how to explain pic vs arduino

something to do with cost

>>1187120
This is going to sound harsh, apologies in advance.
Nobody gives a fuck about your gimpy battery tester.
Nobody in the company needs it, is interested in it, will ever use it.
The entire purpose of you making this is to make sure you know enough to work on other projects. That's my assumption.
If you build it using things nobody in the company uses, has ever used, will ever use, has tested in production, then it doesn't prove your competence, it doesn't show you can work in their team or on their projects.

Many people think of arduino is for babyish retards and art students. That is obviously true but its not the reason your boss is telling you to avoid it.

Any time you introduce something new to a project there are problems, errata that people aren't aware of, teething problems people should have foreseen but inevitably didn't. Tldr it costs money and resources.

Tried tested and true. That's the way forward. Prove you are flexible enough to work something new then once you gain trust you can innovate.

>>1187142
wouldn't developing time cost more than the ic itself?

>>1187144
The battery tester is used for QC'ing Purposes, so internal use only. The current method of testing them takes up about 8 minutes of testing, while automating it can take <1 minute (hopefully 30 seconds)
The benefit of is reducing development time, not necessarily product cost.

>>1187144
>Many people think of arduino is for babyish retards and art students.

I don't know much about arduinos but AVRs are excellent for what they do. My biggest gripe about arduinos is that they thought normies would be frightened by code or programs, so they actually call the code "sketches" and the directory is called a fucking sketchbook. Jesus fucking christ.

>>1187120

Did they hire you to change the way they do things or did they hire you to fit in and do what you are asked? Maybe after you have been there for more than a week you can start "fixing" all their mistakes. If I had hired you I would be about ready to fire you.

>>1187168
They hired me for R&D for some Kiosk bull shit, but they also make other products. I conform pretty well, but I guess I'm showing them there is more than one way to skin a cat.
I've been here for about a year now.

>>1187148
Maybe they're using pic already and have all the tools for it.

>>1187144
>Many people think of arduino is for babyish retards and art students.
Usually told by old grandpas that are very scared that they have to learn something new or lose their job. If it does the job, who the fuck cares.

>>1187168

The Arduino IDE is literally just notepad with a Compile button and some board presets. But they call the programs "sketches", and that's for BABIES. You don't wanna be a BABY do you?

No, you wanna be a MAN, and a real MAN uses the other thing.

>>1187178
> If it does the job, who the fuck cares.

Spoken like someone without a fucking job.
Open up your VCR deck, how many fucking arduinos do you see in there? You expecting a fucking RasPi?

>>1187195
who the fuck uses VCR's?

Answer is simple. You would want a PIC because that's as low as you can get to have fine grained control over your, whatever system your're developing.

Arduino on the other hand is pretty much higher level than programming in those low level stuff. Get your hands dirty by touching the low level stuff OP. It makes you feel great, even.

>>1187195
>VCR deck
Retire already. Goddamn.

>>1187209
for sure.

>>1187144
>Many people think of arduino is for babyish retards and art students.

Uhhhh...
>work for multinational, multi billion dollar a year revenue company
>use Arduino all the time for prototyping and proof of concept

Yeah, you don't know shit. I offered to make a prototyping board similar to Arduino using other chips and my department said "that's not necessary, we have everything we need in that package." Maybe you're the babish retarded art student?

>>1187148
>wouldn't developing time cost more than the ic itself?
bare bones pic you can get for <$1, same with avr for the record.
development time for something simple on a PIC can be the same as an arduino if you write it in C (XC8 etc is a free C compiler for MPLAB for PIC) or actually faster if you have the bare minimum understanding of ASM and its a simple task (no virtual parallelism or task management or shit like that) because you don't have to bullshit about with all the abstraction if you know how to handle it.

>>1187168
>arduinos but AVRs
i have absolutely no argument either way except i hear lots of shit about how AVR has a much larger instruction set then PICs which is complete crap, large amount of extra instructions are just over specified general instructions. i can't remeber the specifics but i remember being annoyed by this at the time i checked it out.
arduino is just a bare bones 'ide' interface for some compiler and a bootloader probably? on the AVR i think.

>>1187178
electronic engineering is not the same as skim reading an instructable, connecting two breakout boards together with preformed connectors and copy-pasting some code that does nothing but import hardware specific objects from libraries written by people in san francisco with more hair dye and facial piercings than... i'm going off track now...

