Strength training is a meme

I think the main reason Strength programmes are recommended for beginners is because they allow you to learn the big lifts while making some noticable progress on them.

I honestly believe that is a split is better aesthetic-wise.

>>41602046
But why should you spend 2-6 months just improving 6 basic lifts?
Will you not be able to learn how to squat if you do it 1x week in your leg day?

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>>41602019

Those programs are better suited for people who have no athletic background and therefor have very little strength. If you are fairly weak, these programs are good at developing good form and proper knowledge of compound lifts, rather than the approach some beginners take by going into the gym and fucking with machines. I have no doubt that beginners can do bro splits and see good progress but as far as strength gains go, programs like SS and SL are superior to developing good strength gains in the main lifts because of the frequency/volume. If you want to do a split, then do a split. But the average beginner will progress much faster by developing a good strength base first rather than fuck around on cables and machines as they wont help develop a solid physique quite like compound lifts will.

Do what you like, but these programs are tried and true.

Train however you want; Starting Strength isn't called Starting Aesthetics for a reason.

>>41602019
It's good for people who have no fucking clue what to do at all and just want to have SOMETHING easy to follow

>>41602085
What I'm failing to understand is how this strength is going to translate into aesthetics later on.
I am not saying SS/SL don't work strength wise, or that people don't get aesthetic while doing them and that's why they are bad. They obviously work at strength or they wouldn't be spammed all the time.

I just don't see how boosting your compound lift numbers will help you get aesthetic later on.

Anyway I feel like my OP may be a little bait-ish so this is a general routine thread now.

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>>41602130

Not bait, Its asked on here a lot and I can understand why its confusing. What im saying is, if you want to be a big strong boy, you have to move heavy weight. You are thinking too short term as do most beginners. You will not have your aesthetics for a long time to come so look at SS and SL as investments in a sense. Sure, you're not going to look like connor murphy after doing programs like SS and SL, but even if you do a bro split you wont either. If you take a kid and put him on a bro split and put a clone of the kid on SS, the kid on SS at the end of 1 year will almost certainly be much stronger - therefor he will have a much stronger base to be able to build good quality muscle because contrary to what faggots on here say strength DOES correlate with aesthetics. Im telling you OP, get your mind off of training for "aesthetics" and start thinking about building an overall athletically performing, strong physique and after you advance you can incorporate more hypertrophy training. Think about it like building a house, you dont start building a house by painting it, you start by putting in framing and studs, you build a strong base. THEN you put finishing touches.

>>41602205
I've been on /fit/ for like a year, I managed to lose 20kg just with calories in/calories out. I kinda know all that and it makes sense to me, it just surprises me that all the ripped people I know IRL have never even heard of these things. All the pics online of people with good bodies don't mention SS/SL, even here on /fit/ if you got to CBT the good looking guys didn't so this. It's weird.

I'll probably do SL anyway since it's simple af and I feel like adding weight on the bar every time will motivate me, but my friend kept arguing how I could build both muscle and strength on his split routine.

is that conor

>>41602270
Who else has that body bro? Given he photoshops all his pics, but still.

>>41602263

In all fairness your friend probably isn't wrong, and if you absolutely hate doing SL then move to a split. IMO if you are at least hitting each muscle group 2x a week, and you are putting an emphasis on your compound lifts and are stressing progressive overload, you will make strength gains. Just make sure your diet is in check as this is 2/3 the battle. To put it in quantitative terms you can understand, if you are benching under 150lbs, squatting under 200, and deadlifting under 250lbs, you have really no business doing a split... but thats just my advice. do whatever da fuk u wan do

>>41602318
Fair enough bro.
So do you speak from experience with any of this? Did it work for you? How is your physique now? Current routine?

>>41602019
For a natural althete, training for strength *is* the best way to add muscle mass. That is the crucial point.

And every muscle of the body is trained on SS if you add in chins (honestly, as a beginner, if you are performing chins twice a week, extra bicep work isn't necessary). That said, feel free to add *some* extra accessory work. The thing to bear in mind is that it shouldn't affect your ability to perform the main lifts at the next session.

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>>41602336

Yes it worked for me. I played football in highschool and coaches had us doing routines with similar frequency/volume as programs like SS and SL and thats how i made most gains. Current routine is layne nortons PHAT but that should not be a consideration for you right now because it has a lot of volume and is not suited for a beginner.

>>41602318

"Deadlifting" or "benching" x is irrelevant to both looks and health.

