Im going Vegan

>>39629156
Why are you going vegan? Is it a moral choice or a health choice?

>>39629156
>Convince me not to
Why? It's the only logical choice tbqh

t. lifelong omnivore soon to be vegan

>>39629156
The only reason I don't also go vegan is because i've been trolled into thinking soy causes mantits because of too much time of 4chan. How'd you overcome your personal ideological hangups?

>>39629180
I'm prolly not gonna eat much soy. Actually, I'm going to keep eating eggs for a while. It's cheap protein, and doesn't come with the same downsides as milk

>>39629156
I reckon you're just not really looking for information to help you make a decision, but rather just virtue signalling. When people post threads saying "convince me not to do this thing", I always think, Why? You're the one that has apparently made the decision to do it. Why do I give a fuck if you go through with your decision or not? If you want to be a normal person and have a discussion like, "Is x thing really a good idea? Whats your opinion on it?" then fine, do that - but lets stop this "I Swear To God I'll Do It Don't Make Me Do It" bullshit

>>39629162
Health choice but also a bit of morality involved. When you really think about it the meat industry as well as dairy industry is absolute shit. One thing is holding me back. I cant take whey protein , it makes me sick to my stomach. I also cant do most dessert flavors of any kind of protein powder. I know isopure low carb has a juice one..do any vegan alternatives exist?

>>39629156
Youre not worth the time. Fuck you.

>>39629156
i'm an omnivore who cheats with shit food who was previously vegan, veggie, and tbqh it's fine just eat right

>>39629156
>He thinks he can make gains by eating plants
Good luck fag

>>39629208
Op never said anything about "making gains". Op could literally be involved in any sport. You made a stupid assumption.

>>39629229
>implying /fit/ is really about fitness
>implying this isn't just the bodybuilding board now

>>39629259
>implying people still care what you have to say.

>>39629268
>implying I implied that anyone cared what I have to say
>implying you didn't reply to my first comment because you cared what I said
>implying you won't reply to this one

>>39629283
Not other poster but..I don't care either. You don't have to be a dickhead because you were relentlessly bullied in high school

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>>39629156
no one cares.

veganism only makes people healthier/lose weight if the person did not care about his diet at all before going vegan.

left-wing politicians are hardcore using veganism to gain voters (green party funded a documentary to make people think that the milk and meat industry were responsible for 51% of greenhouse gas emissions - when the U.N. says it's 19%, the EPA says it's 9%)

you'll be that faggot forcing his friends to accommodate his faggoty trends

>>39629288
>i-I don't care
>still replying
Get a clue

>>39629308
(i meant the UK's green party, btw)

>>39629156
Do it it if you want haha if it works it works.

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>>39629156
Why should we? It's your choice if you want to lose your gainz (if any). Do whatever, fag.

>>39629180

The milk you drink has far more estrogen than and soy products you will ingest.

>>39629182

CHOLESTEROL = EGGS = ENJOY YOUR HEART ATTACK

Does anyone know any good vegan protein powders that are similar to the isopure juice proteins?

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>>39629450
>Does anyone know any good vegan protein powders that are similar to the isopure juice proteins?
>any good vegan protein powders
>vegan protein
>vegan

>>39629531
this is actually a thing. Fuck off pleb

>>39629156

Good on you, OP. The worst thing about being vegan is dealing with meat tards hillbillies giving you shit.

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>>39629589
>actually a thing

>>39629599
I like your pictures but you are atistic

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>>39629611
>but you are atistic
Missed an "r"

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>>39629259

>bodybuilding board
>only real advice is to do a heavy compound based routine and drink a gallon of milk a day
>bodybuilding board
>no curls train like an off season football player
>bodybuilding board
>bodybuilding

>>39629308

>
left-wing politicians are hardcore using veganism to gain voters (green party funded a documentary to make people think that the milk and meat industry were responsible for 51% of greenhouse gas emissions - when the U.N. says it's 19%, the EPA says it's 9%)

That seems to be based on a report where they looked at things in more detail and added in the contribution of other things like land use and the respiration of the animals to the total burden of animal agriculture, rather than counting them as separate things and only looking at the base effect

http://www.worldwatch.org/files/pdf/Livestock%20and%20Climate%20Change.pdf

>>39629441
The estrogen in milk is negligible. Lol. Whey and casein are superior proteins to soy. Hands down.

The amount of cholesterol raised by eatings eggs is non-linear. Similar to a function with a radical.

>>39629638
>That seems to be based on a report where they looked at things in more detail and added in the contribution of other things like land use and the respiration of the animals to the total burden of animal agriculture, rather than counting them as separate things and only looking at the base effect

They made the most ridiculous assumptions they could think of.

>H-hey guys, maybe if that land would not be used to feed cows, someone would magically finance using that land to produce the most energy-efficient biomass fuel that exists!

Fuck off, the two guys that made that paper would not have graduated doing research like that in college.

>ITT: Fucktards that don't know the difference between phytoestrogen and mammalianestrogen

>>39629180
Soy is in literally everything nowadays.

>>39629156
Enjoy your jaundice.

>>39629156
Stop. Don't. Come back.

>>39629190
who hurt you?

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>>39629156

Enjoy having micro deficiencies faggot

>>39629156
Do it. I went vegan three years ago and I've been hitting my goals at the same rate, my blood tests are perfect (seriously, if you're vegan get it checked occasionally), it fixed some other issues I had which I now realize were due to lactose intolerance, and i eat a lot healthier. When you're vegan you can get your protein, vitamins and omega 3s completely isolated from cholesterol and extra fats.

Just make sure you have enough:
>soy free protein (lentils, wheat protein, nuts, seeds, beans etc)
>b12 (get vitamin supplements, nutritional yeast, stuff like that)
>iron (spinach, all the same protein stuff, supplements)
And you're basically set. You can eat a lot more since calories are less dense in plant based food, so it's easier to not worry about cuts, but you will have to get a taste for a lot of new foods. Some find this fun, but it was tough for me at first.

>>39632876
sounds expensive too

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>>39629156
If you don't eat meat then you're literally a faggot who does not realize that the inferior exist for the superior.

>>39629156
Plants want to live. Sure, they can't move around like animals but they make choices where and how to grow and try their best to survive. Plants suffer too, just because they don't squeal doesn't mean they don't. If you want to be logically consistent, you should just eat nothing and starve to death.

Or, maybe, stop being a fucking pussy and realise that every living thing exists to dominate and consume other living things, to build something greater. Do you want to be a beast who absorbs the strength of other creatures, or a little sissy cuck who cries about it?

