/Fasting/ General

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nice general

22:2 window here. cutting has never been easier
running an 800 cal deficit and the fat is just melting off

usual routine is wake up, prepare all my calories for the day, eat a third of it, lift, eat the rest.

anybody thinking of trying it - I strongly recommend it. combined with yohimbine+caffeine intense cardio in the afternoon I'm seeing visible changes wayy faster than eating 6 small meals a day bullshit.

don't fall for the "fasting is a meme" posters, shit works and you need to do it.

I'm the guy who fasted all of last week.

For the next few weeks I'm going to try a six hour eating window on lifting days (M/T/T/F) and fasting the rest of the time.

How's your fast going, OP?

>>41025113
22:2 is exactly what I'm on my man. Had a killer workout this morning trying to take advantage of the HGH and just ate right after for the first time in 5 days!

You're basically doing a lighter version of the Warrior Diet with less calories. Thank you so much for the positive comment, these mean a lot to me.

>>41025153
Just ended it my man, lasted about 132hrs. I'm going to a 22:2, or more like a 23:1, one meal a day. 6:18 is a very nice routine I'm sure you'll find great success with it. It's so much easier this way than counting calories and eating like a rabbit all day. I haven't counted a single calorie since like 20lbs ago.

>>41025207
I mean I am conscious about my calories but very crudely. I'm way more worried about what macros I'm getting.

>>41025207
Nice. What did you eat?

I'm more excited about the longer fasts I'll be doing. Between the eating windows on Tuesday and Thursday is 42 hours, and between Friday and Monday is 66.

>>41025207
>I haven't counted a calorie
Not going to make it

>>41025251
Forgive me any fasters lurking, but this is what I ate:

Half a can of corned beef and hash in a bowl with 4 sunny side up eggs broken on top and a tall glass of milk with protein powder.

>I'm more excited about the longer fasts I'll be doing.
Yeah thats interesting. You've definitely got a winning regiment there. Not sure if I'm going to go back to EF anytime soon, maybe.

>>41025303
Yeah it'll be at least a few months before I consider another extended fast lol

>>41025338
Haha, don't get me wrong though. That fast was one of the best decisions I have made in a very long time. I'm craving the right foods, I'm not nearly as hungry anymore, my body is acclimated to burning its fat stores. I have more energy, I feel sharper. It feels good man.

I just wish some employers would give me a call, I have so much free time. Going to a job fair on Thursday so hopefully that goes well.

I'm starting fasting this week. My goal is 2-3 times a week.

I've fasted once before and I liked it. 210 lbs 5'11 here, and I want to drop down to 180 lbs.

On days I'm not fasting, I'm going to try to only have one meal a day. Worried about my energy levels though..

>>41025386
Once your body gets acclimated you'll have plenty of energy, approximately ~2000 calories of it. Just take it easy until you know what you can do, drink lots of water and some salt water throughout the day. A cup of black coffee is always nice for a boost of energy and has been shown to boost autophagy.

Don't get yourself down if you can't make longer fasts at first, every hour you fast is great for your body!

Thinking about trying my first EF, how long would you say a good time is for a beginner? granted im in school right now and dont want to be completely out of focus for a long time with finals coming up.

>>41025456
You don't need to push yourself too hard. Really it depends on how many fats are in your diet already. If you are already eating a lot of fats then your body will switch to eating stored fat much easier.

So you can start by switching your diet to high fats, or you can start by eating once or twice a day in an 8 hour window or something similar. The main concern is compliance to the lifestyle and ultimately success with it.

You will have headaches and be a cranky fucker at first, again depending on your original diet. I would recommend easing into it like recommended above and really pushing yourself on the weekends especially since finals are coming up.

>>41025022
>black coffee
I assume black tea is OK?

>>41025381
>I'm craving the right foods
>beef
>eggs
>milk
sure you are, buddy

>>41025574
dumb vegan

>>41025590
smarter than you

>>41025551
Yep, from what I've read tea is absolutely fine. Just stay away from artificial sweeteners, sugars, and any calories. Minimal calories is fine, say 10-20 per cup, but it will cause an insulinogenic effect which is what we're trying to get away from.

If it helps you stick to the fast then god speeds.

>>41025574
I'm a poor fag so I do the best with what I can. Looking for work at the moment.

>>41025600
not with that b12 deficiency you aren't

>>41025022

If counting calories doesn't matter, can I eat a lot of protein and healthy fats (let's say about 3000 kcal a day) in 8 hour window and avoid carbs and still lose body fat? My maintenance calorie intake is about 2500kcal.

I'm resistance training 4 times a week and I want to avoid muscle loss.

>>41025637
Low tier bait

>>41025604
there's cheaper per calorie and not as health-detrimental foods out there than what you mentioned. it's a poor excuse.
>>41025632
>implying I don't supplement b12

>>41025637
Don't worry about muscle loss. Read this for some confidence in what I'm about to tell you:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-muscle-mass-fasting-part-14/

The HGH released will maintain your muscle mass and bone density. The body will harvest protein from itself using autophagy and reallocate those nutrients. If you do an IF, say eat one meal a day and fast until the next day, you can get all your amino acids there.

The body will go for fat stores first on a fast. That is what it is there for. People have this notion that the body will go into "starvation mode" and eat its own muscle and shut down the brain, that doesn't happen.

Say you are a caveman and you haven't eaten in a day or two. The body shuts down. You die and we aren't here to write about it today. The body is smarter than that. Instead, the body digs into its fat stores, powers you up, bolsters brain power, and gives you plenty of energy so that you can get out there and hunt a woolly mammoth.

Exercising will also minimize muscle and bone density loss. Just drink a lot of water and salt water.

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If there are any lurkers we could use a bump

>>41025022
I think you should keep on going with these threads. I was doing IF a couple of years ago with really good success. I spent all day yesterday reading your post and the articles in it and now I'm shooting for a 7 day EF. I'm right now on hour 30.

The more I read about autophagy, the more interested I am with it. Literally turning the clock back on your body. Eliminating plaque in your arteries and everything.

I've done a number on my body over the last 3 years due to stress from work, and I'm finally motivated to get back to where I was. Thanks for this.

>>41025022
So what exactly happens to your body when you're fasting 16:8? During the fasted state, yoru body basically eats at the fat reserves instead of glucose in your body?

What's the difference between eating 2k calories throughout the day and eating 2k calories within the 8 hour eating window?

