Deep Marvel Stories

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dc even has the best girls

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This was a nice spiderman issue about people living in the ghetto. Its from Peter parker, Spiderman #35 I think by Paul Jenkins.

Come to think of it, this is a much better miles morales origin than the one Bendis gave us.

>>95257649
Miller's Daredevil
Steve Gerber's Howard the Duck
Steve Gerber's Man-Thing
Steve Gerber's Foolkiller
various Punisher comics at times

>>95257822
People give Paul Jenkins crap for a lot of his 00's stories (and a lot were pretty bad) but his Spider-Man stuff around the late 90's and in 2000 were great.

>Come to think of it, this is a much better miles morales origin than the one Bendis gave us.

Now I'm imagining what it'd be like if a Sentry situation had happened with Miles and Bendis created the character and did one story arc but then Jenkins took over using the character.

>>95258141
Were there a lot of Jenkins duds? His first Sentry miniseries was cool and his inhumans was probably the most interesting they have been to this day. I dont remember anything bad except for his second sentry mini

>>95257896
LOL only Gerbers stuff? Marvel is truly hopeless

>>95258261
The biggest dud of his was Civil War Frontline. Second biggest dud was that Sentry Fallen Sun comic. And I think there were a few others like the second Sentry mini.

>His first Sentry miniseries was cool and his inhumans was probably the most interesting they have been to this day.

Yeah but I consider those before the 00's (technically, Sentry was published in 2000 but he had to have been working on it during 1999).

>>95257649
Vison is pretty good.

>>95257649
America Chavez.

Marvels
Earth X
Squadron Supreme
Miller Daredevil

They don't have anything as good as DC, honestly. I'd say Born Again is probably the closest they've got and that's basically because Frank Miller wanted to write Batman, but wasn't working at DC yet.

I mean, DC has D-list characters like The Question and Animal Man that have had more meaningful runs than Marvel's A-listers.

>>95258593
So what about Kraven's Last Hunt and The Sin-Eater Saga? Moench's Moon Knight or Benson's? Maybe Simonson Thor, PAD Hulk, and all the great runs on Cap?

>>95258593
I think Daredevil Born Again might be in the top 5 of greatest comics ever written.
Fucking fight me, you faggots

I don't know if it's up the with the same level as the other stuff, but the kid who collected Spider-Man is great

>>95258639
I'm not saying they don't have great runs, but I don't think most of them even reach DC's top 5.

>>95258667
>I don't think most of them even reach DC's top 5.
And what would those be?

>>95257649
I put part of the blame on Marvel's terrible trades department. It's hard to build culturally-known stories when something is only in print for a year

>>95258705
Fucking This

>>95258678
Watchmen
TDKR
Sandman
Doom Patrol
Saga of the Swamp Thing
All-Star Superman
Kingdom Come


Those are probably the top top, I'm sure I'm forgetting some. It's just hard to say anything Marvel has put out in the same regard are up there with those aside from maybe Born Again and Miracleman.

>>95258743
I kinda think Marvels is better than Kingdom Come but not the rest.

>>95258743
>Watchmen
>TDKR
>Kingdom Come
These aren't runs Anon. And why Doom Patrol of all of Morrison's work?
I'll certainly say that O'Neils Question and Ostrander's Spectre are fantastic run that could have been easily included.

>>95258815
We're not talking about runs specifically, just stories in general.

>>95258662
The homeless chick.
That fucked me up. Dex star tier.

>>95258743
Ennis' Punisher Max, Fury my war gone and X-Statix would be up there.

>>95258777
I agree

>>95258743
>>95258856
Bendis' Daredevil, Vision and JiM would be close.

>>95258839
Then Marshal Law. Countdown To Dark, Marvels, and both Mircaleman and Born Again as you brought up as well as
>>95258855
Fury MAX My War Gone By as this anon mentioned. All of which I'd argue are close in quality to the best of DC's top five.

>>95258905
>Then Marshal Law. Countdown To Dark, Marvels, and both Mircaleman and Born Again as you brought up as well as

But if we count Marshal Law then we have to count Preacher and Transmetropolitan

>>95258930
Why? And it wouldn't change anything.

>>95258901
Bendis DD has not aged well.

>>95259014
How?

>>95258969
Those three are all-creator owned. It's like do you count Moonshadow as a Marvel book or a DC book? Cause it was over at Epic in the 80's then had a new story in the 90's at Vertigo.

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>>95259014
Fuq your self, The prison arc & mr. fear arc were amazing

>>95258905
When I said homeless chick I meant with the spiderman newspaper clippings.

>>95257649
that's why Marvel has sold move comics since the 70s

>>95259145
The initial Marshal Law mini (And best) was published through Epic. And more importantly while I love Transmetropolitan and Preacher they're hardly of the same caliber as Marshal Law
>>95259259
PAD has a lot of good Spidey stuff.

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>>95257649
>DC has Killing Joke, Watchmen, Sandman, Swamp Thing, Superman Secret Identity
DC has Alan Moore, Alan Moore and Alan Moore.
Neil Gaiman has written for Marvel too and Kurt Busiek has more Marvel stuff than DC stuff, I think.
The Difference between Marvel and DC is that DC treasures its good stories more and constantly show off their existence.
Marvel's good stories get lost in time, because even Marvel forgets about them.
I love Silver Surfer Requiem.

>>95259259
sorry meant
>>95259271
>PAD has a lot of good Spidey stuff.
for >>95259186

>>95259014
nah, it's just you letting your hate for Bendis get in the way

>>95259286
>Neil Gaiman has written for Marvel too
two stories to pay for his lawsuit to get Marvelman back from Todd McFarlane

>>95259286
Gaiman's Marvel stuff is nowhere near Sandman.
Silver Surfer requiem was complete thrash.

>>95258593
Born Again and TDKR came out at literally the same time

>>95258743
>Kingdom Come
not even close

>>95258777
>I kinda think Marvels is better than Kingdom Come
I disagree, but I can still understand why you'd think this.

>>95259317
>Gaiman's Marvel stuff is nowhere near Sandman.
No one said it was.
>Silver Surfer requiem was complete trash.
Can you give me an argument as to why?

>>95259310
What two stories?

>>95259359
Eternals and 1602

>>95259366
Oh neat. 1602 was one of the choices for a free trade amazon was offering me.

>>95259358
It was overly melodramatic, had some of the worst written and paper thin faux philosophy, with no real story. Nobody has ever given any reason why it's good. Forced feels do not provide a good substitute for a bad story.

>>95259420
the art's nice

>>95259418
Had I paid more attention when I first looked at the lidt I would know that.

>>95259453
*list

>>95259366

1602 was so fucking bad. It was clearly written as a thought experiment, not with any sort of interest in the characters.

>>95259468
I have never read a bad story by gaiman regardless of format.
I should give this a look to see what his bad stuff is like.

>>95257896
Also Gerber's Defenders and Greunwald's Squadron Supreme

2010's Journey into Mystery?

>>95257649
I'll bite
Kraven's Last Hunt
Classic Strange
If you mention DoFP you ought to include a shitload of Claremont's X-Men in that list
OG New Mutants
Several runs of X-Factor
The original Wolverine solo
Age of Apocalypse
Fucking Savage Sword of Conan
Miller's Daredevil
Punisher MAX and Barracuda
Fury MAX

>Overall DCs output seems better
I still kinda agree tho

>>95257649
Spider-man at least has Kraven's Last Hunt and The Child Within's stuff with Harry.

