Tom King staying on Batman for 100 issues

I actually like King's run so far. For the most part at least.
But his serial killer Riddler is terrible, so I worry about the rest of the gallery. And the dialogue could be much more tight.

Fuck. Cant we just put him a Kite Man book?

>>95190017

Eh he was already a killer before this book. It's better than nice guy informant Riddler IMO.

I'm glad he plans on staying for the long run. He just needs to ditch Janin ASAP

>>95189979
Could be at least tone down the edge and stop making all the villain sadistic serial killers and child murders

>>95190069
Killing isnt the issue, turning him into an edgey fuckwit with abs is

>>95190111

>He had, he tells us, grown up without a father, and he wanted his own children to have a different experience.

>>95189979
Is King kite man?

>>95189979
After the next arc or two it's dropping off my list. As much as the Sale covers have kept me around I'm done with this book. It isn't good and King has no clue what he's doing with it. DC has some of the shittiest art it has on this book and it really shouldn't be getting anywhere near the scores it gets from reviewers.

If it isn't Finch (I can't believe I typed that) on the next arc, or if I even smell more of his suicidal depression crap I'm done with it. And I wont stop anti-shilling it until King admits himself to a psych ward or at least gets ripped off of this.

I sincerely would prefer scott snyder at this point. And I fucking hate the way that dude writes batman. I fucking ragged on him defending king through the first few arcs. This book is a disaster and I fucking hate that I'm one of the people that keeps it above 100K buying three copies just to have a back-up Sale cover.

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>>95190365
>Is King kite man?

Absolutely.

>>95189979

I like King's Batman. At least he's telling coherent, consistent stories. Better than some *other* writers we've dealt with.

Cool, I can live with not buying Batman comics for another three years, assuming double shipped.

>>95190605
>coherent
not at all.
>consistent
for being shit.

How is breaking batmans back and unbreaking the same issue it coherent? How is catwoman beating bane so easily coherent? How is batman having his throat slashed and it not even being a plot point coherent? How is hanging the robins off page, healing them off page coherent?

How is Batman getting his ass kicked for two and half issue after jobbing the entire suicide mission and throat slashing, before headbutting bane coherent or consistent?

This shit is garbage. I Am Gotham and Night of the Monster Men were where the fun and intrigue ended. At the point it became "Tom King spills blood as always."

I liked Swampy and Fudd (the button was good enough too but he only wrote 1/4th) but otherwise ever since Monster Men he's been absolutely fucking TRASH.

So is he the bendis or dan slott of DC.

>>95190465

I'm absolutely surprised at the book's popularity, sales wise.

Like are there really that many people who find emo edgelord batman relatable,or entertaining??

>>95190465
>I hate this book and want King booted off writing duties.

Dont buy three copies of every issue yourself then dipshit

>>95190628
I'm actually excited. Feel bad for my LCS as I'll pretty much only be stopping in once a month for 2 Superman issues, a Super Sons and an Aquaman.

Marini will be a nice breath of fresh air in november.

>>95190685

>How is breaking batmans back and unbreaking the same issue it coherent?

Wait, really? Did a doctor judo chop his vertebrae back into place like Rises?

>>95190710
Finish reading my post. (or really just take the first sentence to heart). I don't plan on it. I hate to take books off my list because one of my two LCSs is very small time so they're pretty much left with a deadstock issue if I don't tell them before the order. Which is small beans but I still feel bad.

When they took Sale off the covers I debated hopping off the train but they brought him back. he's the only artist I would do this for. Maybe Frank Miller but I'd require only him on art, sketchy as it may be now.

>>95189979
To be honest, King's run has been way more enjoyable than Snyder's run. His biggest problem is that he still has a hard time getting Batman's voice right.

>>95190753
No, worse, he did it himself. In a few hours.

>>95190685
>How is Batman getting his ass kicked for two and half issue after jobbing the entire suicide mission and throat slashing, before headbutting bane coherent or consistent?

I wish I could unsee this.

>>95190777

>did it to himself

It sounds like this comic is being written by a sentient /fit/ meme.

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>>95189979
>>Such as Tom saying that he wants to write Batman for 100 issues, that’s what he’s got planned out to write. In comparison, Scott Snyder wrote the book for around 50 issues, with some spin-offs here and there. Tom King wants to double that.
Well, King is WAY better than Snyder so I'm all for it.

>>95190780
>>95190808
I've had people tell me Rooftops is "good". It treats bats as a retard with a healing factor.

I've seen people refer to I Am Bane as good. Aside from having Bane run the same gauntlet he mad batman run it was full of the same stupid shit IAS and Rooftops was.

And the funny thing is, you NEVER see the people who like Kings work mention something like that (the reverse gauntlet, having Bane break in to Arkham to fight through the villains to get to batman rather than breaking them out to fight batman. I thought that WAS one stroke of semi-genius on his part.)

>>95190101
Are you implying they aren't already serial killers?

>>95190886
The Riddler never used to be. Not the type to stab someone himself. Or to kill a guys kid and talk shit about it. He's become fucking christopher moltisanti.

Are you implying he was?

I don't think I can respect a comic book writer who says "I want to work on [long-running series] for X amount of issues!"

Like, I can understand doing that with something new: a brand new character/series, or a somewhat new subseries for which you want to leave a blueprint for future writers.

But specifically for long-running series, it never comes across as anything but a fanboy getting too much control and not being able to see themselves in an objective fashion. Because they're only doing it for one of two awful reasons: 1) their fanboyism forces them to try to get "longest-running writer on X" as a record or 2) their greed forces them to think that they'll eventually get "Series X Omnibus by Writer" and that they'll rake in dough.

In a word, I can't believe I have to say this about King, but:
Focus on **quality**, not **quantity**.

King is a hack that needs to fuck off from comics in general.

>>95190982
See, I don't even necessarily want him gone from DC in general. Just off batman. He sucks on it.

Him with Jason and RHATO seems like an emo wrist-slashing match made in heaven.

>>95190982
Nah, King is a great writer. He just needs to fuck off from Batman because he's just using it as an excuse for an easy paycheck. He doesn't need to put in any work on Batman because it's Batman.

>>95191003
Considering how he tend to write Jason as just a guy who crack jokes left and right, I prefer he stay the heck away from him and his books.

>>95191003
Since when Jason was emo?

>>95191003
>Him with Jason and RHATO
>match made in heaven
Is this a joke? He isn't good at writing him at alll.

>>95190827
Thats not saying much, anon. The only okay thing Snyder did was Court of Owls

>>95189979
Geez, I really hope not. I like Tom King but his Batman is his worst work by far and I'd like to see him tackle things that are better suited to his talents

>>95191035
>>95191049
>>95191069
We'll disagree about jason being all about "muh depressing feels". That was the joke. No need to discuss it, there was another thread for that. Simply disagree with the joke and say it wasn't funny. Don't derail this thread with a Robin discussion.

>>95190877
>having Bane break in to Arkham to fight through the villains to get to batman rather than breaking them out to fight batman. I thought that WAS one stroke of semi-genius on his part.

I keep getting the impression that most people who like King's run have only read Snyder, or started with N52 comics in general.

When that's the only thing you can compare to this run,then it's easier to be on board, I guess.

How can someone defend this if they've read O'Neil or any old runs from the 80's and early 90's?

>>95191090
Who derail this very interesting thread about how king sucks? It's not like you bringing anything new to the table.

>>95191123
>How can someone defend this if they've read O'Neil or any old runs from the 80's and early 90's?
In my case, I can't. At first it was because I legitmately was happy to have a new writer moving on from Snyder. And I felt Finch's art on the batbook, after seeing it, mixed with Kings writing was at least worth some enthusiasm.

>I keep getting the impression that most people who like King's run have only read Snyder, or started with N52 comics in general.
I get this feeling about most things these days. At best its the type of people that started with N52 and think anything before isn't worth their time.

>>95191173
Honestly, can't disagree.

These kind of threads as bad as who is the best muh Robin threads because people keep saying the same things over and over again.

Also, King saying that he would like to stay till 1000 has been old news since July and we already discussed this.

>>95191173
you don't have to like the topic to stay on topic. I'll even go one further and say, I apologize if my joke was so offensive to you.

That's the nicest thing I've ever posted.

Try to stay on topic.

