Why are the nips just so much better at drawing fight scenes?

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>>95079077
Scott McCloud explains that on his book.

Western, or at least capeshit, generally doesn't use "moment to moment" transitions between pannels. So it can't recreate action as well visually (as drama, and as many other things). That gives mangas a more "cinematic" feeling, and that's why adaptations to anime tend to be more authentic to the source material than the cartoon adaptations: the groundwork is already laid out in the manga pannels.

And also, in western, the action is more "simbolic". It's there to convey the narration and little else. You see that civil war pannel you put? We have seen the same pannel millions of times with millions of different costumed heroes. The message is clear and to the point: this guy punch this other guy in the face and that's it. The rest of the information is usually given by the text.

In that specific pannel you put of dragon ball, you know important shit it's happening: there's no motion blur, there's no sorroundings, and the level of detail makes you think that picture took a huge pannel. It gives a feeling of "slow motion" to the reader so he knows that pannel had meaning.

Also, dragon ball doesn't respect anatomy as much, his heavy stylization gives the artist freedom to forget about certain rules in order to give emphazis and drama to the action.

>>95079228
aspect to aspect transitions*

Fuck, it's been a while since I read that book

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>>95079077
another weeb west vs east thread

Becauseri manga 50x as man panels on it

>>95079077
Not always.
You ever read volume one of dragonaire Academy

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>>95079077
Another thing: capeshit comics are usually more "masculine" in the sense that the plot have more relevance than the characters feeling.

In a manga fight scene, we usually get in the head of the character a lot. We explore his fears, his tension, his plans, his memories about similar situations...that way can be more inmersive and the action usually have more meaning behind.

In a capeshit comic? not so much. If Iron Man wants to punch Captain America, he punch him. The action is delivered without much hesitation.
Are we going to explore the effects of the punch in the mind of Captain America? He took a huge cross to the jaw by a guy with metal fists. Are we going to read about how afraid he is for the safety of his brain after a lifetime of trading punches with superpowered people? Is he going to remember that time the doctor reminded him about the dangers of CTE? Do you think he's going to reevaluate his strategy after that?

Probably not. In the next pannel he's either answering Iron Man with a bigger punch or receiving one. And in few pages the whole thing will be over.

In the manga Vagabond, there's a fight scene that last at least two chapters before any of the characters make a single move. And it WORKS.


>>95079263
Not really. If you count the number of pannels per page, american comics tend to use more. They also put more text to deliver the information. Mangas just take their time to set up the action and doesn't rely on text as much.

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>>95079305
There's always exceptions, but I think OP is talking about the general trend.

>>95079255
I don't think this should be a war, but a chance to discuss the different approachs to a medium we love


>>95079342
About the masculine and femenine thing.

An author once said theres masculine elements and femenine elements to a story.

Masculine = actions
Femenine = feelings

Too masculine = michael bay shit where we don't care about the characters and we only want to see things moving and fast

Too femenine = 50 shades of grey shit where the narrator spends pages and pages and pages narrating with cringe detail how wet this buff white dude makes her.

The beauty exist in the balance of the two.

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>>95079380

Manga is just as dumb as capeshit but capeshit takes itself way too fucking seriously. Manga authors aren't afraid to give characters goofy poses in order to emphasize action or drama.

>>95079367
Looks good. More?

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>>95079391

the west has not accepted speedlines into their hearts

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>>95079398
>>95079399

>>95079399
Why are you posting this shit.

>>95079397
Not really. Capeshit have characters like Deadpool or Spiderman that are not afraid of physical comedy.

>>95079405
Speedlines are a gods gift

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Most American comic writers focus on the story over the action,take the fight you posted OP,Millars script tells the artist what needs to be SAID by each character in the fight not what needs to be done,that leaves the artist with the job of making sure everything fits on a page unlike say a mangaka whose ability as an artist AND a writer means the knowledge of when to focus on the fight

For the manga that type of creation carries it's own problems like fights becoming repetive,used to fill time for story(looking at you bleach) whereas I can rarely think of many western fights that drag,also on occasion you get guys like Tradd Moore who manage to craft the action inspite of a word heavy script rather than action heavy

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>>95079411

>>95079381
>Too masculine = michael bay shit where we don't care about the characters and we only want to see things moving and fast
>Too femenine = 50 shades of grey shit where the narrator spends pages and pages and pages narrating with cringe detail how wet this buff white dude makes her.
Huh, that actually makes sense.

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It's pretty simple. Nips are better at drawing than Westerners.

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>>95079426
When you're able to express so much in a fight scene, you don't need a single word bubble.

>>95079443
I bet a good chunk of the budget went to the voice actors

>>95079447
This shit looks like utter garbage.

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>>95079421
I genuinly believe in some cases the writers should be smart enough to just submit

>>[Page 10]-[page 15] Fight,winner :character X

And let the artist role with it

>>95079077
Because mangaka are artists that draw their own stories and capeshit artists are interchangeable and replaceable cogs in the DC / Marvel corporate machine. If Toriyama wants to introduce demons and aliens and gods into his manga, he can just go and have fun with it. Whoever takes over drawing Batman comics can't decide shit because he's just hired hands.

>>95079447
This looks like shit mr weeb

>>95079447
Did he regrow a finger?

>>95079465
Crafting a story is serious stuff and most western artist don't have that skill.

>>95079342
>Vagabond
My nigga.
Also, in Vagabond, fights are a means to an end.
Everytime Musashi has a fight, it leads to character development, it leads to him changing his ways, it leads to him being smarter next time. For example, when he fought "The Demon / Oni / Forgot his name it's been ages" and how he continued after that made the fight make sense and important.

Then we have Marvel and DC. None of it does. I tried reading one of these events, and I found myself either speedreading it, or just outright skipping through most of it.

>>95079397
>le too seriously meme
Oh, it's one of those retards.

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At last comics have colors. Why are mangas always black and white?

