What's your excuse?

>>38663091
my excuse is that your picture is full of lies

>>38663091
>no leucine in broccoli
welcome to the land of nogainz
also, meat is delicious, so fuck yourself

>>38663091
the excuse it that you would have to eat a very very high volume of broccoli to get 100 calories compared to a bite of beef.

>>38663091
beef is far more calorie dense

>>38663091
1. Animal fats taste better
2. Meat increase test
3. Meat Protiens are more readily usable
4. Plats have feelings too
5. Plants understand they are being eaten
6. Theres violence in slaughtering a bunch of thriving plants for food

So your logic of not eating animals is??? What??? Its not Morally sound? But killing other living things for food is okay? Please explain.

>>38663130
either bait or truly retarded

>>38663148
either bait or truly retarded

>>38663148
Either you are autistic or you have nothing to contradict what was said. So you go to defense is, "its bait".

>>38663154
Plants have no nervous system, baka. You have no legitimate. I'm still hoping what you said is bait, because if not, you are actually retarded.

>>38663091
because I'd have to eat 4 kilograms of broccoli to get my daily protein

>>38663130
The only excuse you have is the first one, the rest are bullshit.

>>38663170
You're serious? That you dont understand that a nervous system does exist for plants. When plants are cut, bitten, damaged or whatever, it sends a bunch of chemicals as a response to either produce a sticky substance or to produce enzymes to start repairs. Its not actual nerves sending electric signals. Its just chemicals being passed by the plant. But none the less, the plant DOES respond to you cutting it, it DOES respond to you eating it. This is why lots of plants have natural defenses. Have you ever read a bio book thats outside of your middle school library?

>>38663098
>>38663130
Listen here dumbasses, amount per 100 calories, obviously the calories of the beef will be greater on one gram than the brocoly, so aprox the amount of calories in 10 gr of beef could be 100 while in the brocoly being 15 calories per 10 gr. That's the fallacy, they're using as reference calories instead gr, if we're talking about gr to get that amount of protein you've need to eat at least five times more broccoly than beef.

I'm not american, so shut up grammatical nazis

>>38663198
If you think killing a plant is any less offensive than killing an animal. Then you sir are a peice of poo in a loo.

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>>38663184
Thought is was weird it was per 100 calories.
Looked up the nutritional value per 100 g for both, and i came to the same conclusion.

>>38663211
Listen you shitstain, the image clearly says. DO YOU REALLY NEED MEAT TO GET PROTEIN?

Plants have all the protein you need without the violence.

What you just said had nothing to do with the point of the post. So back up and calm your tits. Maybe read everything and not add questions that are not there.

>>38663249
DO YOU REALLY NEED TO BE SO UPSET TO MAKE YOUR POINT?
You sound like a retard, fuck off

>>38663249
>Plants have all the protein you need
everything has all the protein you need if you eat enough of it. there's a reason the pic is "per 100kcal". because plants have nearly no calories at all so that's the only way to make any of them seem high in protein density.

>>38663091
>there are 34 calories in 100 gram of broccoli
>hence to get 11.1 grams of protein you'd need to eat like 300 grams of broccoli

https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/broccoli?portionid=59022&portionamount=100.000

who the fuck even wants to eat that much broccoli

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>>38663091
Cuz, theres this many types of cuts. Plants dont have different cuts and textures

>>38663249
vegetarian cuck spotted

>>38663249
Except he's right. Eating '100 calories' of broccoli is going to require you to eat a fucking bucket of the stuff.

Meanwhile, 100 calories of beef is maybe half of a small steak.

The two simply aren't equivalent.

>>38663277
I eat a 500g of steamed vegetables a day every day of which 100-200g is broccoli but it's more like a nice low calorie side dish to fill my stomach on a cut, I don't actually eat it for the macros.

>>38663271
Says that moron that doesn't contribute to the actual discussion other than ignorant remarks that have little to no information. Bravo.

>>38663274
Yes, i understand this. But thats not what the question was about. Now was it?

>>38663311
U mad? Lol

>>38663311
The question? "What's your excuse?" Yeah that is pretty relevant. I don't want to eat 4 kilos of broccoli a day and broccoli is even a relatively high protein vegetable compared to others.

>>38663091

100 calories of lean steak is a forkful. 100 calories of broccoli is a small deciduous forest.

>>38663321
The question was, do you really need meat to get protein?

Answer is, obviously NO.

Whats your excuse, is a follow up question. My answer (excuse) being plants are no more morally sound to kill for food than animals. So, just eat both.

Do you get it now?

>>38663363
>argue about the statement I've made but you should follow my rules and you must agree with me

RETARD

>>38663388
Oh my, its prett6 sad when you dont understand simple context of things.

Do you really need meat to get protein?
Plants have all the protein you need with none of the violence. Whats your excuse?
.
.
What don't you understand about this?

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>>38663130
>4. Plats have feelings too
>5. Plants understand they are being eaten
>6. Theres violence in slaughtering a bunch of thriving plants for food

>>38663436
How fucking dare you assume plants don't feel pain like animals do.

A plant feels just as much pain as aim also do when they get harvested.

ALL LIFE MATTERS

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>100g of broccoli, 3.7g protein
>100g of fillet steak, 21g protein

>>38663454
Please refer to >>38663207

It's not new knowledge, that plants can and do "feel" pain and respond accordingly to external stimulus. Its all chemically passed through the plant. But its been proven they infact to respond to cutting, damage, or stress in very specific ways.

>>38663478
This, where the fuck did they pull these numbers from kek

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>>38663249
Nigger like I give a fuck.

>>38663436
So how long have you used the personal incredulity fallacy dude?
>u don't understand!! X5
>that's not the question X5

It must be painful to be so retard

>>38663475
Exactly. This is why you should just eat both. Morally it makes no sense not too.

>>38663478
This lol

>>38663436
>its pret66
There's no need to be upsed anon

>>38663436
Oh boy, letme put this straight
YOU'RE AN IDIOT AND NOBODY CARES

Do you understand it moron?

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>>38663091
Lol, who te fuck eat that shit for proteons?
Whey master race here

>>38663493
Yeah yeah yeah, still haven't seen you put any logic into your replies. Still waiting to see your oh so awesome response that actually makes sense with the question that was presented.
The fact you're so autistic you see the picture of broccoli you believe the entire thing is about broccoli vs beef. When its PLANTS vs MEAT. Its also not based off the gram to gram ratio. Its based off the calories to gram ratio. Which aslo changes alot. So stop being selectively ignorant and READ more.

You need a CDL to transport 100 calories of broccoli.

>>38663478
True. The per 100 calories is very misleading. You would have to eat like 2 plates of broccoli

>>38663524
That wasn't even my point, you still don't get it, listen carefully,
YOURE AND RETARD AND NOBODY CARES YOU VEGETARIAN KEK

Do you understand?

>>38663513
Let me put this into words you may actually understand.

You're an idiot IF You believe; that there is anything different between killing plants or animals, that that image was soley comparing broccoli to steak, that you think you calling anyone a moron means diddly when you can't even respond to a simple question presented by a infographic.

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4SCOOPS CMON SON

>>38663091
You have to eat more than 1 whole bush of broccoli to get 100 calories

>>38663130
Plants may feel pain but they are not sentient, that's the keyword, "sentient". The pain is just a reaction, not an emotion.

>>38663540
Seems like you care quite alot. You must be so autistic that you can't even come up with anything more intelligent sounding than your belligerent spouts of idiotic insults.

>>38663547
Stop feeding the troll already

>>38663576
You think if i just stab your hand, you think you'd feel the emotion of pain? Or would you just "react" to the actual pain you feel?

Yes, yes, silverback gorillas are also vegetarians, but they eat something like 15 kilos of greens daily.

>>38663599
You just make me remember Harambe :'(

>>38663599
They are not vegetarian. They eat primarily plant matter yes. But they eat lots of bugs and small animals up to sizes of small monkeys as well. Its not seen all too often but it does happen. Even chimpanzee gather in groups of like 4 or 5 and hunt smaller monkey's to eat.

>>38663091
I eat both, whey too

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>>38663091
Fixed that for you.
And by 'fixed' I mean I RUINED your shitty, used-up, worn-out, tired-ass troll-meme.

OP, as usual, is a fag.

>>38663091

Why not eat both in the same meal?!

>>38663629
Thanks

>>38663597
They don't have a central nervous system brah. And let's say that plants in fact do have deep emotional feelings and 'cry out' in pain like an animal does when its beaten, more agricultural produce is required to feed livestock, so more plants are 'hurt' to feed livestock if we don't abstain from meat.