And what I've added is the brunt of posts in this thread. Because I actually care about the comics I read and the money I spend. Excuse me for wanting to discuss that.

The robin thread was recently kept from dying. You'll likely enjoy it.

>>95191228
Then why are you in this thread? I fucking HATE cartoons. And cartoonfags. I dont go into cartoon threads and shit them up though. I want them to discuss what they like and are concerned with.

>>95189979
Fuuuuck

At least it's still double shipping so we're almost half way there. It'll be a little over 4 years that he'll be on the title if it stays double shipping.

>>95191262
I just don't know why people think there's worth in such long runs. It kills me when i see someone like the faggots at IGN mentioning long, sustained runs being a good thing. Most of the runs they mention were across multiple bat books.

>>95191235
This thread is about King's writing and you brought up him writing a Robin who is related to Batman. This is on topic and no one went off it expect you suddenly getting triggered.

>>95191204
>N52 and think anything before isn't worth their time
Tbf, it's like there's many good Batman pre-52. Not to mention how bad the art is in early 00s wich make them unreadable.

>>95191323
*it's not like there are

>>95191323
>Not to mention how bad the art is in early 00s wich make them unreadable
This. I tried reading pre flashpoint Batfam books and they were unreadable.

>>95191323
I didn't "bring it up", I made a joke which immediately drew three responses that were very clearly centered on the joke rather than the intent which was "get king off batman."

The second half, also a reply to me, pretty much tells me what I'm dealing with here.

>Tbf, it's like there's many good Batman pre-52

jesus.

>>95191384
>>95191341
preemptively, I understood what you meant before the correction.

>>95191323
I agree.

I actually read 70s-80s and they were really enjoyable compared to 00s before the reboot which you really can't enjoy unless you are nostalgia fan who grow up with this period.

>>95191374
Dixon's Nightwing probably could've been better had McDaniel not been the artist half his run.

And boy was the art in Cass' Batgirl book bad. Sucks because the writing was good there, and then when the writing got worse, the art got better.

>>95191438
>I actually read 70s-80s and they were really enjoyable compared to 00s before the reboot which you really can't enjoy unless you are nostalgia fan who grow up with this period.

But seriously, after reading that, can you see what we are missing with the current run?

I'm not that much of a nostalgia fan, but Batman seems to have lost weight (character wise, not physically) or mystery. Let's not even mention his once famous detective skills, which nowadays are like a meme. They are always mentioned but never displayed.

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> Not so fast /co/ you heard DC we’ve got adventures to go on /co/ Just you and me and sometimes Snyder and sometimes Tynion but NEVER Marvel! You wanna know why /co/? Because he CROSSED me Oh it gets darker /co/ Welcome to the darkest year of our adventures First thing that’s different No more Marvel /co/ He threatened to crash the comics industry so I made him and the government go away I replaced them both as the defacto titles in your pull list. DC wouldn’t have accepted me if I came home without you, so now you know the real reason I rescued you. I JUST TOOK OVER THE PULL LIST /CO/! And if you tell DC I said any of this I’ll deny it And they’ll take my side because I’m a hero /co/ And now you’re gonna have to do whatever I say /co/ Forever And I’ll go out and make more issues of Batman /co/. Because that’s what this is all about /co/ That’s my one arm man I’m not driven by making lasting changes to Batman /co/ That was FAKE I’m driven by getting to issue 100. I want that 100th issue /co/ That’s my series arc /co/ If it takes 7 years. I WANT MY 100TH ISSUE /CO/. IT’S GONNA TAKE US ALL THE WAY TO THE END /CO/. 7 MORE YEARS /CO/. 7 MORE YEARS UNTIL I GET THAT 100TH ISSUE. FOR 97 MORE YEARS /CO/. I WANT THAT 100TH ISSUE /CO/!

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>>95191725

>>95191123
It's undefensible. Everything is cinematic gibberish, cool looking slides that make zero sense when put together.

>>95191850
I think I get the most mad over this War arc when it comes to that too. You see reviewers and normies praising the art (which sucks) but the worst is that most of the "action" has been told, not show, on VERY stagnant and shitty spreads and splashes.

>Brainlet on suicide watch

>>95192155
why are you on suicide watch, anon? Reading too much Tom King lately?

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>>95190925
>The Riddler never used to be a killer

>>95192278
Number one, that isn't what I said. Number two what you posted doesn't disagree with that, regardless of your understanding, or proper representation, of what I said.

>>95191850
>Indefensible
And your spelling ain't the only thing that's shit.
Everything is cinematic gibberish, cool looking slides that make zero sense when put together.
How stupid are ya? Because King's Batman is not a difficult read, it's pretty straight forward narrative.anyone who's arguing that King's Batman that is indecipherable or pretentious must have a 5th grader's reading level.

>>95192366
>that isn't what I said!
>Not the type to stab someone himself.
That's exactly what you said.

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>>95189979
Go fuck yourself OP, you are a faggot contrarian and this run has been great.

We can only pray we get King for 100 issues and to any retard that disagrees, I highly doubt you were reading during the Snyder era. We had to sit back and watch the Batfamily get shit on for 5 years.

>>95191204

I've read many runs of Batman and have been since the 90s. King's been doing solid job and the complaints about it being emo are pretty exaggerated. We're finally free of non-stop inner monologues and historical references. Alfred isnt a little birch crying about his "son." Batman will always have his contrarian fans. Even though there's like 7 monthly books to choose from.

>>95189979
Absolute Edition at the end of the run please

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>>95192187

>>95191026
He's the most overrated comic writer ever possibly. The fact that he is shitting his pants week after week on the biggest character in comics should be evidence of this, but for some reason people still haven't figured it out.

>>95190101
His edge is very tame compared with Snyders.

>>95189979
Kingautists on eternal suicide watch.

>>95192402
He just dropped an explicit Camus reference like it was anything other than a tired lazy allusion literally last issue. The very definition of pretentious.

>>95192567
>this is what Snyder haters believe

>>95192489
This. This is the most human Bruce has been since ONeil and Englehardt. Dixon brought about the autistic angry Bruce and every writer since except Morrison ran with that.

Its very refreshing to have him not just be a walking ball of anger again.

>>95192433
Order of events:
>Anon 1 says he wants them not be sadistic serial killers (mentions killing kids which is clearly reference to Riddler)

>anon 2 says are you implying they aren't

>anon 3, me, says "the riddler never used to be [a serial killer]. Not the type to stab someone himself. Or to kill a guys kid and talk shit about it. He's become fucking christopher moltisanti. Are you implying he was?"

>anon (maybe 2 maybe you're a new anon, anon 4) replies with a screen cap about Riddler not killing people while telling me I said Riddler didn't used to be a killer (rather than a sadistic killer who does the sadistic things mentioned).

>anon 3, me, says "not quite what I said, regardless I'd still be right according to your picture."

>anon 2 or 4 (you), respond "you said what i said you said" completely disregarding it still doesn't matter.

So okay, anon. I get why you were confused. I meant Riddler wasn't the type of dude to stab someone so sadistically or goad a father about the son he took from him.

So I'll take on the "he wouldn't kill people before" comment you've attributed to me. Now tell me why I'm wrong, according to that screen shot.

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>>95192619
>teleports behind you
>nothin personnel Bats

>>95190886
God you think people never saw a supervillain before. If you ever check out tumblr you would see so many riddler "fans" crying about how King is writing a bad guy acts likee a bad guy because they forget their riddler fanfiction isn't actually canon.

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>>95192489
>We're finally free of non-stop inner monologues
ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING!? HAVE YOU READ A SINGLE FUCKING ARC SINCE ISSUE FUCKING ONE? IT'S ALL MONOLOGUES WHETHER THEY'RE INNER OR DRONING ON TO SOMEONE ELSE!!

>>95192625
>Walking ball of anger
Jesus christ. He's a walking ball of angst and "meh". He's fucking pic related at all times. He hasn't been angry at all except for in IAS. And even then it was more of a farcical anger to dupe Bane into breaking his back.

>>95192609
Oh I Remember you from last time! The guy who hates lliterary allusions.

>>95189979
The day King leaves Batman, Slott will still be in ASM.
At least King is somehow more conpetent than Slott

>>95192609
Like I said: a fifth grader's reading level.