Please explain..

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>>41025973
insulin manipulation is the purpose of IF.

imo 16:8 is pretty useless. it's borderline normal eating. if you want effective results you need to have an eating window of a few hours

>>41025973
Give me a minute buddy I'll explain the whole theory, it involves insulin.

>>41025924
Thank you, man.

>>41025973
The problem with eating throughout the day is that you are always in a feeding state and your body never has a chance to go into its fast stores.

As you eat, insulin is released. After a while your cells will build up an insulin resistance. You will therefore need to eat more food, and more insulinogenic foods (refined carbs like sugars) to get enough insulin. This is the vicious cycle that leads to diabesity (diabetes and obesity).

By eating within a set window you are minimizing your insulin levels. You will balance your insulin tolerance to a more healthy level and won't need as much insulin anymore to get the same effect.

I've explained this much better in the past, I hope this helps, though.

>>41026051
Pretty poor showing. You are thinking about the body like an all or nothing mechanism. If you eat throughout the day and eat under TDEE, guess what, your body will use the nutrients from the food you digest AND use fat stores. Using IF as a tool to lower hunger and focus meals is fine, but it isn't a miracle

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>>41025857
that comic hit me right in the feels

>>41025022
Ship you guys still drink water and eat a breakfast?

>>41026069
If you eat throughout the day under your TDEE your body will lower its metabolism to compensate. This is what causes the yo-yo effect.

You cannot pull fat out of storage while insulin is present.

>>41026079
>Ship
Meant to say "do"

>>41026079
That's completely up to you. Water is mandatory, but if you want to eat breakfast that would be a version of IF. If that is your only meal it would be a 1:23 variation. That is 1 hour eating : 23 hours fasting.

>>41026104
And this is the moron you guys take advice from ITT, LOL

>>41025924
By the way! I am also fascinated with autophagy but I can't seem to find any good real information on it. I did find one study where coffee increased the effects of autophagy in mice, though:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24769862

If you find any good studies and post them here I would greatly appreciate it.

>>41025857
why is herbert the pervert in this comic?

>>41026104
So are you saying that if i eat the same amount of carbs throughout the day vs in my feasting window, I will inevitably burn more fat since I am raising my insulin sensitivity?

>>41025022
On my 50th hour feeling good so far
Went to the gym today and lifted my usual amount without any issue

>>41026232
If you don't want to give up the carbs at least try to stay away from refined carbs. Things like sugars, cereals, bread, they are terribly insulinogenic. Try to go for the whole grains and fruits.

That being said if you eat those carbs in your feeding window and fast until the next time you eat then yes, you will be much better off as you are giving your body more time to balance its insulin resistance since there is less hormonal stimulation.

You are only craving those carbs because you have the insulin resistance. You will find that once you start lowering that resistance you will not crave those carbs as much. However, it may be easier to turn down the carbs but you will have to make the conscious decision to switch your diet to healthier foods like sat fats, proteins, and whole grains, vegetables and fruits.

>>41026293
If i were to eat at subway, which bread would you recommend?

>>41026265
Good shit, my dude. Thanks for the bump.

>>41026323
Honestly, I have no idea, I'm sorry. All I know is that bread's are sometimes dyed to make them look like whole grains. I would research which breads at subway are actually made from whole wheat and are not refined. If there are any. Sorry.

>>41025604
>artificial sweeteners
They're actually okay (some of them anyway). Stevia's the best, but pretty goddamn expensive - 1 250g tub is like £5 (1kg of sugar is £1).

https://www.ruled.me/ketogenic-diet-food-list/

(Ctrl+f sweetener, there's a whole section to it)

>>41026672
Hmm, I'll give it a read. To my understanding artificial sweeteners can be insulinogenic even though they have 0 calories. They also will cause you to crave more food, but I'll take a gander at your link.

>>41026323
eat a salad

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>>41025704
What's the ideal feeding/fasting ratio? Or, to put it another way, at what point does the body kick into fat-eating mode?

Can you eat more than one meal (say you're doing 20/4) in a for hour period and still benefit or does everything have to be one meal?

>>41026699
http://www.sugar-and-sweetener-guide.com/glycemic-index-for-sweeteners.html

0 glycemic index.

>>41026724
>What's the ideal feeding/fasting ratio?
0:24 lol. But if you want to eat 1:23 is great as well. If you are doing a 4:20 then yeah you can eat your meals however you like in those 4 hours. This is where counting calories comes into play, eat as little as you think you can handle. Also stay away from calories in your fasting state.

>>41026672
Yeah, that sounds great. That would be my main concern is depleting your glycogen stores without actually getting any food in your body. This would cause you to get hungry as fuck to replace the glucose. But if they have a low glycemic index I don't see any reason why you couldn't use them sparingly, that is if there isn't any other effects on the hormones that should also be considered. Thanks for the read, I'll definitely look more into it.

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Hey i'm new to this so i have a couple of questions regarding fasting that might seem simple or stupid but i just want to confirm some things

1.Is it a good idea to fast while bulking? from what i understood from reading the OP is that it helps burn fat but does it affect muscle gain while eating over the TDEE during a bulk?

2.Let's say im doing a 20:4 does that mean every day i designate 4 hours where i eat all the calories i need and the other 20 only include water/tea/coffe?

3.what type of xx:y do you recommend during a bulk (if fasting is applicable to bulking anyway) and what do you recommend during a cut?

Thanks in advance.

>>41026898
Oh and lastly does 24:0 mean you don't eat at all for the entire day or does it mean that you only eat once a day?

173 x 95kg, I lift three times a week and I'm beginning keto (2000kcal daily), should I try fasting as well? How do I make it work with my keto regiment?

>>41025857
Is there a version without the anti semitism? Not that the Gems aren't behind this, but I want to show this to people and still have their respect.

>>41027004
Well I'm not familiar with keto but I should be able to help. Are you trying to lose weight, whats your bmi?

>>41026898
Give me a min.

>>41027004
I did a 20/4 on keto and lost about 20 pounds over 6 weeks.

>>41025022
Saw a thread yesterday am currebtly about 16 hours in since the last time ive eaten. Cant decide if i want to go all the way to tomorrow morning or want to eat now. As a point of reference its been about 9 hours since i woke up

>>41025022
Sorry, I'm new to this. Is the saying "your body can only absorb x amount of protein in one sitting" bullshit?