>>95259538
Simonson's Thor
Robert Rodi Thor mostly For Asgard and Blood Brothers
Runaways
Annihilation, and Annihilation Conquest which are better events than anything DC has done
Supreme Power
Rage of Ultron

>DC
>best self contained series

>Marvel
>better longer runs

at least that is what I've noticed

>>95257649
I don't think Marvels and Earth X have been mentioned.

The recent vision run is criminaly Underrated.

>>95259588
It would appear I was wrong >>95258593
I got nuth'n

>>95259538
also Kirby's FF
Lee and Romita's Spiderman
mayybe a couple runs of X-Force and Morrison's X-Men

>>95259576
The fact that Annihilation and Annihilation Conquest belongs in a list of deep comics is laughable. 90% of comics you've listed do not belong here.

>>95259583
except then you bring in stuff like Morrison's Batman and his other longer runs, all the Vertigo runs, O'Neil's Question, Moore's Swamp-Thing, Perez's Wonder Woman, and others, and Marvel again falls behind

which isn't to say Marvel doesn't have good longer runs, but DC has both volume and quality over it

>>95259630
Morrison's X-men is over rated.

would you count Ditko Dr Strange in that list?

>>95259576
>Annihilation, and Annihilation Conquest which are better events than anything DC has done

No.

>>95258593
It's not like DC's A-lister like Superman, Wondy, GL and Flash have HAD a shit ton of good runs. A-lister are always destined to have mediocre runs.

>>95259650
what are better events?

>>95259659
Wonder Woman has actually had quite a few high-quality runs

also it's funny you didn't mention Batman

>>95259660
There are no good events in the first place.

>>95259660
>>95259675
Crisis on Infinite Earths and Final Crisis are both good.

>>95258593
Born Again was concurrent with DKR and Miller had already done some Batman with O'Neil in Wanted: Santa Claus-- Dead or Alive
Casuals deserve to be gassed.

>>95258646
No one will because you're right.

>>95259649
Sure, and while i kinda agree, it's still very enjoyable and I would put it before say, Earth X

>>95259032
Maleev's art for one thing. So stiff and static. The paneling is not very good either, though that's likely Bendis' fault.
>>95259169
>Prison Arc
Wasn't that Brubaker or did Brubaker start writing when he got out of Prison?

>>95259169
both those arcs are Brubaker

>>95259738
That's not called not aging well.

Gillen's Journey into Mystery

>>95257649
Deep in terms of themes? Can't say there's many. Not that they didn't drop deep themes or got philosophical they were always limited to a single arc. X-Men is filled to the brim with them (and that's where the "x-men are an allegory for racism / homosexuality / etc come from), but like I said, small enough to cause ripples yet not big enough to be seen as such.

Only full series I can think of that go all out on themes are X-Men Legacy Vol. 2 and Foolkiller. Squadron Supreme could be but I haven't read it.

In a way it reflects how most marvel themes are character specific while dc works with archetypes and ideas. There's no idea behind Captain America. There's only Steve Rogers.

>>95258743
Wanna do a comparison.

Watchmen is pretty much on another level. Nothing marvel compares, and nothing DC either.
TDKR is comparable to Daredevil on quality. Both are Miller at his prime.
Sandman isn't really DC - it may factor in it but it was though specifically as a standalone thing, there's no denying DC's non cape corner came out much better than Marvel's Epic imprint, despite having some crazy potential.
(Morrison's) Doom Patrol. I'd say the Sienkewicz era New Mutants, specially legion stuff. but unlike DP, New Mutants had a tendency to have one bad arc - one good arc right until the end. 80s Strange is also crazy.
I haven't read Swamp Thing, can't really make a comparison.
I'd say X-Men Legacy vol. 2 stands up to All Star Superman
Earth X blows Kingdom Come to smitherens if you take both as "playing and deconstructing with the company's themes". If you take both as "love letters to an era", marvels is a worthy contender.
To add, to things I feel Marvel outdid DC at was straight out fantasy and sci fi. classic Thor, Strange, Eternals and Fantastic Four, plus the space X-Men stuff, did things I haven't seen on DC, or simply outperformed them.

>>95258646
lol gringoshit doesn't even compare to a single euro nation much less the world.

The Death of Captain Marvel is and will always be one of the most underrated comics ever made.

>>95259770
there's a whole load of comics from that general era that are great, come to think of it

>>95259774
hey look another tripfag to filter

>>95259774
>lol gringoshit doesn't even compare to a single euro nation much less the world.
kek, especially considering that the very best burger comics are usually written by british people

>>95259659
>Superman
Binder/Maggin with Swan (anything Swan drew was good), Kelly, Morrison
>Wondy
Marston, Perez, Azzerelo (though this is divisive)
>GL
O'Neil/Adams, Marz (HEATfags HATE him, find out how he revitalized the franchise with this one simple trick), Johns (some people hate the rainbow Lanterns though)
>Flash
Fox/Infantino, Messener-Loebs, Waid, Mannabooch

Fucking read comics

>>95259812
don't forget Busiek on Superman

Manabooch Flash is mediocre

>>95259767
It was a lot fresher back then, the murky style is pretty big especially on the indie side these days

>>95259791
>hasn't filtered Bismuth yet
Lol you must be pretty goddamn new

>>95259821
I prefer Manabooch to Waid, I don't even like Waid that much he made Wally's whole character MUH LINDA, but I know I'm in the minority there. I also forgot Johns (Wally only, his Barry sucked and was unfinished)

>>95259841
he just hasn't posted something annoying that I've seen recently

>>95259738
>Maleev's art
I personally love the art. But what about the David Mack/Bendis arc? I find that one extremely compelling. No one can show trauma like Mack can and that kid was messed up

>>95259812
They're only great if you read nothing but contemporary capeshit. Most of those arent a quarter as good as Sandman or Swamp Thing. That's what the discussion on this thread was about.
Also
>No silver age Superman but adding shit like Kelly

>>95259871
all those Wondy runs are great

making Sandman and Swamp Thing the baseline when they're among the best is retarded

>>95259871
>Binder/Maggin with Swan
>Not Silver age
Nigger what?

>>95259883
Read the thread, faggot. It's a thread for great comics, not good or decent comics. Even if you compare to the best capeshit out there, those WW runs still don't match it.

>>95259871
>>95259904
Perez and Azz Wonder Woman stack up with the best

I haven't read Marston

>>95259890
Didn't read Binder. My bad.

>>95259871
If you don't rate Hard Travelin heroes or Binder Superman you can go fuck a rake dude. You also have very clearly never read Perez Wonder Woman.

>>95259660
Final night if you can ignore how bad the ending js

>>95259910
I wouldn't say they stack up against Doom Patrol, Animal Man, Miracleman, Miller's Daredevil, Starman and more.

>>95259961
Miller Daredevil and Miracleman are on their own plane, but they'd sit comfortably among the others.

>>95258593
damn if this is the best marvel has to offer...

>>95259955
Chalk Drawings (WW v2 #46) can go against any single issue DC story from that era. Maybe not Miracleman but it has the advantage of being its own self contained universe. If we're talking about MM we might as well bring in stuff like Cerebus, Hellboy or Love and Rockets.