>>95190696
>Like are there really that many people who find emo edgelord batman relatable,or entertaining??
That's the most popular Batman right behind Asshole Batgod. Remember how casuals hated Brave and the Bold and screamed "not muh Batman"?

>>95192717
It's like this thread is full of one shitposting anon who hasn't read batman, King or otherwise and is just saying controversial shit.

>>95192768
That's not what he said then or there. He hates cliches and commonly used allusions.

Him saying he hates Gatsby or Tale of Two Cities references wouldn't be the same as him saying he hates literary references.

>>95192650
The riddler has killed kids before.

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>>95192712
>teleports behind you kid
>spouts meme philosophy
>heh

>>95192799
Anon, you calling someone fifth grade for not appreciating entry level references doesn't make it true. Discuss king or even just fucking batman or fuck off. You and the other anon who seem to love the reference have been attacking this kid since the story time.

Fuck off.

>>95192768
Nope that was some other guy. Although watching you try and parse out the difference between hating lazy allusions and allusions in general was pretty entertaining.

Mark Doyle Left Batman Over Tom King’s Choice Of David Finch For Catwoman Proposal
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/09/08/mark-doyle-batman-david-finch-proposal/

>>95192860
I'm not call you a fifth grader, I'm saying you have the reading level of one.
>though I'm beginning to see that's an insult towards fitlfth graders.

>>95192799
So you admit the only people who find King's writing to be well written and have depth read at a fifth grade level.

>>95192890
Well then you're an idiot for repeating the argument.

>>95192907
You're not calling me anything faggot that's a different anon.

>>95192933
>>95192947
/co/ do you not see how shitty these king haters are at reading comprehension?

>>95192942
All the ignorance in the world doesn't suddenly make Kite Man talking to his dead son about Sisyphus anything but hackneyed trite bullshit.

>>95192890
How is it lazy though?

>>95193022
Can you explain how though?

>>95193001
Yeah most of their argument is literally

>WAHHH WHY ISNT THIS BOOK BEING SHALLOW WHY IS IT TRYING

>>95191673
>Let's not even mention his once famous detective skills
Forget those what about his supposed "preptime plans"? His fucking plans are
>I'll just build a mech to take down Supes and WW!
Like where's the fucking creativity in that? Fucking hate all the casual cocksuckers who eat this shit up.

>>95191725
Kek.

>>95193023
>>95193060
Kite Man just happened to have a conversation about freshman existentialism with his son (whose name is already Charlie Brown) before he was senselessly murdered but only happens to pontificate on it after the fact when he's looking out at the ocean wondering where it all went wrong because the issue needed some shorthand depth.

>>95193001
You said the only people who would have trouble with it would be fifth graders, implying that it is simple bullshit for middle schoolers when it is clearly trying to be way more than that.

>>95193060
It's a well-worn trope. That's inherently one reason why it's lazy. Referencing common things, whether you think they're effective references or not, doesn't automatically make them smart or worthy of praise.

Beside that Kite-Man is the reference. He has been since the first half of this Ballad (one could even make the argument he was just by being the shitty villain who couldn't for King's entire run.)

Making it explicit, rather than implicit, is lazy. It assures the point connects. It's why the fifth grade reading level comment is so backwards and admittedly annoying (which is clearly why the trolling faggot keeps saying it). It's literally bastardizing the reference to make sure the idiots understand.

It's what kings done in every arc with every good idea. The "batman as self harm" idea I meantioned in the story time thread is the same. Great idea, if bruce wasn't a known cutter and Alfred basically assisting his suicide. Having alfred be his kevorkian is smart. If he doesn't know he's being his kevorkian.

Bane and Batman ARE and ALWAYS have been very similar. Him doing an issue basically reminding people and pointing that out makes it a weaker story point.

>>95193146
Yes, that's how one shots/concise format works. Outside of killing the son after few panels, it's not lazy. Maybe read some older comics where they didn't just write for the trades?

>>95192567
>not sure if serious or trolling
Snyder reached a new level of edgy stroylines.

>>95193146
>Kite Man just happened to have a conversation about freshman existentialism with his son.
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG
YOU'RE WRONG
YOU'RE WRONG
He wasn't having a conversation with his son about Freshman existentialism.
Your

>>95191673
>>95193109
The current "big over the top event!" trend with Batman was what elevated it to its current sales numbers though. In several ways it is fairly different from classic Batman, but it's what the modern comic buying public wants apparently.

>>95193229
Did you really just call a two-part interlude in the middle of an 8-part overly-long piece of shit a "one-shot/concise format"?

>>95193229
It is lazy. It's on the nose, inorganic, and clumsily explicit. Writing for trades is not an excuse for bad writing. King fans are the ones who need to read older comics.

>>95192896
>“Batman#24, there are two editors listed for that book, we switched editors half way though… it’s not normal, it’s very weird.

>I got in a big fight with my editor about it, an editor I love, Mark Doyle, he wanted to bring in an artist on it who had not worked on the book before, Iknew it was this big moment, Batman proposing to Catwoman, you’re going to turn on Twitter there it’sgoing to be that stupid image, I want this to be an image with David, I want him to draw this issue. ‘No, no, David’s too busy going on vacation’, just call him,We got in a big fight over it, and in the end we switched editors and got David and that’s how we brought Jamie Rich on the book.

>That’s something I could not do earlier in my career, say I’m putting my foot down, that’s something you can only say when you’ve had a lot of success…. When you first come in you have no power at all, you are at the whim of your editors who are in control of whether you eat this day.”

Finch is shit, they should have gotten someone like Manapul or at least someone who can make expressions other that "I have an allergy".

>>95193223
>Bane and Batman ARE and ALWAYS have been very similar. Him doing an issue basically reminding people and pointing that out makes it a weaker story point
Not everyone know that actually. There are many n52 fans who don't even know much about Bane.

>>95193185
Wow,I have never seen someone this fucking stupid before.

>>95193322
I don't usually like Finch art, but he did a great job on the proposal scene.

>>95193146
>freshman
This word right here shows anon's true grasp on the subject of philosophy. My good sir, how are your lectures on epistemology going over at the University?

>>95193300
Yeah, because it is.

>>95193323
That's my point. That's writing for the lowest common denominator. Which isn't a problem. But it isn't smart. And people calling it lazy is the opposite of having a fifth grade reading level.

Which is the claim the faggot shitting these threads up has been shitting them up with.

>>95193362
Great, I just introduced a bunch af 18 year olds to The Myth of Sisyphus the other day and blew their minds.

>>95193387
Anon, it quite literally is not.

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Earth to Tom King: STOP writing capeshit and give us Sheriff Of Babylon 2!

>>95193223
>It's a well-worn trope. That's inherently one reason why it's lazy.
Oh my fucking god...
>beside that Kite-Man is the reference.
The fuck?
>Making it explicit, rather than implicit, is lazy
Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
I'm sorry anon but I have to fail your essay. I'm afraid you have to repeat the fifth grade all over again.

>>95193300
They're inherently one shots that are loosely related to ongoing storylines.
>>95193302
Alan Moore's way of bringing thematic coherence in one shot format used to be arcane symbolism or a quote or some form of intertext. Would you say that's also bad? Morrison formed his one shots around a premise that was visible from panel one, is that also bad storytelling?

>>95193410
Yes it most certainly is.

>>95193482
>quote or some form
They generally are quotes that gained fame from him using them in the book with a few exceptions. They, in most cases, are not entry-level.

You seem to be stuck on the idea of "this is lazy so ALL THINGS are lazy". Nobody has said this.

>>95193490
Bringing you in along with this loser, no they are not. They are not self contained or concise. They rely on the story around the which is exactly why they're interludes. The two themselves are literally part of a two part themselves called the ballad of kite man.

they very literally are not concise stories or one-shot stories.

>>95193286
>>95193471
I don't agree with those anons but you can at least have a discussion and give a reason why they are wrong other than sperging like an idiot.

You look like you don't have an argument and probably don't other than "Reeeeee this upsets me"

He said the same shit about Grayson. He was only on it for like 20.

>>95193409
Yes professor, also share some thoughts on Lacan's 4 discourses and Derrida's hauntology

>>95193482
Those authors understood the importance of story structure and characterization in carrying a story, and unless they were exploring philosophical ideals explicitly their allusions largely weren't necessary to enjoying the text, and fulfilled their function as subtext and enrichment instead of cutesy distractions.