Because if I want to do intermittent fasting, that would mean I would have to eat about 1900 calories in one meal pretty much. If I were to eat 1900 calories in one meal, would my body absorb all those proteins, or would 50% of it go to waste?

>>41027023
30% bodyfat, 31kg/m^2 BMI.
Keeping in mind I'm pretty new to this and I don't know how dieting works, my worries are not much about keto but rather how calories counting factor in fasting. According to the calculators I should take 2k cal per day (25% deficit), if I fast do I take the same amount or does it have to be smaller due to eating all my intake in the span of a few hours?
>>41027039
Good to know, thanks for sharing. Is 20/4 good for a beginner?

>>41026947
1. I'm not really comfortable with the variants that consider gaining muscle mass. I'm losing weight and that is my focus. I would not be the best person to ask. But yes, in theory, as long as you are consuming higher than your TDEE in those 4 hours you will gain muscle mass.

2. Yep you nailed it.

3. Again, this really isn't my specialty. I will know much more in a week or so when I start researching this myself to gain mass. Sorry.

>>41027016
Nope, I found this a long time ago when I was a /b/ degenerate.

>>41027086
The beautiful thing about losing weight on IF is that you can eat as little as you can handle and the rest of your TDEE will be fulfilled by body fat. Counting calories isn't quite as important but should still be considered.

So yeah, you're also eating a lot of fats so you will acclimate to the IF very nicely. As long as you understand the feeding and fasting windows and what you're doing in them you are good to go, my dude.

>>41026947
>Oh and lastly does 24:0 mean you don't eat at all for the entire day or does it mean that you only eat once a day?

Forgot to answer this. I was only joking, its not a real thing. 24:0 in my eyes just means fasting and not eating, lol. Might as well be an EF.

>>41027134
Thanks man. So when starting out I should just focus on eating as much as I can and my body fat will just take care of the remaining cal intake?

Tips regarding feeding and fasting windows/general beginner stuff? I'm gonna check the sites on the OP in the meantime

>>41026805
>eat as little as you think you can handle
But what about meeting your macro levels? If you're aiming for 170g protein that's 700 calories just for that (4 calories/g). Obviously that's not taking into account fats and carbs.

>>41025022
Am I supposed to do my workout before, after or during my feeding period?

>>41027203
>eating as much as I can
Well eat below your TDEE so that you know you are going to lose weight. Lets say your maintenance is 2500 you should aim for around 1250 or so, whatever you are comfortable with.

Choose a ratio; 4:20, 6:18, 8:16. In your feeding window is when you consume all of your calories. In your fasting window you don't have any calories but you can have things like coffee, water and tea. Some people like stevia, I'm not going to recommend it but if it helps you stay on your regiment we can make sacrifices.

It doesn't matter when your feeding time is during the day. Could be in the morning or at night, doesn't matter.

>>41025022
I know most sources sat breastfeeding women shouldn't IF, but would 14:10 really be that bad? Trying to recomp but fat loss has been slow

>>41027211
For losing weight they're not as important. You just want to stay away from refined carbs and processed meats. Gaining muscle mass I would assume you want lots of protein and sat fats. Other than fruits, carbs don't really do anything for you, they're not essential.

>>41027103
>>41027158
Thanks for your time,will mess with fasting a bit and see how it affects my bulk.

I was reading on yesterday's thread on optimizing your fasted workout and eating right after and it's effects on hgh and igf ... do you have a link to an article on that or more information?

>>41027302
I am not a doctor so you should take my advice with a grain of salt and research this for yourself, that said:

I would go 12:12. 14:10 won't do much for you. And I'm comfortable with recommending this because in the early 1900's and 1950's this is how everyone ate. They would all get together at 6-7pm, have dinner and fast until they broke their fast at *break-fast*. Thats almost 13 hours of fasting.

You should have no problem but please research it some.

>>41027326
Awesome and NP. Let us know how it goes and what you find out.

>>41027335
Its called the Warrior Diet, I'll look for a link.

>>41027382
Yeah I mean eating between 9 am and 7 pm is a pretty normal schedule but not eating in the evening is surprisingly hard while bf and I'm always worried about fucking up my milk supply. Thanks for the input

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>>41027417
No problem, best of luck.

>>41025704

Thanks, I appreciate it!

Can your body absorb most nutrients when eating 1900 calories in one meal?

>>41027478
I don't see any reason why not. Fiber slows down the digestive process so you might want to take a fiber supplement or eat some fruits higher in fiber. That will make the food pass slower and allow more time for absorption.

>>41026724
It takes about 12 hours to go into fasting mode. Optimal amount is up to you and your goals. IMO you should start with 16:8

>>41027478
>>41027499
To be honest I have no idea how those guys eat all their TDEE in one meal, sounds impossible unless you're eating refined carbs, and those are terrible for your insulin levels. Maybe a necessary trade-off? Probably not.

>>41027511
How far into fasting triggers HGH release? 12 hours?

So you guys are literally eating nothing for weeks at a time? Or am I completely misunderstanding what is going on here?

>>41027630
I don't know.

No one posts pics or stats. No one has reported their long term progress. No one has even shown results.

It's all people talking about their fasting plans without actually having done anything.

>>41027511
"fasting mode" would be when the glycogen stores are depleted and the body goes for fat storage, form my understanding that is around 6 hours.

>>41027621
Here is a good article on it.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone-physiology-part-3/

IIRC it says around 24 hours, usually in the morning it spikes.

>>41027630
Some of us are. Usually around 3-6 days. I just ended a 5 day fast. Most of us are doing an IF variation that allows you to still eat and fast.

>>41027663
Yeah its very poorly documented. I'm sorry. You have to take a leap of faith but all the science can be fact checked. I know for me personally my 5 day fast was one of the best things I've ever done. But that is anecdotal. It also depends heavily on what your goals are, these threads are geared for weight loss as that is my priority. I will have a before and after pic in a week or so and it will be fucking glorious.

>>41027630
No. Most of us are simply not eating for most of the day.

Say you go to bed at 11pm and wake up at 7, that's 8 hours. Then, we don't eat (we can drink water and black tea/coffee - it's not an Islamic fast) for x hours, say another 10 hours.