>>95259781
List them. All I remember was Slott still being shit and Aaron ruuining the xmen with schism

>>95259981
Just so you get your (you) >>95259961
And I think you're totally overrating Starman. You've passed over stuff like Hellblazer or Hitman (since we're apparently going into the 90s). Also this original post you replied to here, >>95259812 was not trying to rate these stories as GOAT DC stuff, just refuting the claim that A listers were doomed to mediocrity

>>95259812
>Marston, Perez, Azzerelo (though this is divisive)

He is only divisive because of the amazon retcon. Seriiously the only thing that people had a problem with.


Also O'Neil GL DOES NOT age well.

>>95259812
>Marz
>revitalized the franchise
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Also, you forgot Wolfman's run, especially the Mind over Magnetism arc, and Jones' run, especially Mosaic.

>>95260013
No, only nonreading SJWs had a problem with that, a lot of people had issues with making her a straight up demigod (and eventually a god), and some people just can't stand Azz's writing

>>95260000
JMS Thor immediately preceded it
Brubaker Cap was still going (although I think it was wrapping up)
Fraction Thor (which honestly gets way more hate than it deserves)
Gillen's Uncanny X-men
PAD's X-Factor
Remender's X-Force
Hickman's Fantastic Four was just kicking off

>>95260054
>HEATfag detected
But seriously, GL could have been so fucking dead with Kyle, the fact that Marz was able to make that work (though I think Morrison also deserves some credit with his portrayal in JLA) is a pretty big achievement
I've never been a Wolfman fan, and I'll admit I've never read Mosaic

>>95260063
>which honestly gets way more hate than it deserves
it deserves all of it and more

>>95260114
I disagree, its only glaring flaw was editorial forcing Fear Itself to be an event

>>95260122
he is an aweful Thor writer. Just can't seem to think of a way of executing a story that isn't complete bullshit

>>95259774
>Sandman isn't really DC
Stopped reading right there. You're a complete moron.

>>95259871
I though it was about "deep" comics?

If we have to judge by sheer quality, Marvel is pretty much on equal footing for most of it's IPs. They have this thing where they have whole periods of good comics ie early cosmic marvel, utopia x-men, claremont x-men, classic avengers, etc etc.

>>95260222
Correct me if I'm wrong: Sandman's published on vertigo and has some sort of pseudo canon status where they exist in DC but not really as Gaiman still has control of what is done with them.

>>95260246
>Correct me if I'm wrong
Not only is Vertigo DC, but Sandman started before Vertigo was a thing also the first issues are published with the DC logo on the cover. The obsession of trying to separate DC and Vertigo and not give DC the credit for the Vertigo comics is one of the dumbest things.
The rights things is a bit more complicated, comics published at Vertigo are half owned by DC and half owned by the creators. If something is out of print for [set number of years] then the property goes directly to the creators and is 100% creator owned. if not, DC and the creators bot own the work and are involved in adaptions and shit like that. Everyone asks for Neil's permission to use his characters because not only is Sandman one of the most respected comics in the medium, but Neil is also a very sweet guy.

>>95260246
>Gaiman still has control
Jesus fucking christ when will this meme die? DC always "asks Gaiman for permission" when they do stuff with the characters, because they don't want to cause a shitstorm with retard fans like you chimping out over "using his characters" and they don't want to burn a bridge with one of their most talented and famous creative partners. Neil always "graciously grants" it because he knows he has no fucking right to say otherwise so he doesn't want to come off whinging like Alan Moore, and he is a pretty nice dude.

>>95260284
Gaiman has no rights to the characters whatsoever, from his own website
"I don't own Sandman. DC Comics does. If you want to make something using the material I did for Sandman, you have to ask them.
Feel free to ask me or my agent about things I control. But I'm not going to be any use for Sandman."
http://www.neilgaiman.com/FAQs/Sandman

>>95260081
I mean, the character's not bad, but he utterly destroyed the GL mythos to create his world. As opposed to Wally, who still had unique foes, while also dealing with stuff Harry had encountered and building on it.

>>95260370
It was surely an editorial mandate that Marz made the best of

>>95260284
>Not only is Vertigo DC, but Sandman started before Vertigo was a thing also the first issues are published with the DC logo on the cover. The obsession of trying to separate DC and Vertigo and not give DC the credit for the Vertigo comics is one of the dumbest things.

If we count everything published by DC, then I'll go forward and say Marvel's Elric of Melbibone adaptation beats the living shit out of any DC art this side of swamp thing and watchmen. Not to mention marvel vastly outclasses dc in terms of sci fi.

>but Sandman started before Vertigo was a thing also the first issues are published with the DC logo on the cover.

kind of a moot point if Sandman is under vertigo's publishing deal.

>Sandman one of the most respected comics in the medium.

That's a rather bold statement to make. One of the most respected comics among anglos, definitely. In the medium? Not so sure.

>>95260344
Thanks for clarifying the issue.

>>95260482
Sandman features a Superheroine as a vital character and the current Dream of the endless is literally her child.

Starlin's Infinity Saga
Everything Hickman
Bendis and Brubaker Daredevil
Age of Apocalypse
Days of Future Past
David Incredible Hulk

>>95260482
>That's a rather bold statement to make.
not that anon but he's right. Sandman is the comic that reached the biggest audience outside the medium. It's won awards that are normally reserved strictly for literature (and they changed the rules to prevent comics from winning it again). It is also the comic most taught in university courses, for comics and for literature.

Sandman is a literary masterpiece like Watchman is a masterpiece of the genre.

>>95260535
Hickvengers is dogshit compared to Secret Warriors/SHIELD and F4/FF, it's just not that good in general

>>95260482
>Marvel's Elric of Melbibone adaptation
Not only is it just adaptation, but it's trashy genre fiction.

>>95260482
Swamp thing, Hellblazer, Morrisons JLA or O Neils Question.


Please in terms of quality and quantity DC outclasses Marvel and its more noticeable now with the current comicbooks.

>>95260535
None of them are as good as the best DC stories

>>95260537
I disagree, its art is not nearly as good as most of the stuff mentioned here, frankly only people who focus on the literary element of it rather than the element that actually makes it a comic (the art) would even make that claim. Oh and what you said about it being taught in colleges is complete bullshit. Funhome and Maus are by far the most taught, with Watchmen and DKR being the most taught of the big 2. An ~80 issue series is almost impossible to teach in a college literature course unless the professor is a sadist, or its a course that is exclusively centered on Gaiman.

>>95260583
they don't study the entire 80 books, but specific arcs and books. Maybe Maus is more studied but I doubt even that tops Sandman. And Sandman is taught FAR more than Watchmen and DKR

The art varies greatly, but in general I think it's fantastic and suits the type of book it is.

>>95260566
>>95260576
You know you could simply say you haven't actually read as much Capeshit as you think you have instead of autistically saying "n-nuh-uh" every time someone gives you an example which results in you being unable to refute it with an actual argument. It'll save everyone time and effort.

>>95260643
I have an English lit degree dude, you're just making shit up. There's no way to verify this obviously, but at least at my uni I never saw a single class have Sandman, but I took a class with Fun Home in the curriculum and saw it offered in several others. A friend of mine at a different uni also read it for a course. I also know it made a big stink at Duke because some retard felt he was being forced to go against his religion by reading a comic with lesbians in it.
>inb4 that's just cuz gays
by this logic Game of You would be used for LGBT classes if you were actually correct.

>>95257649
>>95257649
>>95257649

I hope it's alright if I ask this here. Wanted to get Watchmen but there are tons of versions. My Amazon lists Watchmen International Edition as the cheapest one. Should I get it or is there a superior TP version?