>>1187209
>Arduino on the other hand is pretty much higher level
you can do okay inside arduino, the real problem is importing libraries left right and center and then just gluing it all together.
can't you insert native asm into arduino 'c' like you can in pic c? i like writing asm but there are some projects I just don't have time or admittedly patience for staying down there.

>>1187267
why would you make a prototype in a completely different platform than your target? seems pretty retarded.
I have used arduino to glue together some temporary things in the past. I don't have a problem with it i'm just being honest about the perception.

>>1187195

Agreed. There's no arduinos to be found inside my victrola.

The idea was to just pretty much make a multimeter and apply a load test to test the batteries. I figured since all the testing fixtures the company used use uno's, why not something similar.
my idea was to just use a simple ADC and an LCD, to display the readings.
I dont see why using an arduino based ic would be terrible at doing this.

>>1187120
Ideally you should be able to use whatever suits your application, taking into account cost (some cents per unit can add up to a huge amount) and what you already have to work with.
Probably the software engineer is an old fart who doesn't likes changes, if he has worked all his life with PIC he probably has aquired a good amount of practice and knowledge, and using another brand would mean a lot of unnecessary work for him when he can do the same with the PIC equivalent. Normally when you learn something that works you stick to it, specially if not doing so involves a lot of work for little to no improvement or benefit.

Now, what you can't do is to use the Arduino IDE to program a uc that will be in a commercial product, Arduino is quite high level, functions are not optimized and are generalized in order to be idiot proof. When you are making a product you have to go through all the code to make sure it's up to spec, it's unprofessional to rely on generalized functions and libraries created by a random dude which you haven't bothered to check and which might cause errors in the future.

You can use it to prototype things without spending hours and hours tryig to get the code perfectly right, but when it comes to the real thing you should get everything right, and that means a low level language.

I have no idea what I'm talking about though, so I might be wrong, but I see no other reasons why he won't allow you to use AVRs.

>>1187299

Use other uCs in the case where we can't get Atmels anymore or the price is ridiculous.

>>1187325
>Now, what you can't do is to use the Arduino IDE to program a uc that will be in a commercial product

Bull shit.

https://www.postscapes.com/forum/arduino/47-if-arduino-is-for-prototyping-how/when-do-you-make-the-actual-product/

You can even ship a product that has an actual Arduino in it, with other people's libraries, and it's still ok so long as the library creator(s) state so in their agreement. It's like you don't know shit and you're talking out of your ass.

>>1187168
Go back to /g/, Stallman.

>>1187338
>You can even ship a product that has an actual Arduino in it
The fact that you're able to doesn't means it's appropriate to do so. Sure thing, there will be always some idiot who, for example, wants to buy a clock with an arduino board inside with all the wires flapping in the breeze, but anybody knows that's wrong for many reasons, the main ones being cost and quality.
It's like buying two motorcycles, strapping them together and calling it a car, you loose money by adding intermediaries and your product will look (and probably perform) like shit (unless you can hide it, like vid related) because it was made using products which have been designed for other non-specific purposes. It's just stupid spending $30 on an arduino board compared to getting a bulk price for the uc and components and making your own pcbs and stuff. You'll be loosing huge amounts of money, even if you are planning to sell half a dozen products.

With that logic you end with monstrosities like this.
https://youtu.be/2o8MDCIlOEk

>>1187350
>$30 for an arduino board

If you buy official ones. I have bought 3 official boards that I use for prototyping and programming stand alone uCs. For my own projects or anything that I sell I buy a knock off for about $3 a board. I can't make my own board for that price, even discounting my time completely.

For my company's commercial products we use it as a prototyping medium and after we have proof of concept we design our own boards typically with some sort of Atmel controller base.

>>1187353
I also have lots of cheap arduino knock offs sitting around as well as a variety of AVR smd chips, but I wouldn't trust my company to $3 chinese arduinos, knowing they are even capable of faking ICs and other complex components, I'd rather go through the painstaking work of having to design a circuit, select components... than to use a board which I don't know if it'll last 10 years or 10 days, specially if I have to conduct a reliability study on it anyway.
Reliability and predictive maintenance is a big thing nowadays, here in Europe there are all kinds of certifications on the matter, lots of studies and testing to get them. It seems unthinkable to me to see such a manufacturing approach being taken seriously. But hey, as long as there are people willing to buy it, who am I to judge them?

