So why did everyone become a vegan?

>>40690928
I only say I'm vegan to fuck vegan girls.
After I bang their back out I order a steak and eat it in front of them. They usually get the message and leave, but they come back for another fuck every once in a while. Begrudgingly.

P.S.
I don't like steak.

>>40690928

1) Invest time, money, and energy planting crops.
2) Invest time, money, and energy making animals eat those crops.
3) Invest time, money and energy killing those animals and packaging them so they don't spoil.
>Omnivore logic

>>40690928
To bang vegan girls yeah. Haven't met a fat vegan yet so it's a good question to cut the Bullshit. Pretty popular where I live and super easy. I started because animal feelings but honestly have a felt better and had way better shits since I've been vegan. You couldn't convince me to go back at this point.

>>40690964
This man goes out of his way to send a message.

Noice.

>>40690928
Not vegan, but vegetarian. Eating flesh really does seem disturbing to me.

>>40690993
Except meat is more calorie and nutrients dense then vegtables
>>40691039
Sounds like it was a fibre problem not a meat one.

>>40691088
Except you need a shitton of plant calories and nutrients to raise a calorie of meat.

>>40691102
>vegtables
>cows eat grass and hay
>Chickens eat corn and worms
Yeah so many fucking vegatables

I'm not vegan yet but i'm leaning in that direction. There's, as far as i can tell, no good argument for eating meat, so right now i'm basically a hypocrite cause i'm "ideologically" vegan but i eat meat. For now, at least.

So how does one get enough macro's when eating vegan? I used to almost not eat any meat but since I started Lifting I'm eating animal products daily to reach my proteins... Honestly I want to slowly cut out all animal products from my diet alltogether. Maybe buying whey is a good start?

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>>40690964

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>>40690928
Genesis 1:29

And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

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>>40690928
>>40691214
Daniel 1:11-15

11 Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, 12 “Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. 13 Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see.” 14 So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days.

15 At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. 16 So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead.

Who /fruitarian/ here?

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>>40691088
>Except meat is more calorie and nutrients dense then vegtables

Calorie counting is bullshit. I have a friend who eats cake all thet time and stays thin, while cows only eat grass and vegetables and are more calorie-dense.

>>40691238
>>40691214
>citing a made up story to prove his point.
Hahahahahahaha veganism really is a cult.

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>>40691304
>veganism really is a cult.
>is a cult.
>cult.
YOU BETTER TAKE THAT BACK M,\OTHER FUCKER!!!!

>>40691293
>becouse y does z, x must be false
Really fires up those brain cells.

>>40691452
Denail is not just a river in Eygpt.

>>40690928
>All these animals use up Oxygen and increase CO2
Out of all arguments to become vegan this must be the most stupid

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>>40690928
>>40691214
>>40691238

>>40691786
Kek!!!!

It's pretty cheap, they tell me it's good for the environment, I don't want to give people money to kill animals, and most people agree that a plant-based diet is the healthiest way to eat whether that means 90% plants or 100% full vegan

>>40690928
I did it because I want to lose as much muscle as possible as quickly as possible. I also want to be deficient in essential vitamins and amino acids so that I look and feel sick.

>>40690964
So what, you go on another date with them and order a steak?

>>40691039
>Haven't met a fat vegan yet
I know one. Fries all day every day. Fries and pizza bases

>>40692218
2/10 b8

>>40692276
That's actually accurate.

Veganism reduces testosterone in men and causes multiple nutrient deficiencies.

>>40691039
>>40692262
Same, I know a fat vegan couple at my college. All they do is eat Oreos, potatoe chips, and white bread.

>>40692342
Oreos arent vegan you dumbass.

t. vegan

>>40691155
Whey is a byproduct of making cheese or comes from milk

>>40692358
http://lmgtfy.com/?iie=1&q=Are+Oreos+vegan

>>40690928
Being vegan is retarded for our biology, and plant farming at this point in time is no better for the environment than animal farming, sometimes worse since to buy a lot of that fancy vegan shit you're supporting SLAVE LABOR in third world countries. Hypocritical retard.

I buy and eat meat. I source where it comes from whenever possible, buying local and pasture raised (Meaning the animals live pretty much naturally until it's their time).

I consider it the part of nature. I wouldn't stop my cat from killing and eating a bird or a mouse (Mostly because good fucking luck stopping a cat from doing anything it wants to do) just like I wouldn't stop a bear from eating both meat and fruit.

As long as the animal is not mistreated and is allowed to live a happy life until it's their time, I can eat meat guilt-free. Plus it tastes better when they live without stress which is kinda proof enough to me that it's how we're meant to do it.

It's expensive though so I just flexi-tarian for the most part (i.e. I eat tofu for some meals instead, and aim for vegetable and fruit based breakfasts or lunches more so than ones with meat).

But fact is, we're capable of eating and digesting meat. We have done so for a shmillion years as a species. Veganism is not an easily sustainable diet, many become weak or depressed the longer they stay on the diet (Years for some, months for others), and it's not a great option for me personally because I like steak, chicken, fish, as long as they're not tortured until they die.

I don't eat dairy because of an allergy though.

>>40692262
Yeah I know a fat vegan too, but to be fair he isn't good at being vegan (Seen that kid get the munchies and chow down on animal products just not meat).
He's a good guy though other than that and doesn't push it down people's faces too much.

>>40690928
CO2, methane and nitrous oxide levels are going up thanks to you vegan faggots. What do you think it takes to produce your rabbit food?
Eat fish or die

I think there are 3 primary arguments for veganism that are overwhelmingly convincing -

[The Ethical argument]
P1 (Premise 1): Unnecessary suffering is wrong
P2: Eating animal products is unnecessary
P3: Eating animal products causes suffering
C (Conclusion): Therefore, eating animal products is wrong

[The Environmental argument]
P1: For our long term future and for the future of our planet and all its flora and fauna and so forth, as the only known 'intelligent' species we have a duty to preserve the environment and oppose anything that might threaten it
P2: The production and consumption of animal products threatens the environment when compared to the alternative of production and consumption of plant based alternatives
P3: There is no good reason to produce and consume animal products vs plant based alternatives
C: Therefore, we have a duty to oppose the production and consumption of animal products (i.e. be vegan and promote veganism)

[The Health argument]
P1: We have a moral obligation to treat the source(s) of any worldwide disease(s) that is/are killing many people
P2: Heart disease is, by some margin, the leading killer worldwide (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs310/en/)
P3: Heart disease (amongst many, many other leading killer diseases) is heavily associated with consumption of animal products, which have saturated fat (saturated fat hardly found in any other foods) (http://dresselstyn.com/JFP_06307_Article1.pdf)
C: Therefore, we have a moral obligation to oppose the consumption of animal products, and to advocate for the consumption of plant based alternatives, particularly when it has been documented that these alternatives have the power to reverse the leading killer - heart disease (see previous citation)

(part 1/2)

>>40692522
(Part 2/2)

If anyone is familiar with formal logic, you will know that an argument is divided into premises and a conclusion. An argument is "valid" if and only if it is not possible for the premises to be true and the conclusion to be false. This has no bearing on the truth of the conclusion however, because the possibility of the premises being true does not make them true in practise. An argument is sound if it is both valid and the premises are actually true. If this is the case then the conclusion must also be true. (see: http://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/ for more on this)

I believe the three above arguments satisfy the criteria for both validity and soundness, thus I believe their conclusions and the obligations their conclusions bring to be true by definition. If you have any issue with this, then you must work to show how they are either in-"valid" (the conclusion does not follow from the premises by necessity) or un-"sound" (the premises are untrue). Otherwise, you must also accept their conclusions as true by definition.

If you want something with a bit more depth, I believe this to be best paper ever written on the ethics of animal products: http://faculty.smu.edu/jkazez/animal%20rights/norcross-4.pdf

Thanks for reading.

>>40692522
who the fuck cares i like eating steak

>>40692530
>who the fuck cares i like assaulting children
>who the fuck cares i like killing old people
>who the fuck cares i like molesting teenagers
>>who the fuck cares i like [morally repugnant act that gives me pleasure]

**before any meat-lover sperges at me, I am not equating the consumption of animal products to the above acts, they are merely for the sake of analogy**

You're a cancer to society and I mean that literally, not as an insult.

>>40692522
Factory farming has created a situation where a massive chunk of the gulf of mexico is actually devoid of all fish life.

And the only way for the type of pure veganism that people who push it and don't produce their own veg depends on factory farming.

There is no positive environmental impact and the amount of living creatures that were and are still being genocided and chunks of earth that have been STERILIZED( like the kind of destruction that made people write long nightmare scenario GOD(s)has forsaken us/is angry with us kind of shit) is staggering.

>>40692528
mate vegan is a stupid hippy meme, your teeth are omnivores teeth. you have fucking canines and incisors, fuck me people are so dumb.

ethical argument - it is unethical not to eat meat, because you are dooming billions of cows to unbirth, non-existence, they will never be born, you have commited the most atrocious sin against a living thing, by taking away its opportunity to ever be alive.

environmental argument - humans create problems and then solutions and then more problems. you don't get solutions by banning, stopping or reverting back to a less efficient system. history shows us free societies structured around giving people what they want are the most prosperous and environmentally conservative. the only other historical alternative is mass depopulation. if people did not want to eat meat they wouldn't eat it and the meat industry would collapse. people will always want to eat meat because its part of their biological imperative to consume animal fats and proteins and to develop towards larger brains and bigger bodies.


health argument - this is the most retarded shit i've ever read, the most healthy people are in the developed world and they consume far more meat than some villager in south east asia or a poor african country. the health risks in the western world stem solely from over-indulgence, this is a moral failing with respect to temperance, something closely linked to the decline of (1) religious virtues and (2) the strict standards enforced by a society where strength and prudence is valued over greed and impulsive vanity.


all your premises are wrong, the world is not some abstraction you can reduce to the shit you learned in your philosophy 101 course.

observe the world and the people living in it.
create your hypothesis and try to test it.
draw whatever conclusions you can.

>people must be ruled
>people must be free

this is the tension that builds and collapses every great civilisation. a fleeting balance leaps progress forward

I eat meat, it's about 1/4 of my calories. 1/2 of my calories is vegetables and 1/4 of my calories are starchy vegetables.

1) Animals are killed in the collection of plants
2) You cannot get all the nutrients you need from plants alone, you MUST supplement if you are on a vegan diet.
3) We decend from omnivores.

Vegan does not mean healthy. There are a ton of processed vegan foods that will take you straight to diabetes town.

You wanna be healthy? Eat whole meats (organ meat included), dairy, fruits and vegetables, avoid anything that comes in a wrapper and has more than 1 ingredient.

