It's over lads

>>37212290
You're going to have to post more than one study, pal.

>>37212290

Who cares

I don't want to be a fatass so I can look good and be able to perform basic activities

>>37212297
It's going to be a while before studies that cost millions of dollars and take decades to perform can confirm the data but you have to be pretty bone-headed to dismiss a study as large as this in a very reputable journal with pretty iron-clad methodology

BMI is not a good factor for obesity.

Old news. Literally only /fit/-tier boards don't believe it.

If you need some other info: The Swiss recently proves that in the Middle Ages, people were at least overweight on average.

But hey, who cares. Squats and oats, right? lol. Well, okay, oats are actually good.

>>37212329
Yeah man, all those high BMI fatties in the study were secretly bodybuilders.

>>37212290
>Maybe HAES was right all along and we're being stitched up by the diet industry.
Yes.

>By getting /fit/ we're actually killing ourselves
Probably not. Well, depends.

>>37212290
>Doesn't measure morbidity
>Doesn't measure deviation from ideal weight, just "overweight" or not
Gr8 b8 m8

Slightly overweight , but cardiovascularly healthy old people recover from illness better than skinny old people, because they have stores to fall back on. This gives a mild protective effect. This is well documented as fuck.

>>37212314
Its still just one study. One point of data, any wild conclusion could be generated from it. If say two more studies confirmed this one then maybe there's some merit. (Maybe.)

>>37212391
>I am scientifically illiterate
Oh man. Americans...

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>>37212348
My BMI is 28 and BF15%, I just look thick.

Guys can easily be healthy at 25-30bmi if they lift hard.

>>37212290
mortality is set in stone, we all have 100% risk of mortality.
fuck those clickbait fatceptance articles

>clogged up arteries
>fucked up knees
>can't walk more than 10feet to the next mobility scooter
>RR of 180/100 while relaxing
>diabeetus
>lol we're healthy tho a single study said so and I'll disregard everything that feels bad and the fact that statistics show otherwise or what every other study in this regard says because they don't support my beliefs.

fatties are worse than ISIS

>>37212290
Old news, but sure to get a rise out of /fat/.

tl;dr:
>Skinny = unhealthy
>Normal = ok
>Bit chubby = best
>Obese = unhealthy

>>37212314
You realize where you are, right?

>>37212462


Pretty much this, except you can also just be muscly and have a bit of fat to counteract any daily/chronic stressors that would otherwise fuck up a skinny person.

Fatties still unhealthy.

>>37212439
>fatties are worse than ISIS
Histrionic /fat/ is best /fat/ :D

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>>37212297
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1550413114000655

>Low-protein, high-carbohydrate diets are associated with the longest lifespans

>However, diets with low protein:carbohydrate ratios were also associated with some characteristics usually considered to be associated with poorer health outcomes, such as increased body fat with reduced body lean (Figure 5B) and fatty liver (Figure S5). These paradoxical results are consistent with some human epidemiological studies that indicate that in old age there is a diminution, or even reversal, of the association between these risk factors and outcomes such as remaining life expectancy (Le Couteur and Simpson, 2011).

>>37212290
>>37212313
This is a perfect response honestly. If you guys are gonna say you're lifting for health you're blowing smoke up my ass. We don't want to be fat because it's fucking disgusting. I want to be able to play with my kids and not look like absolute shit. I want to wipe my ass like a functional human being, and run, and swim, and ride a bike. Even if you're right, I'd rather die a sick cunt than a fucking fat lard.

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>>37212549
wew lad, rationalizing this hard.

>>37212583
I would bet my life savings that you're a fat fuck who is doing the very thing you accuse me of doing right now, rationalizing your shitty choices and looking for approval from a Taiwanese paper mache forum.

>>37212583
Isn't he correct, though? Being fat is disgusting, seeing yourself in a mirror when your body is covered in a thick layer of fat is disgusting.
If you see a kid that isn't fat himself, but has fat parents, he is often ashamed in public. I don't want to be my kid ashamed of me because I couldn't put the fork down.

>Even if you're right, I'd rather die a sick cunt than a fucking fat lard.

Same. We are all gonna make it, brah.

>Not being over 25 BMI

DYEL

>>37212290

>uses BMI as a 'legitimate' health measure
gonna stop you right there, buddy.

