Vegan diets don't have enough prote...

Vegan diets are inexpensive compared to non-vegan di..

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>>42361450
>vanilla almond crunch

>>42361450
because 18g of protein is actually eno-

Lenny and Larry's cookies are vegan with 16g of protein per 200 calories.

>290 calories
>Can get more protein for half the calories with whey
>12 bar box
>Nearly $30
> 216g of protein altogether
> Protein powder $60 with over 1200g of protein altogether

>>42361450
18 grams of protein, laughable. Even clif protein bars are better than that.

>>42361524
>>42361465

Pay now or pay later anon. Your healthcare costs from eating animals products will far exceed the cost of fresh plant based whole foods today.

>>42361622
>>42361477
You've been lied to by food processors about how much protein you need for gains.
The articles you read is muscle mags are paid for by the dairy industry.

>>42361645
This is why there are so many vegan bodybuilders-

>>42361633
Utterly PATHETIC that you believe this drivel. Cooking some fresh fish in garlic outdoes your "supplement based" nutrition many times over. My ancestors have been eating all sorts of meat for the past thousands of years.

>>42361661
LOOK OUT IT'S CANDLEJA-

>>42361645
Wrong. Bodybuilders require massive amounts of protein to compete.

>>42361670
Fish contains just as much cholesterol per pound as red meat, and your ancestors died in their 40s.

>>42361450
Enjoy your whey sugar bars you dolt

>>42361672
that's not how it works you candle faggot

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>>42361672
you did the meme wrong but kek

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>>42361685
Incorrect my grandpa died at 100
try again veggienigger

>>42361683
False, they do not. Steroids and other PEDs are what make competitive bodybuilders look the way they do.

You've been sold the idea that milk based protein powders and meal replacements will get you there, because those are easier to sell to large markets than PEDs.

>>42361713
>thousands
>hundred

Following a whole food plant based diet is good for brain health as well.

>>42361720
Name 1 (ONE) professional vegan bodybuilder

*one that was vegan from the start. Not someone who consumed animal products then turned vegan a week before competition

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>>42361633
Stop with this BS. Vegan diets are not better than omnivores diet. Get the fuck out of fit, no one wants you here. Hell, no one wants vegan anywhere. You are annoying as hell and should all be slaughtered in a big state farm, and force fed the meat of your "fellow vegans", you are worst than cattle and you deserve to be treated as such. You are fucking animals, and the worst of our species.

>>42361736
carl lewis wasnt a bodybuilder but pretty swole olympian

>>42361729
Do all vegans lack reading comprehension?

>>42361720
>IF HE'S BIGGER THAN ME HE'S ON GEAR
*sips milk*
I get most all of my protein without whey
>>42361729
Incorrect einstein and stephen hawking ate/eat meat
*reads book*
I'm smarter than you, kid.

>>42361633
>>42361633
>Your healthcare costs

Oh dear

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>>42361736

>>42361755
All professional bodybuilders take PEDs, which has nothing to do with their being 'bigger' than me. Most pro athletes of all types, even golfers, take PEDs. That you don't accept that means you've swallowed a load of marketing wank.

Also, Tesla followed a whole food plant based diet.

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>>42361736

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>>42361807
if i blew on his neck would he die?

>>42361450

The ingredients seem dope

>>42361770
This is simply fact.

This isn't to say that eating meat is inherently bad for your health, only that eating meat as it is currently available is. Pollution spread throughout the environment bioaccumulates in animals, and you ingest it when you eat products made from them. Modern animal farming makes use of a dizzying array of chemicals to do its things. You eat those when you eat animal products.

>>42361834
Nice broscience
No sweeite you're really just a conspiracy theorist

>>42361834
sorry sweetie i only eat chicken and beef that I raise myself on my farm

check mate vegan fag

>>42361847
You don't believe in bioaccumulation? That modern animal farm use the bulk of antibiotics produced in the US?

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>>42361871
Did you know those trails in the sky are dropping poison on the general population, and that all public leaders are lizard people? Vegans could all give olympians a run for their medals with these mental gymnastics.

>>42361915
Ok so no you don't.

What are your thoughts on gravity?

Whole wheat and beans are 18% protein. 3000 cals x .18 = 150 g protein. Oats, wheat, beans, bakers yeast in bulk. soy powder. Sounds gross and tough but doable and cheap.

>>42361871
I studied biology for three years before I dropped out. Bioaccumulation mostly applies to heavy metals like lead and mercury. Eating the meat of an animal that was given antibiotics doesn't mean you're ingesting antibiotics. Ever notice how when you're put on antibiotics, you feel weird? You don't digest your food properly because all the bacteria in your system is being killed? Now, do you get that feeling when you eat meat?

>>42361450
OP I'm thinking about going vegan after watching "What the Health", the documentary. Still not sure how it would be possible to bulk up and get all of your macros, proteins, etc.

I'm currently starting to research into it. Do you have some good sources?

>>42361807
you know he consumed animal products, bot jacked, then became vegan right?

>>42361959
i saw that there is some kind of wheat based protein product but the AA score (protein completeness) was very low compared to animal based (and some plant based) ones.

>>42362041
Idiot

https://youtu.be/skIGCoopR-g

i just got stomach sick, i want to die and i feel like shit.

And yet i cant stop thinking how fucking awful must it be to get sick like this and be vegetarian, you could probably actually die.

>>42361496
wrong. It's 16g of protein per cookie, which are like 300-400 cal each.

>>42362381
Believe me I would love to find out that the documentary was all bullshit, but the video you posted is crap, he gives no evidence, no sources...