>>39629156
>Im going Vegan
Don't.
>Convince me not to.
It's retarded and you're just jumping on a meme diet bandwagon. It's not better for you and it doesn't make you a better person than people who eat meat
>>39629185
There is nothing inherently moral or immoral about eating animal products.
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/07/vegetarianism-and-veganism-best.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/07/vegetarianism-and-veganism-are-as.html
>>39629180
>is because i've been trolled into thinking soy causes mantits
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/soy-is-devil-and-not-in-fun-way.html
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/soy-is-devil-and-not-in-fun-way-22-12.html
>>39629441
>The milk you drink has far more estrogen than and soy products you will ingest.
Soy products have more and for milk to give you and negative effects you would have to be on some sort of super GOMAD and drink alot of the stuff
>>39629441
>CHOLESTEROL = EGGS = ENJOY YOUR HEART ATTACK
That's been repeatedly debunked, Eggs/animal fats/Saturated fats aren't the devil
>https://www.anabolicmen.com/fats-and-testosterone/

>>39629156
Ok, OP. Your brain and hormones are made out of fat and cholesterol. When you cut these out, you lose the things your brain and bod want most and replace it with pseudo food. Do it if you want, but it's just as easy to eat meat ethically (free life non abused) >>39629156
>>39629156

>>39632876
> good advice in a vegan thread

Am I hallucinating

>>39629156
I don't know; don't you like food?

A big reason I'm not vegan is because I actually love food. How am I supposed to host an eight-course à la russe meal if I can't even have a nice camembert or gruyère? What sort of decent human being serves a plat principal with no meat? No café Liégeois? Not even chicken? Or ham? Or fish?

Sushi is not something I want to go my entire life without.

There's just so much wonderful food in the world that you'd be cutting yourself off from if you're vegan. I mean, the things I listed are some of the reasons I personally am not a vegan, so you might be different. Still, if you have moral hangups about the food industries, you could still eat meat and just try to be more conscious about how it's sourced.

>>39633022
This guy gets it.

>>39629184
Underrated post.

>>39629156
If for moral reasons, good for you.

If for health reasons, why?

>>39633132
If you can't argue against veganism without resorting to pseudoscience it's pretty sad.

Veganism is very susceptible to postmodern deconstruction

>>39633022
This right here

>>39632933
No it doesn't. Dried beans and lentils are cheaper than your mom.

>>39629185
If you're worried about animal welfare in factory farming you could always budget for and buy more ethically raised products. I get grass-fed beef, free range eggs, and dairy products from small farms at my local farmers market. I also buy all my vegetables there. If you think the fruits and vegetables bought in a grocery store are somehow more moral than the factory farms then I'm gonna burst your bubble. They are from factory farming operations too, they treat their labor like shit, they use extensive petro chemicals, and transport products from distant lands all leading to higher rates of pollution.
>inb4 it's too expensive
I get it. I supplement my shopping at the grocery store too. It's just too convenient not to and our food infrastructure isn't especially, ironically, in distant rural areas where I live. It bothers me though that ppl think that vegetables are farmed ethically just because they are veggies or that vegan processed food isn't as much of junk food as other junk food.

>>39633160
>If you can't argue against veganism without resorting to pseudoscience
>Real science is pseudoscience
>it's pretty sad.
Like how it's sad veganism's largely pseudoscience and only boils down to a personal and arguably unwise choice to rid your diet of some of the most nutritious and healthy food you could eat.
>Veganism is very susceptible to postmodern deconstruction
Because it's largely a giant load and a bandwagon diet

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>>39633160
It's funnier to make vegans ass mad before you deconstruct their silly fad tho...

>>39633055
>good advice
If he wants to jump on a bandwagon, rid nutritious and healthy food from his diet, and waste time, money and effort, supplementing for results he could get by just simply eating that same food

>>39633306
Every dietary expert organization on the planet advises to restrict saturated fat and total fat. Most also advise to restrict cholesterol. So claiming that saturated fat and cholesterol are harmless is very much debunked pseudoscience that is on the level of denying anthropogenic global warming. Calling eggs and butter "healthy" goes beyond that into the realm of the absurd.

>>39633355
>every
Yah nah man that's a troll ass way to start a post. Eggs are good for you. Butter is necessary to certain recipes and should be used accordingly. I'm not gonna say make a butter sandwich but a bit to make a sauce ain't gonna hurt you. Also dietary cholesterol does not equal cholesterol in your body, in fact there is pretty good research that shows the hard sticky kind of cholesterol that builds up in arteries is actually generated by the body in reaction to a diet with too much sugar.

>>39633355
>Every dietary expert organization on the planet advises to restrict saturated fat and total fat.
Gross overgeneralization
>So claiming that saturated fat and cholesterol are harmless is very much debunked pseudoscience
Completely harmless, no. Not the unhealthy abomination they're made out to be yes.
And the studies listed within the last post here>>39633022 are everything but debunked pseudoscience.
>Calling eggs and butter "healthy" goes beyond that into the realm of the absurd.
They can be quite healthy for you and if you're going to continue down this line of argumentation read the anabolic men article in my comment above again

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>>39629156
Vegetarian you dumbass. Oh wait you gonna stop eating meat?

>>39629156
what are you going to eat lmao

>tofu
enjoy ur estrogen lol

>beans
enjoy ur female body

>spinach
8.6kg a day to hit protein intake

eat meat you faggot

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>>39629156

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>>39633659
Damn, I need to get some this American style bacon. Looks so nice. Pic related is what it looks like here.

>moral reasons

So if all of a sudden 50% of the people went vegan and we wouldn't need cows anymore as example, but their space for growing veggies, what happens to the cows?

Are vegans slowly endangering domesticated animals that don't live in the wild anymore while simultaneously turning into low test cucks?

>>39629156

I'm assuming that you are a homosexual, based solely on the fact that you're even considering this. If so, then sure, by all means, do it.

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>>39629308

>emissions are a bad thing

lmafuckingo

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>>39632948

>>39634003
I dont give a fuck about the animals. But cattle algriculture is the nr1, man controlled, environmental issue. 1liter milk = 44 liters of water. Every sain person would choose the milk over the water. 100gr of meat = .... Im all in for growing our own meat but were not yet there. But cutting forests for cattle, their co2 production and the amount of water and food they need to grow is a big issue.

Yes the real issue is overpopulation, but this should be fixed too.

>>39634449
I meant choose the water over the milk. Obviously not for gains but on a global food shortage/efficiency scale.

>>39634447
And that's why he lost then sudoku'd like a pussy

>>39634449
If you raise cattle on pasture it is very sustainable as permanent pasture is a co2 sequester. Costs would go up as yields in both dairy and beef will be adversely affected BUT you can raise your beef and eat it too so to speak.
Overpopulation is a meme from like the 60s as world population growth has plateaued since the 90s. Sooo stfu

just get a goat and a chicken and treat them nicely
vegetarian master race

>>39632876
>>39632933
This is not expensive at all, I do this and it costs me $30 a week tops and I'm 6'4 215 @15%, if you want perspective for yourself

>>39635151
>Overpopulation is a meme from like the 60s as world population growth has plateaued since the 90s. Sooo stfu

You led with a good point but then went full retard. Overpopulation doesn't literally mean you can't fit everyone on the planet you dumb shit. It means there aren't sufficient resources to support everyone, especially if they want to have a decent middle class life.

So yeah, the planet could support 20 billion people of we all lived like a bunch of impoverished Bangladeshi beggars, but I quite enjoy my high standard of living and want to keep it. The best way to keep my quality of life is to support a sustainable consumption rate, which realistically means fewer people.