>>95257896
Marvels
Fury MAX My War Gone By
Stray Toasters

>>95260907
>Stray Toasters
Good taste.

>>95260859
>some retard felt he was being forced to go against his religion
same thing happened about 5 years ago with Sandman, complained about the mild nudity as well as some of the subject matter. some muslim complained. There was a bunch of news about it but the teacher said that it was in the curriculum before the student took the class and if he read it properly he would have known he would have been offended and known not to take the class

>>95258593
>Earth X

Oh come on, it's barely even a story. Just Machine Man and blinded Uatu dicking around shilling Alex Ross' autistic fanfic about the true nature of Marvel Universe.

Better choice is Marvels. Good story, nice art, emotionally touching B-plot and highly memorable use of street level POV of Marvel's history.

>>95259420
You don't need a narrative/story to be a good comic.

>>95260950
I remember that, that was a specific comic class they were also teaching Y the last man of all fucking things (they also complained about that)

>>95259482
Eh I liked 1602.

>>95257649
I remember having a really long discussion with some friends as to what Marvel's Watchmen was. None of us could come up with a definite answer.

>>95260781
Are they actually as well crafted as the stuff DC pulls out? Like I mean no disrespect but look at another example like 52. That maxi series has the greatest story concerning c-list heroes trying to keep the world together when the a-lists are gone.

Does marvel come anywhere even close? Maybe Maximum Carnage when it had a bunch of c-list heroes help Spidey fight Carnage but thats about it. Even then it was more spider-centric than anything.

I want something in equivalent quality of DC's best and all I see is some shitty authors being reccomended whose writing is an attempt of a high schooler being pseudo-intellectually deep.

>>95260986
God Loves Man Kills, which the best x-men movie copied elements of or Spiderman vs Wolverine where Spidey is out of his element and starts questioning himself.

Man where are the named fags like Norrin Radd or Ulti-mate when you need them to tell OP he is full of shit

>>95260994
as a straight up superhero comic I think Simonson's Thor is one of the best cape comics ever written. At least up until Ragnarok. I still love the stuff after like Throg, but I understand why people make that the cut off for the great part of the book

>>95260994
>all I see is some shitty authors being reccomended whose writing is an attempt of a high schooler being pseudo-intellectually deep.
No you're being recommended extremely good comics that you haven't read and won't read so you can keep your viewpoint that Marvel hasn't produced anything at DC's level simply because you haven't read it. You're going to continue to be dismissive no matter what comic is brought forth. Quit being a shitter and read good comics instead of continuing this embarrassing display of fanboy autism.

>>95258369
lol. bet you think batman's good as well right now?

>>95261098
no. But Miracle Man probably will pay off like Vision, King is best with short stories

>>95261127
12 issues isn't short.

>>95259420
lol you can say tht about most of DC's classics too my man

your fanboy is showing

>>95259420
I feel like you're a faggot or a female if you don't understand requiem.

>>95258593
DC has nothing in the league of Kirby's FF and Ditko's Spider-man though.

You're just a casual.

>>95261205
in the world of Marvel and DC it is. Well...maybe not current marvel where everything is a mini series

>>95261316
Dated shit living of nostalgia?

>>95257649
I've always seen it as Marvel having more interesting long time runs, but DC having better focused stories, which make for more impactful and GA-friendly comics and that's why they became much bigger classics than Marvel's.

The constant shoving of continuity in pretty much all Marvel comics really bring some of the stories down. For instance, I don't know if it was editorial mandated or Miller really wanted to do it, but I felt that Captain America was totally out of place in Born Again.

>>95259286
>Marvel's good stories get lost in time, because even Marvel forgets about them.

I was listening to a podcast called Comic Books Are Burning in Hell, 3 or maybe all 4 of the hosts used to work in comic shops. They mentioned how AWFUL Marvel's collections department is about keeping shit in print long enough to gain any kind of long term popularity like Killing Joke has. Which is why DC kills in the bookstore market.

>>95261318
No it isn't. That's a short run not a short story you stupid newfag fuck.

>>95261252
I think I was right. I'm guessing it was a female, not a faggot.

>>95261539
>I've always seen it as Marvel having more interesting long time runs, but DC having better focused stories
This is just as wrong as the "humans pretending to be gods etc" bullshit.

>>95261779
Care to elaborate, or are you just gonna say "wrong"?
I did give an example of what I meant with the inclusion of Captain America in Born Again, which to me ruins the focus of the story just to shove in some Marvel Universe crap. Year One has none of that, for instance.

Marvel has some great long time runs, like Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil, etc. but no single stories that were as impactful and manged to cross over to mainstream audiences as Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, etc.
Even mediocre stuff like The Long Halloween (talking about the writing, not the art) works better as a stand alone story and is therefore easier for anybody to read. That's why you can pin down a handful of DC stories for their cultural impact, while you just have to be more general when you want to talk about Marvel's impact and influence.

This is not to say Marvel has no good standalone stories nor DC has no good long runs, but that's the trend.

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>>95257649
The two recent Carnage series have been excellent, and I get the feeling they're going to be read for a long time.

Ditto with the last few Moon Knight series.

>>95257649
What comic is this?

>>95262175
>I did give an example of what I meant with the inclusion of Captain America in Born Again... Year One has none of that, for instance.


And that pretty much is all anyone needs. You're an idiot. there's a pretty damn good reason why YEAR ONE wouldn't be thick with "lore" and connections.

Maybe more telling is that you shit on The Long Halloween for being mediocre while saying it's self contained. Which is one of the exact (and few legitimate) reasons people give for hating it; that it isn't self-contained and includes every one of this villains. Its accessible for normies because it acted as a year two to Year One and, due to it's place in the timeline, isn't too thick on lore while still using all the friendly faces one would want to see. But for you to sit there an act like Cap is out of place in Born Again while saying TLH is "saved" (my word, not yours) by being "stand-alone". That's just absurd.

You've literally just parroted meme opinions you read on blogs or heard on podcasts. It's why anon said it's just as wrong as the meme opinion of "Marvel is humans pretending to be gods, dc is gods pretending to be human".

>>95260555
So... just like Sandman?

>>95262326
O'Neil's The Question.

Hub City just is bad

>>95257649
trial of hank pym stories are pretty good

also gruenwald cap with scourge of the underworld is a good read

DC has a lot of over-rated deep stories. Every time I read some "classic" story like TDKR or The Killing Joke I come away thinking that was a great story but it hardly blew me away like it was built up to be.

Marvel has plenty of classic stories that are just as good as anything DC put out but they don't have as many fags out there hyping them up as the GOAT.

>>95262866
Do you find yourself saying the same thing about "old" movies as well?

Elektra Assassin
Hooky

>>95262904

My favorite director is Alfred Hitchcock.

I don't see the connection anyway. Most of the DC classic stories aren't older than Marvel's stories. And many of them are done by writers who also put out great content for Marvel too, anyway.

>>95261316
You're not entirely off base here. Marvel has good runs, DC has good arcs/minis. For other most part. DC has great self-contained stories whereas Marvel has some legendary longruns like the first hundred FF or the second hundred X-Men.

>>95258743
>Kingdom Come
by far, in my opinion, the weaker one of the list

much rather see The New Frontier in than Kingdom Come

>>95259642
>90% of comics you've listed do not belong here.
They sure do, especially if you count mediocre shit like the Killing Joke for DC

People referring to 4 issue storylines as runs need to get the fuck out. You're the definition of a fucking casual.

