intro to wood working

is that pocket screwed together?

>>1130871
Yeah
What sort of joinery would you use for a quick 2x4 table?

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>>1130872
Not fucking pocket screws. Pic is a work bench made to roll around at work. It's so far lasted 3 years of daily abuse and there's not a single pocket screw on it.

>>1130877
Oh wow
The whole "pocket joints are a meme" is in reference to using "proper joinery".

Why would you post a table using screws and butt joints?
Its on the same level as using pocket screws as its not "proper joinery".

>>1130872
I'm just noobie too but I think mortise and tenon is commonly used to make stuff like this. Wath some Matthias Wandel videos or maybe John Heisz on youtube.

Or anything related to woodworking really.

Hoping to get some of my first stuff done this month, bought router, table/miter saws en decent vacuum for wooddust/chips.

>>1130879
>On the same level

When you're paying a company for meme tier jigs, screws and drills it's not on the same level.

Pocket hole joinery isn't even on the same level in terms of a joint and the fact you can compare grain on glued and screwed butt joints to end grain pocket hole joints makes it plainly clear you're talking out your ring piece.

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>>1130885
>this whole post
Comparing and gluing grain has nothing to do with using pocket holes or straight screwing.

Pocket holes are just butt joints, but the application of the screw is different.

But if you want to talk grains lets go ahead.

In a regular straight screwed butt joint like in the picture you posted, you go through the side grain of a piece of wood INTO the end grain of the other.

Pocket screws are backwards, the go through the end grain INTO side grain.

Both are going to have the same sheer strength of the screw. But the pocket screw is actually going to hold up better because of the superior pull out strength of the grain its screwed into.

But its negligible because both are weak.
The people who shit on pocket screws dont defend regular screws either, and there is a reason.
But it doesnt mean they dont have a place in the world, you are just getting caught up in memes

>>1130865
T-25 torx master race reporting in. Spent hundreds on them. In hindsight a good nail gun may be cheaper. But horey shet.

>>1130877
I have pic related also. No point wasting pic bumps. The way i ALWAYS do it. Make 2 identice 2x4 rectangles for top and mud support. Throw 4 legs on and then plywood. Trim bottoms of legs or make adjustable.

>>1130898
>The people who shit on pocket screws dont defend regular screws either, and there is a reason.
This. Screws are fine for putting up drywall, holding a joist in its bracket, mounting plywood, etc. They even have a place with furniture. Generally, anyplace you'd use a nail it would probably be better to use a screw. That said, a real craftsman would never use a screw where they should use a joint. You aren't going to see many hinges or tabletops attached using only woodworking joints, though. Screws have a place. It's in rough framing, holding on hardware, and specific applications. Not putting your entire project together.

>>1130898
I'm not even bothering. I was trying to point out to OP pocket hole are garbage regardless of the amount of spin you out on it, or glue for that matter and there are far simply ways of making a work bench.

I guess there's always one cork sniffing purist know it all who has to chime in though and up until now you've not posted anything to convince me or anyone else you're credible.

But what do I know. I'm just a man with a work bench.

>>1130909
>I guess there's always one cork sniffing purist know it all
>I was trying to point out to OP pocket hole are garbage regardless of the amount of spin you out on it

kek

>>1130906
Screws literally hold hardwood doors up on hinges and in your opinion they're only (((good enough for drywall))).

You're saying all this while most north American and Canadian homes are mostly just nailed and screwed together.

>Inb4 buh muh real craftsmen

>new guy asks for general guidance and help getting started
>one autist goes on an incredibly specific tangent railing on the one little thing that sets him off and derails the whole thread

It's like I'm still on /ck/

>>1130918
Needlessly hating and shitting on pocketscrews is one of /diy/s favorite memes

>>1130921
And using them isn't?

>Paying for (((muh jig)))

>>1130922
>surprised that a lot of beginning woodworkers use a tool thats made for beginning woodworkers

>>1130865
If you are making it yourself and have to ask then butt/lap joints glued and screwed. No point polishing a turd any more than you have to.

>>1130921
>pocketscrews
they sound like an easy solution to a real problem but fuck if they arent ugly

at least fill them in with something later, pls

>>1130922

ffs anon the mini jig costs a tenner and the drill bit you need has other applications besides just pocket screws. I use it to do flush counter sinks all the. The screws themselves also have non-pocket hole applications as they are self tapping. They work great for instances where you would ordinarily use a small washer with the screw.