SS-type programs are easy to follow for beginners, and that's it.

>>41602019
>>41602364
Just to add:
If you're a beginner like yourself, and you don't start with something like SS, you're short changing yourself. You'll eventually realise this for yourself. Either because you focussed on strength training, and became bigger than 90% of your gym's population in less than a year. Or because you focussed on a "split" for "aesthetics", and have made small progress and other more competent trainees in your gym are progressing much faster

>>41602368
Ok bro pics don't lie.
SL for 2 months or till no more progressive overload? And then follow a template or pick make something based on where I'm lagging?

This board really should have 1 /beginners? mega thread, instead half the threads are pol and r9k leaks.

>>41602387
Why would you pick something suboptimal just cause it's easier?

>>41602364
Fuck, I forgot to tell my friend about accesories. That would fix his argument of the program not aiding your aesthetic exercises in the long run.

>>41602387

It's not "irrelevant" you mong, yes they are easy to follow but they structure of the program is specifically suited for people trying to increase strength and performance on compound lifts you retard.. which in my opinion is pretty fucking relavent to "both looks and health"

>>41602368

Connor is on juice so he can do whatever he fucking wants and he is still gonna get better gains for you, there is a reason many bro roiders do non compound lifts, why stress about it since you get gains from juice anyways.


If you are natural and you arent training your main compound lifts for strength its either you are retarded DYEL or advanced lifter so it doesnt matter anymore.

I have never done over 5 reps on my compound lifts( BARBELL bench, OHP, deadlift and squat) and I look like pic related.

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1) Strength and mass are directly proportional, it's literally impossible to be strength training, and gaining weight, and not gain lean mass as a novice lifter.

2) Strength based routines are more efficient, the amount of actual sets and reps you have to do to get a good workout is just less

3) Strength based routines are way more fun. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy standing around doing 15 reps on curls, 20 reps leg curling, then 20 cable crossovers or whatever boring shit bodybuilders do. Deadlifting, benching, squatting, and pressing overhead heavily is much more enjoyable.

4) All bodybuilders do powerlifting movements. Ronny did heavy squats, and deadlifts, and it was instrumental in his insane size. All bodybuilders have huge benches because pec size and benchpress correlate very very closely.

5) All powerlifters, weightlifters, and strongmen are fucking jacked. They only reason you may not think this is because you have only payed any attention to the super heavyweights, who have a ton of fat because it lets them maintain even more lean mass. Go look at what any of these athletes that are around 100kg bodyweight or less.

"splits", which is a nebulous term and basically just means "boring high rep pussy routine" are utterly pointless. The ONLY reason to do them is if you absolutely need to avoid injury because your life depends on whether or not you can maintain your physique perfectly. So basically professionals only.

A generic strength routine of squats, deadlift, bench, overhead press, rows, and a couple accessories thrown in at your own discretion will be more interesting, efficient, enjoyable, and effective than a "bro-split" for any new lifter.

>>41602426
you really think connor murphy is on steroids? jesus christ dude you need to not believe everything you read on this board. Go ahead, do your hammer press machines and smith machine squats for your "aesthetics", ill stick to my compound lifts and moving heavy weight.

>>41602426
Current routine?
Are we 100% conor is juicing btw?

>>41602390
I doubt anyone on SS/SL will become huge in a year.

>>41602459
>>41602426

nevermind read your reply completely wrong. Sorry anon you are right, not about murphy being on roids though, atleast in my humble opinion

Here's what you need to do:

Run SS at a 500 calorie surplus, and make sure you get AT LEAST 8-10 hours of sleep every night. Stretching daily is also a good idea (perhaps before bed).

Keep going until you either stall, at which point, deload 5% and bump your caloric surplus to 700, as well as redoubling your efforts to get sleep in.

If you stall 3 times on a lift, and you know each time that you've been eating and sleeping adequately, then you're finished with the programme and need to move on to an intermediate one.

>>41602415

You don't need to deadlift or bench at max effort to gain strength or size.

No, it's not necessary and I don't think anyone's ever said that dumbass

>>41602461

No he's just bigger than every natty lifter ever, and at age 20 at that, because he eats super clean and puts 100% effort into lifting. :)

>>41602501
>I don't think anyone's ever said that dumbass
read this thread

>>41602439
1) That can be debated. Lots of people on these routines claim they don't look like they lift as much as they do.

2) I'll give you that, but that doesn't mean you'll look good doing them.