>>37212290
Bullshit. You never see an obese octogenarian.

>>37212621
Means a lot m8. I'm just trying to be here for my family. My dad was a fat fuck and I never looked up to him, his body reflected his lifestyle. If my kids look up to the person I became through lifting then I have truly made it in my mind.

>>37212396
> not understanding peer reviews
> being this retarded

>>37212462
bearmode it is then

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>>37212290

It's worth noting at this point that Denmark has some of the lowest life-spans in the western world.

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>>37212644
26.75-27 bmi is obese?

>>37212660
Because it's population has lower bmi's than somewhere like america

>>37212667

Did you notice how Americans and Danish people both tend to die sooner than everyone else?

>>37212660
Is Russia really that low? Or is it just a mean with the amount of people that are located in RUssia? Where is India or China on this scale?

>>37212674

Of course Russia is that low. They're alcoholics with HIV. Russia is an extremely shitty country, for a lot of reasons.

>>37212665
Did you pay to see the full paper? I'd be interested in any graphs and charts included. My cheap ass university only pays for Jstore.

'Except for cancer mortality, the association of BMI with all-cause, cardiovascular, and other mortality was curvilinear (U-shaped). The BMI value that was associated with the lowest all-cause mortality was 23.7'

Isn't this saying apart from cancer the lowest mortality rate was seen in the 'healthy weight' part of BMI?

>>37212691
I thought this was interesting too. It's well noted that being overweight can significantly increase the risk of getting cancer. I get why they didn't include this variable, but I think it may have affected the study adversely.

>>37212691
Also shit totally missed your pint, yes 23.7 would be considered normal weight.
Have we been arguing about a study that doesn't even tell us anything we didn't already suspect?

>>37212691
>>37212700
>>37212711
>23.7
that was only for 1976-1978 cohort.

For 2003-2013 it was 27.0, which is slightly overweight.

It's pretty obvious that BMI would have a limited relevance to health (especially cardiovascular) health.
Heard a really skinny girl come off a hockey pitch saying 'I'm not built for cardio'. She would be considered 'healthy' if you considered just her appearance but the reality is she probably does relatively little fitness.

Ignoring the morbidly obese it's easily possible to reasonably healthy at higher weights, i.e. you can have visible fat below the skin but if you still do plenty of exercise you'll be okay and visa versa.

>>37212290
Why do asians live so long then?

>>37212739
honestly if you're a physically working healthy male you're almost bound to be overweight
having some decent leg and upper body muscle plus somewhere between 15 and 20 percent bodyfat is going to land you around 26 or 27 BMI

>>37212674
>Hong Kong
You fucking 'Murican scum learn some geography

BMI does correlate with health to a certain degree but there are so many far more important factors than weight. An overweight person who eats a lot of 'good food' and exercises regularly is going to be far healthier than someone at a 'healthy' weight who eats shit, smokes and does no exercise.

>>37212290
I would have liked to see this study taking the bodyfat percentage of the participants. Even if BMI is reliable for most people, there is potential for outliers that could in fact skew the data.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/obesity-study/

Studies like OP's have been BTFO repeatedly by a simple thing every person who knows just a little bit about research methodology: confounding variables. FA,proponents don't take these extremely important confounds into consideration. The study OP cited has the same fatal methodological flaws as all other "studies" before.

Tl;dr--fatties cannot into research methodology.

>>37212462
High test is the best

>>37212290
>b...b..but muh bmi isn't important
>uses study that uses bmi to justify obesity
>t...t..take that, fit people!

>>37212863
extremely valid points.

>>37212290
>ignores snokers in the group
>ignores people who are at a higher bmi due to high muscle mass
>doesn't control for people with eating disorders
Yeah, that study is your """"""proof"""""". Why do fatties keep citing shitty studies like this?

>>37212621
You have been programmed by the media to be ashamed if you are slightly overweight or "fat". It is not cool to be a landwhale, who has diffculty breathing while just sitting still.

I am talking about guys like you who get depressed when they can't see their abs, because the media told you seeing your abs means you are "healthy" and "strong", hopefully you already know that the opposite is true. Having fat around your midsection is good for you, makes you stable and actually stronger to carry your kid and play with them.

