Energy Puzzle

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Some more pertinent info.

What is the hot water used for?

Electric boilers are a massive waste of electricity.

What kind of heat? Forced air? Radiant?

>>1205201
Electric boiler serves the bathroom (only one). I take cold showers, wife takes warm ones.

Also serves the kitchen, but we wash our dishes by hand in luke warm water.

It's brand new, and much more efficient than our previous one. Had it installed in March, didn't see a difference in energy use.

>>1205211
It's an ancient gravity furnace, no moving parts, gas fueled. I'd like to replace it at some point, but most of the quotes I was getting were coming in at 15k or more.

>>1205201
>>1205230

Also the washer I suppose, but we only wash our clothes in cold water, and tumble on low heat. Maybe two-three loads a week.

Does the electric boiler run all the time or is it on demand (instantaneous)

>>1205237
It's tanked, so it runs when it needs to keep the overall temperature of the water up.

Wanted to go tankless, but they would have had to run a gas line which made it a whole lot more expensive.

I guess the place I get confused is that the chart says we're using more than the average person uses, but to me, nothing we seem to be doing would be the cause of that.

It's possible that everybody else is using less than us, but based on the way most people live, it seems like we use our electricity fairly conservatively.

>>1205238
peculiar

I'll look up mine. Both domestic and three phase business. Suns almost up so I'll get them in a couple hours.

we have electric showers and instant water heaters for isolated taps.

also electric heating in another building.

you are using slightly more than the french average (6400 units per year)

uk 4600
us 11700

you aren't doing too bad at 7200 units per year. But i cant really quantify it.

might be worth getting a energy metre that you can connect to your metre tails.

you can measure loads in your house and turn off the devices in your consumer unit to see where the power is being used.

you can slowly identify a possible fault.

old heater
bad socket

can even be things like old style light bulbs or faulty equipment.

ill do some research on equipment in older building to see if they use fair amounts of power.

>>1205157
How is your meter read? This is a long shot, but in parts of the States they are allowed to estimate x times in a row, usually six or less though, before they do a physical reading. I don't think they're trying to pull shit on people, but I've seen it happen where people don't have to pay for a month because of it. Also, have the electric company check your meter.

>>1205270
Good question! I sent and email out to the power company to get their take, perhaps that's the issue.

>>1205246
Great call on these, I'm looking at the Sense and Eyedro right now. I really like being able to see real-time energy use.

>>1205245
It's baffling how much energy most Americans use daily.

>>1205567
Nice, a little puzzle to solve! We had a Wattcher in our student house. It was a really nice challenge to find out what was using our energy, which was relatively easy because it gave updates about every 5 seconds. It worked by detecting the led which lights up at our meter.

Long story short, we found out that our largest consumers were the fridges and freezers. We had a lot of them and all of them were really old. You could just get a plug in power meter, they are much, MUCH, cheaper but only enable you to measure things of which you can access the plug.

Could you find out what the age of your cooling equipment is and maybe their rating on basis of model numbers?

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>>1205585
That's certainly a possibility, and might be the way to go before investing $300+ on a whole house energy reader. Given that we don't have that many things plugged in to start with, it might be handy.

The fridge is pretty ancient, it came with the house. It doesn't look like they even make them anymore.

Picture is the same one, but not mine.

Y u live in Georgia op? I use efergy.

>>1205829
I don't live in Georgia... the state or the country.

>>1205585
>fridges and freezers
I could have told you that for free.

Biggest power users : heating, compressors (fridge, freezer) and water heaters. Everything else is noise.

>>1205157
>>1205211
OP the only way to solve the puzzle is with a clamp on meter. Preferably one with logging.

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>>1205854
Is the clamp on meter something like Sense?

>>1205857
Yes, a clamp for each leg. Take,breaker face plate off, clamp, read. Need to do it for 2 weeks to get a baseline.

>ooold house

Are you hooking up to the old Knob & Tube wiring? Or modern 12-2?

That might add resistance.

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Get one of these energy monitors.

