90s Marvel Thread

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"Wtf happened"

>>95208140
PAD Hulk is amazing. But you're just here to be a shit.

>>95208140
Fantastic Four went downhill once DeFalco started writing, which confuses me since he's not bad at all on Spider-Man or Thor.
People focus on Gruenwald's Cap run like it's one of the best things he's done when Squadron Supreme and Quasar are infinitely better.
X-Men was still doing well until after Operation: Zero Tolerance ended. Then crippling mediocrity until Morrison's New X-Men run gave the franchise a shot in the arm.
Infinity Gauntlet and Infinity War were both awesome stories.
Larry Hama's Wolverine run is just as important to Wolverine as Claremont's take on him.
And finally, Daredevil got really mediocre in the 90s between Fall From Grace and Flying Blind. And Fall From Grace isn't a terrible story, but definitely shows the downfalls of 90s storytelling tropes. I remember the Fathoms Of Humanity arc being cool, but it's been quite a while since I've read any of that. None of the rest of DD in that time until Flying Blind was all that interesting to me.

>>95208320
DD at least had something nice with Man Without Fear.

But, honestly, Chichester is just bad, don't bother defending any of his stories, he was a literal mistake on Marvel's part, how did they even allow "Alan Smithee", that's Archie tier incompetence.

>>95208320
>X-Men was still doing well until after Operation: Zero Tolerance ended. Then crippling mediocrity until Morrison's New X-Men run gave the franchise a shot in the arm


Wrong, Onslaught was nothing good. It started sucking after the muir island saga then picked itself back during age of apocalypse. Seriously onslaught was so disjointed and long with 100s of pages of nothing happening. It was utter shit.

90s marvel isn't that bad. It maybe that DC did more genre defining stuff for their respective characters during that era like Batman or Superman and Marvel's attempt at doing that resulted in the fucking clone saga but 90s marvel had good gems too.


The avengers were utter shit even with Byrne but Operation Galactic Storm was perhaps the best story of the era featuring the Shiar-Kree War and it was awesome.

We had Busiek with his awesome avengers run during the time X-men were hitting themselves into a coma.

Kevin Smith's Daredevil wasn't that bad and bought itself out of mediocrity after the early 90s fucked it up. Busiek's Thunderbolts is legendary and so is his Iron man.

Avengers forever was awesome, age of apocalypse was cool too, Waid on his marvels mini series, Quasar was the best green lantern comic series ever. Hob Goblin Lives was a cool miniseries by Stern that wrapped out a nearly decade long mystery that had already gotten stale within the first two years. Defalco was a mediocre spider-writer after the clone saga but his earlier stuff was good unfortunately that's pre-90s.


Lets not forget Starlin's death of captain marvel, thanos quest, infinity gauntlet and warlock and the infinity watch that were awesome gems too for cosmic marvel.


90s Silver surfer was great to the point he got his own tv show in the 90s even if it was utter shit.


Unfortunately 90s DC just wrote better shit; we had Robinsons starman, Gaiman's sandman, birds of prey, Dixon on anything batman period, Superman was awesome too at the time, PADs young justice, Waid on kingdom come, Waid on Wally West's Flash book that defined the mythos to the point that Barry Allen's stories are trying to copy it's success, Morrisons super amazing run on JLA, his even more amazing DC One Million concept that his severely under-utilized... their output was overall amazing and character defining.

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I remember the time Johnny Storm tried to molest The Thing

Read Marvel Comics: The Untold Story.

In summary:
>Marvel was bought and sold behind the scenes by a revolving door of cigar chomping midget Jews constantly changing around the editorial team
>nobody wanted the EIC job because it meant having to go between temperamental creators and idiot businessmen
>in '91 the X-Men relaunch sold leagues better than anything had in decades and created an inflated comics bubble
>businessmen demanded that Marvel exceed those insane X-Men sales every year leading to more gimmicks: relaunches, new spin-offs no one asked for, events and crossovers, and most famously cover variants
>excessive editorial interference from people like Bob Harras, bigshot artists like Rob Liefeld and Todd McFarlane taking away more creative control, and better working conditions at DC drove off key creators like John Byrne, Chris Claremont and Walter and Louise Simonson
>said bigshot artists reneged to form Image and started shit talking Marvel
>by the mid-90's the sales bubble was bursting but executives were still demanding better sales
>basically became the X-Men line, Spider-Man line, and Everything Else line
>Marvel lays off creators for the first time since it changed its name from Atlas to Marvel
>instead farms out Avengers, Cap, Iron Man, Hulk to Image in a desperate bid for sales (Heroes Reborn)
>finally bought for good by executives from Toy Biz: Ike Perlmutter aka Supreme Overjew and Avi Arad
>Mark Gruenwald's soul is ritually sacrificed in order to buy the company time
>retard Bill Jemas becomes VP, meets Joe Quesada and Jimmy Palmiotti at some kind of Hollywood swingers cocaine party where they tell him "make us EIC and give us unlimited creative control and we'll fix Marvel for you"
>Marvel enters the early 00's, the only era more creatively bankrupt than the 90's or late 00's

>are there good 90s marvel comics
Generation X and Thunderbolts come to mind immediately

>>95208888
>>Marvel was bought and sold behind the scenes by a revolving door of cigar chomping midget Jews constantly changing around the editorial team
do we know who those Jews were?

>>95208140
Wow, that torso just keeps going.

>>95208140
At least we got some good vidya out of it.

>>95208546
I thought Zero Tolerance came before Onslaught?

>>95208664
>Starlin's death of captain marvel
damn, I thought that was fro the 70s or 80s

what a lot of people think of as the 90s for Marvel was actually a very specific period between 94-97.
Prior to that things were pretty normal and after that everything got rebooted and made more or less normal again.
But holy god that two to three-year space is tragic.
A lot of weird runs, even if they aren't EXTREME they are just kind of floundering.