>>38663629
Here we go, another retard takes the picture of broccoli and blows it out of proportion. The infographic is about plant proteins not only broccoli. Also it only asks if you need meat to get protein. Just cuz you see a picture of a thing doesn't meam thats whats being discussed. Its being used as a very small example of a bigger picture.

>>38663637
>being an omnivore

Kill yourself

>>38663629
And even THAT isn't the end of the story.

That's only 7.1g of shitty crap vegetable protein for almost NINE OUNCES of broccoli. If you ate enough broccoli to get ALL your protein, not only would you be deficient in aminos you NEED, but you'd be eating so many times more fiber than you need, your digestive system wouldn't be able to handle it; you'd be sick as a dog with diarrhea like you've never seen as your gut was totally overloaded. You'd never want to see broccoli ever again after that.

With the traditional Western diet, the average American consumes about double the protein her or his body needs. The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein for the average adult is 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. To find out your average individual need, simply perform the following calculation: Body weight (in pounds) x 0.36 = recommended protein intake (in grams) http://www.nap.edu/read/10490

However, even this value has a large margin of safety, and the body’s true need may be lower for most people. Protein needs are increased for women who are pregnant or breastfeeding. In addition, needs are also higher for very active persons. As these groups require additional calories, increased protein needs can easily be met through larger intake of food consumed daily. An extra serving of legumes, tofu, meat substitutes, or other high protein sources can help meet needs that go beyond the current RDA.

>>38663652
Citations for my post: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/660S/T3.expansion.html

You need 30kg of forage just to get back 1kg of meat from a cow.

C'mon guys, just eat them both

>>38663653
Could you possibly write anything that makes less sense or sounds more retaded? Not a totally rhetorical question, you can't be that fucktardedly stupid and still be able to use a computer and form complete (if nonsense) sentences, so you must be acting retarded on purpose; please try to write something even more retarded and senseless, I want to see how far you can go with this.

>>38663652
You didn't answer my question.

Also, you don't need a nervous system to "feel" pain. Pain is a term we use for over stimulated nerves. Plants dont have nerves, they have just plant cells and chemicals that are produced to tell the otger cells what to do depending on the stimulus of the plant cell thats affected. The response is a bit slower, but none the less, just as effective and responsive.

>>38663689
0 studies have found that plants are sentient beings that can subjectively experience reality, pain, and suffering. Plants don't have a brain, they don't have a nervous system, and they don't have nerve receptors that are required to feel pain. And it doesn't even make sense from an evolutionary perspective for plants to feel pain since they can't move. We feel pain because it makes it easy for us to avoid things that are harmful. But plants on the other hand can only stand still and they only need to have chemical reactions to external stimuli. That doesn't mean they're conscious and that doesn't mean they experience pain.

>>38663676
Are you aware that if humans are deficient in the amino acids that vegetable protein is deficient in for too long, they start to develop a cognitive deficit? Feeding developing children a vegetarian diet will cause their brains, among other things, to not develop properly. These are medical FACTS that you can look up. Soy is not the answer, either; many are allergic, and it's just not overall good for humans. We are omnivores; WE NEED MEAT IN OUR DIETS. You can deny it all you want but it does not change well-established and accepted medical and scientific facts. Your 'lifestyle choices' are not rational, either, and the cognitive deficit that you develop as a consequence of your 'lifestyle choice' just deepens your belief in your irrational choice of it.

>>38663677
>C'mon guys, just eat them both
WE ARE OMNIVORES; of COURSE we eat both. But anyone trying to tell you that you can be healthy and thrive on a vegetable-only diet is selling you a bill of goods. WE ARE OMNIVORES and there are severe health consequences in denying that.

>>38663689
And I am entertaining the notion that plants experience pain, fact is the meat industry requires lots of plants to feed the animals, by cutting out meat from our diet, less plants have to suffer in comparison to feeding plants to livestock.


"U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat, Cornell ecologist advises animal scientists"
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat

>>38663653
>>38663653
Listen, fucktard: WE NEED MEAT FOR COMPLETE, HIGH-QUALITY PROTEIN, aside from the other substances in meat that are highly beneficial, ESPECIALLY to someone who is strength training or bodybuilding. You can try to wish it away ALL YOU WANT, but it won't change the FACT that vegetable protein is INFERIOR and you will develop health problems due to amino acid deficiencies over time due to it, it is a FACT.

>>38663678
Seriously, are you purposely being ignorant? Cuz the information you posted with the image really had nothing to do with the image. By posting the "amended" version you just made the graphic harder to grasp. Just cuz you see a piece of broccoli doesn't mean thats what the entire image is about. Maybe read the question. The broccoli part is just a small example you moron. Its not supposed to be taken as a full replacement of meat. Its supposed to make you look for other sources than only meat for protein.

>>38663091
taste

>>38663730
The numbers presented have NOTHING TO DO WITH REALITY and I CORRECTED THEM.

You must be the faggot OP, trying so desperately to defend your poor attempt at trolling using an old, outdated, deprecated troll image. Please kill yourself, you're an idiot.

>>38663727
Yes, but to compensate for the loss of meat and to replace it with plant counterparts would probably make it equal either way. So just eat both. Its how nature wants it.

>>38663710
I think you wanted to reply to another post but whatever.

>WE NEED MEAT IN OUR DIETS

No, a plant based diet is nutritionally sufficient senpai, its fine if you wanna eat meat but a well planned vegan diet will not have any deficiencies.

''It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.''
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

>>38663710
"Are you aware that if humans are deficient in the amino acids that vegetable protein is deficient in for too long, they start to develop a cognitive deficit? Feeding developing children a vegetarian diet will cause their brains, among other things, to not develop properly. These are medical FACTS that you can look up."

confirmation bias. back it up yourself, you can't actually seem to do that even. the american dietetic association says a vegan diet is suitable throughout all stages of life including childhood: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864

"WE ARE OMNIVORES and there are severe health consequences in denying that."
funny because ive been vegan quite a while with no "health consequences" i've felt better actually. not to mention there are studies such as the adventist health proving that a vegan diet is ideal for human health. The adventist health study is comprised 22,434 men and 38,469 women from Seventh-Day Adventist church members across North America. The people of this church, despite their diet, are generally health conscious, that's why it's such a great study. And with the study we can see the 5-unit BMI difference between vegans and nonvegetarians indicates a substantial potential of vegetarianism/veganism to protect against obesity. In other words, the only group that is right in the middle of a healthy weight range is the vegan group following with the lacto-ovo-vegetarians, pesco-vegetarians, semi-vegetarians, and nonvegetarians. Increased conformity to vegetarian/vegan diets protected against risk of type 2 diabetes after lifestyle characteristics and BMI were taken into account. Pesco- and semi-vegetarian diets afforded intermediate protection
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

>>38663750
>its how nature wants it
Appeal to nature fallacy mate

And not really, it won't make it equal. A plant based diet would be more beneficial for the environment and as I have pointed out by citing the article, waste less plant produce which could otherwise be used to feed more poor people.


Carbon footprint of meat industry:
Livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32,564 million tons of CO2e per year, or 51 percent of annual worldwide GHG emissions.
http://www.worldwatch.org/files/pdf/Livestock%20and%20Climate%20Change.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/uAREt8B.png

>>38663750
appeal to nature

>>38663700
Bullshit, plants reapond to external stimulus just as any living thing does. Plants have the ability to feel pain for survival, this is why they produce super sticky fluids to prevent you from further damaging them. Or they produce stuff like capsaicin to ward you off. Or what about when they are damaged by the wind? they start the chemical reaction to begin repairing the damaged part or to produce "scar" tissue over the damage to prevent infection or disease. You don't "need" a nervous system to detect stimulus.

>>38663767
Really? Beneficial for environment you say?

So what do you think would be done with the lack of land to produce all these new needed plants? Also in the amounts we would need to sustain the 9+ billion people on the planet would be outrageously unobtainable.

>>38663784
"Plants have the ability to feel pain for survival, this is why they produce super sticky fluids to prevent you from further damaging them. Or what about when they are damaged by the wind? they start the chemical reaction to begin repairing the damaged part or to produce "scar" tissue over the damage to prevent infection or disease."

"plants on the other hand can only stand still and they only need to have chemical reactions to external stimuli. That doesn't mean they're conscious and that doesn't mean they experience pain."

Either mentally disabled or just ignorant.

>>38663796
What do you think animals are fed? They're fed with the majority of the world's crops. And if all farms went to grazing pastures (which is practically impossible to begin with)? A significant amount of deforestation would be required to create new pastures

>>38663796
>what do you think would be done with the lack of land to produce all these new needed plants?