>>95261316
>DC has nothing in the league of Kirby's FF
Other than Kirby's New Gods?

>>95259032
>>95259297
Everything that Bendis does that people hate today is present back in those stories. Shitting on the idea of a Super-hero, killing off characters to replace with his own OC's, ignoring character voices and continuity, and he has a profound misunderstanding of how time works in the Marvel U.
>>95259169
Those are both Brubaker stories, which followed directly after Bendis.

Bendis did end with one hell of a good new status quo though.

>>95259812
Why do people reccomend o'neil GL? The guy has good runs but GL is super outdated if you read it now. It has fucking Ollie dress up as the great spirit hero of the native americans or some shit.

>>95264049
Green Lantern-Green Arrow is fantastic and still holds up incredibly well. And how can you not love Ollie dressing up to try and scare some loggers and then trading punches with Hal over which is the best way to save the forest

>>95257649
This is just edgy not deep

Everytime we have this thread, a lot of people with respectable opinions show up, and there are people who are not so deep into comics, but they're on a good way and their lists are somewhat casual but respectable. And then, there are some faggots who think Kingdom Come is a masterpiece

Does Marvels EPIC line from the 80's count?
Some good shit there.

To all the people insisting on Sandman, Watchmen and Swamp Thing being unmatchable, have you even considered Savage Sword of Conan and the Elric adaptations?

>>95264636
>Elric adaptations
I read one and it was utter shit. I must have read a bad one though cause people are constantly praising it.

but if we are going outside Marvel and DC then there are lots of things that match Sandman and Watchmen.

>>95264716
true, but the point of mentioning them is that they were published by Marvel (although to be fair I think I confused Pacific Elric for Marvel Elric)

>>95264784
oh, I forgot they were published there for a while

What's with people's infatuation with DoFP
I find it kinda lame compared to Protheus, both Phoenix Sagas and a load of other Claremont content

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so deep

>>95264988
If you're going to post bottom of the barrel trash then you might as well post the ones from DC.

>>95264933
maybe because it created an interesting timeline that is used a lot. It's a setting that is the X-men's foe, not any specific villain.

>>95258261
>Jenkins duds
He is an asshole

>>95264716
>>95260555
>Throwing shade at Elric
>On MY /co/

This will not stand.
Get ready......SOON

>>95265715
criticizing something as "genre fiction shit" while discussing this medium gotta be the dumbest thing you can do

>>95260555
>>95260576
The argument turned to judging the quality if everything published under Marvel and DC. I'm gonna stand with >>95261539 / >>95262175. In that respect. And if we take everything into account, Marvel did a lot more varied sci fi and fantasy.

>>95260537
>Sandman is the comic that reached the biggest audience outside the medium.

Herein lies the problem. I still believe it's mainly an anglo phenomenon and it doesn't have as much penetration in the rest of the world unless they suck anglo dick.

But you are probably right. Honestly, I'm starting to have some contempt for comics that become famous with non-comic audiences. I don't feel they truly appreciate what comics can be.

>frankly only people who focus on the literary element of it rather than the element that actually makes it a comic (the art) would even make that claim.

as a matter of fact, a lit student friend of mine does exactly this. He reads exclusively comics made by novel writers.

>>95264716
Quality varies because they have multiple series of adaptations

Besides, There's only three Elric adaptations made on marvel, part of an the first wave of Elric comics, published on three different companies. The story is decent for an adaptation. What shines through is the art, Craig Russel was a beast with a pencil.

>>95266327
>He reads exclusively comics made by novel writers.
eww, that's just wrong. Some novel writers can do the transition and Gaiman started as a comic writer before moving to novels, tv and movies. But I read a review of a comic by Margarette Atwood and it's clear she doesn't understand the medium, just from the review I could tell so no, wouldn't read that. I really don't think Sandman falls into that problem though

So you would recommend the Marvel Elric comics? I like Craig P Russell.

>>95265039
DC didn't do a 9/11 thing mate, it never happened in universe. I'm sure they've done some other cringey shit related to disasters but 9/11 in 616 is so retarded

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>>95266656
I'm pretty sure DC did publish a 9/11 thing, but it was just artists doing pieces, not a story

>>95266730
This is actually a great picture, but the speech bubble kind of ruins it a little.

>>95266527
>So you would recommend the Marvel Elric comics? I like Craig P Russell.
And i recommend the Pacific comics run...up until the Vanishing Tower. Because Bane of the Black Sword has the worst fucking art imaginable.

>>95260138
his Thor mini was pretty badass and epic, just the main series was kinda a wet paper bag, but some of that could be blamed on the flat art

>>95260535
AoA is the best superhero event ever

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>>95266893
I agree, but it is a reference to this

>>95264933
Changed the face of the X-Men. Same with Age of Apocalypse. The X-Men have to stop two different timelines from happening, and they always worm back their way into the realm of possibility. It was also a period where the X-Men became increasingly sci fi and weird. it was s step the right direction

>>95262175
You seriously want him to name 25+ long runs only for you to go "well see, I uh didn't mean that DC didn't have good runs, they're just not known for it like Marvel ya know"? It's like saying water isn't wet, you're just so clearly out of your depth of understanding, you think because Watchmen, DKR and Kingdom Come are 3 of DC's biggest books the company is famous for self contained stories. And for casuals such as yourself, I guess that is true.

>>95260555
>trashy genre fiction
This is a pretty fucking ironic thing to post in /co/ of all places, and in a Marvel/DC thread to boot.

>>95259779
This nigga knows what's up.

>>95262384
>Which is one of the exact (and few legitimate) reasons people give for hating it; that it isn't self-contained and includes every one of this villains.
How isn't it self contained? You don't need to read or know anything about any of the characters before reading it, nor you need to read anything afterwards.
And in the DC extended universe, when Batman's YEAR ONE happened there had already been several superheroes before, and there were some at the same time.

You're just a fucking retard who doesn't even know what he's talking about.
And again, you don't elaborate on anything, you just resort to ad-hominems and mis quotes without any proper counter arguments or even elaborating what's your fucking point.

>>95258646

Not fighting you, I'd put it at my #2 favorite comic after Dark Knight Returns.

>>95266730
I meant it didn't happen in universe my bad

>>95268307
why would other superheroes show up in Batman's origin story?

>>95259538
>Fucking Savage Sword of Conan

Mah nigga!

>>95259687

Born Again literally came out after Dark Knight Returns. Your casual is showing.

>>95268409
I didn't know February 1986 was after February 1986

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>>95268409
Imagine being this fucking retarded?

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>>95268361
Savage Sword is great.
I don't really find most of DC's 'deep' single story comics to my liking. Not that I don't respect them, or at least some of them, anyway.
If I were going to pick a favorite long run from DC though, it's pic related. All others are #2 or lower.

For me it always worked this way: someone comes to me and say, hey, anon, check this HOT stuff from DC and I go and enjoy it and I say: thanks, this was really good I love DC!

but I don't bother to read what's really going on at DC's universe in "real time" so I don't explore DC stuff, I just get it from my niggas

while at the same time I'm reading literally all marvel trash by myself so when something good come along with the trash, I only notice that this story was gold much later because I was filled with trash up to my ass, and I keep eating marvel trash and wtf, I LOVE TRASH, I JUST CAN'T STOP, I'M ADDICTED TO SHIT

>>95266327
>And if we take everything into account, Marvel did a lot more varied sci fi and fantasy.
I much prefer DC's fantasy in Hellblazer, Sandman, Books of Magic, The Demon and Swamp Thing to Marvel's stuff.
In terms of scifi I think Silver Age Superman, LoSH, Kamandi and the New Gods are a pretty good offering against what Marvel has. Cosmic is the only place where Marvel really routs DC

>>95266730
Alex Ross made this art?