I would love to see capeshit comics with no dialog. Do you have any example?

>>95079447
>When you're able to express so much in a fight scene, you don't need a single word bubble.
What exactly is being expressed here?

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>>95079447
>guy #1 kick guy #2 in the face
WEW LAD TRULY AMAZING

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>>95079486
Cheaper, faster. And some guys just only need black and white to gives us good shit if they are good enough

>>95079465
what's happening in the first panel?

How come neither can have actually engaging fights? The only times I actually enjoyed a fight scene in a drawn medium instead of thinking "oh, it's just an obligatory boring fist fight" were a couple of moments from Punisher MAX.

>>95079500
So do you think good fight scenes are when everything is shown in step by step detail?

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>>95079511
Berserk is one of the shites mangas I have ever read

>>95079486
>Why are mangas always black and white?
So its quicker and cheaper to make them silly.

...but the picture on the right looks better?

>>95079518
You ever read Southern Bastards?

>>95079500
Good shit

>>95079530
Nope. But thanks for reminding me about Aaron, because Dash vs Diesel from Scalped was another good fight. Maybe I'm better off reading crimeshit instead.

>>95079520
Actually, yes. It's more than: it's less about the destiny and more about the journey. And also, since there's no text to read, the information is delivered faster

>>95079518
Vagabond.
>>95079522
Not that guy.
How come?
>>95079520
Yeah, he could've picked any other fight scene from that comic.

Manga>Comics
There is a reason why manga is popular and not comics.

>>95079533
Jesus this is bad. The art is decent but the composition, framing and delivery of the fight is really bad.

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O'Neil, Miller and Baron literately were white men who looked East for inspiration and ended up doing it better that Japs ever could
they are Batman

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>>95079479
True but I still think that's mostly because lots of western artists for there styles to make cool looking panels rather than sequences,besides I personally feel like good writing super cedes action in the west,the best comic works V for vendetta,Killing Joke,Daredevil born again,All star superman etc there best moments come from the writing the art is secondary

>>95079548
>How come?
It's to long and it should ended like 10 years ago

>>95079447
>>95079426
>>95079411
>>95079367
This is bait but these series of pictures sums up all my issues with these threads and the examples they post.

I don't give a shit about these people. I don't give a shit about why they're fighting, and while a series is not obligated to sell me feelings from a couple of random images, it doesn't even have a hint of feeling.

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>>95079522
For sure

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how about not reading capeshit

>>95079565
Big guy

>>95079570
That looks like shit.

>>95079549
Comics are not popular, but the characters are.

>>95079546
Yeah read more crimeshit.

Especially fucking Southern Bastards. Especially the first arc.

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Manga often has a lot more time to do what it needs to because of sheer page count and most importantly - pricing.

A weekly manga, for instance, averages about 18 pages. That gives it 72 pages a month compared to cape's 22 pages per month. A monthly manga sits around 30-40 pages. This means that manga can have these large fight scenes without fans feeling like it's dragging on far too much.

As to pricing - for less than the cost of one Marvel comic you can get most manga magazines. They're anthologies - you get several mangas within the one magazine. Since the reader feels like they're getting value for their dollar, they don't think it's necessary to compress the story. Marvel/DC comics are difficult to balance; move too fast and readers feel rushed, move too slowly and readers are unhappy with their money spent.
The best example I can give of how much more flexibility manga has is Onepunch Man's manga. gif related is literally an entire chapter - no words, no real plot outside of what can be described in a single sentence: "Metal Knight arrives". And it's fuckin great.

>>95079077
because manga artists study cartooning

western artists don't study at all, and if they do it's "illustration" not cartooning

C.C. Beck talked about this in the 70s, about how the then-new generation of comics artists were just guys who could draw really well but never learned cartooning

>>95079552
That jump is weird. In fact, most 80s comics have really weird fighting poses.

>>95079552
>panel 2: one leg on each side of the guy
>panel 3: both legs behind him
BRAVO

>>95079562
What these threads are actually about isn't fight scenes they're action sequences.

>>95079595
The jump looks like he's doing one of those squat kicks with both legs.

>>95079570
Good shit. Give me source

>>95079580
>t. brainlet

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How about the french?

>>95079599
Seems to me that he's kicked the guy's leg out from under him, then swooped it around to take him in the head. It's the same leg that was in front of him in panel 2 that is kicking in panel 3.
Doesn't seem that hard to understand

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Nobody here is mentioning any European comics. Even though they have a great track record of quality comics.

>>95079631
source please

>>95079547
>it's less about the destiny and more about the journey
I got nothing from that journey other than I don't know or care about these people and some of that shit looks stupid in the context of martial arts.

>>95079627
if you are going to do action by action panels, leaving out actions is gonna leave the reader confused

he couldnt have moved his leg from the front to the back in one motion since the other guy's leg is stretched and blocking the path

the easy solution would have been to have the victim's leggin pointing up being bent at the knees

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>>95079637
LastMan. It has been storytimed for the past few weeks on /co/. It has its own series:
http://kimcartoon.me/Cartoon/Lastman
Good luck finding the comics.
It also has a fightan game as well.

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>>95079631
>>95079615
>>95079640
YFW the guy that drew this did a thing with Hitomi Tanaka once.

>>95079631
good shit, source man

>>95079639
>I don't know or care about these people
read the full comic
> some of that shit looks stupid in the context of martial arts.
agree, but no one cares.

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>>95079607
Luthor strode I think,read it it's one hell of a ride

>it's another /co/ gets BTFO episode.

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I advise listening to Carpenter Brut and Death Grips mash-ups while reading LastMan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn7gK73uxsM

>>95079657
>he couldnt have moved his leg from the front to the back in one motion since the other guy's leg is stretched and blocking the path
That's why it looks like he's tripped the guy up. The guy is falling down, and not from the kick. He's swept the leg, just like he was taught at Kobra Kai.

block/punch
prepare for trip
trip into kick
reposition, second kick
then for some reason he does a jump.

idk man I don't think it's a great action sequence (the one someone posted for Question is better) but it certainly didn't confuse me.