>>95208888
>Avi Arad
wasn't he one of apair of dudes who got himself stupidly in trouble with Gene Simmons by turning to his partner and saying in Hebrew, "now we gut him like a fish" during a meeting with Simmons

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>>95208320
I think DeFalco's FF gets too much heat. Even if it's never gonna be held up as one of the standout runs of the book, it's still got a lot of redeeming points. Johnny hadn't been regressed into a manchild yet, Reed had a beard (which is unarguably his best look), Sue continued to mature into a leader (this time without any weird Byrne stuff), and best girl Lyja. It's not, however, a very good run for Ben.

>>95209263
I unironically like the design. The long hair and the outfit works great for both males and females. Natural gender equality, sexual exploitation and equal treatment right there.

>>95210084
it is he's retarded

but he's also correct about 90s Marvel mostly just sucking for the X-Men and Spider-Man

>>95210198
>jokes on you, i can speak that too
that will NEVER not be funny

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I miss when Peter had balls

>>95210198
>>95210462
>pitched Saban an idea for a new Saturday-morning cartoon: Kiss meets X-Men, the Marvel comics superhero team. Saban liked the concept well enough to convene a meeting with Avi Arad, then C.E.O. of Marvel’s toy division.
>At the appointed time, Saban, Arad, and Simmons sat down. The meeting was going well, and the three began to haggle over numbers. Then Saban turned to Arad and, referring to Simmons, confided in Hebrew, “Now we gut him like a fish.” Without missing a beat, Simmons—who, unbeknownst to Saban, was born Chaim Witz in Haifa, Israel—replied in Hebrew, “You asshole. I’m one of you.”

Avi Arad fucked us out of Kiss meets the X-Men.

>>95210537
>Then Saban turned to Arad and, referring to Simmons, confided in Hebrew, “Now we gut him like a fish.”
I hate Avi too, but that was clearly Saban's fuck up

>>95210474
pic unrelated?

>>95208140
>Are there any good marvel stories during the 90s?
Priest Black Panther started in the late 90s (although it was part of the Marvel Knights imprint which some consider to be the end of 90s Marvel), it's pretty solid

>>95210678
well, I guess the way he ran off was rather woman-ish

>>95208888
>early 00's, the only era more creatively bankrupt than the 90's or late 00's
That era was definitvely the best era for Marvel since the 80s. Late 2000s was Marvel spamming events.

>>95210370
wasn't Jim Lee's X-men good?

>>95211448
Yeah but that ended pretty soon due to all of Marvel's top guys (and Jim Valentino) leaving to start Image

>>95210537
It's sort of an odd feeling when you go through most of your life not believing in stereotypes, then eventually finding that there's truth in some of them

>>95208320
>People focus on Gruenwald's Cap run like it's one of the best things he's done when Squadron Supreme and Quasar are infinitely better.

It might only be Gruenwald's third best work, but it's the best Cap run hands down, and the fact that he kept the quality up for over a decade is nothing short of amazing.

>>95210537
>Chaim Witz
Kinda off topic, but is that his real name? I think I heard Lois on Family Guy say it.
Just want some confirmation here.

>>95212439
It is. Well, I doubt Gene's got a ton of people in his life who call him "Chaim," but that's the name he grew up with.

>>95209167
Carl Ichan and Ron Perelman (not to be confused with Ron Perlman). Both didn't care the least about comics and just wanted to wring every penny out of the company before taking it behind the shed, shooting it in the back of the head, and burying it in a shallow grave. But they had a huge knockdown, drag out public fight over who'd get to drain the life out of the company.

Arad and Perlmutter saved Marvel from their clutches. For all the justified shit we give Ike, it's important to remember that Marvel wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for him. Arad and Perlmutter actually like comics, and want the company to last.

Also, Ike looks and acts like an IRL supervillian. If anyone is going to mismanage Marvel, it might as well be someone who fits the part.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/remembering-two-titans-marvel-duel/
https://archive.is/XIfSe

>>95211630
>all of Marvel's top guys (and Jim Valentino)
h-hey
no bully

>>95212478
Huh, i learned something new and Family Guy wasn't bullshitting once.

>>95210537
>>95210198
>>95211873
I can't find a single actual source for that story. Does anyone have one? Or is it apocryphal?

The only place I can find that referenced it is Gawker, and we all know first hand how trustworthy that site can be.

>>95208258
that was early 90s. Mid 90s marvel was still going strong.

>>95208888
Liefeld was literally a child. If he had creative control of his books, it's because editorial gave it to him, and because they were tired of Claremont.

Also, Marvel Knights WAS good. And resetting continuity worked, as the Ultimate line proved.

>>95210243
>Johnny hadn't been regressed into a manchild yet

It's true he hadn't completely regressed into a manchild like in the 00's/10's but he kinda had signs of regression during Byrne's run. But even Byrne's version felt like an adult.

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>>95212528
What are you doing on the internet, Other Jim? My car's not gonna wash itself. Don't forget, two coats of wax.

>>95211683
Are Wolverine's claws made out of hardened jizz or something?

>>95212880
that's his bone claws. i think they took that slightly weird shape after someone broke them, and they got put back together or something

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>>95212880
>>95213183

90's comics are best comics.

they didn't try to be movies or novels. they were COMICS. in-your-face, fun, single-issue stories with a fast pace. they were unique instead of bad copies of films (few, wide panels for no reason) and novels (over-written BS by failed novelists).

>>95213301
one of the first US comics I bought. Thought it looked super-painful

>>95212507
Ike's a piece of shit, but what he's been doing to the FF and x-books lately isn't about the comics but sticking it to fox.

>>95208285
lmao

>>95212528
He really was the odd man out. You had two ASM/Hulk artists with followings, and foir X-Artists also with followings- and Valentino. His GoTG is enjoyable, but his art was always a little awkward and he just sucked at character design.