TLDR: I am not talking about being obese, if you don't have cuts and definition on your body doesnt make you unable to swim, dance, run or whatever else you want to do.

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>she will live forever
H I G H T E S T

>>37212549
>I'd rather die a sick cunt than a fucking fat lard.
Fuck yeah brah. We're all going to make it.

>>37212863
Surely you don't mean to say that one of the most prestigious ivy league schools in the world has a counter point to some random paki PhD about research methodology. There is no way that this one specific study meant to fuel OPs thread could possibly be inaccurate.

>>37212486

Reminder that froot and veg are carbs
Reminder that "protein" for these people means a 75/25 1/2 lb burger on a white bun with sugared ketchup and orange oily "cheese".

>>37212290
>implying most /fit/ people don't have the BMI of an obese people

>implying they didn't just throw /fit/ and fat people together

>>37212665
If you have to clarify how overweight then shouldn't the headline be that there is no increased risk of mortality in only the midly overweight? It's hella misleading.

I just finished listening to an interview with one of the people who conducted the study (ABC Radio National: The Health Report). To paraphrase, "We have discovered a correlation, but have yet to understand what it truly means. It may be related to us better managing the morbidity of people with a higher BMI than back in the 70s."

>>37212820
Wait, what? Hong Kong? That's like saying that Siberia is not part of Russia.. Hong Kong is a part of China but the study doesn't count it as a whole.

>>37212997
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/change-in-body-mass-index-(bmi)-associated-with-lowest-mortality/7417938

Here you go. Proper citation.

I'd rather die with the body of a god than live as a fucking whale

>>37212290
Pretty solidly explained in http://www.marksdailyapple.com/higher-bmi-and-mortality-risk-calories-when-meal-skipping-hiit-after-fasting/#axzz490aRDXya

tldr you have to account for smokers and those with chronic illness, both of which make people thinner and kill them

>>37213021
Who wants to live forever anyway? I'd rather live an amazing 60 years than a shit tier 90.

>>37213030
>cites a study that controls for common death factors in skinner people
>blows fatties TFO with better controls and methodology
Fatties will completely ignore this due to their confirmation biases.

>>37212549
>you're blowing smoke up my ass.
I'll blow something else up your ass ;)

>>37213074
>belieiving people who can't even get gf
lol

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>>37213104

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>>37213107
>believing people who can't lose weight

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>>37212396
>My BMI is 28 and BF15%, I just look thick.

>>37212863
>http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/obesity-study/
You cannot be serious. Is this what counts as science in America? Holy fucking shit.

>It is also noteworthy that the vast majority of the deaths in this study occurred among people who were aged 70 and older at the time their BMI was measured. Weight loss due to chronic disease and loss of muscle mass is common in the elderly, making it problematic to estimate excess mortality due to overweight and obesity. For example, overweight or obesity at age 45 may cause diabetes to develop at age 55, which can lead to a heart attack at age 65, heart failure and weight loss due to incapacity and muscle wasting at age 70, and finally death at age 75. If one looks only at the relationship between BMI and mortality starting at age 70, there would appear to be a link between underweight and mortality, when in fact the earlier overweight or obesity led to the death. Thus, guidelines for healthy weights are most reliable when based on BMI measures in persons younger than age 70 or 75.

Assumptions everywhere. You guys are really unable to admit you're wrong and to make it even funnier, YOU ARE THE FAT GUYS HERE. Invent some more "facts", please.

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>>37212411
>Posting Sergei Badyuk
Moy tovarish'!

>>37212987
Yeah, but that's not what people want to hear is it?
They want to be absolved of any responsibility for their own behaviour, and told they can do whatever they want without consequence.

>>37212290
>jama.jamanetwork.com

Sounds legit.

>>37213151

>athletic
>average bodytype
>frequent smoker
>athletic

ATHLETIC

>>37213469
>The Journal of the American Medical Association
>peer reviewed
>Started in the 19th century
>impact factor of over 35
But some guy on /fit/ thinks it isn't legit

In case anyone is interested in actually reading it, just paste the link to the study on http://sci-hub.cc/

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>>37212290
ITT delusional fatties justify looking like shit.

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Obesity still most deadly.

Interesting that there were ZERO underweight people in study.