>>95193551
They're wrong because they don't have a fucking leg to stand on. Their argument is literary allusions are stupid! The argument that it's a LAZY ALLUSIONS IS NONSENSICAL AS FUCK!

>>95193658
Lol as much as I'd love to witness the dick measuring contest here how about you start a discord to do this or get back to talking about comics?

You haven't even attempted to prove your point. You're just attempting to debase others personally.

>>95193544
>They, in most cases, are not entry-level.
Negro, obscurity of the reference doesn't mean it inherently provides greater depth.

>>95193658
With regards to how people apply them to vacuous writing in order to seem smart, e.g. Tom King's Vision, or just in general?

>>95193699
Seriously this.

>>95193699
Just like a reference alone doesn't inherently provide depth. It's all in the execution.

>>95192896
>Mark Doyle Left Batman Over Tom King’s Choice Of David Finch For Catwoman Proposal

Kind of feel like there might be a lot more they're not saying.

So far, what's King done to "leave his mark" ?

>Opens first issue, Batman is ready (and willing) to kill himself riding a plane.
>Rescued by Gothams.
>Later Jobs to Gothams
>The whole Bane fiasco
>Batman openly suicidal
>Slits wrists as kid.
>Cat Bat
>Marry me Cat
>Tale of a neverending war of Jokes and Riddles
>???

Any sane editor would be wise to run the fuck away until the run's over.

>>95193665
>fulfilled their function as subtext
What exactly do you mean by subtext? Are you alluding to thematic exploration or some sort of profound sublties, if it's the latter, don't even bother to reply. Morrison used to name-drop ideas and philosophers on the whim of few panels because he considered that was smart storytelling.

I didn't think there could be a worst Batman run than Snyder's, then Tom King came along.

I didn't think there could be a more overrated comics writer than Snyder, then Tom King came along.

It isn't even necessarily that King's Batman is mopey or autistic or emo (though he is that at times, and it sucks), but just that it's all so fucking inconsistent, in terms of both characterization and story tone.

The opening arc with those stupid superheroes with the stupid names. Then the random Monster Men crossover. Then a clusterfuck with characters like Psycho Pirate, Punch and Jewlee, Bane, and Catwoman all crammed together. The mind-numblingly dumb I Am Bane arc. The Catwoman proposal for no reason. Then Bruce feeling that he has to tell Catwoman about The Montage of Jokes & Riddles (which she lived through) for no reason before she gives him an answer. And he's depressed all the time for no reason. Because depressed people tend to ask Catwoman to marry them.

The people who like this run point to various random things like the Batman-themed restaurant scene with all the real Bat-senpai eating together. As if that meant anything to connected to anything else, tonally or narratively.

Tom King can be pretentious, but at other times he's mindblowingly dumb and inane. The Swamp Thing issue that's all about how Swampy doesn't want to kill, until the end when Swampy randomly decides to kill for no reason at all. "The Ballad of Kite Man, parts one and two"... just... fucking... "The Ballad of Kite Man".

The art is good, and I never thought I'd say that about Finch but I am, I'm reduced to this. I like Janin as well.

This is all insanely bad, though. It's going to get to the point of late era Ultimate X-Men, where I'm reading it in disbelief over how bad it is, with Ultimate Cable and Ultimate Onslaught, etc.

What's next in the remaining 70 issues? "The Fable of the Crocodile"? "Two-Face Wants to Adopt a Robin"? A storyarc where Batman and Penguin have a pie-eating contest?

>>95193745
>Opens first issue, Batman is ready (and willing) to kill himself riding a plane.
Is this supposed to be a bad thing? He was trying to save the day.

>>95193699
That was not the point I was making. But being a relatively commonly used reference does make it "lazy". If seven different comedians make the same joke, one after another, by the third you'll likely begin to find them lazy.

That sixth or seventh joke may be a doozy but it likely will not garner the same response as it would have if it was first, or if it had changed topics and done something new.

>>95193775
>But being a relatively commonly used reference does make it "lazy".
No it doesn't.

>>95193703
Your thoughts on those concepts, you seem to know your stuff around philosophical discourse.

>>95193745
>Any sane editor would be wise to run the fuck away until the run's over
I guess he wasn't sane enough when it comes to Snyder since he stayed for most of his stories.

>>95193322
I get his rason for it though, he wanted this big momemnt to be ilustarted by one of the regular artuists of the comic. It makes sense. on the other hand, king is the idiot that handpicked Finch to be on the book, so...

>>95193353
I normally don't care for Clay Mann's art but it looked really good that issue. Finch was his usual shittery, only the first few issues of batman looked any good.

>>95193768
When he has various aricrafts and watercrafts that could have been brought in to help? Yes, it's a bad thing.

>>95193109
>>I'll just build a mech to take down Supes and WW!

Member Tower of Babel? In restrospect, that kind of decent story is now a masterpiece.

>>95193766
Even when Morrison wasn't being subtle in his allusions he was still crafting a fully formed story around them and was exploring those themes in ways other than simple name dropping as well.

>>95193744
Nobody's going to argue that.
>>95193775
Depends on the reference but I don't think King really is basic bitch with his intertextual uses, nor does some obscure text provides much more value to the finished product. If the references do get too obscure but are still visible, I'd argue that author is playing the game of circle masturbatory in a much more pretentious way.

>>95193791
I disagree.

Would you mind telling why it isn't lazy? For two threads now a few of us have tried tell you why we think it is.

Maybe make an comparison like I did with the comedians.

>>95193795
He would totally be same if he ran away from the biggest book on the market.

>>95193881
Referencing Camus in pop culture is exactly the hottest masturbatory trend currently.

I've lurked in a lot of king threads and the breaking point for most anons seems to be the same.
90 pages on "I am suicide" and "I am bane" of Batman's narrative being 'Batman is a death wish'. Then two panels of one page where Bruce tells his mother's ghost "I'm Batman because I want to help people".
Bravo King. You got it. Batman's not a selfdestructive asshat. But guess what? Do you think people will remember the 90+ FUCKING PAGES OR THE TWO FUCKING PANELS? And do you think the two panels were satisfying? Kings got problems and I'm not sure I have it in me to wait a hundred issues to see if he figures it out.

>>95193323
>>95193390

That is the point, exactly. Doesn't matter if most new readers haven't bothered to check older batman comics.

You have a great character like Bane, already established as a parallel to Batman, both in terms of intelect and strength. There are a thousand possible stories that you could write (see: Bane Conquest) without revisiting or hacking the original.

>>95193881
>If the references do get too obscure but are still visible, I'd argue that author is playing the game of circle masturbatory in a much more pretentious way.

I agree, but I think the problem really lies in: what's too obscure?

Anon and I, and probably a few others, said it was lazy and have been virtually BERATED for that. Told that WE have poor reading levels. Which, I get it, is clear bait. But it's stemming from somewhere. There is a genuine disagreement between what is lazy and what is not and what is pretentious and what is not.

I think where i part with the other anon is I don't think his use of sisyphus is pretentious. I think it's the type of shit that wants to seem pretentious because those stories are eaten up by normal people as being smart.

and I'm not throwing an insult at anyone or saying I'm smarter or not normal (in the sense that I'm better). I just see it as lazy, since it's entry level. And I think it's intentionally so.

There's definitely the problem of "when am I really just stroking my ego and when am I suiting the story" but I'd just prefer not be to told I'm and idiot and something is "smart" when I don't think it is.

>>95191305
Long runs are a fine thing when the writer's good, like Claremont's X-Men, PAD's Hulk, Gruenwald's Cap, Stan/Jack FF, Stan's Spider-Man...

>>95194017
>Doesn't matter if most new readers haven't bothered to check older batman comics
Yeah, because only old fans who never happy with anything should be pandered while he ignore new fans because they didn't care about reading comic form 20 years ago.

>>95194017
Mate are you dense? Most of Kings run he has been having to simultaneously do two things. Fix what Batman villains and mythos he can from Snyder fucking it all up and writing a cohesive story. Lets see you do better. DC literally put him on the book to repair the damage to the mythos.

>>95194111
>repair
They put him on the book to repeat Snyder's success, the guy who delivered some of the best selling Batman comics. They don't care about quality.