>Anons save me from going vegan please

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>>42361864
>not killing two birds with one stone by getting those slaughter gains and some tasty fresh, still nutrient packed meat

Jelly

>>42361465
Legumes are 25% protein and cheap af
>>42361645
Post body
>>42361661
There are few vegan bodybuilders because there are few vegans
>>42361670
Your ancestors didn't vaccinate, use computers and phones, or drive cars either
>>42361683
Which you can get in a vegan diet. It's inconvenient, but doable. Is your goal to be just a shredded dude or do you literally want to be Phil Heath?
>>42361713
>My grandpa smoked 4 packs a day and died at 100, but my uncle didn't smoke once in his life and died at 45. That must mean smoking is healthy, right?
>>42361736
1) name ONE (1) regular human, vegan from birth. That's right, there are too few. That doesn't have anything to do with veganism being unsuitable for bodybuilding, it just means their parents fed them animal products. As soon as they knew better, they switched.
2) JEHINA MALIK.
>>42361749
He was a false flagging meat eater, not a vegan. Real vegans would never say a wfpb diet with plenty of legumes, rice, oats, pb and pasta is expensive.
Also most of us aren't really arguing that veganism is healthier, we are saying it's not unhealthier.
>>42361864
You're still killing and eating someONE.
>>42361959
Let's add that by shifting consumption towards legumes and limiting our wheat product consumption to mostly seitan can give even more protein with 2000 kcal, say if you're cutting

>>42363777
>Legumes are 25% protein and cheap af
And you'll need to eat nothing but if you need your macros to be ≥25% protein.

>>42361450
For every vegan dumbass there are 23 gymcels willingly taking the bait. Just don't repeat to shitty vegan threads.

>>42363809
Actually, less. Legumes are 25% by weight, not by calories. 100 g beans is about 25 g protein for about 330 kcal, so calorie wise legumes are about 30%
Also you can eat tofu, tempeh and seitan which have way higher % protein
Also, you don't really need more than 150g protein if you're normal sized by /fit/ standards
Also you should be eating legumes for the majority of your calories anyway, stuff like peas and chickpeas are full of vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and all the good shit you want

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>>42363857

>>42361645
Topkek

>>42361834

PCBs, dioxins, DDT etc all bioaccumulate eh.

>>42362034
It applies to mercury in the form of methylmercury. Google "persistant organic pollutant"

>>42363777

http://www.wkbw.com/news/national/vegan-diet-leads-to-infants-death-parents-convicted

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/11/italian-baby-fed-vegan-diet-hospitalized-for-malnutrition/

http://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-and-tell/lauren-parentingcom/vegan-nursing-moms-baby-dies-malnutrition

Here are a few people vegan from birth dude

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>>42364006
There are plenty of vegan from birth babies, toddlers and kiddos with weekly blogs in YouTube. Unnatural vegan, vegan geezer, vegan mom etc.

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Vegan diets don't have enough prot-

>>42364030
I've never read about meat-eating couples who starved their kids.

>>42364045
Because non-sensationalist "news" don't get clicks, especially if they don't reaffirm the reader's belief. Come on man, that's marketing 101.

>>42364006
The first one is just the parents being retarded and feeding their child a fad diet, this has absolutely nothing to do with veganism.

>>42364030
veganism is incredibly dangerous for a baby.

let adults do whatever the fuck they want, but don't force it one children

>>42364139
>Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life-cycle including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028

>No fully proven advantages over meat-eating
>Plenty of downsides
>Emotional side is based off extending compassion, a human emotion, to non-human beings
>oh but let's stop at animals that's where we'll draw the line

Have there ever been bigger cucks than vegans?

>>42361450
>18g per serving
Or I could just eat an egg for maybe 1/10 of the money

>>42364200
>No fully proven advantages over meat-eating
Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true
>Plenty of downsides
Name ONE (1)
>Emotional side is based off extending compassion, a human emotion, to non-human beings
You're conflating ethics with emotion. Ethics can be based off logic. Name the trait present in humans and absent in animals that justifies killing animals for food, that if true of a certain human would justify killing them for food, without appealing to emotion.
Meat eaters are the ones using emotion to justify killing animals, not vegans. "It tastes good (it makes me feel happy and wholesome emotions in my tummy) so it's ok for me to kill.
Name ONE reason to eat meat that ISN'T an appeal to nature, tradition, emotion or habit
>oh but let's stop at animals that's where we'll draw the line
We draw the line at sentience. What makes someTHING ok to eat but someONE not ok to eat is sentience.
If it feels it exists, has a brain and a cns and/or can subjectively experience reality (including feeling pain), don't eat it. Just eat something else.

>>42364235
>Just because you say it doesn't mean it's true
The same goes. Just because you say it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't.
>Name ONE (1)
Vitamin deficiencies. You might turn around and go "oh but if you eat these specific fortified foods it's fine" but the fact is that the majority of people eating a traditional meat-based diet will not suffer from vitamin deficiencies due to the makeup of the foods contained. Meat and animal products are incredibly rich in a variety of nutrients our bodies require, and a vegan diet requires special attention paid in order to ensure no deficiencies occur. This gives a tremendous downside to those living in poorer conditions who may not be able to afford the wide variety of foods needed to cover all the nutrients require when partaking in a vegan diet.
>Name the trait present in humans and absent in animals that justifies killing animals for food, that if true of a certain human would justify killing them for food, without appealing to emotion.
Name the trait present in humans and absent in animals that would justify ignoring the natural evolution of a species in favour of a contrived diet, without appealing to emotion.
>Name ONE reason to eat meat that ISN'T an appeal to nature, tradition, emotion or habit
These questions are just pigeon-holing. Any answer given could be rebutted by stating I ignored your rules, yet the rules themselves are flawed.
>We draw the line at sentience
"Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively"
Paying attention to the usage of the term 'subjectively'. Just because a dog or pig can give us auditory or visual cues of a perceived sentience doesn't mean that a plant isn't also experiencing sentience, but without the capability to communicate as such. It's been proven that some species of animals do not feel pain the same way that humans feel pain, and if we are to extend the line to cover a studied imitation of human pain why do we then stop there?

>>42364298
On a tangent, we're clearly at a point where most vegans will reason that if it has the possibility of being sentient, then we shouldn't kill it. We consider a cluster of cells human because it has the possibility to become in the future, yet we will happily kill that when we know for sure it will experience human reality. I don't understand how at any point people who are vegan could support any form of abortion. The two are exactly the same.

>>42364235
>Meat eaters are the ones using emotion to justify killing animals, not vegans
There's no need to justify killing animals. Do you justify stepping on an ant? Something must be unjust for there to be a need to justify it.