You can see current usage and it keeps a log.

>>1205949
Modern 12-2, although when they replaced it, they left all of the ceramic knobs in the basement and attic. It's kinda neat to see.

>>1205995
>ceramic knobs in the basement and attic

Tear them out if you ever sell. My girlfriend's parents were selling their cabin and the old knobs were still in place even though the wiring had been updated years ago. For some reason they freak people the fuck out. One couple put an offer in contingent that all knob and tube was removed, even though the realtor and inspector both said they are totally harmless since the wiring was removed. When he offered to remove them with a prybar, they freaked out and said a licensed electrician had to do it.

Not sure if they were legit retarded or trying to get a better price.

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>>1206047
After seeing some of the stuff I've seen in the home buying process, I'm going to go with legit.

That's good advice though, I'll pull before I sell.

A lot of people passed on this house due to the huge gravity furnace, I'll probably have to replace that as well before selling. The upside is that we'll get central air and AC, the downside is it costs something to the order of 15k.

I think I'm going to pull the trigger and get Sense this weekend, it's a bit of an investment but I'm really curious to see where the energy is going.

>>1205857
Sure. There's lots out there. I prefer flukes instead of those autistic millennial arduino things but they work. The more you have the faster this will be. The clamp only looks at current but you can assume constant voltage for your kw calculation.

You will have to methodically do all branches in the panel starting with the mains. Ensure enough time that whatever you have in your house has a chance to operate.

This way you will map your load flows and determine who's taking what. With this method, you'll figure it out.

Please post results.

Three-step energy cost reduction program:

#1 obtain cheapest POS plugin kill-o-watt/energy meter (and if World Gubmnets Etc REALLY wanted people be energy efficient, they'd give/lend these fuckers out free).
#2 Connect between wall outlet and 'ancient fridge that came with the house'
#3 say, 'Jesusfuck, this reading cannot be right..' check meter on other devices.
#4 realise it was indeed the fridge, drive consumption nightmare device to nearest high bridge, throw it off, unless cars/ships/people passing underneath.

maybe also the thermostat id fucked on the thing, and it runs more or less permanently, but, even at their best, old fridges are an environmental nightmare. People asking bout US-ROTW energy consumption, I'll guarantee, US walk-in fridges the size of Wal*Fucking*Mart are a major contributor.

>>1206138
Fridge is a great candidate but metering every branch will tell the truth.

>>1206140
>>1206138
>>1206129

Bit the bullet and grabbed a Sense. I took a look into flukes, they seemed to be pretty neat, but really darn expensive.

It's quite possible that the fridge is the issue, hopefully the Sense get's here quickly so I can start breaking it down.

I might grab a cheap kill-o-watt from the hardware store in the meantime just to start some analysis.

>>1206154
That kill o watt is only good off the plug. Would help when you wanna measure each device on a 120v branch. Be interesting to see how user friendly those devices are. Most of the interfaces I've seen for those things online would make me claw my eyes out when I wear a hard hat but they seem ok for home users.

Yes flukes are expensive but they are industry standard. Also they don't make me feel like a snowflake. You're probably never gonna do this again so it don't matter.

Godspeed OP. Please post results.

We're not really talking all that much power compared to his neighbors. What kind of light bulbs are you using and do you keep a light on all day/night?

>>1206164
Yeah, I normally don't go in for the "We're a cool startup automating your home in a cool way, check out our headquarters, we've got a pin ball machine and a bunch of beer, how cool are we!" kinda stuff.

The interface is pretty awful, my hope is since there's still a team actively working on it, they'll either release the API at some point or add more customization.

>>1206178
I'd say about 3/4 LEDs, and a handful of weird leftover light bulbs that were in the larger light fixtures when we moved in.

The thing that had me confused was the fact that we are pretty conservative with our energy, which means either our neighbors are SUPER conservative, or something's up somewhere in our appliances/wiring.

Lights are usually off. Wife teases me for brushing my teeth/showering in the bathroom without any lights on.

