Forges and Stuff

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>>1183028
Picture of the gas tank

>>1183028
>>1183030
Is that shit propane, or some other gas? Maybe it doesn't burn hot enough?

Or maybe your forge isn't insulating enough, I dunno.

>>1183039
The ""insulating"" material is plaster and sand. As of the gas, according to Wikipedia it is "a fuel gas based on a stabilized mixture of methylacetylene (propyne) and propadiene"

>>1183028
Amateur blacksmith and master smarty pants here, MAPP burns plenty hot, but running off of a tiny can like that is too small to run that forge. Get yourself a propane tank or 2 and a real burner that can emit more gas. Make sure you get a regulator or it would be very very bad. Places like chiliforge online and other blacksmith supply shops sell them, or go on YouTube because people have videos on them. Good luck.

What's the correlation between home forgers and knife making?

Not poking fun or trolling, just curious why. Is it because a knife is a simple intro project, or is knife making the end goal?

>>1183055
what this fellow says, also a second burner would help. You're losing heat too quickly. you really need to close off your glory holes abit. Fact is that's a pretty small forge, but with the holes closed off you'll lose less heat. Regular propane will work and burns alil cleaner than mapp.. but mapp burns hotter. So your call there. Just try to not lose so much heat.

>>1183030
MAPP is hot- what type of torch though?
If your air inlet holes on the torch are too close to the burner end then you tend to get CO2 saturation which cuts down on the amount of temperature as well. Other than that it might be the size of the forge and a few other things which can make it less efficient.

>>1183068
At its absolute bare bones, swinging hammers and messing around with files, its quite cheap. Literally less than a couple of hundred bucks worth of tools and you can make a perfectly serviceable knife.
All mechanisation really does is make it faster to do and a lot less sweat

>>1183244
The CO2 stuff actually makes sense. How would I get rid of that problem? Opening a hole at the back of the forge?

>>1183055
>(Not american)
Its not really a soup can forge. More like a "paint can" forge. Would I still have problems with size?

Thanks

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>>1183223
I tried putting a square rock closing the front almost completelly, but it didn't have any effect.
Im gonna try adding a second one tho.

Here is a pic of the torch.

>>1183397
Save that one for small spot work. Get one with a 1 to 2 inch nozzle, a hose and a 4.5 or 9 kg bottle.

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>>1183400
Also google image search forge burner.

They can be diyed.

>>1183028
IMO you need more airflow as opposed to closing in more. Airflow controls temperature as balanced propane combustion (no carbon monoxide) is propane:O2 1:5 and the air is normally only 21% O2 so go figure. Honestly the air is a pretty good insulator, (not sure on the Cp value for refractories) and not that much heat escapes within reasonable confinements of your forge.

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>>1183395
This is my little heat treat forge I use with a small blowtorch and essentially that plumbing fixture which goes down a short length of threaded brass sleeve keeps the 1" nozzle from sucking up too much CO2/Monoxide from the forge itself.
The flow-through ones are also fine, this one is about 6x6xm and 40cm deep, which is more or less plenty for most of the kitchen knives and stuff I usually run through it. There's variations on them theme by using a couple of thermal bricks strapped together with a channel cut into them and a hole in the side, they work quite well.
eg- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bunCG6W6dA

I just got a $7 toolbox, $5 worth of plumbing bits and there's about $10 worth of refractory cement and sand in it- so very cheap and easy to knock up. Centre formed by using a cardboard wrapped in packing tape to make the hole, had a spare hinge, some machine bolts and a $2 fence end-cap full of cement for the door. Mostly use that when getting up to temp and when I'm soaking tool steels.

Actual forges you use to get up to forging and welding temperatures though you generally want much bigger and running a 2" propane torch (or 2-3 of them in parallel) and they run off a BBQ sized cylinder of gas.
They can cost a bit more if you can't fab up the torches, fittings and hoses.
But hunt around and you can find very good ones for anywhere between $70-100 for the torch and all the plumbing that goes with it

>>1183395
>own on the amount of temperature as well. Other than that it might be the size of the forge and a few other things which can make it less efficient.
Ok, I gotta squash this opening in the forge for more oxygen thing before it goes any further. The fire/your burner is where the oxygen will help. Oxygen inside of the forge chamber is only going to do you harm. So, your burner is drawing ambient air through a venturi, assuming this is correct and efficient, your forge has all the O2 that it needs. Any more o2 is only going to work to scale your hot steel. Hot steel likes Oxygen, and forms Iron Oxide. So forget opening up more holes in your forge for o2. Look more at the efficiency of your burners.

>>1183406
Ended up being a lot more expensive than I tought, but I think this is the way to go...

>>1183633
Thanks for the tips.

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If I line this with refractory and add a bottom blowing air source, would it be a viable Heat Treat forge for stock removal blades?

many thanks

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>>1185810
FYI that's a 12" diameter bbq.

Another idea was a Lively-type forge with a pipe running through a refractory-lined barrel bbq like pic related.

>>1185810
Yes, for sure

>>1185938
Thank you very much kind anon!