Pocket holes are a time saving measure that has a place in wood working. Quick and easy workbench is certainly a fine use for them.

>>1130872

Mortise and tenon. Loose tenons are fine to make the process a bit easier. You can do lap joints on the support parts. Dowels would work too on most of it if you aren't set up to make mortise/tenon joints easily.

>>1130865
Pocket screws are fine for that op, don't listen to these autists. You could've used regular screws and a lapped joint too. Would've been faster/easier.

>>1130916
> Screws literally hold hardwood doors up on hinges and in your opinion they're only (((good enough for drywall))).

If the hinge is properly attached they don't. A properly attached hinge is recessed into the door and the walls of the recess support the weight. The screws only keep the hinge in the recess.

Pocket screws are in fact one of the best ways to make a solid wood table top assuming you don't have a professional jig.

You need a ton of clamps if you try it to do with pipe-clamps, because applying the pressure from the sides causes buckling. With pocket screws each joint is pulled tight individually, no buckling.

In an ideal world, yes but unfortunately that completely ignores the laws of physics. The moment of the door isn't at the hinge but at the cross section of the two points so there's a force applied away from the upper hinge and toward the lower. It helps but on its own the recess isn't the solution.

>>1130877
Lol. Pocket holes would be about 3x stronger than your workbench made with your mastery of the screw into endgrain technique.

>>1130916
Hey, it's that asshole in every thread that only reads the first line of a post and then feels the need to "contribute"!

>Screws literally hold hardwood doors up on hinges

Did you see the part that said:
>Screws have a place. It's in rough framing, holding on hardware, and specific applications
>It's in rough framing, holding on hardware, and specific applications
>holding on hardware
>hardware

Do you know what hinges are? Hardware.

>>1130924
They are the hot glue or MS Paint of the woodworking world. Used by legions of amateurs to make sub-standard projects instead of doing it right. That have their place, but they are overused A LOT. They are also used by semi-skilled 'professionals' to knock out cheap melamine cabinetry for ugly kitchens that will be replaced every 10 years.

>>1131135
Properly planed joints, glue, and clamps it what you use to make a solid table top. If you have to screw them together on top of that you are either wasting effort or making a top that is put together so poorly that it will fall apart without them.

>>1131219
This bait isn't worth argument but there's no end of tests that's have been done to show how weak pocket hole joints are.

>>1131229
>Tries to attack position
>Confirms everything I'm saying

As for the hardware point, I'm lost, are you saying somehow screws used with hinges are negligible? If so see >>1131141

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Tfw no workspace after moving to new country, no way to blacksmith so you start carving chess figures. Only 31 to go.

>>1130865

A small selection:

Roy Underhill is the Bob Ross of Traditional Woodworking. If you want a Kooky Grandpa to teach you without a single powertool in sight, he's top notch. Has been on PBS since 1979.
http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/watch-on-line/

Matthias Wandel is very good for DIY, but leans heavy on the power tools and odd projects. He does a lot of specialist-construction and mechanical designs, including home-built power tools. Most of his work is left as bare wood. He sells the plans for his works.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswandel

Tommy Mac does good work in more of a dad/uncle manner with a focus on practical furniture and things you can gift to your family. Also has a PBS show (which are what the youtube videos are)
https://www.youtube.com/user/TommyMacDonald207/videos

Samurai Carpenter if you're a weeb, hate yourself enough to use japanese tools, but can't speak moon.
https://www.youtube.com/user/6488jesse


If you need specific ideas as to what to make, go take trips to local furniture stores and take pictures of the shit you see so you can reverse engineer it. If anyone asks what you're doing just say you're browsing and trying to collect ideas. It's not technically lying.

Also check house/estate sales, open houses and so on for the same purpose.
As for the joinery autism:
Mortice-and-tenon should be always considered first as it's the strongest form of joint. Like it's the welding of woodworking - in certain configurations the surrounding wood is more likely to fail before the joint. If you can't use it then you look into other joints.

Miter, butt, and similar weak joints that require glue, nails or screws are for adding on decoration not integral structure. Or for small items that will never be under significant stress, like small picture frames.