That's 18 hours without food. For the remaining 6 hours until bedtime, we can eat as normal. This is Intermittent Fasting (IF). Fasting goes hand in hand with cutting for obvious reasons, but you can even bulk as long as you're at a surplus, and fasting has its own benefits for bulking like higher levels of test/HGH.

Some people might not eat for a whole day or multiple days. That's an Extended Fast.

In both cases, we cycle on and off. This is up to the user. 1 day on/one day off; 2 days on/1 day off; 2/2; 3/1; etc.

Had my last meal at 7pm tonight, gonna start IF tomorrow I'll do an 8/16, I'm gonna lift tomorrow at around mid day, does this mean I should eat between 11 am and 7pm then nothing till the following day?

>>41028040
Yep, that will do just fine. You could even do 3pm-11pm or something like that. You can put your 8 hour feeding window where ever you like.

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>>41025022
Why aren't there any serious studies?
Why is this so obscure?
Why are people only citing that intensive dietary management and Jason Fung stuff?
I need complex endocrinology studies and explanations. Proof of how much muscle is wasted during fasting compared to normal cut.
Why is muscle spared during fasting? there still is cell damage that needs repair, especially if you're still lifting. The protein has to come from somewhere.

Not here to shill for the nonbeliever, i just want scientific proof and help.
I'm at 18-20% bf, i wish to use fasting to melt most of my fat off and retain the little muscle i do have.

>>41026293
Read about cinnamon and insulin resistance. It's been proven 1g of cinnamon per day lowers serum insulin by 18-35%. Too lazy to link you up, friend.

>>41028335
There are lots of mouse studies. There are no human studies because it's mostly a longevity thing that has to be done for a long period, and when you work out the equivalent calorie restriction for a human it's starvation low which means less interest. There is meant to be some unpublished rearch involved in trade secrets/patents but it's unpublished so eh.

>>41028390
Will do.

>>41028335
There aren't a lot of studies because there isn't a lot of monetary interest in fasting. You can't make money telling people not to eat and you can't sell pills to healthy people. Its a sad truth. I mean you can sell a book on fasting but that's a pittance to the cash the hospitals, pharmaceuticals and food industries are making off of fat people.

There are studies, and I hear you. My main source is Dr. Fung because he's the only one going against the grain. Almost all the professionals in his field are prescribing insulin and feeding the problem. He's a Renaissance man and I will never apologize for respecting him as much as I do.

I will try to find more studies for you, I only have an under-graduate understanding of human physiology, but every now and then a nutritionist or dietician will check me on my information. I have revised my understanding plenty of times from various academic anons input.

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>>41028433
I really fucking hate being between Scylla and Charybdis of fat. If i lose all my fat i'll look like one of those Ausschwitz faggots, if i gain more muscle and fat i'll have an even bigger ass, gut and tits. I NEED A FAST WAY OUT. Fasting was my last hope of melting 20kg of fat in 3 weeks and losing only 1.5kg of muscle. Fuck my fucking everything.

Gonna go off myself while bombing a mosque.

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>>41028335
This is a much more in depth explanation of why fasting is so therapeutic. It is a 6 part, 7 hour watch, but it covers 50+ studies that he cites and uses to explain his angle. I have watched them all in their entirety two times over.

Short version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk

Part 1 of the 6 part series on the Aetiology of Obesity.

>>41028533
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0

>>41028483
There are some explanations that HGH increases during fasting but it's not to keep you from wasting away it's because it acts opposite to insulin. It raises bloodsugar as opposed to insulin that lowers it. Not sure about the muscle sparing effect.

I too have SOME endocrinology understanding, but it's very limited as i studied it 2 years ago and it dealt mostly with pathology(dwarfism, hypo/hyperthyroidism, gigantism, testis/ovary pathology, adrenal pathology and such) and not how to manipulate your body to lose weight and get shredded...

>>41028542
HGH definitely plays a role in muscle mass and bone density maintenance, as well as acting antagonistically to insulin. I will try to find the studies we were discussing yesterday.

>>41028533
>>41028541
Today i found a study about how much muscle is lost during fasting compared to a normal cut. The conclusion was a fast loses more muscle, but still not enough not to justify doing it.
A normal cut would lose 0.7kg in 3 months while losing some weight.
While a cut would lose 1.5kg in 27 days while losing about twice the fat in 3 times less time.
But after i posted that study, some anons pointed out the study was done on obese motherfuckers who didn't lift and had other lean body mass compared to the people here.
I'm kinda stuck, because both sides have their arguments.
I like how Superfung argues that losing muscle would be counterproductive to the primitive man as he would not have the strength needed to get food if everytime he fasted due to circumstances he lost a lot of weight.

Please gather all studies whenever you can and everytime you find this thread post them. Ask other anons to do this too, maybe we can find more and more stuff and actually have conclusive independent proof on this subject.

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Who else binge eats every Saturday then fasts on Sunday? Working out great on my cut. I eat 6,000+ calories then make up for it with the fast the next day.

>>41028587
Here is an article for the meantime:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-and-growth-hormone

>This has enormous implications for athletes. This is called ‘training in the fasted state’. Increased nor-adrenalin from fasting will pump you up to train harder. At the same time, the elevated HGH stimulated by fasting should increase muscle mass and make recovery from a workout easier and faster.

>Some protein is catabolized for gluconeogenesis, but the increase in HGH maintains lean mass during fasting.

And if you have a deficiency in HGH:
>HGH deficiency in adults leads to higher levels of body fat, lower lean body mass (sarcopenia) and decreased bone mass (osteopenia).

Its fairly well known. I'll try to find the studies, though.

>>41028603
Absolutely, everyone should dedicate a Word Document to Links and Studies. I can't believe I haven't been doing this already. I do have some but they're all Dr. Fung and we need cross-references.

>>41028604
Can you show us some pictures?

Any anon willing to show us pictures of before and after starting fasting?

The only thing i could find was this faggot here, and he's done a great job.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/comments/356gyl/results_with_pics_of_my_accelerated_lean_gains_cut/

>>41028654
Yeah, maybe there's some endocrinologist anon that can help us. I'll look up in my old book tomorow and i'll come back with results if any. Have a good night.

>>41028707
Sounds good, night.

I do know that I am definitely getting stronger as I exercise. And I have been at a caloric deficit for 3+ months. I'm really bad at recording my lifts, I just go out there and pick shit up until I'm sore because my focus right now isn't to gain mass. At the very least I know I haven't lost muscle mass. However anecdotal, this is my experience and leads me to believe what I've read about fasting and muscle mass. I will need to find studies though, I may need to hold off on the generals until I'm more equipped.