>>95268695
I largely agree, but it's hard to beat ASM 1-141 for single superhero action.

>>95261603
>They mentioned how AWFUL Marvel's collections department is about keeping shit in print long enough to gain any kind of long term popularity like Killing Joke has. Which is why DC kills in the bookstore market.

Yeah, it's been mentioned a lot. I know at Comics Beat years ago they gave the reason as being that Ike doesn't want to keep too many volumes in print. It some cases it makes sense that you don't want to too many things in print because you eventually run out of warehouse space, and a lot of Marvel's stuff is serialized so there's bound to be multiple volumes, but there's no real good reason Marvels would be out of print for example.

>>95269440
This is a critical read for how the bookstore market is working (but it is very long):
http://www.comicsbeat.com/tilting-at-windmills-257-looking-at-bookscan-2016-more-than-10-million-sold/

DC has weirdly really, really shrunk it's publishing line in the last few years. 2014 had 2746 titles, 2015 had 1690, and 2016 had 1214. They have consolidated some trades (like the Vertigo ones), but that drop off is insane.

Marvel had 3352 titles in 2014, 1882 in 2015, and 1841 in 2016. That volume confuses me, because they continue to make place lower than DC and Image, but their higher prices seem to make up for that.

>>95266327
Marvel has always put little to no effort in promoting or using their supernatural/fantasy side of their universe, please explain why you think Marvel does fantasy better.

>>95268695
Kamandi is good sci fi, but it doesn't feel particularly impressive - to me it shines for it's adventure elements. LoSH is too rooted in traditional capes to have noticeable sci fi, but I haven't gone in depth in them. I feel space avengers stuff (ie kree skrull war) and captain marvel are on par with them
New Gods is of course top DC sci fi. It's also strongly rooted in Kirbyisms (ie: naming a character scott free. Even though I love it, you can't pretend a pun in the super serious sci fi world isn't fucking retarded).

Cosmic is just a fraction of sci fi, but in the end, marvel has had always had a big boner for space. X-Men, Avengers, Captain Marvel, FF, Silver Sulfer, Galactus', all of them go pretty into space lore.
Now that I think of it, Starlin's pre-Infinity warlock was knee deep in deep themes. Lot's of Warlock's themes was about discovering himself and fighting fate.

I have completely forgotten about hellblazer. I guess you are right - Besides Conan and Strange (both great fantasy centric books) Marvel didn't have as many books as DC had. Though, honestly, neither company pulled out much fantasy compared to other comic scenes

>>95266527
There's 3, 2 Epic Illustrated and the most accessible one in Marvel Graphic Novel #2, BUT, it's a big spoiler for the books. Russel is on art for MGN and one Epic Illustrated iirc.

>>95258856
I'm seconding fury my war gone by, easily one of my favorites of all time.

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>>95270299
>New Gods is of course top DC sci fi. It's also strongly rooted in Kirbyisms (ie: naming a character scott free. Even though I love it, you can't pretend a pun in the super serious sci fi world isn't fucking retarded
The name is given to him by Granny Goodness for very specific reasons. (Page 22, The Pact, New Gods #7. P4) It's the opposite of retarded.

>>95259420
>paper thin faux philosophy,
But watchmen and kingdom come get a pass?

>>95270659
This tripfag has proved himself retarded at every turn. Don't even bother.

>>95270687
Watchmen has what? Pragmatism vs moral absolutism? It's a character story for the most part.
Kingdom Come I agree with though, Waid's moralfaggotry overrode all good storytelling instincts.

I love O'Neil's Question so much, it's so depressing how poorly the character has been treated in New 52

>>95271097
complete collection TPBs WHEN

>>95271116
Or at least reprint volume 1, the only one that's absurdly expensive

>>95263017
This one I can get behind. I mean, there has to be an explanation for Marvel outselling DC for decades, even if all the clasic stories are from DC. Anon gave a good explanation.

>>95262175
DC has a higher number of high quality runs.

>>95271411
the explanation is X-men, basically

>>95261316
>MUH OLD COMICS ARE BEST
I'd take Binder/Swan Supes over early Marvel anyways.

>>95266150
You sound like a self hating pretentious imbecile.

>>95258743
I liked whatever Happened to the man of tomorrow more than all star superman.

To me that was the "canon ending" of the "real" superman.

>>95257649

Can't remember the name but there was a Spiderman / Wolverine where they go hunting Wendigo in Canada for killing a boy but it turns out to be a local child molester.

>>95271603
But All Star isn't the end of Superman, have you never read DC One Million? Also Superman giving up on heroics to have a quiet life is a fucking awful ending for him. I know all his villains were dead, but he would never abandon the earth like that.

>>95271915
Whatever Happened is a real crummy story. Waaay below Moore's level. Killing Joke gets a lot of unwarranted hate but it's much better than Whatever Happened.

>>95270659
It makes sense in context. Doesn't stop it from feeling odd.

>>95272106
>It makes sense in context. Doesn't stop it from feeling odd.
Are you literally fucking retarded?

>>95272201
are you unironically asking a tripfag that

>>95272201
Can't you really imagine that someone may not like it?

>>95272277
Read what you wrote again, idiot. Read it again and again and again until you realize what a retard you are. Hint, it's not related to any comic book or quality of said comic books.

>>95272239
Even by usual standards of tripfaggotry, this guy might be THE dumbest person to ever post on 4chan.

>>95272420
I'm telling you I think the name Scott Free is fucking retarded. Sorry if it didn't come through.

You are gonna flip out at people's opinions, you might as well leave 4chan.

>>95271554
Eat a cock if you can't respect or acknowledge the classics for what they are.

>>95272420
we say that about every tripfag who decides to talk out of his ass

>>95272470
I already told you it's not related to that, you fucking imbecile.

>>95272510
No, this guy is legit brain dead.

>>95272639
You're being a prick that refuses to explain his reasoning. I'm sorry that someone thinking a name is "off" not even bad or terrible is enough to get you so assblasted. Even if he is a retard tripfag that's hardly an excuse to try and outdo his stupidity.

>>95268341
I'm not saying they should, quite the opposite. But I feel the same about Captain America in Born Again. He didn't need to show up. This unnecessary guest appearances and ties into pointless continuity are far more common in Marvel than in DC, and I think it's a part of what makes their stories not so popular among the general audiences, even when they're the most popular in their monthly fashion.

>>95272701
>he takes his trip down to make this pathethic post
You are truly the dumbest person to have ever posted on 4chan.

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>>95272735
Cry all you want. You'll always be a faggot.

>>95272795
dumb phoneposter

>>95272859
Sorry that I didn't feel the need to jump onto my PC to call him out on his autism. I'll make sure to remember it next time.

>>95272911
So you admit to samefagging by using your PC and phone. You truly are the dumbest person to have ever posted on 4chan.

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>>95272940
Anything else you want to accuse me of?

>>95270112
Midnight sons, Darkhold, Englehart and Roy thomas Dr Strange, Marvel Tarot, Marvel Witches, Dr Strange the Oath, Triumph and Torment etc

Just because modern Marvel doesnt give a shit about magic doesn't mean it was always the same case

>>95270112
It literally has the hyborian age as backstory

>>95273493
Trash except for Dr Strange. Try again

>>95273751
>Trash except for
Give a reason that they're trash besides that you haven't read them.

