pseudo-ascetism, ironic ugliness and loser-chic

Cool beans

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>>11120525
Interesting premise for a thread and I hope it spawns a nice discussion. good luck, opie.

>>11120525
"unhealthy" "lazy" and "unkempt" fashion is almost as old as the fashion industry imo. 80's punks, 60's hippies, 30's flappers... back in the renaissance people wanted to look fat and pale. Whatever. There's still lots of people out there who look good because they look healthy and well maintained. Only people who are dressing to get laid worry about looking like everybody else who's trendy. If you're interested in fashion because of aesthetic ideals (which you obviously hold) you should only be worried about wearing whatever the fuck you like to wear.

>>11120525
Fair arguments. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that the presence of black trenchcoats and muted colors is reflective of laziness, though - there's a decent argument to be made that it has to do with versatility and demand. Bright colors can be hard to match, whereas blacks and neutrals tend to be kinda easy to pair with other articles of clothing.

I do agree, though, that most people's fashion has gotten pretty lazy.

>>11120600
I'm worried about the fact that people make themselves look worse than they could look. I'd like to see more attractive people.

And obviously i'm not talking about actually lazy or self-destructive or unkempt people, i'm talking about fashion that's designed specifically to appear that way.
>>11120601
Laziness is just one aspect of it. I would use the word "edgy" if it didn't have so many connotations but there's this nebulous aesthetic ideal of a guy/girl who had a really stern and rough life and reflects it in his/her appearance.

Sometimes it's done by looking like you don't give a shit about anything, sometimes by looking somewhat unhealthy and gloomy, sometimes it's done by looking rugged and hard and tough, or by looking aloof and eccentric.

>>11120631
Ahh, I'm picking up what you're putting down. I'd definitely agree, then.

It kinda reminds me of how superhero movies are all ~dark and edgy and real~. It's like the whole goddamn Western culture expects everything to be gritty.

>>11120641
That's just one aspect of it but yes.

But it's something very general that translates into very subtle things, not necessarily outwardly dark ones. For example, a girl will have to look somewhat underdeveloped and unfit to be considered cute. That's kind of a dark thing when you think about it because it implies that unhealthiness is attractive, but it's not "advertised" as such.

>>11120631
The problem is, there is a very close relationship between this, and the way most slobs dress, and If you try to hard to distance yourself from slobs, you lose the whole aesthetic.

>>11120525
what do you think looks good little larry?

Should you highlight your body or muscles or something?

I'm sure its morphed away from that now, but the 'grunge' type aesthetic was based upon a principled rejection of that. I twas a concious fashion decision which goes deeper than simply how objectively good something looks/fits, and was more about making a subtle statement about what your values are.

>>11120631
>but there's this nebulous aesthetic ideal of a guy/girl who had a really stern and rough life and reflects it in his/her appearance.
>Sometimes it's done by looking like you don't give a shit about anything, sometimes by looking somewhat unhealthy and gloomy, sometimes it's done by looking rugged and hard and tough, or by looking aloof and eccentric

In my opinion, saying this kind of ignores the actual purpose of fashion. Yes, this is the idea people have. But the cornerstone underpinning 'fashion' is in essence the attempt to give off a certain vibe that you want to give off because you think it reflects you/carries connotations of things you agree with or whatever

>>11120693
>>11120701
Yes, that's how things are supposed to work, but I find it a little ridiculous to assume that everyone is consciously trying to look like they "went through some shit, man."

As for what I find attractive, it varies a lot, and I totally get the appeal of an edgier aesthetic, which I usually fall back on because nothing else works for me.

But let's just say that I'm a little sad that you can't pull off the surfer look anymore without having to sour it with a militaristic haircut or semi-ironic t-shirts, or that you can't just put on a comfy sweater for the winter without wearing skinny jeans along with them.

As for girls I'm heavily biased towards 80s fashion so it'd be a little far-fetched to just list what I like about it.

>>11120641

but this is surely par for the course for any mass-art

people have to find a way of distinguishing themselves, people find a way of persuading themselves that what is ugly is beautiful because it is advantageous to them to do so. it's 'boring' to note that a flower looks attractive but it's a statement to think that slavcore is actually aesthetically pleasing.

this is turning round now of course, but it'll come back again. with the rise of trump, expect to see a return to 80s style simplicity if not victorian sincerity

>>11121369

for example the 00s was pretty clean cut

of course i think a lot of the problem is that people are even trying to act as if 'looks' indicative of certain lifestyles are things you can reasonable vary between. e.g. 'today i'll try a surfer look, tomorrow i'll go back to darth vader.' there's something sick in that, i think. this isn't meant as a pretentious call out to 'fakers' but that I suppose there's this universal delusion, whereapon we try to pretend dressing like darth vader isn't as ridiculous as it actually is (when you aren't darth vader,) it's like everyone is larping all the time and we've all agreed to just pretend we aren't (probably as we keep being told investing in different consumer trends is the way out of the gaping hole in our heart)

idk if i'm making sense here - but say, in the 80s, you consumed conspicously. your fridge said something about now. now dont just larp micro elements of their lives but larp everything. 'maybe i'll do a masters.' 'maybe i'll go travelling.' 'maybe i'll move to new york.'

>>11120525
hello /fit/
still pissed off that sally won't date you? blaming it on clothes now? or 'wymyn not knowing what they want'?

You're an autistic uggo, ain't no muscles gonna fix that. Please stop shitting up my board, kthx.

>>11121391

you sort of...adopt the totality of whatever it is you are currently doing. which maybe is why *every single look* has to be ironic, or at least defensible from an ironic point of view. you wear all black and obsess over basics as it's always defensible. if you're larping as a surfer, and aren't a surfer, you always fear realtiy intruding and someone calling you out - so you've got to add in that 'ironic' t-shirt or ridiculously large necklace just so everybody knows you aren't that serious (except when you are)

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>>11121399

kek at least OP had something to say

>>11120525
Good thread.
>>11120600
>back in renaissance people wanted to look fat and pale
Just want to point out that this is the complete opposite of what OP is saying. In those times, being fat and pale was a sign of wealth (being able to eat more food than necessary) and status (pale because you didn't have to work outside plowing your masters field.)

Nothing to do with wanting to look slovenly or like you've been dealt a bad hand

>>11121455
To follow this... Now that we generally live in post scarcity societies there's more of a desire to appear hardworking than there is to appear priveleged.

Anyone can be fat and pale now.
It's much more impressive to be in shape and stocked up on vitamin D

I think it's easier for most people to look unhealthy, and unkempt then to look fit and healthy. So western culture has glamorized this messy, unhealthy look because it's easier to wear when you're constantly working or studying. No one has time to look super fit like in the 80's when fitness was so popular. So now the fit aesthetic is dead and minimalism chic is in, until another culture shift happens.

>>11120525
yeah tru

>>11120525
western culture has devolved into meaningless indulgence. the spirit of fashion in my mind is to be somewhat against the zeitgeist, and in doing that, creating the zeitgeist.

So naturally fashion has glorified the malnourished in a society nearly bursting at saturation point, still idealizing exponential growth regardless. There are already counter-movements against this, conservation activists and nutritionist propaganda has been slowly working.

>>11121784
beginning to suspect i might've missed OP's point(?)

>>11120525
>glamorization of unhealthiness and laziness
>looking somewhat self-destructive or unkempt is mainstream
>recent trends can be boiled down to cosplaying some kind of down-trodden pariah or self-punishing ascete
>entire following paragraph

jesus this is overwhelming
I don't like faking shit

good thread

wish all of /fa/ was this insightful and level-headed