And even if population growth rates have largely plateaued, that doesn't mean the population stopped growing. It just means exponential growth stopped. Our population, and it's associated consumption, is still far too high and getting higher

>>39629156
its gay

>>39633022

> there's nothing inherently immoral about eating animal products

How about killing and enslaving sentient animals?

>>39633022

>That's been repeatedly debunked, Eggs/animal fats/Saturated fats aren't the devil

No it hasn't, and the link you posted doesn't even address that.

>>39636707
You wipe out entire biomes and murder entire species of animals so you can have a diet that slightly mimics what you would get from eating an omnivorous diet

I don't mind when meat eaters carry on eating meat because they don't care for ethics or health. But when you're ignorant to the fact that it is legitimately healthier and the ethical thing to do I can't help but think you're an absolute mongoloid

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>>39629156
don't

>>39629156
Its your body why should I give a fuck

Less competition for me.

>>39636707
>sentient
That word doesnt mean what you think it means also youre a massive fucking hypocrite. Even that chair your fat ass is on has animal products in it.

>>39636729

> murder animals
no. That's literally what meat eaters do
> wipe out biomes
no. It's much more inefficient and ecologically unfriendly to produce meat
> slightly mimics an omnivorous diet
Plant based diets are healthier. Enjoy heart disease you fucking idiot

>>39629308
Not to mention the logistical down side of the vegan meme.
Look at what happened in Peru, their staple food, quinoa, is now too expensive for the locals to buy. Millions of pounds of the stuff is shipped out to the US on giant diesel tankers to feed the vegans.

>>39636760

Nope, it's the correct word. Granted we are more intelligent than animals but they are proven to feel and perceive.

You're an idiot for trying to defend a lifestyle that is inherently unethical and unhealthy

>>39629156
One argument would be that veganism is too extreme and unnecessary. I was too on the verge of being vegan. It was purely for moral reasons because of industrialization of meat and dairy production, impact on environment etc.

But that would be waste of your capacity as animal, throwing out omnivore advantage that cost millions of years of evolution for a bit of moral high ground. Instead, I set 2 days a week I allow myself to eat meat (poultry and fish only though) and I allow myself a 6-pack of eggs a week. I care a lot more about where my food comes from, I try to set my standards higher every year, buying local, free range, get to know farmers etc..

Im not going to fret over a steak if my boss treats me to lunch but things I can influence, I will.

>>39636786

>quinoa is "vegan food" for vegans to eat

>>39629156
Its great. I get to pretend im better than other people and other people get to call me a faggot for doing nothing for the environment other than inflating my ego.

>>39636809

>But that would be waste of your capacity as animal, throwing out omnivore advantage that cost millions of years of evolution for a bit of moral high ground

You have the ability to kill and eat fellow humans. Is it extreme and unnecessary to not cannibalize people? We spent millions more years as herbivores before we became omnivorous, and our omnivorous adaptations are pretty shit since they don't protect us into age old from the unhealthy aspects of meat.

cheaper, healthier, u get stronger immune system, less inflammation and disease. u get to eat varied and good food that makes u feel light and strong. and along the way u learn to make delicious real goddman homemade food and dishes to impress bitches, or healthy desserts and candy.

why not, op.

>>39636810
There are only so many non-soy protein sources.

>>39636822
Modesty is the key word.

>>39636822
>You have the ability to kill and eat fellow humans.
Not him but you're a fucking moron and the reason why no one likes vegans.

Canabalism is actually poisonous to humans and unsustainable you fucking idiot.

>>39636809

> not killing sentient beings for the sake of convenient food
> not enslaving sentient beings for the sake of convenient food
> not sacrificing the lives of sentient animals for "omnivore advantage" (aka cancer and heart disease)
> not damaging the environment for convenient muh protein

And vegans are the extreme ones? No. vegans abstain from extreme practices

>>39633022
You made no argument, you just said stuff. What makes it a meme diet? Maybe IIFYM is the meme diet. Who are you to be the determiner of what's moral or not?

>>39636836

Every other grain that isn't quinoa, every type of bean, lentil, or pea, nuts/seeds, and whatever green veggies contribute. Quinoa isn't a special food you need to eat, it's a stereotypical food.

>>39636794
You're still using that word wrong. Maybe get an education before using words you dont understand next time kiddo.

>>39629185
Vega sports performance powder
It's soy free and really tasty
A bit pricey but being vegan kinda is at times
Not vegan but I love the taste/lactose intolerant as well

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Going Vego cured my acne on my face and my body.
Also lost my grandfather to a heart attack and currently losing my mother to surveer crohn's, both caused by meat. feels bad bro.

Smoothies are also based bro, pack your smoothies with kale powder and chia seed for protein in take.

also if you need exta calories or fats, eat peanut butter with quinoa cakes bro.

You shouldn't trust a diet that kills children.

>>39636846

>immediately angry

Cannablism is already practiced in many parts of the world, and how would it not be sustainable? Our ancestors engaged in a lot of cannibalism too.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150416-our-ancestors-were-cannibals

Why limit yourself like a litttle cuckboy? Just eat some humans, bro, you evolved to be a cannibal and eat humans. It's not unethical, it's just nature, survival of the fittest. If you don't eat humans, humans will take over the planet and ruin it with pollution.

>>39629156
>supporting the grain monopoly
The irony here is that vegans are trading one moral good (trying to save animals) with an even worse evil (punishing disadvantaged humans)

Go look up who owns the worlds grains. Then look at food speculation.

Imagine Wall Street + Monopoly + Hitler on steroids genociding humans. Thats what supporting the grain industry is. In fact we should just start calling them grain nazis instead of vegans.

>>39636858

> you are using that word wrong

1. No I'm not. This is not malapropriotism whatsoever. You simply do not understand what sentience is. Research the definition bro you'll find that animals can be described as sentient.

2. Even if I was, I wouldn't be "using the word wrong". I would, however, be using it wrongly. Poor grammar.

>>39629156
Honestly, I'd be doing the same, if I was not in an environment that would prevent me from doing so without being laughed at and isolated. I'm already seen as the dude who's always dieting (despite being on a bulk and eating like shit most of the time). If I were to go vegan, I don't think I would be able to handle the banter. To make matters worse, I really like the taste of unhealthy animal products like butter, steak and milk so I wouldn't want to give up on those. I might switch to a low sodium plant based diet once I'm around 40 or 50, to try to keep my arteries from clogging but until then I wanna enjoy my food and gains.

>>39636893
Youre god damn right im angry at how YOU MAKE US VEGANS LOOK BAD YOU RETARDED FUCKING CUNT

Even I know cannabalism is literally fucking poisonous and youre straight up fucking lying making everything worse because youre an uneducated idiot who jumped on a bangwagon instead of learning WHY you should be a vegan.

So for the love of god either shut the fuck up or fuck off.

>>39636879

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbHa_FaT7wQ

>>39636908
>tries to grammar nazi and fails
Pfthahahahahhahahahahah

>>39636900
>not realizing he's the main supporter of the grain industry because monocrops are most commonly used to feed livestock
Oh shit nigger, what are you doing?

>>39636939
They're not. The grain industry is primary supported by human consumption and goods, livestock feed isnt as relevant although they are slightly involved.