More land would be needed to contain livestock senpai, did you not see any citations I just posted about the environmental impacts of the meat industry?

https://i.imgur.com/uAREt8B.png , just look at the co2 emissions for meat on that graph as opposed to plants.

>>38663806
Big deal, what does standing still have to do with anything? That literally has no relevance to what you're trying to prove. Pain is just a stimulus that causes discomfort. Also, plants even have been know to communicate with one another through airborne chemicals. So to act like they cant feel just because they can't directly tell you they are in pain doesnt mean they dont experience it in some form.

>>38663843
"It doesn't even make sense from an evolutionary perspective for plants to feel pain since they can't move. We feel pain because it makes it easy for us to avoid things that are harmful. But plants on the other hand can only stand still and they only need to have chemical reactions to external stimuli. That doesn't mean they're conscious and that doesn't mean they experience pain."

Sad how much I have to repeat myself. The meat is getting to your brain, bud.

And again 0 studies have found that plants are sentient beings that can subjectively experience reality, pain, and suffering.

You are literally just in complete denial of science and ran out of fallacious arguments to eat meat. Infact this argument is incredibly fallacious.

>>38663826
>>38663832
This is why you need both. If we industrialized and made it indoor farming we could be able to save land and be able to grow the crops and livestock with very little impact on the environment. The only flaw is when money is involved with those things you get neglected animals and poor living environments also you have failures with quality. Damn you capitalism.

>per calorie
lol meme statistic

>>38663866
"If all farms went to grazing pastures (which is practically impossible to begin with)? A significant amount of deforestation would be required to create new pastures"

I don't think there is any sustainable way of breeding, raising, and murdering animals for consumption.

>>38663864
There is No need to be "conscious" (subjective) to feel pain.

All you need is a THING that responds to external stimulus and that THING responds with discomfort and sends signals/chemicals accordingly to the stimulus.

Since when are animals the only things that can "feel"? Also to say animals feel emotional pain is retarded. You cannot put a human only emotion and perception onto a non human thing.

>>38663091
You're essentially saving more lives by leaving plants alone in the wild allowing ecosystems to grow and what not than just killing one cow and feeding a village.

>>38663902
So how can you feel pain if you're insentient and unconscious? Are you saying people in comas can feel pain? If you're going to be in absolute denial of science there's no point in talking to you. They call a coma a vegetative state for a reason by the way.

"All you need is a THING that responds to external stimulus and that THING responds with discomfort and sends signals/chemicals accordingly to the stimulus."

And for the last time plants on the other hand can only stand still and they only need to have chemical reactions to external stimuli. That doesn't mean they're conscious and that doesn't mean they experience pain.

I'll give you an example. Your individual organs have chemical reactions, that doesn't mean they feel pain or have any experience of life like you do as a whole. A brain, a central nervous system, nerve receptors are absolutely necessary for you to be sentient and feel pain and whatnot. Plants lack those things

>>38663899
Really? Can't just make an indoor farm/ranch? Also you can build up instead of out so no need for deforestation. Since its indoors you can actually help slow the bs co2 emissions issue. The biggest part is going to be for the crops. Since they take up time and capitol. really livestock only need minimal space except for a free roaming area, which wouldn't be any larger or smaller than any normal pasture, just indoors. Industrial farms have worked well in the past, but the issue that has always made them fail is the fact money is involved.

>>38663965
If it's indoor, obviously it won't be grazing. So you'd have to feed the animals. How could that possibly be sustainable? You're basically filtering your nutrients through somebody else's body.

>shoot a guy in the head four times
>cut his arm
>blood flows
>hemostasis kicks in
>proved corpses feel pain
>get nobel prize

>>38663936
Just because our brain (the thing that makes decisions) is shut off and doesn't respond to the signals presented by our nerves, doesn't mean we dont feel the pain. Its means we are experiencing the pain, Or at least the nerves that are being stimulated are experiencing pain or and extreme discomfort which is still a part of you. Just because our subconscious or conscious brain are don't respond to move our bodies from a stimulus doesn't mean the nerves are not experiencing the discomfort still.

>>38664008
But, you can have indoor pastures. An Actual field of grass and whatnot, Just indoors. Which means year round growth and no weather damage done to the livestock or crops. They can definitely graze. Shit you could even have free roaming livestock.

>>38664015
Omg nerves can't feel discomfort.
The word pain only makes sense when a brain interprets some signals from the nerves.

>>38663091
That graphic is full of shit. Not only is it ridiculous to look at grams of protein per calories as getting your daily minimum for proteins from broccoli would require you to eat like 2 kg of broccoli, but it's also factually wrong. It's more like 10 vs 8 g/kcal.

>>38664015
"doesn't mean we dont feel the pain"
Why not?

" Its means we are experiencing the pain, Or at least the nerves that are being stimulated are experiencing pain or and extreme discomfort which is still a part of you."

Aren't nerves basically useless if there is no brain to interpret sensations as an actual sense?

Maybe if you were vegan you would have the mental capacity to comprehend logic and science.

I've switched over to a vegetarian/veganish lifestyle.

My primary reason is health. Lower chance of cardiac disease. I am a physique competitor and hope to mitigate the stress and damage of gear through tight diet control.

Has been a year and I've transitioned quite well.

I am vegan however I still use daily:
- Whey protein isolate
- Fish oil

I'm ok with doing so as health is a primary concern for me.

>>38664035
There would not be enough room or grass to grow and feed the animals unless you are going to somehow manage to build a roof over several acres of land, only host like 1 or 2 cows which is also still horrible since it uses a lot of material/resources and requires deforestation for the actual land to build on/use.

>>38664040
Pain, is a word to describe an experience we have. Its just over stimulation of a cell or nerve.

Regardless of the cell or nerve being in connection with a brain and nervous means little to nothing. The only difference is speed of the response. We respond with electric pulses from our nerves, which is much faster at getting the response needed for survival. But since plants don't need speed, they rely solely on chemical response. So when a cell perceives damage it sends out chemicals which the next cell responds and on and on utill the entire plant is now responding to the stimulus to either prevent further damage or to stary repairs, or even to shut down the pathways for nutrients. It just responds how it needs to survive.

>>38664059
You take fish oil for what purpose? Omega 3? There are plenty vegan protein powders. Hemp, rice, pea, soy, and much more.

>>38664062
Uhh, maybe look up industrial farms. They already have some up and running. They are very great for the environment. Its just if the company starts cuttimg corners to save money thats when shit really goes to hell.

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>>38664049
Not him but lol you seem so triggered vegan cuck. I enjoy hunting and killing my own game and there's nothing you can do about it

>using "quotations" to quote someone on 4chan

Isnt summer over yet fuck, you need to go back

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>>38664059
Curious: Why not switch over to vegan blend protein like Sunwarrior?

>>38664083
Industrial farms feed the animals plant foods. Soy, corn, grains, etc. NOT good for the environment at all.

>>38663091
one has carbs while the other doesnt, also animal fat to raise dat dere testosterone levels

>>38664049
Why not? The pain is felt by our nerves, weather or not your are aware of it doesn't matter. If a nerve or cell of your body responds to stimulus, you inturn felt the stimulus. Regardless if your brain registered it or not.

>>38663091
1.picture is full of lies and misleading information
you'd have to eat a fucking bucket of broccoli to get the same amount of protein that is in one delicious stake
2. Meat may be murder but veganism is genocide. Not just by few animals going extinct solely because we stopped farming them for meat, but also for taking up way more farm ground to grow all the greens now necessary
3. kill yourself green man

>>38663454

that's actually scientifically true anon, there is evidence that plants actually know when a fellow nearby plant is being damaged, look it up m80

>>38664098
But, what if you're growing the feed and crops in the same exact place? You do realize you can build up right? Just have several stories up of crops and plants for animal feed. Then have a huge lower section for livestock. Simple. All indoors, and takes little to no extra land.

>>38663091
My excuse is i don't feel like eating a head and a half of broccoli for 11g of protein when I can get 23g in a single steak.

>>38664126
A brain is absolutely required to interpret a sense. You're now just talking out of your ass. You have no idea what you're talking about, just talking nonsense.

Here's an article for you:
http://www.brainfacts.org/sensing-thinking-behaving/senses-and-perception/articles/2013/the-senses-a-primer-part-i/

>>38663299
>>38663249
>Except he's right. Eating '100 calories' of broccoli is going to require you to eat a fucking bucket of the stuff.