>>40692246
You don't have an in home chef? Fucking pleb

The problem is humans are hypocrites about everything. The world you were told about when you were a a child is vastly different to the world experienced as an adult.

I've got nothing against eating meat or soley sticking to a vegetarian diet but including some debased ideology with your eating habits is stupidly hypocritical. Either be a full on Jain or shut the fuck up. We all know you're only doing it for the image and how others perceive your "uniqueness".

>>40692720
We dont decend from omnivores, we are omnivores.

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>>40690928
Yes everyone should eat vegan diet and become weak numales. Please do.

I eat a strict !vegan diet. Meat, eggs, and cheese only. No pants. Plants are what my food eat.

Inb4 muh kidneys
Inb4 muh cholesterol

>>40692777
I am descended from my family, I am also my family.

>>40692720

>1) Animals are killed in the collection of plants

I'm surprised this argument has caught on. Animals are killed by combine harvesters when crops are harvested. These crops are grown 10x more than they need to be because we keep livestock that need to be fed. Eating meat means all the livestock animals are being slaughtered in addition to 10x more of the unlucky animals in the crop fields. If you really cared about this, the option would be to not eat meat.

>2) You cannot get all the nutrients you need from plants alone, you MUST supplement if you are on a vegan diet.

Only true of vitamin B12, which is extremely easy and cheap to produce and is already added to many foods and livestock feed. Fortifiying more foods would benefit society even if nobody was vegan, as B12 supplementation is better even for meat eaters than relying on meat for B12.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/news-events/news/research-news/2000/b12-deficiency-may-be-more-widespread-than-thought/

>3) We decend from omnivores.

Not an argument. Our furthest ancestors were herbivores who gradually become opportunist omnivores as they left the equator, as that allowed them to survive in areas where their main diet foods were rare. Omnivorous behavior doesn't mean all foods are equally healthy when eaten or that an omnivore needs to eat every kind of food that exists in order to survive, only that they have more food options. Some options are better than others. You wouldn't argue that we should eat donuts and candy just because we have the ability to digest it. It doesn't make sense to do that for meat either.

>>40693103
>didn't even address that most vegan diets aren't even healthy.

Checkmate vegans, i eat what you eat plus I eat meat, I also don't eat that processed garbage that you idiots can't seem to stop cramming down your gullet.

>>40691786
saved

>>40693134

It was a stupid point. I would agree that a vegan diet doesn't necessarily mean a healthy diet, which would be true of any type of diet. To say "most vegan diets aren't healthy" would require statistics, and diet comparisons usually favor vegan diets.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967195/

>The use of indexing systems, estimating the overall diet quality based on different aspects of healthful dietary models (be it the US Dietary Guidelines for Americans or the compliance to the Mediterranean Diet) indicated consistently the vegan diet as the most healthy one.

I don't think I've seen someone more proud about not eating vegetables.

>>40692668
I'm really struggling to make sense of your arguments here.

>>40692704
Canines are present in some (see: gorillas, monkeys, etc.) - and incisors in most - herbivores, so neither are evidence that we are carnivorous. Sorry. If veganism were a stupid hippy meme you wouldn't be floundering so hard to present counterarguments. Greater and more intelligent men than you have tried and failed at that task I'm afraid.

>"ethical argument - it is unethical .."

You are assuming that animals in animal agriculture are living "good", worthwhile lives. This is obviously not the case. They suffer and they die, living a fraction of their potential age. If we are bringing them here to suffer, why is it a moral obligation to bring them here at all? This argument also obliges us to bring into actuality all the un-actualised animal lives. So it seems by extension that it is an ethical obligation to breed as many animals as is possible. A rather absurd conclusion.

>"environmental argument - humans create .."

The growth of plant based alternatives IS the most efficient system. We grow enough food for many times the world's population, but feed it to animal's instead. The energy is wasted as it is passed down the biomass pyramid and we are left with much less than we started with. The reason humans eat animal products is because the industry dictates that we do, not because of any freedom of choice. These products are subsidised by the government, who also give tax cuts and other luxuries to the meat/dairy/egg industry. You cannot tell me 2/3 of America is fat because they are following their "biological imperative". They are fat because this is profitable for the massive corporations who take advantage of our bad habits. Don't be ridiculous. I've seen better arguments from my 7 year old cousin.

>>40690928
>Also because the thought of eating flesh disturbs me on some primal level.
thought of eating flesh arrouses me on some primal level

god i love ribs, tearing the flesh straight off the bone and sucking on the ends to get marrow. i have them every year on my birthday, i eat a whole rack

the rest of the year i make do with wings, seeing a birds nest of tiny bones knowing every pair is just one animal that i could have gotten the same amount of protein and calories from just a single bird's breasts... its orgasmic

>>40692704
[Cont.]

["health argument - this is the most retarded shit .."]

Humans are, like our ancestral primate cousins (monkeys, apes, etc.), herbivores. There is an absolute mound of evidence in the scientific community in support of this. Here:

1. Ideal LDL cholesterol is only found in herbivorous (read: vegan) human populations -[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109704007168] + [http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0066-782X2007000100006&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en]

2. Carnivores don't suffer heart disease and other related ailments that we do which have to do with consumption of cholesterol and saturated fat (present practically exclusively in animal products) - [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603726/]

3. Humans don't require animal products according to the American Dietetic Association - [http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2009_ADA_position_paper.pdf]

4. Humans don't have fat or protein receptors on their tongues like carnivores do - this is why meat is seasoned both in factory and on our plate so liberally [https://www.meatinstitute.org/index.php?ht=a/GetDocumentAction/i/48321] You would never season a ripe piece of fruit in the same way, indicating we have evolved to eat these types of foods instead.

5. Psychologically, the vast majority of humans don't have the capabilities to kill and eat animals raw. We find this thought intuitively repulsive, indicating we are far from "predators". Ripe fruit, on the other hand, we salivate over, indicating this is our ideal form of food.

6. Ideal BMI in America is only found in vegans. This shows our body is not tailored to eating animal products as being over ideal BMI is not natural - [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/]

7. The MOST healthy, and LONGEST LIVING, populations on Earth - the Okinawans and Adventist vegetarians - ate virtually NO animal products. [http://www.okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr_diet_2007_1114_434s.pdf]

>>40693184
Faggot, I can guarantee you I eat more vegetables than you daily. The difference is I don't eat processed garbage.

You know what's vegan? The steamed broccoli, mashed sweet potatoes, quinua, nuts, salads, wraps, that I eat daily.

I also eat bison, elk, deer, salmon, chicken, trout, some of which I fish or hunt myself.

If your diet REQUIRES that you eat a supplement, it is a bad diet, the end.

I don't give a shit if you are comparing diets to these garbage modern processed diets, I never said vegan wasn't better than them, I just said vegan sucks, just like all the diets you see out there.

>>40693134
So you eat a relatively healthy diet plus a carcinogenic substance, cool.

>>40693326
The majority of omnivorous americans are deficient in 8 nutrients. Most doctors would call it necessary for them to supplement. So would your same argument apply for diets including animal products?

A proper vegan diet would only require supplementation of B12 (and possibly vitamin D but this is only due to world location and equally applies to meat eaters) - in the wild we would get this from dirt on plants and fruits which is obviously washed away before we buy it in supermarkets. The reason it is present in meat is because of bacteria that is not as easily washed away.

The longest living and healthiest populations ate no or virtually no animal products: http://www.okicent.org/docs/anyas_cr_diet_2007_1114_434s.pdf

Also, veganism is a life choice (or rather, moral obligation) rather than a diet. No diet I know of calls for you to no longer purchase leather wallets or other non-food related items.

Spiritual, Health, Ethical and Environmental reasons

There seems to be literally no good reason to eat meat

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>>40690964
>I don't like steak.
Why do you fuck girls if you're gay?

>>40693280
>They suffer and they die, living a fraction of their potential age
Lol. What is this "potential age" nonsense? Creatures of all kinds die short of "potential age" all the fucking time. Hell, left to their own devices, cattle won't make it to even the age we let them in the environment. And not like the cow is capable of differentiating one age from another. Nonsense.

>We grow enough food for many times the world's population, but feed it to animal's instead.
We don't grow enough food to give the world's population a balanced diet. Don't kid yourself. We feed cows mostly corn, grains, and certain greens not only because it's cheap, but because they can metabolize more nutrients from it (such as the full protein profiles of these veggies) than we can. It's what ruminants are born to do. We also cannot readily convert farmland used to produce animal feed to grow the kinds and volumes of plants needed to provide such a balanced diet, nor can we do so with land used to raise cattle. This isn't because of some agricultural oversight, this is because there are limitations to the production capabilities of certain parcels of land which can only be overcome by years of introduction of biomatter to the soils which also impacts local fauna and water systems.

Not the guy you responded to but your arguments are either moralistic to a fault or straight up misinformed here.

>>40693326

>If your diet REQUIRES that you eat a supplement, it is a bad diet, the end.

In many parts of the world, iodine has to be supplied through supplementation, usually through iodized salt. Some land just lacks iodine such that no natural diet will supply it in adequate amounts. It's not all black and white when it comes to nutrients and supplements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt

Meat comes with too many cons to eat just because you think there's something wrong with B12 supplementation.

>>40690928
DOWN WITH THE VEGAN AGENDA!

>>40693311
what the fuck m8

being vegan will literally kill you long-term
(unless you use a CRAP TON of artificial foods/supplements)

from Okinawans diet wiki
>Every part of the pig is eaten, including internal organs.

fuck off m8

>>40692919
>Yes everyone should eat vegan diet and become weak numales

kek, the only powerlifting athlete to represent the USA in the 2016 Olympics was vegan

>>40690928
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2LYe4Gzmc4
Don't mind me, just destroying some bullshit health claims.

>>40693543
Steroids aren't vegan little buddy.

>>40693533

Why'd you leave out the previous sentence from that wiki article?

> Pork is highly valued, yet eaten very rarely

>>40693555

They actually are

>>40693311
Sorry,

the only reason people show good cholesterol/lipids on vegan diets is because they are literally wasting away

on a ultra low nutrient/kcal diet based on meats, you get exactly the same result when you are literally starving yourself (although you at least get some b12 and don't die eventually, as with a vegan diet)

most modern vegans living in cities eventually are FORCED to get medical treatment (which is in the form of eating a balanced diet)

>>40693533
Thanks for addressing each of my points individually and with citations, m8.

Did you even read the article? Right hand column is Okinawans, less than 1% of their calorific intake was from meat you fat fuck.