>>95079669
>read the full comic
So the fight scene is so shit at having any meaning other than being a fight that I have to read the entire comic to get any feeling for the characters involved?

>>95079673
>that pose in the thrid pannel
good shit
>that anatomy in the second to last
wtf

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>>95079697
>>95079671
>>95079659
>>95079640
>>95079631
>>95079615
Fucking French guy does better action than all of DC and Marvel comics.

>>95079673
What the fuck is going on in this

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The timing in this comic is utterly brilliant, the panels, how he uses the page flips. Not to mention how cathartic this was, seeing Adrian let loose on such a level, Richard redeeming himself. Every hit that connects feels like a truck. It's absolutely great.
>>95079673
It is the same reason why I loved Strode. Thanks Anon for posting. I need to "re-watch" it.

>>95079681
Most of /co/ doesn't read manga,I'm genuinly surprised Noones brought up some same face manga,Togashi scribbles or QUALITY Attack on titan art

>>95079703
If you remove parts of your car, don't be surprised if it doesn't work

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>>95079708
I was listening to the song I linked, and the scene and the song and I both climaxed at this point. It was perfect.

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>>95079228
>>95079342
pretty much this. Just as an example, these are two pages from Steel Ball Run. You can see how every action gets a panel. A conflict that would've taken a page in a western comic takes about five pages here, but it works the same.

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>>95079697
>memerap

>>95079708
It's uncanny how well the music works

>>95079711
>Togashi scribbles
Those don't really count. They're not representative of the rest of the manga or his work, they're just out of necessity because of his back problems.

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>>95079724

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>>95079704
It's Tradd moored Style,slim people are slanky and energetic,big guys are huge with muscles out of early jojo,these guys are basically pillar men so the anatomy is out of the ordinary

>>95079713
>If you remove parts of your car, don't be surprised if it doesn't work
You say this as someone posts examples from another comic that manages to make the character involved actually have character in a fight.

So it tells me nothing about the characters and the story, why should I care about it.

>>95079738
Can you tell me how Question or the bad guys they are trying to kill him don't have a character on the fight

>>95079738
He kick dude in face.

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>>95079736
And here's his art for less over the top body features

>>95079639
also they make those snarling/laughing poses, which I guess means they are badass or something?

>>95079700
the move he's doing is a scissor takedown
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnpHEXghM-Q
it works by applying leverage in two different directions on an opponents body, toppling him over, it's not necessary to actually sweep the leg

if the leg had been swept, it would be bent instead of stretched out

if you have tried the move yourself you have a better feel for how it would work out

i realise typing this out that i might be being a bit pedantic, but still that sequence immediately looked off to me

>>95079755
Because they don't.

There's no moment where something unique about the character's involved is shown. Their faces don't even change that much as they fight.

That fat dude when he hits the cabinets looks as angry as we assume he looked when he was trying to choke Question from behind.

It would look kind of stupid but if we were to change Question for the fat man would anything change or not make sense? Sure I guess the fat guy throwing a kick to the face of a taller man would be weird but would anything about the character's shown there contradict that?

>>95079781
Alright, that's a reasonable argument. I'm going to stand by my belief that it looks fine from a martial nobody outlook, but I can definitely see why it would look shitty from your end.
It's a common problem in comics. Like when a gun looks off and /k/ gets sad, or when a "genius" is a moron. Comic artist wants to make him look like a skilled fighter but doesn't actually know how it goes.

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>>95079706
... and manga. Maybe Vagabond or Berserk can compete, or the works of Jiro Taniguchi. I will always be thankful for the Anon that storytimed his work when he passed away.

>>95079673
Wait. This luther strode? Wasn't it just a just about a kid violently beating up thugs. This looks like a completely different story.

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>>95079818

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>>95079831
I just hope that the mods don't ban me for posting a few pages from a manga, but it is relevant to the discussion. I loved this sequence 'cause it shows a lot about the character without any text during the actual fight.

>>95079500
>pannel 1: the villain is a coward, and he has not been in enough fights, but he kinda knows what works. Strangling a guy usually works. Attack from behind usually works.

>pannel 2: now you can see this is not the first time Question has been choked from the exact same position, so he inmediatly knows what to do and grab the wrists to defend the choke oppresing him.

>pannel 3: question could have kicked the guy in the nuts, but choses to see the face of the man to obtain information

>pannel 4: a knife is drawn. We don't know from where it's going to come, but we know it's going to come

>pannel 5: Question, even if he's faceless, puts a dissmisal look on his face as he spinning heel kicks the guy, knowing perfectly that, with that, the villain is not going to cause him any more trouble for a while.

>pannel 6: the villain is, at the very least, tagged. He's going to be out of action for a while, giving Question more time

>pannel 7: a knife is coming at full speed. We don't see where it's coming from: and Question doesn't, either. So we literally walk on his shoes

>pannel 8: now we know it. Question has been literally stabbed in the back. And you didn't need to be stabbed in the back to know how much it hurts. Even if Question is faceless, we can relate to his pain and surprise.


Good storytelling overall.

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>>95079843
This part is just a work of art.

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>>95079854

>>95079845
You do realize that it wouldn't be that hard to switch the Question and the fat man in this narration you have right?

because manga fights can last multiple chapters and people are fine with it
can you imagine buying captain america and having him be in a fistfight with crossbones for 3 months
that wouldn't fly here

>>95079818
>and manga. Maybe Vagabond or Berserk can compete, or the works of Jiro Taniguchi
what about Yusuke Murata, or this guy?