>>42364200
>No fully proven advantages over meat-eating
Less likely to get food borne illnesses
Generally cheaper
No bioamplification of toxic chemicals and elements such as pesticides and mercury
Lower risk of heart disease
Lower risk of diabetes
You can eat a larger volume of food because plant foods tend to be less calorie dense
>Plenty of downsides
???
>Emotional side is based off extending compassion, a human emotion, to non-human beings
No, it's called being morally consistent. The vast majority of human "omnivores" aren't morally consistent, that's why many of them cringe when they hear about the animal abuse in slaughterhouses.
>oh but let's stop at animals that's where we'll draw the line
Appeal to futility, not an argument.

>>42364038
But muh incomplete protein .
>they can never name the "missing" aminos

>>42364298
Not the guy you're responding to, but

>the majority of people eating a traditional meat-based diet will not suffer from vitamin deficiencies due to the makeup of the foods contained.
This is just plain wrong. A simple google search reveals that 1 in 10 Americans is deficient in vitamin B6, for example.
https://www.cdc.gov/nutritionreport/pdf/4page_%202nd%20nutrition%20report_508_032912.pdf
>Meat and animal products are incredibly rich in a variety of nutrients our bodies require
Like trans-fats, cholesterol and saturated fat, right? Nevermind the fact that cardiovascular disease is the leading killer in western nations.
>This gives a tremendous downside to those living in poorer conditions who may not be able to afford the wide variety of foods needed to cover all the nutrients require when partaking in a vegan diet.
2 pounds of red lentils is about as expensive as a single pack of cheap meat here, except the lentils will feed me for 9 days and the pack of meat will only feed me one day. Once again you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

And you really don't need to eat that varied to meet all your micronutrients every day on a vegan diet.
>Name the trait present in humans and absent in animals that would justify ignoring the natural evolution of a species in favour of a contrived diet, without appealing to emotion.
Humans are more intelligent than animals for one, and because we're more intelligent than animals we should be able to recognize that animals are capable of perceiving pain and that it is wrong to cause harm to an animal based on this.

>>42364306
>I don't understand how at any point people who are vegan could support any form of abortion.
I don't support abortion, what now?

>>42364062

Or because feeding an average meat-based diet to a baby isn't a recipe for death like a vegan diet.

You hear about kids who die from neglect, kids who die from tainted food, etc. But 'eating a meat-inclusive' diet isn't a cause of death.

>>42364298
>Just because you say it isn't true doesn't mean it isn't.
Cholesterol, saturated fats, heart disease. Either you know it's true or you believe it isn't.
>Vitamin deficiencies
Name one. The only one I can think of that needs very specific planning to reach 100% RDA is choline which is not exactly a vitamin. Not vitamin A, not vitamin E, not B12, nothing. All these are extremely easy to get (yes, even B12).
> a traditional meat-based diet will not suffer from vitamin deficiencies
I wonder. If I post a population study that says not only vegans are B12 deficient, like "Almost 40% of the U.S. population is deficient in vitamin B12 according to a recent study from Tufts University in Boston and a vast majority of them are completely unaware. They found 39 percent with plasma B12 levels in the "low normal" range - below 258 picomoles per liter (pmol/L).", He will claim that they weren't watching what they are. Could it be that you need to watch your diet regardless of whether you're vegan or not? Or is the study implying that 2 out of 5 Americans are vegan? :thinking:
>those living in poorer conditions
1) They should prioritize not making more children and digging themselves out of the financial shitholes they live in before worrying about animal rights, I agree
2) rice and legumes are the cheapest foods available in the vast majority of the world and they just happen to be vegan
>the wide variety of foods needed to cover all the nutrients require when partaking in a vegan diet
Just for fun, try adding just peas and soymilk in cronometer (low variety) in adequate amounts to cover your calories and tell me how many nutrients you miss. Hint: almost none
1/2

>>42361633
So theres a picture of processed packaged bars of some type of food origin? What's fresh about that?

>>42364298
>Name the trait present in humans and absent in animals that would justify ignoring the natural evolution of a species in favour of a contrived diet, without appealing to emotion.
1) you are implying natural selection is relevant, for our species, in the current year. It isn't. We needed cooked meat because it was a calorie dense source of energy and nutrients. That is a non-issue when you have grocery stores with literally everything
2) you are appealing to nature, that's another fallacy
3) you dodged my question because you were backed into an inescapable corner, so now you move the goalposts because you are TOO MUCH OF A PUSSY to admit that the ONLY reason you eat meat is that you like the taste. That makes you dishonest and a coward.
>These questions are just pigeon-holing. Any answer given could be rebutted by stating I ignored your rules, yet the rules themselves are flawed.
Let me rephrase it, PUSSY, because you are TOO DUMB to understand.BName a nutrient that is INHERENTLY lacking in a vegan diet.
> Just because a dog or pig can give us auditory or visual cues of a perceived sentience
So you're admitting animals are sentient.
>doesn't mean that a plant isn't also experiencing sentience, but without the capability to communicate as such
No brain, no CNS. We are our brain piloting a flesh factory. If I chop off your arm (disconnect it from the brain) it won't feel anything. Plants are not sentient. It's like saying rocks are sentient.
>But they react to external stimuli
Bear traps react to stimuli, are they sentient?

Also, even if FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT admit that plants do feel pain (which they DON'T, but we'll PRETEND they do), raising an animal to kill requires the death of many more plants (be it soy, grain or grass) because of the poor feed:flesh conversion ratio

>>42363899
He's right though. Stop responding to bait.

>>42364213
And add 187mg of cholesterol and 1.6g of saturated fat
>just fuck my arteries up senpai
and get really no other nutrients except some B12. Just protein, fat, and cholesterol, and some toxins if you are eating commercial eggs.

>>42364151
> vegans breastfeeding a baby

pls pls pls tell me nobody does this

>>42364589
Sure it is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/health/11fat.html

>>42364649
I'm merely making the proposal that if a person wants to follow a whole food plant based die but it yoked with the belief that a 'large' amount of protein is needed, it can be had similar to any other supplement.