>>95208285
PAD's writing is kind of grating in retrospect.

>>95214703
Todd's bubblegum faces too.

My facorite window into the world of 90's comics is probably the letters pages in Savage Dragon. Larsen would print pretty mich anything. Dude has a big mouth, but his love for comics is clear.

>>95214703
How so?

>>95214363
Strong argument there tripfag.

>>95211683
What does he keep in all of those pouches?

I recently began reading 1999 Amazing and 1998 Iron Man both from #1

Spidey is shit pretty much until JMS and JRJR step in

Iron Man I'm less than 10 issues in but its just OK. No interesting villains yet and Tony having a secret identity isn't used rather interestingly, just the usual "time to become the other guy no one knows I am iron man" type thing comics do a lot

>>95214605
Valentino was the guy who had been in comics long before all of them and actually self-published comics back in the 70's, so he had experience in this sort of thing. The only other person who had something close to self-publishing experience was Erik Larsen (he and some friends published a fanzine)

On top of that Image really got started when Valentino, Erik Larsen, and Rob Liefeld had dinner with Dave Olbrich, EIC of Malibu.

>>95215266
Spare ammo
Medical supplies
Assorted futuristic devices
Biscuits
Crackers
Water
Spare pouches

>>95215399
That actually makes sense.

>>95208140
>Wtf happened

This has been told in that one Marvel book. The execs took over, fired Shooter, and brought in people who had no idea what they were doing.

>>95215275
>Spidey is shit pretty much until JMS and JRJR step in

Yeah late 90's to right before JMS came on board was a pretty bad period for ASM. The only saving grace is that Spider-Man isn't as big a manchild as he is in late 00's/current Marvel.

>>95208140
>So was marvel really creatively bankrupt back then?

>>back then

you think they've been creative lately?

nigga, you stupid

>>95208140
Thunderbolts was pretty damn good traditional cape comic stuff.

>>95214835
>>95214912
hello i am a character and i am snarky

which pad hulk character does this describe
all of them

>>95208546
Onslaught was good; the issue with OZT being the downward spiral moment, comes from the fact that it was the moment when Bob Harras and Mark Powers decided editorial would be writing the book, not the actual writers.

Harras, after shilling vanilla goody goody Magneto under the name of Joseph, decided out of the blue that Joseph would turn out to be an imposture and that Magneto had been in hiding since 1995. He also declared UXM would not take part in OZT save a one-off issue, forced Lobdell to put Marrow (a character NO ONE but Harras liked) onto the team, and basically decided OZT would be Iceman, Sabra (another Harras waifu), Dr Reyes, and Marrow versus Bastion.

Harras refused to let Lobdell reveal who Bastian was (the reveal ended up happening in a Machine Man one-off no one read) and vetoed Lobdell's attempt to make Magneto's return make sense in that Magneto kills Bastian, Nick Fury, and basically EVERYONE in Nick's Helicarrier after SHIELD arrested Bastian in X-Men #69.

Lobdell rage quit and furthermore, so did Joe Kelly and Steve Seagle, who replaced him and the X-Books basically hit the point of no return once Harras ordered Excalibur canceled and the X-Men roster reset to the early 80s roster, with Marrow in place of Rachel Summers.

>>95212636
What have you been smoking? Mid 90s Marvel went bankrupt and had to sell all their movie rights to not die - from which they STILL haven't recovered.

>>95214831
And now he has variant covers from Hentai Foundry artists.

>>95208888
I should note that what got Quesada the job as EIC was that when Ultimate Marvel was announced, Harras basically wanted to treat it like Marvel later treated the all-age Jeff Parker Marvel books of the late 00s. IE d-list writers and little to no promotion.

IIRC, Harras even told Jemas point blank, that he was giving Ultimate X-Men to Terry fucking Kavanaugh while giving Howard Mackie Ultimate Spider-Man to write as an "I'm sorry" apologia gift for having to take him off of Amazing Spider-Man.

Quesada point blank said to Jemas, that those were bullshit moves and that if he was in charge, he'd give Bendis Ultimate Spider-Man and head hunt Mark fucking Millar to write Ultimate X-Men, paying him whatever he wanted, then give the books a huge push to sell them to people who wanted a continuity-light version of X-Men/Spider-Man to sell to the newbies who saw the Spidey/X-Men movies that were just now coming out.

>>95210243
Actually, it's a great run for Ben (and Sue) with Johnny and Reed being the ones that got shitted on.

Remember, very first thing DeFalco did was kill Byrne's reviled Johnny/Alicia coupling and went as far as saying she was a Skrull, to explain away why Byrne turned Alicia into a worthless whore.

Johnny gets shitted on with a good amount of much needed karma for being a royal shit for the first time EVER and Reed was "killed off" so Sue could finally shine as the leader of the team.

>>95212636
Liefeld got control over New Mutants because sales were in the toilet and even Simonson admits she had reached a huge point of writers block and basically the only idea she had for revitalizing the book was to literally introduce a Poochie on the team: a second werewolf mutant named Cougar who would become the focus of the series.

But Liefeld got away with what he did mainly because Bob Harras is outright gay for Liefeld. Pure Liefeldsexual in that he has a HUGE mancrush on Rob that leads him to constantly giving Rob second chance after second chance.

>>95216588
That's kind of why I think it's a good run for Johnny. That Johnny/Alicia shit was fucking repugnant (and Byrne's FF is my favorite run) and Johnny needed some comeuppance for it. And I think he came out the better for it only for Onslaught and Heroes Reborn to come along and hit his reset button.

>>95212670
Disagree. Byrne's Johnny cucked his best friend and drove him from the team and even the issue where one of his fans killed himself emulating him, had to be rewritten to make Johnny less glib about it.

>>95216506
And?

>>95216728
Well, you can't expect a beautiful woman to be with an ugly man, can you? That wouldn't be logical!