>>41028750
If you're new to lifting you're only improving you CNS to engage more and more muscle fibers to do the task. You can get stronger while cutting as a noob. You won't get a lot of mass if any.
Sorry if i understood you wrong.

If you're new, i suggest you keep a log and some pictures, it will really help you in the long run.

does working out prior to beginning my fast help my body get the fasting benefits quicker? or will this mess up my insulin levels and worsen my fast?

>>41028800
Well I'm not a beginner but I'd probably be considered dyel on this board. I have a decent foundation. I used to lift a lot for football way back in the day. But that was 10 years ago. I'll be around 160lbs lean when I'm done losing weight. Which I can't fucking wait for, been a 50lb journey and I have a week maybe 2 to go.

>suggest you keep a log and some pictures, it will really help you in the long run.
I had only considered this for losing weight, I hadn't really thought about using it for gaining mass. I'm definitely going to, though. Thank you.

I'm going to bed though, everyone have a great evening, thanks for the bumps.

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I have a question. Basically, my friend is a personal trainer and a chad. He asked recently what I was doing to lose so much weight (I've lost 70lbs since last September). I told him IF + lifting.

When I said the word fasting his eyes glazed over and he looked like he was about to call an ambulance. I got the normal reaction questions
>you mean you haven't eaten yet today!?
>how do you not eat breakfast?!
>why are you doing cardio?
>are you feeling ok?!?

I explained that I still eat a decent calorie count, etc etc. I even left out the part about EF a few times a month. He was so shocked that i simply told him that i skipp breakfast that he asked if we could meet later this week (expecting some sort of sit-down come to Jesus / intervention).

I am happy with IF, and I'm going to keep doing it, my question is Does anyone have a decent web resource that explains the concept of IF in a page or two? I want to give him some concise reading material, because he's a Chad and won't be bothered to read Dr. Fung's whole blog or watch a 100 minute Fung lecture.

TLDNR; anyone got a website that briefly explains the benefits of fasting at a technical level that a personal trainer would be able to comprehend yet believe it?

>>41027278
Bump

>>41029141
right before your first meal, that's your best chance of landing on an HGH spike

When's the best time to consume your calories? I try to avoid night eating since I generally gain weight if I eat anything late at night.

>>41026104
There's no such thing as compensation, there's no such thing as low or high metabolism.

Unless you're extremely malnourished your metabolism couldn't give two shits about what you eat. It changes, but the amount is absolutely negligible. Like come on man, you sound like someone who read articles and now thinks he knows everything.

Geezus christ man.

>>41028533
I actually had a civil discussion with you a few days ago and it was all fine.

But this whole trying to convert the whole board to your side?

Why are you doing this, what mental reason do you have that this is what takes your mental capacity, is this the epitome of your potential, arguing on a board trying to make random people convert to your way of thinking?

I can appreciate the effort, but man, your enthusiasm could be used much better elsewhere, you really do sound like a jehovas witness.

And always posting the fung picture? Do you want validation so much that you need to create a reputation for yourself as that fung/insulin guy? Why do you care to do it here where the attention span of the average fit faggot is less than a day?

Yeah, I'm done.

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>>41030887
>>41030847
I'm only doing this because I want to help people. That's all I care about.

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>tfw been intermittent fasting for over a year without knowing it
skelly appetite on a dreamer bulk lmao eat like 4000 cals in a matter of 3 hours at night before bed or after workouts then drink coffee and water during the day

>>41026079
breakfast is overrated and should only be done on occasion
>unless you would consider coffee breakfast

>>41025022
Am on day 8. Super easy for the most part. Overall, I feel more alert and energized throughout the day and I can see my abs starting to come in a little. I'm 6'3" currently at about 197 lbs trying to get to like 185 lbs.

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>>41025022

Hi, starting waterfast today and I got a question.

Could gargling with listerine and my aftershave that contains alcohol trigger an insulin response?

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>>41031182
If only you could test yourself to see when your HGH is spiking, you would become a legend.

>>41031240

I am not gargling with my aftershave obviously.

But could it, penetrating the skin and getting into my blood cause something?

>>41031240
I was worried about this when I first started too. If you accidentally ingested some it would have a minimal effect and wouldn't last long.

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>>41027513
let me show you how I do it
>3 eggs
>3 servings of pasta (usually penne or orchiette) with 2 tbsp olive oil
>blended shake with 1 cup cabbage 2 cup frozen blueberries 1 quarter cup sunflower seed 3 cups milk 1 cup oats 2 scoop choc protein powder
>3 cup OJ
>4 scoop (tbsp) peanut butter
>3 bananas
might seem like a lot but it usually only take a couple hours at most to eat and I almost never have an appetite. I eat that same thing everyday and get all the nutrients i need.

>>41031250
Nah you're fine my dude. Its going to be tough the first time you fast, you'll get headaches and be cranky, don't worry if you fail. I failed few times until I committed to a longer EF. Now its easy, the only thing is focusing on the benefits and having discipline to stay away from food.

I can't tell if this is some elaborate troll or you are all retarded

>>41031279
That's intense man. Literally eating big to get big. Can't wait to lose this last bit of weight so I can do exactly what you're doing and finally start getting jacked this summer.

Once I do I'll have way better threads that focus on IF and gaining mass.

>>41031292
What about it are you having trouble with? I'm here to help with questions if you're interested.

>>41031160
You can do all of this without all of the above. That's why you get so much hate. Not because of what you think and so on, but the whole way you do it.

>>41031296
i believe in you brah
its all about progress; im def looking forward to more IF threads

>>41031359
Well your post hit me pretty hard but I appreciate your criticism. You're a smart dude. However, I believe in what I'm doing, that's why I'm doing it so enthusiastically.

You are right, though. My approach needs refining. I'm probably going to take a break with this stuff for a while and focus on these job interviews. I know I helped some people though, so it wasn't all for not.

quality thread bros
gg

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>>41031383
Thanks my dude.

>>41031325
Just seems like some kinda elaborate ruse I guess it helps people control their eating tho so if they are fat that's good

>>41031492
Yeah, its incredibly effective at resetting your digestive hormones so that you can crave the right foods. Its 2 or 3 dayd of hell to reset those balances, a lot like quitting cigarettes cold turkey, but its worth it.