Also, I'll refer you to my other comment regarding supplementation: >>40693519

>>40693563
because it doesn't matter, a vegan NEVER eats meat

they also eat fish, EVERY DAY

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>>40693590
forgot to attach image

>>40693580
Somebody better tell that to this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX58PyQwrcI

>>40693590
but without that 1%, they would literally die

there was no need to address any of your other points, since they are pure bull shit

>>40693595

>The traditional diet also includes a tiny amount of fish (less than half a serving per day)

You're missing his point though

>>40693595
I didn't say Okinawans were vegan, just that they ate virtually no animal products and are the healthiest documented population. I'm sure if they'd actually reduced their meat consumption to 0 then they'd have been even healthier.

>>40693590

>Also, I'll refer you to my other comment regarding supplementation: >>40693519 (You)

That's my comment

>>40693605
he takes b12 INJECTIONS

and a hal-page list of other medications and supplements

with a balanced, lets say mediterranean diet he would still be squatting 3pl+ and living to 120

>>40693608

>but without that 1%, they would literally die

The only population that live longer than them are the Adventist vegetarians who eat 0 meat

>>40693621
no, that small percentage is what makes the entire difference between healthy and not healthy. they are absolutely not fucking vegan when they eat fish every single day

vegan is an idiotic meme

>>40693608
>but without that 1%, they would literally die
My god you're grasping at straws. And ffs did you really ignore >>40693519 AGAIN

>there was no need to address any of your other points, since they are pure bull shit
hahahaha fuck me, truly pathetic, imagine if a vegan resorted to this

>>40693631
>he takes b12 INJECTIONS
Non Vegans are deficient in b12, and livestock in western countries are artificial injected with it.

>and a hal-page list of other medications and supplements

He's 98

>>40693580
Yes.
That's literally why vegan diets work.
It's basically themed fasting with a shit ton of roughage nutrients and macros. Much of which, your body simply can not fully absorb from the plant material.

Vegans are merely reaping the benefits from strict fasting while having a full tummy.

Ever wonder why most starvation diets are all "EAT AS MANY VEGGIES AS YOU WANT BUT CUT BACK ON MEAT AND FRUIT!!" and why those diets are so successful?

>>40693640

i'm picturing you crying

are you crying?

>>40693642
just go to pubmed and do a search for vegan

every single fucking article is about how doctors try to keep them healthy/alive DESPITE their fucking idiotic diet

>>40693627
>>40693642
>>40693590

fuck, I meant >>40693453

>>40693280
do you really want me to demolish all your fallacies?

>Greater and more intelligent men than you have tried and failed

If you're going to get baited by my rhetoric so quickly that you drag yourself down to high school debate level syllogisms 1. you're going to look like a brainlet to anyone bothering to read carefully 2. you will draw the ire of any rational person who sees you hiding behind empty language.

>see: gorillas, monkeys

both omnivores if presented with the opportunity.

What would be sufficient evidence to you that human beings are omnivorous? This is how you structure a simple rebutal, if there is no answer you can come up with, then your obsession with veganism is unfounded - since no refutation exists for it, it cannot be falsified, and is analogous a religious belief, one founded on faulty science and an unearned moral high-ground, these are characteristic traits of people who lean left politically and since we are experiencing a rather turbulent battle between the dogmas across the spectrum it puts you firmly in the camp of NOTTHEMAJORITYHERE.

>You are assuming that animals

Define good, worthwhile life. It seems implicitly you have defined it as duration and some nebulous utilitarian formula you glossed over. Utilitarianism is one of the many failed Philsophical offshots of the 19th century. I can go into a serious deconstruction of why it's flawed, or you can educate yourself in your own time, it leads to the prisoner's dilema and P = NP, and was quite useful in developing the Theory of Computation and early models for solving deadlock problems, LIFO, FIFO, stacks, heaps, memory. It's only relevancy to philosophy today is of historical interest, mostly the dangers of eugenicsas religion bleeding into science and state policy. Hence why the separation of church and state is stressed and reinforced in the US constitution, and Europe as a feudal theocracy was a warring continent for over 1000 years.

>>40693657
post any study, and I will refute it with fact

we already explained to you that the lipid / cardio benefits are completely unrelated to the vegan diet and can be reproduced with low kcal diets (tons of articles on this).
what is then the point of your "vegan" diet?

certainly not health.

morality? who cares about that?

>>40693605
My grandfather lived to 101 years old and only died because of an accident with a cow on his farm.
He was active, cognizant, healthy, and content.
He was an omnivore. He ate only what he grew and hunted/slaughtered. Rarely eating junk foods and the like.

I want to live almost as long as him and almost as well.

>>40690993
Yeah its called a market, commie

>>40693577
They need animals to make steroids.
Unless you mean that one company that PLANS on creating yam based steroids.

I'm just not ready to dedicate enough time and effort to eat 3000+ calories worth of plant based food. Not to mention constantly tracking micronutrients to avoid deficiencies.

I'd give it a go if I had a lot more spare time to fuck around with my diet.

>>40693720
>>40690993
growing/eating pigs are much more economical than almost any other option including beans, etc

in fact, some beans is the only thing that even comes close to competing with pigs

but we cannot survive on only beans

we can survive on only pig + milk

pigs are incredibly nutrient dense, unlike anything else that you can eat

in reality, contrary to what meme pseudoscience spouts, it is absolutely not feasible to feed the population of earth with only plants

it is perfectly feasible to feed everybody with pigs + some plants, even if the population doubled or tripled it would still work

basically, pigs are amazing

>>40693704

>we already explained

With no references

>to you that the lipid / cardio benefits are completely unrelated to the vegan diet and can be reproduced with low kcal diets (tons of articles on this).

Go ahead and do so, and not just articles about losing weight lowering lipids. The benefits of eating vegan go beyond calories and weight. Animal-sourced foods directly increase cholesterol levels, explaining why people who remove these from their diets have lower cholesterol/better heart health.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9006469

>>40693742

>I'm just not ready to dedicate enough time and effort to eat 3000+ calories worth of [food]. Not to mention constantly tracking micronutrients to avoid deficiencies.

What do you do now? Eat whatever is around and trust that you're getting all your micros without checking?

>>40693689
(contd)

I make the case that life itself is axiomatic, it's existence is a priori to it's persistence and must exist in that hierarchy. I hold the ultimate pacifist position that no living creature may harm another, though I do not impose this on others. I then conclude if I stop eating meat I am responsible for the infinite suffering of non-existence my choice would create for some delicious animal, so I choose to eat it, ensuring it dies, ensuring it existed. Terminating it's persistence to ensure it's existence.


>enviromental, growth of plant etc

the invention of fertilizer saw the greatest increase in agricultural productivity in 15,000+ thousand years. It's knock-on effects were to destroy the soil for future seed generations, and create the race condition we have now between super-disease strains resistant to pesticides and genetically enhanced crops resistant to the dieases. This has led to a massive reduction in biodiversity in the crops in question (Soy, Corn, Rice, Beans). The reason humans eat animal products is because of their nutrition and caloric density, making them far superior by weight to any other food on the planet. Example: Milk, Honey, Meat.

Corporations don't make people fat, people enter into voluntary agreements to purchase goods. Your problem is a general misunderstanding of economics, supply and demand, and what I mentioned previously- decline in social contracts for decency.

>floundering so hard to present counterarguments

burden of proof is on you to show it's a superior alternative. I cannot prove a negative, ie. Veganism is not good. I can only show why your arguments in favour for it easily fall apart. Which I have done, and you have refused to read closely enough.

>>40693784
see
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2LYe4Gzmc4

>>40693784
there is no need when there are hundreds after a simple search on pubmed

what the fuck did you even post this other "study"? It's shit, and they should feel bad for writing that. Of course fat brits will get better lipids if they eat less (like removing some of the meat from their diet).

It can be addressed with the exact same argument as previously, just go on a diet and your lipids will be fine, on ANY diet.

There are no other known "health benefits" from vegan diets, in any acclaimed study.

It is very clear that you are not familiar with the medical field as a whole. So my actual advice to you, is to stop trying to give bad advice to other people.

There are much better diets with MUCH stronger links to longevity than vegan meme diets.

>>40693803
Pretty much.

Every time I've bothered to count a regular day it comes up okay as far as micros go. It's not hard if you eat a good varied diet every day. Unfortunately it's not that easy for vegans. It's also a lot more difficult to consume the same amount of calories.

>>40693103
There are energy efficient ways of producing meat. The whole concept of meat production being bad for the environment is less a product of meat in itself being bad for the environment, but instead the method of production. Our modern farmjng methods are extremely archaic and have evolved little. More sophisticated techniqes such as vertical farming, and self contained farms would eliminate many environmental effects. Retarded argument.

Addressing the idea that meat is bad for you health wise is also retarded. The biggest cause of health related illness in the world is related to foods that have a high glycemic index. Many vegan foods have high glycemic indexes. When it comes to 'meat' specifically being worse for you more often than other foods, there are a few reasons.

1. In the US corn is subsidized and therefore a dominant food source for almost all livestock. Corn has a relatively shitty glycemic index which is bad for us, and a high omega6 content. This all leads to inflammation which is associated with cancer, diabetes and heart disease.

2. Nitrates and other preservatives used in meats. These are all shit for you. Again, this isn't the meat being unhealthy.

3. Sodium. High sodium intake is also linked inflammation which is linked to all major modern health issues.

tl;dr the only valid (yet unsound) argument against meat eating is a moral one about animal suffering.

>>40693311
1. vegan populations, which country would that be? oh, a self-select group that is also fitness conscious has better health in one metric due to their lower fat consumption, okay, im shocked.

2. because wild game is lean, humans eat fatty meat, specifically grown to be fat, because it's tastier. dogs and cats suffer heart disease.

3. I'm sorry I thought corporations were bad, should I listen to this one because it agrees with you?
>The Academy has faced controversy regarding corporate influence related to its relationship with the food industry and funding from corporate groups such as McDonald’s, Coca-Cola,[5] Mars, and others.[6][7] ...
oh it's like the first thing on wikipedia.. okay, so?

4. https://source.wustl.edu/2012/01/receptor-for-tasting-fat-identified-in-humans/
It's like the 3rd link on google.. do I need to search more?

5. Humans have hunted many animals to extinction for thousands of years, how did this happen if it's such a psychological incapability?

6. see what I wrote in 1.

7. Genetics. And they don't eat any fish huh? Japanese people, living in Japan, they don't eat fish? That's what you're telling me.


clearly, you're an idiot who hasn't fact checked his own sources. nice cut and paste from whatever retarded propaganda blog you're reading. It's like talking to a fundamentalist christian about bible passages.