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>>95079864
Basically, he missed on purpose. Shooting the mirror showing that it all fell apart, his life, and this whole gunslinging bullshit is the reason. He deliberately missed, the mirror is already broken when the bullet starts flying towards him, and then these pages show his acceptance. Now, my point with these pages are the following:
>actions of a character show more about the character than what they say
>the order of the sequence changes the meaning of the story

Americans don't do this. It's punch after punch. No sequence, nothing that adds to the characters as have others stated before me.

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>>95079884
forgot image

>>95079864
Adrenaline pumps makes you see bullets? Asking for a friend

>>95079872
Yes, it would have. Because during the page they have shown they are nothing alike.

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>>95079884
This guys i s Taniguchi, and yes, I totally forgot about Murata, that guy is utterly insane with his art.
>>95079898
Highly doubt it.

>>95079579
for u

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>>95079909
This guy is*. Fuck me.
Last page.
Here you can also see the colors change, even though it's just a black and white manga. Up until now everything was slow, big pages, huge panels, you can see the bullet, his feet lifting up, everything. Then it speeds up. Not that much, but back to normal speed. You get this feeling that his grand death, what his life lead up to, his redemption, didn't mean a damned thing. It's heart-breaking. He himself pulled his own soul into this deep dark well of regret and self-hate and he himself kept pushing his soul back down there everytime. He felt he belonged there, so he had to stay there. It's saddening. That's why I love this sequence.

>>95079889
>No sequence, nothing that adds to the characters as have others stated before me.

In America a punch is just a punch

>>95079943
In America a punch is 5-10 in the slammer.

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I'm going to post a fight scene that I really like.

>>95079898
>Yes, it would have. Because during the page they have shown they are nothing alike.
>Panel 1: Behind the unaware villain Question slaps his hands in a choke that isn't effective for anything other than intimidation.
>Panel 2: Fat man reveals himself to be a skilled fighter and Question's decision to underestimate this seemingly innocuous man backfires.
>Panel 3: The fat man easily outgrapples a reeling Question
Panel 4: A knife is drawn
>Panel 5: Almost humored by how easily he overpowered the hero, the fat man kicks him away.
>Panel 6:The Question goes down
>Panel 7:A knife is about to hit
>Panel 8:The fat man is stabbed in the back by a bystander to save the troubled

Because as it turns out, each panel can be taken and have as much shitty fucking overthinking it, and trying to give panels, that were probably just drawn in sequence because they looked interesting meaning.

"Question could have kicked the guy in the nuts but choses to see the face of the man to obtain information"? Are you fucking serious?

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>>95079958

>>95079898
You know admitting that the page you posted was just a meaningless action sequence doesn't make the series suddenly shit.

>>95079968
>Behind the unaware villain Question slaps his hands in a choke that isn't effective for anything other than intimidation.
Why would Question do that? He already shown in the fight to know better. Because he already knows how to properly defend a choke, he would at the very least be more careful.

You see? It doesn't work.

anyone have the Superman fight from the most recent Dark Knight Returns 3 or whatever

>>95079986
I didn't post it. And the other guy is basically saying "the series doesn't work because this separate part, without the context, doesn't work"

Full of shit, to be honest.

>>95079077
This thread gets really tiresome when you make it every day OP.

http://desuarchive.org/co/search/text/Nips/type/op/

>>95079995
>Why would Question do that?
Because it's an innoccous fat man that the Question has a foot on and in the series proper the Question was always sort of a ass at times when he wasn't giving lectures on Objectivism?

Also if you want to bring in knowledge of fighting, you do realize the wrap around choke from behind is purely instinctual right? Nobody goes for that retarded as choke due to not only biological conditioning but media showing that that's the way to choke people.

>>95080026
Please tell me that's not how it ends.

>>95080009
>And the other guy is basically saying "the series doesn't work because this separate part, without the context, doesn't work"
So you jumped into an argument and didn't even manage to see what the other side was saying?

>>95080026
>Alan Moore

How did I fucking know?

>>95080009
So to argue against him you're going to be equally full of shit?

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This is the end.

>>95079958
>Captain Britain
great taste.

>>95080070
Do they actually chop his head off?
Is the rest of the series even remotely as great as this fight? I want to know more about this.

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>>95080087
The series is great. It's called The Jasper's Warp or Crooked World. And no, The Fury doesn't die only because you chopped its head off.

>>95079465
>>[Page 10]-[page 15] Fight,winner :character X
Literally the Marvel Method.

>>95080087
>Do they actually chop his head off?
No, the Fury strikes back afterwards.
The series is Alan Moore's Captain Britain run. It's a great read, a bit underrated.
The only real problem with his run is that its beginning ties in directly with the end of the previous run, and the latter is usually not collected alongside the Moore run. This way, you lose a bit of context, but it's still enjoyable.

>>95079821
It escalates. The method he used to get buff turns out to date back to the biblical Cain, and tons of mythological and historical heroes used it, and many are still around serving Cain.

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>>95079077
your example is terrible the panel on the right is far better.

Japan used to have better action paneling as >>95079228 points out, but now it's filled with lazy action lines that are just...well fucking lazy. speed lines != action and yet that's all they rely upon these days.

This isn't even an action shot and it shows how western comics have used speed line far better than any manga has. Ferrerya > any Nip

>>95079486
>>95079524
Better much this when you consider that a lot of popular manga is released on a weekly or monthly basis

>>95079580
You can't find a manga that does better

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>>95079981
Amazing

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>>95080279
tho better is up for debate, as the guy who posted that pic let me give it a try

i like these threads, but not for the reason people post them i fear

>>95080023
>Nobody goes for that retarded as choke due to not only biological conditioning but media showing that that's the way to choke people.
False

I've noticed that western comics seem to rely on punches way more than any other kind of attack. It's just haymakers over and over with maybe the occasional drop kick if you're Spider-man or a girl.