The kids of today should defend themselves against the nineties.

>>95216929
Well memed.

>>95216983
Come on, look what they did to us!

Are they really creatively bankrupt now?

Yes. Yes they are.

>>95216111
Sampson, most of the Pantheon members, The Leader, Abomination, Gravage Hulk and Sabra don't have the snarky personality.

>>95214835
BEHOLD!
Peter David! A guy who at first manages to make you believe his characters are well developed... until you realize that all of them are David himself, that he does with them whatever he wants, and that all of them are totally retarded.

Peter David! A guy who, when he doesn’t know what to tell, fills the comics with his opinions about politics, movies, TV, and books. Thus you read a comic and a blog at the same time. And if there’s still space left in the book, he tells a good joke, no matter if off-topic.

Peter David! A guy who seems to be building up an AWESOME story but then, after 50 issues you find that his plots are going nowhere at all.

Peter David! The writer who has been doing nothing for decades while laughing at readers.

Peter "I gas gyps with my farts" David!

>>95217146
are you fucking mental
all of them do except abomination, sabra and gravage hulk during the very end, characters that barely appear during the 90s run

how the hell do you say samson and leader and pad's secret organization of donut steals do not have snarky personalities. all of the pantheon guys are snarky in some way except the retard

>>95210272
It isn't bad, but needs some brushing up. Could lose the giant hammer chain and useless leg-straps. Colors need to be balanced, too.

>>95209263
Man, I wish Deodato still drew like this instead of contracting out favela dwellers to trace Power models.

>>95217210
Copypasta is till stale
>>95217258
>how the hell do you say samson and leader and pad's secret organization of donut steals do not have snarky personalities. all of the pantheon guys are snarky in some way except the retard
Sampson was never snarky. He was used as the straight man and the fucking voice of reason the whole time! And as you said the retard wasn't snarky nor where Hector, Achilles, Agamemnon, Delphi, Jason, and Prometheus. I will give you though that Ulysses and the other chick got most of the spotlight most of the time though. There was also Brian Banner, And General Ross.

>>95215853
History repeating itself, right now.

>>95208140
>Are there any good marvel stories during the 90s?
Yes, plenty. Marvels was in the '90s. Thunderbolts was great, most of the ancillary X-Men books were pretty good, some of the 2099 stuff (Spider-Man, X-Men, maybe Punisher if you like the idea of an over the top satire of badass anti-heroes). Kelly and Priests Deadpool runs.

>>95208888
You should take that book with a massive grain of salt. The writer has a very clear agenda and thus sanctifies some people (Gerber especially, bringing him up in ways that have little to anything to do with the overall narrative) and demonize others (Lee and Shooter); basically anyone or anything that he felt was a force against creator's rights is evil while Jack Kirby was a poor man who just wanted his art.

>>95210537
Good, Kiss fucking sucks and if you like them you're probably going through a mid-life crisis or are white trash.

>>95210474
>Pym swatted away his superhero wife
>villified to this day
>Peter went full Eddie Kingston on his un-powered normal human wife
>it's an obscure scene to this day

>>95218409
Fun fact: MJ was pregnant at the time.

Another fun fact: Pete (accidentally) backhanded a woman to death in a cemetery because he thought she was Wolverine.

And yet another fun fact: Reed smacked Sue in the face and told her to shut up.

But truly, Hank Pym is history's greatest villain.

>>95218409
That was the only time Pym hit his wife right? Or were other instances retconned in?

The reason I saw suggested for why Pym carries the stigma of being a wife-beater and Peter doesn't(even though what Peter did was more severe) is that Pym didn't really have as many defining characteristics/didn't really stand out as much as a character, so "wife-beater" unfortunately became one of his defining things

>>95218248
who wrote the book?

>>95218248
Shooter's blog is the same way. He did great stuff, but Roy Thomas saved Marvel by taking on Star Wars.

>>95208320
>X-Men was still doing well until after Operation: Zero Tolerance ended. Then crippling mediocrity until Morrison's New X-Men run gave the franchise a shot in the arm.
Financially, sure. But the book was in a creative rut during the 90s.

>>95218627
Second time really. But no one cares about the first one because it was a "This situation is dangerous! I'll knock her out to keep her safe!" thing that happened years earlier. And I can name like half a dozen old movies that had that.

The second time is the damning one because it was treated as damning despite Hank's personal circumstances. This is also why Reed and Pete get a pass.

Reed's actions were treated as necessary and were thus excusable.

Pete, like Hank, was in a highly volatile emotional state, but unlike Hank, his actions were treated with understanding.

Hank Pym just got thrown under the bus.

>>95210415
built like a slice of cake

>>95218627
He only hit Jan once; a major plot point for the Austen run and ultimately Avengers Disassembled, is Jan being a complete and total cunt and making up additional instances of abuse, simply so she could turn Hawkeye (one of the Avengers who stood by Hank during the entire thing) against him, since Jan wanted to fuck Clint and the only way to make Clint do so, was to poison the entire relationship between the two friends.

And the punchline? She openly tells Wanda that she will secretly MURDER any unborn kids she has with Clint, because while she wants Clint's cock enough to irrevocably ruin his friendship with Hank, no fucking way will she ever bare his kids.

>>95219014

I'd argue that Phalanx Covenent was the turning point. Marvel basically wholesale whored out the X-Books via jacking up their prices starting with that storyline and Gen X, the much hyped New Mutants V2.0, was a massive disappointment that failed to live up to the hype.

Also, Age of Apocalypse saw everything going on hiatus, allowing fans to bail on the books after Marvel jacked up the prices on the X-Books, simply because they knew X-Fags would take it up the ass

>>95208888
>businessmen demanded that Marvel exceed those insane X-Men sales every year leading to more gimmicks: relaunches, new spin-offs no one asked for, events and crossovers, and most famously cover variants
SURE DOES SOUND FUCKING FAMILIAR DOESNT IT.

