SS?

>>42401112
Do more weight for less reps/sets

Or less weight for more reps/sets

In other words do something different

>>42401077
would really appreciate some help here... SL does not allow enough recovery time anymore. so i tried to put together something that hits main muscle groups twice a week on 4 times a week routine. only thing i am a bit worried about is having row and lat pulldown on separate days as they hit similar muscle groups, but from what i understand the mechanics are quite different, right? and putting row to B would make it too unbalanced in terms time at least, if not overall intensity.

>>42389919
I have no idea why this thread got so huge when the answer it's very simple, and it depends on how much time you're willing to invest, like this:
- 3 days = Full Body
- 4 days = Upper Lower
- 5 days = Upper Lower Push Pull Legs
- 6 days = Push Pull Legs Push Pull Legs

>>42401297
If you're worried, just skip rows the second time per week and lat pulls the first time per week, or do light weight/high reps that day.

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>>42392121
b8

>>42389931
What does U/L and PPL stand for?

>>42401383
upper/lower or push/pull/legs splits.

PPL is fucking dogshit because everyone just makes their own and it's just a laundry list of isolation exercises.

U/L is only split worth a damn.

Full body is best because of higher training frequency and higher weekly volume while moving heavier weights each day.

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I've never understood the benefit of splits at any level. Maybe someone can explain it to me-

In my mind full body is always superior because

>You are training to failure just as often or more as on splits
>But you're also able to add in more isolation work
>And your volume will always be higher
>And recovering faster

The only even close to benefit I can think of with splits is that you POSSIBLY give yourself slightly more time to recover on muscle groups across the week, albeit at the cost of progress on other muscle groups

It always seems to me like people compare full body and splits with different weight ranges, but since any sensible full body program will have you lifting 3x or more per week at light, medium and heavy then it's simply always going to beat splits. 5/3/1 being a good example

>>42401407
It just comes to a point when you have to split the routine because it takes too much time (natty lifters should stay under 1h) or it's too fatiguing.
You could squat heavy on monday, bench heavy on tuesday, then do a light day on thursday and medium on saturday - that's the first basic split.
Once you have to split the medium day too, you have to remove the light day (or live in the gym), and you've got an upper/lower.
Splits used to grow organically, based on the lifter's needs.

>>42401407

A PPL split allows you to lift more often because while one muscle group is recovering you are lifting with another.

Fullbody.
Monday: Fullbody
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Fullbody
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Fullbody
Saturday: Rest
Sunday: Rest

PPL Split.
Monday: Push
Tuesday: Pull
Wednesday: Legs
Thursday: Push
Friday: Pull
Saturday: Legs
Sunday: Rest

>>42401446

>lifting for under an hour

Lmfao, do you know how I know you're weak as fuck?

>>42401453

Yet with the 3x per week full body routine you STILL get more weekly volume than lifting daily.

>>42394395
kekd

>>42401466
Try lifting more often instead of lifting for hours.

>>42401491

I literally warm up with your maxes.

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>>42401446
I suppose that's my problem, I've never compared split vs full body while natty. That said, the same principles apply because you're simply using less heavy weight on a full body controlled against a split to get the same results, which translates into the same or less amount of recovery time over the week.

>>42401453
>A PPL split allows you to lift more often because while one muscle group is recovering you are lifting with another.
No it doesn't because that statement is also true of a full body routine, merely the weight changes.

Your simplified example is nonsense and you're comparing 3x a week to 6x a week which is going to be a retarded comparison either way. Closer to reality:

Fullbody.
Monday: Fullbody - Light Chest, Medium Shoulders, Heavy Legs
Tuesday: Fullbody - Light Legs, Medium Chest, Heavy Shoulders
Wednesday: Fullbody - Light Shoulders, Medium Legs, Heavy Chest
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Fullbody - Light Chest, Medium Shoulders, Heavy Legs
Saturday: Fullbody - Light Legs, Medium Chest, Heavy Shoulders
Sunday: Fullbody - Light Shoulders, Medium Legs, Heavy Chest

PPL Split.
Monday: Push Heavy
Tuesday: Pull Medium
Wednesday: Legs Medium
Thursday: Push Medium
Friday: Pull Heavy
Saturday: Legs Heavy
Sunday: Rest

>>42389931
oldfag here, I have to agree with this as the most optimal aesthetics solution. Do that unless you are specifically training for a (barbell) sport

>>42401506
There's always someone stronger.
If you want my numbers you can find them here >>42393509

>>42401453
SHOCKING NEW THOUGHT

BOTH FULL BODY AND PPL WORK

MORE NEWS AT 11

>>42401395
Every routine works if you do it enough

>>42401534

My point stands.

>>42389919

What's your goal?

If your goal is to look good with your clothes off, then follow a routine which will help you with that.

If you want to be strong, a strength routine makes it easier to reach 'strength' goals quicker.

Quad, who used to post here nigh on 8 years ago or something used to advocate this also. Do whatever the fuck you want to do (within reason).

Personally, as a natty I follow a 4 day/week upper lower spilt with strength and hypertrophy. I was on WS4SB for a while but had to improvise since I work offshore and can't follow everything to the letter. I don't artistically like the simplicity of SS or Bill Starr 5x5, but thats not to say other people don't enjoy it and have results akin to what they want.

>>42401534
Not him but what he said is true for me- your squat and diddy are less than my warmup

>>42401453
As I've gotten older and shifted focus to other sports, 3 full body lifts like this has become the most reasonable way to stay in the gym.

M: Bench Squat Rows etc.
W: DL Back Arms etc.
F: Bench Front Squat Chest etc.

Probably all 1:15-1:30 long, 6 exercises for about 3-4 sets. I also wrestle every day which trains all the aesthetic muscles.

>>42401566
Similar to what I did in my first year of training- I'm now closer to 5 days per week with 2 or 3x bench, ohp, squat and diddy on full body but I've come down to 1hr/day

Do OHP you fuck

>>42401550
>>42401555
That's good. It would be a sad day if I was the strongest guy on the board.

Thing is, that routine is still driving my gains up, at least weekly. It won't last forever, but for now it works, and those shouldn't be noob gains, I've stalled out of SS already. Maybe it's just the effect of lowering the volume, idk.

>>42401602

Fact also is lifting under an hour you are not trying hard enough.

>>42401602
Like someone else said, any routine will work if you do it enough
This thread is merely arguing detail and efficiency either way, whatever works for you comrade

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>>42400470
Thank you, kind sir. I think I'm gonna try out this routine. I have been stalling on pic related lately.

>>42390671
So the main lifts go down in weight? I mean the ascending sets.

>>42402825
Yeah, that's how I do it.

>>42402896
This seems interesting to me. I might try this out since I am on vacation next week. Thanks bro.

Instead of doing PPL why not just put shoulders on the leg day?

>>42394287

>megadeth tattoo

nice

>>42389919
I bro split, but it's only because that's the way I was taught by my buddy. However, he did lift competitively back in highschool. I've been at it for 5 months now and I'm still making progress every week.

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>>42391909
>being this mad and wrong at the same time

>>42400382
I've been doing 10x20 3x a week and I've seen some bretty good delt gains, so I'm not so sure that 4x10 with heavier weight will do a whole lot. But then again, I've never tried it