Ceiling fans on sometimes if it's hot, we don't have AC.

>>1205825
>>1205825
That actually quite looks like the combo we had for beer and snacks!

Is it set to arctic cold? We found out that a button which we thought was the on button was actually a extra super cold always on and consume incredible amounts of power button.

>>1206724
It's not up too high from what I can tell.

Got an email back from the energy company, it was a generic reply without any helpful info. Kind of just "use our website to see how much energy you're using!" without answering any questions.

What state are you in OP?

>>1207097
The great state of Minnesota.

They say that machine dishwashers save energy over hand washing too. I can certainly see how they would use less hot water.

>>1206154
You might as well go to lowes and get a cheap scratch and dent fridge for a few hundred

>>1206085
Yeah people are weird. I got my current house below market because no one wanted to deal with a house with knob and tube. Took of 8k for a contractor to do it. Did it all myself for under 1k.

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>>1205157
Seems pretty high OP.

>Two person household
>Gas for heat
>Gas Water Heater
>Don't unplug things because phantom power is mostly BS
>Electric Dryer
>Electric Range

>>1207640
My major power jumps for the past two months are dehumidifer in the basement and we stuck a window a/c unit in the bedroom this past month, only run it at night when it's hot.

>>1207305
How much energy does it take to make and ship a dishwasher?

I'll bet all your neighbors get a bar graph showing how they are above average too...

>>1207706
It could be, but I can look at total kwh used and see that it's already a lot higher than what we were using in our previous place.

>>1207640
See, this is what ours should look closer to, but ours stays close to the same usage from month to month and doesn't seem to change with season.

Sense should be here today, I'll install and take some pictures.

>>1207761

Around here there's a company affiliated with the power company that does home energy audits for free with the catch that they try to push energy efficient appliances on you. From your flat graph it appears you have shitty insulation and several appliances running continuously.

Easy first step turn off or unplug everything you know about and see if the meter is still showing a power draw old no thermostat heat tape for water lines draws surprising power.

>>1208640
Yes because the service meter readings tell you everything.

Energy Report #001

When this thread is dead, I'll move the updates to QTDDTOT threads, if people still care.

Got it installed pretty easily, took less than 20 minutes. Bought a 20 amp double-pole breaker for Sense to live on, and to my chagrin, found a 20 amp double-pole breaker behind the panel, on the floor of the box. So I've got an extra one now.

Base levels when everything is off is 33 watts. This holds pretty steady, it's an old house and we don't have a ton of electronics. The fridge kicks that up to about 200 when active.

Most lights in the house are LED, which use between 3 and 6 watts. The bathroom has a three light fixture (old bulbs), and that pulls close to 160 when on. I need to replace the lights in there with LEDs.

Wifes computer + fancy cintiq monitor pull about 300-500.

Huge spike of about 4,500, seems to be the hot water heater. I might have to turn that down, it seems to be kicking in more than it should.

>>1208993
Don't stop OP.

>>1208993
Great that you got it to work! Care to upload any pictures? I am really curious how often the fridge and water heater turn on. Especially the 4.5 kW water heater could very well be the electron munching bastard.

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Here's a screenshot. Kind of a bummer Sense doesn't have a computer based app yet, but I'm running a small Android environment for it to live in on the laptop.

Labeled some stuff for y'all. Sense hasn't detected any specific devices yet, but I've heard that can take a few weeks/months.

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Another piece of the puzzle fellow viewers.

Took a gander at the usage again later today, and noticed something odd. Around 4:30pm, weird spikes started up. They are usually around 440 watts, last for 4 minutes, turn off for 4 minutes, and then turn back on four 4 minutes. Over and over.

I didn't get home until 5:30, and the wife's usage was the same all day before that. We both left the house around 7, and turned everything off before hand. The weird jumps continued even though we were gone.

Any ideas?

>>1209499
any chance you have an programmable thermostat that is cycling the heater's blower motor on and off even though the hear is not in use? Mine has separate controls for ac/heat and fan... The 4:30 time frame and exact 4 min cycle regardless of ambient conditions seems to be something controlled by a clock.