>>95273996
The plot at midnight sons is laughably bad. Darkhold has the shittiest 90s art imaginable.

Tarot barely has a plot and Witches turns the blond topaz into a minority. Completely rewriting her appearance in werewolf by night.


Your precious marvel sucks with the supernatural. Seriously wanna reccomend any blade or ghost rider comics that aren't complete shit?

>>95271915
I rather have Superman from Keatinge's story as the end, it's basically like The Big Chill

>>95264636
>Savage sword of conan
Dark horse did it much better

>>95275314
THIS, Marvel BTFO. Im glad people are waking upto their shit

>>95257649
>thread about evergreen comics
/co/mblr shits it up with mediocre events and mediocre comics because of the Bronze age meme.

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thanks for the reading suggestions Marvelfags

>>95275554
>>95275556

testing something

▲

>>95272506
I literally said I loved Binder/Swan in that post you illiterate. I just don't think that Lee's WORDSWORDSWORDS style is as good as the evolution of the genre we got in the Bronze and Modern Age with guys like O'Neil, Wein, Miller and obviously the British invaders

>>95276361
Wein was more important as an editor than a writer

>>95276384
His style heavily influenced guys like Morrison and he expanded the genre into pretty wild places. Gardener Fox as well.

>>95274290
Shut your whore mouth, Triumph and Torment is fucking great

>>95276494
I said they were all trash except for strange. Learn to read faggot

>>95276452
I'd say hiring Alan Moore to write Swamp Thing did more to change the industry than actually creating Swamp Thing

still an important creator, but his time as editor is his truest legacy.

>>95276384
So was Stan Lee.

>>95276926
Pretty much, yeah. Comics were sort of floundering before Stan kicked Marvel to the top.

>>95276970
Yea but he is outdated. After Lee all the best comic writers produced better books in DC save for maybe Claremont.

>>95277334
Miller Daredevil is better than his Batman

>>95277359
Bullshit. Year One alone trumps anything. MAYBE Born Again comes close but thats it.

We even have Neils Question, something better than DD or Batman.

>>95277614
Both his original run and Born Again are better than Year One, it's not even a contest.

also why bring an entirely unrelated series into a discussion of Miller's works

>>95277614
Gerber's Foolkiller > Neil's Question

also The 'Nam is better than anything Vertigo/DC released

>>95277644
Foolkiller? The joke character from Sterns run in Spiderman?

Also bullshit Nam is better than Hellblazer or swamp thing

Okay, I'll bite:

Daredevil: Born Again
Classic Claremont X-Men (especially the Dark Phoenix Saga)
Annihilation
Annihilation: Conquest
Gerber's Howard the Duck
Gerber's Man-Thing
Silver Surfer Requiem
Miracleman
Fury MAX
Savage Sword of Conan
Kraven's Last Hunt
Miller's Daredevil
Classic Strange (80's especially)
The Infinity Gauntlet
The Death of Captain Marvel
Dan Abnet's Guardians of the Galaxy

>>95278152

While I don't agree with all of these; it is a pretty solid list, but it still pales in comparison to the Top of DC's output of greats.

This thread is the reason why I cannot take Marlelcucks seriously.

>>95279163
Miller Daredevil, Gerber's stuff, and Fury MAX alone stack up right alongside DC's best

although Miracleman probably shouldn't be counted as Marvel.

>>95277641
Electra saga has aged badly. Neither born again nor year one is better than DKR.

>>95279217
>Elektra saga has aged badly
I could not be more disgusted with anyone than I am with you right now

>>95279333
It has, no matter what /co/mblr or r/comics think.

>>95279488
how has it aged badly?

>>95279211

I agree with Born Again, and a lot but not all of Miller's Daredevil run. Born Again I think is the second best comic, and the best "In continuity comic" ever. However Gerber's stuff I don't rate as high as the best of DC, especially when taking into account Vertigo (which I am as if we're including MAX and things like Savage Sword there's no reason not to include Vertigo).

>>95277644
>The 'Nam is better than anything Vertigo/DC released
It's cool to let people know you appreciate The 'Nam but you don't really need to make yourself look like a contrarian idiot in the process.

>>95279859
>muhhh British drug addict is good

>>95279957
There are many Vertigo books that are better than The 'Nam. Which doesn't mean The 'Nam sucks, or that it isn't great.

>>95279989
Human Target, Jonah Hex and.... ?

most of Vertigo is just druggy magic meta bs

>>95280071
Swamp Thing
Hellblazer
Sandman
Preacher
Transmetropolitan
100 Bullets
Doom Patrol
Lucifer


Just to state the most obvious and agreed-upon.

>>95280071
What titles are "druggie magic bs"?

>>95271603

What? It was the laziest hack shit Moore ever wrote "and then everybody died. The End." Get the fuck outta here

>>95280138
>Swamp Thing
>Hellblazer
>Sandman
>Preacher
>Doom Patrol
>Lucifer
>books of Magic
>Kid Eternity
>everything Milligan, Morrison, Carey, Gaiman etc... did

>>95280147
Judgement Day is the hackiest shit Moore wrote
The Big Chill is the best Superman ending that Moore wrote

>>95280138
probably all the good ones

>>95280136
>Transmet
>good

>>95280257
Yes, it is.

>>95280248
I tap out with gay hippy wiccan shit, regardless of how interesting the art is

>>95280266
it's ok

not on the level of other British Invasion stuff

>>95280313
I can agree with that.

>>95280170
How the fuck is Lucifer related to drugs?

>>95280273
>I pretend I've read any of these titles, regardless of the fact that I haven't

>>95270980

Yeah man, that's what Watchman has. Ya got it. This anon solved the code!

You can't really just boil down Kingdom Come, Watchman or even Requiem to one basic philosophical question or argument

>>95264988
I like the alternative explanation on why Dr. Doom was crying over 9/11-that Doom had a device that would destroy the Fantastic Four once and for all and that his weapon was hidden on top of one of the Twin Towers and it was set to go off on September 12, 2001.

>>95280561
Kingdom Come is very easy to boil down

OLD SUPERHEROES GOOD, NEW SUPERHEROES BAD

>>95280655
I thought it was
>wahhhhh Cable and comic books are popular with kids for once

>>95280561
Oh fuck you, you can mention basic thematic elements quickly. And KC is easily boiled down to REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>95270980
I wish Busiek had written Kingdom Come like he did with Marvels. Mark Waid is ass.

>>95259659
All of DC's A-listers have been pretty consistently well written for their entire history's.

>>95259687
>>95268409
Just because they were released at the same time doesn't mean they were written at the same time.

>>95280561
Directly comparing Watchmen to stuff like Kingdom Come and Requiem and trying to imply they're on the same level is a crime that should get you arrested.

>>95280772
Nice backpedal. He already had done Batman with O'Neil though

>>95280673
that's what NEW SUPERHEROES BAD is

>>95280824
>>95280772
Oh and DKR was almost certainly written first because he had to drawn that one too and Born Again was published years after his original DD run, which means he got the idea for the story later on.

>>95261316
How about you read the topic, faggot. He's talking about "deep" comics like Watchmen and TDKR, not prosy early runs of comics by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.

>>95276570
Moore would have broken in somewhere else and we would have gotten an equally wild story. Knowing Moore he was looking to flip the script on anything.