>>95219482
I'd argue that Generation X was a great book.

>>95210474
>>95210678
>>95210799
>>95218409
>>95218602

post the panel after where Mary Jane is on the ground with a broken face leaking blood calling out his name.

>>95216674
>Googles 90's Rob Liefeld
>He looks like what gay men would consider a twink
Sounds legit.

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>>95219602

>>95216674
>But Liefeld got away with what he did mainly because Bob Harras is outright gay for Liefeld. Pure Liefeldsexual in that he has a HUGE mancrush on Rob that leads him to constantly giving Rob second chance after second chance.
Wait, is that how Rob kept failing upwards during the New 52?

>>95218602
>Another fun fact: Pete (accidentally) backhanded a woman to death in a cemetery because he thought she was Wolverine.
Not backhanded. Full Power Punched her face in.

Then again, it was LITERALLY Suicide-By-Spiderman

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>>95208140
>Are there any good marvel stories during the 90s?
I can think of one OP

alla you can eat shit, the 90s were great

>>95218248
I can't say I see any of that in the book. Stan especially is held up, if anything, and it seems neutral in its coverage of the latter years of Kirby when people like Miller were taking public dumps on Stan and is forthcoming about the fact that Jack was having serious memory problems by then. To the literal last page of the book it's still presenting Stan and Jack as friends when it counted.

With Shooter, the only problem is that literally EVERYONE who talks about Shooter from back then talks shit about him. So the only contemporary sources for the writer are that Shooter was a madman. And the only opposing perspective you'll find anywhere on Earth is from Shooter's own mouth. I say this as a Shooter apologist.

>>95213301
It honestly feels like Cyber should be one of THE big Wolverine villains after Sabretooth and Ogun but he just shows up every few years to die. Same with Ogun.

>>95217146
>Sabra
Speaking of this and OZT, Lobdell originally wanted to end it with Magneto coming back fully committed to war against humanity over what happened and the X-Men (at least in adjectiveless) would've been just Iceman, Cecelia Reyes, Marrow and Sabra with basically nothing at all (no mansion or advanced tech, just caught in the middle of a human vs. mutants war). For whatever reason though, editorial would absolutely not allow Lobdell to have Sabra as part of the team ruining his plans and causing him to quit. They brought in Kelly and Seagle and ran them out in a year by basically writing the books for them, driving them to DC.

Eve of Destruction (the last storyline before Morrison started) is basically a vaguely reworked/highly truncated version of what Lobdell wanted to do post OZT.

>>95216538
I mean on the one hand it worked. On the other hand it's what started us on the Mr. Bendis' Wild Ride (and USM isn't that good).

I also wonder if that's the reason Mark Bagley and Adam and Andy Kubert got the USM and UXM art gigs respectively (since both were pretty heavily associated with the '90s Spider-Man and X-Men books).

>>95219564
Generation X was definitely great minus the Hama period which killed the book. The Lobdell/Bachalo stuff in general is just really kind of weird more than being a straight superhero comic. Generation X is a pretty apt name because it kind of goes for that GenX mid-'90s young person quirkiness.

Also it was in no way a failure. Generation X #5 (first issue back from AoA) was getting close to 200 orders per store on average (at least that's how I think the order index numbers on Comichron are supposed to work). No clue what the pre-AoA figures were since I can't find any pre-1995 data and there's a year of time missing because of Hero's World bullshit and I have no clue if those sales figures are available.

When Gen X first comes back onto Comichron's charts though it's selling well over 100,000 and was a consistent Top 10 seller until Lobdell's last issue (#28) where it suddenly dropped to 20th though the sales figures themselves were unchanged. Faerbers run seems to have held around 40-50k and by its last issue it was still selling something like 36k. In no way was Generation X a failure despite how Marvel has treated the characters and everything related to it in the 16 years since it ended.

>>95225463
Bagley had no fucking choice but to draw Ultimate Spider-Man.

Even with the issue with finding a writer for the book, Bill Jemas has ZERO doubt towards who would draw Ultimate Spider-Man.

Bagley was told point blank, "We are going to offer you Ultimate Spider-Man and if you say no? You're blackballed from ever working at Marvel again..."

As for the Kuberts; IIRC Millar was given a list of available artists who Marvel knew damn well could keep a monthly schedule, and was told to pick from it.

Only when the book sold super well from day one, was Millar allowed to bring on one of his preferred artists (Hitch) for Ultimates.

>>95212507
Arad DOES like comics, it's why he gets his grubby hands over everything. But as a toy guy his days are past. Toys aren't the money makers anymore. It's just like how comics in the 80s realized they aren't for kids anymore, now toys/merch isn't for kids anymore either. Arad still doesn't get it.

I doubt Perlmutter ever liked comics. He just wanted a business he could throw his weight around in, and boy did he get it

>>95210474
Funny how they tried to character assassinate Peter here but it still wasn't enough. Selling his daughter's soul to the devil was just a natural progression i guess.

>>95222481
Monochrome retcon, the series.

>>95219113
For all this talk about treating characters with mental illness better, Hank gets shit on too fucking much. There needs to be a story that's about putting the slap to rest once and for all. One that tells people that Hank was having a psychotic break, literally could not control himself, has severe guilt over the incident and Jan has spent years helping fix his mind and reputation. It's sucks that you can have a character brainwashed into killing a few hundred innocent people including his friend and every one forgives him even lets him join the Avengers and run his own school, but Hank slaps his wife while severely mentally ill and he gets labeled a wife beater forever.