>>39636182
What middle class is, is like your opinion man. I would be very happy in a small house, consuming only the clothing, food, etc. Necessary for existence. Some books to read etc. I live in the country so I could grow what I need myself. I know how to brew beer, ferment apples and grapes, and make food preserves. Me and my thicc farm waifu can take care of our brood without ever taking from the earth more than we need to. Not everyone can do this I know but they should have thought about that before they moved to the city and became degenerates acting like eating more salad will change the way our entire distribution system for everything is totally fuvked

>>39636927

>Even I know cannabalism is literally fucking poisonous

People around the world practice cannibalism and don't develop prion disease, and that's mainly caused by eating the brain. We've adapted to resist this disease too.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0410_030410_cannibal_2.html

Eating animal products can lead to certain diseases like heart disease and cancers. It's not immoral to eat people then, right? We're cannibals by nature.

>>39636926

> I'm a pussy

I've been working blue collar since I was seventeen. I've been vegan since I was eighteen. If anything they respected me for it, they didn't understand it and you get some jokes but they do respect the commitment at the end of the day. These were very traditional, blue collar 30+ year old men too. Do it for a few months before you tell them.

>>39636848
Despite you being a troll, woman, or Californian male I will respond:

> not killing sentient beings for the sake of convenient food
how fucking sentient are chicken or fish?
> not enslaving sentient beings for the sake of convenient food
This is wrong, I explained in my >>39636809 post. That is why I care about how and where my meat was raised.
> not sacrificing the lives of sentient animals for "omnivore advantage" (aka cancer and heart disease)
This is probably due to overconsumption of animal products, not consumption itself. Moderation, dude.
> not damaging the environment for convenient muh protein
Again, see >>39636809 . Support farmers that care about how they do their work and what they produce. It will be more expensive thus reducing the amount you consume. It goes hand in hand. Same the other way - you support megafarms where cows never seen grass or sun and eat some shit with antibiotics, meat gets cheaper because of volume so you can afford more of it. Hand in hand, vicious cycle. You as a consumer have power of decision.

>>39636949
40% of produced grain is fed to livestock. And why do you act like you wouldn't be eating any grains in a standard western diet? Fuck are you eating for carbs? No rice, no wheat, no oats, no pasta, no bread? Because all of that shit is grains too.

>>39636965
Your own fucking source PROVES YOU WRONG DUMBFUCK

Holy shit FUCK off. Please for the love of god everything you post is literal bullshit and making vegans look worse not better.

I've actually started eating a shit-ton of soy. Like almost every day I eat a soy-based product, and I drink shakes made from soy protein and drink them with soy milk. I just went soy crazy. It's been like two weeks, no difference so far in anything, we'll see how it goes. I'm eating more of some supposedly estrogen-blocking foods just to be on the safe side, though. When should I expect side-effects, if any?

>>39636982
Yeah no its far less than that. Also you proved my point for me although I doubt you can comprehend why

>>39636983

>I AM MAD AND CAN'T RESPOND

That's what I thought, pussy

>>39636998
>you proved my point for me
I did in fact not. Your original point was that only vegans are somehow supporting the grains industry and you are not, which is by any standards false. If anything you are supporting the grains industry more (my original point) due to consuming grains in general in addition to also consuming them on the side.

>>39636971

> how sentient are chicken or fish
It's not a scale. They're sentient end of story. How sentient are newborn children?

> this is wrong.
No it isn't. Research the definition of free range. It can mean they have access to outside of the cage for 5 minutes with upwards of 20 chickens in a cubic metre. The certification is meaningless. Consider how many chickens are raised for meat each year and then consider how much land that would require for the idyllic free range farm you have in your head. It doesn't exist. It cannot exist on this scale.
> probably due to overconsumption
Processed meats and red meats are proven carcinogens. I can't be arsed researching poultry but it will not be as rosy as you've led yourself to believe.
> small scale farmers that care for their animals
It cannot exist in this society. The whole process has been industrialised because it's the only way to meet the demand. You supporting local farmers doesn't help.

>>39637089
>general in addition to also consuming them on the side
Fuck, I meant in addition to consuming them through meat
I'm tired.

>>39629185
pea protein is vegan and cheap
it tastes pretty bad at first but you get used to it

>>39637106

>it tastes pretty bad

THAT'S IT, I CAN'T GO VEGAN THEN, NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

>>39637090
It's not wrong to kill sentient things.
Fight me.
But be careful because I'm not afraid to end it. Permanently.

>>39637141

> it's not wrong to kill sentient things

Oh okay cool. I'll be on my way then. Off to curb stomp some babies and maybe impale a few retards and old people while I'm at it. All for my personal amusement. Nothing wrong it.

Highly relevant to all the meat defenders in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YOe_--O4jk

>>39637090
>It's not a scale. They're sentient end of story. How sentient are newborn children?
Oh, there is no scale? Okay, never drink alcohol because sentient bacteria are enslaved and have no choice but ferment and die in the process. Also douche your asshole because bacteria are trapped in there involuntarily. As a bonus you will be ready for your boyfriends dick.

>It can mean they have access to outside of the cage for 5 minutes with upwards of 20 chickens in a cubic metre. The certification is meaningless.
So? What were emission limits on factories or cars in 1990? 1970? 1940? Things can get better over time if demand is there.

>Processed meats and red meats are proven carcinogens.
So is 100000 other things your body comes in contact with during the day. Your body itself produces cancer cells just manages to kill almost all of them.

>It cannot exist in this society. The whole process has been industrialised because it's the only way to meet the demand. You supporting local farmers doesn't help.
>meet the demand
That is why I believe we should largely reduce our meat consumption. Same farm will be able to feed same amount of people while making the same profit with less animals. After you grow out of your college years you will realize going balls out militant on real world is just stupid.

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>"... the blackness of skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may come one day to be recognized, that the number of legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate.

>What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or, perhaps, the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, 'can they reason?' nor, 'can they talk?' but, 'can they suffer?' Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?

>-Jeremy Bentham, Introduction to the Principles of Morals and Legislation

>>39637189
But you won't, because you're a pussy who thinks that killing is wrong, and I won't because I am intelligent enough to know the difference between babies and animals.

>>39637292
>"To my apprehension, every act by which, without prospect of preponderant good, pain is knowingly and willingly produced in any being whatsoever, is an act of cruelty: and, like other bad habits, the more the correspondent habit is indulged in, the stronger it grows, and the more frequently productive of had fruits. I am unable to comprehend how it should be, that to him, to whom it is a matter of amusement to see a dog or a horse suffer, it should not be a matter of like amusement to see a man suffer; and seeing, as I do, how much more morality, as well as intelligence, an adult quadruped of those and many other species has in him, than any biped has for months after he has been brought into existence..."

>>39637292
Nobody knows who this guy even is. Give me one reason why o should care about his opinion on animals other than you agree with it.

>>39629185
if you are only going vegan to avoid the shit mass farm industry, only buy meat that you know is local/treated well. A lot of stuff is mis-labeled but it's not hard to find animals that are treated well and local to your area.

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>>39637203
Supp Vegan cunt.
Does this looks like meat is promoted as healthy?