>>42364685
>Name a nutrient that is INHERENTLY lacking in a vegan diet.
B12
>lolno they got B12 fortified yeast now
Yeah like it came out yesterday from 1 company

>>42364685
>you are implying natural selection is relevant, for our species, in the current year. It isn't.
pretty sure the romans said exactly the same thing a few years before the fall of Rome.

>>42365061
Breastfeeding, like blowjobs, is performed consentingly and causes no harm to anyone, so it's vegan
>>42365107
You're reaching, hard and ignoring the 99% of my post that completely wafflestomps you.
Also you don't know what inherently means
Also you're lying, fortified plant milks, fortified cereals, nooch (vegan "cheese" flakes) and supplements are vegan and widely available.

THERE IS LITERALLY NO ARGUMENT AGAINST VEGANISM
ADMIT DEFEAT

>>42361496
>jewnny and jewrry cookies

>>42365107
>what is Vegemite?

>>42365253
a vegan diet is not natural, what do you do when the megacorps and industry supporting your life style drops dead, do you submit to meat or do you just continue to lead an unhealthy life style with the lack of supplements?

>>42365330
>a vegan diet is not natural
Eating rice, potatoes, chicpleas and brans is perfectly natural
Hanging sentient beings upside down to kill them by the billion (as opposed to hunting) is unnatural
Also
Vaccines, cars, phones, computers etc aren't natural
Cobra poison, shark teeth, lion claws and tornadoes are natural
>what do you do when the megacorps and industry supporting your life style drops dead
Why would they drop dead, veganism is stronger than ever
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=dairy,steak,cheese,vegan,bacon
Veganism is rising faster than anything else

Alright, back from gym. Going one post at a time.

>>42364364
>Less likely to get food borne illnesses
Vegans are more likely to be conscious of their diet than non-vegans. Less of the population are vegan.
>Generally cheaper
Subjective.
>No bioamplification of toxic chemicals and elements such as pesticides and mercury
I don't have a comprehensive understanding on the subject, but mercury poisoning is primarily an issue in areas that are heavily reliant on fishing. I would disagree that mercury poising is a meat eating issue in general. I think it is more of a dietary issue. The same way eating too much soy can have adverse effects, or eating a diet that doesn't cover your nutritional bases would be negative for health reasons. It is also my understanding that pesticides are prevalent in fruits and vegetables.
>Lower risk of heart disease
>Lower risk of diabetes
Explained through vegans typically being more conscious of their diets. Overconsumption of red meat is the issue with heart disease in meat eaters. People forget that your diet shouldn't mainly consist of meat. They also forget to stop eating so fucking much.
>eat more
Preference.

>Downsides
As stated, nutrient issues are prevalent. Calcium, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin B-12 and folate are the primary ones. Yes, there are ways around this. No, it is not convenient or cheap in a lot of areas. Subjective, but my vegan friend has to travel 30km into the city to go to a health shop that supplies the foods and vitamins she needs to cover her B-12 deficiency.

>No, it's called being morally consistent
How is stopping your definition at animals morally consistent? Unless I'm confused, the idea is to preserve conscious life. Where do we draw the line of consciousness? I don't understand how you can pick and choose. Either your own species are superior life forms or nothing is. Saying humans and animals are superior and need to be protected but other life forms are fair game is not consistent.

>>42365457
One box of B12 is like 5 bucks and lasts 2 years. The nutrient "arguments" are only relevant for people who aren't even aware of them.

>>42364538
>This is just plain wrong
Given. However, a simple google search will also reveal pages upon pages of how-to guides for vegans suffering from vitamin deficiency. In addition, vegans are more likely to be diet conscious and therefore take the steps to ensure they get the vitamins they need. We're fighting a losing battle with obesity in every 1st world country. Getting the majority of the population to become diet conscious is not going to happen. The majority of the population eats meat. It is not the diet that is at fault, it is the apathy and lack of nutritional knowledge in the general population. A balanced meat eating diet will cover, without added supplements, every nutritional need of the human body.
>Like trans-fats, cholesterol and saturated fat
Moderation is key, and those three you mentioned all have benefits when consumed in proportion.
>cardio disease
Once again, uneducated fat cunt masses shovelling mcdonalds down their gullets. I guarantee that if everyone was vegan the same shit would happen.
>2 pounds of red lentils...
My local shopping market doesn't stock cheap lentils. I've looked. I found one 500g can that was $4.50. Instead, for the same price, I bought two chicken breasts that fed me for 4 meals. Subjective.

>Humans are more intelligent than animals for one, and because we're more intelligent than animals we should be able to recognize that animals are capable of perceiving pain and that it is wrong to cause harm to an animal based on this.
And yet the entirety of human history is covered end to end in bloodshed and war. We are not capable as a species of giving up an advantage for nought but the misguided morals of a new generation. I fully agree that animal torture shouldn't be the mainstream practice, yet we have ways of buying meat that has been responsibly killed, without unnecessary pain and suffering.

>I don't support abortion, what now?
There's a reason that was another post, nothing but an idle tangent.

>>42365574
Trans fats are inherently and only bad.

>>42364607
>Cholesterol, saturated fats, heart disease.
>Vitamin deficiencies
> a traditional meat-based diet will not suffer from vitamin deficiencies
Answered these.

>1) They should prioritize not making more children and digging themselves out of the financial shitholes they live in before worrying about animal rights, I agree
I would say it's our responsibility to worry about humans in poverty and suffering before animals.
>2) rice and legumes are the cheapest foods available in the vast majority of the world and they just happen to be vegan
You also cannot sustain a healthy diet off purely rice and legumes. Vegetables and plants should make up a large part of your diet as a meat eater. Humans have evolved to eat primarily plants, with meat as supplementation. Most people forget this and eat themselves into heart failure. This is wrong.

>soymilk
Not a chance. Soy consumption is something I try and avoid for the negative health effects.

>>42365610
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/04/26/natural-trans-fats-actually-have-health-benefits.aspx
Literally the first thing on google.

Do most active "athletes" even micromanage their nutrients? I'm pretty sure most just make sure they get enough protein and fiber from what they assume to be healthful food sources, take a multivitamin, and hope for the best. The bickering should be around price and what is more likely to give you chronic illness.