>>95216538
>Quesada
as much shit as we give the guy for becoming lazy he was the one in the late 90s that realized their creative talent was bankrupt. It's why he created Marvel Knights, and to this day it stands as some of the best Modern Marvel comics

>>95216674
Louise is great but yeah maybe she ran out of ideas. They could have found an actual writer instead of a man child. There was no excuse for going with Liefeld. Hell, they could have gone back to Claremont

>>95227023
Busiek literally did that story. Everyone ignored it

>>95227417
Why is every writer at Marvel obsessed with making him a wife beater

>>95227721
cause either they think he's a shitty character, or they are shitty writers who don't know what to do with it. The only ones since Busiek that know what to do with him oddly are Slott and Cage.

Remender seemed to have a plan with Rage of Ultron, but he didn't get to complete it. I do think Rage of Ultron is one of the best Hank stories though, maybe THE best

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>>95227076
>There was no excuse for going with Liefeld.

You and many others may hate Liefield, but the fact is that he created Cable, Deadpool, Domino, made the failing New Mutants into the X-Force.

>>95228753
>made the failing New Mutants into the X-Force.
unforgivable!

>>95228753
>karl kesel
>inker

Please don't overlook that when you post Rob's Hawk & Dove. Kesel's a masterful inker and was covering Rob's useless ass the whole way.

>>95228894
Was the New Mutants goood at any point?

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>>95227076
>There was no excuse for going with Liefeld
No excuse needed, Liefeld rules.

>>95229010
Up until Inferno. Once the Magik story was resolved it was directionless.

>>95228985
Every time I post something about the art of Liefield being good some anon comes and says it was the inker fixing Liefield shit.

>>95229093
Inferno was a mistake across the board.

>>95229110
Because we know what his shit looks like when an inker isn't fixing it. He's incompetent.

>>95229158
Liefield made a Nike commercial with Spike Lee, he is cool and hip.

>>95229044
Agreed.

>>95229044
>Mutants are about diversity
>no black character

>>95229010
Demon Bear Saga is one of the best X-men stories ever made

>>95229322
They had a native american character, that's way more diverse.

>>95229224
He was also forced out of Image because he was embezzling from the company. People always gloss over that part. The guy straight up steals from his friends.

>>95229426
But there isn't too many black American characters in the X-Books, funny huh?

Many think that the Mutants are a allegory about Jews and/or homosexuals, especially after the Singer movies.

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>>95229450
What a jewy thing to do.

>>95229504
New Mutants/X-Force had Sunspot who probably was the best black character the X--Men ever had. Mixed race kid who grew up in a mostly white area of Brazil because his family was well to do.

At the start of X-Force he had left the team and was with Gideon the villain, then time travel shenanigans before he came back after Age of Apocalypse.

>>95229671
Does Sunspot has any chance in the X-Force movie? Sources are saying that the New Mutants and X-Force Will be separated movies.

>>95229886
no, and I doubt X-force will even be made. besides, I'd rather he'd stay on New Mutants. No reason to make him a murderer

>>95229886
What a shit thing to do but I think the 'Generation X' names is tainted.

>>95229965
>I doubt X-force will even be made

Really? Why? If Fox made a show about fucking Legion why not a movie about the X-Force?

>>95230038
Noah Hawley. If Noah Hawley wants to make something they print a blank check for him. That's how Legion was made and that's how his Dr Doom movie is being made

X-Force is in their movie hell. Deadpool and Logan were a fucking disaster to make happen. Deadpool to RR 12 years to make and Logan was what the director wanted to make since The Wolverine and the studio got in their way every step of the way. It's only when they didn't care and gave them no money that they were able to make a good movie

>>95208664
>Unfortunately 90s DC just wrote better shit; we had Robinsons starman, Gaiman's sandman, birds of prey, Dixon on anything batman period, Superman was awesome too at the time, PADs young justice, Waid on kingdom come, Waid on Wally West's Flash book that defined the mythos to the point that Barry Allen's stories are trying to copy it's success, Morrisons super amazing run on JLA, his even more amazing DC One Million concept that his severely under-utilized... their output was overall amazing and character defining.

Basically DC was better and has been better till new 52 came along. Got it.

>>95208320
>And finally, Daredevil got really mediocre in the 90s between Fall From Grace and Flying Blind. And Fall From Grace isn't a terrible story, but definitely shows the downfalls of 90s storytelling tropes. I remember the Fathoms Of Humanity arc being cool, but it's been quite a while since I've read any of that. None of the rest of DD in that time until Flying Blind was all that interesting to me.

While I agree that was a poor time for ol'DD, you really can't discount how great those Kessel and Kelly runs were. In fact, that issue where DD and Spider-Ben face off against a super elmer fudd might be one of my favorite ever.

>>95232100
>Kessel and Kelly runs were
Can you tell me more about this run? Is this the one where he fakes his death and becomes someone else

>>95227721
Cheap drama. Same reason so many writers, not just at Marvel but in comics in general, hate marriages because giving characters dating drama and shipping bullshit is easy.

>>95229322
Is a Nuyorican cat girl not diverse enough for you?

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I dont know so have a fuzzy wolverine instead

>>95232100
Kesel is the most underrated superhero writer ever

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and a muscle-tumor wolverine too

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>>95209263
Thor never even wore this costume that much...maybe 2 or 3 issues. Most of the time, he just ran around shirtless.

>>95218965
>saved Marvel by taking on Star Wars
Hmmm...

>>95232839
Marvel really died in the 90s... Quesada saved it during the 2000s but then pulled a Shooter where he started putting his own personal politics and idea into the comics instead of leaving...thus marvel slowly going shit. The final nail in the coffin was Alonso who on the other hand is really incompetent.

The only reason we never saw Marvel go shit during the early years of Alonso was because of competent writers who knew what they were doing but Alonso did his fucking best to drive them away as hard as Quesada tried to bring them in Marvel.

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Is it true that rob liefeld can only draw one face?

>>95233275
I don't know if Alonso pushed the people like Hickman, Remender and Lemire away, or if it was just Image letting them do what they want and them making good money there. Why work for a company that owns all you do when you can create your own stuff and own it. Not even for future sales like tv and movies but just for the sake of doing anything you want to do

>>95233344
>making good money there
Don't be so sure of that. They're not Kirkman or BKV.