3) Ok, I give you this. This is the main reason I wanna do SL. I had thise RIPPED dude I know make me a 5day body split. It had a shit ton of exercises I didn't know how to do in the 3x12,8,6 range or smth like that and it was so fucking boring to do.
I'd leave the gym both tired, and unfulfilled.

4) Pros are usually on juice so dunno.

5) No argument here.

>>41602404
>This board really should have 1 /beginners? mega thread

It's called the fucking sticky.

>>41602019
Fullbody 3x a week for optimal strength gains and hypertrophy bud

>>41602404
My situation is pretty similar to yours.
I did SL for a couple of months which was great to get familiar with the big lifts (which you will also need in a split). I would recommend running SL for a while too until you really feel confident about form and all. Make sure to eat well and sleep well as others also said.

After that you can switch to an intermediate program like PPL or split.

Its up to you tho

>>41602495

no you dont, but when you cant even bench 135lbs its pretty optimal in my opinion. Look dude, no one here is saying SS or SL is a do or die way of starting lifting, but they are good programs and are popular for a reason, because they work. Mind posting your physique?

>>41602501
Everyone on r/fitness and /fit/ and half of misc says the same fucking things. Kys bro.

>>41602494
I know how SS works, but thanks.
We're arguing whether it's neccesairy for a beginner.

>>41602521
Is he THAT big?

>>41602539
Nice meme my friends. Cause the sticky covers 100% all the questions that a new comer needs. /sarcasm

>>41602556
How has your progress been? Both in lift numbers and on your body.

you don't need to be X to be X big;

As long as progressive overload is there (and you eat enough to allow growth), you will become bigger

A powerlifting routine absolutely ISNT necessary for aesthetics, but it will give you some size gains coupled with good strength gains.

You can get big without ever touching heavy barbells just by incorporating enough resistance through time-tension control, unfavourable leverages etc., but SS is quite simple and hits most things decent-ish (not in the most optimal way but still), so it can be recommended to newbies who wouldn't know what they're doing anyway.

You may aswell go the path of the Scoober who exclusively trains lightweight but with really weird exercise to minimize injury risk; as long as you can progressively overload a movement/tension on your muscles while eating big you will get bigger until your T-levels inhibit further growth

>>41602439
This but fuck heavy pressing

>>41602647
oh meant to say "You don't need to lift X to be a certain size". Which is quite obvious, you can get big without even touching deadlifts

>>41602556
>>41602595

I did SL for maybe 3 months. Before that I was full blown skeleton mode at about 55kg (180cm). In the beginning I couldn't even lift the bar but I managed to increase my lifts to 40kg OHP, 55kg bench, 85kg squat and 110kg deadlift in a pretty short while and I gained around 15kg lean mass.
These stats are nowhere near impressing ofcourse but for a beginner SL is great to let you get used to lifting and dieting in general.

>>41602684
Holy shit dude, had you just come to Europe from Ethiopia?
How the fuck were you 55kg? I'm your height and 75kg and people already tell me to not lose more weight.

Well I'm gonna start from the bar, so your stats look decent to me. Did you notice any body changes in these 3 months?

>>41602647
So you're saying SS/SL will get you big?

>>41602684

Deadlifting 60 kgs to failure 3 times a week would also get you to 110 kgs deadlift. Cable work would also give you a 40kg OHP.

So you're not making the argument that SS is better that some other regiment, but that it is better than inactivity.

>>41602735
Wel he is a beginner so he can only talk from his experience.
What's a good routine for beginners then?

>>41602709
it will get you stronger than it will get you big, but it will get you a bit bigger, although not nearly as efficient as something with more volume and less emphasis on compounds would

SS + much more hypertrophy volume accessory work would be good, but the strength progress will most likely be less good

>>41602019
>can any of you fags here PROVE that strength foundation (SS/SL/etc) are necessairy for a beginner who wants to get in hypetrophy?
It's not.
>If you have 0 interests in Powerlifting why would you waste your time there?
I don't know.
>Also, all the good progress pics I've seen were never with people who started with SS/SL it was with people who jumped straight into a split.
Same.

>>41602019
I am literally triggered by aesthetic fags. Do you care so little about what your body can accomplish? Sad.

>>41602019
If you are seriously overweight, you are better off doing bodyweight exercises. Mainly because you have a lot of bodyweight and it allows you to avoid being seen in public. You can even do it all day while browsing 4chan.