>>95080023
>He had a foot on him
>So is this bystander armed with a knife
Reconsider your life

>>95080408
Punches are cost effective and if you show a guy doing a spinning kick he is now the "martial arts guy". You know what should be more use? Leg kicks. And oblique kicks. And any move of Jon Jones

>>95080408
I think it's just a habit. Artists are used to punches and writers are used to writing them in the fights, so they don't bother with other techniques.
Also, as >>95080450 said, having a character kick or use a particular move is a visual cue for "this guy/gal is trained in martial arts".
Certain mainstream authors and indie artists might try something different, but books by the ig two are always going to be streamlined like that.

why are manga artists so lazy these days. They don't draw any good anatomy and poses, they just throw in a ton of speed lines and call it good enough

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>>95079077
I don't know, OP. I have to say that the absolute best Fight scenes I' have ever seen put to paper are in Mangas, but I don't think they're objectively better. For example, in the picture you posted, OP, Iron Man's punch feels much heavier than Goku's. I understand the weight, and how it's metal and not flesh. Goku's punch, on the other hand, feels very "Mortal". Fleshy, and not cold and hard like the metal coating Stark's punch. To answer your question: I think it comes to how the West and East perceive violence and "weight" differently. Usually, Western violence is much heavier and slower, there's a lot of emphazis in the power. Eastern, on the other hand, tends to be faster. There's velocity, and action feel as if it happened in a blink of an eye. To me, the violence portrayed in a comic like "Suiciders" feels more destructive, heavier and more mortal, while the one in "Vagabond" feels and looks fast, precise and elegant. "Dragon Ball Z"' violence always feel vert disciplined, not random, for it bases it's dynamics from martial arts with a lot of discipline built into them, like Kung Fu and classic Karate, while a capeshit comic tends to take inspiration from more militarstic violence. It's sloppier, and rawer. Of course, this doesn't apply to all western nor eastern properties, for example "Sun-Ken Rock" bases it's violence on more street fight, to death kind of brawls, whilst the violence in ATLA tends to be very precise.

But hey, man, it's just my way of seeing things.

>pic related: Suiciders

>>95080013
The only thing this those threads have in common is the word "nip"

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>>95079077
Moon Knight has his share of great fight scenes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbMj9f0mcBA

>>95080211
>your example is terrible the panel on the right is far better.

>A literally who western artist being better than Akira fucking Toriyama in his prime
>A static right cross being better than dynamic punch to the gut

Shit-tier taste.

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this is how you properly do speed lines. They are almost invisible and yet add a ton to the page

call me when nips learn this

>>95080672
>A literally who western artist being better than Akira fucking Toriyama in his prime

Isn't that Niven? Just because you're a pleb from /a/ doesn't mean anyone who isn't an artist you recognize is a literal who

>>95080672
>literally who western artist
it's you who have shit taste. Ferreyra is one of the best western artists in the big two currently.

>>95080681
I like Ferreyra, I'm surprised how GA managed to get him and Schmidt.

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Western artists just dont have what it takes to capture the intensity, suspense, and cinematic quality a fight needs.

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>>95080718
I'm surprised that GA is still a 2 book a month book. Even Aquaman failed that test. But as an Olliefag I am happy as hell

>>95080760
This shit is so fucking terrible. It's terrible, just a bunch of lines, is that supposed to tell you action is happening off panel? This is a fucking joke and anyone who thinks this is good should fucking kill themselves

>>95080681
The speed lines are nice, but man, that composition is static as fuck.

>>95080791
>black canary
>static

I'll give you the vehicle but come on Black Canary is moving through a bunch of poses

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>>95080772
What's wrong? Too dynamic and intense? Not enough shitty static posing for ya?

>>95080818
god that is terrible. No interaction between the character, even the last panel doesn't have them connecting. Why is manga so bad?

>>95080808
Yeah and they're all super static. There's no twist, there's no instability, only the final pose has a decent line of action, and they don't flow well together.

>>95080654
Oh shit, I totally forgot about that. Those 6 issues were the dopest of dopes and toppest of tops. It used its backgrounds and colors respectfully, it lead your eyes through the whole fight scene, and you never lost sight of what was going on or what was at stake for the character. Absolutely great. Strip Panel Naked should get more views.

>>95080848
>No interaction between the character, even the last panel doesn't have them connecting.

A little too obvious with your bait there pal. You can only pretend to be retarded so much before it becomes obvious.

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>>95080645
good post

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>>95080872
you and me see comics very differently. I see a TON of movement in the picture I posted. I see none in >>95080818

>>95080913
not bait. It's terrible, there is just a pose with a bunch of speed lines with no context. It's fucking terrible. Just cause you have history with it doesn't mean it's good

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>/co/ would consider thi the epitome o western comic fight scenes

>>95080937
>>95080915
these are good
>>95080818
>>95080760
these are not

>>95080699
>can't knock out a guy with a sucker elbow
>goes for a high kick, heel first
comic artist really need to watch more fights

>>95079465
I think a good fight scene needs to be about more than a fights b and b wins or something. Like why are they fighting is a pretty important question. For example.

>>95080949
The very disliked event, that was heavily criticised here on /co/?

>>95080654
God bless Warren Ellis.

>>95080918
Don't get me wrong, I'm not the guy posting Dragon Ball. Black Canary's pretty good on the cover you posted, although I think it'd be better with more curve in her spine. Ninja sword lady is awful though.

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>>95080955
>This pleb is seriously trying to shit on Toriyama who is considered one of the best in both the East and the West

>>95080987
The artistry, not the event.

>>95080949
I've grown into hating these kind of pannels. So contrived. So forced.

>>95080645
One last thing:

The West has historically been more influenced by the military and conquest. Violence was always a medium to acquire something. Fighting wasn't personal, but instead something grand and world changing. I think that's why the East has an advantage when it comes to portraying that type of violence: They understand the human connection in a fight, while us Westerners usually don't.

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Literally how can western artists compete?