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>>1131229

>Properly planed joints, glue, and clamps it what you use to make a solid table top.

But you need a metric fuckton of clamps to do it right with thin boards. With pocket screws all you need is a flat surface.

> If you have to screw them together on top of that

The screws are merely pulling the the boards together until the glue sets, just like clamps, for that they are more than sufficiently strong enough.

>>1131427
>But you need a metric fuckton of clamps to do it right with thin boards

You need a metric fuckton of clamps anyway and they're cheap as shit.

>>1131432
This. Unless you're buying bessey clamps, which I would recommend to anyone, clamps are cheap as shit.

>>1131426
Paul Sellers is good resource too. Minimal bullshit and the manner of a slightly bored highschool shop teacher.
https://www.youtube.com/user/PaulSellersWoodwork/

Has a really solid group of videos on basic joins.

>>1131323
>but there's no end of tests that's have been done to show how weak pocket hole joints are.

So how exactly would screws into endgrain be ANY different then pocket hole screws?

>>1131450
Wood is not velveeta. It has structure. The weaknesses in that structure are exploited to shape it and the strengths are harnessed to make it useful.

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>>1131452
>Wood is not velveeta.
oh yes it is

>>1131452
Nice non-answer that was already addressed here
>>1130898

Ridiculous the implication you cant manipulate your project and grain if you use pocket screws, but can if you use regular screws.

You anti pocket screw faggots cant shit on pocket screws and laud regular screws, its fucking retarded

Pocket screws are an awful idea for hobbyists.

>using the least fun tools instead of the most fun tools

>>1131323
>Tries to attack position
>Confirms everything I'm saying
Cause you were confirming what I was saying, dude. Screws have their place. That place is not in joining two pieces of wood together in any 'fine woodworking' project. I don't know how you can read my post above (>>1130906) and then come up with >>1130916. I literally say they are good for hardware there. So, again, I state that you should read more than the first line of the post before making a reply.

>>1131427
A crap Kreg jig is like $40 new. Their deluxe models are over $100. Then you have to buy their special screws when you run out. The drill bit is also custom, so it's a special purchase to replace as well. I've picked up a dozen Pony pipe clamps for $5 a pop at garage sales. I have so many Jorgenson wooden clamps I've lost count. The most I've ever paid for one is $8. F clamps and C/G clamps are super common at sales. Hell, in a pinch I have even used ratcheting tie downs for large pieces (use cardboard to protect the edges of the wood and where the ratcheting mechanism will hit). If cost is an issue don't buy inferior tools, just keep a weather eye out and buy good used tools for cheap.

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>>1131450

It would be completely different for the simple fact forming a pocket hole removes any material a screw would potentially bite into and weakens whatever material is left. So now, rather than having plenty of wood left for the screw to bite into you have a recess and anything from 10-20mm of straight grain left to rely on along with the screw head. If the screw head doesn't break first the wood will break out under load. You've got a better chance of it surviving if it's cross grain but there's going to be a lower chance of that simply because that's now how you'd make up the member of a table. It would be stronger with glue but end grain butt joints aren't prone to a quality glue joint.

A screwed butt joint cross grain into end grain would be stronger simply because there's a massively reduced chance of break out and the screw is more than likely going to have a higher strength under load. You should really grasp the concept of a pocket hole and grain direction if you're going to assume there's no difference.

https://youtu.be/WMi6W2cvw7g

>>1131544
Screws do not hold on well to end grain. That's the entire raison d'etre for pocket holes. To flip around the orientation to optimize the strength of a screw joint.

You are an idiot and you should never drive in a screw again. Just leave.

>>1131571
What are you talking about?

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>>1131571
Is this just really shitty bait or? I dont know what you're trying to suggest?

>>1131544

Straight screwed butt joint is not stronger than pocket hole butt joint. There have been a number of tests of this. Butt joint is always the worst. From there it typically goes bicuit joint, then pocket hole joint, then dowels*, then it starts to become a toss up between dovetails, box joints, mortise/tenon, and surprisingly, lap joints.

*dowels are variable depending on thickness, how many are used over a given distance, in what width of material and so on.