Btw, what kind of products does your company makes?

>>1187366
My company makes control and monitoring equipment for the power industry. We don't use $3 boards in our components, but I do with stuff that I make. I haven't run into a problem yet, but that's the nature of buying shit from China is that you never know what you're going to get.

>>1187353
>hey boss, instead of the usual $.50 uC we use in all the projects why don't we use a $30 arduino that is on it's own pcb that we have to connect to out board, and if $30 is too expensive we can buy knockoffs from ebay directly from fucking china with no guarantee or chain/traceability and build our products with that instead? we just have to distribute these 30 different license agreements from the open source libraries i used to blink an led on and off.

i just don't understand why more people aren't doing this.

>>1187381
My autism prevents me from telling if you're joking or not.

>>1187382
there is a big difference between being autistic and thick as shit

>>1187386
>not being able to tell if you're being sarcastic because I have heard people, no fucking joke, suggest such a thing

Sorry man, it's really hard to tell if someone is just fucking around or if they're actually that retarded. I've seen these people, they live among us.

>>1187181
>No, you wanna be a MAN, and a real MAN uses the other thing.
so... vim with compilation from terminal?

>>1187299
>can't you insert native asm into arduino 'c' like you can in pic c?

Atmel Studio supports inline assembly, so, yes.

>>1187209
that sounds like wasting your time with stuff that will barely make any difference in the final product. you don't and shouldn't need asm to make a good battery tester.

Op here. To clear things up. Only about 5 units will be produced. I will be using a pcb I designed using an atmega32u4, not an arduino dev board. I'm paying $5 an IC, and a few more dollars for supporting circuitry. This product will not be for external use, internal use only.
There should be nothing wrong with this.

>>1187560
I think the whole point of this project is to ensure you can work on and help develop boards the company already uses. If you want to help them switch over to something more modern in the future then fine, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the company using PIC at the moment, assuming that what anon said about the price is true. Also isn't an ATMega a little overboard? Surely a battery tester could use an ATTiny instead, though you'd probably not be able to use your comfy Arduino environment.

>>1187120
So, you're the new hire at PolyPlus?
Yeah, just use the shit off the shelves to show you're a flexible team player and not an autistic engineering bitch like the last guy.

To reiterate all of the good advice from this thread:
PIC and AVR are basically the same
Your boss is shit testing you to make sure you are competent enough to develop on *anything*. Just make it with a PIC. It's a simple enough project for it to be a good intro to whatever the dev process looks like.

Nothing is wrong with arduino. There will be times that development time is important.
Don't trust the library? Audit it. Not like anything that's available for free is more than simple util functions anyway. Library functions too slow? Rewrite a faster implementation.

If you care about speed, you'd be using plain C anyway. At that point it doesn't matter what you use.

Also, AVR and PIC a shit, ARM is the future.

>>1187575
For the record, the arduino *ecosystem* is great. Where people fuck up is using the arduino IDE. That IDE is pure shit. Use the arduino libraries with a proper IDE and you're golden.

>>1187381
You really are retard who doesn't know shit about arduino, aren't you.

>>1187610
Not him, but I can only see people using the arduino ide and functions (and even worse, entire arduino boards) when they're making a prototype, in a rush, or simply do not have the experience to make it better.
Sure, maybe making an oversized, unoptimized and inefficient program might not be an inconvenient in most cases nowadays, but when the production run is huge and you try to squeeze every penny then it matters.

>>1187447
You use Atmel Studio with low level programming, the difference in size and performance between that and a program made with arduino functions and IDE is at least one order of magnitude, and it can save yor company lots of money by cramming your programs in smaller and more inexpensive ucs that will perform as good. If you have to make 1000 units, a 10 cent difference translates into $100 saved.

arduino was a nice step into the world of mcu's. eventually when i moved it to a breadboard and i realized i could use any mcu, smaller or larger as the project required, it didnt make sense to use it for everything, even if it was prototyping.

take that as you will.