Not to mention autophagy which is a whole 'nother animal.

>>41031283
>>41031251

Thanks.

Wouldt mutlivitamine pills cause an insulin response as well? And reset autophagy?

What I am scared the most of ist passing out during exercise

>>41031393

Why dont you reveal yourself, Jason?

>>41031557
I haven't researched too much, they shouldn't be insulinogenic. I stayed away from them because I had the same exact fear of messing up my autophagy gains.

Just take the multivitamin if it makes you comfortable. Drink lots of water and salt water for the electrolytes. And take it slow and easy your first work out so you know what you're capable of. Your body will give you around ~2000 calories of energy a day.

If it has any effect at all on your digestive hormones it would be minimal and at the very most you'll lose an hour of autophagy.

But yeah just take it slow and don't over do it. I did get light headed once while doing yardwork, I drank some salt water and sat down for a bit and I was ready to get back to work in 15 min.

So can I just eat a meal around 1 pm and another around 5 pm and then not eat until the next day? That's basically what this is, right?

And on a workout day, go to the gym and then eat one of my meals directly after, correct?

>>41031601

Thanks.

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>>41031565
>>41031610
Yeah you nailed it. If you're gaining mass eat above TDEE, if you're losing weight eat below TDEE.

>>41031646

How big is the insulin response of black coffee?

>>41027513
I can eat 1900 cal of any meat(even unseasoned) in about 3 minutes.

>>41031748
None, you can drink as much as you like within reason. It even speeds up autophagy!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24769862

does fasting really go after fat first and not muscle? Is starvation mode really a myth? thinking about starting IF for 24:4 then working my way to an EF but im not exactly sure what fasting does exactly

>>41031802

I will try. My plan is to do this little 6 day EF til next sunday.

Longterm plan is to alternate 1 week IF with 1 week EF till I hit my goal weight.

Is this a viable plan or do you consider it unhealthy?

>Fast 16 hours a day (Skip breakfast, lunch)
>Lose 12 pounds in a month and I actually look ripped now
Couldn't have done it without adderall in the morning. Summer life guarding job is looking good.

>>41031868
No a lot of anons are doing a similar IF/EF routine. You're good to go. Just drink a lot of water and salt water.

>>41031841
See
>>41025704

I'm probably off to bed soon guys.

>>41031927

k, how much salt water should I drink?

What is the mix ratio?

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>>41031926
Very nice! I was a lifeguard for almost 5 years. Best years of my life.

>>41031942
Well I'm really not super sure because there are conflicting stances on salt. I'm a huge fan of salt but a lot of studies show its bad for you. I put a lot in probably about 5-6g a day but if I was a doctor I'd say you want 2-3g a day.

Fasting slows your metabolism down so so much you cant lose weight

fasting is for retards

>>41031974

wtf I hate my own real life experience now because some dolt on a anime board told me otherwise

I need advice.

I fast for 60:12, followed by 2 36-48:10 every week and I have a week full of workouts.

Monday rest
Tuesday 30 min jogging, Parcours 90 min
Wednesday weightlifting, cardio on treadmill
Thursday 30 min jogging and Taichi
Friday weightlifting, cardio on treadmill
Saturday weapon training, jogging 30 min.
Sunday weightlifting.

Should I change my fasting routine or does it fit my current bill?

>>41032041
This is a lot to take in. I'm pretty sleepy.
Are you gaining mass or losing weight?

>>41032100
Losing fat.
But yeah, that's a weight, too :^).

>>41032115
Basically I wouldn't get too finicky with the numbers. You're going to want to eat after your workouts and try to get a 20hr fast in before you workout for the HGH gains, they usually spike around that time. Its really not super important in your case because HGH hacking is more for gaining mass.

I would just eat after your workouts, either once or twice depending on how you feel. Drink lots of water and salt water and some black coffee when you're feeling like you need the kick. You really don't need to do that much exercise on a weight loss fast because the only benefit you are looking for is maintaining muscle mass and bone density. I would take it easy on the exercise as the benefits of fasting are much more important.

Hope this helps but if its not what you wanted to hear I'm sorry!

>>41031942
Ive heard pickle juice is good for hydration . i was drinking it when i first started doing low carb, high fat.

why do all normies say fasting is terrible for you ? im reading this thread and pretty much everything has had success

>>41032187
**everyone

>>41031974
>being wrong
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/81/1/69.short

hmm, no decrease in rmr? oh no, looks like you are completely wrong.

>>41032174
That's interesting. On my 5 day fast I really enjoyed adding lemon concentrate into my salt water. Heck, I drink that even when I'm not fasting. The only problem I have with it, and why I don't recommend it, is that is has Lemon Oil in it which is manufactured in a factory.

>>41032187
A lifetime of the food industry (and they're meme food pyramid) telling them to eat 3 meals and 6 snacks a day or they'll literally starve to death.

Fasting is back.

How good is fasting for targeting leftover stubborn fat?

I have some stubborn fat that won't go no matter how much I cut, and it's just taking fat off areas which are already lean. I'm starting to look auschwitz mode, but fat in my legs which is really fucking ugly and annoying. It's like my body is ignoring that fat.

>>41026079
>>41026106
Lol

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>>41031974
Your body isn't as stupid as you are.

Would I be okay if I skipped every meal except dinner?

>>41033488
Yes but if your fat loss plateaus (and it probably will), you'll need to start skipping a few dinners as well.

>>41027663
Well, I used to fast 20/4. With an occasional 40h fast here and there.

I developed a binge eating disorder after that (but my relationship with food was shite to begin with).

I've lost a decent amount of weight (around 30-ish pounds) with fasting. But, now I eat normally with a 24h fast at the end of the week (mostly Sunday).

I began at 245lbs, now I am 155lbs (6'4"). However, I only learned about IF when I was in the process of losing weight already. With that said, I now have a modeling contract so I think I did something right.

TL;DR = IF can help, but you should stay away from it when you have a bad relationship with food already. Also, it is not a miracle. You can lose just as much with a normal deficit (without fasting) as with IF.

How much weight does /fit/ think I can lose in 50 days?

Currently sporting 100 kg at 190cm tall
Would like to lose 10-15 kg by June

>>41033510
>I developed a binge eating disorder after that (but my relationship with food was shite to begin with).
Same, now I can't be satisfied with eating unless I end up completely stuffed. How did you cure it?