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this is what bothers me the most about western comics, they have such a huge variaty of characters, yet you mostly see generic poses from generic angles. While manga always manages to find new and interesting poses for their variaty of characters.

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there is also a lack of impact.

>>95080994
yeah, Cheshire isn't the greatest there. She is sexy but not dynamic or anything. I give you that one.
>>95081002
just cause someone is popular doesn't make them good. Please enlighten me, why is that good? It's literal shit

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>>95081023
They cant.

>>95080762
what... it's already monthly. Latest solicit only had 1 book for that month.

>>95081002
>Toriyama
>Best
Most popular probably, but best? Hardly.

>>95081023
terrible
>>95081033
interesting but a little overblown, but that's coming from someone who hates Crossed
>>95081052
god damn perfect in every fuck way, wow. Name please?

>>95081072
wow, that's news to me. my last few pulls have been double for it. is it a one month thing or official?

Still, I think it lasted as a bimonthly book more than anyone expected

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also eventhough a lot of heroes are martial artists, the artists don't even bother with martial arts-esque poses and let them do some generic poses they barely remember from some old ass western martial arts movies.

>>95080949
no they don't. I don't even.

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>>95079548
>Vagabond.
Weirdly enough, the best fight was the one that had the least amount of action.

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>>95080949
at least post low tier bait instead of shit teir

>>95081107
I think Immortal Iron Fist handled it pretty well. the DCYou Midnighter as well. I haven't gotten any pages saved though.

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>>95081058
>Please enlighten me, why is that good? It's literal shit

Toriyama is a master at drawing dynamic scenes. He knows exactly how to convey both power and speed in whatever he draws. This can be accomplished without cluttering the page like these "better" pictures

>>95080937
>>95080915

His artwork is clean, simple, and to the point while also conveying a multitude of different aspects such as detail and fluidity. The two DB pages I posted exemplify his skill perfectly.

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>>95081165
>His artwork is clean, simple
That is mostly because it's weekly though.

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>Western comics will never have a death as emotional as this

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>>95079673
>>95079465
Is this the same guy who did the first half of All New Ghost Rider?

>>95081165
what the fucking shit? This page makes no sense at all. The panels don't even connect logically. each panel is a leap in time that doesn't connect one to the next. This is terrible

let me break it to you, just cause someone is popular doesn't make them good. DBZ is popular, it is not good

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>>95081198

>>95079447
Bad example. Post something from Touch or Katsu instead; highlights the DRAMATC impact without any bubbles.

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even weekly manga put a lot of thought on fighting poses and impact.

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>>95081198
I can't tell what's going on there, but at least it's better than this shit

>>95081231
Anon, you're supposed to read from right to left.

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>>95079077

Notable manga artists pay better attention to detail to the entire action sequence.

I can only name a couple of western artists who did proper action sequences: Frank Miller and Alan Davis and I don't think even they can crank out a dozen pages dedicated to a fight scene.

>>95081231
>The panels don't even connect logically

Are you reading this in western order?
let me sum it up for you:

1st panel: goku flying towards vegeta,vegeta winds up a punch

2nd panel: the punch misses, goku flips away and heads towards the ground

3rd panel: goku kicks the ground fast, to change trajectory

4th panel: goku uses his new trajectory to knee vegeta on the back


seriously, man.

>>95081238
100.10/10 comic panel Nothing compares

>>95081231
>what the fucking shit? This page makes no sense at all. The panels don't even connect logically. each panel is a leap in time that doesn't connect one to the next. This is terrible

>"This is bad because I say it's bad and I'm going to pretend to be retarded"

You're not even trying.

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>>95081231
>This page makes no sense at all. The panels don't even connect logically. each panel is a leap in time that doesn't connect one to the next. This is terrible
Are you retarded or something?

>>95081231
>He doesn't know how to read a manga

Kek

Webcomicfag here. Would it be okay to post an 8-page action sequence of my own? I'm curious what you guys'd think of it.

>>95081309
sure

>>95081277
>>95081286
I know that, it still doesn't flow, at ALL. It's a bunch of disconnected frames that don't work well together. I know it's supposed to show off power levels and shit but is just silly

>>95081145
Looks like shitty 3d

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>>95081315
>I know it's supposed to show off power levels and shit

>>95081315
>I know it's supposed to show off power levels and shit but is just silly


doesn't flow?

how doesn't it flow?

every action is a direct consequence of the previous, it's not supposed to show power levels, it's supposed to convey movement.

>>95081315
Maybe you're autistic and have no sense of movement. Let me post the animated version. That particular panel happens at 2:14-2:18

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQu2s80vWLg

>>95081339
>wall-eyed

>>95079724
more over, you provide an example with speedlines up the ass.

Western comics come from a more draftsmen background. Rarely will you see western art with the entire form of an object in motion like that panel 1 Rat.

Coloring this is also a pita. not impossible. but traditional methods are not up to task.

>>95081333
It's cause every panel doesn't connect to the other. A good action scene should draw the eye through it. Every panel should direct your eye to the next panel through the movement. This DOES NOT DO THAT. It's disconnected

am I spoiled by Moon Knight?

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>>95081326
it is. Over the years, some artists have found the holy grail of phoning it in, Poser models. Now, using barely concealed 3D models to make your art is becoming more and more common.

>>95081362
>It's cause every panel doesn't connect to the other. A good action scene should draw the eye through it. Every panel should direct your eye to the next panel through the movement. This DOES NOT DO THAT. It's disconnected

Ok you clearly dont know how to read a manga.

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>>95081366
Jesus that looks bad

>>95081362
this is what I mean by how panel should draw the eye from one frame to the next
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErwykjaeyXE

>>95081362
I agree that the composition doesn't lead your eyes to the next panel you're supposed to leave. I think it was designed like that so you don't accidentally spoil what happens next.

>>95081362
You're supposed to read right to left, buddy.