>>42365645
I mean it's an article about a study, which isn't linked, done on rats against literally the entire scientific consensus. Even keto and paleo supporters say trans fats are shit. Trans fats reducing total+LDL cholesterol and triglycerides? Yeah sure.

>>42365645
Just because you can find one fool that agrees with you, that doesn't magically turn it into the truth.

>>42365636
>Soy consumption is something I try and avoid for the negative health effects.
What negative effects?

>>42364685
>1)
That's very privileged of you to say that. Not the entirety of the human population has easy access to what constitutes a healthy vegan diet. We still have a lot of humans who are starving, for whom cooked meat as a calorie dense source of energy and nutrients would be highly beneficial.
>2)
You are only considering your own situation. Broaden your horizons.
>3)
I do like the taste. I don't see how I'm moving the goalposts, because you set up a list of arbitrary bullshit to try and force me into answering a loaded question.
>Let me rephrase it, PUSSY, because you are TOO DUMB to understand.BName a nutrient that is INHERENTLY lacking in a vegan diet.
I've answered this, and you're resorting to ad hominem and name calling in favour of an argument. If you're so keen to point out my apparent fallacies, why don't you focus on removing them from your own argument first?
>So you're admitting animals are sentient.
Well if you want to remove the word 'perceived' from my sentence you could change the meaning to suit your needs, sure.
>No brain, no CNS
If that's what we're using as the definition for sentience then I suppose all vegans can start eating mussels, right?

Nobody brought up the plants feeling pain idea. We simply know that, as with animals who are more closely related to humans and thus better understood, they react to external stimuli including what would potentially cause pain.

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>>42365039
>still unironicly belives in cholesterol meme
>gives lectures about healthy food

lmao

>>42365733
About 1, you're posting on 4chan's /fit/ very likely from the US, chances are can easily make a vegan diet work. The many hundred million people without clean water do not matter for this.

>>42361450
>$3 a bar in bulk
ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahah
ahahhahhahahahhahahahhahahahahhahah
hahahhahahhahahahahhahahahahahhahah
ahahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahahhaha

>>42365724
Turning into a sissy.

>>42365805
Phytoestrogens in a non retarded amount are absolutely harmless. You can easily drink a liter of soymilk a day and be fine.

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>>42364139
for a Moment i really thought you were talking serious, got me.

>>42365696
>>42365701
Ok, after spending some time reading I'm struggling to find a valid source on that. I yield. I'd also like to point out that trans fats are still present in vegan products and consumption comes down to dietary choices.

>>42365724
Lower sperm count
https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/Soy-food-and-isoflavone-intake-in-relation-to
There's also some minor correlation between soy consumption and higher estrogen levels. I don't like it because of this. Mainly a personal thing.

>>42365777
Actually, I live in Australia, a fair bit from the city. Why do the people without clean water not matter?

>>42363777

and there are very few vegans cause being a vegan is fucking retarded. good observation.

>>42365829
>Actually, I live in Australia, a fair bit from the city. Why do the people without clean water not matter?
Because this is about a diet choice in the first world. If you take Africa into account the premise would be "eat everything you can get your hands on that's edible", it doesn't matter. Now if you don't have an available source to make a vegan diet work for yourself that's legit, but most people in the US/Europe/Aus do.

>>42365829
>>42365879
Oh and if you ban vegetable oils, which you should, the trans fats intake on a vegan diet is as low as it can get.

>>42363883
Go for seitan, it's basically bread made of protein powder.
Expensive if you buy it pre-made, but gluten costs like cheap meat per kg, and it's cheaper per gram of protein.

As a frugal meateater it saddens me, but the cheapest /fit/worthy diet is based on lentils and seitan.
Gotta say, you better eat some mackarel or other oily fish with that, or you'll have to supplement a fuckload of shit... par for the course if you wanna be vegan, I guess.

>>42365899
>eating kg's of autoimmune disease

>>42365829
Correlation is not causation. The amount of sperm in a western man's ejaculation has halved since the 70's and it's very unlikely that that's caused by drinking some soy milk.

If I were you I would be more worried about BPA and other plastics.

>>42365879
Let me follow this logic. It's about diet choice in the first world, and you are of the opinion those in the first world should all follow a vegan diet. This means overhauling our current meat based food industry. This means money. Money that could be and should be spent on providing better living conditions for humans first before worrying about the effects we're having on animals. Making minor pushes, such as winding down cage egg farming over time in favour of something less cruel, definitely have their place. However, if we're to make a mass change in the way we handle our food production, we should first look at the food production issues in the rest of the world first. As a 1st world nation, it is our responsibility to care for those less fortunate, and who less fortunate than those of our own species starving to death when we have such an abundance of food that the biggest drain on many countries medical systems is fat cunts. There are issues with our world, but swapping our diet to a purely plant based one is not the solution and will only create more issues on the way.

>>42365922
>falling for the celiac jew
Are you suffering from celiac disease? No? Then you can eat gluten, wtf.

>>42365933
Once again, mainly a personal thing. It doesn't help that I don't like the taste either, and I'm not going to consume something I dislike unless I have to.

>>42361622
??? i've been vegan for a while and clifs bars have 9-11g protein for a 68g 250cal bar

>>42365938
>you are of the opinion those in the first world should all follow a vegan diet
I never said that, I'm not the same guy you replied to earlier. All I said was you could.

> we should first look at the food production issues in the rest of the world firs
Food production has never been a problem, there is more than enough food for all of the world. It has always been about distribution and the big countries will NEVER care that much about others. What you're talking about is a dream scenario about altruists and humans caring about humankind as a whole.

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>>42365749
I actually looked into it because I tried to find some evidence on whether cholesterol is dangerous or not. Most clinical studies and ward experiments are pretty clear on this and indicate that there is 1. a clear correlation between higher dietary cholesterol intake and serum cholesterol, and a shift in LDL/HDL ratio. 2. There is a clear correlation between a higher LDL/HDL ration and CHD risk.