>>95193867
Morrison went from referencing Feigenbaum to explaining metatexuality to memetic theory in couple of panels to referencing Zen few pages later in a Doom Patrol issue. All were just self wankery tier references aside from the Zen one.

>>95193767
>What's next in the remaining 70 issues? "The Fable of the Crocodile"? "Two-Face Wants to Adopt a Robin"? A storyarc where Batman and Penguin have a pie-eating contest?

My fucking sides.

Though I would go with: A storyarc where Batman and Penguin have an eating-disorder contest

>>95194124
The entire point of Rebirth was to put quality first again and fix the damage new writers caused with New 52.

Batman sucks.

King would have been a good Daredevil writer

>>95193811
>When he has various aricrafts and watercrafts that could have been brought in to help? Yes, it's a bad thing.

Thank you. Though you did not mention JL Pals.

>>95193766
In Batman RIP when Morrison dropped a reference to the novel "La-Bas", about ritualistic devil worship, it was in keeping with the plot of the comic.

Whenever Morrison would be writing a story about a reality-warping elf like Qwisp or Mr Mxy or Bat-Mite, and he'd drop a reference to the scientific theory of "M-space" or "Branes" or quantum stuff, that was in keeping with the reality-warping of the storyline.

Now tell me what the fuck Albert Camus has to do with an autistically boring dinner issue during the Silent Movie Pose Play of Jokes & Riddles?

>>95194155
There's always a "...except Batman." Happened with the original crisis (Frank Miller did deliver the New Batman a year later with Year One and then Mike W Barr went right back to telling the same Batman stories he had been telling since before the Crisis), and then at the beginning of the New 52 (until they reluctantly accepted that there was no way it could work with the compressed timeline)

>>95194084
>I think where i part with the other anon is I don't think his use of sisyphus is pretentious. I think it's the type of shit that wants to seem pretentious because those stories are eaten up by normal people as being smart.
>and I'm not throwing an insult at anyone or saying I'm smarter or not normal (in the sense that I'm better). I just see it as lazy, since it's entry level. And I think it's intentionally so.
Let's be honest here, most of the references are in part to seem "smart." Nobody in this medium (that I've come across) is some Tarkovsky like genius who can write stories based on what kind of feeling a poem conveyed. They're always mostly shallow, few times only are they in service of the text with a lot of depth.

>>95194129
And Doom Patrol is one of his earliest works, and hardly the one that gets recommended first. I've read nearly everything he's done and found myself uncompelled to read past the first trade of Doom Patrol as he covered that ground in much more effective and less showy ways later on.

>>95194155
>The entire point of Rebirth was to put quality first again and fix the damage new writers caused with New 52
Anon I disagree with that guy comments about King's run, but lmao.

>>95194155
>implying they think their golden boy caused damage to Batman
>implying he actually did
Come on.

>>95194155
The entire point of Rebirth was to boost sales. Literally, that's it.

>>95194177
I think they'd mentioned that a they'd phoned a few and they didn't pick up or were busy. King seemed like he really wanted to keep those things in mind. Like having superman be told to stay out of the bane thing because "muh robins needs to be safe". Even though that was arguably the most retarded moment of that arc.

This is why i get so mad when people claim I hate king, or I'm an idiot. I wanted to love this. I was strapped in, paying attention ready for the much ballyhooed Tom King to rock my fucking tubulars off. And here I am, with the same smelly socks still having yet to be rocked off.

I battled snyderfags on here through two arcs before seeing it was really no better. just different smelling shit. more earthy than spicy.

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18KB, 600x450px

>>95194155
>he entire point of Rebirth was to put quality first again
Please tell me you don't seriously believe this

>>95190685

lmao I'm glad I dropped it before the end of I am Suicide

King is the new Slott

>>95194241
I agree, I would just never call them smart or good. Or claim that someone who thinks it's lazy can't read.

>>95194226
>>95194272
>>95194276
All I have left to say is you have to be fucking dense not to like this run. Its a return to classical Batman story formats and characterization that we haven't seen since the 80s. Call it a retread all you want but its been a long fucking time since we got a retread of a standard Batman story format with 2-3 issue arcs.

>>95194084
Wanting to seem pretentious is pretty much the definition of pretentious though.

>>95194251
You're an idiot. Doom Patrol is one of his best if not THE best thing he's ever done. And regardless, it's one of the most recommended Morrison comics.

>>95194317
I don't necessarily disagree. But I think it's only pretentious to people who don't see it as clever.

>>95194316
>with 2-3 issue arcs
I Am trilogy where each 5 issues and War of Jokes and Riddles is even longer.

>>95194318
Ok chief, we'll just pretend that you weren't slagging it off for its amateurish allusions and that The Invisibles doesn't exist.

>>95194346
Do you know what the difference is between an arc and a story?

>>95194316
>Its a return to classical Batman story formats and characterization that we haven't seen since the 80s.
Nigga what 80s are you reading? I like King okay but this is hardly some stuff like the olden times. King is following very much in step of Loeb, Morrison and Snyder. At this point you can't even blame a writer for the type of stories and tone they have to have, all you can do is shit on the execution and I hate King's execution.

>>95194316
I'm getting the classic Batman I want with Bane: Conquest. King's Batman is heavily decompressed with storytelling and art I don't like.

>>95194316
Who called it a retread? We've called it lazy, sloppy, over-long or all of the above.

>>95194383
It's kind of crazy how Chuck Dixon is effectively beating the fuck out of the entire DC line by just writing a Chuck Dixon story.

>>95192896

I really wanna know who the artist Doyle wanted was, because there's about a 100% chance they would have drawn prettier pages than David fucking Finch. I mean with all the incredible artists artists DC has right now, King hand-picks Finch and Janin? I just don't get it.

>>95194316
>Kong's run
>a retread of a standard Batman story format with 2-3 issue arcs.
I mean, I like his run better than Snyder, but this isn't true at all.

>>95194375
Anon, do you? Nothing he said there was incorrect.

>>95194368
>you weren't slagging it off for its amateurish allusions
Well, no. I'm not that guy and I think he's an idiot. Your post was just as dumb though.

>>95194368
That wasn't really me ma dood. Although I do believe Doom Patrol is really good and Invisibles is just ok. Morrison's expression are best conveyed in capeshit.
Also, Morrison is still very much in your face symbolism and reference guy, the only difference is that his characters don't usually speak aloud every reference. He's still obnoxious with that stuff.

>>95194403
Rebirth must really be shit then. Glad I bailed early.

>>95194111
>Fix what Batman villains and mythos he can from Snyder fucking it all up

There is no fixing what Snyder did, so with the whole Rebirth reality mending premise, they could have as easily gone any other way.

Instead, we got what King is doing.

>>95194089
Like I said, newer fans don't need to read comics from 20 years ago, but writers also don't need to reinvent the wheel over and over again. The groundwork is already laid for them.

And really, in the podcast King says that in the beginning he felt intimidated by all the wirters that had come before him. And that he finally connected with the character when he stopped trying to live up to them, and found a way to put himself in the comic.

And this was around the "I am Suicide" arc. Where he, ironically, is reinventing Knightfall.

Also, making Bruce slit his wrists.

>>95194479
>but writers also don't need to reinvent the wheel over and over again
Actually, they do. Fuck off with your shitty and safe retreads.

>>95194498
rebirthdrones are truly sick in the head.

>>95194432
Cool, tell me more about what an idiot I am for liking the same author you like when he was a more confident and evolved writer.

>>95194479
>but writers also don't need to reinvent the wheel over and over again. The groundwork is already laid for them.
I wonder how much of this kind of stuff is said unironically while people saying this continue to read capeshit and allusions about them being "oldfags" are very clear.

>>95194479
>Also, making Bruce slit his wrists.
this actually pissed me off. Because otherwise the idea of him being suicidal but wanting to help people would've made I Am Suicide make sense. The way he wrote it it's more like I AM Suicidal.

>>95194519
They don't NEED to anon. They CAN. But they don't NEED to.

Otherwise go read creator owned shit. You're the one that should fuck off from capeshit if you want radically different shit (a reinvention of the wheel).

>>95194316
>classical Batman story formats and characterization that we haven't seen since the 80s

What?!

>>95194454
No, the whole crux of the matter is that Morrison is generally not obnoxious in his allusions, as unlike for instance King he doesn't rely on them as the entire substance of his story.