>>1187144
>arduino is for babyish retards
So is saving time and money amiright.
Seriously they are great for rapid development. We stock up rassberry pis and arduinos. If its a one off we just leave it in place. If its something we need a bunch of, we usually order custom pcbs and use PICs, mainly because they are tiny. For OPs problem its probably the easiest, cheapest, and quickest solution.
>the entire purpose of you making this is to make sure you know enough to work on other projects.
This is most likely the case and if OPs boss wants him to use a PIC he should use a PIC.

arduino is a broad purpose board
for a specific project you use a specific board

>>1187568
No. A start up

File: Capture+_2017-05-24-07-55-02.png (158KB, 341x309px) Image search: [Google]

158KB, 341x309px

>>1187267
Hmu when someone hits the reset pin on your life support, because the entire thing was ran off of the Arduino Ohno

>>1187683
>not understanding proof of concept
>not understanding prototyping
>being this retarded
>"hey guys I was only pretending!"

pics are cheaper on the lowest end, and on the higher end you can get neat things like built in op amps that cut complexity. there's a reason microchip bought atmel and not the other way around. ofc mc has a bigger catalog outside ucs but still.

Don't get me wrong, but Arduino is for hobbies, not for industrial stuff

If you go to a job interview where they program with PLC and you say you want to use Arduino they are going to kick you out almost immediately.

Autism aside, arduinos and pics are kind of capable of doing the same thing, except arduino should only be used for prototyping, school projects and such. Nothing wrong with it, same logic as any other microcontroller except that you don't need a programmer or a timer circuit.
As far as pic or avr, now those are, and functionality wise, literal sameshit, just use whatever your company prefers.

>>1187789
at least I wouldn't make anything security related with it
it would make those stupid hacking scenes in movies a reality

>>1187560
This is an opportunity to pick up some new skills. To interact with a microcontroller at a lower level. Arduinos are not really used in industry. If you use an Arduino you won't learn anything that will be helpful to you in the future.

This software engineer might be a bit of a snob in his reasoning, but it is still a good idea to take his advice and use a pic.

>ctrl-f
>"msp430"
>0 of 0

all the cool kids are doing it.

>>1187560
>pcb I designed using an atmega32u4
then why use arduino at all?
does arduino IDE supprt tabs/spaces inline with your company stule guide?
does it support/integrate/play well with revision control systems currently in place?
blah blah other things too probably.

>>1187576
>*ecosystem*
i have to disagree i'm sorry. i much prefer abrasive and rude cultures because it forces you to actually go and learn things instead of being spoonfed diarrhoea.
people say ubuntu has a good ecosystem but i saw a post on the forums where some guy posted a command where the computer had told him 'this command doesn't work now, do xyz instead' and he asked what to do and the first reply was 'do xyz' and he was like ok thanks wow that worked.
thats the kind of people i think of when you talk about arduino too.

>>1187673
>we rapid develop in arduino then rewrite for pic
...wow sounds really rapid!
still waiting on someone to explain how plugging in an arduino is any quicker than programming a pic? because the truth is it isn't. even without a dev board.

>>1187698
i dunno man you know they make PLC targeted arduino boards, you can buy them in DIN rail mount housings and everything!

>>1187789
completely incorrect, the arduino framework makes impossible a small number of peripheral setups that can be achieved through a large amount of ballache on bare metal avr. i'm sure pwm is one of them, some shit like that you know all timers and that.

You ain't got a fave PIC you ain't shit.

12F629 is my baby, use it for everything.

>>1187816
18f2550. wrote a usb stack last year. no idea how it works now.

>>1187825
>no idea how it works now.

standard programming procedure.

>>1187816
16f177x

built-in modular switcher control loop that can be configured to do most things

>>1187698
>If you go to a job interview where they program with PLC and you say you want to use Arduino they are going to kick you out almost immediately.

GM, Boeing, Tesla and Toyota all use arduino extensively in development of propulsion testing equipment. It's pretty widespread my dude.

A great deal of off the shelf PLC is simply ladder logic. Siemens S7 is all dumb shit ladder logic called STEP, only their highest end CPU 1518 is using C/C++.


tesla uses them for assembly tooling, where advanced vision systems are moved by a stepper motor on a custom track and read an encoder and talk to the robot, and the vision system as well as the PLCs running the industrial type robots.

in fact industrial automation and robots is just about the only place where arduino isn't used, specifically because they aren't hardened against environmental interference without making custom boards and enclosures.

You sound like a robot setter, or a controls technician. dont worry, just because it's too high level for you to understand, we wont shitcan you anytime soon. Dumb PLCs will always have a place on the floor.

Development labs will move on to whatever gets the job done best and fastest.

>>1187560
Are you programming it too? If so then I dunno why anyone would object. Some people are just set in their ways. Microchip owns Atmel now anyway.