Also As a tall person 18.6 or bottom end of normal weight would look skeletal on me. Perhaps the scale just needs to shift a few points as the average human gets taller?

>>37212290
Probably bad metodology. This norwegian study contradicts this by accounting for other factors: http://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/353/bmj.i2156.full.pdf
Also commented on by BMJ: http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i2433

>>37212680
op's link isn't the full paper?

>>37212290
>Further investigation is needed to understand the reason for this change and its implications.

I'm going to go ahead and conjecture that it's not because obesity is actually good for your long-term health.

For every aberrant study that seems to show a positive effect of BMI on longevity, there are 2 showing the opposite.

>>37212679
ukraine pls go

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>>37212290
They meant overweight, not 400lbs goddesses, OP.

>>37212290
Isn't Denmark's academia filled with SJWs and HAES activists?

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>>37212290

I've been saying the same thing for years.

There is no scientific consensus that being overweight causes more death. Sure, certain HABITS are deadly but not being fat itself.

>>37212290 proper nutrition and regular exercise will never be bad for you

>>37212646
Clearly you don't know what a peer review is considering that has nothing to do with what anyone's talking about.

But to go to valhalla one must die an honerable death, and that means not being a fat DL peice of shit

>>37213469
Dumbass

>>37212290
An interesting perspective that is missing from the article, though perhaps not the study, is the increase in health care for the overweight and obese which may contribute to overall reduction in mortality. This would be exaggerated further in a country with good socialized healthcare like Denmark. For example, overweight and obese people would be more likely to see a doctor more frequently, have more blood tests and more physical examinations, which could contribute to them receiving preventative and mediating health care that people with fewer obvious health risks may miss due to their reluctance to go to the doctor for a check up, and their infrequent visits for "cause".
Think of it this way; fatty goes to the doctor because of chest pains or joint pains or headaches or fatigue (all documented health problems for the overweight) and subsequently finds out she has cancer, or her kidneys are having problems, or her liver is in need of some work or care.
Meanwhile, a fit person with no symptoms of cancer has it for 8 months before any signs show up, and tries to tough it out for another 2-4 months before finally seeing a doctor a year later, when the cancer has advanced to an untreatable, or less treatable stage.

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>>37212290
I don't give a shit. I want to die anyways. My death drive is much more powerful than my will to live. I'll get to Valhalla

I'm reading the paper now. I'm an epidemiologist with a degree in biology and M.P.H. focused on Epi. So far what has caught my eye is that the paper adjusted for plasma cholesterol being a potential confounded, deciding that it is not included in the causal pathway between obesity and mortality, like diabetes. Does this seem strange to anyone, or is plasma cholesterol unrelated to obesity? I'm not a physician or nutritionist and I haven't gotten to searching for other papers yet.

>>37214503
Being fat causes those conditions that make mortality more likely. You are confusing causes.

>>37213534
>american science
>legit
pick one or none at all

>>37214704
So to translate
>If you take away what makes being fat bad, being fat isn't bad.
?

>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH TAKE THAT YOU FIT PEOPLE! A CORRELATION (WHICH I CONSTANTLY BITCH ABOUT WHEN A CORRELATION IS AGAINST ME)! WHO CARES ABOUT THE FATAL METHODOLOGICAL FLAWS THAT WOULD TEAR DOWN THE ENTIRE STUDY (ESPECIALLY HOW WE BITCH ABOUT BMI NOT BEING A VALID MEASURE!!) SO FUCK YOU SHITLORDS!!!

>>37214794
Kind of. They're trying to control for cofounders like smoking. If a fat person dies of cardiac disease it could be because they're fat or because of the smoking or both, so they adjust for those variables. In this paper, they adjusted for plasma cholesterol and history cardiac illness which both seem a little iffy to me. Other than that the methods are solid. I haven't fins über reading their interpreptaion of the results yet though.

>>37212290
From reading the abstract I can't come to the same conclusion as you, can you explain? What exactly do you mean by "overweight" in the study's context?

>>37212899
if you don't have definition in your body or any muscle mass from living a sedentary lifetsyle, running, swimming and dancing are going to be significantly more difficult. i won't even bother addressing the "fat on my stomach makes me more stable" comment kek

>>37215275
Read the study again until you get it. Americans...