>>39637341
A legal philosopher, scholar and social activist who founded the philosophical school of utilitarianism, and influenced the developement of both (economic) liberalism and welfarism (his students included both J.S. Mill and the socialist R. Owen), and is generally held in regard as one of the most influential Anglo-Saxon jurists of all time, and one of the most important western philosophers.

...Jesus Christ, dude, read a fucking book...

>>39632876
>wheat protein
Like gluten? w2c? It's top-tier macros but it seems so expensive

Not all nutritional yeast is fortified with B12. I usually take a tablet and get my fortified almond milk sips

What about calcium?

>>39637353
Not vegan, but I realize animal products are by no means healthy and I cut back on them as much as possible without disturbing my daily life.

We're currently at a somewhat of a turning point. Based on scientific evidence, the meat, egg and dairy industry are not allowed anymore to promote their products as healthy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtGf2FuzKo4
The only thing at the moment that still holds back most people from realizing that their "occasional" consumption is also bad, is ignorance or unwillingness to accept the truth once presented with it. Every /fit/ thread is a great demonstration of this.

>>39637392
>an anglo socialist
>influencial
Well he's no lenin is he? He's no locke or Hobbes either. Really this is the best moral argument you have? A fat, obscure, socialist... Wonderful

>>39637422
Where are you from? They are very much advertised as the healthy foods that they are here in america

>>39637419

Different guy but you should be able to find gluten flour at most grocery stores. Mix it with some kind of stock/broth and some soy sauce, knead and bake it. Tastes pretty good. You can even mix it with garbanzo bean flour to give it a better amino acid and nutrient profile.

>calcium

Plenty of that in the almond milk but you should also be able to get all the calcium you need from eating green veg like kale and collard greens, and white beans are a good source too. The USDA dri for calcium is something ridiculous like 1500mg/d because the dairy industry is big here, but the rest of the world considers 480mg a good target. I get around 600-700mg/d without almond milk, or 1000mg if I make a protein shake with almond milk.

>>39637452
Then you've been fooled by the egg-jew's trickery with words. They can neither be called, nutritious, healthy or even save because they are not by FDA standards.

>>39636926
>animal products like butter, steak and milk
Analogues exist.
> plant milk like coconut, almond, etc.
> butter analogues like Melt and Earth Balance
As for protein, it's how you flavour it. Gardein pulled pork tastes like actual pulled pork, the flavour of meat depends on how it's marinated/spiced. I found that out when I got a bunch of soya chunks and used them in stir-fries

>>39629184
/thread

>>39629156

Enjoy taking long walks with your wife's son.

>>39637472
Gluten flour? I've seen prepared gluten at Whole Foods and chink stores but it's like 2 bucks for 14g protein, 6g carbs, or there's the already-fried version that's like 20g protein and 22g of fat. I like the idea of making it myself with the chickpea flour but I don't know shit about baking. Where should I look for further reading?

>>39629156
Real talk now.
Don't be an idiot.
Eat some meat, 3 times a week and eat plenty of fish.
Eating vegan for most of the week is great, but eating only vegetables is going to make you a literall nu-male.

https://youtu.be/1BUL78hbkLA

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>>39637344

Half of the animals are slaughtered (not female)
The calves are taken from their mothers shortly after birth
Most of them are slaughtered for veal
The cows are repeatedly force impregnated
Cows have their calves taken away and suffer mentally
>Treated well

>>39637543
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duqcbJbElo4

>>39637543
> taking Rogain seriously
dude lmao

>>39637544
>suffer mentally
Ayyy lmao.

They are bred for consumption, as you are bred for paying taxes.

>>39636715
>No it hasn't,
It clearly did and if your going to hold on to this line of argumentation you know fuck all about science and biology and are an idiot.
>and the link you posted doesn't even address that.
Read it again. It clearly did with studies
>CHOLESTEROL = EGGS = ENJOY YOUR HEART ATTACK
There is no argument here. This and the whole 'animal protein is bad' is proven bullshit
>>39636850
>You made no argument
I clearly did
>you just said stuff
And you obviously didn't read
>What makes it a meme diet?
The fact that people bandwagon jump on it while needlessly getting rid of perfectly nutritious and healthy food, prove they don't know shit about nutrition or animal products and constantly claim they're bad for you when they aren't and make even more bullshit claims that their diet does things it doesn't do or that it makes you healthier than those who eat meat. It was also literally made by people who bothered to know fuck all about nutrition.
>Who are you to be the determiner of what's moral or not?
I've said eating animal products are neither moral or immoral and I'm anons ITT saying that's immoral or bad for you.
>>39637422
>but I realize animal products are by no means healthy and I cut back on them as much as possible without disturbing my daily life.
This animal products being bad for you is proven bullshit.
>The only thing at the moment that still holds back most people from realizing that their "occasional" consumption is also bad, is ignorance or unwillingness to accept the truth once presented with it. Every /fit/ thread is a great demonstration of this.
Not believing in bullshit and pseudoscience isn't holding people back
>>39633022

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>>39637528

Check the baking section, gluten flour is a pretty common item. Garbanzo flour is more of a specialty item but if you have a whole foods they should have that too. You can also make some pretty tasty pancakes with the garbanzo flour by blending it with water or almond milk, a banana, and some baking soda, and cooking it in a nonstick pan. For the gluten (seitan), cook it like this in the oven with aluminum foil

http://www.thankgodbourbonisvegan.com/2015/04/homemade-baked-seitan.html

I only use half those ingredients (soy sauce, spices like onion and garlic powders, paprika) and I use cooking stock instead of water and it comes out pretty good. I rarely eat it, but sometimes it's a nice alternative to beans/lentils.

>>39633022
>>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com

Really reliable source right there kek.

>>39637580
>Not believing in bullshit and pseudoscience isn't holding people back
Have you looked at any studies? Processed meat isn't a class 1 carcinogen for no reason (same category as cigarettes). Other meat class 2 by the way, just if you were wondering. Cholesterol and saturated fat isn't listed on the food labels for shits and giggles either. There are real health concerns and closing your eyes and ears will only lead to your demise. But hey, everyone's free to believe what they want and live your life how you desire.

>>39637580
Calling concepts that you don't understand 'bullshit' and 'retarded' isn't an argument you dummy.

>>39637636
>Other meat class 2
*red meat

>>39637580

>It clearly did
>Read it again. It clearly did with studies

All that article did was try to say saturated fat may raise testosterone by citing a shitty non-experimental study done on 12 people, which is like using this study to say that cigarettes are good for you.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24457405

I looked again and the best it does to "debunk" the fact that saturated fat/cholesterol are bad for you is citing a dairy industry funded meta-analysis that's disregarded by the rest of the medical community.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/2/458.full.pdf

>It is well established that saturated fat intake is associated with increased concentration of serum cholesterol (4), and that serum cholesterol concentrations are associated with CHD and CVD (5). Therefore, serum cholesterol concentrations lie on the causal chain between saturated fat intake and CHD and CVD and to adjust for serum cholesterol concentrations in a meta-analysis will obscure the effect of saturated fat intake on these health outcomes. Yet 7 of the 16 studies included in the meta-analysis of CHD events, and 4 of the 8 studies included in the meta-analysis of stroke events, were adjusted for serum cholesterol concentrations. These studies accounted for nearly half of all CHD and CVD events included in the meta-analyses (see Table 1). Adjustment for serum cholesterol concentrations will inevitably bias the estimates of effect of saturated fat intake toward the null hypothesis

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>>39637603
Thanks, anon, u da reel mvp

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>>39637551

> Vegan "Humans are herbivorous because I said so" Gains

>>39637677
>Chris "I've studied acupuncture and so I should be able to tell you what diet is most healthy despite what studies of actual scientists say" Kresser
VG isn't always right, but for the most part he presents good research and cites his sources. His reasoning for why humans are herbivores is not too great. All the points he presented just prove that we are not carnivores, but all the points he presented at least were cited and true.