I fucking lost it at the bucket part lmao

>>38664159
Oh wow, an article from 2013. What an impressive find.

its been widely known that plants can feel pain and respond from pain, and actually communicate with other plants when stressed. Its not that difficult to understand what pain is at its most basic level.

>>38664154
And how do you porpose on sustainably getting that much material/resources to build that? Let's not forget that you would need water for the grass or crops grown an incredibly huge amount of space, plus it may not even be possible at all due to many more factors like sunlight, pollination, and that sounds like a horrible concentration camp for the animals. I think you're playing too much minecraft haha

>>38663629
B T F O
T
F
O

Saving this for further use

>>38663363
I want the best amino acid profile so yes, I need beef you fucking cuck, go do squats on a cucumber field you authoritarian piece of fascistic shit.

>>38663599

Plant eating animals have this organ called cecum, where all plant matter is fermented, the bacteria that performs this process live and die there, providing most of the protein they require. Look up gut morphology difference between humans and plant eating animals.

>>38664177
It's literally just about how sensations work and expressing how a brain is required to feel pain. You NEED A BRAIN TO INTERPRET SENSATION.

How many fucking times do I have to tell you? Plants only have chemical reactions to external stimuli. That doesn't mean they're conscious and that doesn't mean they experience pain. You would be completely insentient without a brain. Plants don't have a brain, they don't have a nervous system, and they don't have nerve receptors that are required to feel pain.

You're at an entirely new level of stupid.

http://beefmagazine.com/blog/are-vegetable-proteins-equal-protein-beef

tl;dr: 100 calories of beef (about 3.5oz)= 25g protein. 100 calories of broccoli (over 3 cups) = 11 g protein. 3.5 oz beef protein = over 7 cups of broccoli. I need over 150g of protein a day, I'm not eating 50 fucking cups of broccoli a day.

/thread

>>38664188
Are you high? Water is much easier indoors since less evaporation, you can collect rain from the roof. you have climate control, LEDs are cheap and amazing at growing plants lights, can find alternatives to grass or different types of grass that grow fast that don't require insane amounts of water. So i don't see much of an issue unless the company is trying to save money and cuts corners which would result in neglect to the animals amd plants. But like i said ,If, Money weren't involved it'd be easily possible.

>>38664207
Beefmagazine. Never heard of that one. Is this where you do all your research?

>>38664094
I want optimum absorption. Whey is rated better than all the meats. Also expense. I'm still studying full time and cost is something I have to factor in.
>>38664075
I was under the impression fish oil is what the studies support for the health benefits. Unless it makes no difference?

>>38664203
A Sensation is another thing we experience. Its a synonym for feeling or stimulus. You do not need a brain to respond to a stimulus.

>>38664212
How come nobody has come up with this then? Probably because it can't be done. You and I are not experts on this so we're probably missing out on hundreds of factors that would make this either impossible to achieve or just plain stupid. I think you just may be playing too much minecraft

>>38663091
let's see the macros for 100g of each

>>38664240
No, it has been done. It's being done right now. Just alot of the companies that have started in the past get shut down cuz they tend to neglect the animals. Or they don't have good quality checks for produce. Its all money. Thats the only factor preventing it from happening.

>>38664227
There are often many pollutants in fish oils there are far better alternatives
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/is-fish-oil-just-snake-oil/
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/fish-oil-in-troubled-waters/

>>38664256
Where is it being done? I tried looking it up and found nothing of the sort. Show me.

>>38664275
>There are often many pollutants in fish oils there are far better alternatives

So any vegan omega supplement? I'm almost out of fish oil atm will make the switch over thanks! :-)

>>38664229
A stimulant is a thing or event that evokes a specific functional reaction in an organ or tissue. This does not at all mean they can feel pain, just like your organs as individuals can't experience life or feel pain. For the last time. Chemical reactions do not mean they can feel pain. When you are in a coma you cannot feel pain because your brain is lacks the power to interpret anything as a sensation. End of story.

Since you can't comprehend science, to make this argument even dumber, let's just say for the sake of argument, plants can feel pain, and on the same level that animals can. Vegans would still be causing less suffering and death. Animal agriculture causes the "suffering and death" of more plants since livestock animals need to eat plants to live and grow. Animal agriculture is also the main cause of deforestation, and since animal agriculture is reducing our food supply because animals eat grains and other plant food that we could be eating, millions of people are suffering and dying from malnutrition and starvation. So what's your excuse now? I agree with you, plants feel pain too! So isn't it only logical to reduce the amount of suffering and death we cause. Not only to animals, but to plants and people as well?

>>38664282
Heres a couple old ones. I'll keep looking for the one i found about 2 years ago. That went in aboutvthe LEDs and all the awesom tech they have.

https://youtu.be/vXgUEiwYuKU

https://youtu.be/cY7O5YNxKuI

>>38663091
Don't worry anon, if you eat and assimilate the cow, he will always live inside your heart

>>38664290
microalgae or yeast based supplement

>>38664314
This was already discussed. The plant to meat ratio wouldn't help if we all just ate plants, we'd have to compemsate for the lack of space and the lack of actual food supply. 9+billion people in the world. It takes a handfull of fat cows to feed compared to the quadrillions of pounds of plant matter we would consume to compensate would be just as bad if not worse to kur environment. Since we humans shit so often and eating only plants would increase our poop amounts. Which would flood our sewers and rivers and also push out insane amouts of methane into our atmosphere.

>>38663767
Bring me the numbers from the IPCC where people who actually have nobel prizes on environmental sciences and research on climate change. The meat industry being part of the AFOLU sector generates only a fraction of 24% greenhouse gasses,if I recall correctly its about 12% and even that is shared with agriculture which is subdivided in food for human consumption and food for animals so that leaves it in the single digits and not 50+% like that document and cowspiracy try to present it.
https://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar5/syr/SYR_AR5_FINAL_full_wcover.pdf

>>38664320
Yes I've seen the vertical farm thing and that is for human consumption because the plants do not grow at a rate that livestock animals would need.

>>38663363
>The question was, do you really need meat to get protein?
>Whats your excuse, is a follow up question.
Seeing as how everyone in the universe knows some vegetables have some amount of protein that's a pretty shitty question. Of course you don't technically NEED meat. It's just much superior in every way. You can always make your life more difficult if you choose to and no you don't NEED meat if you want to eat four kilograms of broccoli a day. I don't want to eat 4kg of broccoli a day. That's my answer to your follow up question which is the only question worth answering.

>>38664379
>he doesn't eat 30kg of bananas a day

>>38663091
*taste
*cows are evil
*i am not a fag like you
there are several reasons anon

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>>38663436
>with none of the violence
because humans rose to the top of the food chain and became the dominant species all around the planet by avoiding violence

>>38663522
but whey tastes like shit

>>38663170
so you excuse is that plants won't suffer "enough"?
go fuck yourself, you need to eat live stuff to survive, the day you can eat rocks come back

>>38664376
What? You must be high. If you have the proper lighting, the proper amount of ferts and water. The plants are gonna grow extreamly fast. I work with plants daily, i have taken classes and have read book after book and article after articles about many different plants. As long as you section off areas where the stuff is over grazed it should be fine. I don't see something that simple preventing it from working.

>>38664404
whey doesn't taste like anything

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>>38664407
Omg, the eating rocks line got me laughing for some reason.

>>38663249
>Plants have all the protein you need without the violence.
>it's not violent to kill a plant because i can't relate to the pain they suffer, they aren't kawaii like mister cow!

>>38664408
It's much more sustainable for us to eat those plant foods directly rather than to cut some forest to host animals raise them on that plant food, eventually murder them, and only get a few hundred pounds of meat. End of story. You don't have to be a genius to figure that out. Don't breed animals to filter plant foods through. It doesn't matter where the plant foods come from, it's always more sustainable for us to eat them directly rather than to filter it through animals.

>>38664425
Not more efficient for space and time. To compensate the lack of meat we would have to ship like 5 jumbo jets full of veggies and fruits to a place when we can just send 10 cows and like 10 hogs. Also the plants dont keep as long, they spoil much faster than we can actually eat them so most of the waste can be used for livestock as well. its always more efficient to just do both.

>>38664348
>microalgae or yeast based supplement

Cheers mate! will make the switch soon!

>>38663902
EVEN THEN
Many more plants are killed (per g or per kcal, henceforth "unit") to make a unit of cow
If you eat a unit of cow, you are killing also many many units of plants, whereas you could replace it with just a unit of plant food
Kys

>>38664445
what about food and water cost for the cows and hogs?
shitty argument m8

>>38663091
Having roast pork today in your honor, anon.