I guess you Haven't Lived until you've written your low-tech product in PIC ASM, but these days I just pull out the Ardy or STM32.

>>1187680
PolyPlus will crush your inept band of startup dweebs.

>>1187961
Companies generally want team players, not soloing autists. Part of the reason is that if one particular guy leaves/is busy/whatever, someone else can handle his job.
So, if the company uses PICs for everything, you can expect that not only they have have all the required tools already, but also that they have people who are familiar with PIC HW and SW, have software libraries for it, etc. For OP to be valuable for them, he needs to learn to use PICs and get familiar with company's existing stuff sooner or later.
Conversely, if he uses ATMega/Arduino, then the company has now one gadget using different processor, tools, software etc. and whoever else needs to modify it has to spend time on learning that shit for no reason. Or if there is a reason, it's that OP wanted to postpone learning company's tools.

>>1187120
Arduino is shit
Never use arduino for a real embedded tool
Arduino is meant for children and retards

>>1187939
>GM, Boeing, Tesla and Toyota all use arduino extensively in development of propulsion testing equipment. It's pretty widespread my dude.
>GM
lies, I had work with GM, no adruinos were involved at all.

please note the fact that I'm talking about production/assembly lines, where they already have their own standards which uses specific tools, machines, robots, networks and PLC's, there's no place for hobbies electronics.

Siemens S7 is used a lot in europe, Allen Bradly dominates america.

Tesla I have no idea

The very concept of prototyping with arduino is sheer insanity in a professional scenario.

Prototype anything you like in your garden shed or at college, that's fantastic, but the arduino is no more than a hobbyist tool.

They don't go anywhere near a production process.

>>1188323
its not. fail early is the idea. arduino's are CHEEP and you can burn through a gorillion of them testing your various iterations. once you have something worth a damn, then you can move forward with a more robust and expensive control.

its like saying back of the envelope calculations are worthless in a prototyping scenario.

>>1188302
>lies, I had work with GM, no adruinos were involved at all.

>note the fact that I'm talking about production/assembly lines

I'm not talking assembly lines. If you read the post, I made really clear that development teams use arduinos. Global Propulsion Systems, engines that aren't going to be on the road for 4-6 years. Arduinos are very common in the engineering and development of new technologies up to race engines.

And I detailed exactly where I know of a specific instance of arduinos being used in prototyping a new production technique at Tesla.

Industrial controls are all standard PLCs. I very much agree. Boeing is really into Siemens, The big three use ABB, and GE/Fanuc.
>>1188323
>The very concept of prototyping with arduino is sheer insanity in a professional scenario.

Yet here they are, all over the place in major engineering centers that dominate their respective industries.

>>1188326
>arduino's are CHEEP
no, they aren't even if you could spell.
a bare avr is like for like with most other uc. arduino as a kit is orders of magnitude more expensive. you want to order knockoffs from china with no traceability or comeback? sheer idiocy.

how can you test a platform will work by prototyping using a different platform?

oh we built this test bridge out of concrete and steel, so now we just have to rebuild the real thing using the same design but using wet spaghetti and farts. it doesn't fucking work you retard.

i doubt you would still have a job long before you 'burned' your 'gorrilianth' arduino. maybe do some book learning first, go back to school and learn something you might get on better.

PIC has shitty tools compared to AVRs. But if your company wants you to use PIC just figure it out, it's the same thing.

>>1187181
>Arduino IDE
The Arduino IDE is a POS. But it allows the less skilled to get into uC programming by pointing and drooling.

It is easy to do your Arduino compiling and uploading with Makefile. Which is what real programmers do.

One problem in this thread is that people are some people are using Arduino as a synonym of AVR and other people take Arduino to mean one of the many Arduino boards based on AVR chips.

>>1187120
it means you can go 32bit and greater than 50Mhz but that's about it imhos.

>>1187142
>something to do with cost
Yes.

And if you are new you are not really expected to know this.

True cost is the sum of the following
- cost of parts
- cost of assembly
- cost of development
- cost of fixing after the developer thought it was finished
- cost of series production
- cost of maintenance once the customers phone in since even the post developer fix was not sufficient
- cost of mid life upgrade (like, does it have head room for extension or do we have to get an entirely new platform?)
- cost of late life parts (COTS too often end after 5 years, mil spec after 20)

>>1187168

AVR chips and tools are good. Arduino is a RAD without support, the tiny bit of time it would save compared to C (once you're no longer completely fresh) is not worth the risk.