Would it be better than >>1185813 with a tuyere running all the way through it?

>>1183028
Those little mapp torches technically reach a higher temperature than propane, but they just don't flow enough fuel, you'd need like 20 of them. It'd be like running your coal forge on half a coal at a time. >>1183406 Listen to this anon, google "Reil burner".

>>1183068
It's the basics, for people who want to force weapons/armors they have to start with knives.

>>1183397
I'm guessing that's a pencil tip torch. The reading I've done on torch forges say you need a swirl tip, which puts out a wider flame.

Bernzomatic TS8000 seems to be what everyone on YouTube uses.

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>>1186809
>>1186341

Thanks guys!

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You need a regulator than can output a minimum of 10psi. There are several burners you can look up on YouTube. You can run off a single 35lb tank and get enough pressure to get a 3/4 round stock piece to yellow hot for about 3-4 continuous hours. This is a little project I whipped up as a sort of proof of concept.

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Would this pottery clay make a good charcoal refractory? Some sculptors in the reviews mention cracking/crumbling ;_;

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gedeo-1-Piece-Kiln-Fired-White/dp/B00ELIU6S8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1496504569&sr=8-1&keywords=10kg+clay

I thought about using wood ash since I saw it recommended, but someone mentioned lye formation when mixed with water for shaping?

>>1187689
meant charcoal forge* refractory

>>1183028
Does anyone know how to make a 4000F forge for making glass? I work for Corning Inc but I can't use there stuff for my own ideas and projects.

>>1187689

Nope. You specifically want flreclay for a refractory. Most other clays have ingredients in them that either themselves melt at higher temperatures or act as fluxes, which, for your purposes, is basically the same thing.

Problem is, you usually can't use just fireclay because it has so little green strength (durability before firing) that it crumbles from even light touch. You also usually want additives to help prevent cracking from thermal cycling. Look up recipes for refractory clay; you'll see they all have things added to the fireclay like silica or alumina.

You could also just buy castable refractory, like Mizzou or Kast-O-Lite, if you're not too concerned with budget and just want to get to work without too much fuckery. Pretty much what I did for the furnace I'm working on. After blowing like $50 on crap trying to make my own insulating refractory, I just said "screw it" and bought a case of insulating firebricks.

>>1187796
>>1187689

By the way, look for pottery stores near you before you buy online. It will be much, much cheaper. I bought a total of 150lbs of raw clays to experiment with from a place relatively close to me, same place I ended up getting the firebricks. The clay came to a total of like $35.

Freight shipping alone on that much clay would have run me far more than that.

>>1187796
Oh man I'm glad I read your advice, thank you!
Looking at sites like iforgeiron, bladesmiths forum etc, I was under the impression that even garden dirt variety clay was acceptable

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/34340-to-clay-or-not-to-clay/

Is that just false information they're spouting off?

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Store bought charcoal is unsuitable because of the binders and chemicals right?
Is that the reason smiths often make their own?

Would pic related be acceptable?

>>1187819

It depends on your definition of "acceptable".

You could fire literal dirt mixed with red clay and it would work for a while. But it will spall, crack, and fail in short order.

The thing is, unless you go crazy overboard on the refractory (like 3000° rated brick/hotface in an electric furnace that doesn't ever see anything hotter than molten aluminum), it's a wearing part. You have to re-do it every now and again. The better the refractory, the less often that's necessary. So, while it isn't wrong that you can use regular clay, it can end up being more work in the long run.

Don't worry too much about it, though. I mean, it's not like blacksmiths back in the day knew anything about the differences between between needle and platelet mullite. They just used whatever they had and dealt with it. No reason you can't do the same. But, at the same time, you should do at least a little research to see what your options are.

As usual, those options boil down to either spending the time to figure out what works by yourself, or spending the money on what someone else has already developed.

Advice on trying to source clay locally still stands, however. 100lb bag of cheap ball clay (specifically Old Hickory #5) from the ceramics shop is $15. Online retail for raw materials in general is a shitty proposition, in terms of out-of-pocket costs. That goes double for what's basically glorified dirt.

>>1187839
Many thanks again, I understand what you mean and appreciate the wisdom.

I live in the city centre of Edinburgh in Scotland where it's slightly more difficult to locate things locally but I'll have a good hunt around!

>>1187839
You sound experienced and knowledgeable anon. Do you know about Tai Goo's wood ash refractory lining? Does it sound like more-hassle-than-its-worth nonsense?

>>1187839
Should the clay be in powder form or "solid" (sorry, English is my second language)?

>>1187844

I'm not familiar, but I do know wood ash is occasionally used in DIY insulating refractory, at least for relatively low-temperature work. Most of what I know pertains to furnaces, not forges. Pretty similar, but forges are arguably more forgiving, in part due to the fact that they're usually constructed such that they're easier to maintain, and slathering on some more hot face material every now and again isn't a huge pain in the ass.