>>38663752
>The adventist health study
stopped right there, vegan and a cultist.
good thing you will kill yourself soon.

>>38663170
That's only as far as we know. They may have other ways to feel. Just because you can't hear them, you arrogant fuck, DOESN'T MEAN THE BROCCOLI ISN'T SCREAMING WHEN YOU BOIL IT ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>38664490
Yes, but to put that into perspective. We humans eat alot as is.when eating nothing but plant material we tend to pass most of it fairly quickly. So that means we would be constantly hungry, constantly shitting, constantly eating all day and all night long. But not even thats the biggest issue. Its the garbage, we throw away insane amounts of produce as it is already. If we only had plants to eat we would be over loading with refuse from all this excess plant material. Where 99% of a cow can basically be used for something.

>>38664514
Whats money got to do with it?

I eat meat because I was born with a biological imperative which compels me to seek out the most calorie dense food sources, thereby increasing the likelihood of successfully procreating.

What do you think this is, some kind of game ?

>>38663091
i like to kill animals just for fun and eat them afterwards.

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>>38663091
11.1 grams of inferior and hardly usable protein per 100 Cals which is about a fucking kilo of brock lee

you vegan fucks would have to eat three or four large heads of that shit to get even close to a small hamburger patty protein wise

>>38664770
pretty much this. if anything, eating them is an afterthought.

>>38663091
100 calories of beef = 40g
100 calories of broccoli = 350g

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>>38663091
What am I excusing myself for?

>>38663436
Define "really need"

>>38663653
It's still fallacious propaganda anon

>>38663091
Do REALLY NEED to lie and manipulate people with propaganda to promote your cause?

Do you REALLY NEED to convert meat eaters?

>>38663730
>Cuz

Nice touch

>>38663767
>information that has nothing to do with nutrition

Argue politics somewhere else. We're talking about nutrition.

>>38663091
I only turkey, and have repeatedly failed to phase it out of my diet.

I have multiple severe food allergies, and intolerance, as well as SIBO. My diet is already very restricted and the amount of iteration I've gone through just to manage to eat puts it into the range of engineered outright.

a good deal of meat eaters are delusional, psychologically weak twats though. This is absolutely true. They refuse to take a mechanistic approach to understanding the machinery of the human body, and parrot nonsense that suits what they want to hear.
>muh taste
>muh deliberately poor understanding of human biology and nutrition
>muh "whatevs we all die eventually anyway" half acknowledgements
Fuck you people, lol.

>>38663091
>per 100 calories
Okay, no compare the protein content by gram and you will see how totally impractical a vegan diet is.

>>38663864
Pain is an inducator of bodily damage. Plants have their own different manner of detecting damage. Could this system of damage reporting not be called"pain"?

>>38663864
>fallacious argumemts to eat meat
because my body can process ot just fine. There perfectly nonfallacious and completely justifying as what one chooses to eat is not a moral issue.

>>38663091

>100 calories of broccoli
>one cup of broccoli contains 31 calories, which means you would have to eat more than 3 cups of broccoli to get 11.1 grams of protein.
>1 cup = 250 millilitres

I have to eat HOW MUCH fucking broccoli?

>>38663091
I never once tasted broccoli because I think it will taste like shit.

Am I wrong?

>>38664818
>Still has estrogennnnnnnnnnnnn

>>38664898
>mechanistic approach to understanding the body

Elaborate what relevance this has and why this approach would lead someone to veganism without appealing to morality or emotion.

>muh animals have feels
>muh arable land
>muh plants have protein

>>38664868
Do you REALLY NEED to bump this thread? We had this troll thread for years
And yet ppl are falling for it
It seems that infographics are worse than 9/11

>>38664965
But estrogen is good because you will be more empathetic and less violent. Testosterone promotes violence so it's bad. Eat vegetables and drink estrogen water anon. The world will be a better place.

>>38664944
You're just an average ameritard.

>>38665008
BLOOOOOOOD

>>38663091
I eat both

>>38663864
>And again 0 studies have found that plants are sentient beings that can subjectively experience reality, pain, and suffering.

0 studies have shown that about anything, seeing as it's philosophically impossible to establish whether anything other than yourself has a subjective experience.

That's what i don't understand about people like you, who instantly dismiss an idea like plants being conscious (pretty reasonably), but then just unquestionably take at face value that cows are sentient. How do you know they are?

>>38663130
>People are replying to 4 and down like its serious
>people don't think 2 or 3 are true

Do any of you fucktards do any sort of reading?

I didn't read every post, but I've seen that vegans are less likely to die of a heart disease and that meat multiply to risk of cancer. Never cared about the morality of it, but vegan sounds like a healthier choice.

Should I go vegan /fit/ ? I guess it will be very hard to keep gains, but I want to live a long life. I just don't know if there are vegan diets to get bigger, or if I should made one myself.

> gimme reals opinions not biased shit or your mother will die eating meat

>>38665194
There are probably much more effective things you can do to live longer, like cardio & just eating healthy in general. You can eat vegan and be pretty unhealthy, so either way you will have to put in the effort to figure out where to source high-quality, healthy food and what you want to spend most of your time eating.

>>38665141
The philosophical debate about whether animals feel pain and sentience is about as relevant as the philosophical debate about whether the entire universe is just something I'm imagining.

Science is pretty firmly behind the fact that large mammals are at least as self aware as an autistic NEET.

>>38665242
Yes, I'm thinking about that. I should strongly lessen my intake of meat, that's for sure but becoming a pure vegan would be a stupid idea because I'd force myself to avoid some stuff. I don't want to suppress things out of my life just because I've said so, I'll just have healthy meals and some meat from time to time. I'm okay with less meat, but I fucking love good fish.

To every anon, I'm not shitposting or okay with OP's pic but I do believe you need to lay off the meat to be healthier.

>>38665194
Just avoid processed meats if anything.

>>38665276
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmXynDLkbXY

>>38665271
As with basically everything in life, there are diminishing returns, and going 80% or even 50% of the way will give you 90%+ of the results.

If you want to lower e.g. cholesterol, just limit intake of eggs and other cholesterol-heavy foods a little, and you've solved the problem to 99%. Now the reason you'll die early will probably be something else, and there's no point sweating about getting that last 1% on the cholesterol issue, when there may be other, much more pressing issues.

>>38665313
I never liked the argument that I shouldn't worry about this kind of danger because other dangers were present in the universe that will ultimately lead to my death. I refused this argument when used about not banning guns, and I will refuse it once again.
But the beginning of your message is nice, I'm taking this advice.

>>38665332
my point is not that you shouldn't worry about anything in particular, my point is that in order to make ANY kind of progress, you need to worry about the most important things first. If you just spend all your time e.g. perfecting and tracking your cholesterol intake, and therefore end up not having time to keep other, much more important parameters of your diet under control, then you're overall doing a bad job.

OK I'm vegan and getting really sick of these dumb threads. Let's make one thing clear: the debate on veganism is a debate regarding ETHICS. NOTHING ELSE. JUST ETHICS. This applies to both sides.

>'B-but what about the environment?' says the vegan
A diet that is more plant-reliant is better for the environment, but that doesn't mean you have to go full vegan, only eat LESS meat and dairy - and especially less of that factory farmed crap. Locally sourced and organic meat/dairy is better for the environment than mock-meat bullshit made from soy grown in ravaged rainforests. Don't lie. Don't lie to make veganism look better because you're vegan, you are ruining it for everyone.

>'B-but what about the health benefits?' says the vegan
Same as above - whatever benefits a 100% vegan diets might give, you'd get with a 70-80% plant based diet as well, plus it would be easier on a personal level and you wouldn't have to worry about supplements. We're lifters; we should be eating a ton of veggies whether we eat meat or not.

>'B-but muh brotein!' says the omnivore
Drink a protein shake. Like you would've done anyway because you lift and thus drink protein shakes.

>'B-but muh soy estrogens!' says the omnivore
Broscience, but it doesn't matter anyway. Just don't eat soy-products. Plenty of vegan protein powders are soy-free. Hemp has way better micros anyway. And like I said, soy has environmnental problems associated with it anyway so if you give a shit about the planet, skip out on it.

>'B-but muh b12/taurine/whatever else!' says the omnivore
Take a supplement or eat fortified food. There's no difference for the body, and claiming that a diet that doesn't have to (ideally) rely on supplements/fortification is "better" because it's more "natural" is a fallacy. Also especially stupid comming from /fit/izens who take tons of supplements anyway: it comes out as "hurr durr I take 17 supplements and you have to take 19 hurr dumb vegan!"