>>39637636
>will only lead to your demise
Hey everyone this little edgelords gonna live forever!

>>39637621
>Really reliable source right there kek.
He's righter than the meme diet shills in this thread
>>39637640
>Calling concepts that you don't understand 'bullshit' and 'retarded' isn't an argument you dummy.
Being willfully ignorant of nutrition and science isn't one either and nice projection I understand them just fine, you however clearly don't
>>39637670
>All that article did was try to say saturated fat may raise testosterone by citing a shitty non-experimental study done on 12 people, which is like using this study to say that cigarettes are good for you.
>I looked again and the best it does to "debunk" the fact that saturated fat/cholesterol are bad for you is citing a dairy industry funded meta-analysis that's disregarded by the rest of the medical community.
You're just being willfully ignorant and disingenuous if your going to say that's all that was in the article or that that's the best it did to debunk it. And if the rest of the medical community discards it then why does science repeatedly back it up. The "rest of the medical community" that discards it doesn't exist because the medical community doesn't discard it.
>http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/92/2/458.full.pdf
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648
>A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.
>>39637755
>but for the most part he presents good research and cites his sources.
>All the points he presented just prove that we are not carnivores
>but all the points he presented at least...were cited and true.
>>39633022
His research and points were pseudoscience and complete fucking bullshit

>>39638258

>You're just being willfully ignorant and disingenuous if your going to say that's all that was in the article or that that's the best it did to debunk it

That's all there was in the “But what the heck? I’ve heard that saturated fat causes heart conditions?!" section

> And if the rest of the medical community discards it then why does science repeatedly back it up.

What do you mean?


>The "rest of the medical community" that discards it doesn't exist because the medical community doesn't discard it.

The mainstream rejects these studies because they're not well designed and don't address most of the evidence linking saturated fat to heart disease.

http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/HealthyLiving/HealthyEating/Nutrition/Frequently-Asked-Questions-About-Saturated-Fats_UCM_463756_Article.jsp#.WEn_iLIrKUk

>>A recent study said saturated fat and heart disease may not be so closely related. Is this study wrong?
>A report appeared in the Annals of Internal Medicine that raised questions about the saturated fat-heart disease link. However, that report has been heavily criticized by experts in the scientific community and the authors have issued several corrections and explanations.
>Technically, the report compared 20 previously published studies and concluded that evidence does not support guidelines that encourage low intake of saturated fatty acids. Critics of the report also say the authors misinterpreted the conclusions of several studies.
>The American Heart Association isn’t the only leading health organization to find a DEFINITIVE link between saturated fats and heart disease. Eleven authoritative bodies – including the World Health Organization; the Institute of Medicine; the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom; and the European Union – independently reviewed the scientific evidence and concluded yet again that saturated fat is associated with heart disease.

>>39638258
>>39638345

Even one of the authors of the study has said in interviews that his research doesn't mean that saturated fats aren't unhealthy

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/butter-is-not-back-limiting-saturated-fat-still-best-for-heart-health/

>Many people fall back on carbs, especially refined carbs like white bread, when they reduce saturated fat in their diets, said senior author Frank Hu, professor of nutrition and epidemiology. This may in part explain findings from a controversial 2014 paper that called into question recommendations for limiting saturated fat for heart health, and led to headlines promoting the return of butter.
>“Our research does not exonerate saturated fat,” said Hu. “In terms of heart disease risk, saturated fat and refined carbohydrates appear to be similarly unhealthful.”

You're letting confirmation bias and your personal food preferences cloud your judgement.

>>39637636
>Have you looked at any studies?
Studies tell your "health concerns" abut real meat to fuck off
>>39637668
It's healthy for you, isn't the same as a cigarette and does not cause cancer. If meat was really such a terribe poison and vegans claim for you wouldn't be able to eat and digest it or extract nutrients from it and might instead do something like what your body does with things that poisonous like throw it up
Chemically processed meats are the problem. Grass fed meats from well treated farm animals and organic meats are fine.
>http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.1.6291
>Cholesterol and saturated fat isn't listed on the food labels for shits and giggles either.
Been over this
>>39633022
>>39638258
>There are real health concerns and closing your eyes and ears will only lead to your demise.
Science says the opposite
>But hey, everyone's free to believe what they want and live your life how you desire.
You've technically got right that your free to believe your pseudoscience horseshit, but don't get pissy when your pseudoscience gets called out

>all these useless arguments by the meattards

Going vegan makes you an objectively better person. It causes the death of less plants and less animals.

>>39638426
>Going vegan makes you an objectively better person. It causes the death of less plants and less animals.
No it doesn't and there's nothing moral or immoral about it

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>>39633022
>meme diet
>Has literally existed for thousands of years
try harder faggot

>>39636729
>he thinks veganism consumes more resources than an omnivorous diets

>>39638497

Is the Earth 6000 years old?
What did hominids eat, pussy?

>>39637000
nice parody of meat-eaters, buddy.
He fell hook, line and sinker for it.
Either that or you are actually retarded, but whatever

>>39638548
No... the earth is not 6000 years old...
The Hominids ate meat. Whats your fucking point?

>>39638563

So, the whole Pleistocene was meat and foraging and then some smart hippie comes and preaches about vegan diets.
Not to begin with general decline in health, physical and mental capacity of general population after the agricultural revolution

>>39637344
If they are treated well and their life is good then why would you kill them shortly after they are born

would you enjoy starting life and being killed at age 8

>>39638583

>Not to begin with general decline in health, physical and mental capacity of general population after the agricultural revolution


When we started building space ships and splitting atoms?

>>39629180
Soy binds to estrogen respecters but does not activate them, this is why that women who eat soy are better protected against breast cancer, and those who already have it and consume soy have it come back less
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19221874
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874068/pdf/nihms169338.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21357380

So soy will not cause you to grow breast, why are you even listening to these fucking autistic basement dwellers who don't even lift?

But don't consume more than 3-5 servings of soy a day as it can cause a raise in your IGF-1 levels which will increase your cancer risk (all animal products raise this growth hormone).

>>39638598

Peasants plowing potatoes didn't build them.
Aristoi built everything, they had better diets, with more meat and more types of foods.
Leonardo da Vinci wasn't a paesant, Plutarch wasn't a peasant, Aristotle wasn't a peasant. Were Bohr, Heisenberg and de Broglie peasants? No.