>>1131544

Also, Mattias' test regarding the strength of adding glue is not valid in that video. He didn't do best practice for gluing end grain. In order to glue end grain successfully for maximum hold, you have to prep the end grain by applying a layer of glue, letting it soak in for a few minutes, apply more glue, then connect the pieces. The glue in his joint failed earlier than they should have because he only applied glue once and screwed the pieces together immediately.

Now i'm not saying butt joints are good here. Or that pocket holes don't lose to sturdier joinery techniques. Just pointing out a flaw in the test methodology.

Are bench bolts worth it or are they placebo?

>>1131609

You people drain the fuckin' life out of me with your bullshit, ya know.

>>1131426
came here for the memes and this

thought I'd try my hand at woodworking

Do any of these lay out all the joints everyone keeps debating about? or is that in every woodworking eBook I can find online?

>>1131609
>the strength of adding glue is not valid in that video
Uhhuh. So, assuming he repeats the test once again, this time with your correct gluing method, how much improvement he could expect? Would the difference be big enough to show up from statistical variation with just 5 test pieces?

>>1131632

A butt joint glued immediately without prep is at least 25% weaker on average. The glue still would have failed first, then the screws would bend, as shown in the test. The difference is the bottom number for first point of failure on that joint. Which makes it advantageous to properly glue pocket hole joints for better rigidity before weakest part of joint fails.

Matthias' argument is that it makes no difference. I disagree.

>>1131637
If only there were some way for you to prove that, like doing the test correctly and uploading it to YouTube.

Now you can all wonder if Matthias lurks /diy/.

>>1131544
the pocket joints in ops structure will never see that type stress. end grain gluing 1x3 pine lol.

>>1131597
>>1131596
https://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/endgrain_screw.html

Here you go. If you have an IQ higher than room temperature, you'll figure out why pocket holes are stronger than normal screw construction.

>>1131701
You don't know that though, do you.

>>1131773
That link does nothing to refute my point about pocket holes being weaker than screws through end grain. Just states another fact about screwing into end grain but again that doesn't mean it's weaker or as weak.

>>1131621
That is in most books yes. They do tend to point out what the joints are in the videos if they are using them, depending on the video. You can also check wiki or just google a list of them.

>>1131571
>>1131773

An easier way to explain it is that trees are made of fibers all running up from the ground towards the sky (generally, some trees are fucked with loads of burls and knots and grow in crazy directions).

These fibers are packed together at microscopic scale, but they otherwise function like any other fibers.

If you take a brush - any kind, or the hair of someone nearby - and push a screw into the face of it, you'll mostly seperate the fibers around but the threads won't catch well. However if you go at it from the side you'll find that the fibers get lodged in the threads.

Endgrain is like pushing into the face of a brush while cross grain is like pushing into the side of a brush, which is why cutting into the endgrain and cutting with the grain are easier than making crosscuts.

>>1131896
Your point about the pocket holes weakening he structure of the wood are valid, but only in certain applications. Both are bad, lazy joints yet designing your project as such that the section of wood with pocket holes will never have stress put on it can alleviate this and make pocket holes edge out ahead.

Likewise if say, a screw is only experiencing shear force due to the design of the project then the endgrain screw will hold just fine.

But both suck because you're artficially limiting what your project can do by being lazy and not just carving out proper joints. You don't even need a special machine to make mortices.

>>1131896
>You don't know that though
unlike that video, ops bench is constructed in a manner which doesn't rely on the sheer strength of a joint.
google point loading. pretty simple stuff once you learn basic carpentry.

Hi guys, new to /diy/ here. I have a question. Woodworking is one of those things that has interested me for a little while now, what can I make to earn some money? What tools do I need? What materials do I need?

>>1130865
https://youtu.be/ru2ZiNs_Wek

Build your workbench with Paul Selkers and you'll be better at woodworking than most hobbyists who've been doing it for years.

Also you won't get hung up on a lot of the pitfalls of hobbyist woodworkers.

He has a lot of other tutorial videos that are all worth a watch.

Anyone?

>>1133228

>>1133228
>what can I make to earn some money?
Nothing. By the time you buy the tools, the materials, learn what the hell you are doing so you can make something someone would want to buy and pay for your time you will be so far in the hole that it will take you years to "break even". Unless you want to be one of those turds trying to sell cutting boards at the local farmers market. Haveing made a few cutting boards for myself and friends, it gets old fast. Do you want a hobby or do you want a job?