There's this weird obsession with teaching yourself. According to everyone on the internet, the only way you can learn to lift is by reading SS and watching Youtube videos. Not to mention that just because an exercise is simple doesn't mean it's easy. You forget to keep your back straight for deadlifts one time and you're fucked.

>>41602766
I am literally triggered by liftingfags. Do you care so little about what your body can accomplish? Sad.

t. Marathoner

>>41602752

Ideally you get to a gym with configurable machines with someone who can show you how to set them up, and the weight is adjustable.

But because that's likely not happening, I'd suggest dumbbells and cables, and leg press for legs.

>>41602766
All I want is dat pussy m8

>>41602813
Ok that makes sense.
Thing is, SS is a routine which tells you exactly how to do and how many times.

Given your post, how is a total beginner to understand wtf to do with those dumbbels and the leg press?

>>41602019
Ok so I have a close friend who has been training for about 5 years and has only done bodybuilding brosplits. The guy is yoked beyond belief. He's very strong aswell. Doesn't deadlift or squat (due to fucked knees from soccer) yet he looks better and is bigger and stronger than all my friends that follow specific strength training programs and deadlift religiously (training for a similar amount of time too). He also looks better. So there you go.

>>41602851
inb4 someone accuses him of juicing.

Who would of thought that people focusing on hypertrophy look better

>>41602709
Yeah, plenty of body changes. I was skinny as fuck but once I started bulking and lifting it all started to fill up nicely.
If you are gonna do SL I would suggest doing both bench and OHP every workout, not alternate between those. When I did SL I kept progressing my Deadlift and Squat weight every workout but kept stalling on the upper body lifts. When I stopped SL my upper body looked disproportionally small compared to my legs, so do more upperbody than the routine prescribes. If you do that and maybe some 3x10 dumbbell curls you should be fine.

>>41602883
Imma do it as is for 12 weeks, then add dips or curls later on. Thanks for the advice.

Do you just look less skelly now, or do you look like you kind of work out?

>>41602834

The leg press is way easier than the squat to learn, what are you talking about.

And you can literally teach people to bench press and do front and lateral raises with dumbbells in one day.

Meanwhile people can be lifting for months and still have shit squat and bench technique.

>>41602851
Does he follow a routine or does he make up his own workouts?

>>41602684
>15k lean mass in 3 months
stack?

>>41602019
I began lifting with SS in feb. I've seen great gains and am very happy with my progress.
You faggots just want to argue.

>>41602081
If you're new to lifting, it's a good way to learn proper form. Everything follows from proper form

>>41602927
That's not what I meant.
I meant he won't know when to do it, how many sets, how many reps etc.

>>41602936
Tell us about those gains anon. Lifts? How is your body compared with how it was back in February? Feel free to share pics to.

>>41602917
People have been asking if I workout and my friends who used to shittalk me for being so skinny are complimenting my progress. I'm still very average but I'm getting there.

>>41603002
Sounds pretty great for 3 months to me.
What are you doing/planning on doing now?

>>41602987
Ive lost 70 lbs, but mainly due to diet. Still a ways to go
Lifts:
155 OHP
225 Bench
255 Squat

I still have a gut but my arms and legs are noticeably leaner and have pretty good definition. I'm really happy with my results.
Im on my phone so i dont have any pics, but when I get home i'll post them if the thread is still up.

>>41603026
ops.
355 dead

>>41603039
>>41603026
A-Are those kg's ?

>>41603047
I wish

>>41603021
Well, right now it has been about 8 months since I started doing SL for the first time. I'm currently doing Coolcidas PPL routine after a pretty long break from lifting because I simply didn't have time anymore. But I finished my exams and I have 3 months of summer vacation so I'm hoping to work out 6 days a week and get big

>>41603039
What the fuck is wrong with your squat? Your bench and dead are miles and miles better than mine but that squat is so weak lol

>>41602368
Fuck off James

>>41602019
What is a split and how does it differ from normal weight lifting? Shouldn't all exercise induce muscle hypertrophy?

>>41602550
That is a beginners workout. You either learned that in the sticky, or your PT told you to do it. You will hit a wall, and you will never get bigger in the end.

>>41604310
What do then?

>>41604124
Must have long legs
I'm weaker than him but I barely squat more than I bench too

>>41602019
Is that guy elliot rogers from another dimension where he got laid

>>41604329
Brosplits combined with strength training, 5 days a week. It's the standard advanced workouts. Figure out how to work each group twice a week, skipping a day, and using the opposite muscle group. i.e. When you work chest, you are also working triceps, so on triceps day, work your chest. etc... You hit each muscle group twice. You could deadlift or squat on that day, and then on leg day do both, plus a different group, such as the ohp. etc, etc, etc.