>>41033534
I did not really cure it, however, I do not feel bad anymore because of it and I still manage to achieve my body goals.

The way I did it is by taking the binges into account in my weekly diet plan.

So, I plan one binge a week (approx 10k calories)
My TDEE is ~3000, so I have 21k calories to work with per week

21,000-10,000= 11,000 calories per week
11,000/5 days= 2,200 calories per day to maintain (5 days because 1 day of the week I fast)
Since I want to make sure I do not gain any weight; I just eat a little bit less than 2,200 calories a day.

I also train 3 times a week, with 2 hours cardio every day.
Lost around 3kg in the past four months (it's slow, but it is still working while having a binge once a week).

>>41033501
ok thanks

>>41032891
That sounds unusual. First off, for men the most stubborn area of fat is usually the midriff (hips and stomach) - I've never heard about the legs but it's all individual I guess.

I suggest seeing a doctor. If you're pushing your BMI to unhealthy levels of underweight for the sake of losing fat, you'll have bigger problems than chubby legs.

>>41033534
That's probably very natural. Our bodies are designed to stuff itself when it comes out of a fast. It doesn't know when it'll get to eat again.

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Can I fast with protein, I don't want to risk my gains.

>>41032891
Leg fat isn't unhealthy so I wouldn't worry about it

>>41033522
Assuming you put yourself at around a 1000 calorie deficit per day you can lose around 7 kilos in 50 days without too much trouble.

>>41033657
Looks and feels horrible though

Gone from 86 kg to 79kg since February 20th.

At first I just did ketogenic, but didn´t seem to loose much. Now I´m eating once a day, usually 24 hour fast between first and last meal and the weight has been getting off. Extreme levels of energy too.

At the moment I don´t even count calories. Just one huge bigass meal following keto guidelines (not too much protein, main calories from fat etc.) Easy as hell

whats the point of fasting again? Will it burn more fat in a cut?

>>41025022
>24 hours into fast
how do you even do that?

>>41032159
Thanks for the information.
To clarufy, this is my normal workout routine.
It is also intened to socialize more.

If possible, I would like to avoid caffeine as much as possible, since I am trying to get my brain's homeostasis back (normal amount of adenosine receptors, less anxiety, less feeling like shit without caffeine, etc.).

Today, I got some bloodwork done and will get the results tomorrow at the earliest.
Maybe then I am gonna try to do an extended fast if my body seems to be ready.
Perhaps it will accelerate the withdrawal?

>>41034374
Just don't eat, just drink some water with a sprinkle of salt throughout the day ?

Seriously, it isn't that difficult m8.
Look at ramadan and they don't even drink water (although this is totally retarded in my opinion t. muslim).

>>41034242
Are you sure that's enough calories though (even though you're cutting)? I eat just one meal too and go way past comfort lol, if I didn't track I'd fall short

>>41034374
It's not too difficult. Try doing standard IF, 16/8. It's hard, then it's easy. Then go to 20/4. I feel like 24 hours is even easier. I'm on hour 48 and there's a point when you feel like you're going to give in but that passes in like an hour.

It sounds a lot harder than it is.

HOW ABOUT A CBT FOR THESE FASTING FAGGOTS. I 100% guarantee that none of these fasting cunts have anywhere near a nice body.

>>41036071

>

t. CICOlet

>>41025022
Hi, if I do extended or intermediate fasting but also masturbate where will my body get the proteins from to produce new sperm cells? Will it break down muscle cells?

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>>41036154

>>41036148
post your body pussy boi. I bet you're a fucking punjab with shit body

>>41036176
Fasting is just a type of cutting ya goof

I have some questions about IF, planning on starting next week, 20/4.

Do I need to prep or do I just eat my last meal at the end of my planned window and go from there?

Should supplements be taken during/after meals or in the morning? I drink vitamin c in the mornings which apparently has 7 calories.

Any risk of doing cardio(riding my bike to work,1 hour total) while doing IF?

>>41036154

It will use your brain which means you will probably become impotent

>>41036186
Stop changing the subject. I want to see what type of body these "fasters" have.

>>41036257
pls respond

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>>41036257
>Do I need to prep or do I just eat my last meal at the end of my planned window and go from there?
the ONLY thing that matters is that you consume ALL of your calories WITHIN the eating window. you cannot spike insulin outside of this window or it will make the fast useless. you can eat half your food at the beginning of the eating window, and the rest at the very end if you wanted to - this is what I do (my workout is inbetween both meals). or you can eat all your calories in one sitting - doesn't matter as long as you don't consume any calories outside of the eating window.

>Should supplements be taken during/after meals or in the morning? I drink vitamin c in the mornings which apparently has 7 calories.
you should take your supplements within your eating window. with or without food it doesn't really matter.

>Any risk of doing cardio(riding my bike to work,1 hour total) while doing IF?
if you want to lose weight then this is a good thing. combining fasted cardio + IF is amazing for weight loss. even more effective is doing fasted cardio + yohimbine + caffeine. look at pic related and do some research. it's legal and it actually works.
if you want to gain weight, then this is only a bad thing if the cardio you're doing puts you under your caloric maintenance for the day. I don't know why you'd want to bulk on IF though but w/e.

>>41036257

Drink your vitamin C with your meal.

Also its up to you if you prep our cook in advance.
I think if you eat only once a day you would want some freshly made food buts that depends on you. Just keep the time window and you will be fine.

The only risk of you riding your bike to work is traffic.

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>>41036257
>>41036677

>>41036677

Is yohimbine actually maca?

Seems I cant find yohimbine in Europe

checked

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>>41036690
https://www.strongsupplementshop.co.uk

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Last meal before a 42 hour fast. The eggs contained a lot of butter and cheese so I couldn't even finish the avocado. Put the vegetables in the fridge for Thursday.

>>41036763

Doesnt this supplement contain kalories and therefore would set back autophagy?

>>41036677
>>41036683
Thanks. I'll look into yohimbine too, though I'll have to import it, it's not available locally.

I'm 51 hours into my fast. I'm feeling really good, I had some cravings this morning while I was making my kids breakfast, but otherwise it's been fine.

I'd like to use up the rest of my Animal Pak vitamins. They have 40 calories, do you think that's too much?