Most studies that show inconclusive results for effects of dietary cholesterol focus to and awfully high amount on eggs (hint: because the researchers and studies are paid by egg industry but this is not yet a reason to completely dismiss them) and they are 99% just abstracts that only give a biased overview of what the study results were. When you actually go through the effort of finding what the full study paper looked like, you'll be severely disappointed. You get this view on how egg intake changes different blood markers. No real numbers or showing the ratios just arrows. These are the kind of falsified and purposefully misrepresented results that have brought in the confusion on whether dietary cholesterol is dangerous or not.

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>>42365953
VG is going to kill you in your sleep if you don't eat that soy burger.

>>42365976
So what's the argument for veganism then? I could change my diet, and I could start wearing chinos. If you want to, that's your own choice. Pushing the idea on others as righteous or solely beneficial is ignorant. Apologies if I'm not addressing your attitude correctly, keeping track of so many people is difficult.

>dream scenario
That is exactly what it is. You are correct, that will never be a reality. The same way that a world where violence and pain for all species is gone would never be a reality. It is my personal choice to do what little I can to pursue that goal. Yet I do so with full knowledge and disclosure of its futility and the negative effects we would see if we tried hard enough to succeed in that goal. At least in Australia, our economy is already so far in the shitter that any large effort to overhaul a problem such as mass poverty would cause us to collapse on ourselves. I see veganism as very much the same thing. Flawed and unrealistic, yet a noble enough ideal. However, the attitude and justification behind it by the majority of vegans I have subjectively experienced is manipulative and fueled by selfishness. Movements that shame those involved in the animal farming industry fail to take into account the lives of those people and create enemies out of our own society, something we're very adept at doing as a species. I believe effort should be focused elsewhere.

>>42361496
More like 8g of protien per 160 kcal, not very good desu

>>42366113
I mean more people becoming vegan would be a very good thing overall. If you care about things ideals like equality, helping the less fortunate and not having a bad impact on the planet vegan is objectively a better diet. You should shame the people in charge of regulating the industry for not taking action out of selfishness.

>/fit/ believes any amount of soy will make you transition because a couple of studies showing unrealistically high doses of soy might correlate with slightly lower, but physiologically irrelevant levels of testosterone
>/fit/ completely disregards decades of evidence showing cholesterol and LDL's are associated with heart disease

>>42366193
I don't believe it is objectively better. Changing to a vegan diet requires an overhaul of infrastructure that would be devastating to an already weak world economy. The people actively making choices to benefit themselves over other people should be shamed, yes, but due to them being almost untouchable it ends up being the common man who cops the brunt of the attacks. I would wager a lot of people are against veganism for the same reason people voted Trump. They're sick of being told they're terrible people for not believing in the cause.

>>42366236
What? That points makes basically no sense at all. The current economy model can't grow indefinitely and changing the food industry towards a better system would be good. And besides, nobody can even begin to imagine all of the results.

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>>42366220
exactly. Eggs taste fucking good and give you big muscles. Soy? look at that nigga cosmo.

>>42365958
CLIF Protein bars. 20 Grams/290 calories.

>>42366277
No, the current economic model probably can't grow indefinitely. However, right now it's not growing, it's in a slow decline. Changing the food industry towards a system that would have no extra economic advantages while uprooting a lot of the current system would be financially draining in the best of times. Doing it while the economy is already strained would cause it to snap. Speculating at results does nothing. Economy wise, vegan farming might be marginally more efficient. Not efficient enough to make up for the start-up costs in any short amount of time, however.

>>42366370
That sounds much better. Where i live they only stock the regular ones with between 9-11g per bar in the supermarkets

>>42365636
>Answered these.
You didn't answer the 40% Americans are B12 deficient part
>I would say it's our responsibility to worry about humans in poverty and suffering before animals.
Yes, but here's the thing. Worrying about humans and improving their life requires money, time and effort. Improving animal welfare only requires not putting their corpses and secretions in your shopping cart. Zero money, time and effort.
>You also cannot sustain a healthy diet off purely rice and legumes.
You should look up what poor people in 3rd world countries eat. It's 90% rice and legumes.
>Vegetables and plants should make up a large part of your diet as a meat eater. Humans have evolved to eat primarily plants, with meat as supplementation.
Yes, except 1) as I've said before evolution and natural selection aren't an issue any more and 2) there isn't anything in meat that can't be found adequately and cheaply in plants
>Most people forget this and eat themselves into heart failure.
This is true.
>Soy consumption is something I try and avoid for the negative health effects.
There is absolutely zero evidence that soy consumption raises serum estrogen.

>>42366404
Aye. I can snag them at Walmarts and at Sportchek stores. I'm in Canada, if it helps.

>>42365733
>That's very privileged of you to say that.
I did acknowledge that poor people should have other priorities >>42364607
>Blah blah poor humans
Are you poor or privileged? You have internet so I'll assume the second.
>You are only considering your own situation. Broaden your horizons.
What did he mean by this?
>I do like the taste. I don't see how I'm moving the goalposts, because you set up a list of arbitrary bullshit to try and force me into answering a loaded question.
It's not arbitrary. I assume you (arbitrarily) respect human moral value. From there, believing in animal moral value is the only logical outcome. You still haven't named the trait that makes this sentence not true.
Note that I didn't say they are our equals, but simply that they don't deserve death on a whim.
>I've answered this, and you're resorting to ad hominem and name calling in favour of an argument.
You literally haven't
>Well if you want to remove the word 'perceived' from my sentence
Are you implying animals aren't sentient?
>If that's what we're using as the definition for sentience then I suppose all vegans can start eating mussels, right?
It's a gray area. Most will say something along the lines of "I wouldn't eat them just to be sure but they are probably vegan". My stance is that they are indeed vegan but they have the texture of snot, so ew.
>Nobody brought up the plants feeling pain idea.
You strongly implied it.

>>42365899
>Go for seitan, it's basically bread made of protein powder.
I do, that's literally what you replied to
>As a frugal meateater it saddens me that there are cheap options rich in protein that don't require someone else to die
??????