>>40693851

So when you said you're refute anything with fact, you meant you'd ignore whatever I posted and link some chubby indian guy, and pretend it addressed whatever I had to say. Where's the part where he refutes that meta-analysis of 400 controlled feeding experiments?

>>40693853
he can't stop giving bad advice because he checked his brain out when he joined a cult, and all he can do now is spread it like the aids that it is. you'll notice the same thing with a lot of faggots also, it's not enough that they are queer, now the whole world has to become gay to cater to them.

>>40693868
I should add that the Okinawa diet also has nothing to do with veganism. It has to do with their high consumption of the Okinawan potato and the way they prepare it, which has an extremely low glycemic index. To state their longevity is due to veganism is completely fallacious.

There are also the ways that foods are prepared across culture. Different cooking (from boiling to baking to fried) change the gelatin of the starch altering it's glycemic index. Again, nothing to do with veganism. Veganism is a god damn cult

>>40693987

>To state their longevity is due to veganism is completely fallacious.

Where did he do that? He was making the point that cultures eating diets very low in animal products are healthier

Is there any reason why having a lacto-pescetarian diet is bad? By most accounts, a diet rich in fish and some limited amount of yogurts reduces all-cause mortality.

mom i made the thread again.

can we just add an instant ban to any OP with vegan in it

>>40694007

> By most accounts, a diet rich in fish and some limited amount of yogurts reduces all-cause mortality.

Relative to what? A diet rich in red meat and cheese?

>>40691150

I'm a meat eater but I've since long accepted it's purely out of emotional reasons because I've yet to find a single good, rational argument for it. The best version of me would never do it, but oh well. Change is hard and I have bigger personality flaws to focus on.

>>40692449

>Being vegan is retarded for our biology

Why? A plant-based diet is healthier overall and there's a million studies proving this.

>plant farming at this point in time is no better for the environment than animal farming

Simply not true. Look it up.

>I consider it the part of nature

Appealing to nature is not a good argument. We do plenty of things that are unnatural because we're above our primitive selves. If you want natural, go live in the woods.

>It's expensive though

True. It's a priviledge to be vegan.

>we're capable of eating and digesting meat

Capability and morals are not connected.

>Veganism is not an easily sustainable diet, many become weak or depressed

Mainly because they're misinformed and doesn't eat correctly, but this is true for meat eaters as well.

>>40694006
My fault, you're right that he didn't explicitly state veganism, but even the claim that lower meat consumption is healthier is false and I addressed why.

Example, all cancer is dependent on unfettered growth and gylcogen pathways. Glyocgen is found in vegan food.

>>40693862

>it's not that easy for vegans.

You've eaten vegan before and calculated your micros?

>>40694021
veganism is like self-selection for retards to drop out of the gene pool.

>It's perfectly natural bro
>Excuse me while I take these 10 supplements because the food I'm eating is lacking in essential things my body needs

I wonder who is pushing the vegan meme.. could? no..could it be the companies profiting from selling these idiots the vitamins they don't receive from their diet? Dun dun dun...

but, but they're the good guys. fighting against corporate america and evil capitalism. what's going on here, wa wa wa waaaa.

>>40694068
>wa wa wa waaaa
Fucking cape fear

>>40694068
And the overpriced dinosaur kale and quinoa

>>40691069
Because that's definitely what he does in real life, right?

>>40694068

i don't care i'm just tired of these shit meme threads

we blocked virginvegan we should just block all OPs with vegan in it completely.

>>40692704

I'm a meat eater but you're fucking retarded.

>because you are dooming billions of cows to unbirth

This is like saying masturbation is unethical because you're killing potential children. Fuck off.

>>40694059

>even the claim that lower meat consumption is healthier is false and I addressed why.

You gave your opinion but it wasn't a very scientific response. Your point seemed to be "it's retarded to say meat is unhealthy because..... high-glycemic carbs are unhealthy," which is pretty damn fallacious.

>>40694106
If you're not eating any meat then you have to replace it with something.

High glycemic carbs have been shown to be the worst thing in the world for you.

>>40694105
no, because sperm needs to fertilise an egg. when i masturbate i don't do it into a womans vagina, then i force her to scrape the cum out of there.

it's shocking how you don't stop to think before you write. what i just wrote should be jarring to you because you misunderstood a very simple thing- he said that by not eating animals it's a higher moral choice. This was his argument.

It's actually the lowest moral choice, because by consuming less animals, less will be born, less will exist, and morally you have killed future generations, by not allowing them to be born.

The only way you can make it lower is by inseminating animals around the clock and then aborting their unborn fetuses. Now you are maximising the cows that will not be born, by making as many as pregnancies as you can and killing them before birth.

>>40694092

You think somebody would go on the internet and lie, anon?

>>40694162

Are the only options you have either meat or refined grains/sugar?

>>40694106
It's not fallacious at all. Modern health related illness is predominately a product of high glycemix carbs. The claim by the vega8b shir poster is that veganism is healthier and better for the environment because of the elimination of meat from diet. I showed why this isn't true.

What aren't you understanding?

>>40694106
Did you even read his first post faggot? It says sodium and carbs are the bad part and the carbs we feed the animal. Holy fuck

>Vegan food not being bad for the environment
BWAHAHAHA Do you know how much fucking fresh water it takes to keep you fucks fed?

>>40690928
>inefficient

>I got all this land but it has too many rocks/soil is too shit/not enough rain/too many hills/too many trees to grow shit but some grass.
>plant soybeans there, it's more efficient

Bitch do you think farmers can make a living being inefficient?

>use up Oxygen and increase CO2 and Methane levels in the atmosphere

So does your worthless ass and a million other brain dead cunts like you. You want to save the world, remove yourself from it.

>>40694259

>It's not fallacious at all. Modern health related illness is predominately a product of high glycemix carbs.

Without even asking you to properly go into the relative health effects of high GI carbs and their role in chronic diseases, how do you not see the fallacy in that? "This isn't bad because something else is bad." That's not how you argue something's innocence. "Cocaine isn't bad for you because heroine is bad for you." "Getting stabbed isn't bad for you because getting shot is bad for you." You present processed foods as the only alternative to meat, and since those are bad, meat by default isn't bad.

>>40694291

He gave 3 reasons why meat can be unhealthy, the first of which requires some evidence. Meat is unhealthy because cows eat corn (which doesn't have a high GI by the way), and if they ate grass then all the issues would be resolved? That's not something to casually state, and doesn't even address the main concerns about meat, namely the saturated fat and cholesterol content in regards to heart disease, and heme in regards to cancer and diabetes.

>>40691130
>I can digest cellulose
>worms are vegan

Is that what he meant by this?

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>>40690928
Having perfect blood results is pretty fucking motivating after changing to a vegan diet for 2 months. Never going back to eating estrogenic animal meat & fat desu.

>>40690928
Because they can, they have the money and it's easy, clean and closer to a modern city lifestyle.

When I was little living in the countryside, I still remember killing a chicken to be a lot more easy and fun than collecting corn.

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>>40691155
70/20/10 c/p/f, motherfucker. any more than 60g protein a day isn't scientifically proven to have any benefit.

>>40692342
Bullshit. Vegans have the highest testosterone of all groups, partly because they don't consume estrogen filled dairy and meat products.

>>40694420
>>40694420
Corn is bad because of the omega 6s not a high gi. See any study on inflammation and the high consumption of omega 6 rich foods in America. See also how inflammation is related to every major modern illness. I'm not doing your homework for you.

>>40694587
That's nice, but they can't actually USE any of that test.

>>40691155
>>40694552
This, 'filling your macros' is a meme made up by the fitness industry to sell you supplements, you don't need anywhere near as much protein as you think you do.

>>40693375
I eat no carcinogens.

>>40693453
There is nothing immoral about eating living things, literally everything you have eaten has been alive at one point.

>>40694587
Cholesterol is the direct biochemical precussor to testosterone. Guess what foods have higher dietary cholesterol?

Plant protein is worse for test than meat.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/div-classtitleeffects-of-replacing-meat-with-soyabean-in-the-diet-on-sex-hormone-concentrations-in-healthy-adult-malesdiv/50C464775151BA6ECBF767221F763AFF

Inflammation = bad and it's all carbs
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821887/

>>40694740

The omega-6 inflammation hypothesis is mostly woo

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/119/6/902

But even if it wasn't, it has little to do with what we're discussing. It's not the main reason why meat is considered unhealthy.

>>40693605
My great grandma lived to 100 and smoked and ate nothing but lard. Anecdotes mean nothing.

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>>40690928
A liberal needs to be a progressive cunt about at least 3 things at once in order to be content.

Every country/state that legalized gay marriage forced more people into veganism to make up for it.

>>40693621
>eat virtually no animal products
They eat pork and eat fish every day. Seriously, are you fucking retarded?

>>40693621
But anon, there are entirely vegetarian civilizations that are less healthy than okinawa, so your argument doesn't have any support.

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>>40694830

>Cholesterol is the direct biochemical precussor to testosterone.

and estrogen

what will your broscience do now?

>eat cholesterol
>become trap

>>40694060
Yes. It sucked.

There are numerous studies proving that the average vegan is nutritionally deprived of multiple micronutrients.

>>40694587
Vegans have lower testosterone than non vegans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181
http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/1/127.abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772
http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49

>>40694884

>There are numerous studies proving that the average vegan is nutritionally deprived of multiple micronutrients.

Likewise for omnis. I'd bet that nearly every single study finds inadequate intakes of atleast a handful of nutrients in meat eaters, especially potassium, vitamin E, fiber, and magnesium.

>>40694866
"no"

>>40694866
As a male your body regulates the ratio of estrogen to testosterone, but less cholesterol your overall levels will be lower. The ratio would remain unchanged.

>frog poster

>>40694926
The standard American diet is crap. We know this, nobody is debating that. The vegan diet is worse than almost any other fad diet out there currently.

I've yet to see a real study comparing a vegan group and a non vegan group that care about their health and eat lean cuts of meat and drink milk, with the vegan group being healthier.

>>40694856
Source?

>>40694884
There are numerous studies proving that you are a faggot

>>40694909
That's lacto ovo vegetarian, not vegan you fucking moron, of course drinking milk lowers your testosterone

>>40690928
Veganism is retarded. Bessy the cow is a freak due to our breeding program, cannot survive except as milker. We've created them, we're obligated to maintain their niche in the world.