>>37212680
No access via my Israeli alma mater either, and they've got pretty good subscriptions volume.

>>37212290
Overweight or obese, op? I'm overweight right now by maybe 20 pounds. What's is their definitely option of "overweight"?

>>37212863
JAMA/Impact factor: 35.289
Fuck off

>>37212373
>Slightly overweight , but cardiovascularly healthy old people recover from illness better than skinny old people, because they have stores to fall back on. This gives a mild protective effect. This is well documented as fuck.

bearmode confirmed for bestmode, i'll be in the buffet lads

>>37212290
DO NOT CONFUSE OVERWEIGHT WITH OBESE OR MORBIDLY OBESE

>>37212290
Yeah, this study demonstrates that the healthiest levels are from high healthy to borderline overweight, nor does the bmi distinguish fat from muscle so it's just as likely that the bmi measures more muscular people as less healthy than they actually are. There's nothing in this study that shows being a hamplanet is healthy, which is what HAES is advocating

>>37212486
lot of these scientific studies are useless. They don't take in other factors into consideration likes genetic which is very important. Take that mouse study for example. The mouse on the right you can see clearly built better due to genes. Naturally the quality car will last longer then the ghetto rigged one.

>Americans trying to science

IT'S CALLED OBESITY PARADOX AND IT IS NOTHING NEW YOU FUCKING NEWFAGS.

>>37212290
Being overweight doesnt cause you to die the things it causes makes you die.


>who knew

>>37215331
Did you read the study yourself? Post PDF.
Also, not an American, and have scientific background.

>>37214775
>Getting to the moon
>Your Country
Not referring of course to your moon like physique.

>>37215476
>Also, not an American, and have scientific background.
>Is unable to procure PDF of a new study
Yeah, Mr Cowboy. If you believe it, it may come true some day.

>>37214704
Obesity can raise cholesterol via hepatic inflammation and insulin resistance to my knowledge

>>37215552
OP's claim:
>there is no increased risk of mortality in overweight people
Is not supported in the abstract, and is open to interpretation.

Not going to continue this discussion, since obviously you are at best some dumb college student with zero research experience, and have nothing to contribute on the subject.

>>37215448
Those are genetically identical C57BL/6 mice and they used ~860 of them. Please stop talking about things you don't understand.

>>37215629
So if this is true, it would be innapropriate to control for plasma cholesterol because plasma cholesterol is in the causal pathway between obesity and mortality/morbidity. Other than that, the study looks sound. It takes into account many factors that previous studies have failed to do. It basically nullifies criticisms to many justifications for the obesity paradox. Its implications are of course still up for debate.

>>37215629
Obese people have more triglyceride and fatty acid turnover (but also generally replenish fat stores at a faster rate than they use them), leading to increased fat metabolism, and lipid deposits in the liver. Lipid content in the liver stimulates VLDL production to enable circulation of fatty acids to tissues for metabolism. Additionally, high serum free fatty acid content depresses insulin sensitivity to encourage lipid metabolism, and if total body lipid content remains high/increases, this shit show can spiral out of control and result in chronic disease.

So in short, you're right, and the above is part of the reason why.

>>37214557
He was saying this was only one stud,and more need to be done to verify it. Some autistic said that he didn't know science. Peer review is a retesting (more data points).

>>37212290
Thats not true, I study to become a physiotherapist and one thing they keep repreating is that being overweight is one of the leading causes of heart disease, stroke, type two diabetes, certain postoperative complications etc, the list goes on. Being fat is really bad for you. Stating anything else is fucking bullshit.

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>>37212290
DENMARK YES

at least Norway still remains on top, as the uncucked state of scandinavia

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>>37212290
Let's say that people who are heavily overweight live longer than normalweight people. Now let's take a common scenario for people who get old and are overweight: Their old "muscles" won't support their weight properly, they will have breathing problems, and their lives will generally be far more miserable.

But hey, longer time is always better, right?

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>>37216805
Laws of nature won't apply to you once you leave humanity behind

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>>37216636

Norway is full of muslims and you literally take refugees into your homes to fuck your wives. I mean literally.

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>>37212290
>http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2520627

You've misunderstood the study and drawn conclusions the study doesn't at all suggest.