>>42366411
>You didn't answer the 40% Americans are B12 deficient part
I answered where I stated the vitamin deficiency present in Americans is due to the poor nutrition exhibited by the majority of the population. The obesity rate sits at 35.7% in America. Clearly, there is an issue with the people, not the diet.
>Worrying about humans and improving their life requires money, time and effort. Improving animal welfare only requires not putting their corpses and secretions in your shopping cart. Zero money, time and effort.
That is incredibly near-sighted. To swap any country to a pure vegan diet requires abolishing the meat industry and replacing it, as well as re-training all those involved. Considering food is one of the few things all humans absolutely require, these industries are fucking massive. It's just not that simple. The money isn't going to come from nowhere.
>You should look up what poor people in 3rd world countries eat. It's 90% rice and legumes.
Notice the part where I said a healthy diet? I would hardly consider poor people in 3rd world countries to be heralds of nutritional advice.
>Yes, except 1) as I've said before evolution and natural selection aren't an issue any more and 2) there isn't anything in meat that can't be found adequately and cheaply in plants
But changing our population to purely plants is not cheap, as I mentioned.

>>42366333
>Eggs taste fucking good
Not really. They're pretty damn bland. May as well eat something healthful like beans.

>>42366484
>there are cheap options rich in protein that don't require someone else to die
But I like some death with my macros!
Seriously, it's a bit of a culture shock for me, I was taught that you NEED to eat some meat.
Right now I'm convinced that a predominantly vegan diet, with some amount of oily fish on top, is the best (for your body and for your wallet, not for the planet).
I'd rather just supplement vitB and creatine and eat some fish, than taking more pills than a diabetic after his second hearth attack... unless you have some trick (other than just saying no to a fuckload of micronutrients) that's cheap and vegan?

>>42366508
>Clearly, there is an issue with the people, not the diet.
This means that you admit you were wrong here >>42364298
>Meat and animal products are incredibly rich in a variety of nutrients our bodies require, and a vegan diet requires special attention paid in order to ensure no deficiencies occur.
Which is a good thing.
>>42366508
>That is incredibly near-sighted
You are incredibly arrogant
>To swap any country to a pure vegan diet requires abolishing the meat industry and replacing it, as well as re-training all those involved. Considering food is one of the few things all humans absolutely require, these industries are fucking massive. It's just not that simple. The money isn't going to come from nowhere.
1) it's not going to be an overnight change
2) you wouldn't argue that smoking is good because it gives jobs to the multi billion dollar tobacco industry
3) I'd argue that we could save money by not having to treat heart disease
>Notice the part where I said a healthy diet?
Are you seriously still implying beans are unhealthy
>But changing our population to purely plants is not cheap, as I mentioned.
You didn't provide evidence, you just uttered your wrong opinion

>>42366423
>I did acknowledge
I cannot keep track of multiple different anonymous people arguing the same points, therefore I am responding one post at a time.
>Blah blah poor humans
Blah blah poor animals. Isn't the whole point of veganism that we have privilege as the smarter species so we should take responsibility? That's what I was saying, but replacing animals with humans and suddenly you don't give a shit.
>It's not arbitrary. I assume you (arbitrarily) respect human moral value. From there, believing in animal moral value is the only logical outcome.
That's not true at all, nor does it really make much sense as you're now referring to subjective concepts. I respect humans because that is my species. I respect human law, which is based off human morals, because that is the price I am willing to pay to live in our society. Animals, being outside of my species, are subject to entirely different moral ground. I am of the opinion no person or animal deserves anything, and are solely subject to their lot. I can help those in poor countries with negligible negative consequence to me. Swapping a country to a vegan diet results in huge negative consequences. Therefore, in my eyes, animals will continue to be worth slaughtering for consumption purpose while the context remains the same.
>Grey area
So now we're finding a level in which vegans come to disagreement over the terms. If the lines are blurred here, how can anyone be certain of where the boundaries lie? This makes it poorly thought out in a moral sense.
>Implications
If that's what you read into it, that's fine. I maintain I was not referring to that.

>>42366637
I do not see how I was wrong. I said a majority. 40% is not a majority.
>Which is a good thing.
Attention paid to a diet is a good thing, a vegan diet not being paid attention to will suffer from worse deficiencies than a meat based diet.
>1) it's not going to be an overnight change
It's not going to be an overnight cost either. Instead, a long and constant drain on the countries resources for many, many years.
>2) you wouldn't argue that smoking is good because it gives jobs to the multi billion dollar tobacco industry
The difference being that smoking has directly been proven to cause health issues. Meat based diets are only associated with health issues because the majority of the population eats them and a large percentage of said population couldn't tell you what a calorie was. I would go on to argue that the decline of the tobacco industry did cause a lot of turmoil for those employed. However, tobacco was not nearly as ingrained as the food industry is.
>3) I'd argue that we could save money by not having to treat heart disease
I'd argue that we're going to have to continue to treat heart disease through way of obesity due to the fact that despite huge amounts of money being poured into trying to educate the masses on nutrition we're still tackling a climbing obesity rate. Even if you could somehow get people to change from their literal tonne of over processed meat a day to a plant based diet I guarantee fat fucks would continue to be fat fucks.
>Are you seriously still implying beans are unhealthy
Are you seriously implying eating purely beans as a diet is healthy?
>You didn't provide evidence, you just uttered your wrong opinion
Do you actually need me to dig up statistics on how much it would cost to overhaul our food industry? Just take a gander at the amount of money present.
http://www.agriculture.gov.au/SiteCollectionDocuments/ag-food/publications/food-stats/australian-food-statistics-2012-13.pdf

>>42366627
>Seriously, it's a bit of a culture shock for me, I was taught that you NEED to eat some meat.
Ikr?
>Right now I'm convinced that a predominantly vegan diet, with some amount of oily fish on top, is the best (for your body and for your wallet, not for the planet).
It's one of the best diets, sure. Strictly nutrition wise there is literally nothing wrong with a bit of fish
>I'd rather just supplement vitB and creatine and eat some fish, than taking more pills than a diabetic after his second hearth attack... unless you have some trick (other than just saying no to a fuckload of micronutrients) that's cheap and vegan?
There are literally no micronutrients that a vegan diet is inherently deficient in, even without supplements. I'll post a few examples later. All cheap too!