>>95080211
>now it's filled with lazy action lines that are just...well fucking lazy. speed lines != action and yet that's all they rely upon these days.
Hey now that is mostly just shounen manga.

>>95081392
>Posts a 9 min video with someone explaining things for him

How about this? You post your favorite Moon Knight fight scene and explain why it appeals to you.

>>95079673
The faces in Luthor Strode turned me off it after one issue: shit's hideous.

>>95081052
Part of the problem is that superhero comics characters usually don`t "exercise" their powers because they usually are secondary to the story.
Superman usually just throw a simple punch (ok, with the strength of a locomotive but is implicit) he does not "reunites" all his strength for a few seconds accumulating it or concentrating to make a precise attack (sometimes is written), he takes something as heavy as a moon on his shoulders and is not shown the struggle in a few pages (is shown in a single box and written "he sustain the imposible pressure" etc) you no have a close up of his face and later how his shoulder take the colossal weight and later how he gets sinks under the ground and later how he stops descending screaming doing the impossible and how he takes the first step braking the ground and another and another to finally start to fly a few cm over the ground with this thing and later ascending into space throwing it away into and later falling semi unconscious throw the atmosphere with fire around him and finally crushing into some place generating a crater where people get around it and you first saw only his hand in the border of the crater and then he stands up with the people cheering around him...nop, you get a few words "Superman do what seemed imposible" and one page as much that may be suitable for the case but sometime it lose a lot of potential because you need to continue the story and do not spend 3 or 4 pages on "superman lift something very heavy". they do not exercise his powers

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>>95081359
Araki is definitely fond of his speed lines, but there are other artists who don't use them as much. I think it's a problem with imitation; basically, the new generation of mangakas grew up reading older works, and try to emulate them when they work on their own, but without the understanding of how to use something in a good way. That's my theory, at least.
As far as colouring goes, there is an official coloured version. It's done digitally, so I imagine that they never tried with traditional colouring.
SBR wasn't coloured too well, it's obvious that the artwork was made with B&W in mind.

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>>95081314
Well, nobody's posted against it so here goes.

Context: Longnose and Helmet were traveling though an enchanted forest with their dog, Blái, when they had an unfortunate roll on the random encounter table and got attacked by a shapeshifting lynx cat monster thing named Svarti.
They drove him off, but they didn't want to risk being attacked in their sleep, so they try to hunt him down.

Longnose just caught a rock to the head from off-panel.

1/8

Capeshit used to have a pretty good action drawing (hell, even JRJR used to draw good action scenes, see Nothing Can Stop The Juggernaut for example), but then something happened, probably what >>95079588 mentions. While with manga mist of creators go through the phase of being assistants to other mangakas thus learning basic principles of comic art "on the job".

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>>95079487
Batman and Robin Requiem and the Fantastic Four issue after Johnny dies comes to mind.

>>95081396
that's a shitty excuse, IMO at least. Shouldn't a page be drawn in order to tell the reader how to read it? Blah blah, yes left to right, I know that, but panel to panel should work in a way that it is self evident as well. A good artist doesn't just make a panel, but he composes the page so the reader follows the action

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>>95081436
2/8

>>95081452
> Blah blah, yes left to right

it's right to left

>>95081386
To be fair, that a particularly bad example. You wouldn't find someone defending the use of 3D models in Batman's current run (or in general). It's not that they can't be used, but it's a tool that should be used in a specific way.
Imagine, say, rotoscoping. If you use it how it's meant to be used, you get the Superman Fleischer shorts; if you use it badly, you get Aku No Hana.

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>>95081454
3/8

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>>95081468
4/8

>>95081465
the worst part about that example is that I actually like the idea of the page composition. It's just destroyed by those lifeless poser models, though.

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>>95081481
5/8

>>95079731
>back problems
So that's how they call Dragon Quest addiction these days.

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>>95081493

6/8

>Manga punch vs.Comic punch

It's no fucking contest. You dont even feel the power in Cap's punch.

>>95081436
>>95081454
this is bad, you have to make an effort to understand what is happening

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>>95081413
how about JH Willaims III? THe guy is a master. This spread draws your eye through multiple action scenes without you having to go through transitions. It's one smooth action scene and it conveys a fight that the protagonist knows what they are doing, these are obstetrical and can be handled in a known way.

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>>95081501
7/8

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>Manga punch vs.Comic punch

It's no contest. You dont even feel the power in Cap's punch.

>>95081463
oops...apparently dyslexia is another one of my flaws... fuck

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>>95081512
8/9 (how did I miscount that seven times in a row?)

>>95081283
>N-NANI?!
>he's fast...

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>>95081522

and 9/9

>>95081505
Could you be more specific? Any thoughts on how to fix it?

>>95081508
>A bunch of poses in a page again
there's no sense of movement or dynamics at all.

>>95081538
Are you so autistic that you need speed lines to show you movement?

>>95081512
I like it overall. I think the paneling is a bit too cluttered, though. It's understandable since this is a tense scene, but it makes a few pages a chore to read.

>>95081530
Are you saying this is bad?

>>95081430
yeah, like that coloring kills most of the motion.

p1. Focus is on the energy beam in color. Mistake. The black and white, the focus/clarity is on the IMPACT on the ground.
The rat is also colored with solid colors. the color needs to blur out into the speed lines just like the lineart does. the white blurs help a bit, but overall the rat is just too solid. BG color should bleed into the rat as well. so the rat doesnt appear solid.

p2. ground and wall color contrast is a huge mistake. its distracting. we shouldnt be looking at the BG at all. BG should probably be nearly white. so the FG figure pops out towards us.
rat shadow on the ground only color on the ground. Popping it out more, making it clear that rat is in the air.

p3. essentially same as previous two combined.

>>95079662
Bastien =/= Balak

>>95081283
>dude lmao speed lines lmao
>can we add more lmao
>lmao I will

>>95081538
What about the arc of the poses are laid in? I think laying panels in an arc clearly conveys movement, ala the arc of walking a step or taking a jump.