>>95194588
>he doesn't rely on them as the entire substance of his story.
Literally what Nameless was.

Is King's run going to be the most controversial and polarizing Batman run in history?

>>95194223
>Now tell me what the fuck Albert Camus has to do with an autistically boring dinner issue during the Silent Movie Pose Play of Jokes & Riddles?
Everything.
But seriously you guys have no argument here because now you're contradicting yourself.

>>95194634
Still functioned as a horror story on multiple levels.

>>95194653
It's much easier to poke holes in multiple points of view than engage, isn't it?

>>95194540
Not everyone gets better with age, dummy.

>>95194578
You're the reason why capeshit is mostly shit and looked down upon.

>>95194679
no one has been able to tell me why King's use of sisyphus isn't lazy. They've just been able to tell me I'm an idiot or can't read.

>>95194712
Nice assumptions anon. But you clearly took what you want from my reply. I likely wouldn't fully agree with the original anon I defended there. But i definitely don't agree with your faggot ass.

But sure, continue the personal insults.

>>95194728

>>95193146
>>95193223
That was a while ago now

>>95194690
And not everyone discounts 80% of a respected writer's critically acclaimed output because they need to retain superiority.

>>95194751
It's not a personal insult, it's a reality.

>>95194588
>unlike for instance King he doesn't rely on them as the entire substance of his story.
i just want to remind everyone that these people have a fifth grader's level of reading comprehension and that they have cohesive argument.
Because remember we're talking a single reference to the myth of sisyphus here that came and went.
That the over reliance of references anon is accusing King of, just that one.

>>95194712
Regardless of that, capeshit will still be shit and looked down upon.

>>95194804
Sure. My only problem is that you
1) insulted Doom Patrol
2) tried to imply it's not one of his most recommended and universally liked comics
I like plenty of his newer stuff, Nameless, Annihilator and Klaus included, even if they weren't amazing they were all still very good. Multiversity was just okay though(Pax Americana is a masterpiece) and leaves you very hollow at the end which kinda sucks seeing as he not only revisits ideas he had done recently, but he approached them in the same way too. His stint as EiC for Heavy Metal seems to be reinvigorating him.

>>95194773
Those are both shitty arguments though that have absolutely no substance to them.

>>95194867
Because of people like you.

>>95194891
That anon is King, substance less hack faggot.

>>95194773
And that applies why? it's the basis for the entire conversation from then til now.

>>95194807
You're assumptions are reality?

You know, instead of REEing like I want to let me ask, what do you see as reinventing the wheel? Maybe we don't disagree in spirit, maybe we disagree on the terms.

In order to go forward lets state what we see as reinventing the wheel.

because as it stands you're really just telling me I don't like change when that's kinda the furthest thing from the truth. I just don't like radical change for the sake of a new story. If it's a change that's organic I can accept it. I don't like that Riddler has gotten more sadistic. I don't mind that Joker doesn't tell jokes and is more deadpan than over the top. One seems more organic they way it was presented in the story.

I feel as though where we depart is that (and I don't want to assume as I just called you out for it so feel free to correct me) you don't mind the Riddler being vastly different as long as the story is good.

to simplify: "The stories 'before' don't matter to the stories 'now' as long as we get good stories"

Is that more or less your view?

>>95194403
>>95194498
>>95194537
Chuck "I don't give a fuck" Dixon is the man anon.

>>95194887
Please point me to where I insulted Doom Patrol you insecure child.

>>95194913
That wasn't me anon.

>>95194913
People like me probably are less than 1 percent.

>>95194891
Great rebuttal.

>>95189979
I like him.
You fuckers just a year ago were racing against each other to who would suck his cock first, now he have a big name book and you fucking contrarians act that way

>>95194913
Not him but they'll be looked down upon more if they are being forced to change into something they're not. Aping other things when it doesn't fit or they're only superficially aspects is never worthy of praise. Only derision.

>>95194945
>what do you see as reinventing the wheel?
Frank Miller on Daredevil.

>>95194857
Reread the quoted material slowly, then reread your comment slowly, and then get back to me on why you entirely unqualified to comment on reading comprehension.

>>95190564
Is the 3 Jokers thing something only Snyder can write? 'Cause i think Kite-Man here is going to be one of them

>>95191305
There is worth in long runs if the writer is good and can pull it off, especially if they are playing the long game on a couple plot points.
Claremont's X Men, Wolfman/Perez NTT, PAD's Hulk, PAD's Young Justice, Morrison's Batman, etc.
So like King's Batman may not be worth it if the quality is so flippy floppy, but if Priest has a 40+ issue plan for Deathstroke it's probably worth it because (other than Lazarus Contract) it's a great book.

>>95194987
>now he have a big name book and you fucking contrarians act that way
It's mostly salty Batcucks. I remember the threads of Grayson, comfy shit.

>>95194945
It applies because despite people sticking their heads in the sand there have been valid arguments for the whole thread.

>>95195001
Then I'm not what's wrong with the industry anon. And if that's your example I don't know why you're going to sit here and act like that's comparable to King's Batman.

We'd largely agree. Which is largely why you shouldn't go around assuming things about anons while conflating multiple people

>>95195026
>Claremont's X Men, Wolfman/Perez NTT, PAD's Hulk, PAD's Young Justice, Morrison's Batman, etc.
All shit.

>>95195058
Find me one. Because I've been here the entire time. I didn't see it. I'm not searching for your proof especially if I don't believe it exists.

>>95194951

True, that.

>>95195069
King isn't reinventing the wheel on Batman though.

>>95195003
Let's lay down some basics here anon.
>you have no argument
>saying that king relies on references is dumb
>simply because it isn't true
>you're a retard who should watch his tone.
Do you understand?

>>95195055
He's always been overrated, it started with Grayson. Now that the honeymoon period is over people are starting to wake up, but most people still can't let go of their adoption of the newest designated golden boy.

>>95195090
Already did it once, not doing it again. Putting your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALA over and over again is doing wonders for your argument though, props.

>>95195104
I don't think anyone is capable of understanding your incoherent rambling.

>>95195016
Three Jokers is all Johns actually. Snyder can't touch it.

>>95195124
Those are not valid arguments. They're both incredibly flawed rants that people already refuted.

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>>95195003
>If you develop your issue based on referentiality your story is one note
>if you just make a passing reference you are a pretentious hack
>if it's somewhere in the middle you either didn't think hard enough about it or you made the story too much about it, depends on the coin flip

>>95195080
Uh huh

>>95195140
Ok dumdum.

Dumb frogposter

>>95195171
Show me where sport.

I want King on Martian Manhunter.

>>95195124
I don't know who this other faggot is but you most certainly did not.

Find one for this post all I'll all assume you're full of fucking shit. Best thing is, if you can find the same one you can demand a screen cap to prove to answered me earlier. And if I don't come back with one, you were likely right.

>>95195238
Keep him the fuck away from J'onn.

>>95195238
You gonna actually buy that one?
>06/2015: Martian Manhunter #1 -- 40,239 (+ 66.8%) [37,003]
>07/2015: Martian Manhunter #2 -- 24,957 (- 32.6%)
>08/2015: Martian Manhunter #3 -- 22,540 (- 9.7%)
>09/2015: Martian Manhunter #4 -- 19,738 (- 12.4%)
>10/2015: Martian Manhunter #5 -- 18,416 (- 6.7%)
>11/2015: Martian Manhunter #6 -- 17,038 (- 7.5%)
>12/2015: Martian Manhunter #7 -- 15,962 (- 6.3%)
>01/2016: Martian Manhunter #8 -- 18,655 (+ 16.9%)
>02/2016: Martian Manhunter #9 -- 17,938 (- 3.8%)
>03/2016: Martian Manhunter #10 -- 13,761 (- 23.3%)
>04/2016: Martian Manhunter #11 -- 15,269 (+ 11.0%)
>05/2016: Martian Manhunter #12 -- 12,555 (- 17.8%)

>>95195185
Nice memes, but that doesn't change the fact that laying the point of your entire issue bare with a direct literary reference in a flashback narrative box containing a conversation between the protagonist and his now dead son as he gazes out into the sea is the opposite of clever or well executed.