>>42366804
>There are literally no micronutrients that a vegan diet is inherently deficient in, even without supplements
Seriously? Here are the ones that I can't get enough without eating some meat. It might just be that I'm eating the wrong things, idk.
>vitamin B group
>choline
>carnitine
>creatine (but doesn't really count since the optimal is what, 5g/day? you gotta supplement it anyway)
>carnosine/beta-alanine
>taurine
>phytanic acid
>omega-3s that are not ALA

>>42366875
>>vitamin B group
Nutritional yeast (nooch). Basically vegan "cheese" flakes
>>choline
This is the only one I'll admit is hard to get 100% RDA every day, but I do get 60% without watching what I eat. If you eat broccoli, quinoa and tofu you'll get enough. I get less because I neglect broccoli and cauliflower.
>>carnitine
"The naturally-occurring, chemical compound carnitine, or L-carnitine, is technically speaking, not an amino acid. It is actually a dipeptide made from the essential amino acids lysine and methionine. It is therefore often classed as a conditionally essential amino acid."
TLDR eat enough protein and you'll be fine
>>creatine (but doesn't really count since the optimal is what, 5g/day? you gotta supplement it anyway)
Basically this. You have to eat a kg of beef or 2 kg chicken to get it from food. Everyone should supplement it
>>carnosine/beta-alanine
Not an essential amino acid. You create enough on your own. It's all pwo marketing.
>>taurine
Same as above. Plus I get enough because I /sip/. You shouldn't, I shouldn't, but I am addicted to the taste. And I am not harming anyone else so it's ok :)
>>phytanic acid
First time I've heard of that. A quick Google doesn't show anything about it being necessary but I may be wrong
>>omega-3s that are not ALA
If you get enough ALA from food (seeds) your body converts enough
Also soy milk, tofu, etc

>>42361450
beans and rice have all the protein you need.

>>42361450
>2017
>arguing with corpsemunchers
Don't bother.

>>42361450
>5$ per bar

>>42362381
>that dislike ratio
that guy looks like he is about to drop dead

>>42367244
So the real problem nutrients are choline (not really a problem, you can eat 600g of broccoli per day) and omega-3 (ALA only isn't acceptable, even at the higher rate of conversion that vegetarians develop).
It's ok, I'll balance my diet around omega-3s or supplement fish oil (but might as well eat the whole fish).

>>42361685
>Cholesterol is inherently bad
Your own body literally makes it

>>42361450
They don't have enough meat that's for sure.

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>>42368777
God wills it you silly faggots

>>42365436
I hate the word "natural" used in arguments.
If we can agree humans are natural, then whatever we choose to do can be considered natural

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>>42361633
>protein bar
>fresh plant based whole food

>>42368947
That was the point I was making, that it was silly of >>42365330 to say that "vegan diets are unnatural"
>>42368743
Let me put it this way, if you want to be "as vegan as possible" and meet all your nutrient needs without relying on supplements or your body's conversion rates, you just need 100g fresh salmon daily.

>>42362381

>following the suggestions of someone w orthorexia who eats aprox 1300 cal/d to stay lean

please

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>>42364402

like L-carnitine?

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>>42369208
I was thinking a 90g tin of mackerel, but yeah, it's pretty easy to be almost vegan and healthy.
A quick diet plan could work pretty well, healthier than my usual fare, and sorta cheap too, the nuts are the only real 'luxury' food.

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>it's a vegan thread

>>42365749
Enjoy eating shitloads of fipronil.

While you wait to die you can enjoy LOLing along with >>42362034 the 3 year biology student dropout who doesn't believe in bioaccumulation.


http://nltimes.nl/2017/08/02/eggs-contaminated-fipronil-maybe-sold-year

>>42361465
man just don't eat pre made shit like this. Immagine a regular omnivorous diet (fruits veggies grains milk eggs meat) now replace the animal products with the following inexpensive alternatives: Beans, tofu, lentils, tvp and seitan. All of those foods are cheaper than the animal alternatives, especially seitan. I make seitan from gluten (90% of calories from protons) and spices, and gluten costs like 2$/lb from the local bulk store

I also use pea protein (10$/lb) and 85% calories from protein and hemp protein (12$/lb) which is 60% calories from protein but very high in fiber, and crazy high in iron magnesium and calcium. Both powders are cheaper than whey.

If you're not and idiot it's actually less money than a healthy omnivorous diet

>>42361645
As a vegan myself, fuck you.

It has been well documented that 1g/lb of lean body mass is a good recommendation

you claiming " The articles you read is muscle mags are paid for by the dairy industry."
makes me so fucking angry you don't even know. It's obvious no one told you that and
you just made that shit up by yourself. Think about it, why the fuck would the dairy
industry pay for research that only targets a very small demographic. Yes, it is true that
animal industries have funded studies to try to suggest animal products are healthy when
in fact they aren't, but how fucking stupid do you have to be tell yourself they would fund
something so insignificant to the 99 %of their potential market. it's goddamn insulting you
expect anyone to believe your bullshit. Not everyone is as void in common sense as you,
so don't expect other to believe you. And instead of lying, you could have just said that
it's not actually hard to get enough protein on a vegan diet (I eat 195g of protein as a
vegan while only getting about 50g of those 195g from protein powders), but instead
you lied like a immature moron to push your agenda. Just because you're fighting for
what is right, doesn't mean you're suddenly granted the ability to lie.

>>42370683
You are incredibly naive.

Dairy sales are project to decline about $16 billion dollar globally in the next 3 years. Investors generally base valuations on market growth, so the dairy industry is desperate to correct this. Protein supplements are an $8 billion dollar industry and they want as much of it as they can get.

These companies have put people on USDA advisory boards. They put people into university chairs. They put people in editor positions at newspapers and magazines. You think they wouldn't bother to pay for broscience articles? You think muscle mags, knowing peddlers of a huge amount of bullshit, wouldn't take their money?

Corporate behavior is simple. If doing a thing will oncrease profit, do it. Spending $1 to get $1.01 back is the right choice whether the market is big or small.