>>41604351
But be warned, this will be a lot tougher on your body, and diet is imperative. Depending on your goals. It is also going to make your more injury prone, as its a lot of volume, and this is when you start getting into rest weeks. Mostly just to heal a bit.

>>41604351
>standard advanced workouts.

So do this after SS?
Any templates out there to copy?

>>41602928
Nope makes up his own workouts with slight variation on exercise selection each week.

>>41604375
Plenty of bodybuilder shit out there, as this is basically what it is. I don't personally think that you should dedicate yourself to Mondays, chest/triceps, etc. Find the splits that work for you. By now, if you have been doing full body workouts, you should have a firm grasp on body type exercises. Now though, instead of something like 10 sets per group, you are doing AT LEAST 20. Don't push it past 30, in my opinion. 25 is probably a sweet spot, but don't focus too much on the rep count, trying to keep the reps low in the 5ish range, but always pushing as many reps out as you can. Start doing 7 reps? Get a heavier weight.

>>41604412
and really pay attention to form. Again, after your beginner program, you should now have as decent form as you possible can. Maybe tape yourself, and watch, see what you are doing, if you don't have someone to give you feedback a time or two.

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>>41602019
Because there's no pyramid without a foundation.

Strength translate into being big.

If you cut bench 2 plate, squat 3 plate, deadlift 4 plate for 5 reps each and you cut... you WILL be bigger than anyone who did a brosplit for a year...

>>41602019
programs dont matter that much stop being an autist about every little detail

hit every body part twice a week
progressive overload

include bench, dead, squat, ohp. row. pull up

done, the rest doesnt matter, it literally doesnt matter how you divide as long as you hit every body part twice a week 5x5 or 3x8

you can hit legs once a week if you dont care about them atm

>>41604464
and if you cant understand how people make progress on stupid brosplits its because - THE PROGRAM DOESNT MATTER THAT MUCH.

its about how much effort you put in, train hard, dont miss a workout, eat right, sleep a lot = grow.

your not gonna ruin it by doing one little detail wrong like biceps on A instead of your B workout that you rotate every three weeks for maximum muscle stimulation.

fucking retards just put some effort into this you dont need to babble about programs on the internet 24/7 to make gains this is not how you do things its so obvious you mongoloids never did anything right in your entire pathetic existence

>>41604464
Agreed. I think another bit of advice is to stop focusing on rep numbers to be exact. "I will do this weight exactly 12 times" is a gains killer, as it is super hard to get past this mentality. You get lazy, and yeah, you might have been able to do 13 or 14. Instead, you do 12. Biggest hurdle of newish lifters I think.

>>41604514
yes, it realy doesnt matter just make sure you push yourself, drop sets are great for this

>>41602019
No one's going to be huge and ass-tetic starting off curling 5s and squatting the bar. It helps you learn how to load your lifts, how to do it in proper form, and create a strength base because heavier Weights NEED bigger muscles to move them. Why am I even replying this bait.

>>41602019
They are not necessary. The sticky's program are pure shit and doesn't learn you proper bodybuilding.
Stay away from SS/SL etc if you're interested in Bodybuilding

Learn the classic 6-12 rep ranges, hit each body part with various exercises, learn about BB programs (split,push pull legs, half body....) and use the one that suits you.

I never started with SS/SL and i'm good looking

>>41605065
They teach you to get a proper strength foundation you fucking retard

>proper bodybuilding
Bodybuilding is steroids. That's it

>>41602019
The bodybuilding meme is perpetuated by the idiots who follow splits while juicing. What you don't see is all the natty lifters who wasted their time with that shit for years with shitty gains to show for it. Just do SS until you washout of that program, move on to texas method and then cut. You will be fit.

It probably depends on what level the beginner is at. I've known beginners who can hardly smash 8 reps of just the bar on the majority of lifts. I've also known beginners that can start with some weight and do well. SS/SL etc should be for people who can hardly make progress because they can't even use the bar, whereas I see no issues with starting with splits if they've got at least some basic strength to begin with.