>>38665352
(Also, vegans claiming veganism is more natural are commiting a fallacy too. It doesn't matter. "Natural" does not equal "good" or "better", it just does not so let it the fuck go.)

>>38665352
> JUST ETHICS

speak for yourself. Absolutely not true in general, and many vegans will defend this.

>>38663091
IT'S A LIE
T
'
S

A

L
I
E

>>38665368
Like I explain in my post, it's the only reason to go FULL vegan. There are other benefits, of course, but those are not the REASON but merely side-effects, since being 99% vegan and having the occasional lean chicken from a local, organic farm would give you these benefits as well.

If there is another rational or scientific reason to go 100% vegan other than pure ethics, let me know.

>>38664979
>Elaborate what relevance this has
Presence of neu5gc and high levels of methionine, in addition to the typical low quality of meat and contaminants from typical processing methods.

To suit your asinine criteria.

>>38663091

My excuse is that your picture is absolute bullshit

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>>38663538
>eating 40 kg of broccoli

>>38663091
My excuse is that i'm too lazy to be a vegetarianfag.Long live meat!

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>>38663091
My excuse is that your pic is full of shit and you are a faggot.

>>38663091
Do you know how much 100 calories of broccoli is? That's a mectric fuckton of broccoli, maybe 2 entire bowls worth realistically.

>>38665570
C'MON
40 KILOS
LET'S GET CANCER

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>>38665700
>>38665660
>>38665570
>>38665721

>Not understanding that the pic is a meme likely created by anti-vegans as a straw-man, that OP is a troll, and that the reason some vegans have accepted the pic is that all movements are filled with idiots who ruin them with their stupidity.
Pic related, brehs...

>>38663091
Why does this image use broccoli when there are a lot of actually high protein non-meats out there?

Seitan is fucking 75g/100g protein. This image was either made by a meat eater as a false flag, or a very stupid person who doesn't know how to vegan properly.

>>38665745
Chickpeas as well.

>>38665352
Considering that between 95-99% of meat is factory farmed, I think this "locally sourced" point is kind of bullshit. Everyone claims to buy all their meat from a magical local farm where all of the animals die of happiness after living long fulfilling lives, but the figures don't back it up. If nobody is eating factory farmed meat then why is the overwhelming majority of meat consumed from a factory?

>>38663487
Best answer.

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>>38663150

Kek

>>38665764
Agreed. Indeed "locally sourced" is used more as an argument against vegans rather than being something people truly to and believe in.

And yet, it's true: the fact that most meat is factory produced is an accidental and not an essential property of meat-production (if you'll forgive the pretentiousness of the Aristotelian distinction). Demonstrating that factory farming is bad is not an argument for veganism, it's and argument against factory farming.

An argument for complete veganism must be that ALL killing of animals for food is wrong when not absolutely necessary, even if it happens on a magical farm of giggles and rainbows where animals get handjobs everyday. And that MUST be an ethical argument.

I'm not saying that arguments on health and environment are wrong; I'm saying that they are arguments against accidental properties of meat-production. How it happens to be producted as is, the fact that people eat too much of the wrong kinds of meat, etc. etc. They don't attact the essential problem: you are killing a sentient being because you want to eat its flesh.

>why is the overwhelming majority of meat consumed from a factory
Capitalism works that way.

Nutrients available in meats that aren't available in vegetables.

>>38663091
Because it tastes fucking good.

>>38665925
Such as?

>>38663249
Why would I want to avoid the violence? I love violence

>>38665875
>Capitalism works that way

Doesn't this kind of suggest that despite factory farming not theoretically being necessary for global meat production it is inherent in modern meat consumption?

In that sense, given that we DO live in a modern context rather than a hypothetical vacuum, caN it not be used as an argument?

>>38664420
>I don't understand the difference between conscious creatures and non-conscious organisms

>>38665255
Completely false, and the question is beyond the current scope of science in any case.

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>>38663091
the amino acid makeup of meat is way better than broccoli for forming muscle mass

>>38666030
>Doesn't this kind of suggest that despite factory farming not theoretically being necessary for global meat production it is inherent in modern meat consumption?
Oh yes, absolutely. Organic farming can only exist in a limited quantity, and becomes relegated to a upper-middle class luxury. (The same is true of all organic farming, including that of vegetables.)

>In that sense, given that we DO live in a modern context rather than a hypothetical vacuum, can it not be used as an argument?
Yup, factory farming can pretty much can be said to be an essential property of meat-production under capitalism. It's unavoidable except for people with money for whom it then becomes a luxury.

But it's still not an argument for veganism, just for veganism (or the boycott of meat) as a strategy against the current system.

>>38666187

I'm not sure I follow the distinction. It's an argument for veganism as a strategy against the current system, but not an argument for veganism? Is that not contradictory?

Again, I understand that in a vacuum it's not an argument for veganism, but if we're being pragmatic rather than abstract then it is. Right?

>>38663130
>some people actually believe this shit

>>38663091
How many kilograms of broccoli do I need to eat to get 100 calories?

I easily make my protein goals on rice and beans to be honest and I know that there are health risks involved with red meat and possibly all meat, but I like to eat it sparingly as a delicacy.

>>38663091

Grams per 100 calories of broccoli = 324g
Grams per 100 calories of beef = 32g

That's my excuse

>mfw meat-eaters and milk-chuggers get bitch tits and cancer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6q8E2-Egdo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M33fV0IE9zQ

>>38663091
Beef - to get 100 calories you have to eat 40g of meat

Broccoli - to get 100 calories you have to eat 300g of it

>1lb of broccoli for 30g of protein
Ok greencucks

>>38663091
I like to kill living things.

>>38666237
>if we're being pragmatic rather than abstract then it is
Pretty much. I'm just trying to separate practical strategy and logic for the purpose of a stronger argument.

So what I'm saying is, that when a meat-eater brings up the happy-magical-farm argument, a proper vegan response is something like: "there is some merit to the idea that an ideal form of animal agriculture would lessen the suffering of animals, but given the current economic paradigm that point is moot since factory farming is an inherent part of animal agriculture under capitalism, and is inescapable for most people who cannot afford high-priced 'ethical meats'. However, even the ideal situation is still one where animals are killed for food, and this is unethical even if it is arguably 'better' than torturing them before killing them."

>>38666073
>Plants aren't conscious

Would somebody please get this shitlord out of here?

>>38666391
>>38666297
>>38666248
That pic is still a strawman-meme created by anti-vegans. The fact that it is clearly wrong does not discredit veganism.

>>38666535
>does not discredit veganism.

It does for bodybuilding and general fitness goals

>>38666532
Yeah, insults are easier than arguments.

>>38663913
What the fuck are you even talking about? Livestock requires a whole bunch of crops and water. If you used those crops to feed people instead of livestock, you'd need fewer crops and have more area that could be left for the wild to repopulate.

>>38663091
Ok, but how much blood does broccoli has, hmm?? Well, I'll tell you: 0! That's how much! Broccoli has 0% blood in it. I need blood in my diet and broccoli wont cut it!

>>38663091
I eat both though. Broccoli is an amazing vegetable.

>>38666552
Not really, it just discredits broccoli for bodybuilding and general fitness goals. There are plenty of plant-based protein sources that can be used to build muscle. Broccoli just isn't one of them.

>>38666903
>Broccoli just isn't one of them.

There is no other plant-based food that packs as many protein as meat in so little weight without side-effects. Prove me wrong.

>>38663103
>he fell for the complete protein meme
The guy who made that up recanted years ago, anon.

>>38666930
Seitan. 75g protein per 100g. Made from wheat gluten.

>>38666956
>gluten

I mentioned side effects.

>>38666975
Yeah, and meat raises the risk of cancer. Is that not a side effect?

>>38666975
>being a coeliac

>>38666987
Gluten affects you within hours or days. Meat can be consumed occasionally without side effects and cancer can be prevented.

>>38667001
>being born at all

Just kys, it's easier.

>>38663582
Jesus man. What is psychological projection.
>Unironically getting upset on a harmonica cleaning website

>>38666930
1. Your assumption is that for bodybuilding and fitness purposed, one MUST eat the most protein dense thing that exists. This is false. One needs to get a certain amount of protein, of course, so eating relatively protein dense foods is crucial (i.e. not relying on broccoli for protein!), but it doesn't have to be the MOST protein dense thing ever as long as one gets one's daily protein.

2. You are assuming that heavy meat eating has no consequences. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that you need to prove this yourself and not just assume it.

3. Soybeans have 36g protein per 100g (but that's dry) and no there's no side-effects; even the broscience on soy is about soy-products and soy isolate, not the natural bean itself.