>>95189979
That's a bad news. He should stay more

>>95195247
I just did like 10 posts ago. If you wanted to engage in an argument you probably already did, failed, and are now resorting to inane circularity in a desperate attempt to save face.

>>95195271
Tom King's name could boost it so it stables out around 25,000.

>>95195271
He shouldn't have stretched a 6 issue story out for 12. He also shouldn't have retconed a perfectly good back story and had him act like a massive cunt at the end. I'm sorry that people don't enjoy mediocrity and don't support it.

>>95190069
Agreed, writing is fine, but Janín fucking kills me. Joelle Jones and Clay Mann doing issues gives me hope.

>>95195275
You seem to flip flop a lot. First you said that reference was pointless, now you're saying it wasn't pointless but too much of a crux. Well which one is it my dude?
>inb4 different posters
Not going to work.

>>95195310
No I gave you a chance to make me look like a fool and you realized it was a setup.

It's real easy, find that same post and re-respond. I'll screenshot it to prove how wrong you were on just that one little thing and then respond to the point you quote.

I've been itching to have that conversation. I literally fucking started it.

>>95195311
His name isn't really big enough to keep it around 25k.

>>95195347
Show me where I said the reference was pointless.

>>95195353
Is 25k really too high of an expectation from King or a writer coming off Batman?
What were Vision's numbers in the end?

>>95195347
literally not the one you're responding to there just here to say "different posters" is half the problem with this thread right now.

it's why making a point instead of makign personal insults is best.

>>95195350
Screenshot where you started then hotshot, because you have been saying a whole lot of nothing for a very long time by my estimation.

>>95189979
Longer runs from a specific writer is something the industry desperately needs in general.

>>95195382
Not when the writer is mediocre. Or has clearly ran out of ideas a long time ago.

>>95195353
We'll have to see where it settles, but Mr. Miracle did extremely well digitally.

>>95195382

Well you're getting your wish. Tynion IV secured sole writing duties of Detective Comics up to issue 1000 and beyond.

>>95195410
Eh could be worse.

>>95195094

I think that by making Bruce explicitly suicidal, and his characterization of Bane, Riddler, and most of the villans that have shown up in War, he is trying too hard to "leave his mark", which is a sad one. And also in a way, very different from what came before. Needlessly different.

Now, i do like different takes on old characters, I'm just saying King sucks on batman

>>95195373
>Is 25k really too high of an expectation from King or a writer coming off Batman?
Considering the current situation of the industry? Yes, especially for chatarcters like J'oon.

Snyder and Johns are the only ones who their names are big enough to draw numbers.

>>95195406
>digital
>mattering
Even Didio admitted a year or so ago that those sales have stagnated

>>95195406
>Mr. Miracle did extremely well digitally
I wonder why? It certainly wasn't because it was a strong opening issue.

>>95195353
Nice try, sweetie.
https://twitter.com/RyanHigginsRyan/status/905228366684372992

>>95195435
>J'oon
J'onn

>>95195445
It's a combination of King dick sucking, ignorant people's first exposure to the glory of Kirby, and people needing their superheroes to take razor blades to their wrists in order to negate their insecurity for reading an ostensibly childish art form.

>>95195445
People don't have shit taste sometimes. This is probably one of those instance.

>>95195379
Anon, you're not the one making demands here. You're the one tellign everyone they're wrong without even knowing which converstion you're having anymore.

Do you even know why I asked to quote posts just ten minutes ago? Do you even remember the context? Do you know why I asked?

If so you could have told me to fuck off about posts and just reiterated why I was wrong. But your failure to even do that pretty clearly shows you're just here to talk shit. No matter to whom or about what.

>>95195484
>people needing their superheroes to take razor blades to their wrists in order to negate their insecurity for reading an ostensibly childish art form
You mean genre you faggot. Also stop projecting this much.

>>95195453
Yeah, because the first issue was extremely well received and was all over comics news which encouraged more to give it a chance. It was because people saw King's name and were I'm so going to pick it up!!

And don't call me "sweetie".

>>95195473
Not him but Don't correct typos.

Me calling Scott Snyder Scoot doesn't mean I don't know how to spell Scott. Just like the anon above who corrected someone for an "i/u" typo in anon's "undefensible".

Typos do exist.

>>95195484
>>95195499
I was implying that it only did so well due to the suicide attempt drawing in readers.

>>95195540
>was
*Wasn't because of

>>95195362
>>95194223

>>95195453
>sweetie
Are you a woman?

>>95195438
A lot of retailers say that the weekly comixology charts are accurate with regard to their own sales more or less.

>>95195556
No because suicide attempt was the big spoiler of the issue and wasn't even referenced a lot in all the pre interviews. People bought the book because they like the author, unlike you who's shitposting about the book he pirated on a korean scat porn website.

>>95195591
Stop trying to assume my gender you fag.

>>95195629
So you're saying that it wouldn't draw in readers wondering why the fuck he did it? Or wondering what the comic is about? Don't be dense anon.

>>95195642
He was presuming not assuming.

>>95195518
Sick screencap, really supported your arguments well.

>>95195582
Notice how two different people responded to the original post....oh wait you already said two different people on the same side of an argument can't exist. My bad.

>>95195683
So, you've just been derailing the entire time?

>>95195742
Nope, I've been having discussion with anyone who wants to engage literally the entire thread. Which isn't you, so goodbye.

>>95195669
No I'm saying it wasn't the premise or a beforehand knowledge. King has been very tight lipped about what the premise was. I didn't know that he slits his wrists and I kept up with a lot of King's interviews. It's crazy how many readers he pulled with vague allusions on what this story is actually about.

>>95195719
Both positions are wrong.
The sisyphus reference ties into Kite man's character so it matters but the story doesn't rely entirely on the reference.

>>95195719
If that was true, you would have attached the screenshot, just to feel even more smug.

>>95195675
He's a shitlord regardless.

>>95195642
>calling others sweetie
>dare to call them fag too

>>95195799
>He asked me if I was a woman
>Wahhhhh what a bad man wahhh
How do even survive real live?

>>95195783
So you agree having it in the first place is unnecessary and pretentious storytelling.

>>95195484
>let's ignore that some of the best DC comics are edgy and were intended for mature audiences.
>let us ignore Green arrow
>let us ignore Vigilante
>let us ignore early Vertigo all together
>superhero comics are only for kids and have never ever been edgy ever.

>>95195764
Fuck you faggot, the thread only got worse when it went from anon calling kings sisyphus reference pretentious and me calling it lazy and the two of us being called fifth graders for those respective views. Since then both of us fully articulated that point while being met with "you're wrong" or "tell me why you think it's lazy/pretentious". Not once was I specifically told why it WASN'T lazy which is what I wanted to to fucking quote for me.

You refused to do so because it proved you were not in fact talking to me if you think you've proven a point, or that you haven't proven a point with any of your posts so you neglected to do so.

So fuck you. No you fucking haven't discussed the topic. You've discussed posters opinions. We don't need faggots like you.

Tell me why it's NOT LAZY to use an on the nose Sisyphus reference. Otherwise YOU HAVE IN FACT BEEN SHITTING THE PLACE UP.

>>95195799
and you're a faggot not a woman. Well, you might think you are. But in the words of Kaecilius "who am i to judge?"

>>95195853
Fuck no you idiot. You don't get to say "I'm wrong but let's say I'm right" becauseI just you showed that either way the argument is presented can be easily refuted.

>>95195861
>Since then both of us fully articulated that point.
No you haven't you fucking idiot.

>>95195939
Oh yes, I very much have faggot. You wont tell me why I'm wrong though, you'll just tell me I'm wrong.

See: >>95193223

>>95195861
I've been saying it's lazy the whole time you colossal fucking retard.

>>95196097
You can't just tell me why?

>>95196122
Then why the fuck did you start bitching at me? You could have prevented this by doing the screenshot thing.

>>95195912
You didn't refute jack shit. No one was ever arguing that the allusion didn't tie into the character.

>>95195783
The thing is you don't realize the actual smart part. You're looking at the on-the-nose use of the sisyphus reference. Not the fact that Kite-Man has been sisyphus since his first King appearance. it never needed to be made explicit.

>>95196192

>>95194773
You started attacking me after I used your post as an example of valid arguments that haven't been acknowledged let alone refuted. Cool off a bit buddy.