Never heard of using wood ash straight, but I imagine it would work alright if you can get it to stick. Decent insulator, and it should be good for some pretty high temperatures, if there isn't anything mixed in with it that could act as a flux. It'd be pretty easy to remove if it didn't work out, too.

>>1187853
>Should the clay be in powder form or "solid"

As far as buying it goes, you mean? You want the dry powder, not the blocks, if you're doing refractory clays.

The blocks are ready-to-use mixes of different raw clays and materials, made for the convenience of the potter. Most pottery shops have a variety of in-house blends, chosen depending on what you're making. The dry stuff (unless otherwise stated) is plain clay of whatever kind you're interested in, dug out of the ground, dried, pulverized, and bagged. For refractory, you're going to want to mix fireclay with some other fillers/binders in specified amounts, which is easily done with the dry clay.

>>1187737
>4000F forge
That's some pretty insane temperatures, most of the backyard stuff we talk about has limits of around 2-3000F at most.

>>1187869
Thank you for being patient with me and my probably obvious-answer questions, kind anon

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>>1187869
From reading the different popular smithing forums, this bentonite clay is a good choice if I cannot locate local fireclay suppliers in my country, Scotland?

>>1187888

Bentonite isn't a great substitute for fireclay. It can't take temperatures anywhere near as high. It's more commonly used in small ratios as a binder for clay-based refractories in a green state, so that it doesn't fall apart before being fired. I've read of others using it straight (as a hot face, no less) with success, but it's apparently one of those things where your mileage may vary.


I'll hesitantly guess that any distributor that find that sells bentonite in sufficient quantity for a forge sells other clays, too. Fireclay would almost certainly be among them.

Masonry supplies commonly carry fireclay as well, for use in fireplace mortars.

>>1187737

That is well out of the range of pretty much every backyard refractory I've heard of. Almost all of the components in most accessible recipes melt before then. Even alumina, the "I have money to spend", major component of the better DIY refractories, melts below that.

Even most of the commercial refractories in that range tend to come with some major caveats, like speed of heat/cool or that they will erode rapidly unless in an inert gas or vacuum environment. Or, the obvious issue of "This will cost you a week's pay."

"Per pound."

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>>1187898

I-i think this is correct?
http://www.bathpotters.co.uk/powdered-fireclay/p5968#tdesc_1

On another website I saw a DIFFERENT product labelled as fireclay even though the description "Excellent gap filler or leveller before bricks are laid" makes it sound like refractory cement?

>>1187923

That'll work. Almost all refractory recipes use fireclay as the main ingredient, along with a filler (such as silica or alumina) to improve thermal properties, and a binder (such as bentonite or, in the case of many refractory mortars, sodium silicate) to help it keep its shape.

Kinda pricey, though. I pay $15 USD for 100lbs of Greenstripe fireclay. Even the most expensive kind my ceramics shop carries is only $30 for a 100lb bag. I guess for the quantity you'd be buying, it doesn't make that much of a difference in absolute terms. Plus, that place has everything you need to come up with a suitable refractory blend.

>>1187928
You've been amazing and so helpful, thank you kind anon and good luck with your furnace activities!

Guys, what do you do for respirators?

I'm a bit scared after reading about guys who haven't even been grinding metals/woods/micarta for that long who have developed lung disease.

It seems that half-face masks are the sensible thing, but apparently they're so fit-sensitive they should be tested by a professional D:

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I'm planning on building a Lively Washtub style forge; slather a container in refractory and have a pipe tuyer running from one end to the other.

Which of the grills in the pic would be the best shape?
I've been told a trough shape would be better than a bowl since it's easier to reduce the fuel area and save charcoal/coal, is this true?

>>1188042
3m 6800 mask with particulate filters.

bloody good mask for grinding and similar work.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/3M-Reusable-Full-Face-Respirator/dp/B00FYNN6NQ

that's the model. you can get 'em in the US or europe too. I know a lot of blacksmiths who all use these, if you cant afford the more advanced types with active filtration air systems.

only negative point I've found is the nose/mouth cup goes sort of oily and sticky after a couple of years, but you can get replacements.

also, invest in some of the visor protection covers, so the lens doesnt get scratched up.

>>1188058
Brilliant, cheers very much!
Did you get yours fit tested? Is it necessary?

>>1188063
I just got the "medium" size. its got adjusting straps to pull. just do the lower ones till the nose/mouthpiece is a decent seal, then adjust the top ones to fit for comfort - no steaming up problems even in winter.

only problem with condensation is the breath outlet drips in winter... which is just icky.

>>1188068
Thank you for all the help!

>>1188042
As a guy that uses respirators often, i wouldnt stress too much about professional fitting, you just have to do a pressure test.
>cover the intake with hands, inhale
Mask should suck to your face.
>cover exaust, exhale.
mask should puff away.

We get"professionally" fitted for our resperators, but i get a new one ever week and they fit just fine.
Just test it before you buy it.

>>1188477
How about with a beard?

>>1188539
layers of 1part oil, to 7 parts wax. heat it up and apply to your beard until its glued down and you can pass >>1188477 anons test.