>>1209501
We have an ancient gravity furnace, no moving parts.

>>1209499
It's a message from those Ancient Aliens

From reading on Sense's forum, it fails to identify some strange things, like electric car charging, and never manages to identify 100% accurately. It's an interesting idea, but I suspect the approach of monitoring at the feed-in has fundamental limits.

Maybe Sense will eventually tell you what your mystery power eater is, but you'll probably find it faster with good old fashioned detective work. Unplug, turn off breakers, etc.

>>1209514
That's the great mystery I suppose. It's an old house and we have next to nothing plugged in.

It's only been a few days, so I'm not expecting it to actually know what anything is yet. Mostly still enjoying seeing the usage in real time, even if it is a 3-5% off of what it really is.

I'll have to compare to my energy bill next month. In the mean time, I'll get back to turning things on and off.

>>1209518
Pull fuses in turn until you see the excess usage stop then at least you know what circuit it is on.

Could a neighbour be stealing power?

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>>1209522
You know, that's entirely possible.

That timing would correlate to somebody else coming home.

Now, if somebody was stealing power, they'd have to be plugged into the line somewhere downstream from the circuit breaker, right?

Took another screenshot, the periods of high use appear to be longer now, but still with about 4 minutes between.

>>1205825
Three biggest things, your fridge definitely is a large problem.

Second, do you have single or double pane windows?

Third, how old and what type of insulation do you have?

My guess is all three are contributing to the problem.


Bite the bullet and do some experiments. Most energy providers will show the daily usage. Compare a day or week you are gone with no heat and/or air conditioning. How does it compare?

Again if you are taking a long trip then empty the fridge and try the same thing, unplug it. See the daily or weekly difference compared to when it is plugged in.


Also, seconded..
>>1209522

>>1209569
>Most energy providers will show the daily usage.


If they dont then get a pen and paper and write down energy usage by hand from your meter outside the house.

>>1209569
It's summer and there's no AC according to OP. Unless they forgot about the AC?

Attic fan? The steadiness of the on/off is what I'd expect but I'd also think it would decrease as the night went on. Your graph seems to be pretty stable even 2 hours after sundown.

>>1207117
could be worse

>>1209524
What the actual fuck. I love this mystery whilst also being happy the problem isn't mine.

It seems like taking shorter showers would save you quite some kWh's each day, depends on your preferences if you think it would be worth it. You could just try for a couple of days and see if it makes a lot of difference. The ~400 W peaks could have been a cooling system such as a fridge or freezer, the fact that it only starts in the morning just baffles me. Do you use a coffee machine with a hot plate?

>>1209522
Cycling fuses would indeed be a great way to move ahead. If done in a period where the 400 W blocks occur, you could find it quite quickly I suppose.

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>>1209569
As fate would have it, Sense actually figured out the fridge last night. This means I'll be getting consistent data on it now. I did turn the coldness settings on it down a bit.

Single pane windows, but they're the really old storm windows from ancient times. They still have the wavy glass.

102 year old insulation, not sure what type. The walls are plaster and lathe.

Right now we're in the summer here, we don't heat or cool the house at all. We don't have AC and the heater is only on during the cold months. We just leave the windows open or use fans.

>>1209572
Correct, no AC or heat currently.

>>1209593
No fans in the attic, just cellulose, bats and probably some asbestos.

>>1209604
I've lived in CA, GA, VT, CO, WA and MN so far. MN is my favorite if you also consider cost of living.

>>1209673
Cycling fuses can help, but unfortunately the way they wired the house, it can be kind of hard to tell what objects are on what fuse.

Here's something interesting.

Our shed/garage doesn't have dedicated power, just two super heavy duty extension cables. They run from under the deck, along the fence and out to the garage. They also power the motion lights in the back.

Unplugged them last night, mystery suck suddenly stopped...

>>1209735
Motion lights gone wonky? Someone living under your shed?