>>95195979
Not him but I'll refute this point.
>It's a well-worn trope. That's inherently one reason why it's lazy. Referencing common things, whether you think they're effective references or not, doesn't automatically make them smart or worthy of praise.
First of all, well worn trope is cliche. Trope is the fundamental of storytelling and any fundamental of storytelling comes with established language, cliche comes with implied criticism. So is referencing something popular a trope or a cliche? Well when a trope becomes too repetitive, predictable and boring (it's the same thing everywhere), it's a cliche. For example, using that Inception trailer music in every trailer in the same way for same effect, that's a cliche. What King does however isn't, King is using established language in his text to make a slightly new substance, that new substance being his use of reference which is unique. It would have been a cliche if people used the same reference in the same way before him but that's not the case.
You don't dismiss a trope and its language or simply a premise because they are ever present in fiction, you dismiss the cliche. Learn to distinguish between what's language and what's the final product.

>>95196358
Anon then why did you say: >>95195058

I had stated that nobody refuted me. You told me that part of the conversation was well before that. I said why does the timing matter. You said because people are sticking their heads in the sand.

I just want someone to be able to articulate why I, or I guess you, are wrong.

>>95196412
Your argument is that because I said trope instead of cliche that it isn't lazy?

>>95196412
Are you really trying to argue that no one has ever used a Camus reference with regards to a character struggling with the futility of his existence? Because you really wasted your time.

>>95196460
>>95196412
though I will say I appreciate that. I did learn something.

but you still haven't really refuted me. you just said my point was wrong because I used a lesser word. While it appears you understood the context quite clearly enough to respond to the substance.

>>95196428
That's on me, glossed over isn't. My bad.

>>95192454
I haven't kept up with current batman, batfleck ears need to go

>>95196497
Although I think it started when you took my poke holes comment as an slight against you instead of the idiots who have been failing to put together a basic argument time and time again. We'll share the blame.

>>95196584
Oh I feel like a baffoon my man. It's all cool.

At the end of the day we just want to read shit that isn't lazy and pretentious.

>>95196296
>Kite-Man has been sisyphus since his first King appearance
No one has ever said "man Kite Man sure does remind me of Sisyphus" in these threads.
Not once has anyone tied Sisyphus to Kite Man before King did.

>>95196467
I'm sure people have but that doesn't make it a cliche.
>you dumb fuck

>>95193296
>but it's what the modern comic buying public wants apparently.
Yeah but they have shit taste and I want them to all fuck off. God forbid we go 5 issues without Gotham being reduced to rubble and Bruce being a bitch to his family again.

>>95196467
>>95196492
Well popular and overused things do come with a specific context so I can definitely see how it's a cliche. But then again cliche, which comes with implied criticism, aren't inherently the devil of literary device and can definitely be done well. There the substance loses a lot of its objectivity and it becomes more of a "well I know what it was but I still liked it."
Another thing though, we won't ever stop equating Greeks or Shakespeare with tragedy, Nietzsche with Ubermensch Hegel with contradictions, Sarte with existentialism. These are the philosophy that invaded the structure a long time ago and they have become the structure. Are we better off not using these popular narrative devices? Maybe use them ironically? I don't know.

>>95196896
Stop reading capeshit. It's like you intentionally want to read garbage but you're pissed off that it's not your type of garbage.

>>95196920
But here King isn't employing any literary devices other than the equivalent of citing the Wikipedia page of his influence of the story.

>>95196882
That's the definition of cliche you dumb fuck.

>>95196983
Intertext used as obvious abstract metaphor is a literary device.

>>95197019
So is using syntax.

>>95196998
Mo it's not, what you're saying is absolutely ridiculous.

>>95196981
>Muh comics have always been like this!!!!!
Get some fucking taste you casual. There was a time when Batman actually had detective stories.

>>95197019
But I think this is where the making the reference explicit rather than implied does a disservice.

as anon noted:
>>95196833

But that nobody noted it doesn't mean it wouldn't have been noted or that it ever needed to be. That it was subtle before was smart. Making it obvious so it lands is lazy and takes away some of the cleverness.

>>95195340
>Joelle Jones and Clay Mann doing issues gives me hope.
Oh shit, really?

Might pick it up for her arc.

The poser art just turns me off like no other.

>>95197062
Not as ridiculous as the idea that the reference King employed was both novel and well-executed.

>>95197062
>Mo
It's 'no'
If you kepe making theese typos, peopl are gonna dowt your ability to speel Scott correctley.

>>95196833
He's an inherently absurdist character that King crowbarred pathos onto. Anyone who made that comparison would have been ridiculed, but for some reason King gets praised for it.

>>95197250
Focusing on typos is a bitch move that only shows how little of an argument you have.

>>95197301
That was my second post in the thread, first being >>95197200
I haven't actually been following the chain, just wanted to funpost

I don't think Camus references come up enough to be cliched, so fwiw, I agree with you.

>>95197367
Doesn't matter, focusing on typos is a bitch move.

>>95197397
Stay mad, ESL.

>>95197266
Nothing about kite man is absurd in the context of Superhero comics.

File: 1502553099765.jpg (48KB, 400x462px) Image search: [Google]

48KB, 400x462px

>>95197191
>implying it was ever good
>implying genrefiction outside of few instances was or will ever be good

>>95197415
Trying to act superior over this makes you look like a right cunt.

>>95197431
Except that he based his persona of a kite. And also everything else he's done in King's run.

>>95197192
>But that nobody noted it doesn't mean it wouldn't have been noted or that it ever needed to be.
Well that's just how non poetic metaphor used in these specific context works, you don't need it to understand whole of the story but once you know, you have another thing to juxtapose it with. You are also assuming that it's just a one of thing and thus inherently shallow, if King does decide to expand more of Kite Man's tales, he can play with the knowledge that we have. He has contextualized, he can recontextualize to subvert our expectations or play it straight. It's why I actually find it really hard and somewhat useless to criticize unfinished works and I try not to take one position or the other until it's in the bag.

>>95197639
>the text equivalent of the jerk off motion

>>95197678
Not really a disagreement I guess?

>>95197639
Look, I admitted I was wrong on my word choice. You're not my teacher. You aren't telling me anything new. You are very articulate but it doesn't change the crux of our disagreement; I completely disagree that just because he can ass-pull later on means I have to believe he planned something. I explained why I thought hitting it on the nose was a bit absurd and you basically told me "but maybe it's absurd we dont know. we dont have to." after assuming he was employing a non-poetic metaphor. So the way you've phrased it we've basically come to "you don't know it's bad and I think it could be good".

As it stands, in it's two-shot interlude of an 8-part story, which is not a self contained piece as some tard above asserted, we have Kite-Man who's been a Sisyphus analog through King's interpretation.

I myself said that was quite smart. I also said, like Bruce actually cutting and like Bane and Bruce's similarities being visually mirrored, he decides to bash the reader over the fucking face with that.

Sure, maybe he subverts it later on. But with the way he talks in interviews, the way the reviews don't pick up on any of it, I don't think he will.

>>95198071
*"maybe it's absurd on purpose"

also the jerking motion was not me. though i did laugh. this thread has become a the dick measuring contest I hoped it wouldn't be here:>>95193687

>>95190690
what are the 'slottisms' that make someone the new slott?

>>95198250
Being full of yourself, never ever leaving a title, writing story events that have every intention of making fans mad and then balking when they express their anger to you.

>>95191725
OH MY EFFING GOD

>>95198071
I see your point in that he didn't have to make the analogue and it could've been left up to interpretation but I disagree completely. If it's not expressed, we can consider Kite Man to be any tortured bloke and that's too wide an area to come to a meaningful conclusion in context of this story. Could he have done it with more tact, so it's still clear but also interpretable or made clear by some other way? Sure, that's an argument to make but I do think King did alright by it because I think it might be the best way for him to move forward. There isn't just one right way to tell a story but a story definitely has the best possible way to get to its outcome.
Also the thing about criticism, I don't think your point are totally invalid because story isn't over. To assume it's definitely going the way I imagine or going anywhere at all would be disingenuous to any shared opinions but there's definitely a danger in preemptively calling things out. Our criticism might become misplaced or totally unfounded in retrospect. That's something we need to accept but regardless of what happens, there will still be quality and truth in the opinions expressed or shared.