>>95233454
They make at least double per book at Image, and I'm sure they make more in trade than they do at Marvel. If a book sells 20k at Marvel, they make a bare minimum at a paycheck, at Image, they pay the bills

>>95218602
>And yet another fun fact: Reed smacked Sue in the face and told her to shut up.
she was possessed by Malice at the time

>>95233554
We need data for this.

>>95219425
I feel like this is bullshit but I believe it

>>95233637
ask Gillen

>>95233780
Real data, please.

>>95218409
>>95218602
>>95226839
wow how asshurt are you

>>95213400
Kind of have to agree with this, I wish modern comics had that kind of madcap spirit about them - albeit with a tighter execution.

Instead we get subpar film storyboards and walls of text.

>>95228985
I know it's cool to hate on Rob but his earlier work is actually pretty good for someone so young. It's only after X-Force really took off that the decline began, presumably a mix of laziness, ego, and being spread too thin due to having so much success heaped upon him in such short order.

Liefeld's taken so much flak over the years but people don't really criticise the right things. As a result his art nowadays is completely stale and boring to look at because he's had all the interesting things about his early art - interesting ideas about panelling, layout, sense of space, etc - kicked out of him by armchair critics who don't actually understand the subject.

>>95233275
>>95233344
I think it's more likely Image was letting them do what they wanted. Alonso is usually complimented by Ennis and Ellis and some others from when he was a Vertigo editor.

>>95233454
You forget that the sales expectations for an indie book is different than a Marvel/DC book.

http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/121756273497/market-maven-is-the-wicked-the-divine-in

>Anything selling stably over 10k in single issues is a cause for celebration and joy. The creators are almost certainly extremely happy.

>If you’re selling over (ooh) 12k, you’re probably making more than either of the big two would pay you, unless you’re one of the very biggest names.

>If you’re selling anything near 20k, you probably have to buy drinks for your friends.

>>95226839
I heard it was a bit of a misshap in the move from script to art. The writer just wrote it as Peter shoving her back, but it ended up drawn as him backhanding her.
I'd also heard that something similar went down with Pym/Jan too.
I don't know how much truth there really is in either of them

>>95235683
>interesting things about his early art - interesting ideas about panelling, layout, sense of space, etc - kicked out of him by armchair critics who don't actually understand the subject.
I thought armchair critics mostly bitched about pouches, the way he drew feet, shoulder pads and other crap like that?
I don't think the sort of people who usually bag on Liefeld really have any ware of, or notice paneling/layouts etc

>>95218602
>>95219878
>Another fun fact: Pete (accidentally) backhanded a woman to death in a cemetery because he thought she was Wolverine.

Post it please

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>>95236272
all I could find at short notice. It's from Spider-Man Vs Wolverine

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>>95229044
Masque had it coming.

>>95229552
>Rare non-Jew in comics
>blame his crime on being Jewish

Shoo, Swarmfag

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this was the best run Marvel had in the 90's

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>>95236402

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>>95236497

>>95208888
Rob Liefeld penciled Avengers Vol. 2 #1 when he was about to leave Image.

>>95236468
poor Marvel

>>95236468
Agreed.

>>95236497
Surprised this never shows up as one of Spidey's great regrets.

>>95235941
That's the surface level, but then you find people complaining about the background arrangements, a character seemingly standing on a panel, etc.

I think he took those too much to heart, looking at some of the art he did for New 52. Some of the blandest layouts and scenery I've ever seen in comics. His other big problem is that he tries to cover his shortcomings with anatomy by adding more and more detail. The way he draws faces nowadays is far worse than when he was younger, that said his bodies have improved a little - at the cost of them now being super-stiff.

In short, he's transformed from being a technically-lacking artist who made colourful, exciting images, to a technically-lacking artist who makes dull, static, bland images.

>>95236915
There was an issue of Amazing Spider-Man a few years ago where Peter was dealing with everyone who had died in his life in his mind. She showed up there as one of the many cameos.

>>95224915
Cyber definitely has it rough. Everyone remembers Omega Red (a one-note villain, who has a cool design and not much else), and even Roughhouse and Bloodscream (mercenaries) get a lot more mention and use.
Cyber was grating personality-wise, but he was a great character in the sense that he just really fucking despised Logan, and would try to ruin his life at any opportunity.

>>95233282
...god those are hideous

>>95237371
why are you posting this?

>>95228753
>Deadpool
It's not like anything people, both old fans and memeing plebs, like Deadpool actually came from Liefield.

>>95236468
Too bad Mackie used up every last scrap of talent he ever possessed to do it.

>>95237999
>Deadpool
on the subject of things people like dfrom 90s marvel, I guess that's another one

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>>95238685
>most popular Marvel character to come out from the 90's is intelligent, nihilistic and with a wicked sense of humor
Think it means anything?

>>95208140
>Are there any good marvel stories during the 90s?

most of the nineties were super rad if you like the darker side of Marvel.

2099
Doctor Strange
Ghost Rider
Hellstorm
Marvel Comics Presents
Maverick
Midnight Sons
Morbius
Sleepwalker
Spirits of Vengeance

most of the above was at least above average.
also Mr Fixit Hulk, Symbiotes and chain smoking Wolverine.

>>95238801
he was more a cult-favourite in the 90s.
I think part of his success comes from the things that made him appealing becoming bigger in the 2000s

>>95239074
I thought Mr Fixit Hulk was more of a thing in the 80s?

>>95239134

The Incredible Hulk #324 (Oct 1986) - Return of the Grey Hulk.

I had to look it up myself, huh.

>>95237999
BS. The basic gestalt of Good Deadpool was there from day one. People like him because of his design, his mercenary vibe, and his humor/goofiness.