>>41602019
There are a couple of reasons why I would recommend some form of Linear Progression based program instead of a body part split.
The first being that it's an understandable program that will get you some form of results practically guaranteed. There is something to be said mentality wise for constantly making discernible progress, which is much easier to do on a LP based program. This constant progress builds confidence within the novice lifter and it reinforces the idea that if you work hard you can get something out of it. Once someone is convinced that results are coming and that it is only a matter of effort then they're much less likely to quit going to the gym for whatever reason.
This confidence and the longevity which comes with it is important for more than just strength reasons because significant hypertrophy takes a good while, and unless you're genetically gifted or truly Auschwitz mode or on some serious shit you won't see large day to day differences or even week to week changes, but will rather see improvements on a month to month level.
On a purely physiological level programming doesn't matter incredibly much (although I believe that a once a week body part split is incredibly inefficient for natural lifters, and most would do better by doing something like an ULULUXX split for the increased protein synthesis) what does matter is that the person trains, and is motivated to continue training as well as pursuing all of the non training factors that also influence size and strength gains (eg proper nutrition, sleep, prehab, potentially massages further down the line)

>>41605676
The simple problem with LP:
Start off with light weight, everything goes fine. Hit your working weight, you struggle for a bit, and stall. Everyone freaks out about you stalling at baby weight and tell you to eat like a fatass. It's a shitshow all because people don't understand that progress at working weights is a lot slower than Rippetoe makes it out to be, you just need to stay at the same weight longer and do more reps.

>>41605732
If you want to gain size and strength you need to eat a shit load, you won't get big if you're not willing to eat big gear or otherwise. The flip side of that is of course you also have to be willing to eventually cut weight, but that's doable.
Progress with working weights is more or less as fast as Rippetoe/Reg Park describes it to be as long as the trainee A) has an athletic background, and B) is willing to eat enough to sustain training. Both of these factors are necessary for someone to go from a 135 pound squat to a 3-400 pound squat in the span of 4-6 months.
If these factors are not present then a lifter would do better to switch to some form of intermediate programming with weekly or month increases in weight.

The lifter will still see some of the psychological benefits of a LP because even if they hadn't gotten as far as they had liked, they still had progressed so to the only thing stopping them from progressing further is a lack of effort or an intervening non training factor. In any case the vast majority of trainees will continue lifting after this setback, which is not the case which I have observed with novice lifters following a bro split, the majority of which I see stop going after a bit for whatever reason, having made very little progress aesthetic or otherwise.

SS/SL isn't the best program to start, but it's so easy to do it's why it's recommended so hard.

CICO isn't the best way to lose fat (protein sparing is king) but it's the easiest to explain. That's it, really.

>>41602426
> gains from juice
No. You lift harder and heavier due to the aggression. The work gives you the gains.

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>>41602019
I've got way better looking body after a 6 month split than after almost a year of 5x5. I switched to 5x5 after the split routine and most of those initial gainz were noob gainz but still. I had enough of that bullshit, going back to the split

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>>41602439

>it's literally impossible to be strength training, and gaining weight, and not gain lean mass

yet pic related is among the strongest people on the planet? If you don't know what you're talking about why bullshit?

strength /= size, the two are trained completely differently

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>>41602019
Fuck I want to weigh in on advice even if this thread is old af.

I recommend doing SS for the sole reason that it will get you strong really fast and strength really does = aesthetics. However, any program you choose to do right now regardless of what type it is and take it to a full year will not get you looking ripped. But SS is a better investment as the cut afterward will get you lean and ripped and if done properly you'll get to keep your strength and be able to do hypertrophy "heavy" sets.

Overall I dont recommend doing SS by the book, because the outcome you get from SS is what ~90% of gymgoers dont want. Most people ignore strength and just want to look good. But as explained earlier looking good means being strong.

So I say do SS but after the main barbell movement add a complimentary hypertrophy exercise that focuses on that muscle group
Example:
-----OHP 3x5
-------db shoulder press 4x8+

People will say this is too much volume which is not that case youre getting the best of both worlds a strength set and a hypertrophy set. And since youre a beginner the weight is still light enough to manage all this. And even then if time is managed efficiently your entire session will be always be <1hour 30min.
At the end of the week add a cardio day. Cardio is important to your overall physique especially if youre bulking. It keeps the fat gains down and running/jogging is great for overall core development (abs and obliques)
A cardio day should look like this:
------Run or jog 3miles
---------Pull ups and chinups (work to getting to 10bw with strict form)
-----------Pull ups crunches (any and all variations you can do).
(A cardio session should not take longer than an 1hour)