>>40694909

>0 out of 4 are about vegans
>2 of the 3 studies about vegetarians don't distinguish between free and total test
>the one that does states "Serum free testosterone, however, did not differ significantly during the 6 wk dietary intervention periods"
>fourth paper is an epidemiological study done on 12 men, and found that protein associated with lower testosterone

Science isn't for you

>>40694963
>the vegan diet is worse than almost any other fad diet put there currently
Based on what? Opinions you pulled out of your ass? Very convincing. Though I agree I'd like to see some studies done comparing "healthy" diets

>>40694866
>Cholesterol is the direct biochemical precursor to testosterone.
>and estrogen
Yes, cholesterol is involved in the production of hormones in the human body. Vegans are actively denying an essential element that is used for the production of essential hormones in the human body, that should tell you enough about how stupid the vegan diet is and how deluded vegans are.

>>40694967
>Source?
I was responding to the source you posted yourself, it seems that lack of b12 is fucking with your thinking haha

>That's lacto ovo vegetarian, not vegan
Exactly, think how much worse off vegans are haha

>drinking milk lowers your testosterone
Now it's your turn to post a source

>>40694963

>"vegans are unhealthy"
>studies show they're significantly healthier than non-vegans
>"well what I meant was they're actually really unfairly healthy and so the studies are biased!"

You people are worse than fat apologists.

Here's a comparison of health-conscious vegans and vegetarians with semi-vegetarians, pescetarians, and omnivores

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/

>In summary, vegetarians have consistently shown to have lower risks for cardiometabolic outcomes and some cancers across all three prospective cohorts of Adventists. Beyond meatless diets, further avoidance of eggs and dairy products may offer a mild additional benefit. Compared to lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets, vegan diets seem to provide some added protection against obesity, hypertension, type-2 diabetes; and cardiovascular mortality. In general, the protective effects of vegetarian diets are stronger in men than in women

>>40695006

Lucky for me, being part of the animal kingdom, my body produces cholesterol all on its own. A smart guy like you would've known that already though.

If you eat enough legumes to get ur daily proteins, and just don't eat tons estrogenic soy, you will get wicked farts. Healthy vegans shit and stink more than horses. Cf: Indians.

>>40694997
Right, the vegetarians had lower test. Think about how much lower testosterone would be for vegans.

Reading comprehension isn't for you

>>40695003
Nope, dozens of studies proving that vegans are nutritionally deprived, with unhealthy effects on the body due to the vegan diet, and the terrible effects of the vegan diet on children.

>>40695068

>Right, the vegetarians had lower test.

Again, the one study actually differentiated between total and FREE test, free test being usable test, found no difference. The other ones looking at total test mentioned that it had implications for treating/preventing prostate cancer.

>Think about how much lower testosterone would be for vegans.

Without dairy's testosterone-lowering effect, probably higher

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976

>>40695068
>Nope, dozens of studies proving that vegans are nutritionally deprived, with unhealthy effects on the body due to the vegan diet, and the terrible effects of the vegan diet on children.
No there aren't

Pescatarian (along with game meat) master race reporting in.

>>40695038
No shit, health conscious people are generally healthier than non health conscious people.

The "study" you posted wasn't even a study at all, it was just an abstract. You've yet to post a real study being done on real subjects.

>>40695109

>inb4 that 3-post wall of misquoted out of context studies

>>40695109
In fact, many government health bodies have declared a vegan diet suitable for all stages of life

>>40694997
Yeah that guy is a faggot but nice job disregarding my sources

France literally banned veganism. It's a crime to put your child on a vegan diet lol

>>40695101
OK so estrogen was absorbed by the test subjects. Did this have a noticeable effect on the test subjects? Seems kind of suspicious that was not added into the results.

>>40695038
I'm sorry, but I have to comment on this.

If you do not understand why that article carries absolutely no weight. I would suggest you stop posting about this subject, until you acquire some type of education within the field.

I can outline the main issue with it here (but there are many more):

To compare vegetarians to other diets as they hope to do, they would AT THE VERY LEAST have to control for:

- only people of the same body fat %
- only people of the same activity level
- only people of the same genetic background
- only people of the same habits in general (smoking, etc)
- many many more things

of course, controlling for this many factors, is impossible, but, typically, at the very least, even reallyt shit studies at least exclude smokers

in the study(which refer to other studies) you linked, they have not even done that much. They do not even exclude obese people.

it's in fact even worse, the only people they include are for some reason adventists.. what the fuck

anything they say carries absolutely zero, scientific weight

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>>40695117

>No shit, health conscious people are generally healthier than non health conscious people.

That describes all diet groups in the study. It's summarizing studies done on people in the blue zone of Loma Linda, California.

>The "study" you posted wasn't even a study at all, it was just an abstract.

That is a full text of the study.

>>40691786
lmaoooooooooo

>>40695109
>>40695125
So wrong. It is a good thing that veganism gives you erectile dysfunction(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476), so that you faggots will never breed and hurt children.

Children who are raised on strict vegan diets do not grow normally:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4067152
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005079

Children develop rickets after prolonged periods of strict vegetarian diets:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874810/pdf/canmedaj01383-0052.pdf

"There are some links between vegetarians and lower birthweight and earlier labour"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7788369

Effects of vitamin B12 and folate deficiency on brain development in children:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137939/

"Particular attention should be paid to adequate protein intake and sources of essential fatty acids, iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamins B12 and D. Supplementation may be required in cases of strict vegetarian diets with no intake of any animal products."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912628/

These next five are case studies:

Cerebral atrophy in a vitamin B12-deficient infant of a vegetarian mother:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673

Severe megaloblastic anemia in child breast fed by a vegetarian mother:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8442642

Consequences of exclusive breast-feeding in vegan mother newborn - case report:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244

Nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in a breast-fed infant of a vegan-diet mother:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463

"We report the case of a 7 month-old girl that presented with acute anemia, generalized muscular hypotonia and failure to thrive. Laboratory evaluation revealed cobalamin deficiency, due to a vegan diet of the mother."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883

>>40695166
>Longevity zones
You don't think genetics could have a factor in longevity?

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>>40695171
anon bringing the pain via facts

>>40695156

All of those except for exact bodyfat % (BMI is almost always used in studies) are accounted for. This is typical of nutrition studies.

>of course, controlling for this many factors, is impossible, but, typically, at the very least, even reallyt shit studies at least exclude smokers
>in the study(which refer to other studies) you linked, they have not even done that much. They do not even exclude obese people.

Exclude, no, but compare like to like, yes. Excluding whole subgroups would make no sense, it just gives you less data. This isn't a reasonable complaint to have about a study.

>it's in fact even worse, the only people they include are for some reason adventists.. what the fuck

... Because it's a study on the health of the Adventist population, who are known for their longevity and healthy lifestyles.

You really needed to weigh in on this?

>>40695254
I just read through the entire study you linked, NONE of those were controlled for.

>>40695191

Do peoples' genes change when they eat different diets?

>>40695262

Read the data portion.

>Non-vegetarian is used as the referent group for comparison. OR = odd ratio; [a] Adjusted for age and diet status, * p = 0.0001; [b] Adjusted for age. Significantly different from non-vegetarians. ‡ p = 0.0001; [c] Multivariate logistic regression model adjusted for age, sex, and BMI; p < 0.005; [d]
>Logistic regression analysis adjusted for sex, ethnicity, smoking, alcohol intake, physical activity, and dietary energy intake; † p < 0.001.

>>40695265
Kind of. Your genes are always being expressed differently as a result of the environment (not just diet). See epigenetics

>>40695282
wtf are tose pics supposed to mean?

>>40690928
>I did because it's extremely inefficient for the environment and for the world. All these animals use up Oxygen and increase CO2 and Methane levels in the atmosphere.
comedy gold

http://motls.blogspot.com/2010/03/john-cook-skeptical-science.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2015/04/freeman-dyson-on-gas-that-we-call-life.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/why-we-should-work-hard-to-raise-co2.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2012/05/will-happer-co2-friend-or-foe.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2010/03/methane-and-warming.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2011/01/weather-in-year-3000-once-again.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2006/07/carbon-dioxide-and-temperatures-ice.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2017/02/what-bill-nye-could-have-answered-if-he.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2008/12/roots-of-environmentalism.html?m=1
http://motls.blogspot.com/2011/10/climate-alarmists-as-numerologists.html?m=1

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>>40695157
>>40695203
>>40695242
>>40695282
>>40695300

Pls gib sauce on girl

>veganism gives you erectile dysfunction
This study was on soy product consumption, it's irreleveant

>Children who are raised on strict vegan diets do not grow normally:
These studies aren't on vegan diets, not relevant, but for sake of argument, it says right in the first study:
>The children fed vegetarian and anthroposophic diets were somewhat lighter and shorter than the children on omnivorous diets but were within normal limits

>Children develop rickets after prolonged periods of strict vegetarian diets:
This one just said they are more likely to need vitamin D

>"There are some links between vegetarians and lower birthweight and earlier labour"
Right in the abstract:
>Vegetarian mothers do not show a higher incidence of complications of pregnancy,

>Effects of vitamin B12 and folate deficiency on brain development in children:
B12 deficiency is not exclusive to veganism

>"Particular attention should be paid to adequate protein intake etc...
Yes, as it should for any diet, what does this prove?

As for the case studies:
again, B12 deficieny is not exlusive to vegans, this proves nothing

Read your articles before you post them next time

>>40695312

>climate change denial blogs

you're making your side look great

>>40695271
Fair enough, although you can see that when they try to account for BMI, the result is less significant.

would be interesting to see a control for actual body fat %. My guess is the results go completely away.

>>40695334
>>40695171
meant to reply to this

>>40695344

>would be interesting to see a control for actual body fat %. My guess is the results go completely away.

Although if they account for BMI, physical activity, and energy intake, and the omnis still have higher bodyfat % to the point where it significantly affects health outcomes, that's another knock against the diet innit?

>>40695344
and even less significant the more controls they add, which is a very much alarming result, it indicates that what is driving the results they present is actually something they are not quite aware of. If the veganism was the main driving force in what is making the people more healthy the more factors you control for should give an even more statistically significant result

>>40695300
>>40695342
>>40695366
What are you doing? I don't get it. Is this true autism?

>>40695373
yes, but it is also a knock against veganism having the effects they claim in the study, a decent hypothesis could be that an omnivorous diet with just a little bit less kcal could give similar effects. And most people really do want to eat their meats.

>>40693936
2. (pet) dogs are one of relatively few true omnivorous animals. Cats and dogs may develop heart disease but they DO NOT develop atherosclerosis, the buildup of fat in arteries. Humans are the only 'omnivores' that do, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/

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>>40691786
>Authentic looking and sounding
>and sounding
>BRAP

>>40690964
>fter I bang their back out I order a steak and eat it in front of them.

