Japanese joinery

>>1169323
Isn't that isn't just a box joint?

If you mean those trick joints that got popular on youtube, they're not that strong and take a lot of time to make, compared to dove tails or box joints.

>>1169324
Bridle joint.

Answer to op is that most furniture sold these days is ikea grade aluminum and particle board bolted together. Solid wood anything is a premium deal and sold for premium price.

Thanks for answering guys, I don't really know anything about wood working.

I saw a video of some Japanese workers joining wood together, is it impractical to do that for a diy for a beginner? Maybe making a bed frame or a shelf? Nothing fancy like dove tails and all that.

The video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUPyuz_ink

I'm obviously very impressed by this but the more I talk about it the more I feel stupid.

>>1169365
You are stupid

>>1169365
impractical - yes because while you can buy tools you cannot buy skills

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If your interested in learning more, there are couple of good books on it. The art of Japanese joinery and complete Japanese joinery. They have good explanations of the techniques and also the cultural reasons behind some of their usage.

I don't think theres any way you'd be able to beat bolt together ikea level construction on price. I have seen people using cnc machines to make more complex joinery and i imagine that one could use them to reduce costs instead of hand making them all.

>>1169352
Ikea grade is better then Walmarts Mainstays shit which is less then Ikea grade..

>>1169365
>I'm obviously very impressed by this but the more I talk about it the more I feel stupid.

You were dazzled by how cool it is and not thinking about how much work is required. But you can do it. It just takes time, effort and learning from your mistakes.

A bed frame is too much work for a beginner. Only do things that need to support a lot of weight when you've worked with wood more so you don't accidentally kill yourself or someone else. Start small. A shelf is fine. There's all sorts of boxes and containers you can try too.

And yes you can do this affordably, but you'd be more aiming for family-affordable than barista-bachelor affordable. If you can't seem to get sales for your shitty novice projects and don't have room for them, see if thrift stores, shelters and such will take them.

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twised dovetail

>>1169323
you can learn with this guy
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7FkqjV8SU5I8FCHXQSQe9Q

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Here OP, these are the all practical joints commonly used by western woodworkers. Japanese use many of these all of the time as well. The really fancy Japanese stuff is mostly just for show.

>>1169517

Also, to avoid confusion, the pic there refers to a couple joints strangely.

>what the pic calls a "halving joint" is more commonly called a lap joint
>what the pic calls a "lap joint" is more commonly called a rabbet joint
>what the pic calls a "housing" is more commonly called a dado
>I would call #35 a locking rabbet

>>1169367

Absolutely uncalled for...

daily reminder: joinery is a waste of time and the customer doesn't care if you use screws as long as it's priced well.

>>1169537

Mostly true. Particularly so for large items where bolts allow for the thing to be easily disassembled.

>>1169537
My couch is solid hardwood and all joined. It is at least 22 years old and still solid as ever.

Quality craftsmanship matters

>>1169537
When I was young, stupid, and broke, yeah, I bought shitty furniture. I learned that it is a waste of money. If you have to replace half the things you own because they fall apart when you move to a new place it adds up. Might as well buy something new now and have it for the rest of my life.

Now, if you want to redo your 'style' with cookie cutting Pottery Barn and Pier 1 Imports garbage every 7 years, well, go ahead. Buy cheap garbage, because it won't matter.

On, and you try putting drawers together with screws and have it either not look like ass or have a ton of wasted space or useless wood to cover your 'work'.

>>1169537
This is /diy/ friend. Making loads of money isnt neccesarily all people look at in furniture. If your making something for yourself, materials and the enjoyment of putting an effort in is a big part

>>1169517
Is a drill at the end of the wedged mortise and tenon joint bullshit or does it really reduce splitting?

>>1169677
Really does. It reduces the stress concentration from a sharp angle that can crack easily to a rounded curve without easy spots to nucleate cracking. The additional material removal also reduces the stress involved.