Tempeh has 19g protein per 100g, and tofu has about the same (depends on the brand though, seen as low as 8g). No, these do not have side-effects either.

Vegan qourn (based on mycoprotein) has different amount depending on the product, but around 16-18g per 100g for the best ones, which is twice as much as pork.

Seitain has 75g of protein per 100g (but not a complete protein, though you failed to specify that as part of the challenge).

4. You fell for the protein meme, breh.

>>38667009
If you have sensitivity to gluten, or are a coeliac. Are you? I'm not. Most people are not.

Also, you're shifting your goalposts.

>vegan thing can have no side effects
>meat can because reasons

The fact that some people are intolerant to gluten in no way detracts from the fact that it can act as a more protein-dense source than meat whilst containing less cholesterol.

Did I say plant based sources are always superior? No.

Did I say there are plant based sources of protein which can work perfectly well for building muscle? Yes.

Also, >>38667073 this.

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>>38666975
>>38667001
>falling for the gluten meme
>thinking that being midly inconvenienced by eating seitan, which you can quickly and cheeply make at home, justifies paying premium buck for the killing of something with thoughts and emotions that can feel fear and the raising of which is environmentally harmful and the production of which harms workers as well

my excuse is not giving a shit about animals dying

>>38667073
>Soybeans

Estrogen.

>Tempeh
>Tofu
>Vegan Qourn

Too expensive for a plentiful mass gaining diet.

>Seitain
Gluten.


>>38667098
I talked about side effects on a shorter time frame, which are harder to be avoided while still consuming the food.

Most people are at least sensible to gluten and don't even realize it. I don't start shitting myself, but bowels are disturbed and I get lethargic.

Also, again, too expensive. Inb4 "poor" or "no excuses". Furthermore, most of those products objectively taste horrible.

>>38667121
Serious question: do you care if a pet of friend's/family member's pet dies? Do you care about endangered animals dying? Are there some animals you do care about? Why/why not?

>>38667136

>Estrogen

Oh boy, here comes the broscience.

>Like cow's milk, soy milk contains some estrogenlike compounds. These phytoestrogens, found in several types of plants, have different effects than naturally produced human estrogens. Phytoestrogens can both mimic and counteract the effects of natural estrogen, regulating the estrogen activity in your body.

>Dairy cows naturally produce estrogens that are transferred to their milk. According to Ganmaa Davaasambuu, a physician and scientist at the Harvard School of Public Health, dairy products account for 60 to 80 percent of the estrogen consumed in the typical American diet. Drinking large quantities of cow's milk may significantly increase your estrogen levels. These hormones in milk have the potential to increase your risk of prostate cancer and reduce fertility, according to Davaasambuu.

>http://www.livestrong.com/article/554285-does-milk-raise-estrogen-in-men/

So if you care about estrogen, I suppose you consume no dairy?

>>38667136

Actually, at first you just said "side effects" with no mention of timeframe. Hence the shifting goalposts.

>>38667136
>Estrogen
Like I said, it's broscience and even the broscience concerns isolates and not the bean itself.

>Too expensive
Waaaaaaaay cheaper than meat at least where I live. And we weren't discussing price, you are moving the goal-post and inventing new reasons.

>for a plentiful mass gaining diet
Good thing stuff like beans, lentils, quinoa and peas are cheap as fuck and contain both protein and carbs! Perfect foods for clean bulks.

>Gluten
Not a problem unless you are allergic or have fallen hard for a dumb meme.

http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/02/23/how-a-gluten-free-diet-can-be-harmful/
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/opinion/sunday/the-myth-of-big-bad-gluten.html?_r=0
http://www.webmd.com/diet/healthy-kitchen-11/truth-about-gluten
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rosspomeroy/2014/05/15/non-celiac-gluten-sensitivity-may-not-exist/#4e3de7c16f0c

>>38665352
>Locally sourced and organic meat/dairy is better for the environment than mock-meat bullshit made from soy grown in ravaged rainforests.

Fucking thank you. This has always been a HUGE pet peeve of mine with the vegan crowd. Even though I don't support the meatpacking industry at all, they try to claim that my pastured livestock and chickens are as bad as grain fed factory meat and dairy.

The rest of your comment is retarded but at least that was a good point.

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>>38663091
Ayyy lmao

>>38667181
I didn't even set goalposts, so you didn't see them. Now they're set.

>>38667181
>There is no other plant-based food that packs as many protein as meat in so little weight without side-effects. Prove me wrong.

Do you not know what goalposts means?

>>38667213
Meant for >>38667199

>>38667187
>The rest of your comment is retarded
Explain why?

> they try to claim that my pastured livestock and chickens are as bad as grain fed factory meat and dairy.
Most vegans don't research those things and just parrot whatever they hear from other vegans. I can't blame them, really, I just happen to be academically interested in those issues.


>>38667199
You set a brief yet clear challenge in your first post, and when people responded you kept adding stuff and changing the challenge; suddely it was about short-term effects, and price of food and etc. Those where not part of the original challenge, hence you have "moved the goalpost".

>>38667184
>Good thing stuff like beans, lentils, quinoa and peas are cheap as fuck and contain both protein and carbs! Perfect foods for clean bulks.

Same problem as broccoli.

>>38667184
>Waaaaaaaay cheaper than meat at least where I live. And we weren't discussing price, you are moving the goal-post and inventing new reasons.

Congrats. Send some over then because it's too expensive here.

>>38664094
because fuck carrageenan

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>>38666535
Holy fucking kek.

>Vegans make a demonstrably wrong image as part of their orchestrated campaign of lies and misdirection to trick people into joining their cult
>after they get BTFO and put on suicide watch, vegans claim the image was made to make vegans look bad

Jesus fucking christ, just admit you knowingly posted a wrong image to try to trick people into joining your skinny fat cult. You're not fooling anyone, we all know vegans are consummate liars.

>>38666956
>dry weight

I hate this vegan meme more than most of your misdirection tactics. Nobody is eating dry seitan. Maybe j should start using dried lean beef to make the protein per 100 g seem more appealing since it works for vegans so well.

Stop using that picture you retard it literally does nothing but hurt the agenda of getting people to switch over and feel better about themselves in both aspects of health and ethics.

sincerely a vegan who isn't retarded

>>38667171
>livestrong

Opinion discarded.

>>38667184
>Like I said, it's broscience and even the broscience concerns isolates and not the bean itself.

It's not in the slightest. I hate vegans innate need to lie to prove their point.

>Good thing stuff like beans, lentils, quinoa and peas are cheap as fuck and contain both protein and carbs! Perfect foods for clean bulks.

Terrible protein to calorie ratios, and most that protein isn't even bioavailable. They're actually worse than broccoli.

>>38667223
>Explain why?

Not retarded necessarily, I just disagree with several points. I don't feel like discussing it in depth so I'll leave it at that.

>>38667257
>dried beef
>31 protons
>seitan
>75 protons

http://www.nutritionvalue.org/Beef,_dried,_cured_nutritional_value.html

Sure, use dried lean beef.

Does it hurt so much to Google your claims before posting them? Like, just to check if you're right.

>>38663091
implying plants don't want to live too

>>38666930
TVP - 44 grams of protein per 100 grams.

>>38667287
>Discards scientific opinions from Harvard School of Public Health because of the website the article is on
>posts no citations for any of his own points

wew

>>38667257
>start using dried lean beef
Which is called beef jerky and is delicious and something people would actually eat, unlike dried seitan.

If you are willing to spend ridiculous money, there are couple companies that do shit like filet mignon or even Kobe beef jerky too.

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>>38663475
These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots!
You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust.

>>38667309
I didn't say it'd be a higher protein to gram ratio dried than Seitan on paper, just that I should steal this vegan misdirection tactic to make things seem better than they are. Nice reading comprehension.

>>38667336
No, they're from one guy from harvard, on livestrong. It's a tenuous appeal to authority at best, which is even more hilarious because it glosses over phytoestrogens and immediately rips on the miniscule amounts of estrogen in some dairy. It's just more vegan propoganda.

>>38667396
Fair enough, the fact that you were calling it misdirection suggested to me that the higher protein content of seitan would be invalidated if compared to dried beef, which it is not.

I thought you were trying to make a point.

>>38667427
>minuscule

Dairy is the most estrogen dense food in most western diets. The relevant point is that phytoestrogens and estrogens are not the same thing and do not always affect the body in the same way, and yet people only seem to care about dietary estrogen when it comes to soy. They're happy to chug it down when it's from an animal product.