Huh? Do you fuck them while in the restaurant?

I'm beginning to think you might be... full of shit.

>>40693543
>powerlifting
>olympics

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>40690928
BBBBBRRRRRRRRAAAAPPPTTTTTTTTTTTTTt

>>40693936
dumb fuck

>>40695341
>AGWtard tears
pope and your fellow nut jobs want you back
>>>/x/

>>40690928
Everyone itt saying they do it to bang vegan chicks is retarded. I'm fucking this vegan chick rn and I openly eat meat in front of her. Stop being beta >>40690964
>>40691039
I'm sure there's others

>>40695334
>This study was on soy product consumption, it's irrelevant
In the context of a vegan diet, the subject himself was vegan

>These studies aren't on vegan diets
You're right, they are not. Think about how much worse the children would be on the vegan diet though, if these effects are happening while vegetarians.

>This one just said they are more likely to need vitamin D
Yes, they need more vitamin D because of the vegan diet.

>B12 deficiency is not exclusive to veganism
No it's not, but b12 deficiency is prevalent in vegans and as shown in this study b12 deficiency is harmful to children.

>Yes, as it should for any diet, what does this prove?
Nutritional deficiencies are harmful to children, the vegan diet causes nutritional deficiencies in children, thus the vegan diet is harmful to children.

Learn about your fad diets before you recommend them to others.

>>40693543
>eat meat and take steroids for years
>go vegan for a month
Hey look guys! This guy is strong because he's vegan! Just ignore all the small and weak vegans that don't take steroids...

>>40695666
>Think about how much worse the children would be
We can spend all day 'thinking' about it but that still proves nothing. It's not an argument and it's not how science works.

>the vegan diet causes nutritional deficiencies
Wrong. Not eating the right foods causes nutritional deficiencies, no matter what diet you follow. You can eat like shit on any diet

>>40695747
>We can spend all day 'thinking' about it but that still proves nothing.
Do you have any proof that what I suggested would not happen?

>Not eating the right foods causes nutritional deficiencies
Which is a pretty good summary of the vegan diet

>>40690928
He says, being totally unenvironmentally friendly by living in a first world country

Being a vegan is like telling someone to not piss in the ocean while we dump millions of kg of waste into it a year

You're a bunch of special snowflake morons

>>40695783
You're the one making the claim, the burden of proof is on you

>>40695800
I just proved that the vegan diet produces nutritional deficiencies. Nutritional deficiencies harm children. Therefore it is highly unlikely that causing further nutritional deficiencies will not harm children.

>>40695171

>that guy who posts case reports and doesn't realize the irony that they're published because they're unusual cases that don't represent what normally happens

>>40695972
Case studies that show the first few studies in action in a non experimental setting.

>unusual cases
Where did you read that those case studies were published for that reason?

>>40696154

if it was normal studies would show an epidemic of vegan birth complications but the vast majority of vegan births don't have issues. it's not normal. only the B12 deficiency case reports relate to the previous studies and B12 deficiency isn't an inevitable consequence of vegan diets nor is it exclusive.

>>40696315
It's no epidemic because vegans are a very small minority of the population.

>>40696350

approx 3% of US is vegan. there's enough that the amount of birth complications would be very noticeable if the majority of the children they had ran into deficiencies and birth complications.

>Mediterranean diet
>Best diet

>>40690928
>'all these animals use up Oxygen and increase CO2 and Methane levels in the atmosphere'
>doesn't kill and eat animals to stop them from doing so
You selfish bastard

>>40696366
Do they feed their babies a vegan diet, or do they start off breastfeeding? Breastfeeding is not vegan.

veganism is superior on all grounds, ethical, environmental, and health.
stay away from me cortisol increasing meats and free radicals

>>40696533

the studies you posted are about breastfeeding.

My dad died before the age of 58 from his third heart attack and get fucked if you think I'm going to do that as well. Also, I'm poor as fuck and even though omni faggots will say otherwise, it's super cheap

>>40696366
Of that 3%, how many are parents that force their children to be vegan?

>>40696535
"no"
Veganism has been proven bad for the person over and over again in this thread.

>>40696672

we all know vegans don't force their diets on people

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>>40696721
Every post by every vegan in this thread completely contradicts that

>>40696839

>the joke
>your head

>>40696687
But vegans live longer

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>>40696721

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>>40696906

>feed a 6 week old baby nothing but small portions of apple juice and soy milk
>baby gets fucked up
>this means vegan diets are bad

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>>40696721

>>40696945

vitamin C deficiency is known to be caused by lack of meat

>>40696989
No. The Inuit whilst eating their traditional foods rarely contracted scurvy. Still, a few points.

1. Vitamin C is only one molecule performing an ascorbic reaction. There are others.

2. Vitamin C uptake uses the same path as glucose (or glycogen? I don't remember. For carb rich diets). A keto diet thus reduces the vitamin C requirements drastically.

3. Vitamin C is more effectively recycled by the body during a keto diet.

4. The Vitamin C in organ meats are sufficient for carnivores.

I have been meat only for months now and I am pretty sure I'd notice scurvy.

>>40696945
>>40696906

Children of omnivore parents die of malnutrition in dumb circumstances too, the media just doesn't specifiy about their omnivorism

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/auburn-couple-arrested-in-death-of-injured-malnourished-baby/
http://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/news/communities/westside/article_10369aca-8037-11e6-ac4e-672c98750327.html
http://houston.cbslocal.com/2014/02/12/2-month-old-baby-dies-of-malnutrition-parents-arrested/
http://foxsanantonio.com/news/local/parents-on-trial-in-death-of-malnourished-sick-baby
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/mar/05/korean-girl-starved-online-game
http://www.ktre.com/story/23710223/2-charged-in-lufkin-babys-death-doctor-says-infant-was-severely-malnourished
https://www.aol.com/article/2016/02/29/residents-call-for-tougher-charges-against-parents-whose-baby-di/21320266/
http://www.wafb.com/story/17604042/mother-faces-murder-charge-in-babys-malnourishment-death

>>40697042

you misread the post but it was a joke anyway.

carnivores also make their own vitamin c. they don't get it from organ meats.

>>40696721
>we all know vegans don't force their diets on people

Generally most progress comes from individual decisions - but sometimes a greater push is needed. Our meat culture is so ingrained that many people don't think about where there meat came from. People don't think about or even know how many chickens and cows had to die just so you could make scrambled eggs.

Also vegan isn't a diet, it's a way of life: "Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose."

I might be contrary to other vegans but I genuinely don't have a problem with omnivores who raise and kill their own animals. I still think it is wrong (and moral arguments are on my side), but at least the animal would've had a better life than anything factory farmed. Unfortunately factory farming is where a disproportionate amount of meat comes from.

>>40697165

> I genuinely don't have a problem with omnivores who raise and kill their own animals. I still think it is wrong

so then you do have a problem just less of a problem

>>40697172

exposed

Yes, you're right. But it's also about where I direct my angry vegan superpowers. If Joe down the road takes care of his animals, do I really need to be concerned about it? I accept as a vegan that meat is unnecessary (provided you have a nutritionally complete diet), but I also am all about reducing suffering, so I can disregard Joe.

>>40697258

i got some Joe for you

*shits in a coffee mug*
*sprinkles in non-dairy creamer*

drink it. now.

>>40693103
Man, I'm coming out of being a vegetarian and everything you're saying is so irritating.

>not an argument
Humans evolved from apes specifically because they started cooking and eating meat, dramatically increasing the protein in their diets. To get the protein in one chicken breast, you'd need to eat like 2.5 cups of lentils, which is a "high protein" food for vegans. Comparing eating meat to eating dounts/candy is completely asinine- one of them is empty calories and the other is the most direct source of protein you'll find in nature.

Also
>getting vitamins from pills instead of food
I bet you also think your processed-to-shit nasoya tofu block is better for you than a piece of grass-fed beef

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>>40693311
>Humans are, like our ancestral primate cousins (monkeys, apes, etc.), herbivores

Then what the fuck are these for?

>>40697329

>Humans evolved from apes specifically because they started cooking and eating meat, dramatically increasing the protein in their diets.

one hypothesis of many

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6983330.stm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26591850

>fell for the grass-fed meme

>>40697349

those teeth look like they were designed to pierce an elephant's hide and shred its muscle fibers to bits

>>40697349

http://freefromharm.org/photo-galleries/9-reasons-your-canine-teeth-dont-make-you-a-meat-eater/

>>40697349

This isn't your point but might as well address it before someone else does

ability to do =/= doing

>>40697329
my man I think you missed the part where he said >not an argument, because that shit is in fact not an argument. That has no bearing on anyone's life right now, so the fact that our ancestors ate meat is irrelevant. Our ancestors also probably raped but that doesn't justify rape.

>all animals are given a B12 injection
You god damn retard, it's the same shit, it doesn't come from animals so it makes no difference as to whether it was injected into an animal or we take it as a vitamin.

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>>40697372
>believing the science from obviously biased sources

wew lad, might as well be reading buzzfeed

>>40697349
oooh boy those teeth are so sharp right? Like they can tear meat and crush bones.

>this is what omnis literally believe

Gorillas have huge fuck off teeth but don't eat meat

>>40697450

the points are pretty straightforward. there's not much the source could do to bias facts like canines being present in nearly all mammals and 9 examples of herbivores with way larger canines than us. canine teeth are useful for fighting off predators.

>>40690993
Good luck eating grass. 90% of vegan staples are crops that have to be rotated because they deplete the soil, ending up wasting more energy than a grass field with cows ever could.

Also good luck with your nutritional deficiencies unless you take supplements, which surprise surprise take a lot of wasted energy to make.

>>40697477

> 90% of vegan staples are crops that have to be rotated because they deplete the soil

and are able to be stored for years at a time

>omni talking about deficincies

kek, go take your psyllium husk and emergen-C powder

Do you ever see fat person logic and think to yourself "how can somebody be so deluded"?

That's what vegans think of carnivore logic

muh canine teeth
muh animals caught in harvesters
muh ancestors
muh apex predator
muh animals kill in the wild

>>40697165
>People don't think about or even know how many chickens and cows had to die

One night when I was making yakitori, I counted up the hearts and marveled at how fifty chickens died to bring my household dinner. It was delicious.

>>40697349
>are herbivores

boy do i have news for vegans

>>40697442
You're right, I should have explained what I meant better. Taking meat out of your diet is removing amino acids and vitamins that our bodies have evolved to need over hundreds of thousands of years. Yes, you can theoretically replace them with supplements but that's like using duct tape to fix something that shouldn't have broken in the first place. If you're taking a supplement then you're admitting that the food you're eating does not provide you with the nutrients you need. You're admitting that a vegan diet is not completely nourishing on its own.