Being a home woodworker is not something you do because you want to make money. It is something you do because you like doing it.

>>1133274
Don't bump your posts on this board unless it has been over 24 hours.

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>>1133274
>>1133358

Don't listen to this faggot. I sold several pieces when I was starting out and reinvested the money into more tools. Just make simple stuff for sale.

This is what you need:
- circular saw
- drill
- clamps
- measuring tape
- carpenter square
- jigsaw

With only these tools you can start building basic useful shit. Also check out Enzo Mari autoprogettazione (pic related) it's modern designer furniture you can build with just hammer and nails and you can sell it to hipsters for good money.

Next I would buy the following tools:

- Wood chisels: Narex makes a good affordable set

- tenon and dovetail saws: I use a Gyokucho 372 Japanese saw for both

- hand plane: start with a number 4 or 5, invest in a good one.

- sharpening stone

If you are making a bit of money at this point consider buying a table saw and a planer/joiner

Search Paul Sellers on youtube

- coping saw

>>1133228
>>1133358
If you're poor, go hand tools and only buy what you need. You can get some for cheap/free by asking friends and family if they have any old tools they don't use anymore, and using ebay.

Make yourself new furniture to replace what you have and sell off your old stuff to recoup some of the costs.

This is a very barebones list and the tools really depend on what you want to do:

#1 priority is safety gear. Steel toe boots, gloves, filter mask and safety goggles.

A workbench (make one), hard flooring and a shop vac

A ripsaw for big cuts and a smaller, higher TPI backsaw for detail work

A block plane & jack plane, for smoothing and cutting the face of wood down more finely. You can (and should) get other planes as needed.

Chisels, preferably 1/4", 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8" sizes at minimum, or the metric equivalent, and a mallet. Other in-between, larger or smaller sizes can be gotten if you find you're doing work at a size that makes them more useful. Don't buy shitty hardware store chisels.

A brace drill for boring (such as removing material from a mortice before finishing it with chisels) and augur bits for this purpose (a set of 1/4" to 1" is fine)

An eggbeater hand drill smaller precision drilling, and a set of brad-point drill bits.

If you later want a power drill you should be able to use the same bits in it.

A regular claw hammer and some nails
A screwdriver, driver bits for your drills, and some screws
Wood glue

For measurement:
A combination square - be careful as some cheaper or older ones may be misaligned and not actually 90 degrees.
Tape measure
Pencils
Carpenter's knife, chip carving knife or marking knife
A 2ft straightedge
Some C-clamps
Some bar clamps

There are many other measurement tools (try squares, marking gauges, etc) if you need them.

Do your own research into what you may want or need.

This faggot:
>>1133498
Likes his powertools but there's people like me who hate them so YMMV

>>1133499
Also you need things for tool maintenance. Files, sharpening stones, wax/oil/tinfoil for longer term storage (everyone has their own favorites), and a toolbox.

Some new tool blades come with lacquer on them so you need a solvent to remove that as well.

>>1133499
Not the guy you're replying to, but what would be a decent plane for 50 dollerydoos / euroshekels or less ?

>>1133498
>>1133499
>>1133505
Thanks for the info, what are some things I can make?

>>1133517
A workbench. There are loads of plans and videos on a variety of types online. Pick one by an expert that suits your space and follow it as best as you can.

Then do simple things to get a handle on your tools, such as a birdhouse, mailbox, cutting board, paper towel roll/toilet roll holder, a magazine rack... Nothing too small to where you could cut yourself by being clumsy, but nothing so big that could cause personal or property damage if you didn't assemble it correctly. As a bonus you can give such small items away to friends and family as gifts once you've gotten them past boy scout level.

Look at the furniture you have already and slowly make replacements. Start with things such as wall shelves, low shelving units, end/coffee tables, a monitor stand, etc. Stuff that has to support some weight but not too much.

When you have more confidence in your joinery and understanding of the wood you can move on to making things that need to be built very sturdy, like bookcases, drawers, cabinets, chairs or tables.

>>1133516
There are lots. The go-to standard is an old, but decent quality Stanley No. 5 or No. 4. These are pretty affordable, and you can also get inexpensive replacement parts for ones that may turn out to have hidden lemons.