>>95280824
>>95280838
I don't even get your argument. He was writing Daredevil years before he made his name on Batman and basically wrote it as a Batman story. You think because he wrote a fucking one-off holiday special with Denny O'neil that means he was some prolific Batman writer prior to his Daredevil work?

>thread about intelligent and deep comics
>people list the most straight capes ever
Oh but I guest it used some plot that a lot of hacks used year after year and it became a cliche.

This is why I can't take people that prefer Marvel seriously. Some guy even tried to argue that the recent "Marvel cosmic" run spread out a few ongoings and numerous minis is "intelligent comics". It's fine to have a preference but don't lie to yourself. It's like if you only watch Hollywood blockbusters and then want to critique Wong Kar Wai. Just shut up and watch your Die Hard and Predator and Silence of The Lambs.

>>95280926
>>thread about intelligent and deep comics
>>people list the most straight capes ever

I mean, the OP specifically asked about Marvel and DC. I could have named Cerebus and the Incal if he was asking for deep comics in general.

>>95280895
Eh, maybe. But it does matter that Moore respected We in, that run of Swamp Thing is still one of the better comics of the 70s but it gets underrated by the majority of comic fans because Moore's run is so damn good and such a different beast from what other american comics were doing in the early 80s.

>>95280926
>I literally cannot read

>>95280952
DC has actually done more than straight capes.

>>95280974
It literally sucks to be you then.

>>95280975
Marvel has a few examples but they're all written by Ennis and they're all MAX

and I guess The 'Nam since that other anon would probably get offended if I don't ride its dick

>>95280926
Yea this so far Marvel fags here can't even name any good comics. It's a shame I have no idea how marvel got popular in the first place.

>>95280998
Marvel Graphic Novels are good. Spidey vs wolverine, dr strange shamballah, triumph and torment, God loves man kills, Emperor Doom, Killraven, a cool Ka Zar Story.


There's a bunch of cool Dr Strange, Daredevil, X-Men, spidey, avengers and even Inhumans graphic novels in there.


Maybe Marvel fags here should actually read comics before grasping at straws to match up with the big greats of DC. Marvel Almost NEVER advertises their greatest stories only their shitty event arcs. So you have all these casuals reading utter shit.

>>95280920
You said Born Again tard. Stop changing your argument so much. And you know absolutely nothing about Batman if you think his DD is a Batman clone. Matt completely and utterly different from Bruce both in personality and backstory (if dead parents make you Batman then we're gonna have to give Superman and Spider-Man some sad news), the supporting cast is way too different, especially from the O'Neil Bats it would have to be based on, the Kingpin is way too street level of a big bad and there's far too much comedy built into the run. At best you can compare Elektra to Talia, the Hand to the League of Assassins, and Bullseye to the Joker (that one being a big fucking stretch, frankly Bullseye influenced Miller's Joker much more than the other way around). Maybe pick up a comic man, because every subsequent post just makes you look less and less like you've ever read anything.

>>95281005
several anons have named several great Marvel comics that stack up with the best of DC
>I have no idea how marvel got popular in the first place.
DC was basically just treading water when Stan and Jack blew everything up then X-men got its hooks in people in the 70s and didn't let go until it crashed the market

>>95258261
His Hellblazer run is strong too. Probably not even top 5 but definitely blows out shit like Milligan and Diggle, actually does the character justice.

>>95280998
My War Gone By is great but Punisher is far from deep and layered.

>>95281052
>Spidey vs Wolverine
I mean... I'm not gonna repeat myself. I will say Into Shamballa is really underrated but... some of those other examples...

>>95281116
it's still a stellar comic

>>95281105
Jenkins Hellblazer's biggest weakness is coming right after Ennis's

>>95281105
Milligan's run is great though. Diggle, Ellis, Azzarello and Mina are the duds.

>>95281057
>You said Born Again tard.
That's not even me you fucking nigger, that post is from 24 hours ago.

And if you don't think Miller's entire tenure on Daredevil wasn't inspired by Batman you're absolutely deluded. O'Neil was the editor on his Daredevil run for fucks sake.

>>95281128
Punisher? It's alright but still not a worthy title for this thread.

>>95281156
if Killing Joke is, Punisher MAX is

>>95281165
Different guy. I don't think Killing Joke is worthy of this thread either. That book is casual bait.

>>95281165
Well, Killing Joke isn't. Still, it's short and it is a bit layered even if not particularly deep. Punisher is just violent and shoot-y.

>>95281116
Didn't like the other Graphic Novels? Idk I'm a fan for the art alone. The Black Widow one was really good, it's where she is chasing a telepath serial killer bent on eliminating other telepaths. Modern day marvel graphic novels like no more humans were utter shit.

Also read spidey vs wolverine it's actually good man. It's when spidey accidentally punches a woman to death and finds out he is out of his element in the spy thriller world of wolverine.

>>95257649
THE
INCREDIBLE
HERCULES

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465KB, 480x480px

>>95281144
>Milligan's run was great though
Yea being so boring and insipid that you literally kill the flagship vertigo title is absolutely great

>>95281302
Are you seriously trying to blame him for Vertigo as a whole losing popularity and DC slowly but surely trying to kill the imprint? It's not like he said "dear editors, I want to kill Constantine". Its Aldo telling that a lot of people familiar with Constantine actually likes the pew pew magic faggot, most of the rebirthdrones actually want another JLD.

>>95281343
comics fans don't know what they want

>>95281146
Sorry it's an anonymous fucking imageboard. I think most non powered street level heroes after 1960 are in one way or another inspired by Batman, but Miller wasn't writing Batman by proxy when he wrote Daredevil, he wrote fucking Daredevil. This hand-wringing and obsession over Batman is just so fucking casual, all you know is Batman so you just inject that focus onto everything. And frankly O'Neil being the editor does not mean shit, Miller's Matt is closer to O'Neil's Ollie than he is to O'Neil's Bruce. O'Neil did other comics you know? But I suppose when O'Neil wrote GA/GL he was just writing all the characters as Batman because he wanted to write Batman so badly.

>>95281299
Yeah I'll bite. Marvel has good stories like this. They might be not thought provoking but God damn they are really really fucking fun.

Maybe this is coming from someone who enjoys Gleason's Superman but comics are meant to be crazy fun. See also Mighty Avengers and Ewing's New Avengers, ultimates and contest of champions.

OP can go fuck himself. And any other DC fag bashing marvel.

>>95281343
Are you implying that if we move Ennis or Carey's run into Milligan's place it doesn't sell better?
You know Milligan wrote JLD right?

>>95281380
clearly O'Neil's Question was just Zen Batman, just as Miller's Daredevil was Red Batman

>>95281400
Comics aren't meant to be anything specific, you smelly tard.

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403KB, 245x202px

>>95281400

>>95281404
>Are you implying that if we move Ennis or Carey's run into Milligan's place it doesn't sell better?
Not really. They are better but it doesn't mean they'd sell better. Carey's run is my favorite but even his Unwritten's sales went down and down and interest and talk regarding it died down despite starting strong both in sales and critical acclaim. It was just a case if being ignored and drowned out by popular shit even by DC.

>>95281404
>You know Milligan wrote JLD right?
For 6 issues and then he left because editorial wanted JLD to be literally the Justice League but with magic lasers and magic shields instead of super strength and laser eyes.

>>95281491
His six issues were fucking garbage anyways and he was setting that up in the first place with the "top secret magic arsenal" thing