In his very first appearance all of those elements are present. His design is awesome, he behaves like a trained assassin (it takes a whole team to take him down), he's joking all the time, and in the end he gets defeated and sent back to his boss in a box.

Deadpool loses and gets sent back o his boss in a box. It's not Joe Kelly who plotted that. It's Rob Liefeld who drew it and had Nicieza put words on top.

'90s Deadpool was best Deadpool, unless you enjoy the goof factor cranked up to 11, with Deadpool never seeming threatening at all and stories about how he's best friend with SHIELD agents and caring about his daughter 24/7.

>>95239646
>caring about his daughter 24/7.
What?

>>95237242
What issue? I always imagined an issue like that as a kid.

>>95238801
I'm sure Cap, and every other experienced hero, wears a jock cap.

>>95239646
This is true. I was surprised just how... Deadpoolish he was in his first appearance, all the way down to his instant mancrush on Cable.

>>95240531
It might be Marvel knights Spider-Man by Mark Millar.
I remember it partly because he specifically referred to Ben Reilly, even though the Clone Saga was something people seemed desperate to avoid bringing up at the time

>>95236468
Most bad writers have one good story or run in them. Only Marc Guggenheim, Frank Tieri and Bruce Jones seem to avoid that.

>>95233193
$tar War$ Anon.

>>95237362
Yeah, those are my favorite kind of villains. Guys who just hate or despise the hero for little reason other than the fact they do. Or really are just pricks in general.

>>95210537
Simmons sucks, but that's great. Saban's a greedy asshole.

>>95218409
To be fair, Pym hitting Janet was at a quality peak for the Avengers. Peter hitting MJ was part of an era we all like to ignore.

>>95211873
There's some truth in every stereotype, or else the stereotype wouldn't exist. The thing is to look at people as individuals not groups

>>95240766

I'm fairly certain the comic you're thinking of was an issue of Amazing Spider-man written by Dan Slott. I remember it was drawn by Marcos Martin.

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>>95241144
>>95240766
>>95240531
>>95237242

Amazing Spider-man 655

>>95235883
>I heard it was a bit of a misshap in the move from script to art
oh look, people are now stealing the pymslap story to fit peter's abuse too. Even though he clearly punches here and by no means knocks her aside

>>95236497
Spider-Man deserves backlash over this, but it's completely ignored

>>95229010
I think it gets good from when Magik joins the team (issue 14 or 15), then varies between decent and great up until Claremont leaves with 53-54. The run up to the team being killed by the Beyonder and the aftermath is pretty great imo. The issues with the Hellions, Magneto vs the Avengers etc are highlights, even if not up to the standard of the Demon bear stuff.

Artwise, I really like the issues with the Mary Wilshire/Sienkiewicz combo, wish it lasted longer

>>95229126
Inferno pretty much tanked all the X books

>>95227076

Liefeld isnt that bad.
IMO, New Mutats was worthless after Claremont (with Claremont it was even better than Uncanny), until Liefeld arrives and at least makes something interesting and very different.
And X-Factor was also worthless (and a mistake) pretty much until it became the Maddrox and friends book.

>>95243424
Louis had some good stuff. like how she handled Magneto or Warlock

>>95240910
No wonder Black Manta is /co/s favorite.

>>95241280
I recognize pretty much everyone there, but who's the redheaded kid reading the comic book, and the blonde guy behind him?

>>95232181
No, it's the run that stopped fucking around and finally allowed Matt and Foggy to work together since everything but that was Matt faking his fucking death shit and overall was a return to good ol' Daredevil shenanigans.

Issue 359 in particular pops out to me when I think Kesel, it kind of makes me feel like Daredevil from Ann Nocenti (though, there were certain problems in her run for me) to Kesel just didn't have a direction, a vision, a thing that works. For the first time it felt like some stability is back to the ongoing.

>>95224915
He was a poor man's Thane

>>95210198
>I_want_to_believe.wallposter

>>95243908
The kid's Tim Harrison, from "The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man". Blonde guy looks like Ned Leeds.

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>>95233099
I got some wires crossed looking at that cover.
>Thor's is lifting Cap's shield? Wow!

>>95243908

Here you go

https://web.archive.org/web/20110812044343/http://marvel.com/news/story/15328/amazing_spider-man_book_of_the_dead

>>95243424
>And X-Factor was also worthless (and a mistake) pretty much until it became the Maddrox and friends book.
While I agree that X-Factor was better when it was Madrox & Friends, PAD's X-Factor v1 run wasn't bad by any means, at least up until Madrox died.

>>95244063
It was back when he was seriously powered down by Odin and Warren Ellis

>>95243424
Weezie is honestly an incredibly overrated writer. If she was a guy she'd be seen as pretty mediocre but because she was female writer during a time where comics were blowing up and there wasn't a lot of women writing for Marvel or DC she's considered one of the greats.

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>>95243424
>Liefeld isnt that bad.
Which means that in 20 years this anon will be defending America.
>mfw

>>95246576
The art in America isn't bad... the artist knows how to draw thicc chiccs at least, in an era where most comics are afraid to be sexy.

>>95246576
These things happen years and decades later because the artist or writer is no longer impacting the industry, so it's easier to talk about any positives or nostalgia for the era without getting it mixed up in the suffering that happened at the time.

I don't know if people will ever like America unironically like people defend Liefield now, but I could see people defending Land or defending shitty politics pandering depending on how the political landscape changes in two decades. Or even just "we used to be able to talk about politics in our comics, as shitty as it was. Now everyone is too afraid to do anything with it and everything is so blandly detached." Something like that. Or even just a liking for whatever the overall theme of this period of comics coalesces as with the hindsight of the future.

>>95247015
>the current state of Marvel fans

>>95246576
I dunno if it's a fair comparison, as Liefeld was actually popular back then

>>95208140
I actually don't mind Armorcap's look