>>41037081
40 calories isn't much, you'll have a small insulinogenic effect but as soon as that is metabolized you'll be back into fat storage / autophagy mode. Will barely be a hiccup in your progress.

I would try to stay away from these supplements if you don't need them, but whatever helps you stay on track is fine with me.

BUMP for knowledge in this thread
20:4 checking in, I love it so far. Dont let meme posters discourage you, try it yourself and see how you feel

>>41025857
fukkkkkkkkkin saved.

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REMINDER

A lot has been covered in this thread. Please do a CTRL + F to see if your topic has been covered before you ask. Also read the FAQS in the OP. I'll be monitoring for a while to help make fasting protocols and such. Thanks.

>>41037152
why keep posting jesus pictures
Its just about not eating

>>41037192
It helps me remain virtuous. He's pretty much the best role-model a person could have, religion aside.

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>>41036763
jfc

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>>41037215

>forgetting pic related

uhm no sweetie

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>>41037433
touché

>>41037461
Post your current body you dumb fasting cunt.

I want to see some results in here

>>41037504

What you actually want is using a picture to go ad hominem because you cant accept that fasting is a valid method of losing weight because it contradicts your lifelong conditioning

Are you all extremely fat or does fasting also work well if you are low bodyfat (say 10%) WITHOUT wasting your muscle?

>>41037539
What are you talking about? I'm not a dumb tunnel visioning idiot. I'm just a dyel that researches different dieting methods. I believe fasting works, but the community on 4chan that advocates fasting seem to be all dyel punjabs. Prove me wrong.

Chewing bubblegum during your fasting period yea or nah?

>>41037541
If you're that low you should not extended fast. You're at a higher risk of losing lean mass. Fasting works but we gotta use some common sense here.

You're going to want to do a variation of IF, high in protein IF you're still trying to lose weight....

>>41037549
I'm about 52 hours in and I'm down 7 pounds. Obviously mostly water weight.

I'm tipping the scales at 245 lbs and I bench 375 lbs for reference.

>>41037562
nah

>>41037562
Good question. I'd go for the sugar-free kind, depending on what artificial sweetener it is using. You're going to want a sweetener with alow glycemic index.

But in reality, it won't matter unless you chew a lot of it. It also might make you hungrier.

So I wouldn't recommend chewing gum, but if it helps you get through the fast it won't be a huge problem and compliance to the diet is more important.

>>41037581
did i ask for your stats? I'm asking for pics.

how much longer are you going to beat around the bush?

>>41037652
I've stated numerous times that I'm waiting for these last couple pounds. I don't want a shit photo of me circulating before I'm lean. I've worked too hard to fuck this before and after photo up. One week, tops, and you'll have your precious "proof". Which could be faked anyways since it doesn't prove what I ate or how I dieted so I don't really understand why you're so adamant about it.

I fast every weekend to try and reduce my acne but is that enough? I feel as though maybe my body is just getting to the threshold where those cells are repaired right as the weekend ends and I break the fast.

>>41037717
I don't know much about fasting and acne. Are you saying that autophagy could repair the sores? I've heard of autophagy getting rid of wrinkles and skin tags, so I guess it could work for acne.

If I were you I'd dig deep. The body probably has a higher priority rejuvenating the dead and damaged cells of organs. I'd say you'd need a much longer fast to target something as cosmetic as acne. How long depends on what BMI you are.

>>41037683
Ok then tell me your stats ever since you started fasting.

Starting weight - Current weight
Time lapse
body fat %

and what ethnicity are you?

>>41037803
210lbs last year. I counted calories and exercised down to 180 and rebounded back to 195.

Hung out at 190ish until 3 months ago when I stumbled on some information about refined carbs and processed meats. Changed my diet to sat fats and proteins. Lost 20lbs counting calories and exercising, rebounded to 178.

Finally stumbled on Dr. Fung. Alternated between 1 meal a day and 0 meals a day for the last 6 weeks or so. The fat has been pouring off me like butter. I'm down to 165lbs.

I'm white Caucasian male, 28 y/o. I'm bad at guessing BMI but I have around 5lbs of fat and its all around my stomache / hips.

I'm pretty DYEL, so I'm gaining a lot of strength even being on a deficit for 3 months straight. I Can crank out pushups and pullups for days and I just got my bench set up and am working on the big 3 in my garage.

>>41037887
You're obviously not the first person that I was replying to, but you're at 165 now? Pics

>>41037887
This probably isn't 100% accurate, a lot of it is estimation. All I do know is that I feel much better fasting. I'll tell you what, try a 2 or 3 day fast, your brain will feel on fire.

I don't know if anyone can relate?

But I just felt sharp as a tac, like I could write a book or something. Cleared my brain fog right up. There's some really good info on fasting and bolstering brainpower using all the ketones released from your fat storage.

This speaker has high-functioning autism but its a good watch either way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UkZAwKoCP8

>>41027074

There is a limit but it's a lot higher than people think. People say "30 grams per meal" but really its more like 30 grams an hour, and it takes your body several hours to process a meal.

Another way to think of it, if you're eating so much that your body can't use it, you'd literally see bits of it in your feces.

>>41037887
>165lbs
>5lbs of fat
>equals roughly 3,03% bodyfat
Fasting confirmed for goddamn magic.

>>41037973
I want progress pics. Not some retard talking about retard stuff

>>41037973
>This speaker has high-functioning autism but its a good watch either way
same can be said about most /fit/ threads tbqfh

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>>41037998
Here's about 25 pounds down on Warrior Diet.

>>41037997
topkek

>>41038043
So you're telling me that you had progress pics THIS WHOLE fucking time i've been asking you for. And you finally pull one out of your ass begrudgingly? LMAOOOOOOO bullshit confirmed.

>>41038062
Dude, I'm at work. Give me a break.

>>41038062
not him but those are not progress of actual fasting though which is what you were asking for. warrior diet is just a kind of IF approach.

>>41038091
lmao you're full of shit and it's so obvious bro.

>>41038105
I'm not the guy you were talking to earlier. You're looking for photo results from fasting; I presented them to you.

>>41038043
Nice work my dude. Plan on doing Warrior as soon as I get lean. How long between those pics?

>>41038133
I'm asking the poster for THEIR progress picture. Not other people.

and FYI warrior diet is not fasting. It isn't IF either. It's grazing on small fruits and snacks throughout the day and having one big main meal. So it's not fasting.

>>41036779
That looks tasty m8