Thats why I said general population, which pertains to people working in the fields, feeding the civilization, they had no time and no capacity for intellectual work.

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>>39638638

Leonardo da Vinci is one of the most famous vegans in history.

>>39638638

>Plutarch and Aristotle ate more meat than pre-agricultural humans

>>39638751
That is not how history works.
Da Vinci wasn't a vegan, a fucking picture qoute is not a source.
Only source that compares him to a Hindu eating regimen is written in a letter from one explorer to Lorenzo Medici. Not a very reliable source. Da Vinci never wrote that he abstained from eating meat.
Still, it is quite possible that he didn't eat meat later in life, but he was an ovolacto vegeterian (ate milk produce and eggs) and did certanly eat meat while in development years.
>>39638763
They didn't.
Point is they were not nibbling on celery all day.

>>39638763

And that's what made them smart! The same reason why people who eat the most mcdonalds burgers have the highest IQs!

>>39629182
Then you'll be a vegetarian, dingus

>>39638497
>meme diet
>Has literally existed for thousands of years
False claims about what veganism does and doesn't do and about meat does in your diet are what make it a meme. Not it's existence
>>39637580
>What makes it a meme diet?
>The fact that people bandwagon jump on it while needlessly getting rid of perfectly nutritious and healthy food, prove they don't know shit about nutrition or animal products and constantly claim they're bad for you when they aren't and make even more bullshit claims that their diet does things it doesn't do or that it makes you healthier than those who eat meat. It was also literally made by people who bothered to know fuck all about nutrition.

>gladiators love memes.jpg
>http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2012/04/apex-predator-diet-for-athletes-and.html
>"Contrast these diets of these lean, mean killing machines with that of the gladiators. Gladiators in the Roman era were generally captives obtained from battles with neighboring tribes, all of whom generally subsisted on meat. As such, they were generally described in accounts by ancient authors as huge framed, broad shouldered, muscular, and wild eyed,(Tacitus, Jordanes, Turnbull) and were chosen to be warriors for their stature and ferocity. Once placed into the arena, however, their diet was changed to a nearly vegetarian diet, and not because the gladiators needed the extra energy.
>(cont.)

>>39638497
>>39638875
>(cont.)
>"The vegetarian diet had nothing to do with poverty or animal rights. Gladiators, it seems, were fat. Consuming a lot of simple carbohydrates, such as barley, and legumes, like beans, was designed for survival in the arena. Packing in the carbs also packed on the pounds. 'Gladiators needed subcutaneous fat," Grossschmidt explains. "A fat cushion protects you from cut wounds and shields nerves and blood vessels in a fight.' Not only would a lean gladiator have been dead meat, he would have made for a bad show. Surface wounds "look more spectacular," says Grossschmidt. 'If I get wounded but just in the fatty layer, I can fight on," he adds. "It doesn't hurt much, and it looks great for the spectators.'"(Curry)"

>>39638891

>>"The vegetarian diet had nothing to do with poverty or animal rights. Gladiators, it seems, were fat. Consuming a lot of simple carbohydrates, such as barley, and legumes, like beans, was designed for survival in the arena. Packing in the carbs also packed on the pounds.

This wasn't actually based on anything. It's just an anthropologist making a blind guess based on his poor understanding of nutrition.

Barley and legumes are also not "simple carbohydrates," they're about as complex as it gets. I'd love to see someone get fat on a diet of boiled barley, fava beans, and vegetables.

>>39638751
>http://arthistory.about.com/od/leonardo/a/Was-Leonardo-A-Vegetarian.htm

>The Quote Most Often Used

>"Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men will look upon the murder of animals as they look upon the murder of man."
>This, or some variation of it, is frequently used as proof that Leonardo was a vegetarian. The problem is that Leonardo never said these words. An author named Dmitry Sergeyevich Merezhkovsky (Russian, 1865-1941) wrote them for a work of historical fiction titled The Romance of Leonardo da Vinci. In point of fact, Merezhkovsky didn't even write the words for Leonardo, he put them in the (fictitious) diary of (real) apprentice Giovanni Antonio Boltraffio (ca.1466-1516) as a quote from Leonardo.
>The only thing this quote proves is that Merezhkovsky had heard of vegetarianism. It is not a valid argument for Leonardo having been meat-free.

>>39638914

It's just a matter of calories in, calories out- while we are talking about wholesome foods with no added shit.
That's the major problem people don't see. Today carbs are "bad", but carbs today are food laced with sugar and additives. Most people eat and cook pre packaged rice, beans from a can, cereals which are toxic shit.
Calories in/out do not strictly apply with shit foods. ( inb4 physics do not apply)

>>39638914
>This wasn't actually based on anything. It's just an anthropologist making a blind guess based on his poor understanding of nutrition.
>Grossschmidt and collaborator Fabian Kanz subjected bits of the bone to isotopic analysis, a technique that measures trace chemical elements such as calcium, strontium, and zinc, to see if they could find out why. They turned up some surprising results. Compared to the average inhabitant of Ephesus, gladiators ate more plants and very little animal protein.
>
Yes, please tell more about how it was just a blind guess, how there wasn't any analysis involved, that you know more than the Archaeological Institute of America and have been published in that or a similar publication and can show research that the opposite of what was publised occured
>http://archive.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/gladiator.html

>>39638933

>Upon encountering vegetarians in India, Italian explorer Andrea Corsali wrote to his and da Vinci’s mutual patron Giuliano de’ Medici that they, “do not feed upon anything that contains blood, or do they permit among them any injury be done to any living thing, like our Leonardo da Vinci.”
>Indicating his own dietary inclinations, Da Vinci did write that he would not let his body be a, “tomb for other animals, an inn of the dead … a container of corruption.”
>Da Vinci asks those insistent on eating animals, “Does not nature produce enough simple [meaning: plant-based] food for thee to satisfy thyself?”

>>39639031

The analysis of their bones was real, the assumption that they must have been fat isn't based on any sort of analysis.

>>39639041

Did you, by any chance, finish high school?
Analyzing bone ( bone marrow) will give you an accurate fat precentage.

>>39638933
>>39639033
>Did Corsali mean that Leonardo didn't eat meat, didn't allow harm to living creatures, or both? We don't know conclusively, because the artist, the explorer, and the banker weren't companions. Giuliano de'Medici (1479-1516) was Leonardo's patron for three years, from 1513 to the former's early death. It is unclear how well he and Leonardo knew each other. Not only did Giuliano view the artist as an employee (unlike Leonardo's former patron, Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan), the two men were of different generations.

>As for Corsali, he appears to have known Leonardo through mutual Florentine connections. Though they were contemporaries, between the artist's time outside of Florence and the explorer's time outside of Italy, they did not have the opportunity to become close friends. Corsali may have been referencing Leonardo's habits through hearsay. Not that we will ever know ... no one can even say when or where Corsali died. And Giuliano made no comment on the letter, seeing that he himself was dead by the time it was delivered.

>If we use a deliberately low estimate of 60 biographies, then 8.33% of the authors spoke of Leonardo and vegetarianism. Take away the three writers who cited the Corsali letter, and we have a whopping 3.34% (two biographers) who speak for themselves in saying that Leonardo was a vegetarian.