I should clarify, I don't have a problem with vegans but I have a problem with anyone trying to claim their snowflake niche diet is better than everyone else's. As shown in the rest of this thread, none of you can actually prove it so just do what you want and let everyone else do what they want.

>injecting b12
where are you getting your meat, tyson farms?

>>40697517
>tips fedora


>one time some fit fag tried to tell me to hit the weights and get fit but I told him to fuck off
>that night when I was microwaving some butter I counted up the butter sticks I had put in the microwave to make my dinner.
>it was delicious

>>40697501
Normal people think that vegans and die hard carnivores are both retarded

>>40697501
So you're saying animals don't kill in the wild and people have never hunted before?

>>40697530
He didn't say I didn't know how many butters had to die for my dinner. I DO know, but it wasn't the accusation on the table.

>>40697533

just that they're bad excuses to eat meat

>>40697533
Animals kill because they need to survive, humans have absolutely no need for animal products so these two scenarios are not comparable.

Our ancestors also probably hunted for survival, but I'd say a solid 99% of people rn don't need to hunt for survival so that's irrelevant.

>>40697524

>Taking meat out of your diet is removing amino acids and vitamins that our bodies have evolved to need over hundreds of thousands of years.

What essential amino acid is exclusive to meat? You're making meat out to be some magic thing

>>40697483
>and are able to be stored for years at a time
Which has nothing to do with population energy requirements because if its being stored its not being eaten.

>kek, go take your psyllium husk and emergen-C powder
Why do you think I wouldn't be getting enough fiber or Vitamin C from eating both meats AND plants?

>>40697574
>Animals kill because they need to survive

This is hilariously stupid and wrong.

>>40690928
People Think its cruel to animals to EAT them... Pig gets a chance to Run away atleast.. Zucchini Couldn't Do Shit!!!

>>40697584

>Which has nothing to do with population energy requirements

not all the food that's grown in a year gets eaten that year. wheat is available year round because we grow tons of it, store and sell it, rotate crops, and cycle things. the staple crops you associate with soil depletion are mostly an issue when it comes to feeding cattle. if you think grass-fed animals are a solution look at how much of the rainforest is being destroyed to make land for cows to graze and then imagine how much more space it would require to raise enough catttle to take over the beef demands that we currently rely heavily on factory farming for.

>Why do you think I wouldn't be getting enough fiber or Vitamin C from eating both meats AND plants?

why do you think vegans would have deficiencies when their diet is more nutritionally adequate than other diets? >>40693184

omnivores are by far the biggest buyers of supplements and if you care about environmental destruction look into the impact that fish oil supplements have on our oceans

>>40697578
Way to ignore the entire rest of my post. It is not a magic thing, it happens to be a very efficient delivery system for a lot of good shit your body needs. I could link you articles listing off everything that vegans/vegetarians tend to be deficient in, but your hippie logic will tell me that you can still get (most of) those nutrients from plant foods. You're not wrong, but getting them from meat is a whole lot simpler.

Look bro, you're never going to convince me or any other meat eaters in this thread that they should become vegans. Just like I'm never going to convince you to stop being a vegan. You can be equally healthy or unhealthy either way, provided you put some effort into it. Vegans generally have to put in more effort, which is their personal choice.

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>>40697650

>it happens to be a very efficient delivery system for a lot of good shit your body needs.

and a lot of bad shit. food is a package. you're overexaggerating the nutrition of meat and downplaying the nutrition of whole plant foods. legumes and greens are especially nutritious and don't come with saturated fat and cholesterol, pro-oxidant heme iron, inflammatory molecules like neu5gc, etc. and have thousands of phytochemical compounds that help prevent degenerative diseases.

>Look bro, you're never going to convince me or any other meat eaters in this thread that they should become vegans. Just like I'm never going to convince you to stop being a vegan

the fucked up thing is that you'll admit to being closed-minded and unwilling to change no matter what I say but I've already listened to arguments that contradicted what I believed and changed my beliefs in response. that's how most people get from meat eater to vegan. it's not like i'm ethnically vegan and have to defend something I can't change. i eat this because i think the argument is a lot stronger and every time i argue with an omni using dumb stock excuses for why they can't stop eating meat it continues to look stronger.

>>40697693
You are also being closed-minded and resorting to stock arguments, but since it's to support the conclusion you want you don't see them that way.

>>40697702

how? fuck me if i wouldn't want to eat a big swiss mushroom burger or some chicken fajitas with sour creme. it's not the conclusion i want, it's just the conclusion that is. you can either lie to yourself or accept it.

>>40697693
Lol dude, I also eat the way I do because I think the argument is a lot stronger. Every time I argue with a vegan they also use the same dumb stock responses. I think you're just as close-minded as you think I am. It blows my mind that you can't understand that.

Again, I don't give a shit if you choose to only eat plant foods. I don't believe I get enough from that, so I choose to supplement with a few servings of meat a week. I literally had a cup of lentils as my lunch protein and some shredded chicken as my dinner protein today. Why is it so difficult for you to grasp that people who eat meat maybe feel healthier when they're eating meat, the same way you feel healthier when you're not?

>>40697741

wooooah, he turned my post around on me

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>>40692246
>>40695426
he is just trying to hard...
>fucking Girls
>Girls
sure

>>40695438
y u trig veg boy?

>>40696945
Should've activated those almonds

>>40691238
yeah it was all the vegetables and not the fact that they had no alcohol

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>tfw my ancestors were globetrotting super-gatherers tracking down specific plants to get all their necessary nutrients for the day.

>>40690928
they cut down forests, and ruin fauna to grow food. youre still doing tons of dammage to the enviroment.

>>40693689
>demolish all your fallacies
Do you know what a fallacy is?

>both omnivores if presented with the opportunity.

Yeah, pigs can be omnivores too if you starve them for long enough. A tiny portion of the primate diet is omnivorous (0.2%) but this is either do to shortage of 'natural' sources of food (fruit, nuts) or for "fun". Not because their bodies are adapted to consume meat (like us). Frankly, if we imitated their eating habits we would be a lot healthier as it would amount to roughly one piece of meat every MONTH, and no eggs or dairy.

>Define good, worthwhile life..

I have studied both normative and practical ethics as an undergrad. Please do not lecture me on these topics, especially when your understanding of them seems to have been plucked straight from a Stefan Molyneux podcast.

Look at this survey - https://philpapers.org/surveys/results.pl - nearly 1/4 of contemporary philosophers are consequentialist. Classical utilitarianism might not be particularly popular now but to reject all of teleology as a historical artefact is stupid.

In rejecting my counterargument via a relativist response you also reject your initial argument. You say it's unethical to NOT bring these animal's into existence - but why would you say existence is a good thing? If you are going to argue we don't both have any moral bedrock to stand on then you'll have to bite this bullet - that child rape and other disturbing acts are morally permissible. You also didn't have an answer for me claiming your argument was reductio ad absurdum. It obliges us morally to put all our human effort into producing living beings.

>it leads to the prisoner's dilema..

I really would like to know what you've been reading. I don't think I've spoken to any ethicist who would maintain that Utilitarianism's logical conclusion is a problem in computational science (P = NP) or game theory (prisoner's dilemma). It seems like you're throwing together phrases you think are intelligent.

>>40693808
>I make the case that life itself is axiomatic, it's existence is a priori..

Fucking hell. Do you know what 'a priori' means? 'A priori' knowledge is knowledge that does not rely on empirical investigation - it is 'prior' to experience. So 2+2=4, or the phrase "all bachelor's are unmarried", are both priori in the sense that neither required or require experience to verify - they are true by definition. In light of this, I have no idea wha the phrase "it's existence is a priori to it's persistence and must exist in that hierarchy" could even begin to mean. Do you?

>ensuring it existed..

So why not devote all your energy and resources into ensuring as many animals as possible exist? This seems to be the logical conclusion of your moral reasoning. (you won't accept this though - the only moral right in your mind is the way that the are acting currently, and you'll twist any truths or create any ludicrous arguments to fit this narrative)

>The reason humans eat animal products is because of their nutrition..

My goodness. Animal products are some of the least nutritionally dense foods on the planet. Go look at any antioxidant food ranking and you'll see them virtually at the very bottom. Caloric density is irrelevant as I said we could produce many times more 'calories' than we currently do if we used the land occupied by farm animals to grow plant based alternatives instead. Use your brain - energy doesn't magically appear without our intervention in the animal rearing process - we have to feed them food we could otherwise eat ourselves. They instead waste energy just existing and waiting to die. That's why the corn, etc. we feed them could feed the human population several times over on it's own.

>Corporations don't make people fat..

Right, but people aren't rational and are easily influenced. If they really had their own best interests in mind they wouldn't be fat. So to say this freedom maximises human efficiency or wellbeing or whatever is silly.

>>40699699
>Animal products are some of the least nutritionally dense foods on the planet. Go look at any antioxidant food ranking and you'll see them virtually at the very bottom.

> animal products lack antioxidants
> this means they're nutritionally low-dense
> what are proteins
> what are fats

human evolution and brain development is linked to meat consumption
http://www.karger.com/Article/Abstract/59672
http://search.proquest.com/docview/219659549?pq-origsite=gscholar
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0309174012003385


do vegans even think before they post or are their brains replaced with soy?

>>40697604
Enlighten us?

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>>40697791
You are a confused individual, putting food and your food's food on the same platter.

My dinner tonight. 400g rare ribeye drowned in butter and bacon fat, extra thick lamb chop around 350g, pack of bacon, half a block of French soft cheese.

Delicious food. All natural, organic, and murderous.

>>40699542
>why would you say existence is a good thing

because that's how i've defined it. if you don't agree that existence is preferable to non-existence we have no foundation for dialogue.

child rape is more permissible than child murder, both are reprehensible.

> obliges us morally to put all our human effort

only if your plan is to maximise moral good, which is utilitarianism, which i have explained to you is wrong.

>I really would like..

utilitarianism leads to a scientific dictatorship, reduces NP to P by gross simplification and leads to race conditions. Capitalism leads to tragedy of the commons, Utilitarianism leads to the prisoner's dilemma - where the best solution is for everyone to suffer for the maximal gain.

Are we speaking past each other? I've just repeated myself, I don't understand what you missed. I'm making analogies to explain to you why contemporary thinkers moved beyond these stumbling blocks once computational theory took off the ground and radically changed the world. Vegan ideas are analogous to 19th century geneticists who believed in purity of race through eugenics, population control, a socialist state that would provide the greatest good for everyone.. the Nazi's were environmentally conservative...