>>1131445
Bessies have their place with cabinet work where you don't have a third hand to add cawls.

Bonus for keeping stuff square while glue sets

>>1131113
Mortice and Tenon for fine furniture, overkill for most other stuff

For stuff made out of dimensional lumber, use la joints with glue and screws

Fine plywood, pocket screws at minimum, dadoes are better, finger joints and dovetails the best

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>>1130985
Pocket screws work well for space frames for drawers

>>1131617
Bed bolts from Lee Valley work well for take down hardware, I used the 1" diameter ones for a queen sized bed to hold the rails to the four posts. Photo shows it in action. This joint is 20 years old, solid as day it was made.

>>1133499
I started with hand tools from Grandfather and went from there

Bought a tablesaw from pawn shop for 300 as it was in pieces but all were there, the same as friends as I knew how to use this one, built work bench out of salvaged wood, added twin screw vice to it. Add dog holes in bench for extra utility

Let people KNOW you want tools, you never know what old stuff they inherit and dont wants, got a collections of chisels planes punches bits that way

A brace with bits is VERY useful es the adjustable bit for those times you need some odd 1 3/16" hole but dont want to buy a bit just for that

>>1133516
Old used Stanley or the chinese brand Amazon sells by the name of Shop Fox. Shop Fox runs out of the same factory a UK plane company (i forget the name) uses to manufacture their stuff. The planes amazon sells under the shop fox brand are exactly the same, just without the brand of the better uk company stamped on. I have their jack plane and their smaller smoother. Both are good quality with minimal tweaking required to get them in working order.

>>1133274
Right above this post is some of the best advice you'll get on intro woodworking. Do it.

I've began woodworking too. The dumbest shit is learning all the gay terminology.

Joinery: just gay sounding.
Square: only half a square.
Dado: just a fucking stupid ass word.
Dovetail joint: how is it a joint of it doesn't even move?
Brad point bit: just get the fuck out of here.

Next you'll want to get useless fucking tools with useless fucking names like "the miter box". You know that box that you store miters in.

>>1133893
>Joinery: just gay sounding.
You are the expert.
>Square: only half a square.
It is used to make things square.
>Dado: just a fucking stupid ass word.
Again, you are the expert.
>Dovetail joint: how is it a joint of it doesn't even move?
Someone needs to look up the definition of the word. You know your skull has joints in it? I'm not talking about the jaw either. Well, in your case they probably do move somewhat, seeing as how your skull probably never fully hardened. Remember to put your helmet on.
>Brad point bit: just get the fuck out of here.
Clearly, the obvious is lost on you.

>You know that box that you store miters in.
Nah mate, it's the box you *make* miters in.

>>1133893
>Square: only half a square.
Going to use this one to annoy mechs thanks anon

>>1133582
I keep seeing Stanley being mentionned; i guess it's a solid choice

>>1133893
>he doesn't know to read woodworking jargon in a scottish accent

LADDY YER JAS GITN STARED

PREP YER POCKET HOLE AND PREPA TA BE REAMED FOR I JUS GO SHOVE BISCUITS IN YER JOINT INSTEAD

>>1133986
Old Stanley. New Stanley shit is made in Mexico and is trash.

>>1133555
Another good bit of advice is to go to estate sales or auctions that sell dead peoples shit.

You can sometimes get tons of good tools for next to nothing

>>1134878

tfw great grandpa was a carpenter and I have all his old 1910-1930's Stanley planes.

>>1135030
tfw grandpa was a handyman in his own home but after he passed my buyfag family got rid of nearly all of his tools and equipment

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>>1130909
Although it's common to have an impotent envy of pocket joinery, you rarely are able to see it in such a whining purity.

>>1130879
That dude's butt joints and brackets are like a less expensive, less technical method. It takes less skill than hook up the pocket jig, but i feel the amount of money/time saved outweighs the pocket screws

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I'm in the middle of building or buying a new workbench.

Long story short I gave my workbench to a family member.

I'm leaning towards the Lowes workbench or building one, I don't have a miter saw otherwise I would go for this style...

Not sure how to attach the top part...

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>>1137602
This would be my 2nd choice for workbench frame...
I'd probably go this route