>These are the facts. Use them as you see fit.
>Let's start with what Leonardo didn't say. At no point did he write, and no source has ever quoted him saying, "I do not eat meat."
>(cont.)

>>39639080

No it won't, and they didn't do that.

>>39639090
>>39639033
>(cont.)
>...However, it is impossible to claim that Leonardo da Vinci was a vegan.

>Setting aside the fact that the term wasn't even coined until 1944, Leonardo ate cheese, eggs and honey, and drank wine. More than that, all of the grains, fruits and vegetables he ingested were grown using animal inputs (read: manure) for soil fertility. It is a fact that synthetic fertilizers would not be invented until far into the future, and would not be widely used until the second half of the 20th-century.

>Additionally, we have to consider what he wore and what he used to create art. Leonardo did not have access to polyurethane footwear, for one thing. His brushes were animal products: sable or hog hairs attached to quills. He drew on vellum, which is the specially-tanned skin of calves, kids, and lambs. Sepia, a deep reddish brown pigment, comes from the ink sac of the cuttlefish -- and no, the cuttlefish's ink sac isn't "milked" in a catch-and-release exercise. Even the simple paint, tempera, is made with eggs.
>For all of these reasons, calling Leonardo a vegan -- or even a proto-vegan -- is untrue. If you are constructing a factual argument for veganism, you should choose a different famous person as your example.
>For all of these reasons, calling Leonardo a vegan -- or even a proto-vegan -- is untrue. If you are constructing a factual argument for veganism, you should choose a different famous person as your example.
>Leonardo may have eaten a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet, although this has been pieced together from circumstantial evidence by a minority of expert Leonardistas. We lack conclusive proof, and are unlikely to discover it after 500 years. If you wish to say he was a vegetarian, you are possibly to probably (although not definitively) correct, depending on your point of view. On the other hand, the speculation that Leonardo was a vegan is indisputably false. It is a deliberate deception for one to claim otherwise.

>>39639095

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21361937

>No it won't, and they didn't do that.
Unmovable argument
You are an American, right?

>>39639090

how is "I will not let my body become a tomb for other animals" not clear evidence of him not eating meat? the arthistory link doesn't even discuss that

>>39639121

So in fresh bone marrow from a recently deceased cow, you can determine whether the animal was immaciated or not, with a score of "1 or 2.". Now how are you going to tell me you can get an accurate body fat percentage measurement from 1,800 year old bones? And where does it say it even attempted to do that? They only looked at mineral levels.

>>39639127
>how is "I will not let my body become a tomb for other animals" not clear evidence of him not eating meat? the arthistory link doesn't even discuss that
And was said before in the article and here>>39638820 one quote does not definitive proof make. >>39639116 read the rest and take it up with historians and the writer of the article if you disagree that is ample proof

>>39639158

that's a poetic way of essentially saying "i don't eat meat." one quote is enough.

>>39639149
>They only looked at mineral levels.
Which are in the bone marrow.
By measuring minerals you determine the fat.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3035852/
> Fresh
U wot m8

C'mon lads, I know universities are expensive in Murica, but goddammit, this is silly.

>>39639170
>that's a poetic way of essentially saying "i don't eat meat."
Did you not read how the article says that cannot be conclusively be determined and is a poor argument
>one quote is enough.
It absolutely is not

>>39639190

>Grossschmidt and collaborator Fabian Kanz subjected bits of the bone to isotopic analysis, a technique that measures trace chemical elements such as calcium, strontium, and zinc

That's all it says about their analysis. They analyzed bits of the bone, not bone marrow, and recorded trace mineral content.

>>39639211

>"I don't eat meat" - leonardo da vinci
>hmmmmm, that could mean anything....

>>39639229

Bone marrow> Osteoclasts> minerals
That's where the trace minerals are found in bones.

>>39639237
>Let's start with what Leonardo didn't say. At no point did he write, and no source has ever quoted him saying, "I do not eat meat."
For all of these reasons, calling Leonardo a vegan -- or even a proto-vegan -- is untrue. If you are constructing a factual argument for veganism, you should choose a different famous person as your example.

>In conclusion

>Leonardo may have eaten a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet, although this has been pieced together from circumstantial evidence by a minority of expert Leonardistas. We lack conclusive proof, and are unlikely to discover it after 500 years. If you wish to say he was a vegetarian, you are possibly to probably (although not definitively) correct, depending on your point of view. On the other hand, the speculation that Leonardo was a vegan is indisputably false. It is a deliberate deception for one to claim otherwise.

>>39629156
because dicks taste awful.

>>39639250

You can use any piece of bone for isotopic analysis, and they didn't say anything about bone marrow, which I still don't believe would give any kind of accurate reading about body fat percentages, and they didn't give any details about that either. There's also no accounts of fat gladiators in historical texts. It's purely a guess based on the knowledge that they ate carbohydrates.

>>39639298

It's not an isotopic analysis mon negro. Isotopic analysis is carbon dating, it determines the age.
Mineral tracing is done with a chloride compound.

>>39639260

>At no point did he write, and no source has ever quoted him saying, "I do not eat meat."
>"I will not let my body become a tomb for other animals"

>>39639158

>one quote does not definitive proof make
>says this for two separate quotes

>>39639361

Did the article report it incorrectly then?

>Grossschmidt and collaborator Fabian Kanz subjected bits of the bone to isotopic analysis, a technique that measures trace chemical elements such as calcium, strontium, and zinc

>>39639373

Maybe mixed up with carbon dating.
You cannot extract with isotopes alone.
Electronegative isotope contained in acid could extract something, but C-14 is for dating things.

>>39639366
>At no point did he write, and no source has ever quoted him saying, "I do not eat meat."
>"I will not let my body become a tomb for other animals"
Again, Take it up with the writers of the article and historians if you disagree that it in fact is ample proof. The article is right however in saying that it cannot only not be conclusively determined, but it is a poor argument; you are better served using another person and to claim certainty is is nothing but disingenuous.
>one quote does not definitive proof make
>says this for two separate quotes
And it is absolutely true for both, especially in the context of the article. And if you disagree, again; take it up with the article that rightly says taking singular quotes and saying he was does make any kind of good argument.

Vegan is kinda overboard to me cause milk and eggs and all that good shit is great, but what about becoming pescetarian? Fish are great for you, are complete proteins plus is not expensive. I don't give a fuck about animal welfare but if you do, fish don't feel any pain, or at least the same type us mammals do.

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Op did an excellent job trolling today. His bait, while unoriginal, was indisputably fresh enough capture a school of /fit/ fish. Rarely have I seen this much ass mad shit posting anywhere on 4chan, Christ we got dudes arguing about davinci's diet (who cares, he's dead) just well done and bravo op.

>>39636876
bro bro bro bro
Going vegan cured my acne a whole lot too man

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>>39629315
Also from the UK Green Party.

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>tfw cant tell anymore if ppl are seriously stupid enough to pick up the vegan meme or just baiting

>>39641900
Holy fuck, they literally want to pardon women from crimes and punish them less than men for doing the same thing. You eurocucks never cease to amaze me.