My two cents

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>>41602019
>those traps

>>41606177
Brah studies have shown that you can sit on your ass and eat whatever you want with zero exercise while on roids and still make more gains than the natty who is going to the gym and eating perfectly

>>41602019
>Anyway, can any of you fags here PROVE that strength foundation (SS/SL/etc) are necessairy
I cannot, I actually recommend the opposite, lift light go for TUT and volume it worked for me
>>41602439

>1) Strength and mass are directly proportional
look up vlogs of people doing SS that started from nothing and are now squatting >100 kg they're not huge and the people that look decent looked decent before they started training, there are plenty of people that have bigger muscles that don't lift that heavy
https://www.strongerbyscience.com/sarcoplasmic-vs-myofibrillar-hypertrophy/
>2) Strength based routines are more efficient, the amount of actual sets and reps you have to do to get a good workout is just less
efficient at gaining strength, not hypertrophy, "good workout" is very vague

>3) Strength based routines are way more fun. Believe it or not, most people don't enjoy standing around doing 15 reps on curls, 20 reps leg curling, then 20 cable crossovers
you don't speak for most people and you don't have to do that high reps, it's total volume

>4) All bodybuilders do powerlifting movements.
no not all, you're hilariously misinformed there's many that don't just look up frank zane for one example

>5) All powerlifters, weightlifters, and strongmen are fucking jacked.
this argument comes up quite often, you're looking at professionals that have been training for many, many years, and let's skip about steroid use

>"splits", which is a nebulous term and basically just means "boring high rep pussy routine" are utterly pointless. The ONLY reason to do them is if you absolutely need to avoid injury because your life depends on whether or not you can maintain your physique perfectly. So basically professionals only.
yeah, only professionals need to keep their backs, if you're doing heavy lifting without a coach and you don't fuck up your body after a few years then you are very lucky

>>41602684
>15 kg lean mass in 3 months
ok buddy

if you want aesthetics, drop the weight so you fail around 8 reps instead of 5. Hypertropy happens between 6-12 reps as long as you hit failure on the last rep in that range. Keep boosting it 5lbs every workout. Bam, Starting Aesthetics.

>>41602019
From what I can gather. Strength training is good for people who are skinny as fuck, then immediately transition to aesthetic routine after 4-6 months. Or people who doesnt give a shit about looks and just want strength

>>41607225
>6-12
Nah try 8-12

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re are four major factors that will determine how much muscle (and therefore strength) you can ultimately build:
>The size of your frame. Assuming the other measures of skeletal size (breadth and depth) are as heritable as height, about 70-95% of the variation in frame size is explained by heritable factors.
>How many muscle fibers you’re born with. Muscle fiber number is set at birth due to both genetic factors and uterine environment and remains essentially unchanged throughout adulthood. Yes, there’s some evidence for muscle hyperplasia (increase in muscle fiber number, rather than hypertrophy – increased size of the individual muscle fibers – which is the primary route of muscle growth), but for all intents and purposes, you’re stuck with the same number of muscle fibers from the day you’re born until you start gradually losing muscle fibers in old age. If you’re born with fewer muscle fibers, that will cap how much muscle you can ultimately build.
>How well you respond to training. While the studies to date really just show that some people respond better than others to individual training protocols, it’s also undeniable that some people really do just respond better to training in general.
>Whether you take steroids or not. It seems that how well you respond to exogenous hormones is genetically influenced as well. Obviously, steroids make a larger and larger impact with higher doses, but – in general – it seems that steroids help people gain roughly twice as much muscle over the course of a training career.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/genetics-and-strength-training-just-different/

>>41607426
I think this one relates better to this discussion
https://www.strongerbyscience.com/size-vs-strength/
>>41607404
>>41607225
it's total volume not a specific rep range, but it's usually 8 - 12 because before that you're tiring yourself out too much and not breaking down the muscle enough and past that is getting into too light to really do the job effectively

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>>41607426
How much variability is there for getting jacked?

The short answer: A lot.

Before training, about 80% of the total lean mass differences between people can be explained by genetic differences. Of course, lean mass scales with height and weight (both of which are also strongly genetically influenced), but even after controlling for height and weight, genetics still explain about half of the variation in lean mass relative to body size. Other factors related to performance are strongly influenced genetically as well. Height and skeletal structure are, obviously, and about 45% of muscle fiber type distribution seems to be explained by genetic factors (and the non-genetic influences primarily occur during early childhood, which you also don’t have much control over).

Once you add training into the mix, things diverge even more.