Pic related

>>37217493
we shut the borders, americuck. The crisis has been contained and will be exterminated by the roots

and by roots i mean sending them over to Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-norway-tells-5500-foreigners-who-arrived-on-bikes-to-ride-back-across-the-border-to-a6812966.html

>>37212290
Sounds like a reason to go /fraud/. You can easily have an Overweight BMI and it's muscle instead of gross fat.

>>37212290
No mention whatsoever about controlling for tobacco use. Smokers have lower BMI because the nicotine suppresses their appetite.

B S
S

> The BMI value that was associated with the lowest all-cause mortality was 23.7 (95% CI, 23.4-24.3) in the 1976-1978 cohort, 24.6 (95% CI, 24.0-26.3) in the 1991-1994 cohort, and 27.0 (95% CI, 26.5-27.6) in the 2003-2013 cohort.

No, it's not HAES when you are fucking obese hamplanet size. The most optimal BMI is litterally between normal weight and high test/well built.

>>37217493
>daughter and wife look excited
>son and husband look defeated

NORGE JAA

>>37216636
>implying it's not Iceland

They are so uncucked they unbalanced into being inbred.

>>37217900
>daughter

http://www.thelocal.no/20150625/norway-to-let-7-yr-old-change-gender

>>37217861
Not to mention that fatties are less likely to go outside and do dangerous physical activites

>>37217919
>iceland
>scandinavia

wew

>>37213242

>Human life can be boiled down to simple generalizations
>We can stop researching everything guys context means nothing!

>>37212290

It's not about living longer. It's about living better.

Also these people get to live longer because the healthcare system allows it.

>>37215365
>M...M...MUH IMPACT FACTOR
Which is so easily abused to make a specific article look good when it has fatal methodologicsl flaws.

>>37213242
But that's a pretty valid point

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Obviously they're eating the thin people.

>>37218159
>>37218741
>Hey, they may be right, but WHAT ABOUT MY COMPLETELY BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS?
>"Hey, it's a valid point."

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=23259493451718093825

Link to the full article

A few highlights:
>Diabetes, hypertension, and history of cardiovascular disease were deliberately excluded as potential confounders as they would act in the causal pathway between obesity and mortality
So actual causes of death related to obesity were systematically removed. Why? That's bias there. This study is not on a good start.

>Among those who died, the median
age at death was 77 years in the 1976-1978 cohort, 81 years in the 1991-1994 cohort, and 79 years in the 2003-2013 cohort
In other words, many lived a really long time.

>There was a nonlinear association of BMIwith all-cause mortality in all 3 cohorts as both high and low BMI were associated with high all-cause mortality.
Translated; Extremes are bad. Find that middle ground. If you look at the graphs, you'll find that the more overweight, the worse it is. Also, most of the underweight deaths had a very low BMI.

>TheBMIassociatedwiththe lowest all-cause mortalitywas 23.7 (95% CI, 23.4-24.3) in 1976-1978, 24.6 (95% CI, 24.0-
26.3) in 1991-1994, and 27.0 (95%CI, 26.5-27.6) in 2003-2013 (Figure 1)
Overweight has gone up, but that's to be expected in age as the body metabolic rate goes down while food consumption stays the same.

>Analyses restricted to never-smokerswithout a history of cardiovascular disease or cancer showed different patterns in the 3 time periods, from an almost linearly increasing risk of allcause mortality with increasing BMI in the 1976-1978 cohort to a U-shaped pattern in the 2003-2013 cohort
Non-smokers who had an increased BMI had significantly higher death rates over time.

I don't think I need to highlight more. Basically, don't be any extreme. Being a skeleton or obese is bad as it is associated with higher mortality. HAES fuckers who cite this study as justification are fucking idiots who don't know anything about research methodology.

>>37212313
This guy gets it.

>>37219518
too bad the fat agenda will pick it up exactly like that

>>37219518
>median
I don't think median is a good measure of central tendency in this case. Using mean would be a lot better.

>>37212922

>>37213242

>>37219824
Using mean vs median depends on the data. If they're using median, then there's a good chance there were quite a bit of extreme outliers. Using mean in the case with many outliers would skew the data and give a bad interpretation to the data. Median is better used to see central tendency if there are extreme outliers.