In a company where all the other engineers are familiar with PICs it just makes sense to use a PIC though.

>Hey Jack, congratulations on getting that job at the Ford dealership last week!

>Yeah it's sweet but I already got fired because I told everyone who came in to go buy a Dacia instead, I mean, they're cheaper and do the same thing so I don't understand the problem...

OP here.
while the software engineer did get on board with using an Atmega32U4 with Arduino bootloader, I have come to the conclusion that it would be better to use a PIC like half of you said. It is a good chance for me to dive in and get paid for it, and we already have the tools for it. Thanks for the advice guys.
Ill post the finished product in a few weeks and see what you guys think.

>>1188694
You know what, I've been ragging on you in here a bit for which I apologise but i'd be real interested to see what you come up with man, I look forward to that thread.

Best of luck with everything.

>>1188694
Let us know if you're still employed in a month because it sounds like you wasted his time for babby shit.

>> It's troll or other /b/ grade topic.

Company has own tools knowledge and expertise in given field.
That on start. If they prefers PIC they know it has tools dev kits ICE's etc for it. the same can be for Atmel or Renesas etc.. corporations like thinks they know.. that's it.

Second .. Who ask you to design battery tester ? as a task for work .. more as apprentice job to test your ability to think.

Arduino its a kids stuff, simply strait forward with limitations... ( boot-loader taking some resources ) and its unpredictable.
It's ok to code blinking Diode this level algorithms, its not even close to optimized code for controlling complex process wrote in C18 or asm.

>>1187120
PIC is just a PIC. Arduino is a PIC plus some support hardware. And the development environment that goes with it.

Arduino uses a series of different PICs. You can use one for hobby stuff, prototyping or serious control apps. But if you are thinking about the cost of thousands of units, you might want to select a PIC that has exactly the I/O, memory and functions that your design will need. Or as close as possible. The Arduino world may not have exactly what you need.

Some of the chip families used for Arduinos will permit you to reuse your code between uCs. But if you choose unwisely, you may have to throw out your prototype work and start over with the chip selected for production.

>>1188762
to be quite honest, The employer has wasted more of my time asking for certain tasks, then changing his mind on shit.
For instance, He wanted me to design a board, great. He gave me specs, I followed, now its the 5th week on the project and I've had to do 4 revisions based on change of specs.
Anyways.

>>1188756
No worries man, We criticize in our own ways.

>>1188694
>Ill post the finished product in a few weeks


you know something? I think they are going to dump your ass as soon as the contract runs out.

I pic based battery tester should have been done by now, let alone two fucking weeks.

This was a test, and you are failing like a mad cunt

>>1187120

> battery test

It's called a multimeter

>>1188824
Kek, sounds like a startup that doesn't really know what it's doing. But sometimes that's enough.

OP this project is a test. They probably don't give a shit about the batteries. I was given a similar task in my first job to use LabView to develop a battery life monitor for one of the companies products. I had never used LabView but instead of insisting on using an Arduino and Processing I learned Labview because that's what the company used to develop test hardware. It wasn't pretty or elegant but it worked.

They want you to show that you are flexible and can work within their team. They have devoted significant resources to PIC development. And any future projects will need to be in PIC anyway so you might as well learn because you are not going to convince them to switch to using an AVR.

My suggestion get you a board like a chipkit or even better get a PIC programmmer and dev board for a processor they use in their products and begin writing code at night and on the weekends until you get decent. Or give your Resume a nice polish.

>>1188810
KEK ... LOL .. ETC..
Arduino .. is based on Atmel chips ... Atmels are CISC based around 8051 core, with extras...
PIC a flag ship of Microchip this uP are RISC .. ultra fast most code is single cycle.
Its different approach of dealing with task memory organization banks etc. stuff you didn't need to know when writing blinking LED in some C++ language.
Microchip Brought Atmel and now all this small chips are made by the same company Microchip. but main characteristics are the same, atmels are ok cheap with limitation of CISC ,, PIC are more advanced but limited by RISC architecture.

>>1187169
Do it their way. You get paid to follow orders. Make what you want on your own time.

Problem fucking solved. You work for money, not to sperg.

>>1189450
atmel is AVR, where the R is for risc.

>>1191249
this is true.
if they only use pics, you'll need to learn to use it anyway.