>>95081122
I'm partial to the one with the younger brother Denshiro his name was IIRC where he's trying to think of a way to strike and Musashi is calmly dissecting his strategies ever time he takes a stance.

>>95081238
I still tear up reading that shit

>>95081269
It requires a bit of context (both in general and the page immediately before that) I think

>>95081513
The Luffy punch makes a good comparison to the Iron Man punch in the OP. Both have a very strong sense of force.

>>95081569
t. SU cuck

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>>95079342
>In the manga Vagabond, there's a fight scene that last at least two chapters before any of the characters make a single move. And it WORKS.

To be fair this is how any important samurai fight should be in a manga. It was perfected by Goseki Kojima in Lone Wolf & Cub, which also has some of the best fight scenes in any manga, They're purposefully drawn out but don't feel like a drag and they're pretty cinematic looking.

>>95079487
Comics from Marvel's 'Nuff Said month.
G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero Vol. 1 #21
Deadpool Vol. 1 #42
Manhunter: The Final Chapter from Manhunter: Special Edition TPB

>>95079486
Not always, there are some that are pronted in colour from the beginning, see Furuya's Plastic Girl. Also why? Because it's cheaper to publish. There is a different comic reading culture in Japan than in USA. In Japan comics are for everyone and the magazine anthologies are disposable thing.

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>>95081502
>>95081513
Second try ,huh?

>>95081553
Thanks! I think I tried to squeeze in a few too many panels because I really wanted to fit in all my ideas and still have things happen in a reasonable number of pages. I'll have to make sure I kill my darlings a little more efficiently in the future.

>>95081596
Black and White has a purpose, and really most colour in western stuff is paint by numbers and is shit cause of that. But take Hickman's The Black Monday Murders and colour is extremely important to the storytelling. It frames the mood and the emotion behind the dialog. More colourists need to get behind this idea where colouring is just as important as the art.

On the other hand I love how Kabuki juxtaposes black and white stories with watercolour paintings. each is a distinct story but I couldn't read them with or without colour, both were intended as they were and work well that way

>>95081513
I don't think Peter feels it that much.

>>95081569

The use of speedlines here is actually quite masterful where its presence in the panels depict moments of rapid movement and its absence showing the brief pauses in the action.

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>>95079486
to be honest i have started perfering black and white thanks to manga.
Is there any black and why comics?

>>95081623
Honestly, the distance and angle of that panel has always made it feel more comical than hard-hitting to me.

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>>95079228
So basically manga is like movies, other type of comics are like documentaries

>>95081630
>More colourists need to get behind this idea where colouring is just as important as the art.

This, coloring needs to more beyond than just paint by numbers crap.

>>95081651
sin city

>>95081651
2000AD, one of the best publishers in the business. Sorry you had to ask here

>>95081651
Yeah

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>>95081653
No shit.

>>95081651
*white

>>95081655
So basically manga can be like good shit
Comics are ALWAYS like shit for virgin manchildren

especially Fable, Saga, Watchmen

>>95079818
>>95079831
>>95079843
Reminds me of City Hunter.

>>95081649
if half your page is speed lines its bad art. I'm not arguing that they aren't well done. Cause in this case they are very well done. But it's over used and relyed upon. Take away all the speed lines and you have really terrible paneling

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I liked this page, it's one of the better NuMahnke stuff out.

>>95081513
Something about onomatopoeia, you don't see them much anymore. I feel they do well to sell the impact of collisions. I liked it very much in Morrison's Batman run where they fought in an Art Museum and it was full of impact words seen in art pieces taking the place of actual ones.

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Surprised no one's brought up Masanori Morita as someone who draws excellent manga fights. His hits feel like they have impact and his action flows while still being really detailed. None of his fights are between super powered people, just teenagers punching and kicking the shit out of each other.

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>>95081651
Check out some of Negative Burn too. it's an anthology series but has some great work (my favorite work by Alan Moore is there) and some very unique stuff. Like Heavy metal not all will be good, but enough is good to read it

>>95081686

But you can't readily use speedlines in any panel. Proper use of speedlines require the artist to consider its application in the panel composition otherwise it's just another hallmark of a poor artist whether from the west or east.

>>95081630
That doesn't change reasons behind most mangas being black & white.

>>95081711
Incredible Hercules had fun onomatopoeia throughout.

>>95081799
agreed. Speedlines should be nearly invisible. You should blend them into backgrounds or detritus to make them the most effective. When Speed lines are just filler for the rest of the panel they lose their impact and just come off lazy.

>>95081188
Goddamn Vinland Saga. It went down the shitter so hard after the first story arc was done. This new ship-traveling bullcrap is just outright dull.

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I've been talking shit about speed lines all thread but this is an example of it done well. Orc Stain not only uses speed lines but it uses speech bubble and sound effects to signal movement. Shit is great

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>>95081919
just feel like posting more Orc Stain now, cause it's so fucking good

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>>95081946

>>95081919
>this is an example of it done well
no

>>95081946
stop it
it's so fucking shit

>>95081955
>not loving Orc Stain
fucking plebs

>>95081974
>loving Orc Stain
>fucking plebs

>>95081980
I don't know where I am anymore....

>>95079077
McNiven is great artist, but his work does look extremely static. Comparing him to the master of action manga is a bit of cherry picking.

>>95081851

There's no rule that speedlines should be discrete. Speedlines can easily be the focus if it lends to the dynamic and impact of a panel or sequence.

>>95082000
don't worry. puberty is just a phase.

Black and white art tends to be better for conveying motion and making action scenes feel, well, more like action scenes.
This isn't even an East thing exclusively, I'm reading Rogue Trooper and it has some good kinetic energy. And SCUD has really good action that's partly because of how the black, greys, and whites stand out from each other.