In one study, 585 people trained their non-dominant arm for 12 weeks. The study involved 6 sets of curls and triceps extensions, building from 12rm loads to 6rm loads over the course of the study (linear periodization). It wasn’t explicitly stated, but I’m assuming the training sessions were only once per week. On average, the participants’ biceps got about 19% bigger and their 1rm biceps curl increased by about 54%.
However, the range of responses was huge. Several people’s biceps actually got slightly smaller (even though they were untrained at the start of the study), while one person’s got 59.3% larger. The variability in strength gains was even larger, from several people not gaining any strength at all, to one person increasing their 1rm biceps curl by 250%.

>>41607465
Yeah you're right, fit better. More people need to read them, so many questions would be cleared up if people were to stop shitposting for an hour and do some reading.


A ton of factors influence strength beyond muscle size and skill with the movements used to test strength.
>The strength of individual muscle fibers, normalized muscle force, muscle moment arms, and body proportions can all have significant, independent effects on strength.
>Just as there’s massive variability in muscle growth – some people gaining a ton of muscle in response to training, and other people gaining very little – there’s massive variability in strength gains as well.
>Normalized muscle force (how strong a muscle is relative to how large it is) can increase up to 39% for some people and decrease by as much as 5% for others, in response to the exact same training program.
Early on in training, there’s a very weak relationship between gains in muscle and gains in strength.
>Gains in muscle mass may explain as little as 2% of the variation in strength gains for new lifters.
>For more experienced lifters, gains in muscle mass may explain up to 65%+ of the variability in strength gains, highlighting hypertrophy as a key factor for strength gains in trained lifters.
>Training style has a big impact on the ratio of strength you gain relative to size, with heavier training generally producing larger gains in strength.

>>41602368
Stats?

>>41602081
From my experience, the fast linear progression and the recovery helps you in the end when you add more to it, to not fatigue so fast during a workout.

Sl is great base, changed it to 3x5 on all lifts and added accessories.

>>41607649
You didn't like 5x5, or what was the reason for changing ? I myself am on 5x5

>>41605065


>doesn't learn you proper bodybuilding.

>Learn the classic 6-12 rep ranges, hit each body part with various exercises, learn about BB programs (split,push pull legs, half body....) and use the one that suits you.

The point of SS and SL is that they are BEGINNERS programs. Aimed at people with no experience. So it's broken down to the most basic exercises and routines possible.

The idea is that it's a good first step into weight lifting without having to learn a ton of different exercises and routines to figure out what works best.

You've literally said, SS and SL are shit because they are too basic, do a more advanced program if you want better results.

I'm seeing great gains with SS in my legs (had twig legs before I am tall), back, core, shoulders.

Going to add some arm accessories now at the end of my workouts since my arms were always my weak point.

>>41608579
How long have you been on SS?

>>41608650
About two months, but I've done my own 3 day bro split invented routine for 3 months before that and did bodyweight stuff sporadically before that.

Current stats are:

190cm/6'2
78kg/171lbs

ohp 45kg/100lbs
bench 70kg/154lbs
squat 70kg/154lbs
dead 120kg/264kg

this is all for 5

>increase weight on major lifts as often as possible
>eat at a caloric surplus
>make more gains than splitfags AND t-rex's who are too busy arguing about which is better

>>41608675
You probably not pushing yourself enough maybe due to flaws in technique. Not the guy who asked but I was 3 months in and did:
OHP: 50 3x5
Bench: 72.5 3x5
Squat: 97 3x5 (even though they were good morning squats)
Deadlift: 115x5
172 cm/62 kgs
Gained 8 kilos since started. I was on and off for quite sometime now, restarting this week and deloading my squats down to 85 kgs and working on perfecting technique.

> Not to mention that the bits that you want to look better (like your biceps) aren't directly involved so you'll still be weak there.

Any good beginner routine has weighted Chin ups and/or rows 2-3 times a week. on top of that you can add a set of curls every day if you want

>>41608771
I am still increasing my weight on these lifts at a steady pace, just OHP and bench is slowing down since OHP is a cunt and bench because I almost decapitated myself twice recently.

>>41608771
>>41608864
I should also mention that the smallest plates my gym has are 2.5kg so whenever I want to jump on ohp or bench I have to do it in 5kg increments which also sucks major balls. Also no dip belt.

>>41602485
Your opinion is a worthless dyel opinion then because he is/was 100% on roids
If you cant see that, lift for a few more years dyel kid