>>40699699
life existing is an axiom you must assume as true, to continue any further investigation. You cannot be alive if you are not alive already. And you can certaintly not continue living, if you were never alive to begin with. It's standard to define your assumptions before laying out any argument, I assume life existing is fundamental.

The phrase means LIFE (A BEING) MUST EXIST PRIOR TO IT PERSISTING (LIVING ON). It's really simple... this explodes the vegans argument about killing less animals being a moral good, it is a moral good only relative to killing more animals. The faulty assumption is that by killing less animals you actually kill less animals.

>>40690928
>because it's extremely inefficient for the environment and for the world

jesus..... saving the planet....

on behalf of all who are unworthy, thank you so so much

>>40699742
>> what are proteins
>> what are fats
What the fuck? Every food is composed of macronutrients (fat/protein/carbs) - does that mean every food is nutritionally dense? And again, I refer you to the healthiest populations on Earth (Okinawans, Adventist Vegetarians, certain groups of sub Saharan Africans) who eat diets LOW in protein and fat.

When you say "nutritionally dense" every is obviously going to assume you mean dense in micro-nutrients. Which animals products are not.

>human evolution and brain development is linked to meat consumption

Actually, no. Contemporary anthropological research indicates that it was the discovery of fire - and by extension the cooking of starchy vegetables to harness their maximum energy potential (and also provide us with a source of food that no other animals had - starch is 20x more digestible cooked).

The brain runs on glucose. Meat is composed of protein and fat:

>up to 53% of energy is lost converting fatty acids to glucose: http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1002116

>and protein is a horrible energy source: http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/diabetes/62/5/1435.full.pdf

Given that carbohydrates are such an efficient source of glucose and the brain runs on glucose it makes sense that the majority of brain growth occurred when we discovered how to cook starches. It also seems the case that the recent anthropological trend of a decrease in brain size is associated with an increased consumption in animal products.

>https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/13/science/for-evolving-brains-a-paleo-diet-full-of-carbs.html?_r=0
>http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/682587?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
>https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cooking-up-bigger-brains/

>>40699839
>utilitarianism leads to a scientific dictatorship, reduces NP to P by gross simplification and leads to race conditions. Capitalism leads to tragedy of the commons, Utilitarianism leads to the prisoner's dilemma - where the best solution is for everyone to suffer for the maximal gain.

Are we speaking past each other? I've just repeated myself, I don't understand what you missed. I'm making analogies to explain to you why contemporary thinkers moved beyond these stumbling blocks once computational theory took off the ground and radically changed the world. Vegan ideas are analogous to 19th century geneticists who believed in purity of race through eugenics, population control, a socialist state that would provide the greatest good for everyone.. the Nazi's were environmentally conservative...
My god.. I wonder what my History of Philosophy professor would make of this..

You conveniently glossed over the majority of my arguments. Please just admit you don't know what you're talking about..

>>40699894
>>40699839
>utilitarianism leads to a scientific dictatorship, reduces NP to P by gross simplification and leads to race conditions. Capitalism leads to tragedy of the commons, Utilitarianism leads to the prisoner's dilemma - where the best solution is for everyone to suffer for the maximal gain.
>Are we speaking past each other? I've just repeated myself, I don't understand what you missed. I'm making analogies to explain to you why contemporary thinkers moved beyond these stumbling blocks once computational theory took off the ground and radically changed the world. Vegan ideas are analogous to 19th century geneticists who believed in purity of race through eugenics, population control, a socialist state that would provide the greatest good for everyone.. the Nazi's were environmentally conservative...
My god.. I wonder what my History of Philosophy professor would make of this..
You conveniently glossed over the majority of my arguments. Please just admit you don't know what you're talking about..


**corrected

>>40699839
(ctd)
>The faulty assumption is that by killing less animals you actually kill less animals.

This might be the case if the animals in question had a natural population in the wild without any human interaction, like say whales or dolphins. It's definitely not the case when it comes to cows, pigs, chickens, animals that exist solely because human beings farm them. So humans raise their population numbers for consumption, less consumption lowers numbers, and you are now committing a greater moral evil by forcefully declining a population preventing future generations from being born.

As purely a moral argument it is sloppy and lazy thinking.

I've already addressed the rest of what you said.

>people aren't rational and are easily influenced

So what you're basically admitting here is you are attempting to manipulate people into your point of view.

I already addressed your question about freedom in my original post, which you obviously didn't thread up and follow here:
>>40692704

>people must be ruled
>people must be free

this is the tension that builds and collapses every great civilisation. a fleeting balance leaps progress forward.

I don't want to rule them or for them to be perfectly free, I want a balance to be struck. You want to rule them. You wan't to paint me as an ideological opponent, so you assume I want anarchy and chaos, since that is the opposite to your utopian ideals. I am a pragmatist, I will never eliminate people like you or people on the opposite end of you, I want to balance you morons out so we don't end up with mass state sponsored genocide or a 3rd world hell hole.

If eating vegan was better for you, you would not need to advertise it aggressively. Vegans would live longer, have healthier lives, gain all kinds of benefits socially from this, and it would spread organically without any need for this proselytising. It's very simple to discuss religion, show the benefits, no benefits? fuck off then.

>>40699902
>what my History of Philosophy professor

why don't you ask him? read it back to him verbatim. I don't have the time or space here to write out a 30 page paper, so I simplified it to the situations we find the discussion in.

what are your arguments, list them
>1
>2
>3

I will address each one.


>Do you know what a fallacy is?

>Veganism
Argument from ignorance
Shifting the burden of proof
Ecological fallacy

>Greater and more intelligent men than you have tried and failed at that task I'm afraid.
False attribution
False authority / Appeal to authority

> I've seen better arguments from my 7 year old cousin.
Red herring
Ad hominem
Appeal to ridicule

>my History of Philosophy professor
Appeal to authority

>Please just admit you don't know what you're talking about.
Avoiding the argument
Dismissive language / Appeal to ridicule

legit do I have to do this? Your entire frame of thinking is rickety. You don't read what I write closely enough and force me to repeat it back to you... the very first thing I wrote ITT sums up very nicely a complete rebuttal of Veganism as given by you. Three paragraphs here:

>>40692704
each deal with what is wrong with what you wrote. done. read, read slowly, read carefully and think. "Am I emotionally married to this idea, or is this a logical thing I am doing."

I have zero emotion btw, I couldn't care less if everyone turned vegan or vice versa. But when you claim to make logical arguments, and make these sweeping statements like- "no good argument against veganism!", red flags pop up in my mind. Because you can't make good arguments against anything, you need to make good arguments FOR something, and through those you reinforce the negative position. I mean, I've heard no good arguments for not drinking your own urine. It even has some purported health benefits. Should we all do it then?

>>40699869
> what are proteins in fats
indispensible components in muscle/hormone biosynthesis found in animal products and to a MUCH lesser extent in plants

> inb4 that retarded infograph showing 300g of spinach has as much protein as 300g steak

> I refer you to the healthiest populations on Earth (Okinawans, Adventist Vegetarians, certain groups of sub Saharan Africans)

Okinawans eat diets high in fish. Sub-Saharan Africans have some of the lowest life expentancies in the world. Not sure where you're going with this

> Cooking of starchy vegetables

source? Oh wait you have none

http://www.livescience.com/23671-eating-meat-made-us-human.html
http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter

scholarly sources are in those articles

> the brain runs on glucose, meat is composed of protein and fat

so then why don't primarily meat-eating cultures like the Inuit die?

> Given that carbohydrates are such an efficient source of glucose and the brain runs on glucose it makes sense that the majority of brain growth occurred when we discovered how to cook starches.
> the human brain hasn't evolved in millions of years all we had to do was eat more starch

>>40699759
that is too damn big to be a lamb chop

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>>40697693

>>40699759
how's the butthole feeling? puckered up and tight? or swollen and engorged?

One of my main queries with veganism is why are humans so well adapted to hunting?

Forward facing eyes for focusing on prey, unlike herbivorous animals which have side facing eyes to view incoming predators. Also makes sense when considering how good we are at tracking fast moving objects, like thrown projectiles and such.

humans can out endure any other animal over distance, which makes sense when it comes to hunting animals by driving animals to exhaustion, but not when simply foraging for plants

and fine motor control which helps when it comes to using tools, especially our shoulders and arms, which seem to be specifically evolved for throwing javelin like objects.

>>40690928

Ethics and for the environment.

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>>40699869
adventists are also religious extremists, and okinawans/dagos take it easy.

imo taking it easy seems to be more important than having massive vegetarian farts for your entire life

>>40700220

what the fuck. I've read some really stupid comments here but this is over the fucking top of stupidity

>>40694050
The only reason that a vegetarian diet is shown to have more health benefits is because when the studies are done they are always comparing vegans to average people who eat shit. Pretty much anyone who pays any attention to what they eat eats healthier than the average person. Yes, being a vegan is probably better than chowing down on fast food and soda all day, but there is NO evidence to show that eating purely vegan is better for you than eating a healthy and balanced plant and animal diet.

>>40700281
Ok, thanks for your input

>>40700281
>t. worried alien posing as vegan, Z'rblockc! They know our plans!

>>40700220
This is an appeal to nature and not really a strong argument in the 21st century.

>>40700891
I agree, I think now it's possible to avoid causing suffering we should, I was just wondering about what people who claimed humans were never designed to eat meat thought

>>40701303
Nobody can genuinely deny that humans were and still are hunters biologically speaking. If people do then they obviously are blind towards this fact and you should try to educate them.

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>>40701303
>>40700220

Keep in mind that this is what human ancestors looked like before meat eating was a norm. We've always had forward-facing eyes and good movement tracking as a result of evolving from tree-dwelling primates. We've always been able to use tools and throw things. Most primates are extremely aggressive and prone to fighting, even the herbivorous ones.

We also definitely can't out-endure every other animal, but our ability to cover great distances is a result of us become bipedal, which made us slower but more efficient at walking, an adaptation that allowed us to spread out and settle in new territories. It also allows us to carry things while moving, like water, which otherwise would hugely impair our ability to travel in heat. Further north, where it's not so hot, humans started relying on hunting dogs.

>>40700293

Everyone says this but it's not true. There's not a conspiracy in the medical literature to compare healthy vegans to unhealthy omnis. Vegans are just on average healthier than comparable omnis, even when those omnis are relatively healthy. See >>40695038

>>40702508
We never came from homo erecti you ducking mong, they were a separate line and they died off 'somehow'

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>>40702569

I should've used a pic with just australopithecus so you wouldn't get confused