I just started woodworking. It can be frustrating when your "precise" measurements are off and when things don't always look as planned. Like in all things, practice makes perfect. Start small.
My first real joinery project was a woodworking mallet. It's not perfect, and my slots were too wide for my handle (thank God for wood glue and slivers of waste). But it gave me a feel of the basics before moving to bigger projects.
Japanese joinery is great, but there are many woodworkers and artisans worldwide that can achieve those results, if not better.
It's all about passion, commitment, learning from mistakes, and tons of practice! Good luck OP.

>>1169675
True this!
Nothing more satisfying that building something of your own. Plus, you gain real skills!

>>1169661
Cool story, but despite its joinery it's essentially worthless. A 22 years out sofa would not only be out of style, it'd probable have doubles in weight due to all the dead skin cells and absorbed filth over the years. quite unsanitary.

>>1169672
Most don't consider affordable furniture thats last 5-10 years a waste of money.
In fact, just the opposite.
It's good engineering is what it is.
Screws are fine for drawers.
>>1169675
Sure, but that's the exception not the rule.
For 99% of circumstances, joinery is a waste of money time life etc.

>>1169323
japanese joinery is weaker and time consuming than regular glue/joint, nails or screws.

Japanese joinery needs much more wood for the same strenght

>>1170121
to add to this shitpost, joinery was a necessity 100's years ago before screws were invented. But we have them now. Joinery in 2017 is nothing more than masturbatory event.

Fine joinery is time consuming and therefore expensive.
A lot of people don't care about fine furniture, and it is quite a niche industry these days. However, there will always be people who appreciate well made, built to last, artisan products.
It also takes a long time to develop the necessary skill level to make high quality stuff in a reasonable amount of time, which means labour is always the most expensive part of the job.
The other thing with some (not all) fine joinery is that it can't be automated easily. Proper dovetails for example, it's not possible to make router bits fine enough to cut them any other way than with a hand saw (or bandsaw if you're smart)
Tl;dr
Skilled experience is expensive

>>1170544

you don't have a clue.
mortise and tenon, dovetails and such have been automated since the industrial revolution. Shit now adays is just the end result of a race to the bottom with China.
Items can be made essentially heriloom quality with a trivial amount of extra investment but companies want shit to break regularly. we're a lease/mortage/rent/subscription/consume generation.

Screws are fundamentally incompatible with wood and shouldn't be used in furniture at all. Static loads, tabletop, ok.

>>1170547
>Screws are fundamentally incompatible with wood and shouldn't be used in furniture at all.
single dumbest thing i've read on diy all year. bravo!

>>1170605
screws directly into wood, don't tolerate repeated disassembly and reassembly.

even worse if it is particle board, plywood, or some shit softwood.

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>>1171070
>don't tolerate repeated disassembly and reassembly.

neither do joints, because they're usually glued together.

imo nuts and bolts are the best way to join wood. strong and easy disassembly. for end joints you can use something like pic related.

>>1172915
wait, what?

...ohhh I get it.

>>1172915
Yes its a blue board, and yes its hardcore pornography, but there is actually something beautiful about this pic. I cant quite put my finger on it, but I like it

>>1169517
Aside from fucking up some nomenclature this is a great chart. Thanks partner.

>>1172926
It's the butthole. You want to place that finger in it

>>1172915
Made me chuckle.
Mods please don't ban this anon too long.

Idk... Anytime I see "Japanese" joinery I think to myself "wow, that is pretty fucking cool.... what in the hell purpose does it serve." So, I would say that it's value lies with you. Do you want to go through the long arduous process of learning the skills and crafting the joints for your own satisfaction, or do you want to get from point a to point b most efficiently? If the latter, then I wouldn't bother with it... there are many ways to skin a cat and employing Japanese techniques is by far the most time consuming for the same result.

Also something to consider: Japanese woodworking tools are different than "western" woodworking tools. Basically, everything moves in the opposite direction and quality Japanese-style tools are hard to find in North America (if that's where you are) and come at a premium. You can probably get away without using them but it would be an added thing to a process that already requires a pretty high level of skill.

>>1169323

It's not compatible with modern economics because the joints take too much time, perform poorly, demands a resource that is difficult to work with, demands a labourer that is very competent.