Also,
>questions authority of source
>calls response to that an appeal to authority

frig off vegan stains

>>38663091
>none of the violence
>plants don't have feelings

There are not enough curses in all the tongues of men, elves, orcs or ents for this treachery


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>38663211
>brocoly
>aprox
>"gr" for grams, not "g"

>>38667192
What site are you using to get this information? It looks useful.

>>38663220
This argument is so goddamn dumb. By this logic we might as well eat people.


Eating animals is not as bad as eating people.

Eating plants is not as bad as eating animals.

You're like those fags who water their lawns 24/7 cuz "we waste so much water in the shower whats the point"

>>38663282
>Plants dont have different tastes and textures

Wut

>>38663130
>>38663154
>>38663207
>>38663220
>>38663475
>>38663482
>>38663497
>>38663576
>>38663597
>>38663652
>>38663689
>>38663784
>>38663843
>>38663902
>>38664015
>>38664040
>>38664049
>>38664063
>>38664126
>I cant bare to keep reading

I had no idea how uneducated fit is on basic biology and the science of perception, holy shit...

A nervous system is required for perception, to talk about "feeling" without a PNS and CNS is to be semantically retarded; feeling can only be meaningfully defined within the context of a system that experiences. Reaction to stimuli and experience of stimuli are clearly not the same thing. This is as clearly demonstrated as you would ever need it to be by paraplegic people. They dont feel anything that isnt connected to the brain, even when the nerves of the PNS are undamaged. Paraplegics can still have a patellar relex reaction, a response to stimuli, but with absolutely zero experience of pain or feeling. Pain and feeling are not what we are talking about when observing reactions by systems without a nervous system and a central processor.

Holy shit, anyone who doesn't or cant understand this needs to remove themselves from the gene pool immediately

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>>38663752
Actually, the article you posted is for a well planned vegatarian diet, not a vegan.

But obviosly your brain is rotting.

>>38667732
Except that's wrong Mr. Veganfag. Pain and feeling are just reactions to stimuli that we interpret a certain way.

>>38667514
Gr is for grains

>>38663091
>there are people who don't eat broccoli with their beef

Why settle for one when you can have both?

>>38663091
>implying taking one life is worst than another

>>38667798
The key word here is interpret. Yes, that is what we do, and "interpret" is something plants cant do, they have no brain, Interpretation is a phenomenological experience, one that can only happen in a brain. Where the hell would a plant interpret from? in their leaves? the roots? Contrary to new age retards, we know a great deal about biology, and there is zero evidence to support any notion of experience, feeling, pain, interpretation or any other mental state without a PNS and CNS

>not a vegan, I eat fish and my pet chickens eggs
>Yours truly, a PhD in biology and a bioethicist for a publication I guarantee you have all read

>>38667225
>Same problem as broccoli.
How? It's got like x5-8 times the amount of protein, and lots of complex carbs. Combine with protein shakes and some tofu/tempeh/saitan/qourn and you've got the perfect bulking food.

>too expensive here
Go to Asian stores, usually at least 25% of the price. Buy in bulk. Also don't rely on it too much. Where the hell do you live where tofu is more expensive than meat??

>>38667237
A wrongful statement by a single person claiming to represent a big movement does not represent the whole movement.

Why is this such a hard concept to graps? Is it because it's about vegans so you react emotionally? Lets use another example:

If I made an image that presented, say, some piece of economic info that is wrong, and claimed I was a Trump supporter, that image would neither prove that I truly was a Trump supporter nor discredit him as a candidate. The wrongness of the image would discredit the image and nothing else. Do you follow now?


>>38667287
>"I hate vegans innate need to lie to prove their point."
>Is a meathead that lies, exaggerates and evades questions to prove his point.
>Claims that beans, lentils, quinoa and peas are worse than broccoli for protein, which is just retarded.
>Offers no evidence that soybeans are bad; does not consider that soybeans are not essential to a vegan diet (just happen to feature prominently).
Why do you even CARE about this so much???

>>38667304
Fair enough. There are no controversial factual statements or even strong opinons there, so I was just curious about what you diagreed with. I mean sure, one can disagree about soy estrogen being broscience or something, but like I argue it doesn't matter whether soy causes estrogen increase or not.

>>38667908
Thank you for being fair and unbiased, science-bro.

>>38667898
>Pro-life troglodyte

>>38667287
>It's not in the slightest. I hate vegans innate need to lie to prove their point.
Don't lump us all together, I can't stand the soybean delusion either. These people eat it solely because it was peddled as a health food in the 90's, this generated collectively held biases, and then social feedback loops allow it to become integrated in the image. The ethos, the identity.

Not all vegans lack insight and risk assessment, and are too retarded to understand basic biochemistry and pharmacology enough to not consume genistein etc. Soybeans have a long history in the US. At this point they're simply preferred because of their relatively quick and orderly growing cycle, and Monsanto's considerable investments.

If you're eating soy, you're being an idiot. This goes for post-menopausal women as well. Soy borders on poison, fermented or not.

>>38667941
>like I argue it doesn't matter whether soy causes estrogen increase or not.
This shows you don't actually understand what you're arguing about.

>>38667119
>thinking that being midly inconvenienced by eating seitan, which you can quickly and cheeply make at home

>check "how to make seitan"
>it's mainly flour
>full of protein

wat

>>38667908
das speciesis

>>38666535
Veganism is discredited by the sheer fact that it's unnatural and fucking retarded...

vegans unequivocally BTFO in this thread. there is no reason to be a vegan other than 'muh feeelz'

>>38667309
Dried cod is the same as dried seitan

>>38668634
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Try not being so fucking retarted

>>38668634
>dislikes unnatural things
>is arguing with people on a Latvian shoe repair forum

>>38668674
Slightly less.

http://www.nutritionvalue.org/Fish,_dried_and_salted,_Atlantic,_cod_nutritional_value.html

>>38663249
He said the pic was full of lies. It isn't. BTFO

>>38667908
>vegans are even estatting their education on /fit/ to try to act like they know what they're talking about

If you poke your hand on a needle, you'll instinctively retract your hand despite your brain not processing the stimulus. You reacted to the pain, but did not interpret it. How can you prove other animals feel pain as we do if your sole point hinges on pain interpretation? We're leaps and bounds ahead of other animals mentally, so what basis do you base the idea that they interpret pain as we do? I'd venture to claim that animals are incapable of doing more than reacting to pain, not interpreting it.

>>38667915
>Why do you even CARE about this so much???
>proceeds to respond to several of my posts

Takes two people to have a conversation m8. I don't mind vegans doing their meme diet quietly, I mind them coming on /fit/ every day and lying and shilling all the time. I didn't really give a fuck about vegans prior to the vegans shit posting here.

>>38668053
Sorry man, but it's hard not to lump all vegans together because ones who have a good head on their shoulder is rare.

>>38669256
Not the same guy, but for the most part our brains are pretty similar to those of other animals. True, certain areas are massively overdeveloped, but for the most part they're structurally very alike. Do you honestly think that we can infer absolutely no similarity of experience from that compared to a plant?

>>38668742
>and salted
Not the same. Dried cod without salt has higher percentage because it is pure fish.

>>38669486
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4042/2

Even less. Can you show me what you mean? I can't seem to find macros for pure dried cod.

>>38668682

"It is usually an invalid argument, because the implicit (unstated) primary premise "What is natural is good" typically is irrelevant, having no cogent meaning in practice, or is an opinion instead of a fact."

>USUALLY invalid
>TYPICALLY irrelevant
>argues about a natural process
>believes whether or not that natural process is acted upon following parameters dictated by the highly specialised equipment developed to perform said natural process is irrelevant

it is not invalid or irrelevant in this situation and if you can't see that you're literally too fucking stupid to breathe. In indeed you even breathe oxygen, perhaps you breathe nitrogen since the natural need to specifically respire oxygen is invalid apparently...

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>>38669840

P.s. Inb4 pic related

>>38669840
It is kind of invalid because it's also not natural to factory farm and consume meat at the rate we do. Same goes for drinking cow milk, that's unnatural as fuck.

>>38669926
The argument isn't about the processes used to acquire nutrition, nor the amount, but the source. It is natural for a cat for example, to eat meat. But if you have it a vegan diet it would die. In that case what is natural (meat) and what is unnatural (not meat) can directly be considered good and bad. The argument that something being natural = good is not automatically invalid

>>38670158
No, but in this context it doesn't really add anything either. Modern meat consumption is just as unnatural as a vegan diet, so either side appealing to nature is kind of pointless. Also, cats are exclusive carnivores. Humans are not.