A particle board with a melamin cover is tough, reliable, easy to freight, easy to assemble with little or no tools (compared to "japanese" counterpart) and yields acceptable durability.
Machines make them consistent and fast.


hence, "japanese" joinery furniture -> premium.

>>1173265
robots can do japanese joints.

>>1169323
They all look fine and well, and surely they look cool beyond belief! But the sad reality is that a lot of these joints are weak. Any time you cut wood, you're weakening it's integrity, so when you put two thin pieces sandwiching another thin piece, it creates three weak spots. I've made a work bench with fancy joints and it fell apart after 6 years. The work bench I've got now is thoroughly enforced and has all those boring joints you normally see. If you make something with those joints, it's generally a very delicate piece that you would use as decoration and/or storage.

>>1174246
>>1173265
That's true of plywood, although it constrains your design choices in a lot of ways and you end up with standardized product that works tolerably well for most people.
Particle board is pennies more profit for years off the lifespan, and people have just been conditioned to enjoy "modern" disposable furniture, but the economic conditions that meant most people could easily afford better by the time the last set was failing aren't there anymore, and the trend has spread, so you have a lot of people who would be better off having paid an extra 25% for even pine furniture who are dealing with peeling veneers and disintigrating ply on tables etc.
The trend of shit continues further, many interior doors and cheap tables are actually a cardboard honeycomb core, so if they get wet or the corners crack they pretty much peel apart.

"fine" furniture is about adjusting standard measures to fit someone WELL. same as standard shoe/clothing sizes fit most people pretty well, but cobblers/tailors exist.

Also, japanese joinery HAD a major use >>1174246 ignores that the joints are weak compared to western joints with modern glues. Of course, dovetails are weaker than box joints with good glues as well. And it comes from a tradition of making everything a work of art rather than functional.
but basically, working with the constraints of the more complex joints means you need either a SHIT TON of man hours for production, or a lot more design and CNC work.
There's a lot of interesting joints out there, but look more for stuff design around more modern materials.

I've actually been kind of interested in the joinery for 1800's camp furniture, for British officers who had to have something sturdy, comfortable, and stylish that was also light and could be easily disassembled and packed on mules/camels to the next location in India.

>>1169517
>>1169521

missed a few, a pinned mortise and tenon is fairly common, a coping joint is fairly common for most millwork, a cross or pinned dowel joint is one of the few sturdy glue-less joints you can make without hardware,
>>1169682
also provides space for glue squeeze out so hydraulics don't keep the joint from getting a good fit while gluing.
>>1170121
reupholstering is a thing. no one is arguing that you should never replace chair cushions.
Also, antique 1920's or 1930's sofas in good condition can go for a few thousand dollars. A lot of people enjoy old styles. However, out of style is an issue when you can't get replacements in the same style, because it looks like shit when you have a mishmash of different styles.
Even a shitty 1960's modern style house can look pretty good if the furniture is all in good shape, not creaking or cracking, and it's all matching each other.

I personally like pine and plywood furniture, but following the cheaper path leads you to furniture made of milk crates duct taped together and cushions.
ask anyone who does office work if there's a difference between a $40 home office chair and a $400 professional office chair.
And cheap is great until 2 years in you have a chair break, and have to decide whether to pay for a new dining set, live a chair down, or buy a similar but not matching replacement.

>>1170121

A good leather couch can be maintained and cleaned. And if it was styled in such a way its no longer valuable you fucked up.

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>>1174322
>joinery for 1800's camp furniture, for British officers who had to have something sturdy, comfortable, and stylish that was also light and could be easily disassembled and packed on mules/camels to the next location in India.
Post this immediately

>>1169661
>>1171070
>plywood
The plywood support arch in pic related snapped while my gf was riding me cowgirl on it, pic is after I replaced it with a matching poplar piece I cut. The couch is quite new, so it got me thinking about going piece-by-piece and replacing all the plywood parts. I'm sure the upholstry would have some bitchy parts to work with. Anyone tried something like this?